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View Full Version : So... is today the day we learn Frank is back?



Hicks
06-30-2011, 12:15 AM
Because if not.... when the hell do we get this done? I'm not sure we actually can hire him starting on July 1st, at least until the lockout is over, right?

daschysta
06-30-2011, 12:25 AM
I'm pretty sure you can hire coaches in the mean time. They aren't part of the players union.

ECKrueger
06-30-2011, 12:33 AM
:pray:

pacer4ever
06-30-2011, 12:43 AM
i said this before hand that i though we weren't gonna hire a coach till the lockout is over. It might actually be smart because than Frank and the players can have practices together during the lockout.

Pacerfan
06-30-2011, 12:48 AM
i said this before hand that i though we weren't gonna hire a coach till the lockout is over. It might actually be smart because than Frank and the players can have practices together during the lockout.

Wow, never thought of it that way. That would be awesome...jump start on the rest of the NBA. But would Frank do that for free? I guess he would basically be coaching to get the Head Coach spot so that's a pretty good reward :confused:

pacer4ever
06-30-2011, 12:51 AM
Wow, never thought of it that way. That would be awesome...jump start on the rest of the NBA. But would Frank do that for free? I guess he would basically be coaching to get the Head Coach spot so that's a pretty good reward :confused:

Basically behind close doors tell him the job is his once the season starts. Then give him a few 100k signing bonus if the lockout lasts a long time or just give him more money than he would of got.

wintermute
06-30-2011, 01:09 AM
i said this before hand that i though we weren't gonna hire a coach till the lockout is over. It might actually be smart because than Frank and the players can have practices together during the lockout.

I don't think that would work. Vogel is still interim head coach isn't he? And thus an employee of the Pacers.

In any event, the NBA won't take kindly to such informal arrangements.

Pacerfan
06-30-2011, 01:16 AM
I don't think that would work. Vogel is still interim head coach isn't he? And thus an employee of the Pacers.

In any event, the NBA won't take kindly to such informal arrangements.

No, actually his contract will end with all the other contracts. Same time the lockout starts I'm guessing? And he's technically not an employee of the Pacers this summer after that until he signs the contract. I really hope this is possible. This would help the young guys out a lot.

El Pacero
06-30-2011, 01:19 AM
What if Vogel is not hired yet so he can be our coach during lockout practices? Remember when Pacers practiced bunches last lockout?

http://twitter.com/#!/ElPacero/status/84353664159973376

It's a very interesting thought at least.

ndcoltsnpacers
06-30-2011, 01:25 AM
Ahhh I see. And Brian Shaw isn't actually the associate head coach yet either is he? Well played Bird.

pacer4ever
06-30-2011, 01:26 AM
I don't think that would work. Vogel is still interim head coach isn't he? And thus an employee of the Pacers.

In any event, the NBA won't take kindly to such informal arrangements.

no every coaches contract was up this year including Vogels

Pacerfan
06-30-2011, 01:30 AM
I'm sure Vogel would be all for it if he's getting paid more later so that he has time to put his whole system into place. I would hope the players would all be for it as well... I really think this playoff run has lit a fire under our core guys and they would welcome the opportunity. As long as there is nothing illegal about it I am all for it.

Daniel33
06-30-2011, 02:44 AM
My understanding of lockout indicates that players do not have an agreement with the owners so they are not allowed to use the practice facilities. That means no practices at conseco until the lockout is over. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

pacer4ever
06-30-2011, 02:52 AM
My understanding of lockout indicates that players do not have an agreement with the owners so they are not allowed to use the practice facilities. That means no practices at conseco until the lockout is over. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

yes that is true but during the last lockout they practiced at Butler. I mean finding a gym will not be a issue lol.

CableKC
06-30-2011, 04:33 AM
Because if not.... when the hell do we get this done? I'm not sure we actually can hire him starting on July 1st, at least until the lockout is over, right?
I will say the same thing that someone said when the TWolves announce that they are planning to part ways with Kurt Rambis....the Pacers shouldn't be taking this long to decide whether to hire or fire Vogel....it's simply dis-respectful to him as a Coach and a person to pull him along this long without telling him yes or no.

If the FO pretty much gave him assurances that he will be hired ( hence all the work that he's been going through to hire Shaw ), then why not simply announce it?

As you aluded to...what's taking them so long?

ilive4sports
06-30-2011, 05:41 AM
I'm pretty sure that Vogel can be hired during the lock out as its between the players and owners, coaches are immune to it.

Why haven't they announced it? Who knows. But if it is because of him being able to communicate and run practices, that would be very, very savvy.

Speed
06-30-2011, 07:28 AM
If its not announced today, he won't be able to talk about the players publically, right? Aren't they in a shut down mode if its post lock out?

KnicksRGarbage
06-30-2011, 07:44 AM
As I'm sure most of you have seen by now, according to Wells and Hicks Twitter exchange they can hire him whenever they want to.


@HicksPD they can name him coach any time

http://twitter.com/#!/MikeWellsNBA/status/86333975890632704

troyc11a
06-30-2011, 08:25 AM
I'm pretty sure that Vogel can be hired during the lock out as its between the players and owners, coaches are immune to it.

Why haven't they announced it? Who knows. But if it is because of him being able to communicate and run practices, that would be very, very savvy.

If I were Simon I would not "officially" announce it either. That way I am not stuck paying a coach during the lockout.

SMosley21
06-30-2011, 08:31 AM
Are some of you not reading the rest of the posts here?

They haven't officially hired him so that he can still communicate with the players and organized practices, because as of midnight tonight Frank Vogel isn't under contract with the Pacers. Seems very simple to me.

BRushWithDeath
06-30-2011, 08:37 AM
If you guys really think there will be team practices led by coaches during the lockout, well, you've lost your *** damned minds.

DrFife
06-30-2011, 08:39 AM
I still think there's huge marketing potential for the city in highlighting clean-cut good guys Frank and Brad (Stevens) ... and perhaps linking the two. So how cool would it be to see tape of Brad this fall watching his new Butler crew at Hinkle, and sheepishly admitting, "Yeah, we're looking pretty sharp for this early in the year. We're very thankful that some of the Indiana Pacers made themselves available for some friendly competition. Every kid in America who's gotten beaten to a pulp on the court by his big brother and now is tougher for it knows what I'm talkin' about."

$$$ cha-ching $$$

troyc11a
06-30-2011, 08:44 AM
Are some of you not reading the rest of the posts here?

They haven't officially hired him so that he can still communicate with the players and organized practices, because as of midnight tonight Frank Vogel isn't under contract with the Pacers. Seems very simple to me.

Even though that sounds like a good idea. When trying to figure out moves made by rich people = follow the money. Its always about the money. Frank is not under contract therefore he is not getting paid. I would be surprised to see him get hired before the end of the lockout. Why would a team that is losing money every year want to pay a coach to stay home?

Unclebuck
06-30-2011, 08:47 AM
i said this before hand that i though we weren't gonna hire a coach till the lockout is over. It might actually be smart because than Frank and the players can have practices together during the lockout.



No way the NBA lets us get away with that. No way.

Unclebuck
06-30-2011, 08:52 AM
Are some of you not reading the rest of the posts here?

They haven't officially hired him so that he can still communicate with the players and organized practices, because as of midnight tonight Frank Vogel isn't under contract with the Pacers. Seems very simple to me.


So what is to stop every other team from firing their current coach so they too can practice with their coach. Wow that sounds crazy, about as crazy as thinking that the pacers are not signing Vogel so he can conduct practices with the team.

I would expect Frank to be offically hired probably tomorrow

Mackey_Rose
06-30-2011, 08:59 AM
No way the NBA lets us get away with that. No way.

That isn't even close the biggest hurdle. The players would never agree to that in a million years. Never.

Sure, these guys are probably pretty hungry to get better, both individually and as a team. But do you really think they are hungry enough to give a giant finger to their union while also practicing for free? Get the **** out of here.

Ridiculous.

Unclebuck
06-30-2011, 09:14 AM
That isn't even close the biggest hurdle. The players would never agree to that in a million years. Never.

Sure, these guys are probably pretty hungry to get better, both individually and as a team. But do you really think they are hungry enough to give a giant finger to their union while also practicing for free? Get the **** out of here.

Ridiculous.


Agreed.

Plus no way Vogel agrees to do that, he is a young guy who hopes to have many years coahcing in the NBA, doing something like as suggested in this thread would hurt his chances of ever coaching an NBA team again

QuickRelease
06-30-2011, 09:30 AM
Agreed.

Plus no way Vogel agrees to do that, he is a young guy who hopes to have many years coahcing in the NBA, doing something like as suggested in this thread would hurt his chances of ever coaching an NBA team again
How so? :whoknows:

Psyren
06-30-2011, 09:59 AM
How so? :whoknows:

That's what I'm wondering.

I think the only real issue would be getting the players to agree to do the workouts.

I'm not sure what power the NBA has if the players choose to workout with a guy who technically, if he's not hired, isn't a part of the organization.

If the players agree to it, as well as Frank, I don't see how the NBA can get around that. I don't know of anything that says players can't work out with people who aren't a part of the organization (technically speaking).

Unclebuck
06-30-2011, 10:11 AM
How so? :whoknows:


It would make Vogel look sneaky and IMO someone who has low integrity. If he is so willing to so obviously go around the rules to coach his team that would make other teams leery of hiring him, like what else would he be willing to do. At the very least it would cast him in a very bad light. It just would not be the right thing to do.

Frank would never even consider doing something like this, no coach who values his job would.

In the end the owners OK the hiring of their coach and do you think any owner would look highly on a potential coach who tried to coach his team during a lockout? No. Frank would more or less be blackballed.

In these lockouts the coaches are somewhat caught in the middle and the last thing they want to do is be seen as taking sides. A coach needs both the ownership/management and the players to trust and respect him

Ownagedood
06-30-2011, 10:14 AM
yes that is true but during the last lockout they practiced at Butler. I mean finding a gym will not be a issue lol.

They can come on down to my rec center and ill practice with them. :D

Fiesty Foster can't come.. He fouls hard.

graphic-er
06-30-2011, 10:17 AM
It would make Vogel look sneaky and IMO someone who has low integrity. If he is so willing to so obviously go around the rules to coach his team that would make other teams leery of hiring him, like what else would he be willing to do. At the very least it would cast him in a very bad light. It just would not be the right thing to do.

Frank would never even consider doing something like this, no coach who values his job would.

In the end the owners OK the hiring of their coach and do you think any owner would look highly on a potential coach who tried to coach his team during a lockout? No. Frank would more or less be blackballed

Why would it not show teams that Frank is committed to winning? Why would it not show teams that Frank is a leader, getting Millionaires to work for free would be quite an accomplishment.

Unclebuck
06-30-2011, 10:19 AM
Why would it not show teams that Frank is committed to winning? Why would it not show teams that Frank is a leader, getting Millionaires to work for free would be quite an accomplishment.


So you think Herb Simon would appreciate it? Would the other owners appreciate it?

BillS
06-30-2011, 10:23 AM
That isn't even close the biggest hurdle. The players would never agree to that in a million years. Never.

Sure, these guys are probably pretty hungry to get better, both individually and as a team. But do you really think they are hungry enough to give a giant finger to their union while also practicing for free? Get the **** out of here.

Ridiculous.

Well, the players practiced for free the last lockout, so that portion of it isn't so far-fetched.

Using the coach for practice under a technicality, though - much as I'd love to seem them do it, I think it would be used in a court situation by the Union to end the lockout.

Now, remember practice isn't the only thing, it is ANY CONTACT AT ALL by team employees with the players. I COULD imagine Vogel being left unhired and therefore being allowed to talk to the players - maybe get some status reports and give some things for them to work on. Not something that would give enough of an advantage for other teams to try the drastic measure of firing their coaches to match it (which would be silly as well, considering once a coach is fired under contract he still gets paid AND can negotiate a better contract or move on - not a chance most teams would want to take), but something valid to consider.

Mackey_Rose
06-30-2011, 10:56 AM
Well, the players practiced for free the last lockout, so that portion of it isn't so far-fetched.

Using the coach for practice under a technicality, though - much as I'd love to seem them do it, I think it would be used in a court situation by the Union to end the lockout.

Now, remember practice isn't the only thing, it is ANY CONTACT AT ALL by team employees with the players. I COULD imagine Vogel being left unhired and therefore being allowed to talk to the players - maybe get some status reports and give some things for them to work on. Not something that would give enough of an advantage for other teams to try the drastic measure of firing their coaches to match it (which would be silly as well, considering once a coach is fired under contract he still gets paid AND can negotiate a better contract or move on - not a chance most teams would want to take), but something valid to consider.

It is nothing valid to consider. How did they hold a team practice during the last lockout if they weren't allowed to have any contact with team employees?

There is a big difference between a bunch of players (or even all 15) getting together for a run, and a coach holding a psuedo-sanctioned practice while locked out. I'm not saying that just because they are locked out and not being paid, that the players will not workout. That isn't the case. I'm sure you'll read many stories about groups of players getting together for a workout or an open-gym type of setting throughout the course of the lockout. In the end, they do need to look out for their own personal interests, and keeping in good shape and ready to go at anytime is a big part of that. But team practices run by a coaching staff (actually employed or not) will certainly not happen.

Not only would the players be acting in defiance of their own union, the coaching staff would be acting in complete defiance of the ownership who signs (or in Vogel's case, will eventually sign) their checks. It will not happen. End this nonsense.

Unclebuck
06-30-2011, 10:59 AM
How many players actually practiced together back in 1998? and how many practices did they actually have?

Justin Tyme
06-30-2011, 11:19 AM
How many players actually practiced together back in 1998? and how many practices did they actually have?


Ask Reggie, didn't he organize and help run the practices?

Brad8888
06-30-2011, 11:22 AM
I could be completely wrong about this, but...

IIRC, during the last lockout the players took it upon themselves to get together for the practice sessions so they could be a little closer to actual game shape towards the end of the lockout, knowing that there would be little time to have a camp or scrimmages. I don't remember any coaches being involved. I remember being happy to hear that the players were being proactive and I felt like they really wanted to get a head start knowing that they had one of the best teams that year.

For those who may have followed more closely / have a better memory of that time than I might, was any of the coaching staff involved in those practices or not?

All in all, I still think the move to not name Vogel as head coach, while naming Shaw "Associate" head coach (not "assistant" coach) is borne of finances and negotiations. Shaw could simply have the "associate" dropped from his title and be installed as head coach if Vogel doesn't fall in line. Vogel's marketability to other franchises has dropped due to most other teams having already hired their head coaches. So, to the Pacers' way of thinking, they are prepared if Vogel leaves (notice that no other "assistant" coaches have been hired), but are equally ready if Vogel stays on at the Pacers' terms, which are likely pretty cheap. Shaw was hired so he wouldn't be able to get away, and was attracted by the possibility of being the head coach of a very attractive franchise, whether it be in the near future if Vogel is not hired, or later if Vogel needs replaced due to lower than expected results. Shaw must have been willing to take the chance in my opinion.

Now, also in my opinion, the Pacers really have no motivation to hire Vogel any time soon and waste money with no cash flow on the horizon when it is likely that Vogel will continue silently performing his mental preparation and film watching on his own because he loves basketball and he cares about the franchise.

A win-win situation for the Pacers again, though a rather hard nosed tactic by the front office with respect to Vogel's ongoing "interim" status. But, business is business, and this is indicative of a tightly run ship IMO.

BPump33
06-30-2011, 11:23 AM
The Pacers haven't actually named Shaw, have they? I thought it was just Wells on Twitter.

BillS
06-30-2011, 11:24 AM
How many players actually practiced together back in 1998? and how many practices did they actually have?


Ask Reggie, didn't he organize and help run the practices?

That's what I remember, that the players organized the practices themselves and used facilities at Butler. I think I remember that before the lockout they were given some things to work on, but the difference was that they were all pretty solid veterans at that point and knew what their offensive and defensive systems were going to be going in. They were complete practices, not just joint workouts or scrimmages.

I don't remember how many players were in the practices, but I seem to remember that we had the largest number of players in the league working together through the lockout, which is why 99 was supposed to be our year until they started believing they were entitled to it and didn't have to actually earn it (my opinion as to why they didn't seem very hungry against the Knicks until it was pretty much too late).

naptownmenace
06-30-2011, 12:05 PM
That's what I remember, that the players organized the practices themselves and used facilities at Butler. I think I remember that before the lockout they were given some things to work on, but the difference was that they were all pretty solid veterans at that point and knew what their offensive and defensive systems were going to be going in. They were complete practices, not just joint workouts or scrimmages.

I don't remember how many players were in the practices, but I seem to remember that we had the largest number of players in the league working together through the lockout, which is why 99 was supposed to be our year until they started believing they were entitled to it and didn't have to actually earn it (my opinion as to why they didn't seem very hungry against the Knicks until it was pretty much too late).

I remember those stories and the media's coverage of their scrimmages at Butler.

I'm pretty sure that Shawn Kemp wasn't involved in many scrimmages during the lockout. Dude put on 30 lbs, conceived a few babies by a few women, and got addicted to booze and cocaine during the lockout.

Let's hope that the players (especially all of the Pacers players) don't view the lockout as a prolonged vacation. It's just more time to workout and perfect your craft.

Speed
06-30-2011, 12:39 PM
Maybe they are waiting for Bickerstaff to be out of his contract with Kahn in Minnesota, so they can announce the full staff, all at once. Another classy move by Kahn, btw, not letting Bickerstaff talk to other teams.

SMosley21
06-30-2011, 01:18 PM
So what is to stop every other team from firing their current coach so they too can practice with their coach. Wow that sounds crazy, about as crazy as thinking that the pacers are not signing Vogel so he can conduct practices with the team.

I would expect Frank to be offically hired probably tomorrow

Because I'm sure that's not quite legal by the NBA's standards. Frank Vogel effectively does not have a job with the Pacers at midnight tonight because his contract runs out. If he wanted to communicate with the players and try to organize workouts it would be completely legal and no one could really bat an eyelash about it. I can't imagine the league would look too kindly on a team firing a coach and then re-hiring after the lockout was over.

graphic-er
06-30-2011, 01:18 PM
Either way, I think Bird and the Pacers have been raked over the coals on this so far. It was pretty clear that they weren't looking to hire anyone else, and that Simon has basically closed the purse strings for the time being.

Some people have said things along the line of why pay a coach during a lock out when he isnt able to coach or talk to the players. Well the only other team doing the same thing we are doing is Minnesota, infact they just fired their coach so they can say that they are actually looking. What great company we keep. Its just not very professional of the organization. Saying its just business doesn't make it okay. There were a handful of teams this year who hired new coaches and coaching staff, but they didn't have to apparently.

Bird is looking like a 1 year seat warmer at this point, and we are not looking like a 1st class organization.

OakMoses
06-30-2011, 01:32 PM
As you aluded to...what's taking them so long?


I'd guess it's one of two things: 1. Vogel has been told he's the guy but that h's not getting hired until after the lockout or Bird does not want to hire Vogel and he's either trying to find someone better on the sly or hoping Vogel will get pissed and go away.

The first is understandable, the second is stupid. If Bird doesn't want Vogel then he should get rid of him.
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pacersgroningen
06-30-2011, 01:50 PM
Let's say for instance, two of the young guys really enjoyed Frank last season. They give him a call and ask if he wants to put them through some individual drills? Simply because they enjoyed their time with him last season and they feel he can really help them? Would such a thing also cast a bad light on Vogel?

MTM
06-30-2011, 04:06 PM
How many players actually practiced together back in 1998? and how many practices did they actually have?

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2011/03/02/188629.htm

[QUOTE]During the NBA’s six-month lockout in 1998-99, Reggie Miller and Mark Jackson rounded up their Indiana Pacers teammates for regular workouts at a health club on the city’s west side. The Pacers had almost perfect attendance that fall and winter and many thought the extra workouts would give Indiana a major advantage when the season resumed.

The Pacers didn’t make the Finals that season. They did the next year.[QUOTE]