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90'sNBARocked
07-18-2011, 03:37 PM
They say you can't teach size. They also say you can't win a championship without affable big guys. Put those two ideas together and you'll quickly connect the dots as to why so many teams take such huge gambles on power forwards and especially centers in the draft and in free agency.

It's not easy putting together a young frontcourt that can help guide a team towards a championship future, but GMs and team presidents spend the overwhelming majority of their waking hours trying to do exactly that. Some have already gotten there; Dallas, for example, has one of the most dominant and most experienced frontcourts in the league. Same with the L.A. Lakers. It's no mystery, then, why those two teams have won the last three NBA Finals.

Everybody else simply strives to assemble their own dominant frontcourt, but it ain't easy. Today we take a look at which organizations have put together the most promising frontcourts for their team's long and short terms. I'm focusing on young frontcourts, players that may have seen some individual success but also some that may not have. More than accomplishments, I'm looking at promise. Which tandems can, through years of playing together and reaching their potential as individuals and as a duo, potentially lead their teams to a ring someday?

I'm defining "youth" as "players who will enter the 2011-2012 season with five or fewer years of NBA experience underneath their belts." Teams that appear to be conspicuously missing from this list may have a vet with six or more years of experience, even if their frontcourt mate coming in is a rookie. Both guys have to be below that threshold.

That said, here are the top five most promising young frontcourts in the league:

#5 – Jan Vesely (Rookie) and JaVale McGee (3 years of experience), Washington Wizards – If you're a fan of athleticism, you need look no further than the young bigs Washington has put together to run with John Wall. McGee isn't necessarily "great," but that doesn't mean he has to fall short of "very good," and his athleticism and shot-blocking abilities alone make him one of the more interesting center prospects in the league. Add him to Vesely, who apparently jumps through the roof and could be one of the more exciting Euro players to come along in several years, and you could certainly call the duo promising. The fact that they've got Wall dishing to them makes it easier to believe they'll be effective for many years going forward.

#4 – Tyler Hansbrough (2) and Roy Hibbert (3), Indiana Pacers – It would be surprising if the Pacers didn't use some of their bountiful cap space this offseason to bring in a new starting power forward like Carl Landry or David West, but if they don't Tyler Hansbrough certainly had his moments after the coaching change last season in Indy. If he can do that consistently with the right minutes, he'll be a pretty solid pro. As for Hibbert, there isn't anybody in the league right now with his combination of size and ability (on both ends of the floor), and he's just now tapping into his potential. They aren't the most dominant frontcourt in the league, and they probably never will be, but they deserve to be mentioned here for the strides they made last season.

#3 – LaMarcus Aldridge (5) and Greg Oden (3), Portland Trail Blazers – There aren't a lot of power forwards with fewer than six years of experience that have shown as much development as Aldridge. He's put on muscle, shown he can dominate offensively, and even proven he can carry a team that has lost several veterans to injury. There were a lot of games that Portland won last year simply because L.A. went nuts on the offensive end. He's a fantastic player, and if Greg Oden had become 50% of what he was expected to, we'd probably see this tandem at the top of the list. Without a healthy Oden, however, it's hard to rate them that high. Give us a full season of that amazing Oden defense, though, and these two would be right at the top. That alone is enough for them to crack the Top 5, but if we're talking about potential, the combination of these two guys is just too potentially awesome to ignore.

#2 – Taj Gibson (2) and Joakim Noah (4), Chicago Bulls – While Carlos Boozer obviously is the starter in Chicago, his checkered injury history means Gibson gets plenty of time in the starting lineup as well, and anyway Gibson could be a Bull for half a decade after Boozer has retired. Gibson had his coming-out party in the 2011 playoffs, but he's always been a humble, nose-to-the-grindstone worker bee, and alongside Noah, with his energy and fantastic passing ability, the two make a pretty excellent duo, particularly on the defensive end of the floor. They're rated so highly here because they're closer to anchoring a championship frontcourt than any other tandem on the list. Since that's the ultimate goal, and they're the closest to achieving it with so many great years left, they get some of the more significant props.

#1 – Blake Griffin (1) and DeAndre Jordan (3), L.A. Clippers – Because Griffin is the single best player on this list with the single brightest future on this list, he would only need a halfway decent running mate to take the top spot on this list. DeAndre Jordan is pretty easily that and more. While Jordan will probably never be an All-Star, his length and athleticism complement Griffin quite nicely, and Clippers fans will happily watch those two run up and down the floor together for the next ten years. If they can bring in the right point guard, the Clippers really could be a legitimate championship contender down the road. And who thought we'd ever be saying that?

Honorable Mention
Derrick Favors (1) and Enes Kanter (R), Utah Jazz – These guys didn't make the top five for a couple of reasons, the first being that neither one has really proven anything on the professional level yet. Both were #3 picks in the draft, which means they come into the league highly-touted with huge expectations, but Favors was disappointing in his rookie campaign and nobody really has any idea what Kanter is all about. In short, they've got a lot to prove, and for now they've got to prove it as backups to Paul Millsap and Al Jefferson. Once they get the opportunity to start, we'll see what they're made of. Right now, they're just a couple of guys with nothing but the future ahead of them. What they make of that future is still seriously up for discussion.

Jonas Jerebko (1) and Greg Monroe (1), Detroit Pistons – Monroe was easily one of the better rookies in last year's class, only getting better and better as the season went on. He went largely unnoticed because by the time he caught fire the Pistons were an afterthought in most people's minds (at least when Rip Hamilton wasn't involved in some sort of trade rumor), but rest assured that Monroe is easily one of the better young centers in the conference. Pair him up with Jerebko, who also quietly had a great rookie season a year ago in Detroit, and you've got a couple of solid, hard-working youngsters to anchor the Pistons frontcourt for quite a while. Jerebko missed all last season with an Achilles injury, but he left as the starter, and so far nobody has come in to take that away from him. We'll see what these guys are made of together for the first time in 2011-2012.

Tyrus Thomas (5) and Bismack Biyombo (R), Charlotte Bobcats – At this point in his career, Tyrus Thomas is what Tyrus Thomas is probably going to be. He's an absolute thrill to watch, can dunk and block with more pizazz than anybody in the league, but he simply hasn't been able to put everything together and contribute with any sort of positive consistency. Add him to Biyombo, who's got absolutely zero offense to speak of, and we're not looking at the brightest future for the Charlotte frontcourt here. Still, they're worth mentioning because Biyombo's ceiling is ridiculously high, and he could end up being a defensive presence along the lines of Ben Wallace someday. Combine that with the fact that fans of Tyrus Thomas will never stop believing he's got more to offer than what he's shown, and it's definitely arguable that there's some potential there. I may not personally buy into it, but there is some potential there. To not even mention them would be irresponsible.

J.J. Hickson (2) and DeMarcus Cousins (1), Sacramento Kings – The Hickson-for-Omri-Casspi trade gave Sacramento a promising young frontcourt that fans should be able to get behind (though not as much as they've already gotten behind Jimmer Fredette). We know that Cousins is about as sturdy an all-around center as you'll find in this league, but Hickson has yet to prove that he can be an everyday starter and contribute the same way every night. There's a lot to like about these two, but also a lot of question marks. As far as potential is concerned, they're up there. Production, though, especially in the wins column, keeps them on the lower end of this discussion.

Jonas Valanciunas (R) and Andrea Bargnani (5), Toronto Raptors – Valanciunas is going to be an amazing NBA player someday, which is why he's worth mentioning on this list, but technically by the time he's able to play in the NBA, Bargnani will probably have six years of experience instead of five, thereby disqualifying this particular duo from my list. Pair up Valanciunas and Ed Davis, however, and we might have something.

It's hard to say whether any of these guys will actually win a championship someday, but their bosses and owners all hope that's the case. Predicting which young big guys will succeed is tough, but it's a job these executives have to make sure gets done correctly. Luckily for me, I get to guess all willy-nilly, with nothing at stake but my reputation as a predictor. Better that than millions (and potentially billions) of dollars, right?


Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=20415#ixzz1SUHbcg6g

Brad8888
07-18-2011, 04:00 PM
And, he forgot about our veteran stretch 4, James Posey!

ballism
07-18-2011, 04:12 PM
Love, Williams and Beasley don't even make top 10 among young frontlines?

adamscb
07-18-2011, 04:12 PM
i think big roy should grow an afro, like what he had at georgetown except bigger. the days of the fro are all but gone... :(
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_blogs/ncaa_tourney/2008/uploaded_images/03roy-706681.jpg

Tom White
07-18-2011, 04:29 PM
i think big roy should grow an afro, like what he had at georgetown except bigger. the days of the fro are all but gone... :(
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_blogs/ncaa_tourney/2008/uploaded_images/03roy-706681.jpg

Just let Darnell Hillman give him some tips on hairstyles.

pacergod2
07-18-2011, 04:32 PM
Love, Williams and Beasley don't even make top 10 among young frontlines?

I would argue that Love is the third best player of all the ones mentioned and they have two second overall picks to put with him. He definitely missed that one. I would say that they might be in the honorable mention category, because they are three young PFs with no discernable center.

OakMoses
07-18-2011, 05:10 PM
Love, Williams and Beasley don't even make top 10 among young frontlines?

He's clearly only talking about PF/C combinations. He probably views Beasley and Williams as 3's and therefore they don't fit into his considerations at all.

However, I'd trade our 4th best frontcourt for Kevin Love in an instant.

90'sNBARocked
07-18-2011, 05:13 PM
He's clearly only talking about PF/C combinations. He probably views Beasley and Williams as 3's and therefore they don't fit into his considerations at all.

However, I'd trade our 4th best frontcourt for Kevin Love in an instant.

Yes I believe that the writer is referring to C/PF Tandems

Young
07-18-2011, 05:14 PM
It's good to see Roy get some respect. I hope he is a Pacer a long time. I think he will prove the doubters wrong.

ballism
07-18-2011, 05:30 PM
Pencil Pekovic as a rookie center next to Love (Sota's best defensive combo, btw).
Pencil Love as a center and Beasley as a PF (Sota's best offensive combo).
Pencil a chair next to Love.
Sota has to be on the list in any of these cases.

Lance George
07-18-2011, 05:53 PM
I would've ranked Minnesota's frontcourt 17th, you know, to match their win total last year.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 05:55 PM
It's good to see Roy get some respect. I hope he is a Pacer a long time. I think he will prove the doubters wrong.

I think at this point in his career we have to accept Roy for what he is. He is a top 15 center, but will probably never be a top 5 center or an elite player.

He will tease you and have monster games against Dwight Howard here and there, yet there will be stretches where he is absolutely invisible. Roy is not near as good as he shows flashes of being at times, but he is not as bad as the middle of the season this year would lead you to believe he is either.

Long story short is that Roy is serviceable at center, but certainly replaceable if something came along.

ballism
07-18-2011, 06:12 PM
I would've ranked Minnesota's frontcourt 17th, you know, to match their win total last year.

i know this was meant to be funny, but the joke aside - 17th frontcourt would easily be in the top 10 young frontcourts.

PacersPride
07-18-2011, 06:50 PM
I think at this point in his career we have to accept Roy for what he is.

I would agree with ur statement if not for the following:

1) Roy has a tremendous work ethic which endears him too many pacer fans.
2) Roy is only 24-25, only been in the league 3 seasons, with last year being his first as a full time starting center that is depended on too contribute.
3) He has played in a system that prob minimized his skills instead of maximizing them.
4) Centers are notoriously late bloomers unless they are Shaq, Yao, or Ewing (all top 3 draft selections).
5) Some could have said the same bout Rik Smits, and yet he really became a strong offensive center later on his career.
6) I dont think anyone expects Roy too become a Ewing or Shaq, but too say he has reached his ceiling at this point in his career is just nonsense.
7) Did i mention Obriens systems sukks.. if yes its worth repeating.

Other than that, you might be on too something:laugh:

joew8302
07-18-2011, 07:03 PM
I would agree with ur statement if not for the following:

1) Roy has a tremendous work ethic which endears him too many pacer fans.
2) Roy is only 24-25, only been in the league 3 seasons, with last year being his first as a full time starting center that is depended on too contribute.
3) He has played in a system that prob minimized his skills instead of maximizing them.
4) Centers are notoriously late bloomers unless they are Shaq, Yao, or Ewing (all top 3 draft selections).
5) Some could have said the same bout Rik Smits, and yet he really became a strong offensive center later on his career.
6) I dont think anyone expects Roy too become a Ewing or Shaq, but too say he has reached his ceiling at this point in his career is just nonsense.
7) Did i mention Obriens systems sukks.. if yes its worth repeating.

Other than that, you might be on too something:laugh:

Ahhh man, this board is going to go crazy the next time the Pacers have a bad streak. Who on earth are you guys all going to blame?

travmil
07-18-2011, 07:07 PM
Ahhh man, this board is going to go crazy the next time the Pacers have a bad streak. Who on earth are you guys all going to blame?

Lance.

Smits Happens
07-18-2011, 07:31 PM
Ahhh man, this board is going to go crazy the next time the Pacers have a bad streak. Who on earth are you guys all going to blame?

JOB will still get the blame for as long as most of the players on the team once played for him.

Wage
07-18-2011, 07:35 PM
Ahhh man, this board is going to go crazy the next time the Pacers have a bad streak. Who on earth are you guys all going to blame?

Bird, Granger, DC, Posey, Ron Artest... think we will be fine on scapegoats for the time being.

Sandman21
07-18-2011, 07:55 PM
Ahhh man, this board is going to go crazy the next time the Pacers have a bad streak. Who on earth are you guys all going to blame?
Posey. Even if he never gets off the bench ever again.:D

"But Sandman, Posey hasn't played in six months! I don't care, it's his fault anyway!":dance:

joew8302
07-18-2011, 08:03 PM
Aww man, whats wrong with Tinsley and Jackson? When did that go out of style?

ballism
07-18-2011, 08:06 PM
You can always blame Canada.

Sandman21
07-18-2011, 08:17 PM
Aww man, whats wrong with Tinsley and Jackson? When did that go out of style?

Approximately 2009. :D

joew8302
07-18-2011, 08:19 PM
Approximately 2009. :D

Dang, guess I am late to the party!:laugh:

joew8302
07-18-2011, 08:25 PM
In all seriousness, what are some of you expecting from Roy? He was a 13/7.5 guy this past year. I think that is going to be about par for the course. Could those numbers be 15/8.5? I suppose, but I think that is about his ceiling.

So what do you O'Brien haters/Hibbert apologists think now that Frank is the coach and the "evil" JOB is gone? Is he suddenly going to become a 20/10 guy? Is he going to be a top 5 center magically? I really would love some concrete predictions about Roy's future numbers and production and why it will dramatically improve now that O'Brien is gone.

PR07
07-18-2011, 08:45 PM
Size and skill, the author of may be right...but athleticism plays a lot into it too, and there are quite a few guys playing the center position with more of it than Roy. However, it is nice to see our guys get some love.

Lance George
07-18-2011, 09:20 PM
In all seriousness, what are some of you expecting from Roy? He was a 13/7.5 guy this past year. I think that is going to be about par for the course. Could those numbers be 15/8.5? I suppose, but I think that is about his ceiling.

So what do you O'Brien haters/Hibbert apologists think now that Frank is the coach and the "evil" JOB is gone? Is he suddenly going to become a 20/10 guy? Is he going to be a top 5 center magically? I really would love some concrete predictions about Roy's future numbers and production and why it will dramatically improve now that O'Brien is gone.

Keep in mind that Roy's 13/7.5 comes in less than 28 minutes per game. He's a 15/8.5 guy right now with just a couple more minutes per game, so I think setting that as his ceiling is rather silly.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 09:37 PM
Keep in mind that Roy's 13/7.5 comes in less than 28 minutes per game. He's a 15/8.5 guy right now with just a couple more minutes per game, so I think setting that as his ceiling is rather silly.

And if he shoots 85% from the line and 48% from the field he has 17 ppg, funny how that works.

If if's and but's were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas.

Until then I will stick to reality.

Young
07-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Size and skill, the author of may be right...but athleticism plays a lot into it too, and [b]there are quite a few guys playing the center position with more of it than Roy.[b]

Outside of Dwight Howard, who? I bet it is not nearly as many as some think. Just go through the centers on hoopshype. http://hoopshype.com/depth_charts.htm. Of course some are missing from the depth charts due to free agency but you get the point.

I didn't think Roy would be a starter in the league due to his lack of great athleticism. I was dead wrong. I think that there is more athleticism in the big men of today but there are not as many centers Roy will go up against that he can't handle due to their athleticism.

Lance George
07-18-2011, 10:24 PM
And if he shoots 85% from the line and 48% from the field he has 17 ppg, funny how that works.

If if's and but's were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas.

Until then I will stick to reality.

The problem is the term "ceiling" implies best case scenario, thus your "ceiling" Roy, whose production is basically current Roy playing four more minutes a game, seems unreasonably low. Best case scenario is that Roy both improves his production and plays more minutes per game, which would put him at least in the high teens in scoring and low double-figures rebounding.

Sparhawk
07-18-2011, 10:26 PM
I'd still like to put Jason Thompson next to Hibbert.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 10:31 PM
The problem is the term "ceiling" implies best case scenario, thus your "ceiling" Roy, whose production is basically current Roy playing four more minutes a game, seems unreasonably low. Best case scenario is that Roy both improves his production and plays more minutes per game, which would put him at least in the high teens in scoring and low double-figures rebounding.

All I can say is I really hope you are right and I am wrong. 18/10 from the center position would be outstanding.

graphic-er
07-18-2011, 10:52 PM
Outside of Dwight Howard, who? I bet it is not nearly as many as some think. Just go through the centers on hoopshype. http://hoopshype.com/depth_charts.htm. Of course some are missing from the depth charts due to free agency but you get the point.

I didn't think Roy would be a starter in the league due to his lack of great athleticism. I was dead wrong. I think that there is more athleticism in the big men of today but there are not as many centers Roy will go up against that he can't handle due to their athleticism.

I agree with this post. Infact I'll go so far to say that if Roy puts on some muscle mass to his frame this offseason he will be the one pushing Bogut around. Height is the ultimate equalizer in basketball.

OakMoses
07-18-2011, 11:22 PM
The ways Roy needs to improve his game have little to do with his point and rebounding numbers. He could be a 13/8 guy for the rest of his career and become an integral part of a contending team if he makes the right improvements.

First, he needs to become more efficient. Centers are supposed to shoot over 50%. Good centers should shoot 55+%. Roy's 45% from last season is never going to be acceptable, especially since he's not an Ilgauskas style jump shooter. To provide some contrast, Nene shot above 60% last season and averaged more points on fewer shots than Roy. We are never going to have an efficient offense if our only true low post scorer can't post a better FG%. Cutting down on the turnovers would help also.

The second thing Roy needs to do is to not let his shooting affect the other aspects of his game. Last year when Roy was playing well offensively, he played high energy defense. He was a shot-blocking presence and effectively deterred other teams from attacking the basket at will. However, when he wasn't scoring, he played with far less energy and confidence defensively. In short, he was hurting the team when he was on the floor. This was never more apparent than during the Bulls series, but it happened regularly during the regular season as well.


Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

adamscb
07-18-2011, 11:28 PM
JOB will still get the blame for as long as most of the players on the team once played for him.

the first thing vogel should do, once this lockout is over, is take all the players to a psychiatrist. that will get rid of that little voice that says 'lob the three......' once the players step over half court.

spazzxb
07-19-2011, 02:54 AM
i think big roy should grow an afro, like what he had at georgetown except bigger. the days of the fro are all but gone... :(
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_blogs/ncaa_tourney/2008/uploaded_images/03roy-706681.jpg


The last conversation I had about Roy and a Fro turned into my avatar. For at least a day you inspired me to bring it back.

I was just curious what he would look like, he should do whatever will help him be a force every night. Whatever makes him feel like a beast.

The Jackson shimmy
07-19-2011, 06:48 AM
Who the hell is Jonas Jerebko ?

pizza guy
07-19-2011, 10:16 AM
I don't think Hibbert is done improving yet. I think if he puts the work in and gets some good coaching from Vogel and Boylen, his ceiling is around 20/10 for a few years. It won't be his career average, but I think he's just approaching his prime, and in the next few years he will improve beyond the big leap he made this last year.

The taste of the playoffs that these guys got has only made them want to push harder, and Roy already was a hard worker. Same goes for Hansbrough. Maybe not a 20/10 guy at any point, but I do think he still has room to improve and be a solid starter on a good team.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 10:30 AM
Who the hell is Jonas Jerebko ?

he was a beast as a rookie really kind of like the Landry Fields of his draft than tore his Achilles' tendon and miss all last season. He will be back next year and should be back to being a good player

ksuttonjr76
07-19-2011, 10:47 AM
In all seriousness, what are some of you expecting from Roy? He was a 13/7.5 guy this past year. I think that is going to be about par for the course. Could those numbers be 15/8.5? I suppose, but I think that is about his ceiling.

So what do you O'Brien haters/Hibbert apologists think now that Frank is the coach and the "evil" JOB is gone? Is he suddenly going to become a 20/10 guy? Is he going to be a top 5 center magically? I really would love some concrete predictions about Roy's future numbers and production and why it will dramatically improve now that O'Brien is gone.

And 15/8 is "bad" production from a non-allstar center, and on a team that have players that can score at all positions?

pacergod2
07-19-2011, 10:54 AM
Team is about having the right combination of pieces, whether it is on a basketball court or in a classroom or in an office building or on a building site.

The great Pacers teams were a great example of how great teams have synergistic skills across its rotations.

I think Hibbert can be a huge force for us long-term. Will he be an All-Star? Maybe once or twice at his peak. He needs to be something different than what ESPN has force fed us with this "he must be a superstar" mentality. Hibbert needs to get his little hook shot to go down more often. There were so many shots that Hibbert missed where the ball had the touch, but rolled off the rim. That comes with experience and confidence. He is developing both and I think Hibbert will end up averaging about 17 ppg for us. I would like to see his effectiveness more along the lines of being a defensive force that players have to consider anytime they go into the lane for a shot. We need Hibbert to contend shots most importantly. That is why it is so important for us to put players around him that will allow him to leave his man at times without giving up an easy bucket. Right now our guards are doing a better job of denying easy penetration, which is a huge help to Hibbert. Having a good weakside defnder in the front court who is capable of reading and reacting to switch situations will be really important for Hibbert as well. That, too, comes with experience. We are getting closer, but remember, we don't need Hibbert to be a Hall of Famer (or a 20/10 guy even) to have a chance to be good. We need Hibbert and the players around him to collectively gel, while fully understanding and applying our defensive and offensive schemes.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 12:10 PM
And 15/8 is "bad" production from a non-allstar center, and on a team that have players that can score at all positions?

Only if you say so I suppose? If you are inferring I meant that I am not sure where in the heck you are getting that.

PacersPride
07-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Ahhh man, this board is going to go crazy the next time the Pacers have a bad streak. Who on earth are you guys all going to blame?

I mentioned several points why Roy has not reached his ceiling. I would need to go backand read ur quote again but i believe u stated "we need to accept Roy for what he is" or something too that affect which basically implies he is not going too improve any.

and ur darn right im going too state JoB systems was not conducive too roys skills. O'briens system sukks. i guess maybe u are one of the very few who musta wanted him too stick around?

bottom line, i mentioned several reasons why Roy still has room too improve, guess the only disagreement u had with my post was JOB's system not sukking ba**s.

its not all about the numbers as u refer too in ur other posts. he can certainly become a much better player on the defensive end.. and as i illustrated previously, Roys work ethic and dedication too improving seems too me one of his most positive attribute.

i guess too answer ur question in all sincerity... if Roy fails, he is the only one too truly blame.

the only player JOB ever ruinned was Granger, yet thankfully Granger still has time too get back too the player we all thought he could be become on both ends of the court. instead of jakking up 3's time and time again, Granger made strides on taking the ball too the rim last year, which was great too see. he even started playing defense again in the playoffs.

it wasnt till Legend became coach that Smits actually started producing in a much more efficient manner, granted maybe injuries had something too do with it, but he seemed too become a much more seasoned veteran under Legend and knew his niche with the team.

Roy still has plenty he can improve on, and with more experience and dedication to his craft, i believe its a bogus statement too say we should accept him for what he is at this point in his career.

Speed
07-19-2011, 12:40 PM
I waffle on Roy, maybe more than any Pacer player ever, on what I think.

The part of the OP about his very unique abilities compared to the league is really something to think about. 7'2" guys who can score like Roy does are rare. Opposing teams have to really game plan for him when he's clicking.

I also, often, think about how we (PD) mostly feel like you need a defensive, physical, rebounding PF next to him. This really restricts how you can build going forward, which waffles me back the other way, realizing his limitations.

Speed
07-19-2011, 12:51 PM
More on the Waffling.

At times, I think if Roy does exactly what he did now, but more consistently on offense and especially defense then he's a top center in the league.

At times, I think when Roy doesn't rotate on defense, gets pushed around, gets down on himself that he can't be a starting center on a upper playoff team, ever.

Same for Tyler, I waffle just not as much.

If Tyler got 4 more rebounds a game, which is alot I realize, I think the perception of him would drastically be altered that almost everyone would think he's the starting answer at PF for the next 7 years.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 01:14 PM
I mentioned several points why Roy has not reached his ceiling. I would need to go backand read ur quote again but i believe u stated "we need to accept Roy for what he is" or something too that affect which basically implies he is not going too improve any.

and ur darn right im going too state JoB systems was not conducive too roys skills. O'briens system sukks. i guess maybe u are one of the very few who musta wanted him too stick around?

bottom line, i mentioned several reasons why Roy still has room too improve, guess the only disagreement u had with my post was JOB's system not sukking ba**s.

its not all about the numbers as u refer too in ur other posts. he can certainly become a much better player on the defensive end.. and as i illustrated previously, Roys work ethic and dedication too improving seems too me one of his most positive attribute.

i guess too answer ur question in all sincerity... if Roy fails, he is the only one too truly blame.

the only player JOB ever ruinned was Granger, yet thankfully Granger still has time too get back too the player we all thought he could be become on both ends of the court. instead of jakking up 3's time and time again, Granger made strides on taking the ball too the rim last year, which was great too see. he even started playing defense again in the playoffs.

it wasnt till Legend became coach that Smits actually started producing in a much more efficient manner, granted maybe injuries had something too do with it, but he seemed too become a much more seasoned veteran under Legend and knew his niche with the team.

Roy still has plenty he can improve on, and with more experience and dedication to his craft, i believe its a bogus statement too say we should accept him for what he is at this point in his career.

So just because I don't blame JOB for the heat wave means I wanted him to stay? Solid logic.

I am also not following your logic on how O'Brien ruined Granger? Wasn't Granger an all star under O'Brien?

I would love to know what areas, specifically, Roy will show dramatic improvement in now that Frank is the coach? Will he average 10 rebounds a game, 20 points, shoot 55% from the field? Since the evil JOB isn't the coach tell me how Roy's game will improve.

90'sNBARocked
07-19-2011, 01:28 PM
So just because I don't blame JOB for the heat wave means I wanted him to stay? Solid logic.

I am also not following your logic on how O'Brien ruined Granger? Wasn't Granger an all star under O'Brien?

I would love to know what areas, specifically, Roy will show dramatic improvement in now that Frank is the coach? Will he average 10 rebounds a game, 20 points, shoot 55% from the field? Since the evil JOB isn't the coach tell me how Roy's game will improve.

Yeah got to agree with Joe on that. Granger had career years under OBIE , an all star apperance and a spot on the world team

I wish my employer would "ruin " my career like that

ECKrueger
07-19-2011, 01:39 PM
I don't think JOB ruined Danny, but I think you could argue that he fell into some bad habits while he was coach. Not saying one is because of the other, but it is possible.

I forgot I was going to mention that losing and frustration could have had an effect on Danny too, to where he had some lazy habits or whatever.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 01:43 PM
I don't think JOB ruined Danny, but I think you could argue that he fell into some bad habits while he was coach. Not saying one is because of the other, but it is possible.

I forgot I was going to mention that losing and frustration could have had an effect on Danny too, to where he had some lazy habits or whatever.

I could buy that. Danny isn't perfect and some bad habits did develop. "Ruined" is not the word I would use.

ECKrueger
07-19-2011, 01:47 PM
I could buy that. Danny isn't perfect and some bad habits did develop. "Ruined" is not the word I would use.

See, it is not so hard to compromise people :)

Like I said too, the bad habits might not even be on JOB. Could have been the losing. The habits just showed up while he was here, and may or may not be because of him. Ruined is definitely too strong though. I mean he is obviously still our best player at the moment.

daschysta
07-19-2011, 02:17 PM
So just because I don't blame JOB for the heat wave means I wanted him to stay? Solid logic.

I am also not following your logic on how O'Brien ruined Granger? Wasn't Granger an all star under O'Brien?

I would love to know what areas, specifically, Roy will show dramatic improvement in now that Frank is the coach? Will he average 10 rebounds a game, 20 points, shoot 55% from the field? Since the evil JOB isn't the coach tell me how Roy's game will improve.

Noone is blaming JOB for everything, but it is you who is ignoring easily accesible evidence by capping roy's potential. In February Roy averaged 15 and 7.5 in only 30 minutes per game on around .500 percent from the field. Roy was dominate in October and November and looked like an all-star. Roy is one of the most skilled post players in the league, this much is clear, and noone can block his hook shot but himself. His problem was that he slimmed down so much last year that teams started using shorter guys with lower centers of gravity against him, and were able to easily push him out of the paint. This can be remedied by building core strength, adding muscle to his base, which since he slimmed down so much shouldn't be a problem.

Keeping in mind how he transformed his body last offseason, and knowing his work ethic, and knowing that he has identified his problem, what reason has he gave anyone to doubt that he won't come back more physically imposing, heck 2 years ago he didn't have the problem getting pushed out of the post, if he adds muscle he can be as strong as before, only quicker...

Per 36 roy already averages around 17 and 9, and has shown extended periods of 15 and 8 play in only about 30 minutes per game, implying that his peak is 15 and 8 leads one to believe you think roy has already peaked (clearly not true). Hibbert has everything he needs to be a top center in the game, he bulks up a bit and he has a chance to be pretty dominate relative to the weak current crop of centers in the NBA, he's a throwback and a unique talent these days, and is just as important to the future of the pacers as anyone, even paul george.

I could easily see hibbert averaging about 17 and 9 or perhaps more points if we aren't incredibly balanced offensively, which would be pretty safely all-star level at the center position. You've got to count on the talent that sets you apart from other teams, and if roy bulks up to where he can't be pushed around physically then he's a guy that most other teams don't really have a counter for, there is no stopping a hook shot from 7'2 when you have as much touch as Roy.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 02:34 PM
Noone is blaming JOB for everything, but it is you who is ignoring easily accesible evidence by capping roy's potential. In February Roy averaged 15 and 7.5 in only 30 minutes per game on around .500 percent from the field. Roy was dominate in October and November and looked like an all-star. Roy is one of the most skilled post players in the league, this much is clear, and noone can block his hook shot but himself. His problem was that he slimmed down so much last year that teams started using shorter guys with lower centers of gravity against him, and were able to easily push him out of the paint. This can be remedied by building core strength, adding muscle to his base, which since he slimmed down so much shouldn't be a problem.

Keeping in mind how he transformed his body last offseason, and knowing his work ethic, and knowing that he has identified his problem, what reason has he gave anyone to doubt that he won't come back more physically imposing, heck 2 years ago he didn't have the problem getting pushed out of the post, if he adds muscle he can be as strong as before, only quicker...

Per 36 roy already averages around 17 and 9, and has shown extended periods of 15 and 8 play in only about 30 minutes per game, implying that his peak is 15 and 8 leads one to believe you think roy has already peaked (clearly not true). Hibbert has everything he needs to be a top center in the game, he bulks up a bit and he has a chance to be pretty dominate relative to the weak current crop of centers in the NBA, he's a throwback and a unique talent these days, and is just as important to the future of the pacers as anyone, even paul george.

I could easily see hibbert averaging about 17 and 9 or perhaps more points if we aren't incredibly balanced offensively, which would be pretty safely all-star level at the center position. You've got to count on the talent that sets you apart from other teams, and if roy bulks up to where he can't be pushed around physically then he's a guy that most other teams don't really have a counter for, there is no stopping a hook shot from 7'2 when you have as much touch as Roy.

Please read my original post. I acknowledged Roy can look great at times, I did. The problem is he is wildly inconsistent. I think this can be evidenced with you acknowledging how good he did in October and November, gee wonder who Indiana's coach was during this time period? Nah, better not say, it might hurt some people's arguments.

Look, I get Roy is well liked and a popular guy. Reference his great games all you want, reference is per 36 or whatever all you want. If it makes you feel better go for it. It is funny how during the season people will kill Roy for his poor play (and deservedly so in Jan and Feb), but come offseason, when I make a comment about Roy not being an elite center people flock to his defense, blame JOB, and make every excuse in the world for him.

Please, next season if you are going to be a Roy apologist stay consistent. Roy is a good player, a serviceable center, but far from being elite. It is apparent many on this board think he is on a Pau Gasol level, which i disagree with.

daschysta
07-19-2011, 02:53 PM
Please read my original post. I acknowledged Roy can look great at times, I did. The problem is he is wildly inconsistent. I think this can be evidenced with you acknowledging how good he did in October and November, gee wonder who Indiana's coach was during this time period? Nah, better not say, it might hurt some people's arguments.

Look, I get Roy is well liked and a popular guy. Reference his great games all you want, reference is per 36 or whatever all you want. If it makes you feel better go for it. It is funny how during the season people will kill Roy for his poor play (and deservedly so in Jan and Feb), but come offseason, when I make a comment about Roy not being an elite center people flock to his defense, blame JOB, and make every excuse in the world for him.

Please, next season if you are going to be a Roy apologist stay consistent. Roy is a good player, a serviceable center, but far from being elite. It is apparent many on this board think he is on a Pau Gasol level, which i disagree with.

I'm not making the argument that roy was neccesarily all JOB. It is interesting that he had a revival under vogel though to an extent, as most would argue that JOB initially made some good moves with his strategy for roy, before returning to his old ways once roy slipped up the least bit.

Also yes roy is inconsistant, but centers take longer to develop than any other position, and his flashes of great play were actually pretty prolonged. He absolutely has shown the ability to be an elite center in this watered down league of big men, and he has great work ethic and a good attitude, I think roy will get there. Noone is claiming NOW he is as good as gasol, or that he will ever be (gasol is really, really, really good) but he's more of a power forward, while roy is a center, he presents a different matchup problem than Pau does.

Also you ignored the entire strength issue. It was abundantly clear that many, many of Roy's problems later in the season were due to an inability to hold post position due to his new, much slighter frame. Roy has come out and admitted that this is one of his huge focuses, and given how we've seen him hange his body in the past I have no doubt that he'll return with a much stronger base and core next season. If he does so, there is no reason he can't be an elite center next season, or the season after that. A prime of a center tends to be closer to 30 anyhow, roy has a ton of developing to do.

I didn't take exception with the fact that you weren't showering Roy with praise, it was just odd that you'd place such a low cap on his potential when he's demonstrated the ability to put up superior production to you 15/8 in less than 30 minutes for extended periods. Heck if he averaged about 32 mpg this year he'd be at or above those numbers. By making statements like that it seems that your implying that Roy has very little room to improve or that he's already maxed out, which imo, is pretty clearly not the case. Remember, consistancy is one of the last things that players add to their games, and for a center Roy is extremely young, he won't be entering his prime for at least 2-3 years.

Even if Roy did max out at his november level of play 16 and 10 with 3 assists and 2 blocks in 29 mpg... that IS elite, roy has shown plenty often that he can be unstoppable. People overblow roy's mindset too, a person isn't weak just because they admit they need help and seek it. In his prime Roy could be an elite offensive center in a league where only one or two others exist.

Things could go wrong, he cuold get injured, he could just never gain consistancy, but his "ceiling" is certainly quite a bit better than the 15/8 which he already far outproduces per 36, inconsistancy and all. Basically I don't see anyone claiming Roy is elite at this moment, but you saying he can never be elite, or that he hasn't shown the ability to do so in spurts, is what people are arguing with you about, you have to see that it's a bit silly to say he can never be anything more than a 15/8 player when he already averages 13/7.5 in only 27 minutes per game. JOB is also a big cause of the blame for SOME of roy's poor play in december and january, he CLEARLY changed the style of play that was working so well in november, and was on record publically berating roy and beating up on him despite his clearly improved play.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 03:25 PM
I'm not making the argument that roy was neccesarily all JOB. It is interesting that he had a revival under vogel though to an extent, as most would argue that JOB initially made some good moves with his strategy for roy, before returning to his old ways once roy slipped up the least bit.

Also yes roy is inconsistant, but centers take longer to develop than any other position, and his flashes of great play were actually pretty prolonged. He absolutely has shown the ability to be an elite center in this watered down league of big men, and he has great work ethic and a good attitude, I think roy will get there. Noone is claiming NOW he is as good as gasol, or that he will ever be (gasol is really, really, really good) but he's more of a power forward, while roy is a center, he presents a different matchup problem than Pau does.

Also you ignored the entire strength issue. It was abundantly clear that many, many of Roy's problems later in the season were due to an inability to hold post position due to his new, much slighter frame. Roy has come out and admitted that this is one of his huge focuses, and given how we've seen him hange his body in the past I have no doubt that he'll return with a much stronger base and core next season. If he does so, there is no reason he can't be an elite center next season, or the season after that. A prime of a center tends to be closer to 30 anyhow, roy has a ton of developing to do.

I didn't take exception with the fact that you weren't showering Roy with praise, it was just odd that you'd place such a low cap on his potential when he's demonstrated the ability to put up superior production to you 15/8 in less than 30 minutes for extended periods. Heck if he averaged about 32 mpg this year he'd be at or above those numbers. By making statements like that it seems that your implying that Roy has very little room to improve or that he's already maxed out, which imo, is pretty clearly not the case. Remember, consistancy is one of the last things that players add to their games, and for a center Roy is extremely young, he won't be entering his prime for at least 2-3 years.

Even if Roy did max out at his november level of play 16 and 10 with 3 assists and 2 blocks in 29 mpg... that IS elite, roy has shown plenty often that he can be unstoppable. People overblow roy's mindset too, a person isn't weak just because they admit they need help and seek it. In his prime Roy could be an elite offensive center in a league where only one or two others exist.

Things could go wrong, he cuold get injured, he could just never gain consistancy, but his "ceiling" is certainly quite a bit better than the 15/8 which he already far outproduces per 36, inconsistancy and all. Basically I don't see anyone claiming Roy is elite at this moment, but you saying he can never be elite, or that he hasn't shown the ability to do so in spurts, is what people are arguing with you about, you have to see that it's a bit silly to say he can never be anything more than a 15/8 player when he already averages 13/7.5 in only 27 minutes per game. JOB is also a big cause of the blame for SOME of roy's poor play in december and january, he CLEARLY changed the style of play that was working so well in november, and was on record publically berating roy and beating up on him despite his clearly improved play.

We just have differing views of what Roy is and can be capable of, we will just have to leave it at that. I am not saying you here, but there are a lot of people on the board that are pretty disillusion about some of our players. I am hearing about Roy being this very good center, Lance Stephenson having lottery type talent and Paul George becoming a future all star. I mean I hope all of this stuff is true, but geeze, is anyone willing to bet their next pay check on any of this stuff?

I like Roy, and Paul. I do. Roy is a serviceable starting center, the first one we have had since Smits. I appreciate him for that, but I think describing him as more than serviceable is going too far.

Paul is young and could be a really good player. That said, there are what 12 All Stars per year?

There are lots of bold statements being thrown around this offseason and I don't think many of them are realistic.

pacer4ever
07-19-2011, 05:15 PM
We just have differing views of what Roy is and can be capable of, we will just have to leave it at that. I am not saying you here, but there are a lot of people on the board that are pretty disillusion about some of our players. I am hearing about Roy being this very good center, Lance Stephenson having lottery type talent and Paul George becoming a future all star. I mean I hope all of this stuff is true, but geeze, is anyone willing to bet their next pay check on any of this stuff?

I like Roy, and Paul. I do. Roy is a serviceable starting center, the first one we have had since Smits. I appreciate him for that, but I think describing him as more than serviceable is going too far.

Paul is young and could be a really good player. That said, there are what 12 All Stars per year?

There are lots of bold statements being thrown around this offseason and I don't think many of them are realistic.

The all star game is overrated when i hear all star i assume all star caliber player i mean Lamarcus Aldrich was an all star last year IMO. But he didnt make the game. But he played at an all star level for the whole season IMO.

PacersPride
07-19-2011, 05:26 PM
I think at this point in his career we have to accept Roy for what he is. He is a top 15 center, but will probably never be a top 5 center or an elite player.

He will tease you and have monster games against Dwight Howard here and there, yet there will be stretches where he is absolutely invisible. Roy is not near as good as he shows flashes of being at times, but he is not as bad as the middle of the season this year would lead you to believe he is either.

Long story short is that Roy is serviceable at center, but certainly replaceable if something came along.


Above is your original statement. Roy is only in his 3rd year.. yet your saying the player Roy is today will be the same player he will become in 5 years. Im sorry but i think thats rediculous. You make solid points elsewhere, but I dont think many can say right now whether Roy will become an All star or just anohter solid contributor too a championship caliber team. I believe with Roys work ethic and additional experience, he could become a force on both ends of the court. Like i stated previously, maybe not a Shaq or Dwight Howard type of center, but a very solid player nonetheless. Basically, i disagree that Roy has reached his potential and that in 5 years from now he will still be the same player he is today. I think Roy will continue too improve each season until he reaches his prime which will be around 28 or so. Thats basically the point i was trying to make.

Serivicable center.. ?? would u classify Rik Smits as a servicable center.. ?? I think Roy has a chance too be as good a center as Smits was, not quite the offensive player Rik was, but a much better defender. servicable centers to me are more in line with a Jeff Foster.. and i love Fiesty, but he lacked offensive skills, and was more of the type he could play the position, but was not going too be one of the key players, Big Roy has a chance too be more than a "servicable center" imho.


So just because I don't blame JOB for the heat wave means I wanted him to stay? Solid logic.

I am also not following your logic on how O'Brien ruined Granger? Wasn't Granger an all star under O'Brien?

I would love to know what areas, specifically, Roy will show dramatic improvement in now that Frank is the coach? Will he average 10 rebounds a game, 20 points, shoot 55% from the field? Since the evil JOB isn't the coach tell me how Roy's game will improve.

Stop pussyfooting around the topic with absurd Obrien comments. Again, Obrien is a terrible :censored: coach imo because he was unwilling too adapt his system too the players, instead he wanted the players too adapt too his system, and for Big Roy that was not ever really going too happen. If u cant understand that then im wasting my time even responding too ur comment earlier. I dont really care if u wanna nitpick 1 reason of 6 I mentioned earlier why I feel Roy will be a better player 5 years from now than he is today.. but too defend Obrien.. thats complete :bs:

Perhaps "ruined" Granger was a strong term, but many on here have been killing Granger the last couple seasons and want him traded. Personally, I think Granger is a solid player, but I was hoping for more of lockdown defender in the role of Artest who could score. Obrien i think wanted Granger too mainly focus on his offense (specifically 3 pointers.. real shocker i know.. JoB emphasizing the 3:rolleyes:) over his ability too play defense. So in this sense the other posters are spot on.. under Obrien Granger developed some terrible habits. He needs too be a much more complete player than just a 3 point specialist. The fact Granger was an allstar under Obrien doesnt really hold much water imo.. u dont think Granger coulda become an allstar under Carlisle?? u sayin Obrien deserves all the credit for Danny making an allstar team.. yea right:laugh:

You wanna know how Roy will improve.... you said above in ur first post.. "roy will be wildly inconsistent" you stated. Roy will certainly improve more in terms of consistency. learning what his role is on the team.. lets be honest under Obrien, im not sure Roy ever felt comfortable with his role. Other areas Roy will improve on will defense, knowing how too rotate over etc. I see so many small things that if Roy did differently he could significantly impact the results in a different manner. With experience, will come more consistency. With more strenght Roy will become even more of a defensive presense. And with a more structured offensive system, that is conducive too a player of Roys talents, along with a coach who has a clue, Roy should be able too define and role and become much more confident in what he needs too do on the court.

Bottom line: Roy will be a much better player in 5 years from now, than the player he is today.. there is no doubt imo u will be proven wrong on your earlier hasty assumption.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 06:01 PM
Above is your original statement. Roy is only in his 3rd year.. yet your saying the player Roy is today will be the same player he will become in 5 years. Im sorry but i think thats rediculous. You make solid points elsewhere, but I dont think many can say right now whether Roy will become an All star or just anohter solid contributor too a championship caliber team. I believe with Roys work ethic and additional experience, he could become a force on both ends of the court. Like i stated previously, maybe not a Shaq or Dwight Howard type of center, but a very solid player nonetheless. Basically, i disagree that Roy has reached his potential and that in 5 years from now he will still be the same player he is today. I think Roy will continue too improve each season until he reaches his prime which will be around 28 or so. Thats basically the point i was trying to make.

Serivicable center.. ?? would u classify Rik Smits as a servicable center.. ?? I think Roy has a chance too be as good a center as Smits was, not quite the offensive player Rik was, but a much better defender. servicable centers to me are more in line with a Jeff Foster.. and i love Fiesty, but he lacked offensive skills, and was more of the type he could play the position, but was not going too be one of the key players, Big Roy has a chance too be more than a "servicable center" imho.



Stop pussyfooting around the topic with absurd Obrien comments. Again, Obrien is a terrible :censored: coach imo because he was unwilling too adapt his system too the players, instead he wanted the players too adapt too his system, and for Big Roy that was not ever really going too happen. If u cant understand that then im wasting my time even responding too ur comment earlier. I dont really care if u wanna nitpick 1 reason of 6 I mentioned earlier why I feel Roy will be a better player 5 years from now than he is today.. but too defend Obrien.. thats complete :bs:

Perhaps "ruined" Granger was a strong term, but many on here have been killing Granger the last couple seasons and want him traded. Personally, I think Granger is a solid player, but I was hoping for more of lockdown defender in the role of Artest who could score. Obrien i think wanted Granger too mainly focus on his offense (specifically 3 pointers.. real shocker i know.. JoB emphasizing the 3:rolleyes:) over his ability too play defense. So in this sense the other posters are spot on.. under Obrien Granger developed some terrible habits. He needs too be a much more complete player than just a 3 point specialist. The fact Granger was an allstar under Obrien doesnt really hold much water imo.. u dont think Granger coulda become an allstar under Carlisle?? u sayin Obrien deserves all the credit for Danny making an allstar team.. yea right:laugh:

You wanna know how Roy will improve.... you said above in ur first post.. "roy will be wildly inconsistent" you stated. Roy will certainly improve more in terms of consistency. learning what his role is on the team.. lets be honest under Obrien, im not sure Roy ever felt comfortable with his role. Other areas Roy will improve on will defense, knowing how too rotate over etc. I see so many small things that if Roy did differently he could significantly impact the results in a different manner. With experience, will come more consistency. With more strenght Roy will become even more of a defensive presense. And with a more structured offensive system, that is conducive too a player of Roys talents, along with a coach who has a clue, Roy should be able too define and role and become much more confident in what he needs too do on the court.

Bottom line: Roy will be a much better player in 5 years from now, than the player he is today.. there is no doubt imo u will be proven wrong on your earlier hasty assumption.

Alright, we shall see, for comparison here are some guys numbers who would back up what I am talking about. For those that will take this the wrong way I am talking about centers and their career progressions from there third year and forward.

Tyson Chandler 3rd full season- 8 ppg/9.7 rpg/1.8 blocks per game
Tyson Chandler best season after 3- 11.8bpg/11.7rpg/1.1 blocks per game

Joakim Noah 3rd season- 10.7 ppg/11.7 rpg/1.6 Bpg
Joakim Noah 4th season- 11.7 ppg/10.7 rpg/1.5 bpg

Andrew Bogut- 3rd season- 14.3/9.8/1.7
Andrew Bogut best season after 3- 15.9/10.2/2.5

Andrew Bynum 3rd season- 13.1/10.2/2.1
Andrew Bynum best season after 3- 15/8.3/1.4

Emeka Okafor 3rd season- 14.4/11.3/2.6
Has not had a better year after 3

I am not saying Roy can’t improve, sure he can. I like what the guy said about getting his field goal % up and things like that. The fact of the matter is Roy might improve some, but I don’t see his production making great leaps and bounds like some are alluding to. I could have included probably 10 more names on this list that may have modest improvements after year three, but are still in the same neighborhood production wise. And for all you, “JOB stinks” people, and all of you “Roy is a hard worker” people, guess what? The guys on this list work hard and have had some bad coaches as well. The situation some of you describe and excuses some of you make for Roy aren’t exactly unique around the league.

Also, lets remember, while Roy will be entering his 4th year, he also stayed in college for four years. Lets not forget his age here either. It isn’t like he is 21 or 22. His age says he is just about in the prime of his career.

I am sure you can find me a guy or two at the center position that took off after his third year. Great. The fact of the matter is those guys are EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. The rule itself is that 24 year old centers with three years experience may improve, but it is not likely they make some monumental strides like some are calling for in this thread.

As far as Roy being solid I really don’t understand why people are killing me on this. Roy is a solid, top 15 center in the NBA. Hence the words “serviceable STARTING CENTER”. Is he a top 5 center? Top 10 center? I am saying no. If you disagree, well fine, but this is where I am coming from. Smits IMO is a good comparison. Although their games aren’t exactly similar production wise and consistency wise I think they stack up pretty well together (and I was a pretty big Smits fan).

And kill O’Brien all you want, I was never his biggest fan, or hater, but the man somehow landed 3 head coaching gigs. Not too bad for the “idiot” some of you make him out to be.

Look, I like Roy, I do. And I realize why I am taking heat. He buys people tickets to games, he shows up on the news, has a great personality, makes little kids laugh and saves whales. He is a terrific guy and a guy who represents the Pacer organization better than any player we have had in recent memory. You guys root for him and love him, which is great. I am just trying to be realistic about who he is and what he will become. From my vantage point he is solid and will continue to be solid, but if you are expecting him to be more than that you are going to be disappointed IMO.

yoadknux
07-19-2011, 07:43 PM
This is a bad list :rolleyes:

daschysta
07-19-2011, 08:06 PM
Alright, we shall see, for comparison here are some guys numbers who would back up what I am talking about. For those that will take this the wrong way I am talking about centers and their career progressions from there third year and forward.

Tyson Chandler 3rd full season- 8 ppg/9.7 rpg/1.8 blocks per game
Tyson Chandler best season after 3- 11.8bpg/11.7rpg/1.1 blocks per game

Joakim Noah 3rd season- 10.7 ppg/11.7 rpg/1.6 Bpg
Joakim Noah 4th season- 11.7 ppg/10.7 rpg/1.5 bpg

Andrew Bogut- 3rd season- 14.3/9.8/1.7
Andrew Bogut best season after 3- 15.9/10.2/2.5

Andrew Bynum 3rd season- 13.1/10.2/2.1
Andrew Bynum best season after 3- 15/8.3/1.4

Emeka Okafor 3rd season- 14.4/11.3/2.6
Has not had a better year after 3

I am not saying Roy can’t improve, sure he can. I like what the guy said about getting his field goal % up and things like that. The fact of the matter is Roy might improve some, but I don’t see his production making great leaps and bounds like some are alluding to. I could have included probably 10 more names on this list that may have modest improvements after year three, but are still in the same neighborhood production wise. And for all you, “JOB stinks” people, and all of you “Roy is a hard worker” people, guess what? The guys on this list work hard and have had some bad coaches as well. The situation some of you describe and excuses some of you make for Roy aren’t exactly unique around the league.

Also, lets remember, while Roy will be entering his 4th year, he also stayed in college for four years. Lets not forget his age here either. It isn’t like he is 21 or 22. His age says he is just about in the prime of his career.

I am sure you can find me a guy or two at the center position that took off after his third year. Great. The fact of the matter is those guys are EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. The rule itself is that 24 year old centers with three years experience may improve, but it is not likely they make some monumental strides like some are calling for in this thread.

As far as Roy being solid I really don’t understand why people are killing me on this. Roy is a solid, top 15 center in the NBA. Hence the words “serviceable STARTING CENTER”. Is he a top 5 center? Top 10 center? I am saying no. If you disagree, well fine, but this is where I am coming from. Smits IMO is a good comparison. Although their games aren’t exactly similar production wise and consistency wise I think they stack up pretty well together (and I was a pretty big Smits fan).

And kill O’Brien all you want, I was never his biggest fan, or hater, but the man somehow landed 3 head coaching gigs. Not too bad for the “idiot” some of you make him out to be.

Look, I like Roy, I do. And I realize why I am taking heat. He buys people tickets to games, he shows up on the news, has a great personality, makes little kids laugh and saves whales. He is a terrific guy and a guy who represents the Pacer organization better than any player we have had in recent memory. You guys root for him and love him, which is great. I am just trying to be realistic about who he is and what he will become. From my vantage point he is solid and will continue to be solid, but if you are expecting him to be more than that you are going to be disappointed IMO.

Smits was an all-star in an era of much stronger big men.

spazzxb
07-19-2011, 08:07 PM
Noone is blaming JOB for everything.

Saying something wasn't his fault used to be fighting words around here.

Why did people decide to discuss Voldemort? Wether you right wrong or some screwed up position in between there is no good to come from it.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 08:11 PM
This is a bad list :rolleyes:

Thanks for that constructive comment. Please, feel free to come up with a list of your own or contribute in some way shape or form on the thread.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 08:13 PM
Smits was an all-star in an era of much stronger big men.

Good point. I looked at Smits numbers and his scoring was a lot more than I seemed to remember.

Anthem
07-19-2011, 09:56 PM
Danny's two biggest problems over the past two years were his penchant for long jumpers and his lack of effort on D.

It's not really that hard to see a relationship between those two problems and O'Brien's coaching, is it?

pizza guy
07-19-2011, 10:33 PM
This is a bad list :rolleyes:

I agree. The argument is that Hibbert could improve, so you pull a few guys who improved very little without pulling up anyone who really did improve.

Jermaine O'Neal's first 4 years he averaged 3.75/3.05. After that, he jumped to 13/10 in his first year with us, and followed with 6 straight ~20ppg/10rpg seasons, scoring his career-high 24ppg in his 9th season. Those numbers may be skewed because he came straight out of high school and basically went to college at Portland Trailblazers U.

Hakeem was quite good, but didn't have his best statistical seasons until 10 years in the league.

Shaq, who was other-worldly from the start, had his best season in his 8th year.

I'm not trying to say that Hibbert will be as good as any of those three, but to limit him, in his third season, by saying he is what he is, just doesn't make sense. We've seen him grow every year, and we all know that a big man's learning curve is a little slower. Hibbert has the body, the touch, and the desire to be much, much better than he is now.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 10:38 PM
I agree. The argument is that Hibbert could improve, so you pull a few guys who improved very little without pulling up anyone who really did improve.

Jermaine O'Neal's first 4 years he averaged 3.75/3.05. After that, he jumped to 13/10 in his first year with us, and followed with 6 straight ~20ppg/10rpg seasons, scoring his career-high 24ppg in his 9th season. Those numbers may be skewed because he came straight out of high school and basically went to college at Portland Trailblazers U.

Hakeem was quite good, but didn't have his best statistical seasons until 10 years in the league.

Shaq, who was other-worldly from the start, had his best season in his 8th year.

I'm not trying to say that Hibbert will be as good as any of those three, but to limit him, in his third season, by saying he is what he is, just doesn't make sense. We've seen him grow every year, and we all know that a big man's learning curve is a little slower. Hibbert has the body, the touch, and the desire to be much, much better than he is now.

And if you read my entire post you would see I recognized there are exceptions to the rule. For every exception you can find I could probably find 10 guys that fit what I am trying to say. Please read the entire post next time.

joew8302
07-19-2011, 10:44 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

Check out Shaq and Hakeem. Neither showed remarkable improvement after their third season. Two of the guys you mentioned fit the point I am trying to make. No one saying Hibbert can't improve, but to think that Hibbert will improve dramatically would be foolish. History says 24 year old centers entering their 4th year might refine different parts of their game, but drastic improvement doesn't happen very often.

Kraft
07-19-2011, 11:21 PM
Generally, what Hibbert is now is what he's going to be. There will be slight improvements, and that may be enough, depending on the talent that surrounds him.

But to think he's going to start averaging much more than 14-15 points per game or double-digit rebounds is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

If anything, I'd rather just see the defense improve a lot more than anything else. Then no one would be frustrated by an inconsistent scorer and mediocre rebounder.

Kemo
07-20-2011, 12:40 AM
Wasn't Granger an all star despite O'Brien?




fixed for posterity .. lol

Kemo
07-20-2011, 12:59 AM
Roy is a good player, a serviceable center, but far from being elite. It is apparent many on this board think he is on a Pau Gasol level, which i disagree with.

One word in response ..... "YET" ...

True , he is not an elite center, and he is not on the same level as Pau Gasol .......... yet ...


Hell , Roy may never be "elite" nor a top 5 center in the NBA ...
But I believe he has almost every quality TO be , if he continues working and striving to be the best he can possibly be ..

They say you cannot teach height .. while that is true ..

I say , to an extent.. you cannot truly teach work ethic .. Either a person has it , or they don't ..
As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water , but you can't make him drink .. Same thing with work ethic .. Either a person is a hard worker who will do whatever it takes to get better and make their team better......
or they are not , and don't ..

Some guys in the league can get by on work ethic, hustle .. and athleticism alone , as well as any of the other specific roles a player may be specialized in ..

Lucky for us and Roy , he has all the ingredients ... tangible as well as intangible ... to be a VERY good center ...

I think , that if Roy continues working hard ... that he will meet and exceed all the expectations that his potential indicates...


.

Kemo
07-20-2011, 01:10 AM
I am hearing about Roy being this very good center, Lance Stephenson having lottery type talent and Paul George becoming a future all star. I mean I hope all of this stuff is true, but geeze, is anyone willing to bet their next pay check on any of this stuff?


If I were a betting man... SURE... I would... I'd bet on Paul George and Roy Hibbert BOTH becoming an All Star at least once in their respective careers..

As far as Lance.... way way too early to even begin to guess...

Give him a full season of consistant PT , and I think he would prove his own case... In terms of how good he is ..

.

spazzxb
07-20-2011, 01:13 AM
Danny's two biggest problems over the past two years were his penchant for long jumpers and his lack of effort on D.

It's not really that hard to see a relationship between those two problems and O'Brien's coaching, is it?

Danny biggest issue is was that he had a green light and was expected to be a high volume scorer. This had as much or even more to do with a lack of talent around him as it did with the coach. Just like JOB didn't keep Mcroberts from being a star. No coach was going to win with our post Golden-state trade team especially after we lost Dunleavy. I am defending nothing but the right to look past the scapegoat to the real issues noone, however Danny was a chucker because our next best scoring option was Jarrett Jack.

Jermane Oneal was never healthy post brawl, Ron Artest went crazy, all Harrington wasn't much better than the scrub he was traded for, and the fans ran Stephen Jackson out of town(Murphleavy). There were plenty of reasons this team sucked for a couple seasons that had nothing to do with the coach. Why don't some of you blame Donnie Walsh.

CableKC
07-20-2011, 03:34 AM
Danny's two biggest problems over the past two years were his penchant for long jumpers and his lack of effort on D.

It's not really that hard to see a relationship between those two problems and O'Brien's coaching, is it?
I'd assume that a valid question would be whether Granger's penchant for jumpshots and his effort on defense changed after J'OB left and Vogel took over. :shrug: