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View Full Version : Point Guard Controvery: Maybe There Isn't One



BBQ
06-24-2011, 08:34 PM
I'd like to respectfully submit a visual comparison of Collison and Hill. This is in response to what I have perceived as a growing sentiment on the forum that George Hill would be better suited to start at point guard. I'd like to make a couple of arguments in Collison's favor.

1. Collison is the better player right now.
You can see below that Collison leads Hill in 12 of the 18 categories including surprisingly rebounds and steals. Collison is also quicker, has better vision and is a better passer than Hill. Collison is better able to break down defenses by getting in to the lane. While Hill's height and length make him a better defender, that alone does not make him a starting point guard.

2. Collison has more potential to be a better player in the future.
Collison is a little over 1 year younger then Hill, and has 1 year less experience in the NBA, but has already accomplished more than Hill both in career averages and in his impressive stint as the starter in New Orleans. Collison's accomplishments shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum either. Hill has had the benefit of stability, being taught the philosophy of the Spurs organization and being mentored by Veterans such as Parker, Duncan and Ginobli. Collison has been on 2 teams in 2 years, having had to learn the preferencs strengths\weaknesses of 2 groups of players. He has played for 3 coaches over those 2 years, having had to take the hardest position to learn in the NBA and learn it within 3 different systems in 2 years. Collison has also played on lesser teams with lesser talent. If that doesn't do it for you, Collison had to play for Jim O'Brien.


I suspect that Collison will come out in year 3 and surprise us all. I don't imagine that there will be much of a controversy once basketball starts up again.

http://www.signandtrade.com/nba/nbaplayercompare.aspx

http://i.imgur.com/lBbOY.png

I generated these reports using this URL: http://www.signandtrade.com/nba/nbaplayercompare.aspx

I am also using Imgur to host the above image. www.imgur.com

Young
06-24-2011, 08:41 PM
I think Hill is here to be the backup.

Everything I read so far suggests that he is more of a combo guard. He can handle the ball but he is not really a playmaker. In San Antonio he was asked to defend, score, and knock down 3s. I think Collison is more of a floor general.

Hill might start one day, IDK. For the upcoming season I don't think that will be his role though.

BringJackBack
06-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Maybe I'm the only one that isn't comparing Hill and Collison.

-Hill is a guy that you can just plug in and play. Put him at the one or two and he will make things happen. He's a guy who will play 31 minutes either off the bench or he can even start at the one or two and carry a scoring load for us while providing stellar defense. He's going to be our version of a poor man's Manu Ginobli. I think he'll have a breakout year this year.

-Darren is our starting 1. He is a scoring guard, and as soon as he finds a power forward to pair with him on the pick 'n roll he will make plays and help our offense greatly. This will be his first year without a new coach. He is capable of putting up huge numbers, and he is capable of going into the crapper for a five game stretch. Once he finds consistency, he will be a much better player than he currently is. I think he'll have a better year than he had last year; he'll have more guys to make plays to and he won't disappear nearly as much as he did last year.

They're two separate guys who bring different things to the game. Hill can play two positions and he has great intangibles; DC is a scorer that plays strictly point guard who is capable of getting hot.

mattie
06-24-2011, 08:55 PM
The great thing no matter what about Hill, is he is a team player, in other words, he'll do everything he can to contribute whether he's on the bench or starting. So, if he starts over Collison? Great! That means, he has potential to be a really good point guard. If he doesn't? Great! Means we have scoring off the bench.

A.B.Hollywood
06-24-2011, 09:00 PM
I think just lokking at these stats side by side is troublesome. DC was in a system for one half of a season that greatly inflated his numbers. Not to mention it doesnt show as much to me defensively.

Is there a way to compare DC's stats second half of last year to GH's second half last year? That to me would be a much better indicator.

Either way this is very cool to see nonetheless. Thanks for posting.

Ozwalt72
06-24-2011, 09:02 PM
Hill played with both Parker and Ginobli, not to mention played a lot of 2 this year. That will change your stats up a bit. (Not that they're far off the point, necessarily)

A lot of talk in the past about players putting up good stats on bad teams, what about a player putting up solid stats on a good team?

tikitomoka
06-24-2011, 09:05 PM
why not play them side-by-side? collison's rookie stats are a little misleading due to the system he was running in New Orleans. there's no reason the rotation at the 1 and 2 guard can't be hill/collison at the 1 and hill/george/stephenson at the 2. imo there's no need for a "controversy" if they can play together.

Freddie fan
06-24-2011, 09:15 PM
I'm not saying that HIll should or will start, but I think you (BBQ) aren't giving enough consideration to the value of defense at the point guard position. Hill is considered a very good perimeter defender. Collison is considered a below average defender.

Defense, obviously, is half the game and it's particularly important at the point guard position, which too often in the Pacers' recent past has allowed opposing point guards to penetrate and break down the defense -- creating easy buckets and getting the Pacers' big men in foul trouble. This isn't something you can compare in your statistical breakdown, but it matters greatly.

Pacersalltheway10
06-24-2011, 09:19 PM
There isn't a controversy. This is great.

Collison/Hill
George/Hill
Granger/ George

Kid Minneapolis
06-24-2011, 09:19 PM
Ya, I think Collison is our starter at this point in time, but that doesn't mean Hill won't log serious minutes at the 1, depending on the defensive matchup. Hill provides a situational defensive option for us at the 1. I don't think Hill is better than Collison overall, but he's not far. He's a great option to have on the bench, and like has been said, he's capable of sliding over to the 2, spotting both Collison and George. I think he's a great 6th man and the fact he's home-grown adds to the relationship.

BBQ
06-24-2011, 09:49 PM
I think just lokking at these stats side by side is troublesome. DC was in a system for one half of a season that greatly inflated his numbers. Not to mention it doesnt show as much to me defensively.

Is there a way to compare DC's stats second half of last year to GH's second half last year? That to me would be a much better indicator.

Either way this is very cool to see nonetheless. Thanks for posting.

These stats begin the day Jim O'Brien was fired.

http://i.imgur.com/fXbeH.png

troyc11a
06-24-2011, 09:49 PM
Ya, I think Collison is our starter at this point in time, but that doesn't mean Hill won't log serious minutes at the 1, depending on the defensive matchup. Hill provides a situational defensive option for us at the 1. I don't think Hill is better than Collison overall, but he's not far. He's a great option to have on the bench, and like has been said, he's capable of sliding over to the 2, spotting both Collison and George. I think he's a great 6th man and the fact he's home-grown adds to the relationship.

Who starts is not nearly as important as who finishes. At the end of the game, I am guessing Hill and George will be in the bachcourt together. Personally, I think DC makes the ideal backup pg because he is a serious matchup problem for whoever tries to defend him and his defensive liability will not show up so much against a backup pg.

ChristianDudley
06-24-2011, 10:40 PM
-I agree that Collison is still the starter.

-I do believe Hill will spend most of his time as a backup PG, at least that is the thought right now.

-What Hill brings other than the above statement is he can also play the 2 and guard 2's as well as 1s--he's the best thing that we have right now that is even relatively a PG that can actually DEFEND other PG's--big or small.

-George Hill is now sort of like what Jarrett Jack was for us, ONLY BETTER. I am probably Jack's biggest fan ever, but I do strongly believe that Hill will immediately give us even more versatility on both ends of the court than what Jarrett provided--plus probably a better shoote... and a better playmaker possibly??

BlueNGold
06-24-2011, 11:06 PM
I'm not saying that HIll should or will start, but I think you (BBQ) aren't giving enough consideration to the value of defense at the point guard position. Hill is considered a very good perimeter defender. Collison is considered a below average defender.

Defense, obviously, is half the game and it's particularly important at the point guard position, which too often in the Pacers' recent past has allowed opposing point guards to penetrate and break down the defense -- creating easy buckets and getting the Pacers' big men in foul trouble. This isn't something you can compare in your statistical breakdown, but it matters greatly.

Good post. I think both of them are good players. Collison might have a higher ceiling but I don't think he's played quite as good at this stage of their careers considering all parts of the game. Defense is half the game and as you say PG defense is crucial...particularly looking at who took us out of the playoffs. Also, I think Hill is more well rounded and Darren's numbers are what they are because he calls his own number a lot.

In any event, Hill may not be my dream PG, but Hill is a team player folks and we are lucky to have him. I would not be surprised at all to see him on the team for many years.

Edit: ...and to point #1, no I don't think Darren was the better player last season. Stats lie folks and this is a good example. Darren has played on bad teams racking up numbers. Hill has played on great teams in a more difficult conference and contributed very respectable numbers. But the numbers mean next to nothing (see Troy Murphy). Let's watch what they do on the floor...

LeeTheG7
06-24-2011, 11:28 PM
I'm a big Collison fan but I've seen George Hill play a bunch. He wasn't one of the main options for the spurs like Collison was for the Pacers. So obviously he got less points. From what I've seen he is smarter with the ball and is a better spot up shooter then Collison. You throw defense in the mix and I won't be suprised to see George Hill starting. Remember he backed up TONY PARKER!!!!! Collison isn't that type of player George Hill will start.

Trader Joe
06-24-2011, 11:31 PM
I'm just happy we added talent DC has been nothing but professional since he got here and I don't expect it to be an issue one way or the other.

DrFife
06-24-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm glad to see some consensus on this issue. If we were entertaining the idea of Mayo being our game's-end closer, even better to have a true combo guard for such purposes, n'est ce pas?

Sookie, would you agree with the assertion that AJ Price may be kept around until mid-season to duel with Lance for back-up PG?

I've been chewing on Tbird's opinion that Larry (has stated (?) that he) prefers "pure-position" players. I also remember, however, Isaiah's "interchangeable parts" philosophy. (No groans, please.) My preference is for the starters to be rather "pure" and the primary subs to be interchangeable, thus creating a nine-man rotation. Add a "pure" PG and C, since they're the most difficult to fill, and a few developmental prospects, and you've got an ideal team structure, IMO. If Brandon Rush were (had been?) more reliable, we'd be set in the back-court; but as things stand, he and Paulie are switched. We're gettin' there!

____1____________2_____________3____________4_____ ________5
D Collison______P George______D Granger_______(TBD)________R Hibbert
_________G Hill_________B Rush_________(TBD)_______McBob?
________Lance__D Jones______(J Posey)________Hans_________Foster?
__________AJ______________________________________ ______Stanko??


EDIT: I put in the underscores to keep the columns aligned. HTML advice, please: if I do it in Excel, can I just copy/paste the cells? Do I use ??

BBQ
06-25-2011, 12:05 AM
I'm not saying that HIll should or will start, but I think you (BBQ) aren't giving enough consideration to the value of defense at the point guard position. Hill is considered a very good perimeter defender. Collison is considered a below average defender.

Defense, obviously, is half the game and it's particularly important at the point guard position, which too often in the Pacers' recent past has allowed opposing point guards to penetrate and break down the defense -- creating easy buckets and getting the Pacers' big men in foul trouble. This isn't something you can compare in your statistical breakdown, but it matters greatly.

I can see why you assumed I was undervaluing defense. I don't think that I do though, however that'll be a difficult point for me to make when I'm picking the offensive guard over the defensive one. If we need a stop, of course I'd go with Hill. But I really like the idea of making the opposing guard chase Collison all over the court 30 minutes a night.

Not necessarily a reply to your points alone: I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of Hill having produced quality numbers on a quality team and having backed up a world class point guard. In my opinion Collison did the same thing in New Orleans. I'm not sure why DC's number in New Orleans should be discredit because of the system. We could run a similar system here and see the same production, and I'm not sure just anyone could have put together those numbers just because the system was in place.

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2011, 12:10 AM
While I value the huge upgrade defensively over the very slight offensive downgrade Hill brings over Collison and thus disagree with your analysis, I appreciate that you actually made a case and tried to justify it with fact.

JohnnyUtah
06-25-2011, 12:46 AM
From someone who has watched Hill from his first summer league to every game he played with the Spurs I can say there really shouldn't be a controversy over who starts at the point.

I've only seen a handful of Pacers games with Collison and then the year before last when he was with NO. Collison is worlds better a playmaker than Hill. In fact, Hill is not a good point guard at all. That's just not a strength of his game. He's bad in running P&R's and fast breaks and he's really slow to set up the offense.

His best role is being a spark off the bench or starting at the two guard. That's why he was so valuable in SA since he flourished next to either Parker or Manu and was able to transition fairly easily to the 6th man role when called upon.

As far as his ability to defend PG's, that seems to vary. In ISO situations he's an awesome defender against 1's or 2's. But for whatever reason, when he has to defend in a screen and roll he turns into matador and is completely taken out of the play. He really needs to work on getting over screens better. Even so I'd still say he'll be a big improvement on that end of the court over Collison.

He'll be really useful at the end of games as well. I wouldn't call him a closer, but he's a clutch free throw shooter (him or Manu always shot free throws at the end of the game) and gets to the line really well (probably the second or third best on the Spurs). You'll love some of the BS fouls he gets at the end of quarters by just throwing crap up full court and getting three free throws out of it.

I'm really hoping Hill can become a better play maker and flourishes as a player in Indiana. I'm a huge fan of his and will miss watching him play for the Spurs. I'll definitely be watching a lot more Pacers games now.

Eleazar
06-25-2011, 01:22 AM
I'm glad to see some consensus on this issue. If we were entertaining the idea of Mayo being our game's-end closer, even better to have a true combo guard for such purposes, n'est ce pas?

Sookie, would you agree with the assertion that AJ Price may be kept around until mid-season to duel with Lance for back-up PG?

I've been chewing on Tbird's opinion that Larry (has stated (?) that he) prefers "pure-position" players. I also remember, however, Isaiah's "interchangeable parts" philosophy. (No groans, please.) My preference is for the starters to be rather "pure" and the primary subs to be interchangeable, thus creating a nine-man rotation. Add a "pure" PG and C, since they're the most difficult to fill, and a few developmental prospects, and you've got an ideal team structure, IMO. If Brandon Rush were (had been?) more reliable, we'd be set in the back-court; but as things stand, he and Paulie are switched. We're gettin' there!

____1____________2_____________3____________4_____ ________5
D Collison______P George______D Granger_______(TBD)________R Hibbert
_________G Hill_________B Rush_________(TBD)_______McBob?
________Lance__D Jones______(J Posey)________Hans_________Foster?
__________AJ______________________________________ ______Stanko??


EDIT: I put in the underscores to keep the columns aligned. HTML advice, please: if I do it in Excel, can I just copy/paste the cells? Do I use ??

I basically completely agree with everything you said.

P.S. here is your table. I don't know why there is so much space between, but if you want to see the code just quote my post.

<table>
<tr>
<th>1</th>
<th>2</th>
<th>3</th>
<th>4</th>
<th>5</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>D Collison</th>
<th>P George</th>
<th>D Granger</th>
<th>(TBD)</th>
<th>R Hibbert</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>G Hill</th>
<th>B Rush</th>
<th>(TBD)</th>
<th>McBob?</th>
<th>5</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>Lance</th>
<th>D Jones</th>
<th>(J Posey)</th>
<th>Hans</th>
<th>Foster?</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>AJ</th>
<th>2</th>
<th>3</th>
<th>4</th>
<th>Stanko</th>
</tr>
</table>

Merz
06-25-2011, 02:13 AM
I don't think getting Hill means Collison will be used much differently. Perhaps Collison will play less when the other team has a larger, scoring point guard. I think both Collison and Hill will both play around 30 minutes a game.

Hill will get minutes at both guard spots. He'll get 16 - 22 minutes backing up Collison and 8 - 15 minutes at the 2, depending on the matchups.

RLeWorm
06-25-2011, 02:31 AM
Hill can do as much as DC on offense. They move handle the ball well, DC might drive better but Hill is a better outside shooter. Hill is a lot better on defense and that's why i hope he is the starter. Finally someone to guard these quick PG's coming into the league. I have nothing against DC, i was happier than a motha.... when we got him. But Hill was a backup last year and almost put up the stats DC did.

Kemo
06-25-2011, 03:04 AM
I'm a big Collison fan but I've seen George Hill play a bunch. He wasn't one of the main options for the spurs like Collison was for the Pacers. So obviously he got less points. From what I've seen he is smarter with the ball and is a better spot up shooter then Collison. You throw defense in the mix and I won't be suprised to see George Hill starting. Remember he backed up TONY PARKER!!!!! Collison isn't that type of player George Hill will start.

I agree with your thoughts on Hill being a smart player and better defender.... but Remember , Collison backed up CHRIS PAUL .. lol so that particular point you were trying to make is moot ...

LeeTheG7
06-25-2011, 06:22 AM
I agree with your thoughts on Hill being a smart player and better defender.... but Remember , Collison backed up CHRIS PAUL .. lol so that particular point you were trying to make is moot ...

That isn't the point I'm making. That point was for all the people saying that George Hill is a combo guard. I think he can play point guard but was only a shooting guard because of Tony Parker. He also played point when Tony went out. Collison isn't quite as good as Tony Parker or experienced. George Hill won't have to play combo guard role if he is the best guy for the job at point guard.

DrFife
06-25-2011, 07:03 AM
<table>
<tr>
<th>1</th>
<th>2</th>
<th>3</th>
<th>4</th>
<th>5</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>D Collison</th>
<th>P George</th>
<th>D Granger</th>
<th>(TBD)</th>
<th>R Hibbert</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>G Hill</th>
<th>B Rush</th>
<th>(TBD)</th>
<th>McBob?</th>
<th>5</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>Lance</th>
<th>D Jones</th>
<th>(J Posey)</th>
<th>Hans</th>
<th>Foster?</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>AJ</th>
<th>2</th>
<th>3</th>
<th>4</th>
<th>Stanko</th>
</tr>
</table>

Many thanks, Eleazar, although can you help adjust the 2nd row to the right, please? G Hill, for example should fit in between the 1 and 2 columns, thus illustrating his 1-2 "interchangeable" role.

Downtown Bang!
06-25-2011, 08:56 AM
Collison will start at PG but Hill will close a lot of games. Especially tight games against teams with good offensive points like Rose, Rondo, Paul etc. Hill can defend them and is also good enough offensively to make these guys work on defense too.

Travis Best played the same roll for the late 90's Pacers when Mark Jackson couldn't be counted on to stay in front of his man late in games. What makes Hill much better than Best is the ability to give solid minutes (offense & defense) at 2-Guard as well.

Larry Staverman
06-25-2011, 09:56 AM
I would hope that if Collison is losing playing time to Hill because he is a better defender that it would motivate Collision to focus on playing better defense.

And if Collison became a better defender then Lance would realize that he would need to work on his defense as well to get more playing time.

Then the whole team is better no matter who is playing the point.

BBQ
06-25-2011, 10:35 AM
I would hope that if Collison is losing playing time to Hill because he is a better defender that it would motivate Collision to focus on playing better defense.

And if Collison became a better defender then Lance would realize that he would need to work on his defense as well to get more playing time.

Then the whole team is better no matter who is playing the point.

In my mind if Danny Granger payed better attention to defense, everyone else might as well. And like I said in a different thread, I sure wish we could hear more about Paul George's statement that Danny is known as a lazy guy...

Really?
06-25-2011, 10:51 AM
I think people are confusing what Hill is capable of and how Hill was used in SA.

I can't wait til George and Hill are on the court at the same time... Can't wait to see all the fast break plays after steals...

BlueNGold
06-25-2011, 11:01 AM
Collison will start at PG but Hill will close a lot of games. Especially tight games against teams with good offensive points like Rose, Rondo, Paul etc. Hill can defend them and is also good enough offensively to make these guys work on defense too.

Travis Best played the same roll for the late 90's Pacers when Mark Jackson couldn't be counted on to stay in front of his man late in games. What makes Hill much better than Best is the ability to give solid minutes (offense & defense) at 2-Guard as well.

Hill is probably a better defender than Travis who was under 6 feet tall. Also, I doubt Hill will pound the air out of the ball like Travis tended to do. We may be in the best hands at the PG position since the 90's.