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View Full Version : Salary Absorbing Trades...



Wylder1324
07-18-2011, 10:21 PM
So most of the posting lately that I've seen has been centered around possible free agent signings…..lets take a look at the other possibility that our new found salary shed allows us to do….make trades where we absorb contracts and acquire assets. The only reason I don't say straight up player for player swaps is that we don't really have the assets that we seem to want to part with to do straight up trades……the only players that appear to be on the block are Rush, Jones, Price, and Posey (expiring) and maybe a sign and trade with Foster to a contender (although I would like to see him stay here to continue to mentor the young guys and be an enforcer in the playoffs) So I guess from here I would like to see some ideas of players we should targer with this in mind that may not fit in their current team, but could flourish here ?

joew8302
07-18-2011, 10:37 PM
Sure, if it fits sign me up.

That said, there are usually reasons teams want to give up these players with large salaries. I mean if the given player was earning his money he wouldn't be on the market in the first place..

Strummer
07-18-2011, 10:39 PM
The kind of "asset" I'd prefer to acquire in this sort of trade is a 2012 first round pick. I'd be more than willing to spend some of Herb Simon's money on a bad contract if it meant receiving a first round pick in a deep draft.

Wylder1324
07-18-2011, 10:43 PM
The asset Im referring to isn't the contract they want to move (although I do think in many situations those can work out well in cases too) but the other players they are willing to throw in to move the contract so that they can move into a new direction.

jeffg-body
07-18-2011, 11:46 PM
Atlanta seems like it would be a good trading partner if we could somehow pull of getting Smith without losing any of our core players.

oz_pacer
07-19-2011, 02:27 AM
I wouldn't mind absorbing Tyrus Thomas' contract he would be a great fit here mj has done crazier things and he's always looking to shed the payroll

CableKC
07-19-2011, 04:02 AM
I wouldn't mind absorbing Tyrus Thomas' contract he would be a great fit here mj has done crazier things and he's always looking to shed the payroll
With MJs inability to complete any trade and tendency to pull out at the last second faster than a male pornstar, I'd be hesitant to even discuss any deal with the Bobcats.

Anthem
07-19-2011, 07:52 AM
What about players that could be valid targets on their own, who could be traded for (in part, at least) cap relief?

I'm thinking about Paul Millsap, here.

vnzla81
07-19-2011, 08:18 AM
Al Jefferson could be one of those guys.

Speed
07-19-2011, 08:21 AM
What about players that could be valid targets on their own, who could be traded for (in part, at least) cap relief?

I'm thinking about Paul Millsap, here.

According to Shamsports.com, Utah has these frontline guys for next year

Al Jefferson - 2 yrs - 29 million (26 year old)
18.6 pts, 9.7 rbs, 1.9 blks, .496%, 82 games

Mehmet Okur - 1 yr - 10.9 (expiring) (32 yrs old)
4.9 pts, 2.3 rbs, 13 games

Paul Milsap - 2 yrs - 16.7 (26 yrs old)
17.3 pts, 7.6 rbs, 2.5 assists, .531%, .391% 3s, 76 games

Derrick Favors - 4 yrs - 15 million (rookie deal) (20 yrs old) 6.8 pts, 5.3 rbs, .517%, 78 games-19.7 mins

Enes Kanter (rookie deal) (19 yrs old)

37.4 million, not counting Kanter, tied up in their big men next year. So at least $40 million, ya, I'd guess they need to make a move. This is the same team that had to give up Maynor to move a bad contract to OKC. I'd say this is a match for this scenario.

Lou Bega
07-19-2011, 09:20 AM
What young player would Utah move?

G-Smoothe Butlers own. No way not after what he did to the Lakers in a game late last season.

Favors- I am not sure, I am not even a fan of his game @ all.

A B- No way, they just drafted him

That leaves

Jeremy Evans (WKU) & Fesenko (int big man)

I do not know much about either one of their games. Fesenko has been in the league 3 years.

Of Jefferson, Milsap, Favors, Okur.

Pacers have no need for Okur that is just a trade for the sake of trading. Favors is on a rookie deal. I say no way. They gave up superstar D Will for him and will keep him around.

Milsap/Jefferson

Is Jefferson for Granger relived ie Ronnie for Peja?

What players do we have to attract Utah Roy Hibbert would have to be involved for Jefferson if Granger is denied. Think like a Utah GM.

Do you pull the trigger if Roy is involved. It is a very complex process. I do not see the Pacers trading w/ Utah.

The Jackson shimmy
07-19-2011, 09:54 AM
I presume that I'm probably in a distinct minority on PD
on this one, but depending on whom all on the P's roster
is heading West in return, I'd swallow Jefferson's deal to
get Favors without hesitation.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 10:19 AM
I presume that I'm probably in a distinct minority on PD
on this one, but depending on whom all on the P's roster
is heading West in return, I'd swallow Jefferson's deal to
get Favors without hesitation.

:lol:


really you think Utah would do that?

I would do that before i could even say yes! That deal would be robbery we would get an all star caliber C/PF and a really great defensive big prospect(which is what we need).

Utah isn't trading Favors and Jefferson's contract isn't bad it is actually positive value i mean he is a 20/10/2 guy. No way in hell Utah does that those they really coveted Favors and gave up a lot to get him. I would take on Jefferson just because he is a 20/10/2 guy and commands a double team in the post. Everyone says the defense would suck ya probably but who could stop Hibbert and AL up front together? What they do on offense trumps defense if we are gonna play smash mouth basketball Al is the perfect fit for that style IMO.

The beauty of Al is on offense he is versatile he could play high post just as well as low post. But his low post skills are un real.

ballism
07-19-2011, 10:22 AM
I'd swallow Noah's deal to get Rose.
Yes, lets do that one.

ksuttonjr76
07-19-2011, 10:51 AM
The kind of "asset" I'd prefer to acquire in this sort of trade is a 2012 first round pick. I'd be more than willing to spend some of Herb Simon's money on a bad contract if it meant receiving a first round pick in a deep draft.

***** the Draft....the rebuilding process is done, and we're in win mode now.

OakMoses
07-19-2011, 11:03 AM
I love the idea that we're willing to take on Jefferson's contract. Utah is not going to just give him away. If Bird called them up and offered AJ Price and either Jones or Rush for Big Al he'd get laughed off the phone. If we want Jefferson or Millsap we're going to have to give up something to get them. If that's a first round pick and some fringe guys, it's a great deal for either one.

I worry about playing Jefferson and Hibbert together, but, if you think about it, it's probably not too much worse defensively than playing Gasol and Randolph together. That worked out pretty well.

Gamble1
07-19-2011, 11:08 AM
So most of the posting lately that I've seen has been centered around possible free agent signings…..lets take a look at the other possibility that our new found salary shed allows us to do….make trades where we absorb contracts and acquire assets. The only reason I don't say straight up player for player swaps is that we don't really have the assets that we seem to want to part with to do straight up trades……the only players that appear to be on the block are Rush, Jones, Price, and Posey (expiring) and maybe a sign and trade with Foster to a contender (although I would like to see him stay here to continue to mentor the young guys and be an enforcer in the playoffs) So I guess from here I would like to see some ideas of players we should targer with this in mind that may not fit in their current team, but could flourish here ?
I was thinking about this yesterday as well but I think the real problem will be that the new CBA will make it a prolong transition period and there goes our advantage if thats the case. This is especially true if there will be no LT during that transition period.

There are two ways that I could see a trade being done. One is a purely salary dump asset and the other is a terrible contract attached to an asset player/2012 draft pick.

Guys I thought of would be Odom but he wouldn't resign after his contract is up so whats the real point in making a trade for him. He would also cost a lot to acquire.

The second guys are terrible contracts but I wouldn't mind a 2012 draft pick in return. Some of you guys are going to laugh but Al Harrington for the Nuggets 2012 draft pick. Signed for 4 more years but we could waive him after the second or take the salary hit and cut him loose after the 2013/14. Maybe make it Al and Chris Anderson and a first for a poo poo plater IDK.

I would love to get the Wizards 2012 pick which has to be a lotto. To do this I think we would have to take Rashard Lewis contract and give up maybe Posey and Rush. They would want to swap picks but I would take that lotto pick in a heart beat.

Toronto pick will be pretty high as well but there are less deals to be made with them (Barbosa).

The Bobcats might be another trade partner (diop, Diaw).

I would like to take Sullinger if he is there in 2012 with one of these deals for a 2012 draft pick swap.

OakMoses
07-19-2011, 11:09 AM
I wonder if we could turn one of Price/Rush/Jones into Z. Pachulia. Atlanta has $62 million committed to just 8 players. $5 million is due to Pachulia next year. They might be willing to save a few million while getting a cheap rotation player. We'd get a pretty damn good backup center.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 11:10 AM
***** the Draft....the rebuilding process is done, and we're in win mode now.

lol at that realistically we are still a few good years away from being in "win now" mode

Kemo
07-19-2011, 11:17 AM
I'd swallow Jefferson's deal to
get Favors without hesitation.


LMAO .. I am sorry , but that is a "TWSS" if I've ever heard one ... lol

:twss:

Speed
07-19-2011, 11:38 AM
lol at that realistically we are still a few good years away from being in "win now" mode

I don't think its necessarily "win now" mode, but I do think its 'develop now' mode. This has alot of the same ramifications as trying to win now.

I don't think its realistic to think you can compete for a championship, if thats what 'win now' means. I do think if it means making the playoffs and being competitive with key elements of your roster developing, then ya 'win now'.

vnzla81
07-19-2011, 12:11 PM
I'd swallow Noah's deal to get Rose.
Yes, lets do that one.

Now this is what I call a real Pacers fan, way to take one for the team ballism :D


http://www.youthink.com/quiz_images/quiz1579outcome4.jpg

ballism
07-19-2011, 12:12 PM
I wouldn't take Ron Ron or Hedo to get a late 1st rounder.
But I'd certainly take Thabeet to get a 1st like Houston did this year....
I'd take Jermaine's one year for a late 1st rounder....
I'd take Josh Childress for a Suns' 1st...
There are cap-for-pick deals that I'd make.

I think it's still very smart for us to think in terms of assets. We still have ways to go. It doesn't really matter how we get there. We are bit like Boston before KG. We need to be flexible right now and keep adding.
If there's a good value draft pick, got to take it.

thefeistyone
07-19-2011, 12:13 PM
It's certainly hard to get something for nothing. The platter of Rush/Jones/Jones/Posey isn't going to get many GM's running to the phone.

That being said I still think the Granger for Jefferson trade makes at least a little sense. I would hate to let go of Granger, but most on here think we already have his replacement on our roster. I like that Jefferson is a 20-10 guy that can play the 4 and the 5. I love the rotation of Hibbert/Jefferson/Hans in the front court.

I'm not saying I'm 100% certain I would support the trade, but i would think long and hard about it.

Speed
07-19-2011, 12:25 PM
Al Jefferson number wise looks like an allstar, how bad is his defense? I just don't know, it has to be the thing that has him devalued so much. Or maybe he's not devalued, but you'd have to wonder why you attain Favors and draft Kanter, if Al Jefferson is a cornerstone of a franchise as his numbers would lead you to believe.

I have to say, when I've seen him play his defense isn't great, but honestly its not much worse than other front court players throughout the league.

Maybe you have to surround him with good defenders to be a winning formula, I really don't know.

I'd love to hear a Jazz fans take on it.

Edit: Thinking about his defense from my experience watching him. He doesn't seem any worse than Amare Stoudamire, Elton Brand, Pau Gasol (both get weak side blocks), Zach Randolph, Dirk... I'm listing some good players here (minus todays Brand), but doing so intentionally, since his offensive numbers are high caliber... just like this group.

Is he a headache, bad teammate, selfish that I haven't heard about? Why didn't Utah win last season, is maybe another question to ask.

Its starting to puzzle me, since he's an elite low post player offensively and would make a low post based offense thrive, like Vogel is wanting to do.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Al Jefferson number wise looks like an allstar, how bad is his defense? I just don't know, it has to be the thing that has him devalued so much. Or maybe he's not devalued, but you'd have to wonder why you attain Favors and draft Kanter, if Al Jefferson is a cornerstone of a franchise as his numbers would lead you to believe.

I have to say, when I've seen him play his defense isn't great, but honestly its not much worse than other front court players throughout the league.

Maybe you have to surround him with good defenders to be a winning formula, I really don't know.

I'd love to hear a Jazz fans take on it.

Utah always drafts best player available and you can never have to many bigs in the NBA. Most teams that win the title have good bigs. I mean look at the Lakers front court.

Speed
07-19-2011, 12:34 PM
Utah always drafts best player available and you can never have to many bigs in the NBA. Most teams that win the title have good bigs. I mean look at the Lakers front court.

Makes me wonder how available he is, if at all, then.

Side question: I wonder if GMs are even talking trade during the lockout? It might make more since to wait and see what financial structure they are working under first, I guess.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 12:39 PM
Al Jefferson number wise looks like an allstar, how bad is his defense? I just don't know, it has to be the thing that has him devalued so much. Or maybe he's not devalued, but you'd have to wonder why you attain Favors and draft Kanter, if Al Jefferson is a cornerstone of a franchise as his numbers would lead you to believe.

I have to say, when I've seen him play his defense isn't great, but honestly its not much worse than other front court players throughout the league.

Maybe you have to surround him with good defenders to be a winning formula, I really don't know.

I'd love to hear a Jazz fans take on it.

Edit: Thinking about his defense from my experience watching him. He doesn't seem any worse than Amare Stoudamire, Elton Brand, Pau Gasol (both get weak side blocks), Zach Randolph, Dirk... I'm listing some good players here (minus todays Brand), but doing so intentionally, since his offensive numbers are high caliber... just like this group.

Is he a headache, bad teammate, selfish that I haven't heard about? Why didn't Utah win last season, is maybe another question to ask.

Its starting to puzzle me, since he's an elite low post player offensively and would make a low post based offense thrive, like Vogel is wanting to do.

where do you get Pau Gasol is a bad defender? IMO he is a very very good defender but that's just my opinion. He doesn't do it with athletic ability just always in good position defensively IMO


On Jefferson defense it should get better as his knee gets back to 100% but it will never be more than average. But defense doesnt matter to an extent when you have the gifts he does. Like the saying goes defense doesnt fill the seats. People come to see offense.

Gamble1
07-19-2011, 12:47 PM
Al Jefferson number wise looks like an allstar, how bad is his defense? I just don't know, it has to be the thing that has him devalued so much. Or maybe he's not devalued, but you'd have to wonder why you attain Favors and draft Kanter, if Al Jefferson is a cornerstone of a franchise as his numbers would lead you to believe.

I have to say, when I've seen him play his defense isn't great, but honestly its not much worse than other front court players throughout the league.

Maybe you have to surround him with good defenders to be a winning formula, I really don't know.

I'd love to hear a Jazz fans take on it.
Edit: Thinking about his defense from my experience watching him. He doesn't seem any worse than Amare Stoudamire, Elton Brand, Pau Gasol (both get weak side blocks), Zach Randolph, Dirk... I'm listing some good players here (minus todays Brand), but doing so intentionally, since his offensive numbers are high caliber... just like this group.

Is he a headache, bad teammate, selfish that I haven't heard about? Why didn't Utah win last season, is maybe another question to ask.

Its starting to puzzle me, since he's an elite low post player offensively and would make a low post based offense thrive, like Vogel is wanting to do.

I think the only deal I would do is Hibbert for Al. I wouldn't do a Granger trade for him at all. Would the Jazz want Hibbert after they got Kanter? Probably not but I think Al funtions a lot better at the center position now. He would have to drop weight in a hurry to play along side Hibbert.

Utah didn't win last year because they lost HOF coach and all star pg. There is only so much a franchise can take in one year.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 12:55 PM
I think the only deal I would do is Hibbert for Al. I wouldn't do a Granger trade for him at all. Would the Jazz want Hibbert after they got Kanter? Probably not but I think Al funtions a lot better at the center position now. He would have to drop weight in a hurry to play along side Hibbert.

Utah didn't win last year because they lost HOF coach and all star pg. There is only so much a franchise can take in one year.

Al can play the 4 offensively

and the trade we are talking about is pretty much the trade Utah did to get him just cap room and a few assets. Pretty much buy low i doubt Utah does it. But no way we trade Roy for Al unless Hibbert wants a crazy contract.

Speed
07-19-2011, 12:56 PM
where do you get Pau Gasol is a bad defender? IMO he is a very very good defender but that's just my opinion. He doesn't do it with athletic ability just always in good position defensively IMO


On Jefferson defense it should get better as his knee gets back to 100% but it will never be more than average. But defense doesnt matter to an extent when you have the gifts he does. Like the saying goes defense doesnt fill the seats. People come to see offense.

Well Pau has his match up problems, like all players do. His brother killed him, as well as Dirk. Who doesn't Dirk kill, though. Particularly this year I think he struggled compared to his baseline. He's still a great weak side shot blocker, but so is Al Jeff. Even taking Pau out of the equation, my point was, Al Jeff isn't epically bad by any measure, I don't think.

They have another saying about defense too.... but I get your point though and I'd agree to a point, that the other stuff he does is elite and counter balances some of those short-comings. Although, I'm a defensphile, so I probably don't really believe that either. :)

Speed
07-19-2011, 01:00 PM
Two ways I'd do it, trade Hibbert for Al Jeff, if you can sign Tyson Chander or a defensive standout center. Or as a salary relief deal to put Al Jeff with Roy. The First one, not likely, you'd have around 25 million in Chandler Al Jeff front court, but man they would be good together, imo. I wouldn't do Danny for him, unless Paul George comes out and average 20 a game the first two months of the season.

OakMoses
07-19-2011, 01:21 PM
The problem is that we really don't know what Utah is trying to do. I'm guessing they're trying to pull a Donnie Walsh "rebuild on the fly", but you never know. Favors and Kanter are great assets, but they're both 2-3 years away from contributing big-time on a contender. Millsap, Jefferson, and Harris are all good players, but with those three as your core you'll have a winning record and a first round playoff loss every year. Plus Jefferson and Millsap are going to eat all the developmental minutes you want to give to Favors and Kanter. It's an interesting situation.

All that said, I think either Millsap or Jefferson will be moved this next season. However, I don't think either of them will come cheap. One thing that Utah probably doesn't want to do is to pay Raja Bell $6.7 million over the next 2 seasons.

Also, if we trade Granger during the offseason, we need to be prepared to make another move for a wing: either signing someone like Richardson or Crawford or making a trade. We're stocked at the wing position, but we don't have nearly the talent available to make up for the loss of Granger.

Gamble1
07-19-2011, 01:32 PM
Al can play the 4 offensively

and the trade we are talking about is pretty much the trade Utah did to get him just cap room and a few assets. Pretty much buy low i doubt Utah does it. But no way we trade Roy for Al unless Hibbert wants a crazy contract.
It was cap room but wasn't it also 3 first round picks when you include Koufos. Thats not a sweet heart deal IMO. I think the likely trade piece they have is Milsap.

CableKC
07-19-2011, 02:28 PM
The problem is that we really don't know what Utah is trying to do. I'm guessing they're trying to pull a Donnie Walsh "rebuild on the fly", but you never know. Favors and Kanter are great assets, but they're both 2-3 years away from contributing big-time on a contender. Millsap, Jefferson, and Harris are all good players, but with those three as your core you'll have a winning record and a first round playoff loss every year. Plus Jefferson and Millsap are going to eat all the developmental minutes you want to give to Favors and Kanter. It's an interesting situation.

All that said, I think either Millsap or Jefferson will be moved this next season. However, I don't think either of them will come cheap. One thing that Utah probably doesn't want to do is to pay Raja Bell $6.7 million over the next 2 seasons.

Also, if we trade Granger during the offseason, we need to be prepared to make another move for a wing: either signing someone like Richardson or Crawford or making a trade. We're stocked at the wing position, but we don't have nearly the talent available to make up for the loss of Granger.
If the opportunity was there.....I'd consider doing a straight up swap of Granger for AlJeff ( not Milsap ) would fill a definite need ( getting a PF/C that can rebound, block shots and defend the paint ) and then look for a reliable 2nd option scorer like JRich ( sorry, not JCrawford ) via Free Agency while re-signing Foster. Talentwise....a Granger for AlJeff move would be an even swap that could make sense for both Teams....and then adding JRich would make up for some scoring loss.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 02:29 PM
It was cap room but wasn't it also 3 first round picks when you include Koufos. Thats not a sweet heart deal IMO. I think the likely trade piece they have is Milsap.

Koufos doesn't count as a 1st round pick he had already busted. I would gladly give up 2 1st round picks for an all star caliber player.

OakMoses
07-19-2011, 02:35 PM
Koufos doesn't count as a 1st round pick he had already busted. I would gladly give up 2 1st round picks for an all star caliber player.

Yeah. If we could grab Jefferson for one of Jones/Rush/Price and 2 future firsts, I'd be very happy. It would nearly ensure that they'd be late first round picks also.

ballism
07-19-2011, 02:35 PM
I would not do a Jefferson for Granger trade. Even if Al had no serious injuries, I just don't like the style and how he fits here. With injury, it's a no brainer to me. I also think in a vacuum, Granger is the better player.

CableKC
07-19-2011, 02:38 PM
Yeah. If we could grab Jefferson for one of Jones/Rush/Price and 2 future firsts, I'd be very happy. It would nearly ensure that they'd be late first round picks also.
I could see getting Milsap for an offer of multiple 1st round picks and what amounts to filler ( which isn't bad when it comes to overall value for a trade given his production and his cost....but not the type of PF that I am looking for )....but not for AlJeff ( who is the Big Man that I would prefer over the two ). I'm thinking that AlJeff would come at a hefty price....18ppg/9rpg/1.9bpg type Players don't come cheap nor grow on trees.

troyc11a
07-19-2011, 02:40 PM
where do you get Pau Gasol is a bad defender? IMO he is a very very good defender but that's just my opinion. He doesn't do it with athletic ability just always in good position defensively IMO


On Jefferson defense it should get better as his knee gets back to 100% but it will never be more than average. But defense doesnt matter to an extent when you have the gifts he does. Like the saying goes defense doesnt fill the seats. People come to see offense.

If Pau Gasol is available then he is the big this team should target (as long as B. Shaw is on board with it).
He is the best PF I have heard yet on here. He gives you around 19 pts, 11 boards and almost 2 blocks a game. Plus he can play Center as well.
And something like being a two time world champion doesnt exactly stink either. But, some on here would rank flash ahead of championships. Not me!

ksuttonjr76
07-19-2011, 03:03 PM
I don't think its necessarily "win now" mode, but I do think its 'develop now' mode. This has alot of the same ramifications as trying to win now.

I don't think its realistic to think you can compete for a championship, if thats what 'win now' means. I do think if it means making the playoffs and being competitive with key elements of your roster developing, then ya 'win now'.

My thoughts exactly! Only a fool would believe that we're contending for a championship within the next two years.

Personally, I'm against any trades the includes Granger unless it a no-brainer (aka we get Melo, James, Wade, etc.). I still like the potential of having one of the better and longer 2/3 defensive combos in the league. If Hill and Hibbert improve their defensive approach to the game, then Indiana should be one of the better defensive teams in the league.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 03:06 PM
That would be a huge gamble on Al Jeff, every team he has been on has gotten worse once he arrives.

CableKC
07-19-2011, 03:09 PM
That would be a huge gamble on Al Jeff, every team he has been on has gotten worse once he arrives.
For further clarification on this....would you care to expand on this?

Speed
07-19-2011, 03:13 PM
For further clarification on this....would you care to expand on this?

Right, thats my whole question is why does this happen?

xBulletproof
07-19-2011, 03:16 PM
Right, thats my whole question is why does this happen?

Well in Minnesota it could have something to do with the fact they lost Kevin Garnett in his prime. In Utah there was obviously some strange stuff going on. Sloan gone, D-Will gone.

Seems odd to dump that on Al Jefferson.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 03:28 PM
For further clarification on this....would you care to expand on this?

He has been one of the center pieces on 2 bottom feeder teams.
Minnesota got worse the year they got him and continually got worse, down to an embarrassing 15 wins his final year there.

Utah got worse this year as well, and honestly I thought Utah should have been a really good team last year before they traded Dwill.

He can't fit in with anyone. Couldn't fit next to Love, can't fix next to Milsap.
Pretty crazy considering he is basically unstoppable in the low post. I'll give him that, but the fact that he has not had a positive effect on any team he has ever played for.....I pass.

Heisenberg
07-19-2011, 03:33 PM
If Pau Gasol is available then he is the big this team should target (as long as B. Shaw is on board with it).
He is the best PF I have heard yet on here. He gives you around 19 pts, 11 boards and almost 2 blocks a game. Plus he can play Center as well.
And something like being a two time world champion doesnt exactly stink either. But, some on here would rank flash ahead of championships. Not me!
Pau's 31 and has 3 years and ~57 million left on his contract. No thanks.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 03:38 PM
Well in Minnesota it could have something to do with the fact they lost Kevin Garnett in his prime. In Utah there was obviously some strange stuff going on. Sloan gone, D-Will gone.

Seems odd to dump that on Al Jefferson.

Hold on there, losing Kevin Garnett had nothing to do with it, they were a terrible 32 win team with Garnett the previous year, and he average 22/12 and Jefferson average 21/11 in this the next year for Minnesota.

Utah had far to many good players at the beginning of last year to nose dive so fast, Jefferson just couldn't fit in.

xBulletproof
07-19-2011, 03:46 PM
Hold on there, losing Kevin Garnett had nothing to do with it, they were a terrible 32 win team with Garnett the previous year, and he average 22/12 and Jefferson average 21/11 in this the next year for Minnesota.

Utah had far to many good players at the beginning of last year to nose dive so fast, Jefferson just couldn't fit in.

:laugh:

So a 23 year old kid getting his first shot at being the man should be able to carry a team as well as a 30 year old who's one of the best to ever play his position? That should be a wash? Really? I don't care what their record was with KG. You said they got worse. Losing KG and adding Al will cause that.

This reeks of picking your side of something and defending it at all costs, because it makes no sense what so ever.

ballism
07-19-2011, 03:52 PM
Hold on there, losing Kevin Garnett had nothing to do with it, they were a terrible 32 win team with Garnett the previous year, and he average 22/12 and Jefferson average 21/11 in this the next year for Minnesota.


You can't say Al Jefferson sucks and Al Jefferson is adequate replacement for KG at the same time. That makes no sense.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 03:54 PM
:laugh:

So a 23 year old kid getting his first shot at being the man should be able to carry a team as well as a 30 year old who's one of the best to ever play his position? That should be a wash? Really? I don't care what their record was with KG. You said they got worse. Losing KG and adding Al will cause that.

This reeks of picking your side of something and defending it at all costs, because it makes no sense what so ever.

Whatever dude, KG wasn't carrying Minnesota anywhere but down as well. KG's last couple years in Minnesota looked like he didn't even care.

But lets just say okay you have a valid point. Then why couldn't Jefferson get it together over the next 3-4 seasons and atleast get his team to be respectable. 15 wins. I mean he was the man right? One of the most dominate PF in the league....

xBulletproof
07-19-2011, 03:57 PM
Whatever dude, KG wasn't carrying Minnesota anywhere but down as well. KG's last couple years in Minnesota looked like he didn't even care.

But lets just say okay you have a valid point. Then why couldn't Jefferson get it together over the next 3-4 seasons and atleast get his team to be respectable. 15 wins. I mean he was the man right? One of the most dominate PF in the league....

I dunno .... maybe because this isn't Tennis, or Golf. It's a team game.

Why can't people comprehend that? For Christs sakes the other players who got starts on the team were Marko Jaric, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Craig Smith, Kirk Snyder, Randy Foye and Corey Brewer.

Jordan couldn't carry that group of losers.

CableKC
07-19-2011, 03:58 PM
Utah had far to many good players at the beginning of last year to nose dive so fast, Jefferson just couldn't fit in.
Losing one of the top 5 PGs in the League and then THE Coach that has defined EVERYTHING that the Jazz has done for the last couple decade had very little to do with the losing and mostly everything that had to do with AlJeff joining the Team?

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:00 PM
Losing one of the top 5 PGs in the League and then THE Coach that has defined EVERYTHING that the Jazz has done for the last couple decade had very little to do with the losing and mostly everything that had to do with AlJeff joining the Team?

They were nose diving way before all that happened. Utah started the season terribly.

vnzla81
07-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Well in Minnesota it could have something to do with the fact they lost Kevin Garnett in his prime. In Utah there was obviously some strange stuff going on. Sloan gone, D-Will gone.

Seems odd to dump that on Al Jefferson.

Don't forget that Utah also added Hayward ;)

xBulletproof
07-19-2011, 04:07 PM
Don't forget that Utah also added Hayward ;)

Yep every team he's been drafted to gets worse! :D

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:12 PM
Yep every team he's been drafted to gets worse! :D

Hayward couldn't get any shots because AL Jeff was taking them all. Plus he was a rookie, its not like he has ever had the green light in the NBA like Al Jefferson has had since his 3rd year in the league.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:13 PM
They were nose diving way before all that happened. Utah started the season terribly.

actually Utah started the season great and won a ton of close games they fell apart after the trade. They were still above 500 prior to the trade but were in a slump. If they kept Dwill they would of likely made the playoffs


http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/utah/seasontype/2/utah-jazz

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:14 PM
Hayward couldn't get any shots because AL Jeff was taking them all.

Hayward couldn't get any shots because he isn't assertive or very good. Al may be a bit of a black hole but Al deserves the shots and makes them and Gordon does not it is just that simple.

Gamble1
07-19-2011, 04:16 PM
They were nose diving way before all that happened. Utah started the season terribly.
Just stop it.

They were 27-10 in mid Jan..... They had a rough 14 game stretch and went 4-10 making their record 31-23 then Sloan retires after the loss to the Bulls. After 13 days they lose Dwill.

I guess Al was the reason Sloan retired and the Jazz sucked from October on..

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:22 PM
I watched a lot of Utah last year and they looked like a team who could go deep into the playoffs. But then Dwill had to go all Diva on the team and thats when they went down hill.

Gamble1
07-19-2011, 04:23 PM
Koufos doesn't count as a 1st round pick he had already busted. I would gladly give up 2 1st round picks for an all star caliber player.
Koufos busted after 2 years. Geesshh I hope Paul George has a good season this year.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:25 PM
Just stop it.

They were 27-10 in mid Jan..... They had a rough 14 game stretch and went 4-10 making their record 31-23 then Sloan retires after the loss to the Bulls. After 13 days they lose Dwill.

I guess Al was the reason Sloan retired and the Jazz sucked from October on..

Okay I stand corrected on starting the season terribly. So going 4-10 isn't a nose dive? I guess we have difference in opinion on that.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:28 PM
Koufos busted after 2 years. Geesshh I hope Paul George has a good season this year.

have u seen Koufos play? He is a bum and isnt very good all he is is a big body. I mean Paul can at least play defense and shows signs Koufos wasnt even good in college.

troyc11a
07-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Pau's 31 and has 3 years and ~57 million left on his contract. No thanks.

With all that cap space, the last thing we want to do is bring in here a player with a World Championship pedigree and who is better than anyone we have. Not to mention the fact he just "happens" to play the position everyone wants to upgrade. Yea- I dont see a fit here either. 8th place in the East is good enough.

O'Braindead
07-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Yet another good thread robbed by graphic-er of which there are pages of pointless banter after his point is proved wrong. Yet he is too stubborn to just say, "Yeah, I'm wrong."

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:34 PM
Hayward couldn't get any shots because he isn't assertive or very good. Al may be a bit of a black hole but Al deserves the shots and makes them and Gordon does not it is just that simple.

Had nothing to do with being a rookie?

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:35 PM
Yet another good thread robbed by graphic-er of which there are pages of pointless banter after his point is proved wrong. Yet he is too stubborn to just say, "Yeah, I'm wrong."

I said I stand corrected on Utah starting the season terribly. WTF Troll.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:37 PM
Had nothing to do with being a rookie?

wait u said it was due to al which one is it:laugh:?


still i remember watching this game live I couldn't stop laughing.......one of my favorite moments of the season and was the start of the demise of the Jazz....

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/urE_fCp7e5s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

vnzla81
07-19-2011, 04:39 PM
Utah started playing bad as soon as the coach decided to make Hayward the starter, coincidence? I dont think so.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:40 PM
Hayward couldn't get any shots because AL Jeff was taking them all. Plus he was a rookie, its not like he has ever had the green light in the NBA like Al Jefferson has had since his 3rd year in the league.


wait u said it was due to al which one is it:laugh:?


Go back and read kid.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:42 PM
Utah started playing bad as soon as the coach decided to make Hayward the starter, coincidence? I dont think so.

Dwill certainly didn't like him and maybe he had the Lance effect on the Jazz lol. The vets weren't happy Hayward ruined the chemistry:laugh:

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:44 PM
still i remember watching this game live I couldn't stop laughing.......one of my favorite moments of the season and was the start of the demise of the Jazz....

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/urE_fCp7e5s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I watched it live too, DWill is an idiot. He should have shut his mouth after Hayward had that nice score there.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:44 PM
Go back and read kid.

well i watched Hayward and the Jazz and Al Jefferson wasn't the reason he sucked at all.

Since86
07-19-2011, 04:48 PM
wait u said it was due to al which one is it:laugh:?


still i remember watching this game live I couldn't stop laughing.......one of my favorite moments of the season and was the start of the demise of the Jazz....

<IFRAME src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/urE_fCp7e5s" frameBorder=0 width=425 height=349 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

I'm sorry, but how does that prove Gordon isn't any good? He was a rookie, he made a mistake, and not even a "bad" one at that. He missed a cut, big freaking whoop. If you'd like I can post 5 videos of PG missing an assignment or a cut. I can find videos of Reggie missing an assignment or a cut as well.


And the start of the demise of the Jazz? Do you notice that it says "premiere week" on the TNT logo? It was an Oct 28th game, you know, their SECOND game of the season.

And no, I'm not claiming Haywood is going to turn into even a rotation player. I'm saying there is no reason to post the video, other than just wanting to post it.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:48 PM
well i watched Hayward and the Jazz and Al Jefferson wasn't the reason he sucked at all.

I never said it was! I just said he didn't get alot of shots when he was on the floor, its the same as saying he was the 5th option!

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:53 PM
I'm sorry, but how does that prove Gordon isn't any good? He was a rookie, he made a mistake, and not even a "bad" one at that. He missed a cut, big freaking whoop. If you'd like I can post 5 videos of PG missing an assignment or a cut. I can find videos of Reggie missing an assignment or a cut as well.


And the start of the demise of the Jazz? Do you notice that it says "premiere week" on the TNT logo? It was an Oct 28th game, you know, their SECOND game of the season.

And no, I'm not claiming Haywood is going to turn into even a rotation player. I'm saying there is no reason to post the video, other than just wanting to post it.

I guess i need to use green next time

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 04:56 PM
How did this turn into a Gordon Hayward thread? Oh yeah, a bunch of people not going by the name of Graphic-er bringing up Gordon Hayward!

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 04:58 PM
How did this turn into a Gordon Hayward thread? Oh yeah, a bunch of people not going by the name of Graphic-er bringing up Gordon Hayward!

well you said Al took all his shots so you brought him up actually

troyc11a
07-19-2011, 04:59 PM
This thread was getting really interesting until it got Gordoned!

Seriously, this is probably how the Pacers will get their next big piece. Posey and Rush are both expirings that could land a high priced and healthy player of significance. I would like to hear more about the possibilities of acquiring Al Jeff or Pau Gasol!

CableKC
07-19-2011, 05:00 PM
Why must every thread involving the Jazz and graphic-er devolve into this?

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 05:03 PM
well you said Al took all his shots so you brought him up actually
No go back and read kid, vnzla81 brought him up, and i also said Al Jeff took all the shots, not just pertaining to Hayward. You called Al Jeff a black Hole so you obviously agreed with that part of the statement.

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 05:06 PM
Why must every thread involving the Jazz and graphic-er devolve into this?

There are alot of Gordon Hayward haters on PD and they purposely bring him up in any discussion involving an opinion I have as a way to try and discredit me.

Gamble1
07-19-2011, 05:14 PM
Okay I stand corrected on starting the season terribly. So going 4-10 isn't a nose dive? I guess we have difference in opinion on that.
Did you look at the schedule?

Six of those losses were to playoff teams and they went on a 5 game road trip. They lost to the Spurs, OKC, Bulls, Lakers and Boston. It was a tough part in the schedule thats all it was and a lot of teams have bad stretches like that every year. It certainly wasn't because Al Jefferson wasn't playing hard.

Edit: I am just trying to take the shovel out of your hands.. ;)

CableKC
07-19-2011, 05:34 PM
This thread was getting really interesting until it got Gordoned!

Seriously, this is probably how the Pacers will get their next big piece. Posey and Rush are both expirings that could land a high priced and healthy player of significance. I would like to hear more about the possibilities of acquiring Al Jeff or Pau Gasol!
Players like Posey and BRush are irrelevant when it comes to the Pacers having this much Capspace. IF a Team is looking to move a difference maker like Gasol....they will want minimal $$$ coming back ( as in none..if possible ), prospects and ( at least one ) Draft picks.

CableKC
07-19-2011, 05:36 PM
There are alot of Gordon Hayward haters on PD and they purposely bring him up in any discussion involving an opinion I have as a way to try and discredit me.
I know...it just gets tiring.:rolleyes:

ensergio
07-19-2011, 05:51 PM
wait u said it was due to al which one is it:laugh:?


still i remember watching this game live I couldn't stop laughing.......one of my favorite moments of the season and was the start of the demise of the Jazz....

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/urE_fCp7e5s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't understand Deron's problem. Really, for me was a nice score.

ballism
07-19-2011, 06:10 PM
I don't understand Deron's problem. Really, for me was a nice score.

Deron clearly wanted him to sprint and cut between Josh Childress and Grant Hill into the paint there for an easy layup.
Instead, Hayward was soft or lazy or confused and was jogging behind Deron. He missed the moment and settled at the 3. By then Phoenix defense was set.

Keep in mind, Sloan isn't the most forgiving guy when it comes to mistakes. Even less forgiving to not playing hard. And eventually it sinks into all players. What I'm saying - the frustration by Deron is valid. The fact they scored later in that play doesn't change it.

There's no excuse for expressing your frustrations in the way Deron did though.

ksuttonjr76
07-19-2011, 07:25 PM
What a waste of a thread....

NapTonius Monk
07-19-2011, 07:45 PM
There are alot of Gordon Hayward haters on PD and they purposely bring him up in any discussion involving an opinion I have as a way to try and discredit me.

http://depetris.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/conspiracy.jpg

yoadknux
07-19-2011, 08:03 PM
I read some of the posts here and some of the trades here are unrealistic.
No one is going to move valuable players for pure cap relief. Utah won't just trade us Al Jefferson for free, Atlanta won't even trade us Joe Johnson for free and he's the worst contract in the league. Al Jefferson for 2 first round picks and cap relief MIGHT work.

Our realistic ways of getting good stuff while absorbing contracts:
1. Taking a on a bad contract and a first round pick for a second rounder and a filler or something like that. Think.. Okafor+1st for Rush+2nd.
2. Taking on a really bad contract for a decent player... I suggested this. (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=65684)

graphic-er
07-19-2011, 08:04 PM
Did you look at the schedule?

Six of those losses were to playoff teams and they went on a 5 game road trip. They lost to the Spurs, OKC, Bulls, Lakers and Boston. It was a tough part in the schedule thats all it was and a lot of teams have bad stretches like that every year. It certainly wasn't because Al Jefferson wasn't playing hard.

Edit: I am just trying to take the shovel out of your hands.. ;)

I dont' see why it matters who the competition is. They were one of the better teams in the league at that point. I've not argued how many they should have won. They lost 10.

Also its not like they got back chump change for DWill. Harris is a decent PG who can get his shot at the rim, and they picked up a nice young big. They shoudl have won more than 8 more games on the season after that trade with Al Jeff as the best player on the team.

I stand by my original statement, I'd pass on Al Jeff, I just don't see him ever being able to make a team better. He does not fit well with in a team.

troyc11a
07-19-2011, 08:31 PM
I dont' see why it matters who the competition is. They were one of the better teams in the league at that point. I've not argued how many they should have won. They lost 10.

Also its not like they got back chump change for DWill. Harris is a decent PG who can get his shot at the rim, and they picked up a nice young big. They shoudl have won more than 8 more games on the season after that trade with Al Jeff as the best player on the team.

I stand by my original statement, I'd pass on Al Jeff, I just don't see him ever being able to make a team better. He does not fit well with in a team.

I thought everyone on this board liked Fat Albert?
There are 2 things I really dont want to see the Pacers do: Sign a player with injury problems or weight problems!

Anthem
07-19-2011, 09:52 PM
Utah won't just trade us Al Jefferson for free
I don't really think they're interested in trading Al Jefferson, period.

Which is why I suggested Millsap.

ensergio
07-19-2011, 09:56 PM
Deron clearly wanted him to sprint and cut between Josh Childress and Grant Hill into the paint there for an easy layup.
Instead, Hayward was soft or lazy or confused and was jogging behind Deron. He missed the moment and settled at the 3. By then Phoenix defense was set.

Keep in mind, Sloan isn't the most forgiving guy when it comes to mistakes. Even less forgiving to not playing hard. And eventually it sinks into all players. What I'm saying - the frustration by Deron is valid. The fact they scored later in that play doesn't change it.

There's no excuse for expressing your frustrations in the way Deron did though.

Thanks for the explanation, now i get it. But i think that maybe Hayward was more comfortable with the open 3 (or just like you said, he was confused)

CableKC
07-20-2011, 04:03 AM
I don't really think they're interested in trading Al Jefferson, period.

Which is why I suggested Millsap.
I'd really hope for AlJeff would be available....but yeah.....IMHO Milsap+RajaBell for Posey+some 1st round pick would be the best offer I'd want to send....but nonetheless despite Milsap being a much better Starting PF option then what we have now and fairly solid value.....Milsap is not the type of PF that I am looking to add to the roster.

thefeistyone
07-20-2011, 07:05 AM
Why all the hatred for Utah?

Doesn't drafting Hayward before Bird is tempted by the local boy count for anything.

Utah will always hold a special place in my heart for that, even if they don't give us Jefferson or Milsap for free

wintermute
07-20-2011, 08:40 AM
I don't really think they're interested in trading Al Jefferson, period.

Which is why I suggested Millsap.

I hope you're right, cuz I like Millsap a heck of a lot more than Al Jeff.

Honestly, I don't think Jefferson's trade value is all that high. Otherwise, Minny should have gotten a much better return for him, don't you think? And that was just a year ago. It's not like Jefferson has done anything to change his value since then.


Milsap is not the type of PF that I am looking to add to the roster.

Neither is Al Jeff though.

Putnam
07-20-2011, 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by graphic-er http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/PDbuttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1267754#post1267754) There are alot of Gordon Hayward haters on PD and they purposely bring him up in any discussion involving an opinion I have as a way to try and discredit me.



Don't worry. Nothing anybody else does or says can diminish the reputation you've created for yourself.


---------


As to the basketball content:

One very possible outcome is that the Pacers hold onto their newly won cap space. Keeping the payroll low means keeping the franchise profitable, which must be TPTB's top concern.

ballism
07-20-2011, 08:53 AM
Honestly, I don't think Jefferson's trade value is all that high. Otherwise, Minny should have gotten a much better return for him, don't you think? And that was just a year ago. It's not like Jefferson has done anything to change his value since then.


One more year has passed since his injury. He stayed healthy for 82 games playing 36 minutes. He has 29 mil left instead of 42. And his GM is no longer David Khan.

There are plenty reasons why he won't be as cheap.

graphic-er
07-20-2011, 09:05 AM
Don't worry. Nothing anybody else does or says can diminish the reputation you've created for yourself.


Please elaborate on what you think my reputation is.

Speed
07-20-2011, 09:40 AM
Thinking about the NFL lockout being resolved soon. They are going to cram 5-6 months of Free Agency, trades, whatever into 3 weeks.

I'd guess the Pacers and their cap room are on every Free Agents mind and every GMs mind.

I mean that Free Agent players who want to get paid almost have to consider the Pacers, since they are one of very few team with money to spend.

GMs have to consider the Pacers and should be game planning right now, to use the Pacers cap space to get their roster squared away, either by a 3rd team trade scenario or really just dumping salary.

It really could be a huge, quick injection of talent for the Pacers if the lockout even lasts into training camp.

Pritchard on board could really really help handle the fast moving set of opportunities when the time comes.

Hicks
07-20-2011, 09:55 AM
If I recognize something as bait, I acknowledge it as such and refrain from taking it.

BRushWithDeath
07-20-2011, 10:01 AM
Why all the hatred for Utah?

Doesn't drafting Hayward before Bird is tempted by the local boy count for anything.

Utah will always hold a special place in my heart for that, even if they don't give us Jefferson or Milsap for free

Notwithstanding graphic-er, Gordon Hayward is either really undervalued on this board or Paul George is really overvalued on this board.

Speed
07-20-2011, 10:08 AM
I've said this before. I root hard for a kid from the Westside of Indy who helped take Butler to the Championship game, in a big way. I'm a big fan. It doesn't mean I can't think Paul George is better, nor does it mean I have to think Hayward is a future allstar.

Its two different things. It doesn't make you a hater, imo.

What causes people to pick a side is the extremes of both sides.

I'd guess most people on PD fall about where I am. Hope Hayward does great, but realizes he's not awful or the greatest ever.

Putnam
07-20-2011, 11:09 AM
Please elaborate on what you think my reputation is. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->





If I recognize something as bait, I acknowledge it as such and refrain from taking it.


Hick's advice is right. However, my earlier comment wasn't meant to be a taunt or provocation to graphic-er. To say that his own comments affect his reputation more than the comments of others doesn't imply that his reputation is high or low.

What we say for ourselves speaks louder than anything others can say against us. It is nearly always prudent to back out of an argument as soon as it is obvious that no consensus will be reached. Or, as someone once said, "Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty, and the pig likes it."

naptownmenace
07-20-2011, 11:37 AM
Utah had far to many good players at the beginning of last year to nose dive so fast, Jefferson just couldn't fit in.


The Jazz started out the season hot and had a record of 31-23 and were 8th in the West when Jerry Sloan resigned. After Sloan left they immediately lost 4 games in-a-row and after Deron Williams was traded their record was 8-16.

How is any of that Al Jefferson's fault? If it's his fault, it's equally Paul Milsap's fault too since he was there the entire season as well.

pacer4ever
07-20-2011, 12:38 PM
Why all the hatred for Utah?


Who is hating Utah? They are building a great team there and have a lot of good players and a lot of good young talent.

graphic-er
07-20-2011, 01:30 PM
The Jazz started out the season hot and had a record of 31-23 and were 8th in the West when Jerry Sloan resigned. After Sloan left they immediately lost 4 games in-a-row and after Deron Williams was traded their record was 8-16.

How is any of that Al Jefferson's fault? If it's his fault, it's equally Paul Milsap's fault too since he was there the entire season as well.

I see where you are coming from.

But even losing Dwill, that team should have won more than 8 games the rest of the season. SO yeah there is alot of blame to go around. Where was the veteran leadership by their other star Al Jeff?

Lou Bega
07-20-2011, 02:26 PM
I just want to go on record as saying trading for D Favors would be a terrible mistake. If New Jersey was smart they would have drafted D Cousins over him and they never would have done the deal for D Williams.

ballism
07-20-2011, 02:38 PM
I'd take Favors over any player from this year's draft. If I was Bird. Anyway, pointless discussion, Jazz aren't trading him.

yoadknux
07-20-2011, 03:08 PM
I don't really think they're interested in trading Al Jefferson, period.

Which is why I suggested Millsap.
Millsap isn't overpaid and his contract isn't long. They won't just trade him for an expiring when they can probably get decent value in return

Lou Bega
07-20-2011, 03:34 PM
I'd take Favors over any player from this year's draft. If I was Bird. Anyway, pointless discussion, Jazz aren't trading him.

Both Kanter & A Burks will have better seasons for the Jazz than Favors in two years. Name a single game where Favors wowed you? G-Smoothe did last year against the Lakers but Favors has never had a single game where you are like Wow. That dude is going to be a star.

He is all potential much like Joe Alexander/Terrence Williams. Favors is a bust in the making.

ballism
07-20-2011, 03:47 PM
I don't remember games where I didn't like what I saw. I didn't see anything stupid, lazy, soft, weak, slow, intimidated or unimpressive about Favors.

He's nothing like Alexander (that's ridiculous) and he's more talented than T-Will. Although with T-Will, it's hard to separate talent from ****** attitude. Favors already had a much better season - amid enormous off-court comedy - than either of those guys ever had.

Gamble1
07-20-2011, 04:06 PM
Both Kanter & A Burks will have better seasons for the Jazz than Favors in two years. Name a single game where Favors wowed you? G-Smoothe did last year against the Lakers but Favors has never had a single game where you are like Wow. That dude is going to be a star.

He is all potential much like Joe Alexander/Terrence Williams. Favors is a bust in the making.
With regards to scoring I think you may be right but if you look at overall impact I think your wrong. I think pulling down 10 offensive boards against Miami in 24 minutes is pretty amazing. I certainly wish we had that guy next to Hibbert.

Lou Bega
07-20-2011, 04:17 PM
My take on Favors is this his game is BULLY TACTICS. That style does not translate well into today's NBA. He can get you ten boards but will get outsmarted by Foster when the game is on the line. He has no mid range jumper. Not a great passer, Cant run the court, or cover the wing on Defense.

People can like who they want I just believe D Cousins has the best skill set of any big drafted in the last 3 years. Yes, He need to mature but his all around game & basketball skill set has not been matched by Blake Griffen or anybody else drafted in the last 3 years.

Lou Bega
07-20-2011, 04:21 PM
With regards to scoring I think you may be right but if you look at overall impact I think your wrong. I think pulling down 10 offensive boards against Miami in 24 minutes is pretty amazing. I certainly wish we had that guy next to Hibbert.

Burks is going to be real good. I think he is the break out player that was drafted this year ie will be top 1-3 on the 2011 re draft in 2014. Kanter is has a better low post scoring game than Favors right now. Favors is more aggressive & tougher though.

Utah has a nice mix of talent coming along.

troyc11a
07-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Both Kanter & A Burks will have better seasons for the Jazz than Favors in two years. Name a single game where Favors wowed you? G-Smoothe did last year against the Lakers but Favors has never had a single game where you are like Wow. That dude is going to be a star.

He is all potential much like Joe Alexander/Terrence Williams. Favors is a bust in the making.

Are you putting Paul George in the "bust waiting to happen" category too? Favors had a better year than Paul did while playing a much tougher position for young players to adjust to.

ballism
07-20-2011, 04:50 PM
I don't agree with that assessment of Favors. He can run fine, he shoots from mid range (will never be a Nowitzki in that regard, but Elton Brand? - sure), and he's mobile for his size.

Btw, I'd take Cousins over Wall in 2010 if he didn't act like he was raised by Isiah Rider.
I also "suspect" that Jeff Foster could outsmart any 20 year old big in an NBA game.
None of the above means that Favors is a bust.

xBulletproof
07-20-2011, 05:30 PM
I don't agree with that assessment of Favors. He can run fine, he shoots from mid range (will never be a Nowitzki in that regard, but Elton Brand? - sure), and he's mobile for his size.

Btw, I'd take Cousins over Wall in 2010 if he didn't act like he was raised by Isiah Rider.
I also "suspect" that Jeff Foster could outsmart any 20 year old big in an NBA game.
None of the above means that Favors is a bust.

We agree a lot lately. :buddies:

Lou Bega
07-21-2011, 10:15 AM
Paul George is not a bust waiting to happen. He is over valued by several members on this forum. Favors & PG are similar in they both have solid game but nothing about their games Wow U. What is the best part of PG game? The way he finishes around the rim or his defense. What is the best part of Favors game?

Favors gets the ball in the law post and tries to initiate contact ie bully tactics. Maybe he just looks raw compared to AL Jefferson's polished low post game & slow compared to Paul Milsap running the court. I just was never impressed w/ him once last year. Lazier Hayward looked smoother on offense compared to Favors.

mildlysane
07-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Paul George is not a bust waiting to happen. He is over valued by several members on this forum. Favors & PG are similar in they both have solid game but nothing about their games Wow U. What is the best part of PG game? The way he finishes around the rim or his defense. What is the best part of Favors game?

Favors gets the ball in the law post and tries to initiate contact ie bully tactics. Maybe he just looks raw compared to AL Jefferson's polished low post game & slow compared to Paul Milsap running the court. I just was never impressed w/ him once last year. Lazier Hayward looked smoother on offense compared to Favors.
Disagree a bit on your PG assessment. His defense does WOW me. That aspect of his game is better than any aspect of Favors game. He is head and shoulders above Favors for that reason alone. Offensively, not so much, yet.

pacer4ever
07-21-2011, 11:27 AM
Paul George is not a bust waiting to happen. He is over valued by several members on this forum. Favors & PG are similar in they both have solid game but nothing about their games Wow U. What is the best part of PG game? The way he finishes around the rim or his defense. What is the best part of Favors game?

Favors gets the ball in the law post and tries to initiate contact ie bully tactics. Maybe he just looks raw compared to AL Jefferson's polished low post game & slow compared to Paul Milsap running the court. I just was never impressed w/ him once last year. Lazier Hayward looked smoother on offense compared to Favors.

since when has basketball been about wowing people? The guy in your sig Faried is gonna be a hell of a role player but he isn't gonna "wow" anyone he is just gonna fight and rebound and hustle.

If you want to be wowed maybe you should watch and 1?

Speed
07-21-2011, 11:30 AM
since when has basketball been about wowing people? The guy in your sig Faried is gonna be a hell of a role player but he isn't gonna "wow" anyone he is just gonna fight and rebound and hustle.

If you want to be wowed maybe you should watch and 1?

Some like sizzle, some like steak.

pacer4ever
07-21-2011, 11:34 AM
Some like sizzle, some like steak.

I don't care if the shoot like rick barry's underhand FT and are boring as hell to watch and cant dunk as long as they can contribute to putting the ball into the hoop and wins.

Taterhead
07-21-2011, 01:01 PM
I just want to go on record as saying trading for D Favors would be a terrible mistake. If New Jersey was smart they would have drafted D Cousins over him and they never would have done the deal for D Williams.

They took Favors because he can play the 4. Lopez and Cousins would be one of the slowest front courts in the league and don't fit well together on either end of the floor. That would of made the trade even more likely.

And I think you're wrong on Favors too. He is gonna be a rebounding machine and defensive monster in 2-3 years. He might never be the offensive player Cousins is, but he will be a better all around big man. Plus he has a much better attitude. Cousins is very skilled offensively. But he has some limitations athletically. His vertical leap would make George Costanza proud.

Everyone raves about Tyler and they don't realize Favors put up similar numbers in his rookie season in less minutes despite switching teams mid season and being 6 years younger than him.

Derrick Favors is the perfect PF for this team. I would trade Granger for him right now if they throw in Gordon Hayward.


Anyways, I think there are gonna be a lot of guys available after the new CBA that will surprise us. So once free agency begins we will have some pretty nice options.

Lou Bega
07-21-2011, 01:21 PM
Some Posters on this forum thing PG is all-star. He hasnt wowed me. He is far from an allstar. His defense is no better than L Deng's in Chicago.

You are very wrong about D Cousins. He is in the Z Randolph mode where his defense doesnt matter. Lopez was hot for second but Roy Hibbert has surpassed him. New Jersey may have been a tough place to play for big men.

Favors is not there. I know he is young. I just dont see him being effective in this league. I have stated my reasons and you can disagree all you want.

Wow- a rookie showing flashes of greatness ie G Smoothe vs LAL Where did PG or D Favors do something like that last season? You can say PG defense did but where did it wow U? He held a hobbled D Rose to 24 points in a playoff game is not WOW. The Pacers lost games they should have won against the Bulls that series.

Gamble1
07-21-2011, 01:46 PM
Wow- a rookie showing flashes of greatness ie G Smoothe vs LAL Where did PG or D Favors do something like that last season? You can say PG defense did but where did it wow U? He held a hobbled D Rose to 24 points in a playoff game is not WOW. The Pacers lost games they should have won against the Bulls that series.
Anybody else having a hard time figuring out who G Smoothe is.

ballism
07-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Some Posters on this forum thing PG is all-star. He hasnt wowed me. He is far from an allstar. His defense is no better than L Deng's in Chicago.


I've never seen anyone say Paul George IS an all star.


Z Randolph mode where his defense doesnt matter.

???
Zach Randolph himself didn't matter untill he came to Memphis and started to care about defense a little.

As for Cousins, he could be great on both ends. But he's lazy - among many other mental issues.


Wow- a rookie showing flashes of greatness ie G Smoothe vs LAL

So to judge talent, you pick someone's best rookie game? Serious business.

If only James Harden or Jrue Holiday had a 50 point game in their rookie years like Brandon Jennings... Heck, at least Kobe or T-Mac should've done that...
But they didn't, so Brandon Jennings will be the superstar of the 21st century.

ballism
07-21-2011, 01:50 PM
Anybody else having a hard time figuring out who G Smoothe is.

I assumed he means Griffin since he had a good LA game. I may be wrong.

Lou Bega
07-21-2011, 02:44 PM
G Smoothe- Gordan Heyward of Butler. Remember his rap on youtube. He put it to Kobe & the Lakers late in the year.


Z Randolph was very good in Portland. He has been a double double guy his whole career. Where hasn't he produced? Marion Highschool, Mich State, Portland, New York, Memphis? Please tell me. Dude is a beast he trumps Milsap hands down.

Yes people on this board thing PG is going to be better than DG33 and DG is an allstar.

judicata
07-21-2011, 02:55 PM
Yet another inexplicable and aesthetically nauseating hoops nickname that I will never use.

graphic-er
07-21-2011, 03:00 PM
Derrick Favors is the perfect PF for this team. I would trade Granger for him right now if they throw in Gordon Hayward.


I felt a tingle run up my leg there. :dance:

Sandman21
07-21-2011, 03:03 PM
:picardriker:

pacer4ever
07-21-2011, 03:03 PM
G Smoothe- Gordan Heyward of Butler. Remember his rap on youtube. He put it to Kobe & the Lakers late in the year.


Z Randolph was very good in Portland. He has been a double double guy his whole career. Where hasn't he produced? Marion Highschool, Mich State, Portland, New York, Memphis? Please tell me. Dude is a beast he trumps Milsap hands down.

Yes people on this board thing PG is going to be better than DG33 and DG is an allstar.

lol Hayward showed signs of greatness wtf? I saw him play 25 times last year and didn't see signs of greatness. He will be a good role player but a star no way. Anyway judging a guy off one game is insanely stupid.

graphic-er
07-21-2011, 03:15 PM
lol Hayward showed signs of greatness wtf? I saw him play 25 times last year and didn't see signs of greatness. He will be a good role player but a star no way. Anyway judging a guy off one game is insanely stupid.

Imposing his will on the Lakers.
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qaiUkuSIVXM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Career High 34 last game of the season.
<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7K6w5DnKdfw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lou Bega
07-21-2011, 03:19 PM
lol Hayward showed signs of greatness wtf? I saw him play 25 times last year and didn't see signs of greatness. He will be a good role player but a star no way. Anyway judging a guy off one game is insanely stupid.

You must have watched the wrong 25 games Bruh. Signs of greatness are shown in those clips, the fact you refuse to see them is insanely stupid.

CableKC
07-21-2011, 03:25 PM
Zach Randolph himself didn't matter untill he came to Memphis and started to care about defense a little.
I recall listening to one of the NBA Analysts during the Playoffs that suggested the reason that the Grizzlies pursued Battier is so that ZBo can be paired with more defensive minded Players so that he focus on the offensive end. Looking at the primary rotation that ZBo is paired with....Tony Allen, Battier and Gasol....this allowed for ZBo's effort ( or lack thereof ) would be masked or limited due to the rest of the Players that he is on the floor with.

graphic-er
07-21-2011, 03:25 PM
You must have watched the wrong 25 games Bruh. Signs of greatness are shown in those clips, the fact you refuse to see them is insanely stupid.

Genobli 2.0 in the making.

Anthem
07-21-2011, 03:32 PM
Millsap isn't overpaid and his contract isn't long. They won't just trade him for an expiring when they can probably get decent value in return
Who's talking about giving up an expiring? A pure salary-absorbing trade is far more valuable than one for an expiring.

Taterhead
07-21-2011, 03:33 PM
You are very wrong about D Cousins. He is in the Z Randolph mode where his defense doesnt matter.

Defense always matters Lou, especially around the basket.

Sandman21
07-21-2011, 03:34 PM
Genobli 2.0 in the making.

:picardriker:

I really don't see how two games at a point in the season where teams are either getting ready to rest up for the playoffs or tanking to get a better shot at a lottery pick is showing anyone greatness. He's a role player and probably not much more than that.

pacer4ever
07-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Imposing his will on the Lakers.
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qaiUkuSIVXM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Career High 34 last game of the season.
<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7K6w5DnKdfw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

lol the last game of the season when everybody is resting there starters look who played for Denver. Mike Dunleavy went for 30+ versus the Nuggets this season looked like a beast does that mean he is showing signs of greatness?


i mean **** the annoncer says "kofus having a big game" lol that tells me all i need to know. I guess Kofus is showing signs of greatness lol


Judging off 2 gms of the season is insanely stupid I could go find 50+gm where he sucked.

Hicks
07-21-2011, 03:43 PM
I actually like what I've seen of Hayward. I happen to be even higher on George, but I like them both.

ballism
07-21-2011, 03:53 PM
I recall listening to one of the NBA Analysts during the Playoffs that suggested the reason that the Grizzlies pursued Battier is so that ZBo can be paired with more defensive minded Players so that he focus on the offensive end. Looking at the primary rotation that ZBo is paired with....Tony Allen, Battier and Gasol....this allowed for ZBo's effort ( or lack thereof ) would be masked or limited due to the rest of the Players that he is on the floor with.

There's lack of effort and there's lack of effort. You can't compare Z-Bo's effort during his all nba run to his effort when he was a lazy cap killer.

You can criticize both, but there's been two Zach Randolphs, and they aren't comparable.

Which is why an idea that "Randolph's defense does not matter" is odd.

graphic-er
07-21-2011, 04:22 PM
:picardriker:

I really don't see how two games at a point in the season where teams are either getting ready to rest up for the playoffs or tanking to get a better shot at a lottery pick is showing anyone greatness. He's a role player and probably not much more than that.

He is Genobli 2.0 in the making, he has a really savvy basketball game. Just like Genobli, it will only get better. Unsuspectingly athletic, quick hands, great passer, solid shot making ability. He just has to develop it all, and just wait until he adds the flop. Not as quick as Genobli, but has more size though.

I bet none of you thought Hayward would be dunking on cats this year.

vnzla81
07-21-2011, 04:30 PM
Ginobili 2.0 on the making? :spitout: .................... Mike Suckleavy 2.0 is about right.

Sandman21
07-21-2011, 04:32 PM
I bet none of you thought Hayward would be dunking on cats this year.

But he didn't dunk on cats......


In his only appearance against the Bobcats, he didn't score ANYTHING.:D

pacer4ever
07-21-2011, 04:33 PM
He is Genobli 2.0 in the making, he has a really savvy basketball game. Just like Genobli, it will only get better. Unsuspectingly athletic, quick hands, great passer, solid shot making ability. He just has to develop it all, and just wait until he adds the flop. Not as quick as Genobli, but has more size though.

I bet none of you thought Hayward would be dunking on cats this year.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/C_j30cPH5Ls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


well Gordon is 6'9 he should be able to dunk on people and cats:laugh:

xBulletproof
07-21-2011, 04:42 PM
I don't even think graphic-er believes what he says half of the time.

Hibbert
07-21-2011, 07:22 PM
Ginobili 2.0 on the making? :spitout: .................... Mike Suckleavy 2.0 is about right.

This comparison is alot more like it. Comparing Gordon Hayward to Manu Ginobli is just silly. Dun and Hayward are both the same size, both play the same position, and both handle the ball well. Hayward is more athletic than Dun but Mike has a higher basketball IQ at this point. That game against the Lakers was towards the end of the season and a part of a 5 game losing streak for the Lakers. Also that 34 point game for Hayward was the last game of season and he was being guarded by Gary Forbes the entire game, Forbes doesn't know how to play defense at all. I would take Paul George over Hayward all day long. That 23 point game by George vs. the Wiz with Mo Evans on him is more impressive to me than 34 for Hayward vs. Forbes. Mo Evans is a very solid defender.

troyc11a
07-21-2011, 08:08 PM
This comparison is alot more like it. Comparing Gordon Hayward to Manu Ginobli is just silly. Dun and Hayward are both the same size, both play the same position, and both handle the ball well. Hayward is more athletic than Dun but Mike has a higher basketball IQ at this point. That game against the Lakers was towards the end of the season and a part of a 5 game losing streak for the Lakers. Also that 34 point game for Hayward was the last game of season and he was being guarded by Gary Forbes the entire game, Forbes doesn't know how to play defense at all. I would take Paul George over Hayward all day long. That 23 point game by George vs. the Wiz with Mo Evans on him is more impressive to me than 34 for Hayward vs. Forbes. Mo Evans is a very solid defender.

Before the injuries took their toll on MD. He was a really good player. His first year here was good enough that some suggested he was the teams best player. I would have loved to see what MD could have done without the knee injury. If Gordon turns out to be close to what MD was before the injury, he will have a long career in the NBA.

2007-8 season: 82g 19.1/5.2/3.5: That is not a good year. That is a really good year!
Is there really a chance Hayward will approach those type of numbers? I hope so, but wouldn't bet on it!

Taterhead
07-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Before the injuries took their toll on MD. He was a really good player. His first year here was good enough that some suggested he was the teams best player. I would have loved to see what MD could have done without the knee injury. If Gordon turns out to be close to what MD was before the injury, he will have a long career in the NBA.

2007-8 season: 82g 19.1/5.2/3.5: That is not a good year. That is a really good year!
Is there really a chance Hayward will approach those type of numbers? I hope so, but wouldn't bet on it!

I actually agree with this. Gordon has a lot of basketball talent. I think Hayward has the athletic ability to be a solid defender at SF in time. I actually see Hayward as more of a Mike Miller type of player eventually. Miller was pretty darn good before his injuries started stacking up on him.

troyc11a
07-22-2011, 01:30 AM
I actually agree with this. Gordon has a lot of basketball talent. I think Hayward has the athletic ability to be a solid defender at SF in time. I actually see Hayward as more of a Mike Miller type of player eventually. Miller was pretty darn good before his injuries started stacking up on him.

I see the Mike Miller comparison. Hayward can be just as good if not better defender, probably will be better off the ball, will be better driving it to the rim. The only thing I dont see a comparison on is the perimeter shot. Before the injury, Mike Miller was better than Hayward ever will be from the 3-point line.

Like I said in my post, if Gordon stays healthy he has a chance to be a little less than the player Dunleavy was before the injury. I think he can and will be better than Miller - minus the outside shot!
That's still pretty good. Gordon will be in this league for a long time.

McKeyFan
07-22-2011, 08:40 AM
Why is Hayward being compared to Miller and Dunleavy and not, say, Julius Erving?

:whoknows:

Lou Bega
07-22-2011, 09:56 AM
There's lack of effort and there's lack of effort. You can't compare Z-Bo's effort during his all nba run to his effort when he was a lazy cap killer.

You can criticize both, but there's been two Zach Randolphs, and they aren't comparable.

Which is why an idea that "Randolph's defense does not matter" is odd.

ZBO's job is to score the ball same as Dirk. You want them scoring. They can play defense in spurts but you want them exerting their most energy on the offensive end. Cousins is this type of player IMO.

I understand your lack of effort pt. B Diddy in Golden State vs B Diddy now. Z Randolph brings you effort every night on the offensive end. He has matured so I can only D Cousins does the same and faster.

Lou Bega
07-22-2011, 10:02 AM
I dont think we do the deal w/ Utah for Milsap or Jefferson.

Do you see the Pacers making a run for Josh Smith ATL or Chris Kaman LAC.

What other players come to mind? Teams that may be in need of cap relief.

W/ the George Hill Trade I have ruled out Kirk Hinrich in ATL & B Diddy in Clev.

I am ok w/ Josh Smith but would be suprised if Tyler didnt beat him out 1/2 way thru the season. Then you have an upset player making too much $$. I would not mind Kaman @ all for a season. After Roy what do we have @ C or big? Nothing. He is a huge upgrade.

The Sleeze
07-22-2011, 10:06 AM
I dont think we do the deal w/ Utah for Milsap or Jefferson.

Do you see the Pacers making a run for Josh Smith ATL or Chris Kaman LAC.

What other players come to mind? Teams that may be in need of cap relief.

W/ the George Hill Trade I have ruled out Kirk Hinrich in ATL & B Diddy in Clev.

I am ok w/ Josh Smith but would be suprised if Tyler didnt beat him out 1/2 way thru the season. Then you have an upset player making too much $$. I would not mind Kaman @ all for a season. After Roy what do we have @ C or big? Nothing. He is a huge upgrade.

This is Foster's reaction to that comment.
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Indiana+Pacers+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+YqAln_5Wpmbl.j pg

Lou Bega
07-22-2011, 10:11 AM
Jeff is not under contract & if we absorb Kaman & his salary odds are Jeff goes to a legit championship team. Face it he does not have time to wait till 2013-2014 when the Pacers are back in the fold.

The Sleeze
07-22-2011, 10:14 AM
Yeah I know, the post was more humor-based than anything. I do think we'll re-sign Foster though.

BillS
07-22-2011, 10:25 AM
Dun and Hayward are both the same size, both play the same position, and both handle the ball well. Hayward is more athletic than Dun but Mike has a higher basketball IQ at this point.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but is a Mike Dunleavey drafted at #10 villified as much as he has been from being drafted at #3? You have to figure the salary is much more reasonable over the years in that case as well.

ballism
07-22-2011, 10:36 AM
ZBO's job is to score the ball same as Dirk. You want them scoring. They can play defense in spurts but you want them exerting their most energy on the offensive end. Cousins is this type of player IMO.


I disagree, I think Cousins has potential to be an elite defensive post presence. And I have no idea why you wouldn't want it.

If I'm Cousins, I start by improving overall effort and attitude, not try to shape into Zach Randolph or Dirk Nowitzki. :confused:

Hicks
07-22-2011, 02:00 PM
Why is Hayward being compared to Miller and Dunleavy and not, say, Julius Erving?

:whoknows:

I would like to see your elaboration on how Gordon Hayward plays like Julius Erving.

cgg
07-23-2011, 11:30 PM
I would like to see your elaboration on how Gordon Hayward plays like Julius Erving.

He's like a combination of shaq that can shoot freethrows and larry bird and michael jordan with magics court vision and lebrons athleticism.

xIndyFan
07-24-2011, 08:38 PM
what about joe johnson and al horford? ATL might want to get rid of JJ's gawd-awful contract [$105M over 5 yrs] by including al horford or josh smith. since horford in also expensive [$60M over 5 yrs], the pacers would have between $30M and $36M tied up in two guys. throw in danny and the total goes to 40 and 50. that uses up cap space that needs to be used to resign young pacer players.

McKeyFan
07-24-2011, 09:03 PM
I would like to see your elaboration on how Gordon Hayward plays like Julius Erving.

Think Green.

It was satire on why the comparison is always a white guy.