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90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 01:33 PM
With the league in official lockout mode, I figure we could all use a break from the hard-cap vs. the flex-cap debate, and the other discussions centered on potential profit-sharing and heavily steeped in legalese.

So the plan is this: over the next few months, I'll go back over previous drafts and "re-draft" all the players. (Back in June, I started with the 2001 draft – click here for the link) Of course, I have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, based on all that we now know everyone that came into the league years ago.

Here is how we'll approach this project: Every pick will be made pretending each organization is a first year expansion franchise and has no other players on its roster, so there is no need to factor roster needs as of June 2005 into any discussion. Selections will be made simply based on pure production – i.e. best player available.

I'll list each new pick, and then post the player that was actually selected in that original draft slot.

As a refresher, here is a link to the actual 2005 NBA draft.

Without further adieu, let's start selecting:


#1 – With the first overall pick in the 2005 Re-Draft, the Milwaukee Bucks select: Chris Paul
(Actual 2005 pick: Andrew Bogut)
Right out of the gate, it was pretty clear that CP3 would become an elite NBA superstar. During the 2005-2006 season, he led all rookies in points, assists, and steals, en route to winning Rookie of the Year award. By 2007, he had already established himself as arguably one the best point guards on the planet, and one of the league's most valuable players – finishing a close second to Kobe for 2008 NBA MVP. Paul has already set numerous NBA records during his brief career; he is the only player to lead the league in assists and steals in consecutive seasons. He also holds the all-time record for consecutive games with a steal (108). For his career, CP3 is averaging 9.9 assists per game – that is third all-time, behind Magic Johnson (11.2) and John Stockton (10.5). 'Nuff said.

#2 – The Atlanta Hawks select: Deron Williams
(Actual 2005 pick: Marvin Williams)
The CP3 vs. D-Will debate is very much alive and well. Personally, I'd go with Paul, but there are Williams supporters out there that would contest Deron is the better all-around, more durable player, and that he will go on to have the better career. Looking strictly at the numbers, it is tough argue against CP3, especially when you look at his playoff production. (Here is an interesting look at their head-to-head matchups, courtesy of basketball-reference: http://bit.ly/ohF7Dl). Nonetheless, whether you want to rank him #1 or #2, Williams is obviously a world-class PG. Over the last three seasons, D-Will has recorded more 20-point, 10-assist games (63) than another other player in the NBA (Paul is second with 60).

#3 – The Utah Jazz select: Danny Granger
(Actual 2005 pick: Deron Williams)
Granger slipped all the way to way to #17 on draft night back in 2005, where Donnie Walsh and the Pacers happily snatched him up. Granger has already made an All-Star team, he won the NBA's Most Improved Player Award in 2009, and was selected as a member of Team USA during 2010 FIBA World Championships. However, Granger seemed to take a bit of step back last season in Indiana. After averaging 25.8 and 24.2 ppg respectively over the previous two seasons, Granger saw his scoring average drop to 20.5 during the 2010-2011 campaign. Also, take a look at his FG% over his first six seasons in the NBA, starting with his rookie year up through last season: 46.2%, 45.9%, 44.7%, 42.8%, and 42.5%. That downward trend is disconcerting. It will be interesting if Granger can bounce back next season (whenever that is…)

#4 – The New Orleans Hornets select: Andrew Bynum
(Actual 2005 pick: Chris Paul)
Bynum was viewed as a huge hit-or-miss prospect back in 2005, and honestly, the same may still be said about the burly big man. Blessed with phenomenal size and athleticism, Bynum has the chance to become a truly great center. In a league where talented big men are so few and far between, Bynum's upside is scintillating. However, he has had a tough time staying healthy long enough to prove he is as good as most believe him to be. Nonetheless, if NBA GMs had a chance to get their hands on him, it is unlikely they'd be able to pass on a seven-footer with Bynum's skill set.

#5 – The Charlotte Bobcats select: Andrew Bogut
(Actual 2005 pick: Raymond Felton)
Bogut is another talented center that has dealt with his fair share of injuries. However, when healthy he is legit starting center in the NBA – which means he is worth his weight in gold. Over his last two seasons, despite missing a total of 30 games, Bogut has proven he can score (averaging 17.7 ppg in 2009-2010), rebound (averaging 11.3 rpg since 2009) and block shots – Bogut blocked 2.8 shots per game in '09-'10, and led the entire league in swats last season (2.6 bpg).

#6 – The Portland Trail Blazers select: Monta Ellis
(Actual 2005 pick: Martell Webster)
Six years after they were drafted, Ellis owns the highest career scoring average (19.4 ppg) amongst all players taken in 2005. A little known, undersized guard out a small high school in Mississippi, Ellis lasted to the middle of the second-round before the Warriors selected him – making Monta one of the greatest value picks in NBA draft history. Ellis has some durability issues, and has been a headache at times in Golden State, but the kid's talent is undeniable.


#7 – The Toronto Raptors select: Raymond Felton
(Actual 2005 pick: Charlie Villanueva)
Heading into the start of last season, Felton seemed to be at a bit of a career crossroads. Playing in Charlotte under Larry Brown, Felton's production had experienced a dramatic downturn. But as a free agent, Felton landed in New York, playing for head coach Mike D'Antoni. Felton immediately showed what kind of PG he could be playing in an up-tempo system that perfectly suited his game. In the 54 games he played for the Knicks before being shipped to Denver in the Carmelo Anthony deal, Felton averaged 17.1 ppg, 9.0 assists, and 1.6 three-pointers per contest. Raymond is next going to get a chance to run the show in Portland.

#8 – The New York Knicks select: David Lee
(Actual 2005 pick: Channing Frye)
Yet another late gem – Lee lasted to #30, the last pick of round one back in June of 2005. And if we are looking at pure statistical production, D Lee is right near the top of his class. Lee leads of 2005 draftees in rebounding (9.6 boards per game for his career); while also averaging 13.6 points and shooting a stout 54.6% from the floor. However, Lee has spent the majority of his NBA career playing in "fantasy friendly" systems (NY and GSW). And for all his offensive output, Lee is a below-average defender (and that's putting it nicely).

#9 – The Golden State Warriors select: Channing Frye
(Actual 2005 pick: Ike Diogu)
In just six short seasons, Frye's career has already seen some dramatic peaks and valleys. He exploded onto the scene as a rookie with the Knicks. He was named Rookie of the Month in November of 2005 (along with Chris Paul) – and averaged 15.6 ppg and 7.9 rpg as a starter for the Knicks that first year. However, he was sidelined by a knee injury late that season, and was never able to re-establish himself in New York. On June 28, the night of the 2007 NBA Draft, Frye, along with Knicks guard Steve Francis, was traded to the Portland Trail Blazers in exchange for Zach Randolph, Fred Jones and Dan Dickau. Frye was relegated to bench-warmer status in Portland, before signing with the Suns as an unrestricted free agent. Frye resurrected his career in Phoenix, developing into one of the league's best jump-shooting big men, which earned him a hefty $35 million contract from the Suns.

#10 – The Los Angeles Lakers select: Andray Blatche
(Actual 2005 pick: Andrew Bynum)
Blatche's maturity and commitment to the game can certainly be questioned, but his skill set for a 6-11 player is remarkable. Last season, he averaged 16.8 points, 8.2 rebounds, and 2.3 assists – despite playing less than 34 minutes a night. His upside is undeniable; whether or not he'll ever reach his true ceiling is debatable.

#11 – The Orlando Magic select: Marvin Williams
(Actual 2005 pick: Fran Vαzquez)
Williams is viewed as a bust by many due to the fact that the Hawks took him second overall, ahead of both Chris Paul and Deron Williams. However, Williams is a decent starting NBA small forward. His production won't wow you, but he is reliably consistent. You can usually pencil him in for 10 points and 5 boards, with limited turnovers.

#12 – The Los Angeles Clippers select: Marcin Gortat
(Actual 2005 pick: Yaroslav Korolev)
As one of the final few picks in the 2005 draft (57th overall) very little was expected of Gortat in NBA circles. Yet, he put in work in Orlando and developed into an intriguing player. The issue was the Magic already had their franchise center in Dwight Howard, the league's premier pivot. We only saw quick glimpses of Gortat. That all changed as a result of an in-season blockbuster trade between Orlando and Phoenix. Marcin finally was given a chance to prove he was a legit NBA starting center. He ended up playing 55 games for the Suns last year, averaging 13 ppg (shooting 56.3% from the floor), 9.3 rpg, and 1.3 bpg. The Suns are hoping he is just starting to scratch the surface.

#13 – The Charlotte Bobcats select: Charlie Villanueva
(Actual 2005 pick: Sean May)
After signing a massive free agent contract with the Pistons in July of 2009, it has all been pretty much downhill for Charlie V in MoTown. Last season was the worst of Villanueva's pro career. He averaged career-lows in points, rebounds, and assists. Considering the Pistons still owe him $24.2 million over the next three seasons, they are praying he is able to bounce back in a big way.

#14 – The Minnesota Timberwolves select: Jarrett Jack
(Actual 2005 pick: Rashad McCants)
Jack has bounced around quite a bit, playing for four different organizations during his still young NBA career. In each city, he's found away to carve out a niche for himself and established a reputation as a productive and efficient NBA guard.

#15 – The New Jersey Nets select: Amir Johnson
(Actual 2005 pick: Antoine Wright)

The Raps rolled the dice when re-signing Johnson for a whopping $35 million last summer. Amir's 'per-minute' averages had always been intriguing, but he hadn't yet proved he could sustain those stats given extensive playing time. Last season, he saw 25 minutes a night for the first time in his career and put up respectable numbers (9.6 ppg, 6.4 rpg, and 1.2 bpg). However, Amir was often his own worst enemy, as foul trouble plagued him on a near nightly basis. He is still just 24 years of age, so there is plenty of time for continued development.

#16 – The Toronto Raptors select: Brandon Bass
(Actual 2005 pick: Joey Graham)
Bass is another player who we are still a bit unsure about. After spending his first two pro seasons buried on the Hornets bench, Bass got a chance to play in Dallas, and showed glimpses of impressive talent. That earned him a lucrative contract offer form the Magic once he hit free agency. The 2009-2010 campaign was a disappointment, as he played just 13 minutes per contest. But Bass bounced back last season; putting up over 11 points and grabbing 5.6 rebounds in 26 minutes of action.

#17 – The Indian Pacers select: Louis Williams
(Actual 2005 pick: Danny Granger)
The Sixers took a second-round flier on Williams, an undersized guard setting scoring records in Georgia back in 2005. Sweet Lou has proved to be a solid scorer in the NBA as well, averaging over 13 points per game over the last three seasons in Philly. Williams isn't a true PG, and won't give you much besides points, but he's definitely a solid spark off the bench for Doug Collins in Philadelphia.

#18 – The Boston Celtics select: Ersan Ilyasova
(Actual 2005 pick: Gerald Green)
After playing for the Bucks as a rookie in 2005-2006, Ilyasova left the NBA to play overseas. He didn't return to Milwaukee until 2009, and quickly proved he belonged. Ersan has been a fan favorite and solid rotation player for the Bucks since settling back in the States.

#19 – The Memphis Grizzlies select: Hakim Warrick
(Actual 2005 pick: Hakim Warrick)
Warrick has always had an intriguing skill set, but hasn't quiet been able to put it all together in the NBA. Now he finds himself in Phoenix, where a glut of forwards has relegated him to part-time player.

#20 – The Denver Nuggets select: C. J. Miles
(Actual 2005 pick: Julius Hodge)
Here is Miles scoring average over each of his last 5 NBA seasons: 2.7, 5.0, 9.1, 9.9, 12.8. The consistent, continued improvement is obvious.

#21 – The Phoenix Suns select: Nate Robinson
(Actual 2005 pick: Nate Robinson)
You could argue that Robinson is pound-for-pound the most athletic player in the NBA, maybe in all of professional sports. Not only is he an incredible leaper for a guy his size (the slam dunk trophies on his mantle are proof positive of this), he is also a very good shooter. Unfortunately, he just doesn't get it. All that talent, but he refuses to exert his efforts efficiently. You would think he'd watch a player like J.J. Barea and see how he could positively impact a game. Instead, it often seems he is more interested in sending tweets or being the class clown. Just last month, Robinson got arrested twice in one weekend for public urination.

#22 – The Denver Nuggets select: Ryan Gomes
(Actual 2005 pick: Jarrett Jack)
Gomes has been solid, if not spectacular, since entering the league. His best seasons came with the Timberwolves; he averaged 13.3 ppg in 08-09 and 5.8 rpg the season prior.

#23 – The Sacramento Kings select: Jason Maxiell
(Actual 2005 pick: Francisco Garcνa)
The Pistons had some hope Maxiell would develop into a solid pro after a few promising moments early on in his career, but he's actually regressed a bit over the over the last couple of seasons. (He still has two years and $10 million left on his current contract.)

#24 – The Houston Rockets select: Linas Kleiza
(Actual 2005 pick: Luther Head)
Kleiza spent his first four years with the Nuggets, before playing in Greece for a year. Last summer he signed a contract with the Raptors, and was having a fine season until a severe injury sidelined him.

#25 – The Seattle Sonics select: Martell Webster
(Actual 2005 pick: Johan Petro)
Clearly a disappointment, as the Blazers used the 6th overall selection on Webster. Still, he is just 25 and has plenty time left to prove himself.

#26 – The Detroit Pistons select: Ronny Turiaf
(Actual 2005 pick: Jason Maxiell)
Turiaf has overcome a lot, in particular a life-threatening heart condition. Ronny has bounced back and has been a hard worker, grinder, and fan favorite everywhere he's played.

#27 – The Portland Trail Blazers select: Johan Petro
(Actual 2005 pick: Linas Kleiza)
Your classic journeyman center...

#28 – The San Antonio Spurs select: Ian Mahinmi
(Actual 2005 pick: Ian Mahinmi)
Mahinmi has purportedly impressed in practice at each of his stops, but is still too raw to crack the rotation in Dallas. That might change next year if Tyson Chandler (an unrestricted free agent) leaves Big D.

#29 – The Miami HEAT select: Luther Head
(Actual 2005 pick: Wayne Simien)
It appeared Head was destined for big things in Houston, when he emerged as a rotation player immediately. He was named second-team All-Rookie, and during his second season with the Rockets, he averaged 10.9 ppg and 2.2 three-pointers. But Luther hasn't been able to make the same NBA impact since. He spent last season in Sacarmento, appearing in 36 contests.

* As an interesting aside, the player actually picked with the 29th pick was Kansas All-American, Wayne Simien. Wayne won a title with the HEAT his rookie season, but shortly thereafter retired from basketball, at age 26. He is now working as a minister – here is a link to his story.

#30 – The New York Knicks select: Joey Graham
(Actual 2005 pick: David Lee)
Graham has started games for three different teams over the previous three seasons. A defensive-minded, tough-nosed forward, Graham spent last season in Cleveland, trying to help fill the gaping hole left by LeBron James.


Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=20380#ixzz1Ruh5QJOu

thatch3232
07-12-2011, 01:42 PM
So we got the 3rd best player in the draft with the 17th pick...doesn't get much more efficient than that! :dance:

Unclebuck
07-12-2011, 01:53 PM
Lou Williams is a nice player though

90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 02:30 PM
It really emphasizes how much of a crap shot the draft is. We are talking about some professionals whose only job is to scout future NBA talent

and they are still wrong at least 50% of the time

MTM
07-12-2011, 02:45 PM
I always enjoy the exercise of doing a hindsight draft. Leading up to draft night I remember going back and reading all the drafts for the past 20 years - but it's interesting that you could do the hindsight draft 5 or 6 years after a draft, then again 5 years after that (for 10 year vets), and find sometimes that guys who stuck in the league and improved their game and avoided injury moved up the draft even more, when guys who had 3 or 4 good years and a major injury would have been picked higher, but might be out of the league in 6 or 7 years.

thatch3232
07-12-2011, 03:36 PM
It still baffles me as to why teams take foreign, less known, "high ceiling" players #1 or very high (Bogut, Milicic) over the sure thing American's we've all seen play and know they will ateast be solid (Chris Paul, Lebron, Melo, Wade)

xBulletproof
07-12-2011, 03:39 PM
It still baffles me as to why teams take foreign, less known, "high ceiling" players #1 or very high (Bogut, Milicic) over the sure thing American's we've all seen play and know they will ateast be solid (Chris Paul, Lebron, Melo, Wade)

Did you really include Bogut in the list of foreigners we didn't know much about?

90'sNBARocked
07-12-2011, 03:52 PM
It still baffles me as to why teams take foreign, less known, "high ceiling" players #1 or very high (Bogut, Milicic) over the sure thing American's we've all seen play and know they will ateast be solid (Chris Paul, Lebron, Melo, Wade)

I think its like if you are going to play the lotto, play the 50 million dollar one, not the 50,000 dollar one

meaning they would ratehr go for the risk, so if that 1 in about every 50 foreign players becomes "DirkLike" they are hailed as a genuis

Will Galen
07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
Bird said Granger was 4th on the Pacers draft board that year.

I wonder how Paul George will be viewed in 5 years? Throw Lance in there too.

daschysta
07-12-2011, 03:59 PM
wasn't paul already like 3rd in Chad Ford's redraft?

thatch3232
07-12-2011, 04:07 PM
Did you really include Bogut in the list of foreigners we didn't know much about?

Would Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Danny Granger, Monta Ellis, or Andrew Bynum have been a better pick? Yes. So I included him.

croz24
07-12-2011, 04:10 PM
if healthy, i think you'd have to rank bynum and bogut ahead of granger and then flip a coin between granger and ellis. but there's a big separation between the top 6 and the rest of the class.

croz24
07-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Would Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Danny Granger, Monta Ellis, or Andrew Bynum have been a better pick? Yes. So I included him.

umm bogut was ap and espn player of the year, and won the naismith and wooden awards in 2005. no idea where you got the idea that bogut was an "unknown" or low-ceiling player... and when healthy, bogut has proven to be a top 3-5 center in the league and arguably the best defender at the center position.

xBulletproof
07-12-2011, 04:21 PM
Would Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Danny Granger, Monta Ellis, or Andrew Bynum have been a better pick? Yes. So I included him.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what you said. :laugh:

Infinite MAN_force
07-12-2011, 04:45 PM
Would Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Danny Granger, Monta Ellis, or Andrew Bynum have been a better pick? Yes. So I included him.

I would take Bogut over Ellis all day.

ballism
07-12-2011, 04:52 PM
That's like saying Joakim Noah or Hakeem were unknown, "high ceiling, high risk" foreigners.
Bogut was one of the best scouted, most established, safest picks in recent memory. There was no leap of faith involved with Bogut whatsoever, unlike with CP3 or Deron, who both posed some question marks.

And btw, healthy Bogut is easily top 3 on that list, in contention for no.1 for some teams. And it's not like there's something structurally wrong with him aside from migraines. He just had a freak hand injury. Nothing that could've been predicted pre-draft.

PS: this was regards the post that compares Bogut and Darko...

Lance George
07-12-2011, 06:34 PM
Bogut's a career 12/9 guy. Solid defender and above average passer for his position, sure, but in no way is he anywhere near an elite player, or even an All-Star type. He's also "lead" his teams to an average of 35 wins per-season.

Nice role player, but it's laughable to think he'd go above elite floor generals like Paul or Williams.

xBulletproof
07-12-2011, 07:23 PM
Bogut's a career 12/9 guy. Solid defender and above average passer for his position, sure, but in no way is he anywhere near an elite player, or even an All-Star type. He's also "lead" his teams to an average of 35 wins per-season.

Nice role player, but it's laughable to think he'd go above elite floor generals like Paul or Williams.

Big men take longer, and Bogut today is only 26 years old, and the last 2 years have been more like 15 points, 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks and 2 assists. Sounds like a pretty elite center in the league to me.

ballism
07-12-2011, 07:35 PM
A healthy Bogut is amazing. All I can say is watch some games prior to the hand injury, if you think he's not an All Star type.

vnzla81
07-12-2011, 07:45 PM
Bogut, Monta and Bynum should go in front of Danny.

OakMoses
07-12-2011, 08:25 PM
Bogut's a career 12/9 guy. Solid defender and above average passer for his position, sure, but in no way is he anywhere near an elite player, or even an All-Star type. He's also "lead" his teams to an average of 35 wins per-season.

Nice role player, but it's laughable to think he'd go above elite floor generals like Paul or Williams.

Let's remember that this "nowhere near elite player" absolutely destroys Roy Hibbert and the Pacers every time they play when he's healthy.

I agree with Croz's assessment earlier, but the "if healthy" disclaimer is a huge one.

Also, I guarantee that no GM considered Monta Ellis anywhere within the top 15 picks of this draft, so you can't really fault the Bucks for choosing Bogut over him.

BornReady
07-12-2011, 08:52 PM
haaahahaha we win we win we win ^___^

Lance George
07-12-2011, 08:55 PM
A healthy Bogut is amazing. All I can say is watch some games prior to the hand injury, if you think he's not an All Star type.

He's never been an All-Star for a reason. He's not good enough, and he doesn't win.

thatch3232
07-12-2011, 08:59 PM
He's never been an All-Star for a reason. He's not good enough, and he doesn't win.

And he's one of Roy's biggest rivals lol, so I'm not givin him any love

Lance George
07-12-2011, 09:05 PM
Big men take longer, and Bogut today is only 26 years old, and the last 2 years have been more like 15 points, 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks and 2 assists. Sounds like a pretty elite center in the league to me.

His rebounding and shot blocking have improved, and he's always been a nice passer for his size. I've never denied this. His scoring, however, is ho-hum. He had one season of 15+ ppg (15.9 the season-before-last) before regressing right back to his usual low double-figures self. In fact, I'd argue that this past season was the worst of his career on offense given his horrid inefficiency. Sub-.500 TS% (.496) from a big man? Yikes... For comparison's sake, Roy and Tyler had TS%'s of .507 and .529, respectively, this past season, and neither are known for their efficiency as scorers.

Again, Bogut's a nice (small) double-double role player, but nowhere near the franchise talent that Chris Paul and Deron Williams are. Let's see him put up 20/10 and lead Milwaukee to a 50+ win season, rather than their usual mid-30s. I wont be holding m breath.

thatch3232
07-12-2011, 09:12 PM
His rebounding and shot blocking have improved, and he's always been a nice passer for his size. I've never denied this. His scoring, however, is ho-hum. He had one season of 15+ ppg (15.9 the season-before-last) before regressing right back to his usual low double-figures self. In fact, I'd argue that this past season was the worst of his career, offensively, given his horrible inefficiency.

Again, a nice (small) double-double role player, but nowhere near the franchise talent that Chris Paul and Deron Williams are.

I agree, a very good role player, starter in the league, but personally, I'd rather have 5 other guys in the draft before him

TheColdHardTruth
07-13-2011, 01:47 AM
Bogut, Monta and Bynum should go in front of Danny.

Agreed. If you offered to trade Granger straight up for Bogut or Bynum, their respective teams you laugh you off the phone. You could probably trade him for Ellis, though, if only because GS is trying to move him anyway.

Frostwolf
07-13-2011, 02:04 AM
Nice role player

:laugh: you're hilarious.

ballism
07-13-2011, 05:59 AM
He's never been an All-Star for a reason. He's not good enough, and he doesn't win.

The reasons being injury, being an Aussie and not playing in New York? The guy gets snubbed and two months later he goes All-NBA despite missing a ton of games. Ahead of a bunch of healthy All stars.

Honestly, did you not know / forget about it, or did you just ignore it to make this ridiculous "Bogut is a role player" discussion even longer? Lets save some time. Believe what you must. It's not about achievements. If you missed Bogut's play when he was healthy in 2010, too bad for you. :p

PaceBalls
07-13-2011, 09:06 AM
Remember when David Harrison totally dominated Bogut in the summer league?
yeah...
uh... go Pacers!

Lance George
07-13-2011, 02:22 PM
The reasons being injury, being an Aussie and not playing in New York? The guy gets snubbed and two months later he goes All-NBA despite missing a ton of games. Ahead of a bunch of healthy All stars.

Honestly, did you not know / forget about it, or did you just ignore it to make this ridiculous "Bogut is a role player" discussion even longer? Lets save some time. Believe what you must. It's not about achievements. If you missed Bogut's play when he was healthy in 2010, too bad for you. :p

Really? You're gonna sit here and use being an Aussie and "not playing in New York" as valid reasons why coaches have never elected him to an All-Star team and expect people to take this sort of conspiracy theory nonsense seriously?

The real reason Bogut made the All-NBA 3rd Team in 2010 despite being snubbed from the All-Star team is simple: All-NBA teams differentiate between power forwards and centers; All-Star teams do not.

Bogut was named the third best performer at by far the league's weakest position, center, yet, according to Eastern coaches, wasn't one of the best four or five big men in the East that year. That sounds reasonable to me. He's a big fish in a small pond when it comes to strictly the center position, yet when we open the flood gates and include power forwards, he becomes an average fish in a huge ocean.

As for his play in 09-10: If you'd read above, you'd see that I addressed his 09-10 play and how that was his best scoring season, by far, and how he regressed back to his typical low double-figures form this past season.

Bogut's career: An average of 35 wins per season, two seasons in the playoffs (including the 2010 postseason, which he sat out entirely), four seasons in the lottery. 1-4 in five career playoff games, with Solomon Jones-like averages of 8.6 ppg, 6.2 rpg, .435 from the field and .375 from the line. :laugh:

He is what he is: A nice overall role player who will likely never be the best player on a great, or even very good, team. Any GM who would take him over Chris Paul or Deron Williams should not only be fired on the spot, they should be tarred-and-feathered and heckled by every NBA fan alive.

ballism
07-13-2011, 02:45 PM
Did I just see a Solomon Jones and Bogut comparison... :rolleyes:

Sorry if I won't bother with an equally lengthy reply.
I saw a healthy Bogut play as the 2nd best center in the league and a defensive player of the year candidate. You clearly never saw him as anything more than a role player.
I think we are from different dimensions. Analysis of unsophisticated stats won't change that.
PS: David Lee and Al Horford played nearly exclusively at center in 2009-2010 season. Just a random factoid for when you re-evalute your post. ;)

xBulletproof
07-13-2011, 06:54 PM
Holy cow you go into some tiny, tiny details and stats involved in really small sample sizes to go out of your way to dog Bogut. Yao Ming has been an All Star the last 2 years. Guess he's been elite. Tim Duncan was an All Star last year too, his 13 and 9 stats are impeccable, and yes Duncan was chosen by the coach. So don't bother to say the coaches don't make bad All Star choices.

That Paul Peirce guy, the one who's now a great closer, and a veteran winner, in 2006 was a perennial loser who couldn't do anything either. This is a freaking TEAM GAME. Bogut not making the playoffs or whatever is a reflection of the Bucks, not him. In 1996 when the Pacers floundered after a couple of ECF appearances, does that mean Reggie suddenly became bad and he's the reason we weren't in the playoffs, then the next year he popped back to form? Of course not. I've never understood the team success = good player argument. I guess the Bucks should dump Bogut and go get Mark Madsen.

The playoff games are such a small sample size it's absurd to infer anything from them at all. Reggie went 1-16 in an NBA Finals game too, guess he sucks.

You keep reading team records, individual accomplishments lists, and stats to form your opinion. I'll continue watching dozens of games with Bogut in them.

neosmndrew
07-13-2011, 07:45 PM
Both Bynum and Bogut have major health issues, which matter A LOT in trades. I wouldn't do Granger for either of them straight up just because he can stay healthy and they can't. Bogut is 20-10 potential, which would be better than Granger, but it has been stated how injury prone he is. I never got the hype of Bynum. He fits well in the triangle, but I don't see him being as good anywhere else- or at least he won't have another 7-footer alongside him mother other places.

vnzla81
07-13-2011, 08:34 PM
Both Bynum and Bogut have major health issues, which matter A LOT in trades. I wouldn't do Granger for either of them straight up just because he can stay healthy and they can't. Bogut is 20-10 potential, which would be better than Granger, but it has been stated how injury prone he is. I never got the hype of Bynum. He fits well in the triangle, but I don't see him being as good anywhere else- or at least he won't have another 7-footer alongside him mother other places.

I don't see Bogut as injury prone he just had a horrible injury and didn't recover well, I'll give you Bynum.

Shade
07-13-2011, 08:44 PM
It still baffles me as to why teams take foreign, less known, "high ceiling" players #1 or very high (Bogut, Milicic) over the sure thing American's we've all seen play and know they will ateast be solid (Chris Paul, Lebron, Melo, Wade)

You can't teach height.

Eleazar
07-13-2011, 08:55 PM
Remember when David Harrison totally dominated Bogut in the summer league?
yeah...
uh... go Pacers!

Yeah, Harrison had the ability to be an extremely good center in this league. If he would have had the work ethic Hibbert has he would probably had turned into one of the top center's in the league. At the time everyone even said the only reason he dropped to us was because there were serious red flags about his work ethic. At the 31st pick I think it was worth it to take a chance on him in case he did turn it around because he did have the talent to be great.

Lance George
07-13-2011, 11:48 PM
Holy cow you go into some tiny, tiny details and stats involved in really small sample sizes to go out of your way to dog Bogut.

I'm not "dogging" Bogut. I've said he's a very good role player, just not a franchise talent; a guy who can be The Man on a significant team.


Yao Ming has been an All Star the last 2 years. Guess he's been elite.

Being elected a starter in the All-Star game by the fans proves a players popularity level, not his ability level, thus your point fails miserably. The converse is typically true of the coach-voted reserves, which is what makes Bogut's zero All-Star appearances significant. Apparently, the league's coaches don't find Andrew Bogut to be quite as amazing as you and ballism do.



Tim Duncan was an All Star last year too, his 13 and 9 stats are impeccable, and yes Duncan was chosen by the coach. So don't bother to say the coaches don't make bad All Star choices.

Duncan probably didn't deserve to make the team, and I'm sure the coaches realized that. It was a respect bid; the coaches paying homage to his great career. Maybe it's not fair, but it's not a testament to NBA coaches' inability to correctly discern all-star talent, as you've made it out to be, either.


That Paul Peirce guy, the one who's now a great closer, and a veteran winner, in 2006 was a perennial loser who couldn't do anything either. This is a freaking TEAM GAME. Bogut not making the playoffs or whatever is a reflection of the Bucks, not him. In 1996 when the Pacers floundered after a couple of ECF appearances, does that mean Reggie suddenly became bad and he's the reason we weren't in the playoffs, then the next year he popped back to form? Of course not. I've never understood the team success = good player argument. I guess the Bucks should dump Bogut and go get Mark Madsen.

They don't need to dump Bogut, they just need to get a better best player. We probably do, too, although at least Danny brought his A-game when it mattered most.



The playoff games are such a small sample size it's absurd to infer anything from them at all.

Perhaps Bogut's teams will start winning on a consistent basis one of these days and we'll have a much larger sample-size to work with.


Reggie went 1-16 in an NBA Finals game too, guess he sucks.

Yes, because that single 1-16 performance nullifies years of playoff brilliance from Reggie. When you repeatedly prove yourself in the playoffs, as Reggie did, you're given leeway to throw up a stinker every now and then. The brilliance-to-disaster ratio is still overwhelmingly slanted towards the former.

What does that have to do with Andrew Bogut embarrassing himself in his lone playoff appearance? :confused:


You keep reading team records, individual accomplishments lists, and stats to form your opinion. I'll continue watching dozens of games with Bogut in them.

Watching dozens of games hasn't given you much of an argument outside of saying "I watch dozens of games." :shrug:

ColeTheMole
07-14-2011, 12:46 AM
Hey let's all argue

imawhat
07-14-2011, 03:24 AM
Bogut's the 2nd best defensive center in the league and he also happens to play solid offense. I'd trade any current Pacer to have him as nobody on our team is as good as Bogut (currently). Anyone who's watched enough Bucks basketball would put Bogut in the top 3 of the '05 draft.

daschysta
07-14-2011, 05:31 AM
Bogut no longer plays solid offense and is a huge injury concern. Last season he was a shell of what he was, and what he was is being overrated in here, and I do watch lots of bucks games.

Pacer!
07-14-2011, 08:21 AM
As for his play in 09-10: If you'd read above, you'd see that I addressed his 09-10 play and how that was his best scoring season, by far, and how he regressed back to his typical low double-figures form this past season.

Wow... not sure how you evaluate a player's 'typical' performance/stats based on their first 3 and a half seasons in the league; particularly given that player is a 7' pivot, the type of player which usually takes years to find their place and develop in this league.

Bogut's 15.9pts, 10rbs, 2asts, 2.5blks, campaign of 09-10 was fantastic output from a developing young centre in his 4th proper season of more than 30-odd games... saying he then regressed to his 'typical' (again this is absurd given his bare 3.5 seasons in the league) performance is simply a joke. This was DIRECTLY a result of one of the most atrocious injuries since Livingston's knee, and one that has greatly affected his shooting arm/hand and subsequently his entire game ever since.

Bogut WOULD have been a star in this league, possibly of the super-variety. He will never reach that potential now due to his horrific injury... but you can't say you aren't dogging Bogut when you say he would have only ever been a role player. His 09-10 campaign was not over-achieving, as you have been alluding to... this was only his 4th substantial season in the league and he would have without-a-doubt elevated his game further than this and become a bonafide-star in the NBA.