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View Full Version : So what do you think of this starting Five & Bench???



PaulGeorge81
07-12-2011, 09:18 AM
"Starting 5"

PG - D. Collinson
SG - P. George
SF - D. Granger
PF - D. West
C - R. Hibbert

"Bench"

6th man - George Hill
pf back up - Hansborough
back up pg - L. Stephenson
Back up C - Mc Roberts
back up wing - D. Jones

luis3ep
07-12-2011, 09:45 AM
we don't need david west.

Kegboy
07-12-2011, 09:47 AM
Regardless of one's feelings on West, if we only get one rotational player with all our cap space then that's a colossal failure.

Speed
07-12-2011, 09:48 AM
I think its maybe this:

DC
Paul
Danny
Carl Landry
Roy

Bench
George Hill
Lance
DG or PG (staying in the game in a nine man rotation)
Tyler
Jeff

I think they will keep Paul or Danny in the game by staggering their rotations and go with 9 man group, if at all possible. I think if Lance isn't ready or is a turnover machine then you see Brandon or D Jones get minutes there, which I think is no problem.

Worse case scenario you have to play D Jones at back up two guard and Brandon as back up 3. When you're 2nd unit is on the floor at the same time, you don't have a scorer in the group.

Two me the biggest issues are DC and Roys defense are not good, consistently, this doesn't get solved with adding Landry. Secondly, the bench scoring isn't good unless you have Danny in the game or possibly Paul, unless Lance ripens.

The overall talent improves with adding Landry and moving Tyler to the bench, but you still have holes with still have bad defense in the starting line up and no real 2nd unit scorer.

Still a good group, much improved overall from 2 years ago.

Since86
07-12-2011, 09:50 AM
I think this is exactly like the other 15 threads about David West.

This is going to be a looooong offseason/lockout.

Lance George
07-12-2011, 09:56 AM
The front court is way too soft and lacking in rebounding.

Speed
07-12-2011, 10:14 AM
One thing by getting West or Landry or whoever, is it moves Tyler to the bench, which goes a long way to improving that unit. Plus I love the Hansbrough/Foster combo in the game together.

You still have to get a functional 5th big and I'm pretty sure Jmac doesn't want to be with a team where he's not even a rotation guy or has to exclusively play center.

What I'm saying is as soon as the Pacers sign a Free Agent Power Forward and Jeff Foster, Jmac is done here, right?

vnzla81
07-12-2011, 10:27 AM
That would be an scary 8th place........

CableKC
07-12-2011, 11:05 AM
I think that there is the room for significant improvement. I'd would prefer a different Starting PF, Starting SG and a Backup Center. I'd prefer to have PG be our 1st Wing SG/SF off the bench getting 28+ mpg ( not Starting but getting solid minutes ) and would prefer a new solid Backup Center ( Foster...but optimally, I'd prefer Foster to be the 5th Big Man behind Hibbert / Starting PF / Hansbrough / 4th Backup Center ).

PG - DC
SG - New Starting SG?
SF - Granger
PF - New Starting PF?
C - Hibbert

1st WingMan off the Bench - PG
1st Guard off the Bench - GH
1st Big Man off the Bench - Hansbrough
1st Backup Center off the Bench - New Backup Center or Foster

imawhat
07-12-2011, 11:13 AM
"Starting 5"

PG - D. Collinson
SG - P. George
SF - D. Granger
PF - D. West
C - R. Hibbert

"Bench"

6th man - George Hill
pf back up - Hansborough
back up pg - L. Stephenson
Back up C - Mc Roberts
back up wing - D. Jones


My prediction is that it's very close to next year's lineup, except I have Foster at backup C.

Justin Tyme
07-12-2011, 11:32 AM
I think that there is the room for significant improvement. I'd would prefer a different Starting PF, Starting SG and a Backup Center. I'd prefer to have PG be our 1st Wing SG/SF off the bench getting 28+ mpg ( not Starting but getting solid minutes ) and would prefer a new solid Backup Center ( Foster...but optimally, I'd prefer Foster to be the 5th Big Man behind Hibbert / Starting PF / Hansbrough / 4th Backup Center ).

PG - DC
SG - New Starting SG?
SF - Granger
PF - New Starting PF?
C - Hibbert

1st WingMan off the Bench - PG
1st Guard off the Bench - GH
1st Big Man off the Bench - Hansbrough
1st Backup Center off the Bench - New Backup Center or Foster


So you think Paul George isn't good enough to start at SG? I thought that issue should have been put to rest after the playoffs. That position shouldn't even an issue with Bird's acquistion of George Hill. Supposedly, Bird strengthened that position with acquiring George Hill.

Speed
07-12-2011, 11:44 AM
On Paul, personally, I want him to start and then take him out for George Hill as one of the first substitutions. However, then put him back in to be a main scorer with the second unit for a good 12 minutes a night.

I'm not saying run Paul into the ground, but I'd play him every minute you can.

He's not your typical young kid, he doesn't make many turnover type mistakes. This way you get to let him be a big time defender with the first unit, but also give him more responsibility with being a scorer with the bench players. The bench is going to need help scoring anyway. I'm not saying iso him everytime down, but run some action for him, PnR, and iso.

Honestly, I'd play Paul almost 36 minutes a game, starting next year, if he could do it conditioning wise.

I could go through the whole rotation and sub pattern that I think, but those things are so hard to follow sometimes, but I'd do the above, for sure.

CableKC
07-12-2011, 12:46 PM
So you think Paul George isn't good enough to start at SG? I thought that issue should have been put to rest after the playoffs. That position shouldn't even an issue with Bird's acquistion of George Hill. Supposedly, Bird strengthened that position with acquiring George Hill.
At least for the upcoming season.... I think that PG is better served to backup our Starting SG and SF while playing in the 2nd unit. Even if he is the Backup to both Granger and whatever new Starting SG that I hope we get....I don't make such a strong distinction between who "Starts" and whose the "Backup. He maybe in my preferred 2nd unit...but my whole intention was to ensure that he plays 28+ minutes while easing him into the Starting role over the next 2 seasons.

As for GH....I am of the opinion that he's a ComboGuard that should split most of his time at the backup Point Guard spot playing 18+ minutes running the point...while playing a minimal 8 to 10 minutes at the backup SG spot next to DC.

For me, I'd rather have a strong Starting lineup with a very good scoring SG with a strong 2nd unit with PG and GH coming off the bench. I want a very strong 9 man rotation and putting PG and GH in the 2nd unit only strengthens the rotation.

I know that many of you have a very high opinion of PG.....I just don't think that he's there yet and I don't want to rush him. I really hope that PG will be able to become a future Starter for the Pacers.....I just want to ensure that he has the opportunity to do so over time without putting an undue amount of pressure on him in his 2nd season.

OakMoses
07-12-2011, 12:57 PM
"Starting 5"

PG - D. Collinson
SG - P. George
SF - D. Granger
PF - D. West
C - R. Hibbert

"Bench"

6th man - George Hill
pf back up - Hansborough
back up pg - L. Stephenson
Back up C - Mc Roberts
back up wing - D. Jones

To answer the question in the thread title, it sounds like perennial first round playoff exits. That could change if 2 of the Hibbert, Collison, Hansbrough, George, Stephenson, Hill crowd become at least Granger-level players, or if 4-5 of the 6 become really good rotation players.

Sookie
07-12-2011, 02:44 PM
I don't think this'll be our roster when the season starts. A lot also depends on how we view George Hill.

RLeWorm
07-12-2011, 03:10 PM
y hasn't no one mentioned on picking up tayshaun prince?

Peck
07-12-2011, 03:14 PM
y hasn't no one mentioned on picking up tayshaun prince?

Maybe because we have no need for him?:whoknows:

Gamble1
07-12-2011, 03:34 PM
For me, I'd rather have a strong Starting lineup with a very good scoring SG with a strong 2nd unit with PG and GH coming off the bench. I want a very strong 9 man rotation and putting PG and GH in the 2nd unit only strengthens the rotation.

I know that many of you have a very high opinion of PG.....I just don't think that he's there yet and I don't want to rush him. I really hope that PG will be able to become a future Starter for the Pacers.....I just want to ensure that he has the opportunity to do so over time without putting an undue amount of pressure on him in his 2nd season.
I would also rather have PG come off the bench this year but if we get a scoring pf then there really isn't too much pressure on PG to score which is what I think you mean.

PG defensively belongs in the starting lineup and its only his offense that would keep him out. IMO a guy like David West changes what PG needs to do offensively speaking.

OVerall offensive options based on ability would be:
DG-1st
Roy-2nd
DC-3rd/4th
David West 3rd/4th
PG- 5th.

Tyler and Hill are the first off the bench to replace PG/Collison and Dwest.

I like the idea of having a defensive stopper always on the floor and we would have that with PG in the starting lineup and Hill in with the second unit.

Infinite MAN_force
07-12-2011, 04:42 PM
What exactly was the nature of David West's injury? Is it the sort of injury where he will remain a half step slow for another full season before it is fully healed? Is it the sort of injury that tends to reoccur and be a chronic issue?

West's game is not really the sort that relies on athleticism, so one could suppose he still has the capability of being an effective player to a later age than some.

OakMoses
07-12-2011, 08:19 PM
My prediction is that it's very close to next year's lineup, except I have Foster at backup C.

I really hope you're wrong. Especially on the West front, but I also think we need a younger, more reliable back-up center than Foster. I love Jeff and I think he can still play, but I think we need a guy who can give us what Jeff did in the playoffs for 70+ games. Hibbert has not shown himself to be consistently reliable, and when his game went south last year, we lost. I think that backup C is as important a position to upgrade as any on the roster.




OVerall offensive options based on ability would be:
DG-1st
Roy-2nd
DC-3rd/4th
David West 3rd/4th
PG- 5th.


You don't pay West $10+ million to be your 4th option. West's scoring ability is by far his best attribute. If he's on this team next year, he's the clear number 2 option behind Danny. He's far, far ahead of Hibbert and Collison offensively.


I think that there is the room for significant improvement. I'd would prefer a different Starting PF, Starting SG and a Backup Center. I'd prefer to have PG be our 1st Wing SG/SF off the bench getting 28+ mpg ( not Starting but getting solid minutes ) and would prefer a new solid Backup Center ( Foster...but optimally, I'd prefer Foster to be the 5th Big Man behind Hibbert / Starting PF / Hansbrough / 4th Backup Center ).

PG - DC
SG - New Starting SG?
SF - Granger
PF - New Starting PF?
C - Hibbert

1st WingMan off the Bench - PG
1st Guard off the Bench - GH
1st Big Man off the Bench - Hansbrough
1st Backup Center off the Bench - New Backup Center or Foster

I like Cable's rotation suggestions the best. I don't think running PG out there as the starting 2 with a lineup that closely resembles our season ending lineup would really be that good for the development of his game. If you want to continue to pigeonhole him as a defensive specialist, that's fine, but he will never be encouraged to expand his offense much if he spends all his time on the floor with DC, Granger, Tyler (or another offensive-minded PF), and Hibbert. All of those guys have insanely high usage rates, and unless Vogel's going to change to a more structured offense where he calls frequent plays for PG, there are just not enough shots to go around.

The main problem I see with our roster is that our only 2 true complementary players (Foster and McRoberts) are both free agents. Every other rotation-level player we have tends to monopolize the ball and likes to look for their own offense over that of others. To me this is what makes getting a really efficient guy like Nene so attractive. Last year Nene averaged nearly 15 ppg on just under 9 shots per game. In contrast, Roy averaged 2 points less on 2 more shots. We need to find players who impact the game without scoring or demanding the ball. We've got plenty of guys who are willing and able to shoot (especially since we picked up Hill), we just need to get a system that maximizes their talents and a few guys who'd rather pass than shoot.

Banta
07-12-2011, 09:32 PM
y hasn't no one mentioned on picking up tayshaun prince?

Because we all hate him for blocking Reggie's lay-up. :mad:

beast23
07-12-2011, 10:29 PM
OVerall offensive options based on ability would be:
DG-1st
Roy-2nd
DC-3rd/4th
David West 3rd/4th
PG- 5th.

Tyler and Hill are the first off the bench to replace PG/Collison and Dwest.

I like the idea of having a defensive stopper always on the floor and we would have that with PG in the starting lineup and Hill in with the second unit.
I agree with mellifluous regarding pecking order of scoring options... only I would go a step further:

DG - 1A
West - 1B
DC - 3
Roy - 4th
PG - 5th

West will provide the PnR with Collison and will be utilized every bit as much as Granger's perimeter shooting. Collison, due to his increased scoring opportunities while running the PnR with West, will get more opportunities than Hibbert, therefore can be viewed as the #3 scoring option. The good thing is that West is not an easy cover straight up and Hibbert's efficiency should go up due to the many open looks he will get when his defender helps cover West.

Like you, I believe George is in the starting lineup for length/defense in covering opposing SGs.

Although West may not be able to provide the defensive presence some would hope, I think many of us would enjoy watching this lineup on the offensive end of the floor.

CableKC
07-12-2011, 10:34 PM
I like Cable's rotation suggestions the best. I don't think running PG out there as the starting 2 with a lineup that closely resembles our season ending lineup would really be that good for the development of his game. If you want to continue to pigeonhole him as a defensive specialist, that's fine, but he will never be encouraged to expand his offense much if he spends all his time on the floor with DC, Granger, Tyler (or another offensive-minded PF), and Hibbert. All of those guys have insanely high usage rates, and unless Vogel's going to change to a more structured offense where he calls frequent plays for PG, there are just not enough shots to go around.

The main problem I see with our roster is that our only 2 true complementary players (Foster and McRoberts) are both free agents. Every other rotation-level player we have tends to monopolize the ball and likes to look for their own offense over that of others.
The way that I look at it....whatever Starting PF that we get....I'd expect him to be playing Starter minutes....probably 30 to 32 mpg. With Hibbert and Hansbrough left.....I'd expect that the primary Frontcourt PF/C rotation of Hibbert, whoever the Starting PF ( West or preferably Nene ) and Hansbrough will get the bulk of the Frontcourt minutes...playing roughly a total of 82 to 86 minutes between the 3 of them......thus leaving roughly 12 to 16 minutes for whoever the backup Center is.

IMHO...I think that Foster ( who complements anyone ), even at his age...could handle that load ( a consistent 12 to 16 mpg ) on a regular basis as the backup to Hibbert, the Starting PF and Hansbrough. But to be honest....I'm hoping that the Backup Center role ( getting that 12 to 16 mpg ) that Foster could fill would be filled by Stanko.


To me this is what makes getting a really efficient guy like Nene so attractive. Last year Nene averaged nearly 15 ppg on just under 9 shots per game. In contrast, Roy averaged 2 points less on 2 more shots. We need to find players who impact the game without scoring or demanding the ball. We've got plenty of guys who are willing and able to shoot (especially since we picked up Hill), we just need to get a system that maximizes their talents and a few guys who'd rather pass than shoot.
Another reason why I would put Nene ahead of West on my list is because Nene can switch over to the Center spot when Hansbrough comes off the bench.

joeyd
07-12-2011, 11:01 PM
I really hope you're wrong. Especially on the West front, but I also think we need a younger, more reliable back-up center than Foster. I love Jeff and I think he can still play, but I think we need a guy who can give us what Jeff did in the playoffs for 70+ games. Hibbert has not shown himself to be consistently reliable, and when his game went south last year, we lost. I think that backup C is as important a position to upgrade as any on the roster.


I would like to see the stats that support your statement that when Hibbert's game went south, we lost. My recollection is that Jeff filled in quite admirably for him, with the only statistical area in questioin being blocks per game. If you check out the following link, you will see that Foster had the highest winning percentage of any Pacer last year for games in which he played:
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND1.HTM

To me, the key is Hibbert playing like a starting center. If he can avoid foul trouble and develop a killer instinct, we will have all you would want in a starting center. Do we need another big? Sure, but I'm happy to have him learn under Jeff for a year.

jeffg-body
07-12-2011, 11:18 PM
I really like the line up if Hill and Tyler get big minutes backing up their positions.

OakMoses
07-13-2011, 12:04 AM
I would like to see the stats that support your statement that when Hibbert's game went south, we lost. My recollection is that Jeff filled in quite admirably for him, with the only statistical area in questioin being blocks per game. If you check out the following link, you will see that Foster had the highest winning percentage of any Pacer last year for games in which he played:
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND1.HTM

To me, the key is Hibbert playing like a starting center. If he can avoid foul trouble and develop a killer instinct, we will have all you would want in a starting center. Do we need another big? Sure, but I'm happy to have him learn under Jeff for a year.

Roy averaged 12.7 points per game last year. He scored above his average (13+ points) 43 times. In those 43 games, the Pacers were 26-17. In the 39 games where Hibbert scored 12 or fewer points, the Pacers were 11-28. Thus, when Hibbert doesn't score, the Pacers are not good.

The problem isn't that Foster doesn't adequately fill in for Hibbert. The problem is that when Hibbert isn't scoring he's still on the floor providing very few positives.

Gamble1
07-13-2011, 10:30 AM
You don't pay West $10+ million to be your 4th option. West's scoring ability is by far his best attribute. If he's on this team next year, he's the clear number 2 option behind Danny. He's far, far ahead of Hibbert and Collison offensively.


I like Cable's rotation suggestions the best. I don't think running PG out there as the starting 2 with a lineup that closely resembles our season ending lineup would really be that good for the development of his game. If you want to continue to pigeonhole him as a defensive specialist, that's fine, but he will never be encouraged to expand his offense much if he spends all his time on the floor with DC, Granger, Tyler (or another offensive-minded PF), and Hibbert. All of those guys have insanely high usage rates, and unless Vogel's going to change to a more structured offense where he calls frequent plays for PG, there are just not enough shots to go around.

Longterm I agree with you but this is about what happens next year. I think Vogel expands the pnp/r plays but early on I think we stick to dumping it down low for Hibbert. West injury will defiantly limit the first half of the season on how we play him with Collison. For one West won't be playing 30 some minutes like last year. I expect Hibbert to get an early low post pass and if he passes out then Danny gets the ball or Collison and Dwest do the pnp/r.

Half of Dwest scoring last year was with 8 seconds left on the clock and I think he would be a good option if the intial play breaks down.

My rating of the scoring option is not what I thnk should happen but what I think will happen based on the injury and West adjusting to it early on.