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A.B.Hollywood
07-13-2011, 04:25 PM
Summary from Rotoworld.com:


Free agent David West's ACL tear was a "clean injury," according to his physical therapist.
If there is such a thing as a "good" ACL tear, West had it. His knee ripped clean, not damaging any other ligaments or nerves around his knee. It's also a strong sign that West opted out of a $7.5 million contract in order to become a free agent. We're starting to become more confident that he can be effective right out of the gate whenever the NBA resumes

and the source itself (which is just a good read in general):

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/07/13/1340660/david-west-busy-during-lockout.html

Agree or disagree about this man but the Pacers definitely seem to be interested. The more this plays out the more likely it is to me that we will make some kind of 3-4 year offer in the 7-9 million range.

And before everyone complains yes, he's been discussed at length already I know, so I wanted to focus this mainly on the progress of his ACL injury specifically and that maybe the comparisons to others who made solid quick recoveries is more apt here.

Since86
07-13-2011, 04:36 PM
Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.

microwave_oven
07-13-2011, 04:51 PM
Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.

Completely false. When an ACL is repaired, it is actually replaced with a larger, stronger tendon than the original ligament. If it is repaired correctly, the simulated ligament is actually stronger than the original.

In many cases the athlete is actually less susceptible to injury after the surgery. Having not damaged any other ligaments or cartilage is a strong indication that he will come back even stronger.

A.B.Hollywood
07-13-2011, 04:51 PM
Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.

Well that applies to every player. Anyone can tear well... anything.

The point here is that it didn't have the residual effects that many other big men seem to have when there is an ACL tear. This is part of the reason why its so common for other smaller players in basketball and football to come back from ACL injuries relatively well but big men had struggled.

It doesn't make me think he is in the clear by a long shot but it does make me feel a bit better about it as a whole and maybe the comparison is better to say a Baron Davis and his ACL tear vs. Jermaine and his.

Since86
07-13-2011, 04:55 PM
False? My degree is in exercise science, with a minor in athletic training, which is a pre-req for phsyical therapy etc. I'm pretty sure I know the subject but anyways.

I can tell you names of mutliple friends, not even athletes, that have had multiple ACL tears. One friend was actually told that if she tore it again, they wouldn't be able to replace it. Another has had 3 surgeries on the same leg's ACL.

Peyton Stovall played for BSU and tore his ACL twice, the last game of his Jr year, and then retore it early into his Sr. year, so he sat out the full year to rehab and got a medical redshirt for a 5th year of eligibility.

Since86
07-13-2011, 04:59 PM
Well that applies to every player. Anyone can tear well... anything.

The point here is that it didn't have the residual effects that many other big men seem to have when there is an ACL tear. This is part of the reason why its so common for other smaller players in basketball and football to come back from ACL injuries relatively well but big men had struggled.

It doesn't make me think he is in the clear by a long shot but it does make me feel a bit better about it as a whole and maybe the comparison is better to say a Baron Davis and his ACL tear vs. Jermaine and his.

You normally don't just tear just your ACL, or LCL, or whatever. You usually tear multiple pieces, which makes the whole knee even weaker as a whole once it's healed.

All they're saying is that the rest of his knee has stayed structurally sound at the other points, not saying he's at less of a risk of re-injury.

EDIT: The knee is going to strengthen the longer it stays healthy. But just because they only had to fix the ACL, doesn't mean that he's going to have less risk. It's still risky, he can still retear it.

microwave_oven
07-13-2011, 05:01 PM
In those cases the surgery was not performed correctly. If it is performed correctly, it will be stronger. Of that I can assure you.

Often times the surgery is performed with tendons from cadavers which, after time, begin to deteriorate.

MillerTime
07-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Summary from Rotoworld.com:



and the source itself (which is just a good read in general):

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/07/13/1340660/david-west-busy-during-lockout.html

Agree or disagree about this man but the Pacers definitely seem to be interested. The more this plays out the more likely it is to me that we will make some kind of 3-4 year offer in the 7-9 million range.

And before everyone complains yes, he's been discussed at length already I know, so I wanted to focus this mainly on the progress of his ACL injury specifically and that maybe the comparisons to others who made solid quick recoveries is more apt here.

West made $8,287,500 last season. I would assume that he would demand more than that amount.

It is really hard to say how much he can expect pending the new CBA.

If the CBA is relatively similar to the prior CBA, I could see West fetching something like 5 years / $50 million (at least)

Since86
07-13-2011, 05:08 PM
In those cases the surgery was not performed correctly. If it is performed correctly, it will be stronger. Of that I can assure you.

Often times the surgery is performed with tendons from cadavers which, after time, begin to deteriorate.

Then why do players usually wear a brace after they've injured their ACL? For comfort?



No ideal graft site for ACL reconstruction exists; they all have advantages and disadvantages. Patella tendon grafts are still considered the historical "gold standard" for knee stability by surgeons, however they suffer a slightly higher complication rate, including knee pain such as when doing a lunge.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-4>[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cruciate_ligament_reconstruction#cite_not e-4)</SUP>

Hamstring grafts historically had problems with fixation slippage and stretching out over time. Modern fixation methods of hamstrings avoid graft slippage, producing outcomes that are the same in terms of knee stability with easier rehabilitation, less anterior knee pain and less joint stiffness.

An allograft is a graft from a corpse, usually either a patellar tendon, hamstring tendon, and occasionally an achilles tendon. The advantage of an allograft is the patient does not sustain additional injury through removing a tendon, thus making it faster to recover. The disadvantage is the risk of infection by using foreign bodily materials and the graft is known to be slightly weaker. <SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-5>[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cruciate_ligament_reconstruction#cite_not e-5)</SUP>

A lesser known, but newer type of graft is a synthetic graft. Little data exists on its strength or reliability, but patients should be aware that the option exists. Typically, age and lifestyle choices help decide the type of graft to be used for ACL reconstruction. The overall factors in knee stability are correct graft placement by the surgeon and treatment of other menisco-ligament injuries in the knee, rather than choice of graft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cruciate_ligament_reconstruction

luis3ep
07-13-2011, 05:10 PM
West made $8,287,500 last season. I would assume that he would demand more than that amount.

It is really hard to say how much he can expect pending the new CBA.

If the CBA is relatively similar to the prior CBA, I could see West fetching something like 5 years / $50 million (at least)

5 yrs 50 million dollars? Hopefully the pacers don't make a big mistake and sign him for a big, lengthy contract like that. That kind of money needs to be spent on elite players, not a solid player with a torn acl who's past his prime.

ECKrueger
07-13-2011, 05:13 PM
False? My degree is in exercise science, with a minor in athletic training, which is a pre-req for phsyical therapy etc. I'm pretty sure I know the subject but anyways.

I can tell you names of mutliple friends, not even athletes, that have had multiple ACL tears. One friend was actually told that if she tore it again, they wouldn't be able to replace it. Another has had 3 surgeries on the same leg's ACL.

Peyton Stovall played for BSU and tore his ACL twice, the last game of his Jr year, and then retore it early into his Sr. year, so he sat out the full year to rehab and got a medical redshirt for a 5th year of eligibility.

Robbie Hummel is my least favorite example of this.

vnzla81
07-13-2011, 05:32 PM
Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.

Don't forget that his bones are also old :D

A.B.Hollywood
07-13-2011, 05:32 PM
West made $8,287,500 last season. I would assume that he would demand more than that amount.

It is really hard to say how much he can expect pending the new CBA.

If the CBA is relatively similar to the prior CBA, I could see West fetching something like 5 years / $50 million (at least)

I looked at it as one year and one year older and his longer term prospects would be gone. Its not that he turned down 8 million this year its that it was a one year deal. 8 million for 4 years and he takes it.

This is of course complete speculation though. You very well could be right that 5 years 50 million is what it would take but assuming there is a season the other bidders out there I don't think will be offering that and the number will go down. I like our chances for 4 years 35 million.

A.B.Hollywood
07-13-2011, 05:38 PM
5 yrs 50 million dollars? Hopefully the pacers don't make a big mistake and sign him for a big, lengthy contract like that. That kind of money needs to be spent on elite players, not a solid player with a torn acl who's past his prime.

I agree with this statement. But I also want to point out it also applies, word for word, with Nene as well only for MORE money. Significantly more even.

Assuming you consider ~30 past their prime. Which is arguable.

BornReady
07-13-2011, 06:50 PM
sorry to go off topic, but Since, does it work the same with with an achilles rupture?

graphic-er
07-13-2011, 06:58 PM
Gosh i hope the Pacers pass on this cat. If we sign this guy to a 5 year deal he is only gonna end up playing 3 seasons worth of games for us, and you'll see his averages drop every year he his here. Not to mention the weak front court defense we'll have in the starting unit.

I don't care what his PE says, he is talking about rehab, not about a full blown 82 game season. We'll see how strong that ACL is after about 50 games. Isn't this an injury that requires almost 2 years of rehab to be back at full strength? How can this guy be ready to go in only 6-8 months.

I hope i'll be wrong, but I just don't feel it will work out that way.

graphic-er
07-13-2011, 07:04 PM
Then why do players usually wear a brace after they've injured their ACL? For comfort?



Dude I tried to use that reasoning way back a few months ago when this injury happened. Nobody seems to realize that when a player wears a knee brace its because that knee is weaker than the other one and more prone to reinjury. In fact the longer a player relies on a knee brace the weaker the knee becomes over time. Everyone seems to think that a 30 year old's knees with 10 years in the NBA has just as strong knees as a 20 year old with none. :laugh:

Eleazar
07-13-2011, 09:07 PM
Peyton Stovall played for BSU and tore his ACL twice, the last game of his Jr year, and then retore it early into his Sr. year

In this case there is about a 95% certainty that the reason it tore again was because it wasn't completely healed, not because it is weaker. It usually takes athletes at least 2 years to become 100% again, and only then do you see them returning to their normal strength.

Other than that though you are right about it not coming back stronger, at least not significantly stronger. Often times when an athlete do tear a ligament when they come back they suffer from more injuries because their joint isn't as strong. Look at Edge the first season or two after his injury he missed a ton of games because of knee injuries. Even if it comes back stronger it takes a while.



To me all this says about West is that his recovery time will be faster, but chances are it will be at least 1 full season until he is 100%. By then he could easily be on the downhill side of his career.

neosmndrew
07-13-2011, 09:34 PM
Call me uninformed if you want, but can someone tell me more about David West's game? From what I've read, he's a 20ppg guy with a good PG (DC seems to fit that bill), though he may or may not be a true post up guy. Anyone able to give me some deets?

Psyren
07-13-2011, 09:46 PM
Call me uninformed if you want, but can someone tell me more about David West's game? From what I've read, he's a 20ppg guy with a good PG (DC seems to fit that bill), though he may or may not be a true post up guy. Anyone able to give me some deets?

Excellent mid range shooter. One of the best at coming off the Pick N' Roll. Average rebounder. Average defender. Decent post player.

His big advantage would be running the Pick N' Roll with DC or whoever is running the point. West is exceptional at just catching and shooting mid-range jumpers all game long.

vnzla81
07-13-2011, 09:57 PM
Call me uninformed if you want, but can someone tell me more about David West's game? From what I've read, he's a 20ppg guy with a good PG (DC seems to fit that bill), though he may or may not be a true post up guy. Anyone able to give me some deets?

Imagine Boozer in Utah, no defense and lucky enough to have a really good point guard with him.

troyc11a
07-13-2011, 10:10 PM
Imagine Boozer in Utah, no defense and lucky enough to have a really good point guard with him.

Boozer is really much better than West. Boozer is more athletic and rebounds better. West is less athletic, coming off knee surgery, but does have a mid-range jumper. West would be a good backup for Tyler.

imawhat
07-13-2011, 10:55 PM
West is a good player. He played well before and without Chris Paul. He's probably the best option in this market. I don't want him but I wouldn't be upset if we got him.

They should do a report on his other knee.

Kemo
07-13-2011, 11:07 PM
It seems like alot of the re-injuries , or injuries to something else ...could occur due to the player over-compensating ..

PR07
07-13-2011, 11:46 PM
I've rarely heard of any player that has come back stronger after an ACL tear. If anything, even if the knee is structurally sound, West is bound to lose at least some explosiveness.

D0NT SH0OT ME
07-14-2011, 01:02 AM
You normally don't just tear just your ACL, or LCL, or whatever. You usually tear multiple pieces, which makes the whole knee even weaker as a whole once it's healed.

All they're saying is that the rest of his knee has stayed structurally sound at the other points, not saying he's at less of a risk of re-injury.

EDIT: The knee is going to strengthen the longer it stays healthy. But just because they only had to fix the ACL, doesn't mean that he's going to have less risk. It's still risky, he can still retear it.


Your point about multiple ligaments almost always being torn is false. The most common injury is to tear the single ligament, which is closely followed by the second most common injury, which is to tear a ligament along with your meniscus. The meniscus is a piece of cartilage that helps the knee maintain its structural integrity. Since the meniscus is cartilage and therefore does not have blood vessels flowing throughout it, healing this injury is practically impossible. The only way an injury to the meniscus can heal is if the tear is near the outside of the cartilage, where some blood vessels can reach the area. If the tear is more serious than this, the meniscus is almost always cut off.

As for the strength of an ACL reconstruction, it all depends on the type of surgery done. There are three main types of ACL reconstructive surgery, a patellar tendon graft, a hamstring graft, or a cadaver graft. A patellar tendon graft utilizes a ligament that is much stronger than a normal ACL, so if rehab is done correctly, the new ACL will be stronger than a normal human's. The main downsides to a patellar tendon graft are that kneeling becomes extremely painful for many years post-op and that there is a risk of fracturing the kneecap during surgery. A hamstring graft is not as evasive of a surgery and patients generally do not experience pain in the location the graft was taken from, but the tendon loses alot of its original strength once it is harvested and ends up being weaker than a normal ACL. Both of these surgeries usually take 6 months to heal from. A cadaver graft is the weakest of all three but takes the least time to heal from (about 4 months).

My main point is that if just the ACL is torn (which is the case for David West), and a patellar tendon surgery is performed correctly, the ACL will be stronger than it originally was.


Then why do players usually wear a brace after they've injured their ACL? For comfort?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cruciate_ligament_reconstruction


The braces you commonly see NBA players wearing are not for knee support, they are simply a compression sleeve to keep swelling down, which is a common occurrence even years after knee surgery. Braces that actually support the knee are like the one that Robbie Hummel wears, or like the ones that NFL lineman commonly wear. When an ACL reconstruction surgery is performed correctly, a brace is not needed.

Eleazar
07-14-2011, 02:03 AM
I don't know about you, but I have seen years of athletes (not your average person) who have torn ligaments, and it is rare for them to come back with the same athleticism. Their knees are never stronger (maybe equal, but not stronger), and it always takes at least 1 year for them to feel 100% again. 6 months may be the time that is necessary to be technically healed, as in you can start putting stress on it again. As well for athletes it does seem quite common to do more damage than just tear one ligament. I'm not sure if it is more common to do more damage, but it defiantly isn't uncommon.

Peck
07-14-2011, 02:17 AM
In all honesty his knee is not the issue for me, his game is.

Nice player & would work well paired with Dwight Howard but as we all know Roy is no Dwight.

Our problem is we need a rugged defender/rebounder/pick setter at the four preferably with some height on them.

Would he be better and more consistant than Tyler? Yes, but that doesn't mean he would bring to the court what our team needs.

I'd rather not lay out any of our long sought after money on him, but maybe that's just me.

pacer4ever
07-14-2011, 02:20 AM
In all honesty his knee is not the issue for me, his game is.

Nice player & would work well paired with Dwight Howard but as we all know Roy is no Dwight.

Our problem is we need a rugged defender/rebounder/pick setter at the four preferably with some height on them.

Would he be better and more consistant than Tyler? Yes, but that doesn't mean he would bring to the court what our team needs.

I'd rather not lay out any of our long sought after money on him, but maybe that's just me.

we need a Reggie Evans Serge Ibaka type player

D0NT SH0OT ME
07-14-2011, 03:43 AM
I don't know about you, but I have seen years of athletes (not your average person) who have torn ligaments, and it is rare for them to come back with the same athleticism. Their knees are never stronger (maybe equal, but not stronger), and it always takes at least 1 year for them to feel 100% again. 6 months may be the time that is necessary to be technically healed, as in you can start putting stress on it again. As well for athletes it does seem quite common to do more damage than just tear one ligament. I'm not sure if it is more common to do more damage, but it defiantly isn't uncommon.


My post was about the strength of the ACL, not the entire knee. As with any invasive surgery after your knee is operated upon it will not be the same. Scar tissue will form, swelling will regularly occur, and pain will be a common occurrence. While all of these physical symptoms do have an affect on the athlete, they are not the main reason it takes some people much longer to recover. Rehab is the most crucial part of a knee surgery, and it is quite easy to mess it up. Push yourself too hard and you risk re-injuring the knee. Take it too slow and your muscles could start atrophying. The body also involuntarily favors the other leg after a knee surgery, which affects almost everything you do athletically. It is very important for any athlete to overcome their body's tendency to favor the uninjured leg.

Also, my point about the frequency of different types of injuries in the knee was referring to all cases of knee injuries, not just those present amongst athletes. It is quite common for professional athletes to completely destroy every ligament in their knee due to their unproportional muscle mass.

31andonly
07-14-2011, 04:47 AM
I don't know...no matter what's going on with West's injury, but since the annual Jermaine-back-to-dominance-drama, I'd rather shy away of Power Forwards with knee injuries.

The Jackson shimmy
07-14-2011, 06:39 AM
I've rarely heard of any player that has come back stronger after an ACL tear. If anything, even if the knee is structurally sound, West is bound to lose at least some explosiveness.


I don't really want West (particularly at his likely price tag). But his
game doesn't rely on 'explosiveness'. He plays a 'below the rim' game
based on fundamentals.

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 08:55 AM
I don't really want West (particularly at his likely price tag). But his
game doesn't rely on 'explosiveness'. He plays a 'below the rim' game
based on fundamentals.

Are you sure you are talking about West? Below the rim? Huh?

Gamble1
07-14-2011, 09:21 AM
In all honesty his knee is not the issue for me, his game is.

Nice player & would work well paired with Dwight Howard but as we all know Roy is no Dwight.

Our problem is we need a rugged defender/rebounder/pick setter at the four preferably with some height on them.

Would he be better and more consistant than Tyler? Yes, but that doesn't mean he would bring to the court what our team needs.

I'd rather not lay out any of our long sought after money on him, but maybe that's just me.
Ya Peck but you've been barking up that tree for awhile now and management stilll disagrees with you. Basically Foster fullfills that role.

I don't think West is the player that will put us in contention but he could be apart of the equation. I think West is a good pick setter the whole rugged part could easily be adressed with another signing.

Edit: I am glad we have so many knee experts on this board. I have seen a ACL surgery. ITs not as invasive as years past but I would not make an argument over a knee brace after that surgery.

Since86
07-14-2011, 09:28 AM
YBoth of these surgeries usually take 6 months to heal from. A cadaver graft is the weakest of all three but takes the least time to heal from (about 4 months).

I'm not going to go through and refute your post point by point, because you make some huge errors in what your saying.

6 months? Are you kidding me? 6 months would be a mircale. Try more like 9months to a full year, and then even more time to be completely 100%.

6 months? Holy crap you don't know what you're talking about.

EDIT: Oh, and I thought I'd point out that you don't know what a meniscus does either. Your meniscus isn't for structural intergrity, it's for comfort. They sit inbetween your femur and tibia/fibula. It's a cushion so your bones don't rub on each other. It doesn't provide support.


The braces you commonly see NBA players wearing are not for knee support, they are simply a compression sleeve to keep swelling down, which is a common occurrence even years after knee surgery. Braces that actually support the knee are like the one that Robbie Hummel wears, or like the ones that NFL lineman commonly wear. When an ACL reconstruction surgery is performed correctly, a brace is not needed.

Oh really?

http://www.betterbraces.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/235x235/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/d/o/donjoy-defiance-iii-custom-knee-brace_5.jpg
That's used for compression? :shakehead:

microwave_oven
07-14-2011, 09:37 AM
Yes 6 months is accurate. Each person's rehab is different, but 6 months is usually the norm for high performance athletes. Some can be as little as 4 months, some 2 years. There are a lot of variables.

The brace you show is not the compression sleeve he is referring to. While many athletes will wear a brace like you've shown, it doesn't actually protect the acl in any way. It is there more for comfort. It gives the athlete a sense of stability in the knee.

Since86
07-14-2011, 09:56 AM
Are you freaking kidding me?

http://www.betterbraces.com/acl-brace-for-knee-stability

Go to that link. Notice the compression braces are for "everyday and low impact sports" Then notice the picture of the brace that I provided is "superior braces for high impact sports and water sports." Get the hell out of here trying to say that compression is where it's at.

6 months of rehab is for the normal everyday person, who sits at a desk and gets their excerise by walking to the fridge. I really don't think I need to provide any sources, because every person here has saw/heard of players tearing their ACL and how long it's taken them to get back.

ECKrueger
07-14-2011, 10:01 AM
Guys take a second and realize you are arguing over braces. Not that big of a deal. No matter what the time table for recovery, he is on the wrong side of 30 coming of a knee surgery.

I think we would be better of with a younger guy that can fit it with our core.

Since86
07-14-2011, 10:01 AM
http://photos.indystar.com/photos/2008/6/23/108099/immersive.jpg

Obviously the Pacers trainers do suck, because they should have known that compression is the superior brace. Tsk Tsk.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd realize that this type of brace is better because it mimics your natural structure. The hinged joing replicates your MCL and LCL. Giving it support so it won't go inside or outside. The straps that attach it to your leg replicates your PCL and your MCL. Giving it support so your femur won't slip off your tibia/fibula frontwards or backwards.

Compression sleeves don't offer support, but compression, hence the name. Yes, it keeps swelling down, but that's just about it.

Justin Tyme
07-14-2011, 10:06 AM
Everything so far has been about his physical rehab, what about the mental side of the injury? Will West's mental side concerning trusting his knee be as b4 the injury or will he be favoring the knee not wanting to injure it again thus his game suffers.

Sorry, I'm in the group who says PASS. I'm for spending the money for a better return in 1 or numerous players.

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 10:07 AM
Are you sure you are talking about West? Below the rim? Huh?

Of course his game is "below the rim". He is not athletic enough to play ABOVE the rim like most PF's do - pass on him!

Gamble1
07-14-2011, 10:15 AM
Everything so far has been about his physical rehab, what about the mental side of the injury? Will West's mental side concerning trusting his knee be as b4 the injury or will he be favoring the knee not wanting to injure it again thus his game suffers.

Sorry, I'm in the group who says PASS. I'm for spending the money for a better return in 1 or numerous players.
Well I have seen nothing concerning West mentality being weak. He is agressively rehabbing which is a good sign and its been said many times by other posters that he doesn't rely on his surperior athleticism to produce on the floor.

Again I think the lockout is good for him and for us if we decide to sign him. Right now we don't need to worry about it until a decision can be made.

Since86
07-14-2011, 10:23 AM
Everything so far has been about his physical rehab, what about the mental side of the injury? Will West's mental side concerning trusting his knee be as b4 the injury or will he be favoring the knee not wanting to injure it again thus his game suffers.

Sorry, I'm in the group who says PASS. I'm for spending the money for a better return in 1 or numerous players.

Those are questions that can't be answered until you watch him play. There are mental barriers for sure, but no one knows the extent until he starts playing. Even him.

Pacer!
07-14-2011, 10:30 AM
Those are questions that can't be answered until you watch him play. There are mental barriers for sure, but no one knows the extent until he starts playing. Even him.

Good to see you didn't slack off, and attained your sport psych. degree as well as your rehab. and exc. sci. degrees ;)

microwave_oven
07-14-2011, 10:31 AM
Why are you flipping your lid, man?

A "superior brace" will not prevent an ACL tear. No brace will prevent an ACL tear. Because of the nature of an ACL tear, it is impossible to make a brace that could restrict those movements. The compression keeps the joint warm and compresses the swelling, making it less painful for the athlete.

6 months is usually a full recovery from surgery where basketball players can start light running and some contract drills. You usually don't get to 100% contact and competition until 8-10 months (as a precaution).

Since86
07-14-2011, 10:38 AM
When did I EVER say that it would prevent an injury? I didn't, and I never will. Let's try to stay within the lines what what I did say.

6months if full recovery, but yet they can only do light running? Obviously we have a different definition of the word "full."

Pacer!
07-14-2011, 10:45 AM
Just to add this for anyone interested, an Australian rules (AFL) footballer made his comeback to football just 11 weeks (3 months) after having 'LARS' surgery on his torn ACL, in 2008. This was following a prior initial tear of the same ACL, which had been repaired via traditional surgery, until this second rupture. To make a come-back after just 11 weeks was astonishing in a sport which is much more physically demanding than basketball... Kinda off-topic, but just thought I'd put it out there for those interested in the subject.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/bionic-man-malceski-praises-lars-20110713-1hddx.html

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 10:59 AM
I like it when people that want to make a case for West tell us that he'll be OK because he doesn't rely on athleticism to play, so why in the F do we want a non athletic PF to play with our non athletic center in Roy?

microwave_oven
07-14-2011, 11:03 AM
When did I EVER say that it would prevent an injury? I didn't, and I never will. Let's try to stay within the lines what what I did say.

6months if full recovery, but yet they can only do light running? Obviously we have a different definition of the word "full.":potkettle:
When did I say "full"?

microwave_oven
07-14-2011, 11:05 AM
For the record, I do not like David West's game and would not want him on the Pacers. However, the ACL injury wouldn't worry me too much if we were to sign him.

Since86
07-14-2011, 11:07 AM
Why are you flipping your lid, man?

A "superior brace" will not prevent an ACL tear. No brace will prevent an ACL tear. Because of the nature of an ACL tear, it is impossible to make a brace that could restrict those movements. The compression keeps the joint warm and compresses the swelling, making it less painful for the athlete.

6 months is usually a full recovery from surgery where basketball players can start light running and some contract drills. You usually don't get to 100% contact and competition until 8-10 months (as a precaution).


:potkettle:
When did I say "full"?

That was hard.

microwave_oven
07-14-2011, 11:11 AM
Touche.

ECKrueger
07-14-2011, 11:13 AM
I admit it Since, that was good.

Gamble1
07-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Touche.
He wasn't held much as a child.;)

sam kaiserblade
07-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Al Jefferson tore his ACL and came back fine.

Alan Henderson tore his in college and had a long good NBA career.

This isn't 1985 anymore. You CAN come back and play quite well after the injury.

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 12:39 PM
Al Jefferson tore his ACL and came back fine.

Alan Henderson tore his in college and had a long good NBA career.

This isn't 1985 anymore. You CAN come back and play quite well after the injury.

Were both of these players over 30 when they did this - No!
Henderson was in college and Jefferson had not hit his prime.
Cant compare them to West who is on the downside of his career if he never was hurt!

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 12:45 PM
David West = Shorter version of Troy Murphy who shoots more and rebounds less! Plays same "D"
Check out his numbers. Plus West played with a franchise pg while Murph played with crap!

daschysta
07-14-2011, 12:54 PM
David West = Shorter version of Troy Murphy who shoots more and rebounds less! Plays same "D"
Check out his numbers. Plus West played with a franchise pg while Murph played with crap!

West plays much better D than Murphy ever has, and he put up just as good numbers playing with Collison, do you also believe Darren is a "Franchise Point Guard"?

Also West is incredibly efficient, and actually has a decent post up game in addition to his elite mid ranged game, and doesn't rely on a gimmick to produce. Murphy was a product of JOB's system as much as any player i've ever seen. He'd literally have averaged about 4 points less per game without the trailer 3 play, and ironically probably average about 2 less rpg without it too.

Have you watched west play often or do you just look at stats?

The debate should be over the injury, age and money. A fully recovered West is a clear upgrade over anything we currently have, barring a breakout year next season.

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 01:03 PM
West plays much better D than Murphy ever has, and he put up just as good numbers playing with Collison, do you also believe Darren is a "Franchise Point Guard"?

Also West is incredibly efficient, and actually has a decent post up game in addition to his elite mid ranged game, and doesn't rely on a gimmick to produce. Murphy was a product of JOB's system as much as any player i've ever seen. He'd literally have averaged about 4 points less per game without the trailer 3 play, and ironically probably average about 2 less rpg without it too.

Have you watched west play often or do you just look at stats?

The debate should be over the injury, age and money. A fully recovered West is a clear upgrade over anything we currently have, barring a breakout year next season.

The obvious point to me is that West is on the downside of his career. I find it funny how Murphy got ridiculed while West gets lauded for their play. West is not athletic and plays below the rim. He is a poor rebounder and a below average defender (Murphy was bad too).
We need to bet bigger, stronger, and more athletic at the 4-5 spots. Not softer, and less athletic. West is the typical "gimmick" player. He stands 15-17' from the basket and shoots jumpshots all day. Does nothing else. He is the exact opposite of what this team needs.
When considering his injury, I have no doubt that Tyler will outproduce West next year! And for the next several years to come.

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 01:28 PM
A fully recovered West is a clear upgrade over anything we currently have, barring a breakout year next season.

The Bulls thought the same thing last year by signing Boozer and Philly did it few years ago with Brand, how is that working out?

graphic-er
07-14-2011, 01:50 PM
The Bulls thought the same thing last year by signing Boozer and Philly did it few years ago with Brand, how is that working out?

Well lets be fair the Bulls did make the East Finals, they weren't predicted to go that far at the beginning of the year. Boozer had SOME hand in all that. His head shake alone probably won them a game or 2.

A.B.Hollywood
07-14-2011, 01:54 PM
David West = Shorter version of Troy Murphy who shoots more and rebounds less! Plays same "D"


West would be a good backup for Tyler.

One thing I know for certain going forward: When you talk about your analysis of David West I am officially done listening to you.

Gamble1
07-14-2011, 01:57 PM
The Bulls thought the same thing last year by signing Boozer and Philly did it few years ago with Brand, how is that working out?
Man you like to exaggerate. No one has mentioned those types of contracts when talking about West.

A.B.Hollywood
07-14-2011, 02:09 PM
The Bulls thought the same thing last year by signing Boozer and Philly did it few years ago with Brand, how is that working out?

Boozer was signed for 5 years and 75 Million, with the following remaining:

2011: 13,500,000
2012: 15,000,000
2013: 15,300,000
2014: 16,800,000

Brand was signed for 5 years and 80 Million with the following remaining:

2011: 17,059,726
2012: 18,160,354

David West would be around 4 years 35 Million or so.

This comparison and argument really has to stop. Lets knock David West for the valid reasons there are to knock David West but these egregious exaggerations and all the crazy hyperbole linking him to players like this is beyond absurd.

Although still not as absurd as saying he'd be Tyler's backup or is a worse version of Troy Murphy but I digress...

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 02:25 PM
I wasn't talking about contracts I was pretty much talking about overall impact on the team, getting West would be as smart as the Bulls getting Boozer and Philly getting Brand.

A.B.Hollywood
07-14-2011, 02:31 PM
I wasn't talking about contracts I was pretty much talking about overall impact on the team, getting West would be as smart as the Bulls getting Boozer and Philly getting Brand.

Ugh, so now the size and the length of contracts don't have an overall impact the team? Those are the single biggest problems with those players and the only reason why they are mentionable.

Nice try at a deflection but this just makes the point even more flawed.

Next.

Gamble1
07-14-2011, 02:35 PM
6 months of rehab is for the normal everyday person, who sits at a desk and gets their excerise by walking to the fridge. I really don't think I need to provide any sources, because every person here has saw/heard of players tearing their ACL and how long it's taken them to get back.
Could you guys both be somewhat right. The knee won't be fully healed but it will be healed enough to play the sport according to this.

http://insidesportsmedicine.com/2011/04/acl-injury-acl-tear-acl-surgery/



How long is it usually before the injured athlete can return to his sport?
Dr. Souryal: Six months is the benchmark. Some physicians say nine; some say a year.

The guy is the lead Dr. for the Mavs.

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 02:40 PM
We all had to read the dumb comments made day after day about Troy Murphy that were totally unfair. The guy produced 14/12 year in and out.

Now the same people whoe hated Murphy love a guy who is as one-dimensional as Murph was. He is more athletic but he can do nothing on the court but stand flatfooted and shoot jumpshots. Nothing!
We need an athletic big who can rebound and block shots - not an un-athletic big who doesnt rebound very good and cant jump high enough to block a shot. We already have a cheaper version of David West on team (Tyler) who costs significantly less and will produce more in the upcoming years. Bringing David West in here for big money will rate as one of the dumbest FA signings in Pacer history. Lottery land the next several years!

Hicks
07-14-2011, 02:40 PM
I think it bears mentioning that you are all free to disagree with one another and should all be capable of doing so without posting comments that may inflame negative responses. I keep reading bits here and there that are needless other than to stroke one's ego, and I would hope we can all strive to eliminate that kind of thing in the name of keeping our conversations more respectful and to avoid any unnecessary conflict. No one is going to be awarded any points for being angry, sarcastic, witty, or anything else.

Since86
07-14-2011, 02:42 PM
I think the answer hinges on the definition of the word "return." Return to start training or return to the game are two completely different things.

If you were to return to actually playing basketball in 6months, you're going to get re-injured more times than not. No, not a fact. Just an educated opinion through course work and second-hand experience.

6 months would be best case scenario. More like perfect scenario.

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 02:47 PM
Ugh, so now the size and the length of contracts don't have an overall impact the team? Those are the single biggest problems with those players and the only reason why they are mentionable.

Nice try at a deflection but this just makes the point even more flawed.

Next.

Yeah other than they are all undersize power Forwards that love to play soft, shoot jumpers, play no D, are in the downhill of their careers and were injured when got their contracts, there is not other comparison about this guys but their salary or expected contracts(for West) good try though, I'll wait for you to tell me more about their contracts .........

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 02:53 PM
Yeah other than they are all undersize power Forwards that love to play soft, shoot jumpers, play no D, are in the downhill of their careers and were injured when got their contracts, there is not other comparison about this guys but their salary or expected contracts(for West) good try though, I'll wait for you to tell me more about their contracts .........

So, would you suggest that the Pacers spend the money on a younger, athletic PF/C who has upside or an older PF coming off knee surgery AND whose best days are behind him.

Me, I would prefer to sign players with upside rather than guys who we know are on the downside of their career - and more expensive!

sam kaiserblade
07-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Carl Landry also had a torn ACL at Purdue and was even shot in the leg.
Maybe the Pacers shouldnt consider him either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Landry

I dont understand how people can be pro-Landry or pro-Jefferson but anti-West. They have all had the same injury. Dont say it is age either. Hummel has torn his twice and he isnt old. With proper rehab, West will be back playing at a high level again.

Heck, Dujuan Blair doesnt even have an ACL and is playing pretty good for the Spurs.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2009/06/a-doctor-weighs-in-on-dejuan-blair-and-austin-dayes-medical-histories/

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 03:31 PM
Carl Landry also had a torn ACL at Purdue and was even shot in the leg.
Maybe the Pacers shouldnt consider him either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Landry

I dont understand how people can be pro-Landry or pro-Jefferson but anti-West. They have all had the same injury. Dont say it is age either. Hummel has torn his twice and he isnt old. With proper rehab, West will be back playing at a high level again.

Heck, Dujuan Blair doesnt even have an ACL and is playing pretty good for the Spurs.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2009/06/a-doctor-weighs-in-on-dejuan-blair-and-austin-dayes-medical-histories/

You keep mentioning all these young guys who had knee problems. West is not a young player. Even if healthy he is on the downside of his career. Comparing Landry, Henderson, Jefferson to him is not relevant. Big difference in trying to come back from the injury at 23 as opposed to 31.

D0NT SH0OT ME
07-14-2011, 03:35 PM
I'm not going to go through and refute your post point by point, because you make some huge errors in what your saying.

6 months? Are you kidding me? 6 months would be a mircale. Try more like 9months to a full year, and then even more time to be completely 100%.

6 months? Holy crap you don't know what you're talking about.

Please go back and read my post. Once your done with that, read it again. Six months is almost the exact amount of time it takes for the body to complete the healing process and for the graft to return to 100% strength. In some cases it may take an extra week or two for a particular person's body to heal to 100%, but it is an irrefutable fact that almost every recipient of an ACL reconstruction will have their ACL healed to 100% in six months time.


EDIT: Oh, and I thought I'd point out that you don't know what a meniscus does either. Your meniscus isn't for structural intergrity, it's for comfort. They sit inbetween your femur and tibia/fibula. It's a cushion so your bones don't rub on each other. It doesn't provide support.

I know exactly what a meniscus is, please re-read whatever it is you are drawing your information from. Firstly the meniscus sits between femur and tibia only, not your fibula. Secondly it is for structural integrity, it helps prevent the bones from slipping out of place, which is why they are torn quite frequently when the bones do slip out of place.



Oh really?

http://www.betterbraces.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/235x235/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/d/o/donjoy-defiance-iii-custom-knee-brace_5.jpg
That's used for compression? :shakehead:



The braces you commonly see NBA players wearing are not for knee support, they are simply a compression sleeve to keep swelling down, which is a common occurrence even years after knee surgery. Braces that actually support the knee are like the one that Robbie Hummel wears, or like the ones that NFL lineman commonly wear. When an ACL reconstruction surgery is performed correctly, a brace is not needed.

Commonly seen NBA "brace" (actually a compression sleeve):

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/043/184/104733437_crop_358x243.jpg?1286306903

Robbie Hummel brace:

http://photos.indystar.com/photos/2010/10/16/422116/immersive.jpg

NFL Lineman brace:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0826/dal_ap_knee_brace_300.jpg





Are you freaking kidding me?

http://www.betterbraces.com/acl-brace-for-knee-stability

Go to that link. Notice the compression braces are for "everyday and low impact sports" Then notice the picture of the brace that I provided is "superior braces for high impact sports and water sports." Get the hell out of here trying to say that compression is where it's at.

No one ever said compression is where it is at. His point about the functionality of those types of braces is also a legitimate one. Many professionals in the field have doubts about the effectiveness of braces such as the ones we have been referring to. Now before you misinterpret that statement please realize I included no personal input on that subject, just a fact.



6 months of rehab is for the normal everyday person, who sits at a desk and gets their excerise by walking to the fridge. I really don't think I need to provide any sources, because every person here has saw/heard of players tearing their ACL and how long it's taken them to get back.

So you are saying that my six months of rehab is "for the normal everyday person"? Well I play for Ripon College (yes a D3 school but one of the best out there) and I was doing everything but playing in full contact games five months after my surgery. At six months I was able to do everything I had been able to do prior to the injury. While it did take me until seven months to finally feel like I was back to 100%, you are wrong on all accounts to say that a six month recovery span is only for "the normal everyday person". If rehab is done correctly anyone can be back to normal in six months. If rehab is done improperly it can take much longer for a person to get back to normal. Regardless six months is the almost exact time it takes for the body to complete the healing process in the knee, and therefore it is used as a common benchmark for the rehab process.



I think the answer hinges on the definition of the word "return." Return to start training or return to the game are two completely different things.

If you were to return to actually playing basketball in 6months, you're going to get re-injured more times than not. No, not a fact. Just an educated opinion through course work and second-hand experience.

6 months would be best case scenario. More like perfect scenario.


It's laughable how incorrect your statements are here. If you seriously are an exercise science major or whatever you stated you are I would suggest re-reading a lot of the material you are drawing your information from, as you obviously misread or misinterpreted them.

Since86
07-14-2011, 03:35 PM
Carl Landry also had a torn ACL at Purdue and was even shot in the leg.
Maybe the Pacers shouldnt consider him either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Landry

I dont understand how people can be pro-Landry or pro-Jefferson but anti-West. They have all had the same injury. Dont say it is age either. Hummel has torn his twice and he isnt old. With proper rehab, West will be back playing at a high level again.

Each injury is different. I don't know why you think just because Carl Landry did it, means that West will. We don't know. It's called risk. You have to decide if the risk is worth the reward. There's no guarantee that he will return to form. But there's also no guarantee he won't.

He will probably decline anways, because he's on the downslide of his career. The extent is the question.



Heck, Dujuan Blair doesnt even have an ACL and is playing pretty good for the Spurs.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2009/06/a-doctor-weighs-in-on-dejuan-blair-and-austin-dayes-medical-histories/

And neither does Hines Ward. We talked about it to death. But being born without ACLs is much better than having them removed later on in life. Their bodies have adapted, and the surrounding liagaments have taken up the extra slack.

Again, there really isn't a point to showing what DeJuan Blair is doing, and what he's not doing. David West's condition isn't influenced by Blair's.

Since86
07-14-2011, 03:37 PM
Please show me where Kobe tore his ACL. I'll wait patiently.

EDIT:I guess I should say, show me where Kobe has had a serious knee injury.



MENISCUS INJURIES

The Meniscus (also known as cartilage) is a fibrocartilage in the knee that has a very unique shape, design and purpose. The purpose of the meniscus is act as a shock absorber and space filler between the bones of the knee. The menisci are of a “C” shape which corresponds and is contoured to the surface of the femur. They also have a wedge-like shape to them that helps with stability. This would be similar to the wedges used as door stops or a slice of an apple.

As stated, the meniscus is the primary shock absorber in the knee. It helps to dissipate the forces in the knee caused by all activities such as sitting, walking, running, jumping, cutting, etc. The goal is to disperse the forces over a greater area as opposed to isolating them.

http://www.drwaltlowe.com/meniscal-injuries/

Notice how it says nothing about helping the structure. Not one single mention.

CableKC
07-14-2011, 03:49 PM
I will default to Hicks post, regardless of how his injury will turnout......despite the likelihood that.hew would I improve the offense.....IMHO, I'd prefer a BigMan that can play minutes at the PF spot while backing up Hibbert at the Center spot. The reality is that Hansbrough can only play minutes at the PF spot...we need a Frontcourt player that can play next to both Hibbert and Hansbrough.

The Sleeze
07-14-2011, 03:52 PM
Problem solved, he'll just wear the Forrest Gump braces:

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/norm-49a81546edae3-Forrest+Gump+1994.jpeg

D0NT SH0OT ME
07-14-2011, 04:06 PM
Please show me where Kobe tore his ACL. I'll wait patiently.

When did I say he did? I said compression sleeves are commonly worn by NBA players, and I provided a picture of a NBA player wearing a compression sleeve.


EDIT:


http://www.drwaltlowe.com/meniscal-injuries/

Notice how it says nothing about helping the structure. Not one single mention.


Try actually reading what you posted.


They also have a wedge-like shape to them that helps with stability.


As stated, the meniscus is the primary shock absorber in the knee. It helps to dissipate the forces in the knee caused by all activities such as sitting, walking, running, jumping, cutting, etc. The goal is to disperse the forces over a greater area as opposed to isolating them.

Your link says the meniscus helps to stabilize the knee and acts as a shock absorber, both of these points coincide with the fact that the meniscus helps keep the structural integrity of the knee.

The Jackson shimmy
07-14-2011, 04:12 PM
Are you sure you are talking about West? Below the rim? Huh?


I didn't mean literally 'below the rim'. I meant that he's not a big who
is a high flyer that relies on explosive athleticism ala say an Amare or
the like. He's a PNR, face-up shooter who gets whatever he does
done inside with sound positioning, footwork, etc.

Losing a tiny bit of whatever athleticism he had isn't gonna change his
game or effectiveness much at all.

Again, not advocating we sign him. He's a poor fit re size/defensive
needs at 4/5 was will be too damn expensive.

Since86
07-14-2011, 04:18 PM
A meniscus is basically flat, with slightly raised outer rim. It would be like taking a golf ball and setting on top of a water bottle. (Which is the actual example used in my classes) If you turn that water bottle over, what happens? If you were to shake that water bottle, what happens? Now place rubber bands around the ball, and around the bottom of the bottle. Now turn it over and shake it. Notice the difference?

The rubber bands are like your liagaments. They actually hold the ball(joint) in place. The raised rim doesn't offer much, if at all, help. It's mashed down due to the force of your body resting on it. It's bound to be lower where the force is, and higher where there is less.

I need to relook at what you said about compression braces.

EDIT: Okay, you said that compression sleeves are just normally worn, regardless if they've had an injury or not.

Which really had nothing to do with what I said. I asked why players wear braces AFTER they have an injury. Braces like the one I linked a picture too.

Kobe wearing a compression sleeve has nothing to do with what I said. I was specifically talking about post injury braces.

D0NT SH0OT ME
07-14-2011, 04:28 PM
A meniscus is basically flat, with slightly raised outer rim. It would be like taking a golf ball and setting on top of a water bottle. (Which is the actual example used in my classes) If you turn that water bottle over, what happens? If you were to shake that water bottle, what happens? Now place rubber bands around the ball, and around the bottom of the bottle. Now turn it over and shake it. Notice the difference?

The rubber bands are like your liagaments. They actually hold the ball(joint) in place. The raised rim doesn't offer much, if at all, help. It's mashed down due to the force of your body resting on it. It's bound to be lower where the force is, and higher where there is less.

I need to relook at what you said about compression braces.


Off topic, but the example used in your class is a terrible representation of how a meniscus works.

The raised lip of the meniscus, like your link says, fits the contours of the femur and therefore helps to prevent the bone from moving out of place. Did I ever say the meniscus was the main reason your knee stays structurally sound? No. The only reason I brought up the meniscus was to point out the seriousness of injuring it as it can rarely be healed and that the result of injuring it is permanently losing the support it offers to the knee (how much support it offers is debatable, the fact that it does support the knee is not).



EDIT: Okay, you said that compression sleeves are just normally worn, regardless if they've had an injury or not.

Which really had nothing to do with what I said. I asked why players wear braces AFTER they have an injury. Braces like the one I linked a picture too.

Kobe wearing a compression sleeve has nothing to do with what I said. I was specifically talking about post injury braces.


I brought the point up because I assumed you were making the mistake of interpreting a compression sleeve as a brace (at the time you had not linked a picture to your post). You obviously were not so the subject can be dropped.

Edit: My point about compression sleeves was in response to your statement that athletes that undergo reconstructive surgery on their knees usually wear braces. That is false. Braces are certainly not needed after knee surgery and any potential benefits of wearing one are most definitely disputed, and therefore a large number of athletes do not wear knee braces. What you do commonly see athletes wearing are compression sleeves, which is what I myself wear.

Since86
07-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Your meniscus doesn't have any blood flow to them, so it's phsyically impossible for them to heal. You can have surgery to remove some of it, and you can have them replaced, but they don't heal.

EDIT: Either way, I'm done. Just because this was a "clean" tear, doesn't mean that he's less likely to re-injure himself. Only time will tell if he will. Nothing can predict it.

D0NT SH0OT ME
07-14-2011, 04:45 PM
Your meniscus doesn't have any blood flow to them, so it's phsyically impossible for them to heal. You can have surgery to remove some of it, and you can have them replaced, but they don't heal.

If the tear is near the outside of the meniscus, where blood vessels from other parts of your body are present, it does have a chance to heal. This however is a very rare occurrence, which is why I stated healing a meniscus is virtually impossible. Do not debate this with me, because I know from experience that a meniscus can heal, seeing that I slightly tore mine along with my ACL and that my meniscus has healed on its own.

Edit: Being that he tore only his ACL, he is less likely to re-injure it than if he had torn his meniscus or some other ligament along with it. If surgery and rehab are performed correctly, he will end up having a stronger ACL and therefore will be less likely to injure that specific knee again. Note that I say "if" surgery and rehab are performed correctly. That is a big "if". It is very common for the surgery to be botched or for rehab to go in the wrong direction, so yes, only time will tell if surgery and rehab were performed correctly.

beast23
07-14-2011, 05:15 PM
One thing I know for certain going forward: When you talk about your analysis of David West I am officially done listening to you.I applaud your patience.

With some folks on our forum, every player decision comes down to age. I just don't get it. I'm pretty sure that osteoporosis and arthritis conditions would be very rare in NBA basketball players, yet the age thing keeps coming up.

I guess I am astounded.

When did 30 become "old"? Worse yet, when did 27-28 become middle-aged?

Crap, if I actually valued the opinion of a few folks on here, at age 59 I should just call it quits and ask for my little black pill.

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 05:28 PM
I applaud your patience.

With some folks on our forum, every player decision comes down to age. I just don't get it. I'm pretty sure that osteoporosis and arthritis conditions would be very rare in NBA basketball players, yet the age thing keeps coming up.

I guess I am astounded.

When did 30 become "old"? Worse yet, when did 27-28 become middle-aged?

Crap, if I actually valued the opinion of a few folks on here, at age 59 I should just call it quits and ask for my little black pill.

How old you think the majority of players are when they retire? 40? 50? We are talking about basketball not baseball or golf.

troyc11a
07-14-2011, 05:37 PM
I applaud your patience.

With some folks on our forum, every player decision comes down to age. I just don't get it. I'm pretty sure that osteoporosis and arthritis conditions would be very rare in NBA basketball players, yet the age thing keeps coming up.

I guess I am astounded.

When did 30 become "old"? Worse yet, when did 27-28 become middle-aged?

Crap, if I actually valued the opinion of a few folks on here, at age 59 I should just call it quits and ask for my little black pill.

C'mon man, use some common sense here. 30 is not that old but it will require a 4 year contract that will only go UP in value. If they would sign West on a 1 year deal I would be all for it. But how good do you think a 33-34 y/o who cant do anything now but shoot a 15' jumper be? That money will be tied up on him and we will have to say goodbye to a couple pieces of our core because of his contract. Think ahead and the age issue is obvious.

sam kaiserblade
07-14-2011, 08:39 PM
Each injury is different. I don't know why you think just because Carl Landry did it, means that West will. We don't know. It's called risk. You have to decide if the risk is worth the reward. There's no guarantee that he will return to form. But there's also no guarantee he won't.

He will probably decline anways, because he's on the downslide of his career. The extent is the question.




And neither does Hines Ward. We talked about it to death. But being born without ACLs is much better than having them removed later on in life. Their bodies have adapted, and the surrounding liagaments have taken up the extra slack.

Again, there really isn't a point to showing what DeJuan Blair is doing, and what he's not doing. David West's condition isn't influenced by Blair's.

Blair wasnt born without ACLs. He tore both in high school according to articles.

I think Nene is a bigger risk than West. He is Brazilian and they are notorious for getting out of shape. Just look at Ronaldihno and Ronaldo. Nene tore his ACL not that many years ago. I would bet money that Nene re-tears his ACL or has another career threating injury before West does. West will have a longer career I bet. Please dont waste money on Nene!!!

vnzla81
07-14-2011, 09:12 PM
Blair wasnt born without ACLs. He tore both in high school according to articles.

I think Nene is a bigger risk than West. He is Brazilian and they are notorious for getting out of shape. Just look at Ronaldihno and Ronaldo. Nene tore his ACL not that many years ago. I would bet money that Nene re-tears his ACL or has another career threating injury before West does. West will have a longer career I bet. Please dont waste money on Nene!!!

:wtf:

Pacer!
07-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Both ronaldo and ronaldinho did not become overweight due to gentic/other-mysterious-brazilian reasons... Both earned all of the fame and money in the world, and as a result slacked off, partied hard, spent their money, and basically made football less of a priority.

Not that we should even be arguing this, but Nene won't become unfit/overweight just because two fellow brazilians with completely different body types to himself, coincidentally became overweight in a different sport...

Kemo
07-14-2011, 10:39 PM
I'd personally much rather let the next season play out and see what improvement we have in Tyler and McRoberts .. Hans in his rookie year was injured after only being suited up for 29 games.. which lasted all the way till game #12 into the 2010/2011 season.. And this last season he played in every game since he came back, totalling 70 games , starting 29 of those..

So I am really expecting Hans to show alot of improvement and solidify the position .. As far as McRoberts, last season was the first time he has gotten meaningful minutes, even starting 51 games out of the 72 he played in .. which btw is the most he has ever played in his career thus far .. I expect to see good things from him as well...

I don't want to give up on our 2 guys yet.. IMHO it would be very foolish and shortsighted .. I think we owe it to ourselves, the Pacers organization, and Tyler/Josh ... to give them the chance to grow into the potential they obviously have ..


People around here are way too damn IMPATIENT ... Instead they would rather hijack threads and/or flood the forum with umpteen similar threads on replacing our guys by signing/trading for West, Landry, Evans,Chandler or yet another player whom is not that significant of an upgrade for the pricetag said player would command..









.

Kemo
07-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Well lets be fair .............................................His head shake alone probably won them a game or 2.

QFT

LOL thats funny

Kemo
07-14-2011, 11:56 PM
Problem solved, he'll just wear the Forrest Gump braces:

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/norm-49a81546edae3-Forrest+Gump+1994.jpeg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iicJrGuTm1w/TT3yPIwRraI/AAAAAAAAAHk/LL6nzLTQ3yA/s1600/magic+shoes.jpg

beast23
07-15-2011, 12:33 AM
Blair wasnt born without ACLs. He tore both in high school according to articles.

I think Nene is a bigger risk than West. He is Brazilian and they are notorious for getting out of shape. Just look at Ronaldihno and Ronaldo. Nene tore his ACL not that many years ago. I would bet money that Nene re-tears his ACL or has another career threating injury before West does. West will have a longer career I bet. Please dont waste money on Nene!!!



Vlnzla:
:wtf:

Sorry.... but I read your response to Sam's post and all I could do was laugh. But for a different reason than you might have expected. You see, I think it is just as ludicrous to stereotype a player due to his age as it is due to his nationality, race or anything else.

Your belief is that, just because a player is getting older, that his performance drops off. Of course, at some point in time, that absolutely is true. But, that point in time where performance drops off varies from player to player.

Some players, due to injuries or even their own lack of conditioning, become "old" well before their times. However others continue to perform at or near their peaks until reaching well into their 30s... whether they have suffered injuries or not. Still others, despite losing a step or two as they get older, find ways to grow their games in such a way that they are just about as productive well into their 30s as they ever were.

Other players, for example Reggie, declare themselves to be 2nd or even 3rd options to younger players on their teams, but are still more than capable of stepping up whenever their teams seem to need them.

The biggest concern of the Pacers is simply acquiring players to make the team better. PF is a position where much improvement can be made. West does cause some concern due to his injury, not his age. But, all reports seem to indicate that he is progressing extremely well. Due to the recent injury, he can probably be signed at a discount, and not a premium as some seem to believe. Would he provide the Pacers with a significantly greater and more consistent threat in their lineup than Tyler? I think anyone who would answer that question "No" is in denial.

I believe West is presently and will be a very coveted player at least for the next few years. Along with Hill, West's presence is enough to put the Pacers comfortably into the playoffs for the next few years. I believe it is possible that with Hill and West, if a few of our younger guys pan out, we will be able to challenge for homecourt advantage or better in a couple of years.

There are a few ways to make marked improvement in the playoffs. You can get lucky through the draft and get a difference maker, which we are not likely to do due to our draft position. You can trade for better players than you have. You can sign FAs that are better players than you have. And, you can hope that your younger players reach or exceed their perceived potentials.

My thought is not to wait to see what happens with all of our young players. Some will pan out and some will not. And, if we do not have the right combination of players to pan out, we will be 2-3 years down the road and starting the entire process of trying to build a contender all over again.

So, I think it is imperative that we go out and get a decent player now that will fit in with our present players and that can provide a veteran presence in our lineup to make us better. Get better as quickly as you can, and adapt your roster with the changes that are necessary to remain in the upper echelon as long as you can.

With Reggie and company, we were in the upper echelon for several years. We then dropped off for a couple of years, and we scrapped our way back into the upper echelon with Artest and O'Neal. Unfortunately, the wheels fell off the bus when some of our players proved to be nutcases.

We have now been out of the upper echelon for a few years and it's time to scrap our way back in. Getting Hill and West to go along with Granger will enable that in a couple of years, provided that a couple of our youngsters continue growing.

A.B.Hollywood
07-15-2011, 12:44 AM
Sorry.... but I read your response to Sam's post and all I could do was laugh. But for a different reason than you might have expected. You see, I think it is just as ludicrous to stereotype a player due to his age as it is due to his nationality, race or anything else.

Your belief is that, just because a player is getting older, that his performance drops off. Of course, at some point in time, that absolutely is true. But, that point in time where performance drops off varies from player to player.

Some players, due to injuries or even their own lack of conditioning, become "old" well before their times. However others continue to perform at or near their peaks until reaching well into their 30s... whether they have suffered injuries or not. Still others, despite losing a step or two as they get older, find ways to grow their games in such a way that they are just about as productive well into their 30s as they ever were.

Other players, for example Reggie, declare themselves to be 2nd or even 3rd options to younger players on their teams, but are still more than capable of stepping up whenever their teams seem to need them.

The biggest concern of the Pacers is simply acquiring players to make the team better. PF is a position where much improvement can be made. West does cause some concern due to his injury, not his age. But, all reports seem to indicate that he is progressing extremely well. Due to the recent injury, he can probably be signed at a discount, and not a premium as some seem to believe. Would he provide the Pacers with a significantly greater and more consistent threat in their lineup than Tyler? I think anyone who would answer that question "No" is in denial.

I believe West is presently and will be a very coveted player at least for the next few years. Along with Hill, West's presence is enough to put the Pacers comfortably into the playoffs for the next few years. I believe it is possible that with Hill and West, if a few of our younger guys pan out, we will be able to challenge for homecourt advantage or better in a couple of years.

There are a few ways to make marked improvement in the playoffs. You can get lucky through the draft and get a difference maker, which we are not likely to do due to our draft position. You can trade for better players than you have. You can sign FAs that are better players than you have. And, you can hope that your younger players reach or exceed their perceived potentials.

My thought is not to wait to see what happens with all of our young players. Some will pan out and some will not. And, if we do not have the right combination of players to pan out, we will be 2-3 years down the road and starting the entire process of trying to build a contender all over again.

So, I think it is imperative that we go out and get a decent player now that will fit in with our present players and that can provide a veteran presence in our lineup to make us better. Get better as quickly as you can, and adapt your roster with the changes that are necessary to remain in the upper echelon as long as you can.

With Reggie and company, we were in the upper echelon for several years. We then dropped off for a couple of years, and we scrapped our way back into the upper echelon with Artest and O'Neal. Unfortunately, the wheels fell off the bus when some of our players proved to be nutcases.

We have now been out of the upper echelon for a few years and it's time to scrap our way back in. Getting Hill and West to go along with Granger will enable that in a couple of years, provided that a couple of our youngsters continue growing.

Although I don't necessarily agree with some of the peak optimistic levels reached here, as a whole this is a fantastic and well thought out post.

Well done.

vnzla81
07-15-2011, 06:45 AM
Sorry.... but I read your response to Sam's post and all I could do was laugh. But for a different reason than you might have expected. You see, I think it is just as ludicrous to stereotype a player due to his age as it is due to his nationality, race or anything else.

Your belief is that, just because a player is getting older, that his performance drops off. Of course, at some point in time, that absolutely is true. But, that point in time where performance drops off varies from player to player.

Some players, due to injuries or even their own lack of conditioning, become "old" well before their times. However others continue to perform at or near their peaks until reaching well into their 30s... whether they have suffered injuries or not. Still others, despite losing a step or two as they get older, find ways to grow their games in such a way that they are just about as productive well into their 30s as they ever were.

Other players, for example Reggie, declare themselves to be 2nd or even 3rd options to younger players on their teams, but are still more than capable of stepping up whenever their teams seem to need them.

The biggest concern of the Pacers is simply acquiring players to make the team better. PF is a position where much improvement can be made. West does cause some concern due to his injury, not his age. But, all reports seem to indicate that he is progressing extremely well. Due to the recent injury, he can probably be signed at a discount, and not a premium as some seem to believe. Would he provide the Pacers with a significantly greater and more consistent threat in their lineup than Tyler? I think anyone who would answer that question "No" is in denial.

I believe West is presently and will be a very coveted player at least for the next few years. Along with Hill, West's presence is enough to put the Pacers comfortably into the playoffs for the next few years. I believe it is possible that with Hill and West, if a few of our younger guys pan out, we will be able to challenge for homecourt advantage or better in a couple of years.

There are a few ways to make marked improvement in the playoffs. You can get lucky through the draft and get a difference maker, which we are not likely to do due to our draft position. You can trade for better players than you have. You can sign FAs that are better players than you have. And, you can hope that your younger players reach or exceed their perceived potentials.

My thought is not to wait to see what happens with all of our young players. Some will pan out and some will not. And, if we do not have the right combination of players to pan out, we will be 2-3 years down the road and starting the entire process of trying to build a contender all over again.

So, I think it is imperative that we go out and get a decent player now that will fit in with our present players and that can provide a veteran presence in our lineup to make us better. Get better as quickly as you can, and adapt your roster with the changes that are necessary to remain in the upper echelon as long as you can.

With Reggie and company, we were in the upper echelon for several years. We then dropped off for a couple of years, and we scrapped our way back into the upper echelon with Artest and O'Neal. Unfortunately, the wheels fell off the bus when some of our players proved to be nutcases.

We have now been out of the upper echelon for a few years and it's time to scrap our way back in. Getting Hill and West to go along with Granger will enable that in a couple of years, provided that a couple of our youngsters continue growing.

Getting West is going to put the Pacers on the upper echelon? come on now :rolleyes: yeah go ahead and sign players that according to you are not old, you like it or not players get old and start to decline when they get older than 30 years olds, I can see that you are happy just to make it to the playoffs, that is maybe our difference here, I want them to compete for a championship not a 1st round exit.

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 10:09 AM
I will default to Hicks post, regardless of how his injury will turnout......despite the likelihood that.hew would I improve the offense.....IMHO, I'd prefer a BigMan that can play minutes at the PF spot while backing up Hibbert at the Center spot. The reality is that Hansbrough can only play minutes at the PF spot...we need a Frontcourt player that can play next to both Hibbert and Hansbrough.
I wouldn't mind a list of pf/c that could be available. My man problem with this type of thinking is that there is an X amount of players that can provide what your looking for and of those players a small fraction do we remotely have a shot at. And when I say remotely I mean we grossly have to overpay to occur them through trades and/or cash.

I have seen no reports that Nene would even consider Indy. I have seen reports however linking him to Houston and west coast teams but nothing in the midwest. I think we all know that Cavs aren't letting Vajerao go after the Hickenson trade. DeAnre Jordan is a possibility but most of the Clippers fans would only let him walk if we offered 10 mill per year which is again grossly overpaying for a guy who may or may not workout in the long run.

I don't think West is the best option but he is more likely than any above mentioned players.


Each injury is different. I don't know why you think just because Carl Landry did it, means that West will. We don't know. It's called risk. You have to decide if the risk is worth the reward. There's no guarantee that he will return to form. But there's also no guarantee he won't.
The Dr. from the Mavs thinks that the narrow notch found in some males leads to a higher risk of ACL tears. I don't know if West has it but if he does then I wouldn't defiantly not sign him to a contract.

Tom White
07-15-2011, 10:46 AM
Ya Peck but you've been barking up that tree for awhile now and management stilll disagrees with you. Basically Foster fullfills that role.

Problem is, Foster is going to be able to do less and less of those things.


I don't think West is the player that will put us in contention but he could be apart of the equation. I think West is a good pick setter the whole rugged part could easily be adressed with another signing.



My problem with that idea is that you then would have to have two players being paid to do the job we all would like to see one player be able to do.

Since86
07-15-2011, 10:53 AM
The Dr. from the Mavs thinks that the boney prominence found in some males leads to a higher risk of ACL tears. I don't know if West has it but if he does then I wouldn't defiantly not sign him to a contract.

Just to clarify, you're comparing males to males only right?

There is a lot of thought that females tear their ACL more often, due to the more extreme angle of the femur.

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 10:56 AM
Just to clarify, you're comparing males to males only right?

There is a lot of thought that females tear their ACL more often, due to the more extreme angle of the femur.
Yep. The study only compared males to males.

Edit: My bad its not the prominence but the notch width and other factors. Reported a 7.8 fold higher incident.

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 11:07 AM
Problem is, Foster is going to be able to do less and less of those things.


My problem with that idea is that you then would have to have two players being paid to do the job we all would like to see one player be able to do.
So maybe we don't resign Foster but another guy slightly younger but with the same attitude.

I think everyone on here would like a player like what Peck described but you also need a some offense from the starting PF spot. IF you don't then teams just pack the paint and make our team overall easier to defend.

If you sign a guy who has limited offensive skills but is what Peck describes then Hibbert has to be your offensive big. The problem is that he hasn't shown that he can fullfill that role yet.

Ideally you want a big that is both a rugged defender and a competent offensively but that list of players is incredibly small. You still go after them but I think we have a 5% shot at getting that type of player.

beast23
07-15-2011, 12:14 PM
Getting West is going to put the Pacers on the upper echelon? come on now :rolleyes: yeah go ahead and sign players that according to you are not old, you like it or not players get old and start to decline when they get older than 30 years olds, I can see that you are happy just to make it to the playoffs, that is maybe our difference here, I want them to compete for a championship not a 1st round exit.
I think that the problem that I have with your posts is that sometimes you key in on the portion of a post that most offends you, as all of us do from time to time, and totally ignore any caveats that are provided with said post.

If you re-read the last line of my post you will see that I did NOT state that West himself is going to establish the Pacers as an upper-echelon team.

What I did do is state that Hill and West, along with Granger, will prove to be vital pieces in helping to establish the Pacers as an upper-echelon team, PROVIDED THAT SOME OF OUR YOUNGSTERS CONTINUE GROWING.

PaulGeorge
07-15-2011, 12:30 PM
I was wondering, i could be thinking the nfl but, wont the nba also do away with guaranteed contracts? If so wouldn't that mean we could take the risk on West?

vnzla81
07-15-2011, 12:37 PM
If you re-read the last line of my post you will see that I did NOT state that West himself is going to establish the Pacers as an upper-echelon team.

What I did do is state that Hill and West, along with Granger, will prove to be vital pieces in helping to establish the Pacers as an upper-echelon team, PROVIDED THAT SOME OF OUR YOUNGSTERS CONTINUE GROWING.

So according to you Hill, West,Granger and the rest of the guys together could put this team in the upper-echelon, can you please explaing to me what is the "upper-echelon" to you?

Like I said before in another thread, if a team with an all star possible hall of famer point guard in Chris Paul, a younger Tyson Chandler and a younger and healthy Dwest couldn't get it done or stay in the "upper-echelon" you keep talking about, what makes you think that we can get it now by signing the post injury and three years older West? I'm sorry but I'm not buying it.

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 02:33 PM
Each injury is different. I don't know why you think just because Carl Landry did it, means that West will. We don't know. It's called risk. You have to decide if the risk is worth the reward. There's no guarantee that he will return to form. But there's also no guarantee he won't.

I don't know if you are interested in this but I went through a lot of scientific articles concerning acl tears and the factors involved. I won't go through all the details but in the case of West I think he has a pretty good shot to come back healthy.

Unfortunately there aren't a ton of articles on athletes and the reoccurence of a ACL tear in the same knee but one study found that athletes who returned to their sport 7 months after the injury were 5.2% more likely to reinjury the knee.

The higher the competition the higher the level of reinjury. Another study found that after 12 months the reinjury risk is the same as the noninjuried knee. There was no gender difference in reinjury though which I thought was interesting.

Looking at how West injuried his knee the first time I would hope that we would not use him much early on next year. It seems that muscle fatigue is very big factor in ACL tears. The fact that he tore his acl while landing from a jump in the 4th quarter seems telling to me.

Overall its impossible to know if there is a high risk of him never returning to his old self but looking at all the papers even ones that involved nba players and PER I think he has a good shot at returning pretty healthy. I think this is especially true given the nature of his game.

troyc11a
07-15-2011, 03:21 PM
So according to you Hill, West,Granger and the rest of the guys together could put this team in the upper-echelon, can you please explaing to me what is the "upper-echelon" to you?

Like I said before in another thread, if a team with an all star possible hall of famer point guard in Chris Paul, a younger Tyson Chandler and a younger and healthy Dwest couldn't get it done or stay in the "upper-echelon" you keep talking about, what makes you think that we can get it now by signing the post injury and three years older West? I'm sorry but I'm not buying it.

West (b4 knee surgery) > Older West after Knee surgery
Chris Paul > Darren Collison
Tyson Chandler > Roy Hibbert

You tell me how the heck West is what this team needed when he couldnt get it done with a better team before? He will not be the player he once was and he will not have the talent around him. Plus his contract means bye bye to Roy or another piece. Bird cannot be this stupid as to sign him to a big deal

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 03:43 PM
West (b4 knee surgery) > Older West after Knee surgery
Chris Paul > Darren Collison
Tyson Chandler > Roy Hibbert

You tell me how the heck West is what this team needed when he couldnt get it done with a better team before? He will not be the player he once was and he will not have the talent around him. Plus his contract means bye bye to Roy or another piece. Bird cannot be this stupid as to sign him to a big deal
YOu do realize that we have 25 mill in commited salary in 2012-13? Even if we signed West at 10 mill per we could still resign Roy to a decent contract.

troyc11a
07-15-2011, 03:56 PM
YOu do realize that we have 25 mill in commited salary in 2012-13? Even if we signed West at 10 mill per we could still resign Roy to a decent contract.

There is Roy, PG, Darren, Tyler, at the least.
Yoiu do realize that David West is 31 and coming off an ACL surgery? Do you really think he will be worth the money 3-4 years from now?

NapTonius Monk
07-15-2011, 04:07 PM
I was wondering, i could be thinking the nfl but, wont the nba also do away with guaranteed contracts? If so wouldn't that mean we could take the risk on West?
Doubt the NBPA would go for that.

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 04:22 PM
Like I said before in another thread, if a team with an all star possible hall of famer point guard in Chris Paul, a younger Tyson Chandler and a younger and healthy Dwest couldn't get it done or stay in the "upper-echelon" you keep talking about, what makes you think that we can get it now by signing the post injury and three years older West? I'm sorry but I'm not buying it.
They played like one full season together and when they did they gave the franchise there best overall record ever (56-26) and got to the second round of the playoffs and pushed a good spurs team to 7 games.

If the young players develop and we have Dwest along with Granger then yes we can be a upper echelon team in the East.

Lets not act like Dwest, CP3 and Chandler played together for 5 years. They played for 3 years and were only healthy for 1.

troyc11a
07-15-2011, 04:29 PM
If the NBA does away with guaranteed contracts (which they should), I would be ok with signing West. If he has to have 4 years guaranteed, only a fool would sign him to $40+ million. But, someone will be dumb enough to do it, someone always is!

vnzla81
07-15-2011, 04:37 PM
They played like one full season together and when they did they gave the franchise there best overall record ever (56-26) and got to the second round of the playoffs and pushed a good spurs team to 7 games.

If the young players develop and we have Dwest along with Granger then yes we can be a upper echelon team in the East.

Lets not act like Dwest, CP3 and Chandler played together for 5 years. They played for 3 years and were only healthy for 1.

:laugh: you are still making my point.

Gamble1
07-15-2011, 04:47 PM
:laugh: you are still making my point.
Hardly when you factor in East vs West and the competition back then.

Your argument is taking on water because its full of holes. You think one season is enough for a team to build enough chemistry to win big. This isn't the Heat were talking about.

The Hornets were the 3rd best team in the West with your lineup or in other words upper echelon.