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90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 02:28 PM
http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/7/11/2270902/lance-stephenson-showing-signs-of-progress-this-summer


With the Kevin Pritchard news breaking last Friday, I was looking forward to hearing Mike Wells discuss the news with Michael Grady on the Grady and Big Joe Show.

Since the news was so fresh, Wells didn't have much more insight on the hire than he had already shared but he did have some interesting things to say as the discussion continued to other offseason topics. In fact, I was taken aback to hear Wells speak so positively about Lance Stephenson and the changes he's noticed in the young Pacers guard this summer.

I'm gonna say this, and Grady you know, you've seen people get mad at me for criticizing Lance Stephenson. I have heard nothing but good things about Lance so far. I talked to him at the Pro Am. We went the whole season where he would not acknowledge and speak to me first, not that he has to do that. He came up to me, shook my hand asked if I had any questions and before the lockout talking to people with the Pacers, they said he was committed to coming in throughout the whole thing and working out and stuff and now you gotta hope that now that there's nobody watching over Lance that he can continue this trend because he has the potential to be good.
Even his father spoke to me during the draft party. I don't think he even said two words the whole season. I think the maturity is starting to slowly trickle down to Lance. Now, just hope that it carries over to after this lockout happens because if it doesn't happen it's a bad indication on Larry because he has stuck up for Lance and he has been adamant that he wants Lance on his team, so he has to hope that Lance is mature enough to handle this throughout the whole process and is responsible in working out.
As he mentioned, Wells is nowhere near a Stephenson apologist which is why this was news to me. MG went on to verify Stephenson's reluctance to say anything during the season, especially without Clark Kellogg monitoring his actions.

Of course, being a professional working on your game and learning to handle your business with the media remains a Chris Rock, what do you want, a cookie?! situation. It has to be an everyday way of life thing for Stephenson, putting in the work over the long haul so that eventually his showing the basic signs of progress isn't considered news.

One bad decision in less than a minute's time can wipe away months of hard work and professional behavior. So on some level, I'm kind of glad Stephenson is forced away from the Fieldhouse and the team's advisors during the lockout. Seriously, it's not that tough to remain self-motivated and take care of your business so we'll see what happens when Stephenson returns from the lockout with any additional progress solely on his shoulders.

Does that constitue praise? Find it interesting that I used the word praise and a poster said something like "How is Lance being prasied" which was "Thanked" on that post by the above article's writer.

I think this is a nice piece which should give people who wish for Lance to succed, sincere hope

BlueNGold
07-12-2011, 02:48 PM
He will not have a bigger fan if he backs it up...but this is just more talk. Let's see what he does this coming season (if they even play one).

Peck
07-12-2011, 03:08 PM
Don't take this wrong but did we really need another seperate thread for this? Couldn't this have gone in the other thread as a counter point to say that this is praise for Lance?

Just my :twocents:

Major Cold
07-12-2011, 03:36 PM
Don't take this wrong but did we really need another seperate thread for this? Couldn't this have gone in the other thread as a counter point to say that this is praise for Lance?

Just my :twocents:


So over under 15 more threads about Lance between now and the end of the lockout

90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 03:50 PM
Don't take this wrong but did we really need another seperate thread for this? Couldn't this have gone in the other thread as a counter point to say that this is praise for Lance?

Just my :twocents:

I thought about that but wanted to point it out specifically after a few had an issue of the title being misleading , I thought it to be ironic that I found an article that was even more explanatory than the previous one I posted

So yes , you are correct my ego allowed me to make a second post, but I have no problem closing and combining if thats the thought

And Peck, you never offend bro so no need to quanitfy your statement

but thanks :)

Peck
07-12-2011, 04:08 PM
I thought about that but wanted to point it out specifically after a few had an issue of the title being misleading , I thought it to be ironic that I found an article that was even more explanatory than the previous one I posted

So yes , you are correct my ego allowed me to make a second post, but I have no problem closing and combining if thats the thought

And Peck, you never offend bro so no need to quanitfy your statement

but thanks :)

Let's just let this thread ride out, no need to combine.

I can totally understand wanting to get a point across so I'm cool with that. However to be honest I understand where Brushwithdeath was coming from with his question. I think it was a postive statement about Lance but I'm not sure I would say praise, although it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Either way all it good.

:dance:

90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 04:28 PM
LOL at the Second "Thanks" utilized

Brad8888
07-12-2011, 04:38 PM
So over under 15 more threads about Lance between now and the end of the lockout

WAY over...

HickeyS2000
07-12-2011, 04:46 PM
I have no problems with multiple threads as Lance has the most unknowns/what-ifs out of anyone on our team and therefore is a popular topic of discussion. I believe everything Bird says and pray that he turns out to be our best player. We all think P.George is gonna be great and I'm excited to think we have two players that have a chance to be that good. The fact that both have ridiculous upside excites me more than anything Pacers-related since the brawl. Worthy topic of discussion IMO.

Edit: I did not mean the brawl excited me. Having possibly the best team in the league that year excited me.

joew8302
07-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Based on everything I am hearing from Bird and other posters I expect Lance to be nothing less than the second coming of Kobe Bryant.

In all seriousness, does anyone else think the "Lance hype" is bizarre?

ECKrueger
07-12-2011, 05:21 PM
I am rooting for the kid. Even if he never plays well for us, I just hope he gets his act together. It would be nice if he became a great player too.

90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 05:55 PM
combination of things : off season is already slow, yet add a lockout and you struggle for info to discuss. Also, as Pacer fans we have had very few superstars and even though it is a lot of hype surrounding Lance , he is one of the few players on the team with the potential to be that. Add in quotes by Bird of "most talented on the team" and various similar quotes, hence the multiple posts

Anthem
07-13-2011, 12:23 AM
In all seriousness, does anyone else think the "Lance hype" is bizarre?
Me too. I can accept that he's capable of maturing. I can imagine him learning the concept of defense and becoming a legit NBA player. But what kind of ceiling are we talking, here? J.Jack? Ty Evans? Can he ever become a true point guard?

It's hard for me to imagine the kid ever becoming a player at Granger's level, let alone better. I'll be happy if he can hold a spot in the rotation.

Anthem
07-13-2011, 12:24 AM
Don't take this wrong but did we really need another seperate thread for this? Couldn't this have gone in the other thread as a counter point to say that this is praise for Lance?

Just my :twocents:
Sure, but it's not uncommon for a new article to get a new thread.

Pacersalltheway10
07-13-2011, 01:29 AM
He's got All Star potential. If he uses his abilities right and doesn't get in trouble , he's going to be special.

Trophy
07-13-2011, 10:43 AM
He's doing everything he should to get better this offseason and I tip my hat off to him for putting in the hardwork and effort.

It'll pay off and it appears it has been considering he's been tearing it up in the camps and such.

His head's been on basketball and is making his new home Indy which is great.

He's a nice guy. I just felt that he was a little confused last season and now that he's in the pros, that immature nature will not be tolerated. Especially by the Pacers.

Taterhead
07-13-2011, 11:13 AM
Me too. I can accept that he's capable of maturing. I can imagine him learning the concept of defense and becoming a legit NBA player. But what kind of ceiling are we talking, here? J.Jack? Ty Evans? Can he ever become a true point guard?

It's hard for me to imagine the kid ever becoming a player at Granger's level, let alone better. I'll be happy if he can hold a spot in the rotation.

This statement puzzles me. Do you think Bird would say he was our best player is he was a Jarrett Jack level talent?

Lance has the size and all the skills to be a dominant PG.

joew8302
07-13-2011, 03:11 PM
This statement puzzles me. Do you think Bird would say he was our best player is he was a Jarrett Jack level talent?

Lance has the size and all the skills to be a dominant PG.

So you are basing this off of a guy who drafted Shawne Williams and traded to get James White. Remember him saying great stuff about them? Lets not make Larry out to be the Nostradamus of projecting young talent in the NBA. I mean where on earth do you get off Lance has the ability to be a "dominant" point guard? For goodness sakes, he was drafted what? 43? Lots of dominant players have went that late I suppose.

I am with Anthem. What is Lance's ceiling? I have no idea. But if he was the next Kobe Bryant and his talent level was so great wouldn't he have got some time in front of the immortal Brandon Rush, AJ Price or Dhantay Jones?

TheDon
07-13-2011, 04:38 PM
This statement puzzles me. Do you think Bird would say he was our best player is he was a Jarrett Jack level talent?

Lance has the size and all the skills to be a dominant PG.

To go along with what joew has said he's also said things like we're going to get "one of the best shooters in the league" or something along those lines and that turned out to be travis diener.

I don't fault Larry for saying these things though it's something to have someone of Bird's stature to have that kind of belief in you to motivate you. It really is not that different than say Rex Ryan every year saying the Jets are going to win the super bowl, except Larry isn't a loudmouthd blowhard like Rex is :D

90'sNBARocked
07-13-2011, 04:46 PM
So you are basing this off of a guy who drafted Shawne Williams and traded to get James White. Remember him saying great stuff about them? Lets not make Larry out to be the Nostradamus of projecting young talent in the NBA. I mean where on earth do you get off Lance has the ability to be a "dominant" point guard? For goodness sakes, he was drafted what? 43? Lots of dominant players have went that late I suppose.

I am with Anthem. What is Lance's ceiling? I have no idea. But if he was the next Kobe Bryant and his talent level was so great wouldn't he have got some time in front of the immortal Brandon Rush, AJ Price or Dhantay Jones?

You realize Kobe Bryant was traded for an aging Vlade Divac

TheDon
07-13-2011, 04:49 PM
You realize Kobe Bryant was traded for an aging Vlade Divac

comparing trading for james white the same as trading divac for kobe?

**clears throat to sing**

one of these things is not like the other....

Since86
07-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Because Kobe's agent made it pretty clear that Kobe wanted to go to LA, and they would hold out on it. John Calipari, as the coach of the Nets, wanted to select Kobe earlier in the draft, but didn't because of it.



Only Bryant wasn't about to wait years for his liberation. He called Calipari after the coach's lunch with Taub, and Bryant's agent, Arn Tellem, called Nash. Prospect and agent declared they wanted no part of Jersey; Tellem even threatened that his client would play in Italy if the Nets ignored their wishes.



Nash met with a panicked Calipari and tried to calm the coach. The GM made some phone calls and figured out that the Lakers (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers)' Jerry West had reached an agreement with Charlotte, holding the 13th pick, to trade Vlade Divac (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/205/vlade-divac) for Bryant; West was confident that Kobe would make it to No. 13 if the Nets passed at No. 8.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=oconnor_ian&id=6255802

Sookie
07-13-2011, 04:58 PM
Because Kobe's agent made it pretty clear that Kobe wanted to go to LA, and they would hold out on it. John Calipari, as the coach of the Nets, wanted to select Kobe earlier in the draft, but didn't because of it.


http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=oconnor_ian&id=6255802

That story has been pushed around a lot, but LA was getting Charlotte's 13th pick, regardless of whether it was Kobe drafted or not. That deal was made in advance.

90'sNBARocked
07-13-2011, 05:00 PM
Because Kobe's agent made it pretty clear that Kobe wanted to go to LA, and they would hold out on it. John Calipari, as the coach of the Nets, wanted to select Kobe earlier in the draft, but didn't because of it.


http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=oconnor_ian&id=6255802

I understand , my point was two fold.

Kobe was not that highly thought of (as far as a potential superstar) and drafted 13th

Lance, had he come straight from HS, without baggage would have been a lottery pick I believe.

Maybe not the best example but point being he generatedd enough interest that I dont think its outrageous to think he could one day be a star

joew8302
07-13-2011, 05:06 PM
I understand , my point was two fold.

Kobe was not that highly thought of (as far as a potential superstar) and drafted 13th

Lance, had he come straight from HS, without baggage would have been a lottery pick I believe.

Maybe not the best example but point being he generatedd enough interest that I dont think its outrageous to think he could one day be a star

Ok, there is a big difference between 13 and 42, big.

You can believe what you want, but Lance was a 42nd pick. I hope you are right, and Lance is a cross between Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. But right now he is a young kid who can't get time with some pretty medicore talent in front of him and apparently smells bad to his teammates.

90'sNBARocked
07-13-2011, 05:36 PM
Ok, there is a big difference between 13 and 42, big.

You can believe what you want, but Lance was a 42nd pick. I hope you are right, and Lance is a cross between Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. But right now he is a young kid who can't get time with some pretty medicore talent in front of him and apparently smells bad to his teammates.

dont forget Hakeem Olijuwan as well

Taterhead
07-13-2011, 07:03 PM
So you are basing this off of a guy who drafted Shawne Williams and traded to get James White. Remember him saying great stuff about them? Lets not make Larry out to be the Nostradamus of projecting young talent in the NBA. I mean where on earth do you get off Lance has the ability to be a "dominant" point guard? For goodness sakes, he was drafted what? 43? Lots of dominant players have went that late I suppose.

I am with Anthem. What is Lance's ceiling? I have no idea. But if he was the next Kobe Bryant and his talent level was so great wouldn't he have got some time in front of the immortal Brandon Rush, AJ Price or Dhantay Jones?

Who did you draft? Why the hell am I listening to you? Nevermind.

xBulletproof
07-13-2011, 07:12 PM
Who did you draft? Why the hell am I listening to you? Nevermind.

Wow, you're the same guy I saw razzing someone else about being smug in another topic?

Huh.

joew8302
07-13-2011, 08:29 PM
Who did you draft? Why the hell am I listening to you? Nevermind.

Oh man, sounds like I made someone internet mad. I am sorry, still friends?

Taterhead
07-13-2011, 08:33 PM
Wow, you're the same guy I saw razzing someone else about being smug in another topic?

Huh.

Everyone knows I'm smug, I was just point out that he was too.

But seriously, what does Shawne Williams or James White have to do with Lance Stephenson's ability as an NBA player? I don't remember Larry ever proclaiming either one our best player. Bird isn't making that claim based on nothing. And he sure isn't an idiot with a bad track record evaluating talent. He has had some misses, like everyone else. But lets not paint him to be David Kahn.


Oh man, sounds like I made someone internet mad. I am sorry, still friends?

Were we friends joe?

I admire your passive aggressive attack, and I am not mad what so ever.

Anthem
07-14-2011, 12:37 AM
Everyone knows I'm smug, I was just point out that he was too.

But seriously, what does Shawne Williams or James White have to do with Lance Stephenson's ability as an NBA player? I don't remember Larry ever proclaiming either one our best player. Bird isn't making that claim based on nothing. And he sure isn't an idiot with a bad track record evaluating talent. He has had some misses, like everyone else. But lets not paint him to be David Kahn.
Nobody's saying he was a bad pick at 42. I'm just saying that we shouldn't put too much weight on Larry's statement. He said the same things about Jamaal Tinsley and Ron Artest.

I'm not dismissing Larry's moves, which I think have been quite good. I'm just saying he sometimes hypes players for reasons other than his own personal excitement. My original post just said that the hype seemed odd.

Do you really see this kid becoming better than Danny?

Anthem
07-14-2011, 12:41 AM
Everyone knows I'm smug, I was just point out that he was too.
He may not be right (always a possibility), but there wasn't anything smug about his comment.

Kemo
07-14-2011, 06:13 AM
Nobody's saying he was a bad pick at 42. I'm just saying that we shouldn't put too much weight on Larry's statement. He said the same things about Jamaal Tinsley and Ron Artest.



Well to be fair, Tinsley was DAMN GOOD for us for awhile, up untill around the last 2 years he was an active player on the roster with us ..

and Ron , he still is a pretty good player, albeit batchit crazy .. and you cannot deny how good he was for us when Bird was coach, and up untill the brawl.

Since86
07-14-2011, 10:22 AM
Well to be fair, Tinsley was DAMN GOOD for us for awhile, up untill around the last 2 years he was an active player on the roster with us ..

and Ron , he still is a pretty good player, albeit batchit crazy .. and you cannot deny how good he was for us when Bird was coach, and up untill the brawl.

Anthem only used two examples.

Larry also said he was going to sign one of the best shooters in the league, and then went out and signed Travis Deiner. Larry likes to exaggerate a tad bit.

pacer4ever
07-14-2011, 10:28 AM
Anthem only used two examples.

Larry also said he was going to sign one of the best shooters in the league, and then went out and signed Travis Deiner. Larry likes to exaggerate a tad bit.

Travis Denier is a hell of a shooter problem is thats all he can do and he is like 5'9

Since86
07-14-2011, 10:51 AM
Yes, he's a good shooter, no one will deny that. But he's not one of the best shooters in the league. That's the exaggeration part, and that was what Bird said.

90'sNBARocked
07-14-2011, 11:12 AM
Anthem only used two examples.

Larry also said he was going to sign one of the best shooters in the league, and then went out and signed Travis Deiner. Larry likes to exaggerate a tad bit.

true but was it that he said he wantedd to sign one of the best shooters in the league, but all he could get was Travis Diener

OR

was Bird saying he was getting one of the best shooters in the league, knowing he was about to sign Diener

imawhat
07-14-2011, 11:15 AM
We already had the player when Larry made the statement. I was never clear on whether he was talking about Diener or Kareem Rush, but in either case it was an exaggeration, which Larry is prone to.

El Pacero
07-14-2011, 11:18 AM
Travis Denier is a hell of a shooter problem is thats all he can do and he is like 5'9

When he was getting a lot of minutes, I felt more confident with Diener running the point than anyone else we had at the time.

Since86
07-14-2011, 11:26 AM
true but was it that he said he wantedd to sign one of the best shooters in the league, but all he could get was Travis Diener

OR

was Bird saying he was getting one of the best shooters in the league, knowing he was about to sign Diener

He said he was going too, not wanted. I remember it pretty clearly, because it raised quite a stink when it happened around here. Lot's of "this is your best shooter?" type comments etc.

He was still being referred to as the "Boomer for adults" and it just added fuel to the fire because it was one of his first FA signings.

Hicks
07-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Yes, he's a good shooter, no one will deny that. But he's not one of the best shooters in the league. That's the exaggeration part, and that was what Bird said.

He was coming off of at least one season shooting more than 40% from 3. That made him one of the best shooters in the league, strictly speaking.

Some people don't find that good enough, and have to incorporate more complicated criteria, but the bottom line is, if you're shooting that well from the NBA 3-line, and there's plenty of attempts to go with it, you're a damned good shooter, and one of the best in the league.

People were just too wrapped up in the fantasy that he meant someone like Ray Allen, and Ray Allen is not Ray Allen just because he's one of the best shooters in the league.

Since86
07-14-2011, 11:58 AM
I know, I'm not saying he wasn't/isn't one of the best. But you've shown that there was the debate, that's all I'm commenting on. That Bird said he was going to sign one of the best shooters, he signed Diener, and it made people raise their eyebrows about it.

It just shows Larry is a little loose with his descriptions, or a lot loose depending on what your stance is.

Hicks
07-14-2011, 12:01 PM
I know, I'm not saying he wasn't/isn't one of the best. But you've shown that there was the debate, that's all I'm commenting on. That Bird said he was going to sign one of the best shooters, he signed Diener, and it made people raise their eyebrows about it.

It just shows Larry is a little lose with his descriptions.

Right; I think we're on the same page.

That whole thing always annoyed me because everyone (should have) realized that we had no money or assets to go get a Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Michael Redd "best shooter" kind of guy, yet it didn't stop people form fantasizing, and then once their expectations got so high, of course they were then majorly disappointed when we signed Travis Diener and (who I guess also might have been who Larry was thinking of) Kareem Rush that summer.

I expected small frys, and that's what we got, but some people let their imaginations set them up for disappointment.

By the way, I looked, and actually Diener only had one stellar shooting season. His first year in Orlando, he averaged 10mpg, 2.5 3pa per game, and hit just shy of 44% from 3.

Interestingly, he never shot better than 39% from it the rest of his career, and his career average is a modest 35%. Go figure.

Hicks
07-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Anyway, this praise of Lance feels more like the praise of Tinsley to me than does it remind me of the "one of the best shooters" talk.

Once upon a time, Larry expected Jamaal Tinsley to be the next Indiana Pacer in the all-star game, and at that time, it was a valid expectation to put on Jamaal. I think that's what he's doing with Lance. Lance is pretty talented, but that 10 cent head of his severely threatens his potential in this league.

I think Larry is simultaneously putting it on Lance to try to work hard and achiever whatever his ceiling may be, while also expressing that he thinks he really is pretty talented.

I know there's disagreement on that.

Taterhead
07-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Nobody's saying he was a bad pick at 42. I'm just saying that we shouldn't put too much weight on Larry's statement. He said the same things about Jamaal Tinsley and Ron Artest.

I'm not dismissing Larry's moves, which I think have been quite good. I'm just saying he sometimes hypes players for reasons other than his own personal excitement. My original post just said that the hype seemed odd.

Do you really see this kid becoming better than Danny?

Fair enough.

I've thought Lance was gonna be a great pro the first time I ever seen him play, which was about 4-5 years ago. So Larry's statement resonates with me a little different than most. I think the kid is in the top 5-10% of NBA players in terms of natural ability. That is just my opinion so you can take that for it's worth. Now as far as whether he'll be better than Granger.....we all know that is impossible to say right now. But his ceiling IMO, is MUCH higher. And again, that is just my opinion. But, you know me and you have widely differing opinions on Danny as well as Stephenson.

90'sNBARocked
07-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Fair enough.

I've thought Lance was gonna be a great pro the first time I ever seen him play, which was about 4-5 years ago. So Larry's statement resonates with me a little different than most. I think the kid is in the top 5-10% of NBA players in terms of natural ability. That is just my opinion so you can take that for it's worth. Now as far as whether he'll be better than Granger.....we all know that is impossible to say right now. But his ceiling IMO, is MUCH higher. And again, that is just my opinion. But, you know me and you have widely differing opinions on Danny as well as Stephenson.

I agree and think those are valid points. Lance was not your typical second round pick or #42. He is a guy whose pure talent and potetnial would have made him a lottery pick (several scouts have said as much) if not for off court drama

Hence why all the talk and excitement

Strummer
07-14-2011, 02:41 PM
I think Larry is simultaneously putting it on Lance to try to work hard and achiever whatever his ceiling may be, while also expressing that he thinks he really is pretty talented.


I think that's probably true.

But I think there's another element to it. The local press was writing articles before the season began saying that the coaching staff was tired of having to repeat themselves to Lance and were ready to give up on him. Then they'd always tack on a few paragraphs lamenting his guaranteed contract.

Everything I heard from the Pacers (not filtered thru Wells) always said the opposite.

I think in many of Larry's statements about Lance he was just trying to refute what Wells was reporting. If he had come out and just said "we're not giving up on Lance" then everyone would have seen it as the dreaded "vote of confidence". So instead Larry went big with the praise.

I don't think Larry would have felt it necessary to make those statements were he not trying to correct false impressions spread by Wells.

Kemo
07-14-2011, 08:13 PM
We already had the player when Larry made the statement. I was never clear on whether he was talking about Diener or Kareem Rush, but in either case it was an exaggeration, which Larry is prone to.

Ya, I believe it was Kareem Rush he was talking about..

Anthem
07-14-2011, 11:47 PM
I think in many of Larry's statements about Lance he was just trying to refute what Wells was reporting. If he had come out and just said "we're not giving up on Lance" then everyone would have seen it as the dreaded "vote of confidence". So instead Larry went big with the praise.
That makes sense.

NapTonius Monk
07-15-2011, 09:05 PM
Oh man, sounds like I made someone internet mad. I am sorry, still friends?
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dro1303l.jpg

spazzxb
07-15-2011, 10:07 PM
He said he was going too, not wanted. I remember it pretty clearly, because it raised quite a stink when it happened around here. Lot's of "this is your best shooter?" type comments etc.

He was still being referred to as the "Boomer for adults" and it just added fuel to the fire because it was one of his first FA signings.

Saying something is true because you remember people raising a stink about it here is not remotely credible.:-)

I remember the situation but I am pretty certain it was said prior to signing Diener. I believe it was possible that we missed on Birds target. However, My memory is no more a credible than yours.

Edit: to be clear, I was implying that people rant on things that aren't accurate occasionally.

ballism
07-16-2011, 07:50 AM
I don't have huge expectations, but if he manages to be a competent 5th guard without distractions, it's a major win. Anything above that - a cherry on top.

DrFife
07-16-2011, 10:52 AM
I don't have huge expectations, but if he manages to be a competent 5th guard without distractions, it's a major win. Anything above that - a cherry on top.

Humor for the day: As soon as my eyes passed by the word expectations, my brain got creative and read the next phrase as "... but if he manages to act like a competent 5th-grader"....

Taterhead
07-16-2011, 10:58 PM
I think in many of Larry's statements about Lance he was just trying to refute what Wells was reporting. If he had come out and just said "we're not giving up on Lance" then everyone would have seen it as the dreaded "vote of confidence". So instead Larry went big with the praise.

I don't think Larry would have felt it necessary to make those statements were he not trying to correct false impressions spread by Wells.

I think this is a really good point and something that I hadn't put too much thought into until you mentioned it. I absolutely don't doubt this is a huge reason for him speaking out. I think Bird takes the criticism from Wells as a direct shot at him and was being a little defensive about it. However, I do believe Larry thinks Lance is our most talented player. And if he could go back and say most talented, instead of "best player" he probably would, and should. Lance is not our best player until he has proven it on the court and shouldn't be hyped as so. Mainly because it is an insult to the guys who actually did it on the court for the whole season last year, and especially Granger who has been our best player for several years now.


When he was getting a lot of minutes, I felt more confident with Diener running the point than anyone else we had at the time.

Diener was by far the best PG on the roster and I always thought he should of been starting, as sad as that is to say. His weakness was his defense obviously, but it's not like TJ Ford was playing defense on a consistent basis anyways. Offensively though, he has a real nice game. I was a huge fan of his in college and loved watching him and Wade play together.

doctor-h
07-17-2011, 11:17 AM
Your not smug taterhead, you're right. To compare Lance with Shawne Williams or James White does not make sense. There is no comparison as far as talent goes. I think sometimes somebody sees something in someone that other people don't. Maybe that is what Larry is seeing. Sometimes someone believing in you can help you turn your life around and achieve the success that you are capable of. If that happens with Lance that would be a great thing for the Pacers. But most of all, it would be great for him. I hope Larry is right, but even if he is not, it doesn't hurt to try. There have been many so called lost causes that have turned out great because someone believed it could.

xBulletproof
07-17-2011, 01:08 PM
Your not smug taterhead, you're right. To compare Lance with Shawne Williams or James White does not make sense.

Meh, if that's the point the person was making when he replied, sure some would think he's right. However, it wasn't the point, so it's a pretty useless comparison.

The point is Taterhead puts blind trust in Larry being right, when obviously Larry isn't always right. The examples? Shawne and James White. That was the point made, it had nothing to do with talent, or not talented. Larry believed Shawne and White were very talented too.

That said, I don't agree that Lance is more 'talented' than Shawne anyway. If both were in the draft at 19/20 years old, I'd take Shawne. Obviously most NBA people agree. Shawne was going to go in the first round even if we didn't take him, and Lance didn't. Anything else is going to be hindsight because we already know how Shawne turned out.

xBulletproof
07-17-2011, 01:11 PM
When he was getting a lot of minutes, I felt more confident with Diener running the point than anyone else we had at the time.

I felt that way too, but when a guy gets limited minutes it's easier to feel that way. Teams aren't prepared for that guy to play, and they don't game plan to attack that guys weaknesses.

I know what you mean, but I always felt with extended minutes would come more stressing of his weaknesses.

Hicks
07-17-2011, 01:13 PM
That said, I don't agree that Lance is more 'talented' than Shawne anyway. If both were in the draft at 19/20 years old, I'd take Shawne. Obviously most NBA people agree. Shawne was going to go in the first round even if we didn't take him, and Lance didn't. Anything else is going to be hindsight because we already know how Shawne turned out.

You think Lance was a 2nd round pick because of his talent level? I don't.

xBulletproof
07-17-2011, 01:35 PM
You think Lance was a 2nd round pick because of his talent level? I don't.

In a league where DeMarcus Cousins just went top 5? Of course. He didn't just fall out of the first round. How many teams in the 2nd round even passed on 'all that talent' with an unguaranteed contract? If he was taken with one of the first couple 2nd round picks then maybe I would see that argument. He wasn't though. Even without guaranteed contracts teams weren't interested.

I do, and always have believed this talent concept with Lance is manufactured more than it exists. If he was half as talented as the hype would indicate here, he'd have been a 1st rounder. Rarely do teams pass on talent for any reason.

pacer4ever
07-17-2011, 01:39 PM
In a league where DeMarcus Cousins just went top 5? Of course. He didn't just fall out of the first round. How many teams in the 2nd round even passed on 'all that talent' with an unguaranteed contract? If he was taken with one of the first couple 2nd round picks then maybe I would see that argument. He wasn't though. Even without guaranteed contracts teams weren't interested.

I do, and always have believed this talent concept with Lance is manufactured more than it exists. If he was half as talented as the hype would indicate here, he'd have been a 1st rounder. Rarely do teams pass on talent for any reason.

Lances past is much much worse than Cousins. Plus Cousins was arguably the most talented player in the draft.

xBulletproof
07-17-2011, 02:00 PM
Lances past is much much worse than Cousins. Plus Cousins was arguably the most talented player in the draft.

Lance grabbed a girls butt, and got in a fight with a teammate once. Let's not act like he's a convicted murderer. His worst off the court incident happened after the draft.

I see nothing there that would effect his draft status too severely.

pacer4ever
07-17-2011, 02:06 PM
Lance grabbed a girls butt, and got in a fight with a teammate once. Let's not act like he's a convicted murderer. His worst off the court incident happened after the draft.

I see nothing there that would effect his draft status too severely.

trust me lances repp coming out was terrible a guy i know said lance has done crazy things. He said he wouldn't of touched lance just due to what he has done in his past.

Sookie
07-17-2011, 07:36 PM
Lance grabbed a girls butt, and got in a fight with a teammate once. Let's not act like he's a convicted murderer. His worst off the court incident happened after the draft.

I see nothing there that would effect his draft status too severely.

Lance had an abysmal reputation coming into the pros. From being considered a team cancer to "off the court stuff." There were rumors that his college coach pretty much made him leave.

That said, if he was the best player on the team, like Larry said..I'm sorry, we would have found minutes for him. Sacramento managed to find minutes for Cousins.

pacers74
07-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Lets at least let Lance play this season before we say he is a bust or a star. I rooting for Lance and will give him at least another year to prove himself. I hope the work he was doing with Clark before the lockout has a positive effect on him. If he is a bust are we really hurting the team by keping him here now. If he doesn't pan out after they give him a chance they can just make him were a suit for the rest of the year and cut him after the season. No big lose, but if he pans out we could have a steal. Who knows, but lets not get all worked up about it. We might not even have a season, and we won't find out until 2012.

joew8302
07-17-2011, 09:48 PM
I still think people are looney about Lance here. Call me a hater, whatever. I am trying to be a realist.

Allen Iverson had issues before he got drafted and he was number 1 overall.

Garnett had issues; top 10 pick

Cousins had issues; top 10 pick

Jordan was an incredibly unbalanced person who hit his teammates, was a compulsive gambler and a not so nice guy in a lot of respects. Every NBA team would have wanted him.

If you are talented enough teams will overlook pretty much everything. The guys I have listed are living proof of that. Did Lance have issues, sure. But did his issues call him to drop 30 spots, like some of you are suggesting? How about you try to live in reality.

In 1 year in Cincinnati Lance averaged 12 points, had a 1:1 asst/turnover ratio, was less than a 70% foul shooter and shot 22% from the college 3 pt line.

This is the main reason he wasn't drafted high. His attitude was pretty bad, but we see guys with bad attitudes get picked high all the time. The difference between them and Lance is talent level.

bphil
07-17-2011, 10:08 PM
I still think people are looney about Lance here. Call me a hater, whatever. I am trying to be a realist.

Allen Iverson had issues before he got drafted and he was number 1 overall.

Garnett had issues; top 10 pick

Cousins had issues; top 10 pick

Jordan was an incredibly unbalanced person who hit his teammates, was a compulsive gambler and a not so nice guy in a lot of respects. Every NBA team would have wanted him.

If you are talented enough teams will overlook pretty much everything. The guys I have listed are living proof of that. Did Lance have issues, sure. But did his issues call him to drop 30 spots, like some of you are suggesting? How about you try to live in reality.

In 1 year in Cincinnati Lance averaged 12 points, had a 1:1 asst/turnover ratio, was less than a 70% foul shooter and shot 22% from the college 3 pt line.

This is the main reason he wasn't drafted high. His attitude was pretty bad, but we see guys with bad attitudes get picked high all the time. The difference between them and Lance is talent level.

This makes a lot of sense.

Hicks
07-17-2011, 11:10 PM
One man's issues are not necessarily identical, or even close, to another's.

joew8302
07-17-2011, 11:55 PM
One man's issues are not necessarily identical, or even close, to another's.

Absolutely. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. Lets try this.

Kevin Garnett- talent>issues
Allen Iverson- talent>issues
Michael Jordan- talent>>>>>issues
Demarcus Cousins- talent>issues

Lance Stephenson issues>talent

Lance's issues were not the driving force keeping him out of the lottery or even the top 25, it was his talent.

Taterhead
07-18-2011, 12:13 AM
Absolutely. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. Lets try this.

Kevin Garnett- talent>issues
Allen Iverson- talent>issues
Michael Jordan- talent>>>>>issues
Demarcus Cousins- talent>issues

Lance Stephenson issues>talent

Lance's issues were not the driving force keeping him out of the lottery or even the top 25, it was his talent.

You have no evidence to back that up. Players are not just evaluated on their talent during the draft process. Beyond that you are overlooking 2 very important things.....

1. Lance is a horrible interview. He is not very well spoken to say the least. That definitely hurts you in any type of interview process and evaluation.

2. He was evaluated as a SG. We moved him to PG. That changes everything. At PG he is a completely different player.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 12:27 AM
You have no evidence to back that up. Players are not just evaluated on their talent during the draft process. Beyond that you are overlooking 2 very important things.....

1. Lance is a horrible interview. He is not very well spoken to say the least. That definitely hurts you in any type of interview process and evaluation.

2. He was evaluated as a SG. We moved him to PG. That changes everything. At PG he is a completely different player.

Ok Lance's dad, i got it.

Lance Stephenson was the 40th pick in the draft. I went back starting in 1990 and found the best player in each draft selected 40th or lower. Here is what I found:

1990- Antonio Davis
1991- Bobby Phills
1992- Popeye Jones
1993-Bryon Russell
1994- Voshon Leonard
1995- Eric Snow
1996- Malik Rose
1997- Stephen Jackson
1998- Cuttino Mobley
1999- Manu Ginobili
2000- Michael Redd
2001- Jarron Collins
2002- Luis Scola
2003- Mo Williams
2004- Trevor Ariza
2005- Monta Ellis
2006- Paul Millsap
2007- Marc Gasol
2008- Darnell Jackson
2009- Chase Budinger

There you go, over the past 20 years there have been 400 or so picks between 40- the end of the draft. Here is THE BEST player, per year to have been selected in that time period. Sure, there are some good role players, and Ginobili is a star. Outside of Manu is there anyone on that list in there prime that you would trade for Danny Granger? My answer is no. When people want to compare Lance to Danny and say there is a chance he could be on his level, sure, there is a chance, but do you really realize how small that chance is?

Also, you notice how there aren’t too many guys with overwhelming talent on this list that just fell because of their “issues”. You may be able to chalk Stephen Jackson up to this. Most of these guys fell because they were unknown international guys (Scola, Manu), or because their measurables didn’t stack up but they have a heart of a lion (Davis, Millsap, Snow, Williams). Notice how Lance doesn’t fall in to either of these groups.

So go Lance, prove me and every single doubter wrong. I hope you become so good that this post will be constantly mocked throughout the coming decade. But the Lance loving, the Lance/Danny comparisons that are being made right now are utterly absurd, as was Bird’s comment about Lance. I do buy the motivational tactic; it is absurd from a practical point of view; which is obviously WAY over some people’s heads here.

Naptown_Seth
07-18-2011, 01:26 AM
He will not have a bigger fan if he backs it up...but this is just more talk. Let's see what he does this coming season (if they even play one).
You mean you don't think this is the year that David Harrison gets it, or that Bender is in the best shape of his life, or that JO is about to take over again, or that Tinsley has been really working out hard on his own in Atlanta, or that Ron is finally showing maturity, or that Shawne learned is lesson once Bird had to get on him about his court date, or....

There sure have been a lot of summers filled with a lot of promises. How many promises actually have come true - if you only count situations where a promise or change was warranted?


Maybe this time will be different, but it should be a MAJOR WARNING SIGN when you have to hype up a guy not being a jerk or actually showing some maturity.

It's not like Tim Duncan was 28 when he hit the NBA, and neither was Kevin Love or Kevin Durant. Plenty of young players somehow never need to have a story come out about how they are a lot more mature going into their sophomore year.

spazzxb
07-18-2011, 01:32 AM
Ok Lance's dad, i got it.

Lance Stephenson was the 40th pick in the draft. I went back starting in 1990 and found the best player in each draft selected 40th or lower. Here is what I found:

1990- Antonio Davis
1991- Bobby Phills
1992- Popeye Jones
1993-Bryon Russell
1994- Voshon Leonard
1995- Eric Snow
1996- Malik Rose
1997- Stephen Jackson
1998- Cuttino Mobley
1999- Manu Ginobili
2000- Michael Redd
2001- Jarron Collins
2002- Luis Scola
2003- Mo Williams
2004- Trevor Ariza
2005- Monta Ellis
2006- Paul Millsap
2007- Marc Gasol
2008- Darnell Jackson
2009- Chase Budinger

There you go, over the past 20 years there have been 400 or so picks between 40- the end of the draft. Here is THE BEST player, per year to have been selected in that time period. Sure, there are some good role players, and Ginobili is a star. Outside of Manu is there anyone on that list in there prime that you would trade for Danny Granger? My answer is no. When people want to compare Lance to Danny and say there is a chance he could be on his level, sure, there is a chance, but do you really realize how small that chance is?

Also, you notice how there aren’t too many guys with overwhelming talent on this list that just fell because of their “issues”. You may be able to chalk Stephen Jackson up to this. Most of these guys fell because they were unknown international guys (Scola, Manu), or because their measurables didn’t stack up but they have a heart of a lion (Davis, Millsap, Snow, Williams). Notice how Lance doesn’t fall in to either of these groups.

So go Lance, prove me and every single doubter wrong. I hope you become so good that this post will be constantly mocked throughout the coming decade. But the Lance loving, the Lance/Danny comparisons that are being made right now are utterly absurd, as was Bird’s comment about Lance. I do buy the motivational tactic; it is absurd from a practical point of view; which is obviously WAY over some people’s heads here.

this article is about Mr. 2005 being traded for Danny. I just got the link in a google alert and thought it was kinda funny with your post.

http://sports.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979647614

If Lance becomes Monta a lot of people will be eating crow. I would be happy. While the hype may be a bit much the hate is way worse. People have a grudge against the guy and won't give him a chance because of the alleged domestic violence case. You cannot have a fair discussion about Lance here, its impossible. Try to be nice about Lance and certain people are going to attack and it has nothing to do with basketball.

Naptown_Seth
07-18-2011, 01:35 AM
Ok Lance's dad, i got it.

Lance Stephenson was the 40th pick in the draft. I went back starting in 1990 and found the best player in each draft selected 40th or lower. Here is what I found:

1990- Antonio Davis
1991- Bobby Phills
1992- Popeye Jones
1993-Bryon Russell
1994- Voshon Leonard
1995- Eric Snow
1996- Malik Rose
1997- Stephen Jackson
1998- Cuttino Mobley
1999- Manu Ginobili
2000- Michael Redd
2001- Jarron Collins
2002- Luis Scola
2003- Mo Williams
2004- Trevor Ariza
2005- Monta Ellis
2006- Paul Millsap
2007- Marc Gasol
2008- Darnell Jackson
2009- Chase Budinger

There you go, over the past 20 years there have been 400 or so picks between 40- the end of the draft. Here is THE BEST player, per year to have been selected in that time period. Sure, there are some good role players, and Ginobili is a star. Outside of Manu is there anyone on that list in there prime that you would trade for Danny Granger? My answer is no. When people want to compare Lance to Danny and say there is a chance he could be on his level, sure, there is a chance, but do you really realize how small that chance is?

Also, you notice how there aren’t too many guys with overwhelming talent on this list that just fell because of their “issues”. You may be able to chalk Stephen Jackson up to this. Most of these guys fell because they were unknown international guys (Scola, Manu), or because their measurables didn’t stack up but they have a heart of a lion (Davis, Millsap, Snow, Williams). Notice how Lance doesn’t fall in to either of these groups.

So go Lance, prove me and every single doubter wrong. I hope you become so good that this post will be constantly mocked throughout the coming decade. But the Lance loving, the Lance/Danny comparisons that are being made right now are utterly absurd, as was Bird’s comment about Lance. I do buy the motivational tactic; it is absurd from a practical point of view; which is obviously WAY over some people’s heads here.
And more importantly would be the much harder to compile list which would feature all the highly rated HS prospects that dropped like a rock and never recovered due to motivation or attitude.

Plenty of guys pull a "James White", way more than go the other way and bust their butt to prove doubters wrong.

There are guys who are not considered top talent who fight through to make it, but where is the list of guys who blow their elite status in college only to later find motivation and make everyone pay for letting them drop due to their original terrible attitude?

Taterhead
07-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Ok Lance's dad, i got it.

Lance Stephenson was the 40th pick in the draft. I went back starting in 1990 and found the best player in each draft selected 40th or lower. Here is what I found:

1990- Antonio Davis
1991- Bobby Phills
1992- Popeye Jones
1993-Bryon Russell
1994- Voshon Leonard
1995- Eric Snow
1996- Malik Rose
1997- Stephen Jackson
1998- Cuttino Mobley
1999- Manu Ginobili
2000- Michael Redd
2001- Jarron Collins
2002- Luis Scola
2003- Mo Williams
2004- Trevor Ariza
2005- Monta Ellis
2006- Paul Millsap
2007- Marc Gasol
2008- Darnell Jackson
2009- Chase Budinger

There you go, over the past 20 years there have been 400 or so picks between 40- the end of the draft. Here is THE BEST player, per year to have been selected in that time period. Sure, there are some good role players, and Ginobili is a star. Outside of Manu is there anyone on that list in there prime that you would trade for Danny Granger? My answer is no. When people want to compare Lance to Danny and say there is a chance he could be on his level, sure, there is a chance, but do you really realize how small that chance is?

Also, you notice how there aren’t too many guys with overwhelming talent on this list that just fell because of their “issues”. You may be able to chalk Stephen Jackson up to this. Most of these guys fell because they were unknown international guys (Scola, Manu), or because their measurables didn’t stack up but they have a heart of a lion (Davis, Millsap, Snow, Williams). Notice how Lance doesn’t fall in to either of these groups.

So go Lance, prove me and every single doubter wrong. I hope you become so good that this post will be constantly mocked throughout the coming decade. But the Lance loving, the Lance/Danny comparisons that are being made right now are utterly absurd, as was Bird’s comment about Lance. I do buy the motivational tactic; it is absurd from a practical point of view; which is obviously WAY over some people’s heads here.


I love how you label Bird's opinion "absurd", but at the same time you classify yours as "practical". I guess ignoring the fact Bird has watched hundreds of hours of tape, put Stephenson through several interviews and workouts, and seen him in practice on a regular basis and you haven't, is pretty "practical". It doesn't matter if he slipped because teams didn't think he was talented, teams make mistakes all the time.

Whether Bird was trying to motivate him by calling him the best player on the team or not does not matter. Because he wouldn't bother trying to motivate a player who isn't very talented. He definitely wouldn't do it at the risk of pissing off his most accomplished player. You all can spin the truth any which way you want. But Larry thinks Lance is very good, and it's because of his talent.

Anyways, just to show you how absurd your POV is............Here is a team I just put together in just a few seconds from guys on your list. It's pretty good for guys every team in the league passed on.

Monta Ellis
Stephen Jackson
Trevor Ariza
Luis Scola
Marc Gasol

Mo Williams
Manu Ginobili
Chase Budinger
Paul Millsap
Jarron Collins

We would have a very hard time beating them. And a lot of other people would too. So obviously there are guys on that list who can play. In fact you just proved that you can find them pretty regularly. There is a good chance we found one with Lance Stephenson, whether you like it or not. Which you should, because you are supposed to be a Pacers fan right?

Reginald
07-18-2011, 02:21 PM
Full disclosure: I'm decidedly in the anti-Lance camp. I thought he came with too much baggage and that giving him a guaranteed contract as a second-round pick was just plain stupid. His decided lack of emotional maturity through the course of his rookie year backed up pretty much all of our misgivings.

That being said, let's look at Lance's whole body of work, and not just a so-so season at UC or a rookie NBA season that by any reasonable measure never really got off the ground. In case I missed something, he's still the most prolific scorer in the history of New York high school basketball who during his prep career outplayed and outshined guys like John Wall and OJ Mayo. The talent is there. The composure isn't.

xBulletproof
07-18-2011, 02:23 PM
I guess if you find 8 out of 400 to be 'pretty regularly' ..... I suppose that's your right.

Meh.

Hicks
07-18-2011, 02:28 PM
I'm clearly not in the Lance fan club, but I'm always a little astonished at some people's rush to dismiss his talent almost as much as I am other people's rush to praise him for common behavior normally taken for granted.

I see a pretty talented player with an even more disturbing amount of baggage/concerns, hence him being there at #40.

I still don't see a happy ending here, by the way.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 03:07 PM
I love how you label Bird's opinion "absurd", but at the same time you classify yours as "practical". I guess ignoring the fact Bird has watched hundreds of hours of tape, put Stephenson through several interviews and workouts, and seen him in practice on a regular basis and you haven't, is pretty "practical". It doesn't matter if he slipped because teams didn't think he was talented, teams make mistakes all the time.

Whether Bird was trying to motivate him by calling him the best player on the team or not does not matter. Because he wouldn't bother trying to motivate a player who isn't very talented. He definitely wouldn't do it at the risk of pissing off his most accomplished player. You all can spin the truth any which way you want. But Larry thinks Lance is very good, and it's because of his talent.

Anyways, just to show you how absurd your POV is............Here is a team I just put together in just a few seconds from guys on your list. It's pretty good for guys every team in the league passed on.

Monta Ellis
Stephen Jackson
Trevor Ariza
Luis Scola
Marc Gasol

Mo Williams
Manu Ginobili
Chase Budinger
Paul Millsap
Jarron Collins

We would have a very hard time beating them. And a lot of other people would too. So obviously there are guys on that list who can play. In fact you just proved that you can find them pretty regularly. There is a good chance we found one with Lance Stephenson, whether you like it or not. Which you should, because you are supposed to be a Pacers fan right?

*removed* More disrespectful than constructive That list was of THE BEST players drafted. Out of 400 or so players drafted in that area in the past 20 years those were the very best. Notice, other than Ginobili there aren't perennial all stars in there. I mean Jarron Collins was the best player in that range one year. I could make a list 5 miles long of the players drafted in that area that were never heard from again. And I have no idea what you are trying to prove by putting them on a hypothetical team together, what are you even arguing?

No one here is hating Lance, in this discussion you have realists and people lusting over a mid 2nd round pick for reasons unknown. Realists know Lance was picked 40th primarily because his body of work at Cincinnati wasn't all that impressive. The people with a man crush for Lance think he has Granger like potential and would have been a lottery pick if not for a bad attitude. Good call there.

CableKC
07-18-2011, 03:11 PM
I'm clearly not in the Lance fan club, but I'm always a little astonished at some people's rush to dismiss his talent almost as much as I am other people's rush to praise him for common behavior normally taken for granted.

I see a pretty talented player with an even more disturbing amount of baggage/concerns, hence him being there at #40.

I still don't see a happy ending here, by the way.
I could probably respond in a few ways to this last part of your post...but I'll resist the temptation. ;) :D

Instead, I will agree with you on this whole Lance Love/Hate discussion. I've stayed out of it for the most part...cuz...honestly...I have no clue why it is such a hot-topic and why it brings up such heated debates when it comes to a Player that has proved little to me...one way or another.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 03:42 PM
I did a little more research on the topic. Here are some stats of guys I had on my list of “best of the best from 40 and under since 1990”. This is what their first year in the league looked like compared to Lance’s. Pretty interesting stuff right here:

Monta Ellis- 49 games played/18 mpg/7 ppg
Stephen Jackson- 77 games played/ 21.6 mpg/8ppg
Trevor Ariza- 80 games played/17 mpg/ 6ppg
Luis Scola- 82 games played/ 24.7 mpg/10.6 ppg
Mark Gasol- 82 games played/30.7 mpg/11.9ppg
Mo Williams- 57 games played/13.5 mpg/5ppg
Manu Ginobili- 69 games played/20.7mpg/7.6 ppg
Chase Budinger- 74 games played/20.1 mpg/8.9 ppg
Paul Millsap - 82 games played/ 18mpg/6.8 ppg

Lance Stephenson- 12 GAMES PLAYED/9.6 mpg/3.1 ppg

Gee, all of these guys have something in common except for one. Bet you can’t guess who that one is? The guys you mention are all guys that were talented enough to at least scratch the rotation and log decent minutes their rookie seasons. If Lance had all of this “raw ability” don’t you think he would have got time over AJ Price, Dhantay Jones and Brandon Rush? Oh well, Lance lovers do not fear, I am sure taterhead will come back with some interpretation of these stats to show they are actually in Lance’s favor.

Reginald
07-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Gee, all of these guys have something in common except for one. Bet you can’t guess who that one is? The guys you mention are all guys that were talented enough to at least scratch the rotation and log decent minutes their rookie seasons. If Lance had all of this “raw ability” don’t you think he would have got time over AJ Price, Dhantay Jones and Brandon Rush? Oh well, Lance lovers do not fear, I am sure taterhead will come back with some interpretation of these stats to show they are actually in Lance’s favor.

Pretty sure most of the aforementioned players also shared something else in common: they didn't get drafted and coached by a lame duck regime. O'Brien was on the clock from practically the moment Lance was drafted, and after that it was all about Vogel finding the right team chemistry to right the ship.

And I don't know if I'd disparage someone for misinterpreting statistics in the same breath as you slant said stats for your own agenda. Lance was faced with different circumstances. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

joew8302
07-18-2011, 03:58 PM
Pretty sure most of the aforementioned players also shared something else in common: they didn't get drafted and coached by a lame duck regime. O'Brien was on the clock from practically the moment Lance was drafted, and after that it was all about Vogel finding the right team chemistry to right the ship.

And I don't know if I'd disparage someone for misinterpreting statistics in the same breath as you slant said stats for your own agenda. Lance was faced with different circumstances. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

Another apologist, sweet. So it was O'brien's fault Lance didn't do anything. I didn't see Frank running up Lance's minutes. Who will be the scapegoat for some of you now that O'Brien is gone?

And yes, you are right. Golden State was a championship level team when Monta was first on it. Houston was poised to win a title as was Marc Gasol with Memphis. The fact is there are a good number of these guys who got numbers/minutes on below 500 teams, you know, like Lance and Indiana.

Strummer
07-18-2011, 03:58 PM
If Lance had all of this “raw ability” don’t you think he would have got time over AJ Price, Dhantay Jones and Brandon Rush?

You think "raw ability" was why Lance didn't get much playing time this season? :rolleyes: I don't think you were paying attention. There was a different reason Lance didn't get much playing time.

Speed
07-18-2011, 03:59 PM
With the acquisition of George Hill and the development of Paul George, really anything Lance gives you is gravy to me.

He isn't going to be a make or break guy for this team, if he fails. Thats the level of interest I have in him, until he actually contributes in a meaningful way.

90'sNBARocked
07-18-2011, 05:26 PM
In reality , I think to sum it up is Lance has talent and potential due to a lot of different factors, Lance also has had issues that were both basketball and non basketball related

If given the opportunity to play consistent minutes, and assuming there are no issues with his behavior, he has as much potential as a lottery talent. Menaing there have been lottery all stars and lottery busts.

In the very brief time Lance has played professionally I think there has been enough flashes (a pass , certain shot etc) to think that he could become very good. The rest is up to him

Kemo
07-18-2011, 06:04 PM
Gee, all of these guys have something in common except for one. Bet you can’t guess who that one is? The guys you mention are all guys that were talented enough to at least scratch the rotation and log decent minutes their rookie seasons. If Lance had all of this “raw ability” don’t you think he would have got time over AJ Price, Dhantay Jones and Brandon Rush? Oh well, Lance lovers do not fear, I am sure taterhead will come back with some interpretation of these stats to show they are actually in Lance’s favor.

In all fairness, the reason why Lance didn't play almost all year, was due to TPTB waiting till Lance had his name legally cleared.. But at the time he is able to suit up, was when we were in the death-throes of the end of the Jim O'Brien era... couple that with the supposed locker-room ordeal .. and he was in a bad situation for playingtime with us playing the last few games to secure out 8th seed..

With being a rookie, and hardly any floortime , Vogel wasn't just gonna let him play in the playoffs..... especially when he hadn't earned it yet..and was still a little bit in the doghouse if I recall correctly.....

.
So once again, it all points to maturity issues more than any sort of "talent" issues ..

pacer4ever
08-09-2011, 01:09 PM
:bump:


I have been watching a lot of 80s Celtics the last few weeks. I don't think Lance plays a lot like him currently but Lance should model his game after Dennis Johnson. Like Dennis Lance isnt fast and quick like the elite scoring guards but he uses strength to get to the rim and score and play make. But Dennis was a very good floor general and a good play maker he used his 6'5 frame to his advantage. Dennis was a hell of a shooter something Lance will never be but if I was telling Lance to model his game after someone I would tell him Dennis Johnson. Who prided himself on defense and was a hell of a teammate. Lance will probably never come close to DJ but he should be a player he studies IMO.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Is2W2DAVvjc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sookie
08-09-2011, 06:42 PM
I think there's raw basketball talent with Lance. I do. But I also think he didn't get minutes for basketball related reasons. Not just because of the incident in the summer. And not just because of the locker room problems.

I think he doesn't know how to play team basketball. And I don't mean that he's selfish, or that he won't pass. I think he doesn't understand the fundamentals (IE, passing it to someone who can make a better pass than he can to a player that can get a shot) of the game being a five player game. And until he understands and applies that, he'll either hurt the team when he's in the game, or not play at all.

I disagree with the defense aspect though. He was quite poor, but I don't think he was so much worse than Collison and when he was in, he at least tried, so I don't think that defense kept him on the bench.

pacer4ever
08-09-2011, 07:25 PM
I think there's raw basketball talent with Lance. I do. But I also think he didn't get minutes for basketball related reasons. Not just because of the incident in the summer. And not just because of the locker room problems.

I think he doesn't know how to play team basketball. And I don't mean that he's selfish, or that he won't pass. I think he doesn't understand the fundamentals (IE, passing it to someone who can make a better pass than he can to a player that can get a shot) of the game being a five player game. And until he understands and applies that, he'll either hurt the team when he's in the game, or not play at all. [

thats 90% of the NBA now a days play that way
I disagree with the defense aspect though. He was quite poor, but I don't think he was so much worse than Collison and when he was in, he at least tried, so I don't think that defense kept him on the bench.

LOL where did I ever say he was good at defense? Or for that matter when has anybody? I was just naming a player that Lance should model his game after. The problem with the doesn't know how to play team ball is a new trending issue. Because AAU is really changing and it is hurting the NBA game. AAU is basically just 1v1 basketball and that is killing the american game IMO. I actually just went to an elite AAU tourney down in Orlando and they play a terrible brand of basketball (but so does 90% of the NBA)
.

90'sNBARocked
08-09-2011, 08:10 PM
I think there's raw basketball talent with Lance. I do. But I also think he didn't get minutes for basketball related reasons. Not just because of the incident in the summer. And not just because of the locker room problems.

I think he doesn't know how to play team basketball. And I don't mean that he's selfish, or that he won't pass. I think he doesn't understand the fundamentals (IE, passing it to someone who can make a better pass than he can to a player that can get a shot) of the game being a five player game. And until he understands and applies that, he'll either hurt the team when he's in the game, or not play at all.

I disagree with the defense aspect though. He was quite poor, but I don't think he was so much worse than Collison and when he was in, he at least tried, so I don't think that defense kept him on the bench.

I think thats a very fair and objective way to look at it

I am obviously on the Lance bandwagon and do believe that some of him not playing was realted to strickly basketball. Lance has not yet figured out how to integrate individual moves within a team structure

Sookie
08-10-2011, 01:07 PM
.
thats 90% of the NBA now a days play that way

LOL where did I ever say he was good at defense? Or for that matter when has anybody? I was just naming a player that Lance should model his game after. The problem with the doesn't know how to play team ball is a new trending issue. Because AAU is really changing and it is hurting the NBA game. AAU is basically just 1v1 basketball and that is killing the american game IMO. I actually just went to an elite AAU tourney down in Orlando and they play a terrible brand of basketball (but so does 90% of the NBA)

Teams that win don't play that way. And team's without a superstar CAN'T play that way or they will be extremely unsuccessful. TJ Ford's problem wasn't that he would constantly jump up in the air and lose the ball. But rather, he didn't understand those fundamental's either, would get himself stuck, and then would jump up and lose the ball.

My point was that I didn't think it was the defense that kept him on the bench, I thought it was offense. Simply because, there were players on the team that were just as bad defensively, that got to play a lot. And I felt, the few minutes that Lance played, that he was at least putting an effort into it.

pacer4ever
08-10-2011, 03:17 PM
Teams that win don't play that way. And team's without a superstar CAN'T play that way or they will be extremely unsuccessful. TJ Ford's problem wasn't that he would constantly jump up in the air and lose the ball. But rather, he didn't understand those fundamental's either, would get himself stuck, and then would jump up and lose the ball.

My point was that I didn't think it was the defense that kept him on the bench, I thought it was offense. Simply because, there were players on the team that were just as bad defensively, that got to play a lot. And I felt, the few minutes that Lance played, that he was at least putting an effort into it.

The problem I see in Lance is that he has never been coached properly. Growing up the offense was always give the ball to Lance and let him iso. Which was fine for him to get noticed and make a name for himself because he is pretty talented. But to be a good team player he needed to learn the game of basketball and learn the correct way to play. I just think he has never had a good coach until college. He probably should of stayed another few years to learn to play in a system. Like you said the 10% of teams that play the game the right and way are normally the teams who compete for a championship.


LBJ had this same problem coming into the NBA he was awful when they played him at pg his rookie year. He had never really played in a system and took time adjusting. LBJ is far far far more talented than Lance but he has the same problem in a way that LBJ had(and still has in crunch time and other parts of the game when LBJ tries to play hero ball)


But if Lance cant learn that every pass doesn't have to be an assist he will never make it in the league. Lance last year always tried to make the hero pass instead of the right basketball play.

Lance to me is a long term project that may develop those skill may not but with the talent he has just like a Monta Ellis the gamble will be worth it if he pans out. It isnt very likely he pans out but if he is willing to be coached you use your roster spot on him and let him grow. Because quite frankly you arent giving up very much keeping him to see if he can blossom.



Lance reminds me of Andre Drummond who is one of the top ranked HS players in the nation right now. They both were never coached properly IMO and that is a huge problem if you want to be a winner in the NBA but Lance is still 20 he has time to be coached. Larry should really teach him the game and show him 80s Celtics games that is basketball in the best form.

pacergod2
08-15-2011, 05:33 PM
Excellent points sookie and p4e.

I think Lance has great vision. It is just applying as you guys are saying. I LOVE the Dennis Johnson comparison. DJ was an outstanding player. DJ was super talented when he came into the league playing for the Sonics and then Phoenix. When he went to Boston he fit in with an established team and took on the team mentality that really made his career. His scoring went down and his assists jumped way up in Boston.

I would love to see Lance have half the career, but similar development and effectiveness would be terrific.

mildlysane
08-15-2011, 06:45 PM
I wonder if Bird makes the same comparison Between Lance and DJ. I believe Bird has said that DJ was the best player he ever played with and he is really high on Lance.

docpaul
08-16-2011, 12:53 PM
I would love to see Lance have half the career, but similar development and effectiveness would be terrific.

Grin, I'd take 1/4 the career of DJ, given that he's probably one of the best players in NBA history. :) I think the comparison in terms of frame, skill set, etc (with exception of shooting it seems) are valid however.

BlueNGold
08-19-2011, 10:37 PM
Look, I watched the Celtics in the 80's with Bird, McHale, Parrish, DJ, Ainge, etc. DJ was a very good (and clutch) player who made the Celtics better...definitely moved them up a notch from Tiny Archibald at the helm....but Kevin McHale was the better player.

BlueNGold
08-19-2011, 10:43 PM
Grin, I'd take 1/4 the career of DJ, given that he's probably one of the best players in NBA history. :) I think the comparison in terms of frame, skill set, etc (with exception of shooting it seems) are valid however.

Dennis Johnson? One of the best players in NBA history? I could name 5 current PG's better than Dennis Johnson...let alone the fact Magic, Zeke, Oscar, Stockton, Kidd, and numerous others were clearly better.

In fact, KEVIN Johnson is the one getting accolades: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7776352


I think the lockout is cutting the oxygen off too...

pacer4ever
08-20-2011, 02:31 AM
Look, I watched the Celtics in the 80's with Bird, McHale, Parrish, DJ, Ainge, etc. DJ was a very good (and clutch) player who made the Celtics better...definitely moved them up a notch from Tiny Archibald at the helm....but Kevin McHale was the better player.

Obviously Kevin was one of the best post players of his time and all time. DJ was the 3rd or 4th best player on the Celtics teams IMO. Just curious who said DJ was better than McHale?

mildlysane
08-20-2011, 09:32 AM
Obviously Kevin was one of the best post players of his time and all time. DJ was the 3rd or 4th best player on the Celtics teams IMO. Just curious who said DJ was better than McHale?
Larry Bird.....I like McHale as well.

edit: Upon further research, Bird actually said DJ was the best teammate he has ever had. So, there is some wiggle room....

docpaul
08-20-2011, 11:36 AM
Dennis Johnson? One of the best players in NBA history? I could name 5 current PG's better than Dennis Johnson...let alone the fact Magic, Zeke, Oscar, Stockton, Kidd, and numerous others were clearly better.

In fact, KEVIN Johnson is the one getting accolades: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7776352


I think the lockout is cutting the oxygen off too...

Eh, I think he is definitely in the top 50 players of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8sAyIZiPJ0&feature=related

McKeyFan
08-20-2011, 11:49 AM
The problem I see in Lance is that he has never been coached properly. Growing up the offense was always give the ball to Lance and let him iso. Which was fine for him to get noticed and make a name for himself because he is pretty talented. But to be a good team player he needed to learn the game of basketball and learn the correct way to play. I just think he has never had a good coach until college. He probably should of stayed another few years to learn to play in a system. Like you said the 10% of teams that play the game the right and way are normally the teams who compete for a championship.


LBJ had this same problem coming into the NBA he was awful when they played him at pg his rookie year. He had never really played in a system and took time adjusting. LBJ is far far far more talented than Lance but he has the same problem in a way that LBJ had(and still has in crunch time and other parts of the game when LBJ tries to play hero ball)


But if Lance cant learn that every pass doesn't have to be an assist he will never make it in the league. Lance last year always tried to make the hero pass instead of the right basketball play.

Lance to me is a long term project that may develop those skill may not but with the talent he has just like a Monta Ellis the gamble will be worth it if he pans out. It isnt very likely he pans out but if he is willing to be coached you use your roster spot on him and let him grow. Because quite frankly you arent giving up very much keeping him to see if he can blossom.



Lance reminds me of Andre Drummond who is one of the top ranked HS players in the nation right now. They both were never coached properly IMO and that is a huge problem if you want to be a winner in the NBA but Lance is still 20 he has time to be coached. Larry should really teach him the game and show him 80s Celtics games that is basketball in the best form.
This is a good post, but I disagree with the third paragraph.

From my recollection, Lance had no trouble making the pass leading to the assist. T.J Ford, however . . .

Sookie
08-20-2011, 12:59 PM
This is a good post, but I disagree with the third paragraph.

From my recollection, Lance had no trouble making the pass leading to the assist. T.J Ford, however . . .

He didn't.

However, sometimes, that pass isn't the correct pass to make. It's a "forced" pass, and it'll result in a turnover. And someone else has a better angle to make the pass, because..basketball, you know..is more than a two person game. Despite the fact that Lebron seems to have convinced everyone otherwise..:laugh: Lance hasn't shown he understands that aspect of the game.

rel
08-20-2011, 07:31 PM
<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XL4FH32Pxxg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

not sure if this was ever posted, possibly in the Pro-Am thread, but I just now saw it.
A couple NICE highlight passes @ 0:46 and 1:03

imawhat
08-20-2011, 11:34 PM
He didn't.

However, sometimes, that pass isn't the correct pass to make. It's a "forced" pass, and it'll result in a turnover. And someone else has a better angle to make the pass, because..basketball, you know..is more than a two person game. Despite the fact that Lebron seems to have convinced everyone otherwise..:laugh: Lance hasn't shown he understands that aspect of the game.

Not sure where you get that because there were multiple times in each summer league game where he set up the offense for the next pass to be made.

dohman
08-21-2011, 09:00 AM
<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XL4FH32Pxxg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

not sure if this was ever posted, possibly in the Pro-Am thread, but I just now saw it.
A couple NICE highlight passes @ 0:46 and 1:03

Good find. His jumpshot is looking GREAT!

mildlysane
08-21-2011, 10:05 AM
Thanks for the video. His step-back jumper is nice. Pretty good handles as well. Man, I hope he works out the mental side of things, because he looks pretty good on that video (I know that it is a Pro-Am, but you have to admit he looked real good).

McKeyFan
08-21-2011, 02:24 PM
Not sure where you get that because there were multiple times in each summer league game where he set up the offense for the next pass to be made.
Actually, during his few appearances last season, I felt he overdid the first, non-flashy pass that leads to the assist. I think he needed to be more "selfish" and make things happen, which he is so good at.

So I completely disagree with the notion that he won't make the unselfish pass.

pacer4ever
08-21-2011, 03:33 PM
Actually, during his few appearances last season, I felt he overdid the first, non-flashy pass that leads to the assist. I think he needed to be more "selfish" and make things happen, which he is so good at.

So I completely disagree with the notion that he won't make the unselfish pass.


It isnt about being selfish or non selfish. There are times Lance doesn't make the correct basketball play and that is a problem. LBJ still has this same problem and many good players have this issue they like to make the hero pass instead of the simple pass. It should get better in time if he is listening to coaching but last season he didn't show he can pass and the go and play off the ball. Lance has no clue how to play without the ball and if he doesn't learn to play without the ball there will be issues. Again this is the same issue LBJ had with the Heat last year he has never played off the ball and Lance hasnt either. To me that goes back to bad coaching Eric Gordon could dominate in grade school and HS. But his dad made him learn to play without the ball and to make the smart basketball play. I just think Lance hasn't had proper coaching and has never been taught how to play without the ball which is a skill you need in the NBA. Thats my biggest gripe with Lance if he doesn't have the ball he just stands there doing nothing. He really needs to improve in that area and his conditioning and that will make him a lot better.

BlueNGold
08-21-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm not a Lance fan, but I would cut him slack here. He barely sniffed the court and had off court issues all year....and he was a rookie. I don't think we know what we have in Lance Stephenson.

The fact he doesn't make the right basketball play in many instances probably has more to do with him being a rookie with very little experience than any true deficit in his game...even if it does make logical sense that he has not been taught to play off the ball. Honestly, I suspect most >50% of the truly great players in the league were never taught that either because they almost always had the ball too.

imawhat
08-21-2011, 09:43 PM
Now I'm confused because Lance is pretty good off the ball too. He's probably top three at reading and making cuts behind Dunleavy and McRoberts. Collison is possibly better too.

He has a lot of flaws in his game that are worth criticizing so I don't understand why his strengths are catching most of the heat. He obviously needs some coaching but I would focus on passing and moving without the ball last.

I don't see the DJ comparison though I wouldn't mind if he had that type of impact. He's a far better passer though. I think he reminds Larry of someone (hence the extra love) but it ain't DJ.

vnzla81
08-21-2011, 11:34 PM
He didn't.

However, sometimes, that pass isn't the correct pass to make. It's a "forced" pass, and it'll result in a turnover. And someone else has a better angle to make the pass, because..basketball, you know..is more than a two person game. Despite the fact that Lebron seems to have convinced everyone otherwise..:laugh: Lance hasn't shown he understands that aspect of the game.

Sometimes the pass isn't the correct pass but at least he tries to pass the ball unlike Price and Collison.

Brad8888
08-22-2011, 11:35 AM
Dribble penetration and an ability to find others in traffic, coupled with midrange jumpers. A knack for flashy passing. Looked very good even with it being the Pro-Am.

In all likelihood, it looked just like Lance looks when he has it going. For me, it still looks like he is a scoring 2 who can make flashy passes, and he will probably be a good 2 somewhere. The question is, for me at least, if defense is a priority in "smashmouth" basketball, where will his time come from? Paul George, George Hill, Brandon Rush (still don't think he will get traded) seem to have the position wrapped up.

Point guard? Collison, Hill, Lance as the third point guard for 5-10 minutes per game with enough other interior defenders to cover for him?

Anthem
08-22-2011, 06:39 PM
Paul George, George Hill, Brandon Rush (still don't think he will get traded) seem to have the position wrapped up.

Point guard? Collison, Hill, Lance as the third point guard for 5-10 minutes per game with enough other interior defenders to cover for him?
While neither is a classic floor general, I'd be interested in seeing if a Stephenson/Hill backcourt has enough playmaking to work.

righteouscool
08-22-2011, 06:42 PM
While neither is a classic floor general, I'd be interested in seeing if Stephenson/Hill has enough playmaking to work.

I think Larry's opinion on Lance had a great deal to do with George Hill coming here. Hill and Lance are perfect together defensively and offensively.

McKeyFan
08-22-2011, 08:11 PM
Actually, Bird made an offhand comment in a presser right after getting Hill to the effect of "Lance will probably be the one most hurt" in terms of losing playing time.

I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before.

pacer4ever
08-22-2011, 08:16 PM
Actually, Bird made an offhand comment in a presser right after getting Hill to the effect of "Lance will probably be the one most hurt" in terms of losing playing time.

I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before.

No he didnt Larry said it wouldn't affect Lances or PG24s PT on the draft night presser

Sookie
08-22-2011, 10:09 PM
No he didnt Larry said it wouldn't affect Lances or PG24s PT on the draft night presser

Pretty hard to effect his playing time when he wasn't getting any.

Collison, Hill, and PG are in the guard rotations, and I think Rush, Price, Dahntay and Lance fight for the last spot (maybe 2 spots) That's just my guess. Unless someone is moved.

pacer4ever
08-23-2011, 02:44 AM
Pretty hard to effect his playing time when he wasn't getting any.

Collison, Hill, and PG are in the guard rotations, and I think Rush, Price, Dahntay and Lance fight for the last spot (maybe 2 spots) That's just my guess. Unless someone is moved.

Larry made it sound like Lance will get 15-20 mins next year in the presser(if he was coach) Obviously it is up to Vogel I bet Lance gets 10-20 if he plays poor. And more if he plays good. Lance needs minutes but he is still developing so if he doesn't get them thats not a big deal. Practice and working with the coaching staff to develop a better game. Like improving his off the ball skills and defense and just playing more team oriented. I think Lance IMO will get as many minutes as he earns that could be 0 or it could be 30.

billbradley
08-23-2011, 09:33 AM
http://www.fox59.com/sports/wxin-pacers-draft-recap-from-conseco-fieldhouse-20110623,0,3713718.story

"By getting George (Georege Hill) I don't think this hurts Lance at all." Larry Bird

Goes on to say Paul George, George Hill and Lance can play multiple positions. No mention of Rush, Price or Jones. Sounds like the minutes are Lance's to lose.

pacergod2
08-23-2011, 10:00 AM
I think when looking at this, it can't be over the course of one year. Rush, Hill, Price, and Posey are all expiring. Same with Hibbert, but this is a guard conversation.

Posey won't be back and he is the only unrestricted free agent. The others are all restricted. Hill will probably be brought back. We wouldn't have traded for him if that wasn't our plan. Price, I am guessing won't, but it has more to do with him being able to leave to be a primary backup somewhere. Rush, it is anybody's guess. I could see him re-signing if it is for a relatively cheap contract. I bet someone will be willing to pay him more than what we want to, though. I doubt Dahntay opts out, which is the other free agent possibility we have. Either way, I don't see him being a Pacer after his deal is up.

I think we have to look beyond this upcoming year, especially since there is talk of not having one.

PG - Collison/Stephenson --- probably not Price
SG - George/Hill --- probably not Rush
SF - Granger/DJones

This would be a legitimate rotation of guards. I think the way you have to look at this is that Collison and George will probably get the bulk of their minutes together since they seem more complimentary, and I would say the same thing about Stephenson and Hill. I think when the game is on the line late, it will be a tough adjustment period for whichever guards will end up playing. If winning, I could see Hill and George in the game. If losing, I could see Collison and Stephenson playing together. I think we have complimentary talent in our backcourt though. We will obviously need some deep bench players, but we can use the draft and minimum contract guys to fill those spots.

I think our roster will allow us to draft for upside in 2012. With the 2012 draft, we will be looking for either a young big to develop or someone that we can trade if we are able to sign a solid free agent this year. With a solid roster already filled, those upside guys are easier to take a chance on. I also think that we will look to move our 2012 draft pick, because that first will be worth a lot more on the trade market. If we get a big like Nene or West, we will probably look to trade a couple of pieces to get a better player. I would say that we could upgrade the PG, SG, or C position pretty easily with the talent we have. At the same time, we are set up well with the right young talent that can develop. By the trade deadline of the 2012-13 season, we will know who fits what we need and who doesn't. Tyler and Darren are both restricted that year, so it is possible that we stand pat and only resign our own. Who knows, but IMO the guard picture is pretty clear as to the four players who will get the most playing time over the next two years.

I'm praying Rush comes out playing better. I think he is the guy that would make the biggest difference for our roster of the "others". Hill and Rush would be terrific together defensively and an efficient pair offensively. I think we are in for a great year. I just want those consistent rotations to come back, regardless of who is playing.

Sorry so long.

McKeyFan
08-23-2011, 03:57 PM
http://www.fox59.com/sports/wxin-pacers-draft-recap-from-conseco-fieldhouse-20110623,0,3713718.story

"By getting George (Georege Hill) I don't think this hurts Lance at all." Larry Bird

Goes on to say Paul George, George Hill and Lance can play multiple positions. No mention of Rush, Price or Jones. Sounds like the minutes are Lance's to lose.
Maybe so. I don't mind being corrected.

But I think it was an offhand comment made during an interview. Bird doesn't do a whole bunch of those, so maybe someone can dig it up (if it indeed exists).

pacer4ever
09-04-2011, 10:47 AM
He was at the miracle mile parade yesterday my sister told me he was the only pacers player there.

Lou Bega
09-04-2011, 11:29 AM
Lance will be starting over DC if he has a good mini camp. Thing is Pacers might not have a mini camp this year (lock out). Lance is what this team has needed for years a player that can penetrate off the dribble and create his own shot. He has to improve his decison making first (on the court).

daschysta
09-05-2011, 12:03 AM
You can't seriously think vogel demotes collision based off a mini camp for a player vogel benched last year... no matter how good said mini camp was.. can you?

90'sNBARocked
09-07-2011, 11:35 AM
You can't seriously think vogel demotes collision based off a mini camp for a player vogel benched last year... no matter how good said mini camp was.. can you?

I know I can't

and I have a self described "man crush" on Lance

I love this year the options we will have with Hill, Lance, DC etc.

Anyone think AJ will be back?

Sookie
09-08-2011, 04:17 PM
I know I can't

and I have a self described "man crush" on Lance

I love this year the options we will have with Hill, Lance, DC etc.

Anyone think AJ will be back?

He's on the team, (although I think they have until the start of the season to cut him before his contract is guaranteed)

Although personally, I hope they trade him for a second round pick or something.

Kemo
09-08-2011, 06:01 PM
You can't seriously think vogel demotes collision based off a mini camp for a player vogel benched last year... no matter how good said mini camp was.. can you?

LOL @ Collision .. I like that ..

90'sNBARocked
09-08-2011, 07:22 PM
He's on the team, (although I think they have until the start of the season to cut him before his contract is guaranteed)

Although personally, I hope they trade him for a second round pick or something.

I think AJ was hurt the most by the aquistion of G Hill, and can understand why you would like him to get a chance elsewhere

I do like AJ as a person and wish him the best

Sookie
09-08-2011, 08:07 PM
I think AJ was hurt the most by the aquistion of G Hill, and can understand why you would like him to get a chance elsewhere

I do like AJ as a person and wish him the best

meh..two of Rush, Dahntay, AJ, or Lance aren't going to get to play. Heck maybe only one of them. Could it be AJ, sure it could. I just hope whoever gets spot in the rotation, earns it. (Not as wary as I was with O'brien..but still..I'd been silly enough to think you actually earn rotation minutes two seasons in a row..:laugh:)

pacer4ever
09-08-2011, 08:26 PM
meh..two of Rush, Dahntay, AJ, or Lance aren't going to get to play. Heck maybe only one of them. Could it be AJ, sure it could. I just hope whoever gets spot in the rotation, earns it. (Not as wary as I was with O'brien..but still..I'd been silly enough to think you actually earn rotation minutes two seasons in a row..:laugh:)

The NBA isn't college and unless you are at every practice you cant judge if AJ deserved to be in the rotation or not. Because in the games he certainly showed he didnt deserve to be in the rotation. I think it was unfair how they did TJ. As bad as TJ is he played better than AJ and AJ got minuets over him. So if anyone should be talking about getting unfair shot it was TJ last season But you have to understand this is the nba and not college some places dont have open competitions and people play based on pay and where they were drafted. That may be unfair but that's the truth college is much more open competition and way less egos involved . But in the NBA you have so many influences that don't happen in college. Take LBJ in Cleveland for example the reason they refused to trade Hickson was because LBJ wanted him to be a Cav. Plus you have GM's who want to see their favorites play and such you have to understand there is a lot more politics in the NBA. Just like why DC didnt have open competition was because he was brought in to be the pg for the future. DC would of probably won the job if they had a "open competition" but he earned the job from his play in NO and by Larry waiting and trying to get that fresh new pg. Is it fair ? Maybe maybe not but that's the NBA so deal with it.

Sookie
09-08-2011, 08:58 PM
The NBA isn't college and unless you are at every practice you cant judge if AJ deserved to be in the rotation or not. Because in the games he certainly showed he didnt deserve to be in the rotation. I think it was unfair how they did TJ. As bad as TJ is he played better than AJ and AJ got minuets over him. So if anyone should be talking about getting unfair shot it was TJ last season But you have to understand this is the nba and not college some places dont have open competitions and people play based on pay and where they were drafted. That may be unfair but that's the truth college is much more open competition and way less egos involved . But in the NBA you have so many influences that don't happen in college. Take LBJ in Cleveland for example the reason they refused to trade Hickson was because LBJ wanted him to be a Cav. Plus you have GM's who want to see their favorites play and such you have to understand there is a lot more politics in the NBA. Just like why DC didnt have open competition was because he was brought in to be the pg for the future. DC would of probably won the job if they had a "open competition" but he earned the job from his play in NO and by Larry waiting and trying to get that fresh new pg. Is it fair ? Maybe maybe not but that's the NBA so deal with it.

How'd that work out for them?

It's stupid, the players who play well in the team structure, and help the team win should play.

I'm not even referring to just Price, btw. Not going to argue about anything else. I know it's been fun to make like Price was the only player who struggled for a stretch last season and I feel like you just try an irritate me. :P But I will say, during his rookie year, Obrien said Price consistently outplayed Watson and Ford in practice. And last season, Mike Wells continuously said that (during Vogel's time) that the second team quite often beat the first time in practice. Price and Foster were the only two players who were consistently on the second team during Vogel's coaching tenure.

And I do think Frank will be better than O'brien with letting the people who should play, play.

However, that point is just silly. Other than Paul George, (MAYBE George Hill) there's no reason, other than basketball, for one guard to get more minutes than another, so why not let them compete?

90'sNBARocked
09-08-2011, 09:27 PM
meh..two of Rush, Dahntay, AJ, or Lance aren't going to get to play. Heck maybe only one of them. Could it be AJ, sure it could. I just hope whoever gets spot in the rotation, earns it. (Not as wary as I was with O'brien..but still..I'd been silly enough to think you actually earn rotation minutes two seasons in a row..:laugh:)

I will say this Sook, I would cut Rush and keep AJ if it was up to me

at least AJ is fearlous, a hard worker, and has a "I need to keep improving mentality"

Rush is someone I believe loves the NBA lifestyle, not the NBA

90'sNBARocked
09-08-2011, 09:28 PM
meh..two of Rush, Dahntay, AJ, or Lance aren't going to get to play. Heck maybe only one of them. Could it be AJ, sure it could. I just hope whoever gets spot in the rotation, earns it. (Not as wary as I was with O'brien..but still..I'd been silly enough to think you actually earn rotation minutes two seasons in a row..:laugh:)

also I think Vogel loves AJ and DJ

I mean, its a Jersey thing :)

seriously he relates to the east coast grind mentality

pacer4ever
09-08-2011, 09:31 PM
I will say this Sook, I would cut Rush and keep AJ if it was up to me

at least AJ is fearlous, a hard worker, and has a "I need to keep improving mentality"

Rush is someone I believe loves the NBA lifestyle, not the NBA

:bs:

B Rush is the perfect NBA role player so underrated doesnt need plays called for him. Just plays hard defense and takes open shots.

and AJ needs to keep improving mentality wft? you dont know these guys you dont know who is doing what and who wants it more. this is just :bs: IMO

pacer4ever
09-08-2011, 09:32 PM
How'd that work out for them?

It's stupid, the players who play well in the team structure, and help the team win should play.

I'm not even referring to just Price, btw. Not going to argue about anything else. I know it's been fun to make like Price was the only player who struggled for a stretch last season and I feel like you just try an irritate me. :P But I will say, during his rookie year, Obrien said Price consistently outplayed Watson and Ford in practice. And last season, Mike Wells continuously said that (during Vogel's time) that the second team quite often beat the first time in practice. Price and Foster were the only two players who were consistently on the second team during Vogel's coaching tenure.




And I do think Frank will be better than O'brien with letting the people who should play, play.

However, that point is just silly. Other than Paul George, (MAYBE George Hill) there's no reason, other than basketball, for one guard to get more minutes than another, so why not let them compete?



I didnt say it was fair but thats the NBA. We talking about practice?TJ out played AJ last year IN THE GAME and aj played over him so i dont want to here unfair its the NBA not college.

Trophy
09-08-2011, 10:10 PM
:bs:

B Rush is the perfect NBA role player so underrated doesnt need plays called for him. Just plays hard defense and takes open shots.

and AJ needs to keep improving mentality wft? you dont know these guys you dont know who is doing what and who wants it more. this is just :bs: IMO

I agree. BRush is a damn good guy to have coming off the bench. He's someone I would like to have moving forward.

I think too much was expected from him and he really isn't anything more than a solid defensive guy who comes off your bench and also make open shots. I prefer Brandon over Dahntay. Both guys play nice D, but Dahntay feels like he needs to do too much on the offensive end and that's the opposite of why we brought him here.

With Hill and Lance going to get minutes at the guard spots, that might move Brandon to SF and backup Danny.

Strummer
09-09-2011, 01:17 AM
and AJ needs to keep improving mentality wft? you dont know these guys you dont know who is doing what and who wants it more. this is just :bs: IMO

You misread or misunderstood his post. He actually complimented AJ on wanting to improve.

Sookie
09-09-2011, 03:47 AM
I didnt say it was fair but thats the NBA. We talking about practice?TJ out played AJ last year IN THE GAME and aj played over him so i dont want to here unfair its the NBA not college.

1. No he didn't. I don't even like statistics, but AJ was arguably better statistically in less time. At the very worst, it was equal in less time... then add in, that in past two seasons the Pacers win a significantly more amount of games when AJ played then when he didn't. And it's not hard to see why he played.

2. I'd say TJ, in his tenure here, certainly had a thing or two to complain about anyway. But he didn't do what he was asked to do (which AJ always did) and he's not part of the "future." So...as I mentioned above, that is a reason to play one guy over another.

In fact, if, for example, the Pacers are dead certain that Lance is most definitely going to be a part of the Pacers future, and AJ isn't, then they should play Lance so long as it doesn't cause any issues. For a variety of reasons, I don't think they do. Because you can't know for sure which of the young guys are going to work out, so why not let the kids compete. And I also don't think you keep Price during the year where you really don't know what you were going to get from him, playing wise. And get rid of him the year where he really should be building off of his rookie season.

But if that's the route they want to go, then instead of burying AJ on the bench, I'd hope they'd just cut him or trade for a draft pick, so he can join another team. There are plenty of NBA teams where he could go to and be the primary backup.

3. I agree with you on Rush. He's a good 7th/8th man on a championship level team. The problem with him, is people watch him, see a lot of talent, and then he gets passive, and people get annoyed. I think he's valuable for what he is. But I understand the frustration.

I actually have a little bit of concern in that area for PG. PG has the drive and talent (I think) but I also see some passiveness too him. I hope that's just PG "knowing his place" as a rookie, because he's got far too much talent to waste like that.

90s, yea, I think Vogel likes AJ (I actually think O'brien did too..ironically)..and I know Vogel loves Dahntay. In fact, if it's between Lance, AJ, Dahntay, and Rush for the final two spots in the rotation..I think Dahntay gets one of them. And I actually think, with a point guard who can control him (Billups) Dahntay would be more valuable than Rush. But we don't have a point guard that can control him.

pacer4ever
09-09-2011, 05:00 AM
You misread or misunderstood his post. He actually complimented AJ on wanting to improve.

I understood what he said i just didnt agree with it. Every good player in the NBA has that mentality

pacer4ever
09-09-2011, 05:21 AM
1. No he didn't. I don't even like statistics, but AJ was arguably better statistically in less time. At the very worst, it was equal in less time... then add in, that in past two seasons the Pacers win a significantly more amount of games when AJ played then when he didn't. And it's not hard to see why he played.

2. I'd say TJ, in his tenure here, certainly had a thing or two to complain about anyway. But he didn't do what he was asked to do (which AJ always did) and he's not part of the "future." So...as I mentioned above, that is a reason to play one guy over another.

In fact, if, for example, the Pacers are dead certain that Lance is most definitely going to be a part of the Pacers future, and AJ isn't, then they should play Lance so long as it doesn't cause any issues. For a variety of reasons, I don't think they do. Because you can't know for sure which of the young guys are going to work out, so why not let the kids compete. And I also don't think you keep Price during the year where you really don't know what you were going to get from him, playing wise. And get rid of him the year where he really should be building off of his rookie season.

But if that's the route they want to go, then instead of burying AJ on the bench, I'd hope they'd just cut him or trade for a draft pick, so he can join another team. There are plenty of NBA teams where he could go to and be the primary backup.

3. I agree with you on Rush. He's a good 7th/8th man on a championship level team. The problem with him, is people watch him, see a lot of talent, and then he gets passive, and people get annoyed. I think he's valuable for what he is. But I understand the frustration.

I actually have a little bit of concern in that area for PG. PG has the drive and talent (I think) but I also see some passiveness too him. I hope that's just PG "knowing his place" as a rookie, because he's got far too much talent to waste like that.

90s, yea, I think Vogel likes AJ (I actually think O'brien did too..ironically)..and I know Vogel loves Dahntay. In fact, if it's between Lance, AJ, Dahntay, and Rush for the final two spots in the rotation..I think Dahntay gets one of them. And I actually think, with a point guard who can control him (Billups) Dahntay would be more valuable than Rush. But we don't have a point guard that can control him.

I wanted AJ playing over TJ last year let me just get that straight. TJ I dislike the way he plays the position. But thats my point it seemed like you feel AJ got screwed which i guess you could say that i didnt see it that way. I felt that we were trying to get value for TJ and thats why he played so much earlier. But once we figured out he was untradeable we benched him. Thats why i dont understand why you get why others play over AJ sometimes. In the NBA it is kind of like the NFL Jamrcus Russel played in Oakland because he was drafted so high and was considered the future. It wasn't because he was better than everyone. Thats how it was with DC I just dont get why you don't understand that. Because DC has higher poential to be a better pg in the future. He is better than AJ now IMO but even if AJ outplayed him in pratcie it would be tough to take his spot because DC is considered the up and coming pg. With Earl Watson and others I didnt get him playing that was "jim being jim". I will give AJ a clean slate next year (if he is here). But if he keeps chucking 3s and plays like he did this year I am done with him. But his knee did bother him but I question his ability to play at a high level in this league if he doesnt learn to play within him self like Eric Snow even Earl Watson and many other good game manager pgs.


On PG i think it was due to him being the 5th option most of the time. Vogel needs to some times use him like they do Danny gradually giving him a bigger role. But last year his role on offense was stand in the corner. I hope we give him a shot to be a scorer but it will take time but the kid I saw at Fresno was a natural born scorer. The kid on the Pacers was a shell of himself. Paul wasnt know as passive in college he was a scorer. Ironically B Rush has always been considered timid that was his knock in college. But moving back to Paul the kid can score I hope he has been working on his post game there are so many ways to get him involved in the offense Vogel should have no problems if he plans on increasing his role which seems like he will. His shot is better than he showed last year he lefted his jumper at Fresno if he finds it he should be a 10-16ppg scorer next year easy.


On to Lance the reasons you stated up there is the reason Lance will play 10-25mpg next year(depending on how he plays the team will make minutes for him). Lance is obviously considered part of the future Larry has made that clear and that is the reason he will be in the rotation next year.

90'sNBARocked
09-09-2011, 11:32 AM
:bs:

B Rush is the perfect NBA role player so underrated doesnt need plays called for him. Just plays hard defense and takes open shots.

and AJ needs to keep improving mentality wft? you dont know these guys you dont know who is doing what and who wants it more. this is just :bs: IMO

Of course I dont know them personally, but I know perception

My perception is B Rush is content making a nice living and enjoying the "perks" of the NBA lifestyle

I perceive AJ to have more of a desire to improve and be the best he can

again JMHO

90'sNBARocked
09-09-2011, 11:43 AM
I understood what he said i just didnt agree with it. Every good player in the NBA has that mentality

Disagree bro

Some get by on pure God given talent (Derrick Coleman, Rod Strickland) without putting in the hard work to be the best

Look at all the flameouts in the NBA , those like AJ Price have to work so much harde just to make a roster because they dont posess that God given talent like a LeBron, thats what I see in AJ

Rush to me, has been handed things a lot easier in his career and it reflects itself in his approach to the game

Hicks
09-09-2011, 12:56 PM
Yeah, there are definitely some NBA players who work harder than others. And it's not black/white, you could work very hard but you still might not working as hard as Kobe Bryant does (or I believe Tyler Hansbrough has been documented as doing, at least when he was at NC). They're a 10, and you might be a 9 when it comes to how hard you work.

But there are some who seem to slide to a 5 or lower because they're so talented and they just don't have the education or the mindset to allow them to flip that switch and put forth a true effort.

90'sNBARocked
09-09-2011, 01:28 PM
Yeah, there are definitely some NBA players who work harder than others. And it's not black/white, you could work very hard but you still might not working as hard as Kobe Bryant does (or I believe Tyler Hansbrough has been documented as doing, at least when he was at NC). They're a 10, and you might be a 9 when it comes to how hard you work.

But there are some who seem to slide to a 5 or lower because they're so talented and they just don't have the education or the mindset to allow them to flip that switch and put forth a true effort.

Yep

I have heard form several sources that Al Jefferson has a horrible work ethic, yet he averages roughly 18 and 10

Imagine if you combined his God given talent with a work ethic of Kobe, Reggie or simmilar

Speed
09-09-2011, 02:11 PM
I think you see alot of guys sliding on talent, usually you can pretty easily tell, they are poor defensively and in a losing situation.

pacergod2
09-09-2011, 02:36 PM
It's why Zach Randolph is playing the best basketball of his career. Randolph has matured a lot and the one area that maturity typically carries over to is your work ethic. A lot of young arrogant kids come into the league thinking they can just get by.

I did that in college. I never learned how to study until I was in my second to last semester of college. Never did it because I never had to. Therefore, how would I know how to study?

Same goes for these kids. They've always been allowed to slide by unless they went to a college program where the coach demands that for themselves and most of the time the kids barely listen anyway. The more older veterans that garner the younger guys' respect, the more likely they are to buy into off-season workouts and spending more time in the weight room, improving their bodies. I hope our young guys are doing those things. I love seeing BRush and PGeorge at Impact, especially with a veteran in Dahntay there.

Sookie
09-09-2011, 07:18 PM
Of course I dont know them personally, but I know perception

My perception is B Rush is content making a nice living and enjoying the "perks" of the NBA lifestyle

I perceive AJ to have more of a desire to improve and be the best he can

again JMHO

AJ's work ethic is pretty obvious. You don't almost die and literally have to re-learn how to walk, and then turn around become an all American two years later..only then to tear your ACL, to lead your team to a final four the very next year. To then again break your knee-cap, and rehab so hard you are capable of playing NBA basketball 4 months later, without a big work ethic. It's just not possible.

B Rush though, I don't know if it's his work ethic, to be honest. Personally, I think people actually overrate his offensive game, because of what he should do. Because essentially, he isn't a good ball handler, and struggles when the lane isn't wide open to take the ball to the basket. Odds are he won't get that.

But then again, he could do things like improving his short game, learning how to move without the ball better, the "shot fake, take a dribble in and shoot" move.

I've talked about the mental effects of (knee in particular) injuries before, and I honestly think it's a possible reason for BRush's reluctance. (I don't know how he played before, but the way he plays certainly reminds me of a guy whose a little timid to take some contact)..sometimes the mental effect just never goes away. But even with that, as I pointed out..there are plenty of things BRush could do to improve. I just think people have been pointing him in the wrong directions (Work on his driving and his ball handling instead of moving without the ball and mid-range game..)

anyway, pacer4ever, I get what you are saying, but as I said originally, my point about rotations wasn't just about AJ. Posey over Hans/Josh etc...there were a lot of them. Not so much with Vogel. But enough to make me stay cynical. Although, I firmly believe with young guys, we should be letting them compete. There's more to basketball than potential..so unless "this young guy most definitely won't be part of our future" (I'd say Brandon is probably the most definite of the younger guys) "so give this guy, who we know will be, all his minutes" (Paul george) My point was though..you don't know, for the most part, which young guys will and which young guys won't..so play the ones that are helping the team win.

pacer4ever
09-09-2011, 07:29 PM
Disagree bro

Some get by on pure God given talent (Derrick Coleman, Rod Strickland) without putting in the hard work to be the best

Look at all the flameouts in the NBA , those like AJ Price have to work so much harde just to make a roster because they dont posess that God given talent like a LeBron, thats what I see in AJ

Rush to me, has been handed things a lot easier in his career and it reflects itself in his approach to the game

Derrick Coleman I dont consider a good player. I wrote an article on him. He is one of the only guys in history to average 16 and 10 and make his team worse. His team was .650 and a playoff team without him and a sub .400 team with him The guy played 0 defense was slow and lazy kind of like Zbo in NY. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but almost every player in the NBA works hard. Especially players who dont have all the physical gifts. I just dont know how you can say Brush doesn't work at his craft. Just from perception that because he smokes weed or what not that he doesn't work hard. Some players have limitations and i dont know what you expect from Brandon he is a Bruce Bowen Shane Battier type player. He is never gonna be a 15-20ppg scorer that just isnt his game. He has never been a big time scorer I dont get why people expect him too now. Like sookie said his handles aren't that great but he plays within himself and knows his limitations which some players in the league dont. (like Dantay Jones or JR Smith) He is very efficient player which is great for the team and for team chemistry. Brandon is just a smart defensive minded basketball player something every team needs

boink
09-09-2011, 08:34 PM
His assault case

Anybody know what the result was?

I know his court hearing was moved February 25th, 2011 but since then I have heard nothing.

Personally I home the guy heads overseas for some seasoning during the lockout. A tough no nonsense team team in Turkey or Eastern Europe could help him mature and embrace the concept of team basketball.

Worst case scenario - He ends up in China where foreign players often post video game like stat lines. Plus things could get ugly there if he has another knucklehead episode - his name could go from "born ready" to "rotting in prison factory".

McKeyFan
09-09-2011, 09:51 PM
Not so sure about the "smart" part.

pacer4ever
09-09-2011, 11:02 PM
His assault case

Anybody know what the result was?

I know his court hearing was moved February 25th, 2011 but since then I have heard nothing.

Personally I home the guy heads overseas for some seasoning during the lockout. A tough no nonsense team team in Turkey or Eastern Europe could help him mature and embrace the concept of team basketball.

Worst case scenario - He ends up in China where foreign players often post video game like stat lines. Plus things could get ugly there if he has another knucklehead episode - his name could go from "born ready" to "rotting in prison factory".
they dropped the charges. I think he wants to go to Italy and play during the lockout. But i doubt he goes unless he knows the season will be lost. He is in indy working out for now.

pacer4ever
09-10-2011, 05:05 AM
sook you are getting a Lance type player this year at UCONN in Andre Drummond he is one of my favorite prospects. He has the character issues like Lance did/ does. But the kid has the skills to be a force is the paint. I think in a few years he could be one of the best centers in the NBA if he keeps his head on straight. One of the best HS big men in some time and should be insane at UCONN. I would would love to see him in BnG one day but thats not likely to happen. Next years draft is crazy deep probably the deepest since the 03 draft. Drummond is the best C prospect since I guess Cousins but he is a Dwight and Oden level prospect IMO but he is still raw like Dwight was as a youngster.

Sookie
09-10-2011, 01:26 PM
sook you are getting a Lance type player this year at UCONN in Andre Drummond he is one of my favorite prospects. He has the character issues like Lance did/ does. But the kid has the skills to be a force is the paint. I think in a few years he could be one of the best centers in the NBA if he keeps his head on straight. One of the best HS big men in some time and should be insane at UCONN. I would would love to see him in BnG one day but thats not likely to happen. Next years draft is crazy deep probably the deepest since the 03 draft. Drummond is the best C prospect since I guess Cousins but he is a Dwight and Oden level prospect IMO but he is still raw like Dwight was as a youngster.

yea, I know..

Not sure what to think of him. I guess we'll see. Lance's game itself bothers me. But I feel like, for guys like Lance and Drummond, college is the place they need to be. Good coaches can help them on and off the court. (Like seriously, I can't even blame Lance completely for lacking certain fundamentals. That's just a ridiculous amount of coaching failure.) I wish though, Drummond had Kemba there to help him too.

pacer4ever
09-10-2011, 01:43 PM
yea, I know..

Not sure what to think of him. I guess we'll see. Lance's game itself bothers me. But I feel like, for guys like Lance and Drummond, college is the place they need to be. Good coaches can help them on and off the court. (Like seriously, I can't even blame Lance completely for lacking certain fundamentals. That's just a ridiculous amount of coaching failure.) I wish though, Drummond had Kemba there to help him too.

Ya Lances problems started in middle school he needed a coach who knew how to coach talent and stress fundamentals not playing AAU those coaches are basically agents and dont care if the player has good fundamentals. Many players coming up are having these same issues they have poor fundamentals. I am kind of worried for the future of the game if this trend keeps up. My buddy who works with a few NBA players James Posey being one. Said these kids at high level AAU camps act like they are already in the NBA. He says they act entitled and stop working hard. Posey is actually coaching AAU right now and my buddy said Posey cant believe the way those kids act.


Drummond reminds me so much of Cousins he will likely need time to mature like Cousins does. But the kid has so much talent his size strength and moblity combo is so rare and i dont know how he can fail lol.(But I said the same thing about Lance his senior year in HS. And he didnt have anywhere near a freshman season at Cincinnati that i though he would. He certainly should of stayed in college a few more years.)