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PacersPride
07-05-2011, 03:02 PM
No NBA FA's too discuss due too a lockout, so I thought this would be as good a time as any too form conclusions on the 3 year plan.

Was it a success? Did Bird do what he setout too do? Feel welcome to offer up any insight on why you feel the 3 year plan was or was not a success.

I dont know if we would include this offseason in with the 3 year plan or not, but I think we have enough evidence too now form or support an opinion on Legends performance.

Unless Legend goes and signs Jamal Tinsley too an MLE... I think its safe too place a verdict on the plan Bird had in place.

Do you believe Birds three year plan was a success.. ?

purdue101
07-05-2011, 03:06 PM
too early to tell IMO. i've always stated that i will not fully judge bird until i see our roster and cap situation on opening night of the 11/12 season. who knows what he does with the cap space during this offseason.

as of today, i can say i'm optimistic. we have a ton of young talent who made the playoffs, all our picks, and cap space.....couldn't ask for more at this point.

Unclebuck
07-05-2011, 03:08 PM
it is sort of like we are at the end of the 3rd quarter of a game and the score is tied. Too soon to tell. So far it is OK. This year is key though

wintermute
07-05-2011, 03:17 PM
Yeah, getting cap space is a key element of the 3 year plan. So what we do with it is going to be pretty important.

So far, the early returns aren't bad. Arguably we got Collison and Hill in part because of cap space. Collison from absorbing Posey's contract and Hill because the Spurs think they couldn't afford to re-sign him while we certainly could. Though obviously the picks are the more important part of the Hill trade.

PacersPride
07-05-2011, 03:19 PM
too early to tell IMO. i've always stated that i will not fully judge bird until i see our roster and cap situation on opening night of the 11/12 season. who knows what he does with the cap space during this offseason.

as of today, i can say i'm optimistic. we have a ton of young talent who made the playoffs, all our picks, and cap space.....couldn't ask for more at this point.

i agree, but this is the official close too the three year plan Bird mentioned he had set in stone. the lockout does not allow this offseason too go forward but i think overall many fans three years ago may have nvr believed Bird could put this Franchise in the position it is today.

Your final sentence summarizes it perfectly.


it is sort of like we are at the end of the 3rd quarter of a game and the score is tied. Too soon to tell. So far it is OK. This year is key though

too soon too tell.. we are in year 3 of the "3 year plan." granted.. im not ready too annoit Legend the savior of this Franchise.. and why the :censored: he would want too leave after this offseason is anyones guess.

I hope Legend stays around for another 3 years and finishes the job. The new three year plan should be too contend.. and not just contend for a small window like the celts with kg, pp, ray; contend like the Thunder likely will for over a decade.

as far as this 3 year plan Bird implemented, i agree, need too see what he does in FA, but to be in the position we are today with the young players and cap space, i believe Bird has got the Franchise moving in the right direction.

notque
07-05-2011, 03:25 PM
The 3 year Plan was unquestionably a success, and the talk about still needing time to decide says more about the unrealistic expectations of the fan base than the actual 3 year plan.

Rarely has a rebuild job gone so well. From such a terrible starting point. It's been a masterful rebuild, taking advantage of every bit of luck that has fallen our way.

PacersPride
07-05-2011, 03:27 PM
Yeah, getting cap space is a key element of the 3 year plan. So what we do with it is going to be pretty important.

So far, the early returns aren't bad. Arguably we got Collison and Hill in part because of cap space. Collison from absorbing Posey's contract and Hill because the Spurs think they couldn't afford to re-sign him while we certainly could. Though obviously the picks are the more important part of the Hill trade.

True.. but what im discussing here is the overall body of work. During Birds tenure here i cannot say there is one trade we have got taken on. In fact, we have overall got the better end of deals imo.

The draft picks chosen, all solid players, anyone look back at those drafts and we can probably see a ton of misses by other GM's, where Bird might have not taken the best player, he did take solid role players and can contribute on a championship team.

I like that Bird was patient, did not accept bad trades, whereas another GM in here on a 3 year term may have made riskier investments and trades which coulda only set this Franchise back farther.

Outstanding 3 years of work by Legend. I have no doubts we are on the way too contending for a championship. I say that fully aware of the superteams in the East.

The new CBA probably should be included in the 3 year plan; because im assuming this may be a primary reason Bird went this route.. maybe it is too early too say.

However, overall i would say the 3 year plan has been a success.

troyc11a
07-05-2011, 03:41 PM
The 3 year Plan was unquestionably a success, and the talk about still needing time to decide says more about the unrealistic expectations of the fan base than the actual 3 year plan.

Rarely has a rebuild job gone so well. From such a terrible starting point. It's been a masterful rebuild, taking advantage of every bit of luck that has fallen our way.

Yea, there really shoulnt be much thought left concerning this issue. If someone still needs time to figure it out they were never going to give Bird props anyway.
The only rebuild that I can think of that went better than this one was right after the 2000 Finals. There the veteran team was dismantled and Isiah still got us in the playoffs. I say it was better only because the team was completely overhauled and still never missed the playoffs. That was a truely remarkable feat by Donnie and Isiah.
If this team goes out and competes for the ECF, then this 3-year play could be better. Right now though, its been very good. I couldnt be happier as a Pacer fan (realistically that is).

Kegboy
07-05-2011, 03:42 PM
Wish there were more choices.

If you put a gun to my head and make me choose, I guess I'd say success. We drafted well, made it back to the playoffs and had a good showing. But now that the happy joy feelings of that have faded, I'm still not happy that the plan pretty much was "wait 3 years and hope for the best." If Bird had kept O'Brien for just a couple weeks longer, or Milwaukee and Charlotte hadn't completely flamed out, we wouldn't have made the playoffs. Neither of those had anything to do with the "plan".

Still, DC was a great trade, and I'm sure there were stupid trades we could have made but didn't. The franchise is in a better position now than where we were 3 years ago, so you take it.

Lastly, as has been mentioned, the new CBA could really **** us. I don't think it'll happen, but it's entirely possible that there will be new exceptions and Allan Houston rules and whatnot that make all the sacrifices we made to get into this position pointless.

Hicks
07-05-2011, 03:57 PM
The 3 year plan was to get us to this point, not make us instant title contenders. It's a success for what it was, but it was only "a plan" and not "the plan" if "the plan" is being in the NBA Finals.

That's the extra reason this lockout sucks. We should be witnesses the end of that plan and the dawn of the next one RIGHT NOW. :sigh:

Instead.... more waiting.

As far as I can tell, there's only one more plan: Ascend to the top of the league, or as close as we can get. That will probably take a 2-4 years.

Isaac
07-05-2011, 05:08 PM
Success, we made the playoffs and have plenty of young talent. Larry has done all he can.

On another note for the OP... http://www.wikihow.com/Use-%22Too%22-and-%22To%22-Correctly

Mikey85
07-05-2011, 05:41 PM
Wish there were more choices.

If Bird had kept O'Brien for just a couple weeks longer, or Milwaukee and Charlotte hadn't completely flamed out, we wouldn't have made the playoffs. Neither of those had anything to do with the "plan".


Maybe not those teams flaming out, but I would be willing to bet that the overall state of the EC had part to do with it. It's been real top heavy for some time now.

I don't want to take away from the plan either...I haven't been this optimistic about the pacers since before the night in Det.

Hoop
07-05-2011, 05:41 PM
Bird has did a pretty good job IMO, the 3 year plan has been a success for the most part. We now have gotten rid of the horrible contracts, infused the team with good young talent and made the playoffs. No team is perfect with draft picks or trades, but I think Bird has done well with what he has had to work with.

The biggest mistake Bird made, besides hiring him in the first place, was to wait way to long to get rid of JOB. Maybe Bird is just very loyal and very stubborn, but everyone could see fairly early it was not working and most likely never would. We would not be where we are right now had Bird not finally fired him.

No one could have guessed how successful Vogel would do in such a short time, just glad they rolled the dice and tried something different. The gloom and doom could still be hanging over this franchise if he had not.

Most important, for the first time in a long time we have a light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train coming at us. We actually have a legit future and even people outside of Indy are looking at our team in a positive light.

PaceBalls
07-05-2011, 05:53 PM
We should know in about three years or so. Remember the three year plan is not THE plan it is just A plan. :p

We are in a good position with cap space and we have some really good young players.

LA_Confidential
07-05-2011, 07:10 PM
Im not planning on changing my avatar any time soon.

spreedom
07-05-2011, 08:06 PM
The verdict can't be in yet... all we've done is get under the cap. How successful the plan is will depend what players we bring in and how well we're able to implement them into our gameplan.

Eleazar
07-05-2011, 08:44 PM
Depends on what exactly the three year plan was. If it was to get out of salary cap hell, and put this team in a position to succeed in the near future than it is an absolute success. If it was to have a team that will constantly compete for the playoffs then it is too early to tell.

crunk-juice
07-05-2011, 10:52 PM
i dont see how anyone could vote for anything other than "Give it more time"

spreedom
07-05-2011, 11:02 PM
I also don't understand how he gets a C-. Seems like a slightly trollish stance to take IYAM.

spreedom
07-05-2011, 11:04 PM
Im not planning on changing my avatar any time soon.

http://screencrave.frsucrave.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Picture-191.jpg


I sure hope not.... because I LOVE IT WHEN A PLAN COMES TOGETHER.

A.B.Hollywood
07-05-2011, 11:08 PM
Yea, there really shoulnt be much thought left concerning this issue. If someone still needs time to figure it out they were never going to give Bird props anyway.


I think he has done everything right UNTIL now. For me its not just having 3 years to get us in a better situation its what we did with that situation. I'm not saying make us a contender. But lets say that we blow all of our money on max deal for Nene at 16+million a season then I'd actually say this is a c- at best. But if we use our new financial freedom wisely, well... the skies the limit and Bird and Moorway did a masterful job.

Trophy
07-05-2011, 11:17 PM
Bird definitely gets a passing grade in my book.

We're definitely heading in the right direction. We have so many positives between the solid young core and the cap space, which hopefully the lockout/new CBA really does help in our favor and we can actively go out and sign Deron Williams considering not many teams will be able to sign big FAs. Really talking about the Lakers, Knicks, etc. Possibly we'll be in a battle with the Nets if they are unable to re-sign him.

Anyway. At the 3 year point, Bird gave us fans and Indy something to look forward to. Good young players with potential and a ton of cap space.

Finishing 8 games below .500 isn't something to be proud of and making the playoffs by default, but what we did in the playoffs was something to be proud of.

Like I said before, Bird will get a passing grade by me. That's of course subject to change depending on who we get with this cap space and how good we'll be.

Wage
07-05-2011, 11:17 PM
We are significantly better off than we were 3 years ago, and that is good enough for me right now.

Sollozzo
07-05-2011, 11:38 PM
But now that the happy joy feelings of that have faded, I'm still not happy that the plan pretty much was "wait 3 years and hope for the best."



But what other option did we have? I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think there was any other option other than doing what we did.

Look at 2008 draft to present. We got a pretty good deal for our only major asset (JO). We swung a decent deal with Portland. But what else was there to do from that point on? As far as everyone else in the NBA was concerned, our roster was a collective pile of expensive crap. No one wanted Dunleavy. No one wanted Murphy until he was going into the final year of his deal. No one wanted TJ Ford these past few years (I know Bird brought Ford here, but he was a small part of an overall good deal). No one was going to give us anything for Tins when they knew we were stuck with him. No team wanted wanted any of that crap. The only assets we did have (Granger, Hibbert) were guys we actually wanted to keep for the future.

We went with the "wait three years and hope for the best" option because that's really the only choice we had. Not even Houdini could make something out of nothing if all he had was a bunch of overpaid crappy players. All Bird could really do was draft well and wait to get to the point we are now. The three year plan was never about becoming a legit contender after three years. It was about building a solid foundation that you could build on in the following years, and I think everyone can agree that we've done that.

Bird seems to do well whenever he has assets. He got a good deal for JO. He got an A+ deal for Murphy. He turned a 15th pick in a pitiful draft and second rounder into George Hill, a guy that was a big contributor on the team with the best record in the league. He seems to do well when he has stuff to work with. I think you would be hard-pressed to find many GM's who could have done a "better" job while having so little to work with.

Bird did all he could. You draft decent. You wait for the contracts of the overpaid players to expire. You make a decent trade here and there (Collison, Hill). Then, you have a decent young core with a lot of financial flexibility. I demand to know what GM could have done a drastically better job than Bird at this point.

Hicks
07-06-2011, 12:11 AM
I've deleted some posts (and responses to them) just to clean things up a bit and also I want to remind people that it's okay to disagree with someone's comments, but the focus needs to be on the message instead of shooting the messenger. General respect and civility is the goal here.

Day-V
07-06-2011, 12:29 AM
We actually have a bright future to look forward to right now. The words "bright" and "future" were NOT in our collective vocabulary 3 years ago.


Bird for 3. Boom Baby.

ballism
07-06-2011, 08:03 AM
I think we can't give it a verdict untill we know what free agents / trades we make. Since that's the key for ultimate success of this plan.
Making a verdict right now is like making a verdict on Walsh in NY before last summer.
There's promise, but the plan is not about getting promise, it's about building a perenial playoff contender.

Sparhawk
07-06-2011, 09:31 AM
I'll go with the C-, but didn't really agree with any of the options. Bird gets a C+. He's been patient and didn't take on anymore bad contracts. That's good. I'd say he's drafted extremely well given where we draft each year.

I blame JOB and his late season ending runs that took us from getting a better pick. I think that set us back a little bit. Not saying we should have tanked, but it never made sense how we could all of the sudden win so many games when we struggled the whole year. Either that or other teams were tanking/resting starters while we continued to play at the same level.

I'd say Bird and Moorway are not very good at trades. Trading Murphy for Collison was great, but I can't get over the botched OJ trade and not being able to move any more expiring contracts.

I will say this, if the new CBA helps teams get out from bad contracts, I'll be sooooooooooooo pissed off.

Justin Tyme
07-06-2011, 11:18 AM
I think he has done everything right UNTIL now.


Bird has done everything right UNTIL now? Just remember that includes the whole O'Brien fiasco.

Justin Tyme
07-06-2011, 11:31 AM
Bird definitely gets a passing grade in my book.



I understand your comment, but just remember a D- is a passing grade.

Sandman21
07-06-2011, 03:46 PM
I'd say Bird and Moorway are not very good at trades. Trading Murphy for Collison was great, but I can't get over the botched OJ trade and not being able to move any more expiring contracts.

How can you blame Bird and Morway for Memphis and/or New Orleans screwing up the deal?

Richard_Skull
07-06-2011, 04:42 PM
Well, I think the 3 year plan hasn't expired yet. Meaning, I think you have to wait until Free Agency to happen, which may be awhile. Basically, right now, I view it as the 2.8 years plan until FA. And until then, I'll reserve my judgement.

Sollozzo
07-06-2011, 04:55 PM
To those who gave him a C-, what do you think he could have done better? If you're going to give him that low of a grade then surely you have some specifics in mind.

Could he have drafted better? I think it's a general consensus around here that he has drafted decent to good since taking over for good in 08.

What trades could he have made that he didn't? Sorry, but no NBA teams want expensive crap like Ford, Dunleavy, or Murphy until they are expiring deals, and even then it's tough. And he aced the Murphy trade. No one was going to give us anything for Tinsley when they knew we were stuck with him.

Seriously, how could we have traded better? You'd be hard pressed to find a team that would give you a better deal for JO than the one we got. I don't think we could have found anything better than Collison for Murphy.

We traded the 15th pick in a poor draft and a second rounder for a guy who was a big contributor to the team with the best record in the NBA, a guy who can help us immediately. What more could he have done? We aren't going to get some stud starting 4 for the 15th pick in this pitiful draft. The Hill trade was an excellent one.

We made the playoffs. Those of you who gave a C-, what were your expectations? Were you honestly expecting this man to magically make this team a top 5 team in the East when he had barely any assets? All he could do was draft well, make a trade here and there, and wait for the contracts to expire. No we are in a solid position to build for the future.

You have to have assets in this league to make things happen. The assets we did have (Granger, Hibbert) were guys we actually wanted to keep. The guys weighing us down were overpriced junk that teams didn't want a part of. We were finally able to rid ourselves of one only when he was an expiring.

Sparhawk
07-06-2011, 05:16 PM
To those who gave him a C-, what do you think he could have done better? If you're going to give him that low of a grade then surely you have some specifics in mind.

Could he have drafted better? I think it's a general consensus around here that he has drafted decent to good since taking over for good in 08.

What trades could he have made that he didn't? Sorry, but no NBA teams want expensive crap like Ford, Dunleavy, or Murphy until they are expiring deals, and even then it's tough. And he aced the Murphy trade. No one was going to give us anything for Tinsley when they knew we were stuck with him.

Seriously, how could we have traded better? You'd be hard pressed to find a team that would give you a better deal for JO than they one we got. I don't think we could have found anything better than Collison for Murphy.

We traded the 15th pick in a poor draft and a second rounder for a guy who was a big contributor to the team with the best record in the NBA, a guy who can help us immediately. What more could he have done? We aren't going to get some stud starting 4 for the 15th pick in this pitiful draft. The Hill trade was an excellent one.

We made the playoffs. Those of you who gave a C-, what were your expectations? Were you honestly expecting this man to magically make this team a top 5 team in the East when he had barely any assets? All he could do was draft well, make a trade here and there, and wait for the contracts to expire. No we are in a solid position to build for the future.

You have to have assets in this league to make things happen. The assets we did have (Granger, Hibbert) were guys we actually wanted to keep. The guys weighing us down were overpriced junk that teams didn't want a part of. We were finally able to rid ourselves of one only when he was an expiring.

Thanks for bringing up Tinsley. Is there any other franchise that shoots themselves in the foot more than the Pacers when it comes to absolutely ruining player value? We could have gotten something for Tinsley had they just kept playing him. Instead they banish him. They basically did the same to TJ Ford. That's just not good business.

LeeTheG7
07-06-2011, 11:25 PM
I gave bird a C- because basically all he has done is get lucky a few times in the draft. Granger, Hibbert, and George who would have guessed all three would end up being the franchise leaders I guantee Bird didn't plan it. Bird got lucky and there is a certain skill to that but for his plan to be a sucess then I would say he has to be a top 4 seed next year.

daschysta
07-07-2011, 12:27 AM
Being "consistantly lucky" in the draft is one way of saying he's a good drafter...

mattie
07-07-2011, 03:55 AM
I'll give him an A+. My reasoning is as follows:

1. He dumped all bad contracts.

2. He completely stole Paul George - (most didn't know of him, but for some reason I was alerted of who PG was prior to the draft, and I was actually afraid he wouldn't be available - I'm not saying I'm smart, I'm just saying if most of you had seen PG's video's and interviews prior to the draft, you would have been livid if we hadn't of drafted him)

3. He is now sitting in the best possible position a team could possible imagine in a rebuilding stage. We have a ton of cap space, a killer talent in PG (folks whether he turns out or not, thats the best you can hope for in a prospect, the dude has more talent in his finger tips than John Wall in his whole body), and some budding talent around him.. we Obviously have to hope everything turns out right, and honestly it could turn out wrong! But this is how you do it...

No matter what happens.. Bird could screw up everything from this point on, but that doesn't change the fact that he has operated nearly flawlessly over the last three years. You could argue that poss. he should have taken Jrue over Tyler, but even that is a question mark. He's done well. Let's hope he continues to do well.

Kegboy
07-07-2011, 07:32 AM
1. He dumped all bad contracts.

The only bad contract he "dumped" was Murphy, and even then he took the longer, but smaller bad contract of Posey in return. All the others he didn't touch until they evaporated on their own.

Heisenberg
07-07-2011, 07:46 AM
The only bad contract he "dumped" was Murphy, and even then he took the longer, but smaller bad contract of Posey in return. All the others he didn't touch until they evaporated on their own.
Jermaine.

Speed
07-07-2011, 09:07 AM
Jermaine.

Dumping bad contracts is tricky, since teams likely want to give you worse contracts back, see Ron Ron and Stephen Jackson. Or you have the Tinsley nightmare that I've mostly repressed until this moment.

Side Note Heisenberg: Breaking Bad starts a new season 7/17, I'm sure you know!

Kegboy
07-07-2011, 12:17 PM
Jermaine.

True, but again, we got a smaller, longer bad contract in Ford, whom, depending on who ask, we completely wasted or was himself a complete waste.

Sollozzo
07-07-2011, 12:23 PM
True, but again, we got a smaller, longer bad contract in Ford, whom, depending on who ask, we completely wasted or was himself a complete waste.

It t would have been impossible to trade Jermaine (an awful contract) without getting another bad contract in return. As expensive as Jermaine was, we were obviously going to have to take on a lot of salary in return. And given the condition Jermaine was in, we weren't going to get a "good" expensive player. So it was inevitable that we were going to get stuck with a mediocre player with a lousy contract. There was really no way around it.

We got a pick (that clearly worked out well for us), an expiring contract in Rasho, and a bad contract in Ford. So 2/3 worked heavily in our favor.

Really, I'm just glad that we got one bad contract for him. Could have been worse.

vnzla81
07-07-2011, 01:00 PM
It t would have been impossible to trade Jermaine (an awful contract) without getting another bad contract in return. As expensive as Jermaine was, we were obviously going to have to take on a lot of salary in return. And given the condition Jermaine was in, we weren't going to get a "good" expensive player. So it was inevitable that we were going to get stuck with a mediocre player with a lousy contract. There was really no way around it.

We got a pick (that clearly worked out well for us), an expiring contract in Rasho, and a bad contract in Ford. So 2/3 worked heavily in our favor.

Really, I'm just glad that we got one bad contract for him. Could have been worse.

It wasn't that hard for Toronto to trade him few months later, in fact that expiring was more valuable than any of the expiring we had this year because his contract expired in 2010.

Note: the only thing I'm glad we got from that trade is Roy.

Hicks
07-07-2011, 03:15 PM
We got Roy Hibbert, we got a big 2009 expiring contract (which isn't being mentioned enough), and then we also had TJ's 2011 contract, which, at the time, wasn't viewed as dead-weight, either. I'm glad we got that instead of Shawn Marion.

ksuttonjr76
07-07-2011, 04:10 PM
True, but again, we got a smaller, longer bad contract in Ford, whom, depending on who ask, we completely wasted or was himself a complete waste.

For the record, I thought TJ Ford was a great pickup at the time of the trade. Personally, I firmly believe that JOB's offensive schemes were not PG friendly. I wouldn't have been surprised if Chris Paul and Deron Williams would have struggled under JOB.

Sollozzo
07-07-2011, 04:36 PM
It wasn't that hard for Toronto to trade him few months later, in fact that expiring was more valuable than any of the expiring we had this year because his contract expired in 2010.

Note: the only thing I'm glad we got from that trade is Roy.



They got Shawn Marion for him. Wow. Granted, they got Marion purely because he was an expiring that year. So they basically just turned JO into cap space, which was OK for them I guess. We OTOH turned JO into our starting Center for years to come. Might not be the best center in the world, but he has the potential to be very solid for a long time.

I'd rather do the deal we did than the Marion deal.

Those that gave him a C-, you're going to have to show me more than "he could have traded JO for Shawn Marion if he only waited 7 months" to prove that he's deserves such a poor grade. I'm still not seeing convincing specifics.

Anyone, tell me what team would have given us anything for the garbage that is Dunleavly, Murphy, and TJ Ford? Most teams aren't in the business of taking on other team's expensive crap.