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View Full Version : The Head Coach and "The Core"



NuffSaid
07-06-2011, 02:23 PM
Now that Bird has decided to remove the interim tag from Frank Vogel and make him the Pacers' head coach, I think it's time to start feeling out the roster somewhat.

In his post-draft interview, Bird spoke of the "core" group of players for the team, but he didn't identify who was among that core group. I would think the core consists of:

Likely Starters:
C - Hibbert
PF - Jmac (or Hans, if Jmac doesn't resign)
SF - Granger
PG - Collison
SG - George Hill

Primary Reserves:
SF - Dahntey Jones
SG - Paul George
PF - Hans (if not the starting PF assuming Jmac walks)
Combo Guard: Lance Stephenson

Possibly retained, but Odd men out:
Price

FA's...Doubtful to return:
Dunleavy, Foster (though I hope I'm wrong)

Most Likely to be Traded:
BRush

Won't return:
Ford, Solo, Posey

I think with the 9 players I've listed as likely starters and primary reserves, this team if healthy can win 45-48 games easily, if not more. The team's immediate needs at this point is to either retain Foster or find another backup Center. All other positions should be adequately covered.

Day-V
07-06-2011, 02:27 PM
As long as both are healthy, I think it'd be very unlikely to see J-Mac start over Tyler again. Frank loves Tyler too much. And rightfully so. Psycho T is awesome. (J-Mac is awesome, too, for that matter)

And Posey is still under contract, so the only way he's not back with us is if he's traded.

adamscb
07-06-2011, 02:34 PM
no way paul george and hansbrough go to the bench, george hill will be our 6th man.

Speed
07-06-2011, 02:53 PM
I'd guess one possibility is getting a starting PF who is your second best player on the entire team, that would move TH to the bench. Second possibility is getting a 4/5 combo guy that would back up both Roy and TH.

I think Hill backs up the 1 and 2 and gets almost as minutes as DC and Paul George. Lance gets whatever is left over unless he really is what Bird thinks he is, then all bets are off. Rush and D Jones are the odd men out. Lance is the wild card he could be 25 mins a night or zero.

Regardless your 'core' is the starting 5 last year plus George Hill, nothing else changes until things change. I can't see a scenario where those 6 aren't prominent in playing time next year. Everything else is up for debate. From Lance to FA signings.

It's a pretty good Point Guard/Wing group. Something needs figured out in the frontcourt.

Side note: it fells like a 95% chance Jeff comes back. I'd still wouldn't call him regular season core at this point, since you can't play him bulk minutes over a season. I'd consider him a playoff core, without even thinking about it, though.

yoadknux
07-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Paul George is probably going to start, but Hill will see more minutes.
Hill played 28 mpg last season, backing up guys like Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. He will recieve at the very least the same amount of minutes he recieved in SA last year

jhondog28
07-06-2011, 04:46 PM
Now that Bird has decided to remove the interim tag from Frank Vogel and make him the Pacers' head coach, I think it's time to start feeling out the roster somewhat.

In his post-draft interview, Bird spoke of the "core" group of players for the team, but he didn't identify who was among that core group. I would think the core consists of:

Likely Starters:
C - Hibbert
PF - Jmac (or Hans, if Jmac doesn't resign)
SF - Granger
PG - Collison
SG - George Hill

Primary Reserves:
SF - Dahntey Jones
SG - Paul George
PF - Hans (if not the starting PF assuming Jmac walks)
Combo Guard: Lance Stephenson

Possibly retained, but Odd men out:
Price

FA's...Doubtful to return:
Dunleavy, Foster (though I hope I'm wrong)

Most Likely to be Traded:
BRush

Won't return:
Ford, Solo, Posey

I think with the 9 players I've listed as likely starters and primary reserves, this team if healthy can win 45-48 games easily, if not more. The team's immediate needs at this point is to either retain Foster or find another backup Center. All other positions should be adequately covered.

I think you are very optimistic. I just still dont see the talent on this roster to get that many wins. I think Hibbert is an average center and Hill should be a starter on this team. He was essentially their lottery pick

CableKC
07-06-2011, 05:54 PM
McBob is not part of my future core as long as Hansbrough is on the Team.

I want a Smashmouth Frontcourt and McBob...despite his athleticsm and outstanding passing...isn't Smashmouth enough for me.

My future core of Players is made up 9 Players....3 of which aren't on the roster yet:

Guards - DC and GH
WingMen - Granger, Starting Quality Free Agent SG-SF and PG
Frontcourt - Hibbert, Starting Quality Free Agent Starting PF-Backup, Hansbrough and Backup Free Agent Center ( maybe Foster if we get a Solid PF that can play some backup Center minutes ).

Midcoasted
07-07-2011, 02:19 AM
As long as both are healthy, I think it'd be very unlikely to see J-Mac start over Tyler again. Frank loves Tyler too much. And rightfully so. Psycho T is awesome. (J-Mac is awesome, too, for that matter)

And Posey is still under contract, so the only way he's not back with us is if he's traded.

Maybe there could be a possible buyout in the works since we can eat a little cash if we don't reach the cap this year? I know Posey expires, but why not just eat the 7 million up front and that leave us room to bring in an UDFA for a cool mil because we should be at least 10 million under the cap next year? Posey could turn into a cancer not playing. Almost all NBA veterans riding the bench have that potential. Posey was definitely the most effected by JOBs departure, and I am thankful for that. Because JOB literally replaced Murphy with him and it pissed me off more than I could stand. I almost gave up on the Pacers over it until he was gone.

My biggest beef with Bird was keeping JOB, and I still can't understand why he wasn't fired sooner. I guess there was too much loyalty. But that was Bird's biggest flaw in that situation. JOB kept running our young talent into the ground for nobody veterans who aren't a part of the future at all. I guess some dogs can't learn new tricks and I don't fault JOB for trying to "win now," but the irony of it was is it caused him to "lose now" and most likely cost him another chance at an NBA head coaching job. That and his terrible "system" that he stuck to like glue and would never veer too far from.


I hate the Posey deal because Murphy's atrocious contract is still hurting us due to Posey's slightly less atrocious deal. :mad:

I long for the day when Murphy's contract no longer haunts us, because it will be the final chapter of the impact from the brawl.

Midcoasted
07-07-2011, 02:29 AM
I want a Smashmouth Frontcourt and McBob...despite his athleticsm and outstanding passing...isn't Smashmouth enough for me.


I think you're selling JMac short. The dude is only 24 and just came off his first year in an NBA rotation and has a highlight reel full of spetacular plays from essentially his first full year. He will get stronger with age and effort, most men do. Hence why most "primes" for big men are about 26-31 in the NBA IMO.

We will be hard pressed to find better value for what we should be able to sign him for that can back-up both the 4 and 5 situationally. Sure we need to add a "smashmouth" player, but I feel we already have that in Hansbrough, so Jmac is a good change of pace off the bench. All we really need is a young Foster like player with a better offensive game to back-up Hibbert because it wouldn't be fair to count of Jeff for that roll for 82 games plus the playoffs.

imawhat
07-07-2011, 02:43 AM
I expect this to be our rotation next season:

Collison/Hill/Stephenson
George/Hill/Rush
Granger/George
West/Hansbrough
Hibbert/Foster


The core and our coach is probably the easiest group I've ever had the privilege of rooting for.

BillS
07-07-2011, 11:16 AM
There seem to be an awful lot of folks who think it is a foregone conclusion that PG and DC will start over Hill. I'm not so convinced, and I am looking forward to a real battle for the starting 1 and 2 spots among those three.

graphic-er
07-07-2011, 03:59 PM
With this core going forward, I will full expect us to be battling Philly for the 4th and 5th seed. We are just going to be that much better next year. While some other teams like Atlanta and Orlando will be taking a step back. I honestly think Orlando implodes mid-season as they are forced to trade Howard. Atlanta will end up making a stupid deal in getting rid of Smith, and just wont' be nearly as good. Knicks - i'm just not sure they can get much better with out a huge upgrade at the defensive end, and they likely won't get it with D' Antoni as coach regardless.

beast23
07-07-2011, 05:30 PM
The core and our coach is probably the easiest group I've ever had the privilege of rooting for.

I like your lineup, but with minor changes...

Collison/Hill/Stephenson
George/Hill/DJones
Granger/George/DJones
West/Hansbrough
Hibbert/Foster

I also think that West will be the PF that the Pacers target. They want a defensive presence, but I believe offensive consistency and a PnR game will win out. I don't believe the Pacers will be able to land Chandler or Nene and trading for Smith to get a better defensive presence has the risk of possibly being a short-term rental followed by a loss of Smith to free agency.

I believe Lance will get minutes, but they will be small... probably no more than 8-10 per game. DJones' defensive abilities will earn him minutes at the wings, perhaps 10-15 minutes per game. Much to my pleasure, Foster will continue being Foster, but will miss a game now and then due to his hip and or lower back.

I think we need to note that with either of our lineups, the Pacers would still be in need of a 5th big, one that is at least capable of playing C when Foster is not available.

Sookie
07-07-2011, 05:44 PM
There seem to be an awful lot of folks who think it is a foregone conclusion that PG and DC will start over Hill. I'm not so convinced, and I am looking forward to a real battle for the starting 1 and 2 spots among those three.

I think players will actually get to compete for playing time this season. Or at least I hope so.

And it wouldn't surprise me, if Hill is our best SG and PG right now. I could be wrong, I haven't seen him play too much..but I'll always defer to the Spurs franchise..who preferred him over Parker.

And this is only for this season, maybe just the start. I expect George to be better than Hill quickly, but he still is pretty young and pretty raw.

graphic-er
07-08-2011, 12:03 AM
I like your lineup, but with minor changes...

Collison/Hill/Stephenson
George/Hill/DJones
Granger/George/DJones
West/Hansbrough
Hibbert/Foster

I also think that West will be the PF that the Pacers target. They want a defensive presence, but I believe offensive consistency and a PnR game will win out. I don't believe the Pacers will be able to land Chandler or Nene and trading for Smith to get a better defensive presence has the risk of possibly being a short-term rental followed by a loss of Smith to free agency.

I believe Lance will get minutes, but they will be small... probably no more than 8-10 per game. DJones' defensive abilities will earn him minutes at the wings, perhaps 10-15 minutes per game. Much to my pleasure, Foster will continue being Foster, but will miss a game now and then due to his hip and or lower back.

I think we need to note that with either of our lineups, the Pacers would still be in need of a 5th big, one that is at least capable of playing C when Foster is not available.

How do you have Hill as the back up 1 and 2? He can't play both positions at the same time. I think he starts at the 2 and slides over to the 1.

beast23
07-09-2011, 01:14 AM
How do you have Hill as the back up 1 and 2? He can't play both positions at the same time. I think he starts at the 2 and slides over to the 1.
Pretty simple really.... it just means that he is the first guard off the bench, regardless of the position. A depth chart has nothing to do with who is on the court at any particular time, it merely specifies who is the preferred backup for the position.

For example, if Hill has already entered the game to back up Collison at the point and let's say that George picks up his second foul in the first quarter, you have two alternatives. Either Collison re-enters at PG and Hill slides over to SG, or Hill remains at PG and DJones enters as SG.

Right now, I think Hill could be the starter at SG, but I also think that George has proven that he is capable of playing excellent defense at the position and with any improvement at all, might prove much more consistent offensively. With his much greater length and the improvement, he might be a much more difficult player for the opponent to guard. Again, this all takes into consideration a lot of growth beyond last season's performance. Personally, I think George is up to the challenge.

Eleazar
07-09-2011, 05:06 PM
With this core going forward, I will full expect us to be battling Philly for the 4th and 5th seed. We are just going to be that much better next year. While some other teams like Atlanta and Orlando will be taking a step back. I honestly think Orlando implodes mid-season as they are forced to trade Howard. Atlanta will end up making a stupid deal in getting rid of Smith, and just wont' be nearly as good. Knicks - i'm just not sure they can get much better with out a huge upgrade at the defensive end, and they likely won't get it with D' Antoni as coach regardless.

I agree, except that I don't think we will be competing with Philly, but Atlanta. Even without Smith Atlanta still has a lot of talent, so I don't see them falling off much without Smith. They don't have a lack of talent, just a lack of money from overpaying that talent. They certainly wouldn't be as good without Smith, but as long as they got a half-way decent trade I don't think it would cause them to fall off that much.

Psyren
07-09-2011, 07:59 PM
Paul George won't be coming off the bench.

George Hill is a good defender, but he and DC are simply too small, and George Hill will do better off the bench.

In most games, I think we'll see Hill finish with more minutes than PG though.

And, if we don't find a starting PF, we'll be screwed. I'm not a J-Mac fan at all (I know some are) and I'm a huge Hans fan, but neither are starters. Hans is better as a backup, and frankly, I think J-Mac is better in the D-League.

graphic-er
07-10-2011, 12:53 AM
Paul George won't be coming off the bench.

George Hill is a good defender, but he and DC are simply too small, and George Hill will do better off the bench.

In most games, I think we'll see Hill finish with more minutes than PG though.

And, if we don't find a starting PF, we'll be screwed. I'm not a J-Mac fan at all (I know some are) and I'm a huge Hans fan, but neither are starters. Hans is better as a backup, and frankly, I think J-Mac is better in the D-League.

i dont' know about that, if Hill can guard Kobe Bryant effectively, then he can guard any 2 in the league.

Doddage
07-10-2011, 12:55 AM
George Hill's skillset is best suited to come off the bench. Hopefully Vogel sees it the same way.

Psyren
07-10-2011, 01:31 AM
i dont' know about that, if Hill can guard Kobe Bryant effectively, then he can guard any 2 in the league.

I don't care how you look at it, and how well he defended Kobe, it's too small.

Having a guy 6'0 and a guy 6'2 is just too small.

And Paul George hasn't necessarily shown that he can carry the offensive load for the bench. I think George Hill can do that, and he's proven he can.

Like I said, I think Hill will finish games, but I just think he's better suited to come off the bench.

Remember, coming off the bench doesn't make him a worse player than PG. I just think he fits that role better.

pacer4ever
07-10-2011, 02:08 AM
I don't care how you look at it, and how well he defended Kobe, it's too small.

Having a guy 6'0 and a guy 6'2 is just too small.

And Paul George hasn't necessarily shown that he can carry the offensive load for the bench. I think George Hill can do that, and he's proven he can.

Like I said, I think Hill will finish games, but I just think he's better suited to come off the bench.

Remember, coming off the bench doesn't make him a worse player than PG. I just think he fits that role better.

When has Hill shown he can carry the scoring load off the bench? Normally all he did was make open jump shots. Manu or TP were normally playing with him and normally "carrying the load". If you expect him to be some scoring machine off the bench ala Jason Terry i think you will be disappointed