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A.B.Hollywood
06-24-2011, 03:37 PM
The longer his situation is dragged out the more likely it is this man opts out and becomes a free agent. First some news from his front I just read:

http://www.nola.com/hornets/index.ssf/2011/06/new_orleans_hornets_forward_da_7.html


David West said that he still hasn't decided whether to opt out of the final year of his contract with the Hornets.
West intends to speak with the Hornets soon and "throw some ideas around," but we don't expect resolution until later in the week. He also mentioned that he has "total confidence" in his surgically-repaired knee, an injury that has made his potential free agency something of a gamble. Jun 24, 12:56 PM
Source: New Orleans Times-Picayune

If he is that confident in his knee and he thinks doctors will say so in workouts he will opt out.

Now, let me also preface this by saying Josh Smith and Nene are my two top choices here but I also think those are less likely. Nene is looking more and more like he is signing with Denver and JSmooth would have to be a trade target which is anyone's guess really what will happen there. JJ Hickson is also intriguing but what will he cost? West though is likely going to be right there for the taking.

Pros:


Offensive game at the PF spot we have not had in 20 years. And yes, that includes Jermaine O'Neal in his prime. He is a Two Time All Star for a reason
Is already familiar with Collison who when together ran one of the best Pick n Roll options in the West this side of well... Chris Paul and him. Ahem.
He's extremely efficient: 85% from the FT line, 50% from the field
He's also extremely consistent: His averages across the board are unbelievably reliable year to year
Good (not great) rebounder
Fast Hands: Solid passer and will even snag a couple steals
Big motor, high energy player
Very likeable guy. Won't get into trouble and will represent our Blue and Gold very well
Most of all for me: His recent Knee Surgery lowers his price.



Cons:

Turns 31 this August
Knee Surgery - No matter what he says this is still a question mark
How does he fit next to Hibbert? I actually don't mind this, others seem to disagree
Not a huge Shot Blocker


All in all I see a dynamic scoring PF that is still in his prime for a few more seasons who will bring leadership and meet numerous direct needs the Pacers have. More so I see a player that if he never got hurt would likely never sign with the Pacers to begin with and would demand a max or VERY close to it salary.

This knee injury might have been a blessing in disguise for us. And when looking at next years unrestricted free Agent Crop I tend to lean towards this as our move compared to just sitting on the money for 2012.

Not 100% convinced but the more I think about this move in the 9-11 million, 5 year deal range really makes sense to me. We'd still have some flexibility and with a starting 5 of:

DC
Paul George
Granger
David West
Roy Hibbert

With George Hill, Psycho T as the first two off the bench this team just became a force. Right now.

West career Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/david_west/career_stats.html

BPump33
06-24-2011, 03:38 PM
During the meet and greet Morway seemed very upset that West blew out his knee. I think that was the direction they had planned on going.

A.B.Hollywood
06-24-2011, 03:43 PM
During the meet and greet Morway seemed very upset that West blew out his knee. I think that was the direction they had planned on going.

Makes a lot of sense. The question will be if he checks out OK. If he does and we just snagged the same player for 3-5 million less then sign me up.

Bird got a taste for the playoffs and he wants to win now IMO. West (if he checks out) should accomplish that.

vnzla81
06-24-2011, 03:47 PM
No thank you.

Infinite MAN_force
06-24-2011, 03:50 PM
If we went that route, I think I would look to trade Hansbrough for an athletic, rebounding, shot blocking, defending big off the bench. Preferably one who could player PF or Center. If his haircut resembles sideshow Bob, thats a plus too :)

Need a tough guy and rebounding specialist if your front court is Hibbert-West because that sounds a tad soft to me. Add a Varejo into that mix and I like it a whole lot better.

thatch3232
06-24-2011, 03:52 PM
If we can get him for under 10 mil a season and for a 1-4 year deal. I'm all for it. Anything more and I'd pass

Hicks
06-24-2011, 03:58 PM
Only if the price is right.

CableKC
06-24-2011, 04:00 PM
During the meet and greet Morway seemed very upset that West blew out his knee. I think that was the direction they had planned on going.
Just to be clear...are you saying that during the Meet and Greet...the subject of David West came up and he reacted that way?

Will Galen
06-24-2011, 04:03 PM
Not 100% convinced but the more I think about this move in the 9-11 million, 5 year deal range really makes sense to me. We'd still have some flexibility and with a starting 5 of:



I agree with your thinking up until you discuss the above. I think that's too much money for someone coming off an injury, but the point I wanted to make was we don't know what the financial parameters of the new collective bargaining agreement will be. Plus he's likely to be 32 years old by the time ball is played again, so even if the new bargaining contract would allow it I think 5 years is way to long.

A.B.Hollywood
06-24-2011, 04:05 PM
I agree with your thinking up until you discuss the above. I think that's too much money for someone coming off an injury, but the point I wanted to make was we don't know what the financial parameters of the new collective bargaining agreement will be. Plus he's likely to be 32 years old by the time ball is played again, so even if the new bargaining contract would allow it I think 5 years is way to long.

What other All Star type talent can we sign for a better deal than that who will give us 20/8 on a nightly basis?

And David West isn't soft. Hibbert? Maybe. But West holds his own in the post.

clintonPacer
06-24-2011, 04:09 PM
This is definitely a move to look into. I think West or Milsapp would be a good fit for this team

beast23
06-24-2011, 04:25 PM
I also believe 5 years is too long for a 31 year old player coming off of a knee injury. I have been completely behind acquiring West, but do have my worries after the knee injury. Apparently Morway feels the same way.

But if the knee checks out and the amount is more like 7M-8M per year, I'm on board for maybe 3 years with a 4th year option.

naptownmenace
06-24-2011, 04:26 PM
Pros:


Offensive game at the PF spot we have not had in 20 years. And yes, that includes Jermaine O'Neal in his prime. He is a Two Time All Star for a reason

West career Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/david_west/career_stats.html
I really liked your post and loved where it was going until I got to the above points.

Revisionist History really sucks.

JO in his prime was a 6-time All-Star and he had several big games against New Orleans and David West. JO was also a much better defender. Even on one leg last year he was a better defender than West.

I like David West and if he's healthy, I think he'd be a great addition to the Pacers. However, if I've learned anything from the ACL injuries to bigmen like Danny Manning, Antonio McDyess, Chris Webber, and Jermaine O'Neal it's that big guys don't play as well after blowing their knees out.

Nene seems to be the only PF I can think of that has had success after an ACL injury. So the chances of David West being a shell of his former self is better than the chance that he'll ever be an All-Star level player again.

CooperManning
06-24-2011, 04:31 PM
I was a fan of the West signing-plan before the injury, now I don't know what to think. It would take a lot to get him and I don't know if I'd be willing to pay it, especially after adding the (worthwhile) burden of re-signing Hill. If we plan to keep Hansbrough longterm it just seems like it'd make more sense to wait until a 4/5 hybrid type player comes available. Then again, signing West would be the quickest way to improve the team without giving up any assets. Tough decision, going to come down to how many years he wants and how much. My gut tells me West could be our version of Boozer - good, but occasionally gets outplayed by the backup and isn't really worth his contract.

PR07
06-24-2011, 04:31 PM
I have a hard time giving big money to a big guy coming off major knee surgery on the wrong side of 30. After seeing guys like Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Webber, and Elton Brand never recover, I think I'd rather invest the big money into someone else.

BPump33
06-24-2011, 04:49 PM
Just to be clear...are you saying that during the Meet and Greet...the subject of David West came up and he reacted that way?

My co-worker sat in for me (as I preferred to be in Area 55), but yes that's what he told me. They were talking about FA's and someone threw out the name David West and Morway looked pretty bummed about the whole situation. I'm not saying we were absolutely going to sign West, but that's what my buddy inferred from the meet and greet.

A.B.Hollywood
06-24-2011, 04:52 PM
I really liked your post and loved where it was going until I got to the above points.

Revisionist History really sucks.

JO in his prime was a 6-time All-Star and he had several big games against New Orleans and David West. JO was also a much better defender. Even on one leg last year he was a better defender than West.

I like David West and if he's healthy, I think he'd be a great addition to the Pacers. However, if I've learned anything from the ACL injuries to bigmen like Danny Manning, Antonio McDyess, Chris Webber, and Jermaine O'Neal it's that big guys don't play as well after blowing their knees out.

Nene seems to be the only PF I can think of that has had success after an ACL injury. So the chances of David West being a shell of his former self is better than the chance that he'll ever be an All-Star level player again.

Uhh. My statement was best OFFENSIVE game. He is a more skilled offensive post player than Jermaine. I still stand by that. I never compared the two defensively.

I also think that Kendrick Perkins, Al Harrington, Al Jefferson and even an old school player like Bob Lanier all on top of Nene's success at least counter balance your theory here. I agree it does not happen often and it worries me but most of those examples were later in their careers. Manning is different and definitely wasn't the same but still was enough to be an All Star two more times and played like 900 or so games after.

The point is, the knee injury lessons the cost. I am not clamoring for a max deal here (which he would have gotten otherwise). 9-11 mill and 4-5 years feels right to me. Anything less than that is just gravy IMO.

Again, I'm not 100% sold but I think this is something to *seriously* consider and position ourselves for.

RLeWorm
06-24-2011, 05:17 PM
He isn't the answer at pf, he will ask for to much. Trade Granger for a star PF damn it

PR07
06-24-2011, 05:21 PM
Uhh. My statement was best OFFENSIVE game. He is a more skilled offensive post player than Jermaine. I still stand by that. I never compared the two defensively.



If you're talking about David West, there was no way he's a more skilled post player than Jermaine was in his prime. Isn't David West pretty much a pick 'n roll player with a mid range jump shot offensively? Jermaine had the ability to use both hands in the post pretty well, before he started settling for fadeaway midrange jumpers as his career started winding down.

presto123
06-24-2011, 05:34 PM
Yeah if we can get a starter caliber PF in here we will have a nice roster. I still see Tyler and Josh as nice backups and would be happy with either one off the bench. Probably Tyler for his tenacity but I think Josh will make a nice player for some team if not here. Hopefully Hibbert starts eating nails in the off-season. LOL

sopgy
06-24-2011, 05:49 PM
At the right price, sure. What is that price? Probably around the $7.5 that he is scheduled to make next year, but make it a 4 year deal. Above that, and it is not worth the risk. That would just feel like the money is burning a hole in Bird's pocket.

I think West might go for a 7.5 mil/ 4 year deal because that is money in the bank. If he decided not to opt out and his play suffers even a bit, he probably won't even get that much money as a free agent in 2012. Keep in mind he will be 32 when the season starts and it would be risky for him to be playing in a contract year.

naptownmenace
06-24-2011, 06:07 PM
Uhh. My statement was best OFFENSIVE game. He is a more skilled offensive post player than Jermaine. I still stand by that. I never compared the two defensively.

Totally disagree. I've been watching David West since he was playing at Xavier here in Cincy. He's got a good repretoire of moves but at best he might be as good as JO but certainly not better.


I also think that Kendrick Perkins, Al Harrington, Al Jefferson and even an old school player like Bob Lanier all on top of Nene's success at least counter balance your theory here. I agree it does not happen often and it worries me but most of those examples were later in their careers. Manning is different and definitely wasn't the same but still was enough to be an All Star two more times and played like 900 or so games after.

The point is, the knee injury lessons the cost. I am not clamoring for a max deal here (which he would have gotten otherwise). 9-11 mill and 4-5 years feels right to me. Anything less than that is just gravy IMO.

Again, I'm not 100% sold but I think this is something to *seriously* consider and position ourselves for.


Good points here. I'm not sure that Al Harrington or Kendrick Perkins have made it back to their pre-injury levels. Perkins looked awfully slow and had no lift in the playoffs this year. Nene and Al Jefferson have been good. However, they were much younger when they had their injuries than when JO, Brand, Webber, and West had theirs.

West is 31 almost 32 years old. I think we should go after the other younger Hornets FA PF - Carl Landry.

Will Galen
06-24-2011, 06:38 PM
He isn't the answer at pf, he will ask for to much. Trade Granger for a star PF damn it

NO!

Frostwolf
06-24-2011, 06:46 PM
what star PF will we get with granger in a trade?

rexnom
06-24-2011, 07:15 PM
I don't want to handicap our franchise with someone whose health I know nothing about. Will he ever play a full season again? Will he ever be at full strength again?

Gamble1
06-24-2011, 07:28 PM
I was a fan of the West signing-plan before the injury, now I don't know what to think. It would take a lot to get him and I don't know if I'd be willing to pay it, especially after adding the (worthwhile) burden of re-signing Hill. If we plan to keep Hansbrough longterm it just seems like it'd make more sense to wait until a 4/5 hybrid type player comes available. Then again, signing West would be the quickest way to improve the team without giving up any assets. Tough decision, going to come down to how many years he wants and how much. My gut tells me West could be our version of Boozer - good, but occasionally gets outplayed by the backup and isn't really worth his contract.
Lets not get crazy here.... Boozer is getting 15 mill and no one will offer Dwest that type of money after this injury.

As many of you know I have been drumming up the support for Dwest for awhile now and its not a move a franchise like the Pacers should make if they think his knee won't recover. This is one of those deals where you have to do your homework in advance and if he did opt out then we will have hopefully a couple of months for him to recover without having to make an offer.

All the reports coming out is that Dwest is ahead of schedule and if the CBA is a couple of months away then we can make a educated decison on his contract which I would expect to be around 27 mill over 3 years.

Pacersalltheway10
06-24-2011, 07:44 PM
I wish we could've traded Granger for LaMarcus Aldridge but he's untouchable now. This is going to be an interesting summer for sure.

Pacerized
06-24-2011, 09:57 PM
West wouldn't be my first choice if he were healthy. I'd take a healthy West but I'd prefer Nene, or Gasol out of all the free agent big men.
Under the circumstances I'd rather trade or wait another year then to offer West any kind of significant contract. I seriously doubt if he opts out.

beast23
06-25-2011, 12:24 AM
He isn't the answer at pf, he will ask for to much. Trade Granger for a star PF damn itTrading our best player for another player is not the solution. A far better move to help the W-L record would be to add an additional great player next to Granger. That's why Bird/Morway spent 3 years to build up our cap space. Damn it.

D squared fan
06-25-2011, 01:00 AM
How about Carl Landry or Chuck Hayes???

granger33
06-25-2011, 01:11 AM
Must every thread turn into trade granger??

Mourning
06-25-2011, 04:11 AM
What other All Star type talent can we sign for a better deal than that who will give us 20/8 on a nightly basis?

I wouldn't mind it if we take the carefull route here. Too many teams spend way too much on mediocre players in FA.

Making a trade with a team that is in financial purgetory this summer, during the coming season or next summer or making an offer to a player next summer in FA (which is bound to be a lot better then this summers FA crop) with a player that we really want/need is the better way to go IMHO.

Patience really is a virtue that could pay off for us.

Pacer!
06-25-2011, 04:36 AM
Unless it really is a bargain, I say no...

IMO West, is similar to Dirk in that they are both fantastic offensive PFs but only average (not bad) defenders and rebounders (although Dirk is decent in this area).

For a team to really succeed with either of these two they need to play next to a dominant/athletic defensive centre, ala Chandler for Dallas. Again, with TC as the example in NOLA, the combination of TC and West for a few seasons there was much more successful than any combination they've had since.

I feel that West needs a defensive minded, paint-patroler such as TC to do the scrappy things on defense, allowing West to flourish on offense, for a successful PF-C combination.

Hibbert simply isn't that player, and therefore West is not a great fit with our frontcourt... as I said I would not take West unless it really is a bargain, especially considering the knee issue.

Shade
06-25-2011, 08:17 AM
I was all for pursuing West before the injury. Now, however, I'd be a bit more interested in Millsap, unless West comes cheaply enough to minimize the risk.

Shade
06-25-2011, 08:18 AM
I wish we could've traded Granger for LaMarcus Aldridge but he's untouchable now. This is going to be an interesting summer for sure.

Nobody is untouchable.

wintermute
06-25-2011, 08:33 AM
Nobody is untouchable.

I think he means LaMarcus. Strictly speaking, I don't think he's untouchable, but surely Portland won't trade him for Granger.

Like others said, I'd be ok with West, as long as it's a reasonable contract. Problem is, Hornets could offer a reasonable contract too, and I think if money is equal then West would prefer to stay in New Orleans. But anyway, we'll see.

I'm all for Millsap if we could get him.

Shade
06-25-2011, 08:36 AM
I think he means LaMarcus. Strictly speaking, I don't think he's untouchable, but surely Portland won't trade him for Granger.

Like others said, I'd be ok with West, as long as it's a reasonable contract. Problem is, Hornets could offer a reasonable contract too, and I think if money is equal then West would prefer to stay in New Orleans. But anyway, we'll see.

I'm all for Millsap if we could get him.

I know he was referring to Aldridge. He's far from untouchable.

trailrunner
06-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Makes a lot of sense. The question will be if he checks out OK. If he does and we just snagged the same player for 3-5 million less then sign me up.

Bird got a taste for the playoffs and he wants to win now IMO. West (if he checks out) should accomplish that.

West will earn over 8 million next year. He will not opt out for less money. He is 31 years old I believe. Seems risky to me to make a major investment in an older player coming off major knee surgery.

trailrunner
06-26-2011, 10:56 PM
I was a fan of the West signing-plan before the injury, now I don't know what to think. It would take a lot to get him and I don't know if I'd be willing to pay it, especially after adding the (worthwhile) burden of re-signing Hill. If we plan to keep Hansbrough longterm it just seems like it'd make more sense to wait until a 4/5 hybrid type player comes available. Then again, signing West would be the quickest way to improve the team without giving up any assets. Tough decision, going to come down to how many years he wants and how much. My gut tells me West could be our version of Boozer - good, but occasionally gets outplayed by the backup and isn't really worth his contract.

If he never fully recovers from the injury, we are stuck for 4-5 years at 8-9 million per. It is not worth the risk now. If he plays for NO next year and is fine then we have the cap space to offer.

trailrunner
06-26-2011, 11:15 PM
Milsap might be our best option if Bird wants to trade for a PF. He has good numbers and is fairly cost effective. Utah is rumored to be shopping him. They may ask for too much in return however.

neosmndrew
06-27-2011, 12:46 AM
Rush + Dantay + Foster for Millsaps and Krilenko (who i believe utah jazz want to move for his salary). Throw around some things to make salaries work. Makes us a much better team.

granger33
06-27-2011, 02:05 AM
Rush + Dantay + Foster for Millsaps and Krilenko (who i believe utah jazz want to move for his salary). Throw around some things to make salaries work. Makes us a much better team.

I'd like to meet a pacers fan who wouldn't want this deal to go down

pacer4ever
06-27-2011, 02:19 AM
Rush + Dantay + Foster for Millsaps and Krilenko (who i believe utah jazz want to move for his salary). Throw around some things to make salaries work. Makes us a much better team.

AK47 contract expired already

and Kevin O'Conner would laugh Larry Bird off the phone at that offer.

Heisenberg
06-27-2011, 02:40 AM
Looks like he'll be on the market

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6707803


Despite suffering a season-ending knee injury in March, New Orleans Hornets (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/no/new-orleans-hornets) power forward David West (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2177/david-west) is expected to opt out of the final season of his contract this week and become a free agent, according to sources close to the situation.

West has a June 30 deadline in his contract to notify the Hornets whether he will invoke next season's $7.5 million salary or opt for free agency, but sources say that the Hornets are already bracing for West to make his opt-out decision official before Thursday's buzzer.

The Hornets have anticipated all along that West would become a free agent, even though the former All-Star was forced to undergo surgery in April to repair a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee suffered March 24. The reason: West still figures to be one of the two or three most coveted players on the open market in spite of the injury after years of consistent production and averages of 18.9 points and 7.6 rebounds in 70 games last season.

The Hornets, sources said, would still love to sign West to an extension before Thursday's deadline. But it's believed that West -- even in a financial landscape forecasted to be more restrictive starting next season and even factoring in his injury -- will eventually earn more in free agency than he could in an extension that would have to be calculated with next season's $7.5 million salary as a starting point.

HeliumFear
06-27-2011, 02:53 AM
Pass. We'd have to overpay to get him and he's old. That puts us in win-now mode,which would be pointless as we wouldn't make it past (or possiby not even to) the 2nd round (assuming he'd be the only big move) unless Paul George makes a huge leap.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 03:00 AM
This means that he (and his agent) fully believe that he is worth more than 7.5 million.

I agree. The question now is how much more and for how long.

I have done more research and am lessening my initial stance here. I think something like 37 million over 4 years (with a team 5th option) works and is likely more than others would pay. Why do I suggest doing this then you ask? Because we can frontload that contract. No matter what we do this off-season we won't spend all our money. So if you paid him something like 16 million in 2011-2012, and then dropped it down to 7 million per season for the 3 years thereafter we have our man and he isn't breaking the bank either.

I *really* like the prospects of this IMO.

wintermute
06-27-2011, 06:18 AM
Good news for us if he opts out. Better to have more options in the marketplace. And it opens up the possibility that someone may salary dump a contract on us if they want to go after West. Think the Sixers dumping Rodney Carney with a pick to make room for Brand a few years back.


How about Carl Landry or Chuck Hayes???

I missed this before. Yes to Chuck Hayes! If there's any free agent I'm ready to overpay this year, it's the Chuckwagon. Don't we want defense and rebounding at the PF spot? Chuck's our man then :D

Heisenberg
06-27-2011, 06:22 AM
I missed this before. Yes to Chuck Hayes! If there's any free agent I'm ready to overpay this year, it's the Chuckwagon. Don't we want defense and rebounding at the PF spot? Chuck's our man then :D
Plus we'd get a good laugh out of this every so often

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0wQq9YWZ568" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="349" width="425"></iframe>

Seriously though, I'd be all for a Hayes signing. Jeff's replacement as he moves towards becoming Stern's replacement.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 06:31 AM
Why do I suggest doing this then you ask? Because we can frontload that contract.


Ballism pointed out in another thread you can't frontload a FA contract, so this won't work.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 06:38 AM
Signing West would do as much good to the Pacers as Elton Brand is doing in Philly.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 06:39 AM
Must every thread turn into trade granger??


It's become SOP.

wintermute
06-27-2011, 07:11 AM
Plus we'd get a good laugh out of this every so often

Seriously though, I'd be all for a Hayes signing. Jeff's replacement as he moves towards becoming Stern's replacement.

Hayes has a free throw shooting stroke that makes me wince every time I watch it. The good news is that he shot a career high 66% from the line last year. Jeff Foster in comparison shot 56% :laugh:

Speed
06-27-2011, 07:45 AM
I like West, I'm leary of

1.) a huge contract for an injured guy

2.) a PF only, big man - he isn't a great rebounder or defender (although not bad) and doesn't have positional flexibility. I see the front court need as a defender/shotblocker/banger if you are keeping and building around TH and Roy, he's not this type of player, imo.

3.) a guy who will be on the downside at the end of a new contract. (he'll be 31 in August, if you sign him to a 4 yr deal, he'll be 35 in the last year....)

4.) a player who plays with CP3

On #4, CP3 makes guys better, so how good is West outside of being with CP3. It's the Shawn Marion/Nash factor for me. Marion looked like an allstar with Nash, then without him, prior to Dallas, he looked pedestrian or maybe just 'good'. I don't want THE MOVE to be for a guy who isn't as good as we think without CP3.

What I love about West is he's a scorer and a vet. I'm not down on him, these are just my concerns.

xIndyFan
06-27-2011, 08:40 AM
I like West, I'm leary of

1.) a huge contract for an injured guy

2.) a PF only, big man - he isn't a great rebounder or defender (although not bad) and doesn't have positional flexibility. I see the front court need as a defender/shotblocker/banger if you are keeping and building around TH and Roy, he's not this type of player, imo.

3.) a guy who will be on the downside at the end of a new contract. (he'll be 31 in August, if you sign him to a 4 yr deal, he'll be 35 in the last year....)

4.) a player who plays with CP3

On #4, CP3 makes guys better, so how good is West outside of being with CP3. It's the Shawn Marion/Nash factor for me. Marion looked like an allstar with Nash, then without him, prior to Dallas, he looked pedestrian or maybe just 'good'. I don't want THE MOVE to be for a guy who isn't as good as we think without CP3.

What I love about West is he's a scorer and a vet. I'm not down on him, these are just my concerns.

plus david west duplicates much of what tyler already does. and what tyler already doesn't do. got no problem with west's game, but it doesn't add anything much to what the pacers are already doing. and what they are already doing is winning 37 games.

spending lots of money and cap space on a guy that does what your young PF already does doesn't seem the best use of the cap space.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 08:48 AM
plus david west duplicates much of what tyler already does. and what tyler already doesn't do. got no problem with west's game, but it doesn't add anything much to what the pacers are already doing. and what they are already doing is winning 37 games.

spending lots of money and cap space on a guy that does what your young PF already does doesn't seem the best use of the cap space.
Can we stop with the "we only won 37 games mantra". I know its technically accurate but it doesn't factor in JOB and his negative influence and its a weak argument to make IMO.

David West would be consistent and yes he does replicate what Tyler does but he is better at the moment and what we needed most from Tyler was consistency which West would bring.

I think 3 years is a good contract for a guy like West and I don't see him getting more than 9 mill per.



4.) a player who plays with CP3

This is a valid point but Milsap and other PF's have the same concerns IMO.

Lets also not forget that Chris Paul was injuried in 09/10. He played 45 games and the guy backing him up was our own Darren Collison. Did you see his numbers drop of signficantly when Collison took over?

QuickRelease
06-27-2011, 08:50 AM
Patience:loco: Don't be using this kind of language. ;)

xIndyFan
06-27-2011, 08:56 AM
. . . David West would be consistent and yes he does replicate what Tyler does but he is better at the moment and what we needed most from Tyler was consistency which West would bring.

I think 3 years is a good contract for a guy like West and I don't see him getting more than 9 mill per.

since tyler does the same thing for ~$2M, it seems like pacers are wasting the extra money. now if you want to trade tyler and keep west, i can understand your point. but i think tyler is the better/cheaper option.

owl
06-27-2011, 09:03 AM
West is opting out of his contract according to Hoopshype.
When does Portland have to pick up Oden's option? Is it not before the end of June?

xIndyFan
06-27-2011, 09:08 AM
West is opting out of his contract according to Hoopshype.
When does Portland have to pick up Oden's option? Is it not before the end of June?

yes, it is a qualifying offer, not an option. but it needs to be done before july 1st.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 09:13 AM
since tyler does the same thing for ~$2M, it seems like pacers are wasting the extra money. now if you want to trade tyler and keep west, i can understand your point. but i think tyler is the better/cheaper option.
Here's the thing though he doesn't do the same thing. I would say he does similar things to West with less consistency and slightly worse rate atleast offensively speaking.

In my mind Tyler is still learning while David West is a finish product. I am fine with people who think Tlyer can replicate David West in the future but he doesn't now and he can't for the entire game.

He's not as good as a defender and he not as good at passing or playing team defense. That doesn't mean he can't be but Tyler is too inconsistent at this moment to rely on him to start. I honestly hope that changes which is why I want a 3 year contract for West and not a 4 year one.

We have 2 more years with Tyler to figure out if he is the future and by that time West would be an expiring contract that would be attractive to teams contending. We can make a informed call with Tyler at that point but right now we are hoping that Tyler can reach David West's abilities if not surpass them.

Unclebuck
06-27-2011, 09:22 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6707803

David West to be free agent



<CITE class=source>By Marc Stein
ESPN.com
Archive (http://search.espn.go.com/marc-stein/) </CITE><!-- end mod-article-title --><!-- begin story body -->
Despite suffering a season-ending knee injury in March, New Orleans Hornets (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/no/new-orleans-hornets) power forward David West (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2177/david-west) said he will opt out of the final season of his contract this week and become a free agent.
"We just felt like this is the best thing for me, to go forward, and I made the decision based on where I was since the the knee (surgery) and all those other things and I felt it was the right time for me to make a good decision," West told the (New Orleans) Times-Picayune on Monday.

West has a June 30 deadline in his contract to notify the Hornets whether he will invoke next season's $7.5 million salary or opt for free agency.
<!-- begin inline 1 --><!--INLINE MUG-->
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/2177.png&w=65&h=90&scale=crop&background=0xcccccc&transparent=false
West
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The Hornets have anticipated all along that West would become a free agent, even though the former All-Star was forced to undergo surgery in April to repair a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee suffered March 24. The reason: West still figures to be one of the two or three most coveted players on the open market in spite of the injury after years of consistent production and averages of 18.9 points and 7.6 rebounds in 70 games last season.

The Hornets, sources said, would still love to sign West to an extension before Thursday's deadline. But it's believed that West -- even in a financial landscape forecasted to be more restrictive starting next season and even factoring in his injury -- will eventually earn more in free agency than he could in an extension that would have to be calculated with next season's $7.5 million salary as a starting point.
"We'll have to talk to them, obviously, and see where (Hornets general manager) Dell (Demps) is," West told the newspaper. "The Hornets have an opportunity. But I'm looking for an opportunity to win, honestly. We'll see how things work out, and what the Hornets do to make our situation better. That's really all it came down to. At this point in my career, I want to win, and I want to win big."

Free agency will be delayed if the NBA, as expected, imposes a lockout July 1. But sources say only an unforeseen rehabilitation setback in the next 72 hours would change West's plans.

The Times-Picayune reported on Friday that West has been rehabbing twice daily and started on that schedule even before New York orthopedist Dr. David Altchek reconstructed the torn ligament. Altchek re-examined West's knee in New York two weeks ago and proclaimed him ahead of schedule in a rehabilitation period that initially was expected to last six to eight months.

Hornets general manager Dell Demps (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3682/dell-demps) told the Times-Picayune last week: "Whether he opts in or opts out, our goal is to keep David West here. We said it from Day 1: We want David West to retire a Hornet. He's been great to us on and off the court. We're hoping his recovery continues on pace as it is right now. He's right on schedule to come back next year and play.

"We're hoping for a speedy recovery. Our goal is to keep him. There's room for both (West and free-agent power forward Carl Landry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3217/carl-landry)). Our goal is to keep that core together. We're not changing off that plan."
Marc Stein is a senior NBA writer for ESPN.com.

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 09:22 AM
Only if West never had hurt himself! But at soon to be 31 and not knowing his full knee potential, this thread is worthless. West was already a soft player. He will even be softer with his age and injury. Tough luck for West!

If he opts out, he will go play for one of the big 8 teams as most all great veterans do when they have the option. He's not gonna opt out to come here and he's not worth any more then he is already getting. With all this said, to pay, say, 2mil extra per year to try and get him here is just dumb.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 09:29 AM
Only if West never had hurt himself! But at soon to be 31 and not knowing his full knee potential, this thread is worthless. West was already a soft player. He will even be softer with his age and injury. Tough luck for West!

If he opts out, he will go play for one of the big 8 teams as most all great veterans do when they have the option. He's not gonna opt out to come here and he's not worth any more then he is already getting. With all this said, to pay, say, 2mil extra per year to try and get him here is just dumb.
He's opting out for money and no contenders have it. IMO we will have a shot to sign him if Bird wants him.

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 09:32 AM
He's opting out for money and no contenders have it. IMO we will have a shot to sign him if Bird wants him.

Read what Unclebuck just posted and tell me if David is talking money or winning? Miami, Knicks and all the big 8 teams can get him for MLE.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 09:39 AM
Read what Unclebuck just posted and tell me if David is talking money or winning? Miami, Knicks and all the big 8 teams can get him for MLE.


The Hornets, sources said, would still love to sign West to an extension before Thursday's deadline. But it's believed that West -- even in a financial landscape forecasted to be more restrictive starting next season and even factoring in his injury -- will eventually earn more in free agency than he could in an extension that would have to be calculated with next season's $7.5 million salary as a starting point.

Right and I read that thinking that there is no way that MLE. The only way he goes to a contender IMO is a sign and trade and who is looking for a pf on a contending team.

Bulls - NO
Heat - NO
Lakers - NO
Spurs - Maybe
Mavs - NO
Boston - Maybe

I think all the teams above would take him for the MLE but they also have bigger issues that the MLE could address and if there is no MLE then he is hosed.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 09:40 AM
Call me crazy but I'm pretty sure that if Tyler was playing with CP3 his average could be pretty close to West, please Larry SAY NO TO WEST!

BPump33
06-27-2011, 09:46 AM
WojYahooNBA

Two teams that'll be active with David West in free agency: Indiana and New Jersey. For the Nets, especially if they lose Kris Humphries.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 09:46 AM
Call me crazy but I'm pretty sure that if Tyler was playing with CP3 his average could be pretty close to West, please Larry SAY NO TO WEST!
Tyler is asst'd on 62% of his possessions and West last year was asst'd on 60%.

Of course I would take CP3 over Collison but your probably looking at a 4% difference on the pnp situations and that doesn't make Tyler under CP3 better or equal to West IMO.

Mackey_Rose
06-27-2011, 09:56 AM
WojYahooNBA

Two teams that'll be active with David West in free agency: Indiana and New Jersey. For the Nets, especially if they lose Kris Humphries.

@ZachLowe_SI
Zach Lowe

Not seeing an easy free agent option for West that combines cap space, hole at PF and chance to contend.

@ZachLowe_SI
Zach Lowe

No, Pacer fans, your team is not a contender. Take it easy.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 09:56 AM
I also think is funny that the same people that didn't want and "old guy" in Tony Parker(29) are the same people that want West(31 and injured) :wtf:

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 09:56 AM
Right and I read that thinking that there is no way that MLE. The only way he goes to a contender IMO is a sign and trade and who is looking for a pf on a contending team.

Bulls - NO
Heat - NO
Lakers - NO
Spurs - Maybe
Mavs - NO
Boston - Maybe

I think all the teams above would take him for the MLE but they also have bigger issues that the MLE could address and if there is no MLE then he is hosed.

Hornets is talking money. David is talking winning. He can go where he wants for about 6.5mil on the 1st year and will go up every year afterwards on a MLE contract. You left out acouple teams there and all your no's should be maybe/yes and your maybe's should be yes's and the Knicks would most definetly take him even without the MLE if they can dump Billups contract. The Nets are very hungry and they can pay whatever is needed.

Mackey_Rose
06-27-2011, 09:58 AM
Tyler is asst'd on 62% of his possessions and West last year was asst'd on 60%.

Of course I would take CP3 over Collison but your probably looking at a 4% difference on the pnp situations and that doesn't make Tyler under CP3 better or equal to West IMO.

I don't really follow what you're getting at here, so this may be way off. However, if you think CP3 is only 4% better than Collison, you are 400% bat **** crazy.

Really?
06-27-2011, 09:58 AM
2 things,

1st I kind of want our young group to grow a little bit more and find an identity and then insert a new piece that is good...

2nd will there be enough touches to go around with D.West starting along side Hibbert, Granger, George, and DC?

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 09:59 AM
Can we stop with the "we only won 37 games mantra". I know its technically accurate but it doesn't factor in JOB and his negative influence and its a weak argument to make IMO.

David West would be consistent and yes he does replicate what Tyler does but he is better at the moment and what we needed most from Tyler was consistency which West would bring.

I think 3 years is a good contract for a guy like West and I don't see him getting more than 9 mill per.


This is a valid point but Milsap and other PF's have the same concerns IMO.

Lets also not forget that Chris Paul was injuried in 09/10. He played 45 games and the guy backing him up was our own Darren Collison. Did you see his numbers drop of signficantly when Collison took over?


You admit West is like Tyler, so why pay 9 mil a year to 31yo player coming off an injury? I'd rather see the Pacers pay that kind of money to someone young not coming off an injury with a different type of game, "D" & reb, that compliments Hibbert. I rather pass & look in a different direction.

Speed
06-27-2011, 10:03 AM
David wants money and winning under the new CBA AND the league owns the Hornets... I don't see it happening. NBA owned hornets won't trade him under duress to a winner like Carmelo. A "win big" team won't have money to throw at him in Free agency. The Pacers might be his best option to get paid and have the potential of winning, although, not big. We'll see what the league looks like post lock out, but it could be not what West and his agent expects.

Is West saying he only cares about winning mean he'll play for peanuts, I don't think so. This is likely his last big contact, he needs to maximize that.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 10:06 AM
He's opting out for money and no contenders have it. IMO we will have a shot to sign him if Bird wants him.


You are overlooking a S&T from a championship contender.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 10:11 AM
Read what Unclebuck just posted and tell me if David is talking money or winning? Miami, Knicks and all the big 8 teams can get him for MLE.


The present MLE is almost 2 mil less than 7.5 mil he's opting out of. IMO, I believe there is an excellent chance there will be no MLE in the new CBA , or one much less than the current MLE.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 10:16 AM
You are overlooking a S&T from a championship contender.
Not overlooking it just didn't mention there.


Right and I read that thinking that there is no way that MLE. The only way he goes to a contender IMO is a sign and trade and who is looking for a pf on a contending team.

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 10:19 AM
David wants money and winning under the new CBA AND the league owns the Hornets... I don't see it happening. NBA owned hornets won't trade him under duress to a winner like Carmelo. A "win big" team won't have money to throw at him in Free agency. The Pacers might be his best option to get paid and have the potential of winning, although, not big. We'll see what the league looks like post lock out, but it could be not what West and his agent expects.

Is West saying he only cares about winning mean he'll play for peanuts, I don't think so. This is likely his last big contact, he needs to maximize that.

Really? If David opts out the Hornets (league owned) has no rights to him. WTF are you talking about there? There's no trade there!!!

MLE - 6.5 mil in a big market on a contending team is more then he gets now! And if he goes to the Heat he will break even cause he wouldn't have to pay income tax in Florida.

I don't see a lockout and I don't see this CBA resolved this year. I do believe they will extend the CBA as is till next year. It is not in the best interest for the league/owners/players to have a lockout cause there probably would not be a season...They are to far apart to get this resolved.

And if they do get it resolved in time, all the exceptions will be in place with a mutual pay decrease and no hard cap. So, the new CBA will not alter enough to screw up the rosters. Also, any changes will take affect over a coarse of a few yrs. Not overnight, again, so rosters won't get screwed!!!

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 10:21 AM
The present MLE is almost 2 mil less than 7.5 mil he's opting out of. IMO, I believe there is an excellent chance there will be no MLE in the new CBA , or one much less than the current MLE.

the current MLE is 6.2mil and it will increase for next year as aways. It will be approx. 6.5mil. with each year having an increase in salary!

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 10:22 AM
I don't really follow what you're getting at here, so this may be way off. However, if you think CP3 is only 4% better than Collison, you are 400% bat **** crazy.
Well thats obvious.;)

Point being both players get assisted at a similar rate from there pg. Most of the time what made Tyler inconsistent was the pnp situation. When his shot was on he killed it and when it was off he ended up hurting the team IMO. This isn't the only thing just the one thing I was pointing out.

Dwest is more consistent in those situations in which case he would work better with Collison in those situations.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 10:36 AM
Well thats obvious.;)

Point being both players get assisted at a similar rate from there pg. Most of the time what made Tyler inconsistent was the pnp situation. When his shot was on he killed it and when it was off he ended up hurting the team IMO. This isn't the only thing just the one thing I was pointing out.

Dwest is more consistent in those situations in which case he would work better with Collison in those situations.

Getting passes from CP3 is WAY different than getting passes from DC, DC sucks at passing the ball.

imawhat
06-27-2011, 10:49 AM
You are overlooking a S&T from a championship contender.

I think he might wind up here. If he does though, we aren't doing the Hornets any favors after what happened at the trade deadline.

BringJackBack
06-27-2011, 10:50 AM
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
"David wants to win, whether it's in New Orleans or someplace else," agent Lance Young tells Y! " He wouldn't rule out re-signing with NOLA.
1 hour ago
»

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Young: "He wants a fair shot to look and see what else is out there...He's loved the Hornets. It's about finding the perfect place to win."
1 hour ago Favorite Undo Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Doctors have told West that his knee should be 100 percent for a return on November 1, Young said.
1 hour ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Two teams that'll be active with David West in free agency: Indiana and New Jersey. For the Nets, especially if they lose Kris Humphries.
1 hour ago

MikeWellsNBA Mike Wells
To add to @WojYahooNBA's tweet bout Indy expected 2 have interest in D West, Pacers also have Carl Landry, also a free agent, on their radar
35 minutes ago

STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
Hornets PF David West, recovering well from April knee surgery, headed for free agency. ESPN.com link: http://es.pn/jobmXF
8 hours ago

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 11:01 AM
It will be approx. 6.5mil. with each year having an increase in salary!


I don't see it being anywhere close to 6.5 mil if there is even one in the new CBA.

imawhat
06-27-2011, 11:04 AM
I hope that's not true about Landry. It's like we have a mild case of Kahn syndrome, except for backups.

ballism
06-27-2011, 11:11 AM
Do I want West over Tyler? Sure.
Tyler is a black hole compared to West. Which to me is the single biggest weakness for Tyler as a starter. If you are going to play heavy minutes and not be a good defender, then you have to be a complete offensive player which means pass a little. Sure, CP3 helps West a lot. But so does West for CP3&co.
Also, West is a more skilled scorer and he's far less limited in terms of scoring spots.

Do I care much about fit with Hibbert? I suppose so, if Hibbert is a cornerstone. But honestly, I'd rather have a real talent like West and figure it out. Hibbert is expendable to me in that situation.

I don't care about West's age, as has been pointed out many times, he's played WAY less games than Dwight Howard or LeBron, which is more important. The injury would worry me if I was the GM, but I don't see a point to speculate about it now - if there's a deal then medical staff will check it out, and if there's a problem the deal will be off. So what useful could we possibly say about that injury here?

In the end, I'll just trust Bird's due diligence on this. It's a clear upgrade if healthy. And he may be cheap, as in under 10 mil per. Lets say there's a (completely viable) situation - 14-15 mil per for Nene or 9 mil for West and he's clearly healthy; you take West and run.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 11:15 AM
I think he might wind up here. If he does though, we aren't doing the Hornets any favors after what happened at the trade deadline.


Let's not forget the Hornets did the Pacers a HUGH favor doing a S&T for Peja thus giving the Pacers a 7.5 TE when it wasn't necessary. Pulling out of the Mayo deal didn't hurt the Pacers as much as it did the fans whining about it. Bird got Hill, who most seem to think is the best thing since duct tape, in the draft for 2 years for they would have to pay Mayo for one year.

I'm not enthused at the prospect of West with his age and coming off an injury. I wouldn't do a Rumplestiltskin if Bird got West, but he's far from being my 1st choice.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 11:16 AM
Getting passes from CP3 is WAY different than getting passes from DC, DC sucks at passing the ball.
In a pnp situation how is it different. If the pick is set right and the PF has a clear shot then that pass can be made by the poor blind Collison. The fact is Tyler hit those shots some games and he couldn't come close in others.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 11:19 AM
I hope that's not true about Landry. It's like we have a mild case of Kahn syndrome, except for backups.

I agree with this, Landry? Meh.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 11:22 AM
if there's a deal then medical staff will check it out, and if there's a problem the deal will be off.


You mean like the Pacers doctors did with Maggette! There was no problem with Maggette. They botched the call. He's played ever since.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 11:24 AM
You mean like the Pacers doctors did with Maggette! There was no problem with Maggette. They botched the call. He's played ever since.
Thank goodness he didn't play for the Pacers.

imawhat
06-27-2011, 11:24 AM
I'm assuming he failed the physical because somebody didn't want him here.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 11:36 AM
I don't care about West's age, as has been pointed out many times, he's played WAY less games than Dwight Howard or LeBron, which is more important. The injury would worry me if I was the GM, but I don't see a point to speculate about it now - if there's a deal then medical staff will check it out, and if there's a problem the deal will be off. So what useful could we possibly say

He is still a 31 years old player with a reconstructed knee, I remember the times doctors told JO that he was fine just to see him coming out of the game because his knee wasn't healthy enough, let's not forget about Greg Oden and how the doctors told him that he was almost ready to play to find out that he was going to be out for another year, let's trust the doctor my ***.

ballism
06-27-2011, 11:36 AM
I don't know what really happened there with Maggette, but tbh overall I'd rather see our medics on the safe side.
I'd rather pass on a Tyson Chandler once in ten years than end up committing to an Ilgauskas or Brandon Roy.

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 11:38 AM
I don't see it being anywhere close to 6.5 mil if there is even one in the new CBA.

Max MLE was 5.85 in 2009-10. Using Ron Artest as an example beings he is on a MLE as of 2009-10 signing with the Lakers. He just made 6.3mil and is due to make 6.790 this coming year 2011-12.

I understand that MLE may take a pay cut but the standard across the board should be the same. Everyone will take a cut, not just MLE.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 11:39 AM
You admit West is like Tyler, so why pay 9 mil a year to 31yo player coming off an injury? I'd rather see the Pacers pay that kind of money to someone young not coming off an injury with a different type of game, "D" & reb, that compliments Hibbert. I rather pass & look in a different direction.
You must have selective reading problems.

Tyler plays like him but he is not close to being equal to him IMO.

The Pnp and Pnr works well with Collison and I think that also helps Hibbert out in playing in the low post. Its apart of our team offense which I think needs to be consistent. Tyler doesn't do it well enough yet which is why I like West more.

Would I like to sign a pf/c instead of West? Sure but that list is very limited and the only guy I would want would be Chandler and even he has some very big concerns in a team offense.

These arguments to me are all about realistic options. We can all say we want a pf who can also play backup center and rebound at a high level in addtion to being a offensive threat BUT HOW MANY OF THOSE GUYS EXIST?

OF course that would also by my first option over West too but I don't think its realistic at all.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 11:43 AM
Do I care much about fit with Hibbert? I suppose so, if Hibbert is a cornerstone. But honestly, I'd rather have a real talent like West and figure it out. Hibbert is expendable to me in that situation.

So a 24 years old healthy center is expendable because we signed a 31 going 32 years old player with a reconstructed knee as part of our core? Damn.........

dustinpurvis
06-27-2011, 11:48 AM
So a 24 years old healthy center is expendable because we signed a 31 going 32 years old player with a reconstructed knee as part of our core? Damn.........

D.O.B.: August 29, 1980--he's going on 31, not 32, for what it's worth.

ballism
06-27-2011, 11:58 AM
So a 24 years old healthy center is expendable because we signed a 31 going 32 years old player with a reconstructed knee as part of our core? Damn.........

Nothing to do with West.
There's a couple of centers even in this free agency that I'd happily take over Hibbert whether we sign West or not.

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 12:00 PM
Hey, If we can get the old stiff leg for like 3 year 27mil with a second and third year team option. I'd be ok with that. I just don't want to see the Pacers getting stuck with another Dunleavey where he comes back 1/2 the player he was. Especially when we know ahead of time.

graphic-er
06-27-2011, 12:05 PM
I'd be very cautious about signing West. His knee is going to be very prone to injury again, especially at the age of 31. We need a Dale Davis type of PF. Rebounder who plays defense. We got our low post offense with Hibbert. Its pretty clear to see that the Pacers do not need another Pick and pop guy who is not strong defensively. Hansbrough wouldn't even box out on a consistent basis last year. It really hurt us on both the offensive glass and defensive end with the opponents getting easy put backs.

duke dynamite
06-27-2011, 12:11 PM
I'll take West.

Since86
06-27-2011, 12:20 PM
the current MLE is 6.2mil and it will increase for next year as aways. It will be approx. 6.5mil. with each year having an increase in salary!

You're assuming there will even be a MLE next season. It might get done away with.

xIndyFan
06-27-2011, 12:26 PM
. . . I understand that MLE may take a pay cut but the standard across the board should be the same. Everyone will take a cut, not just MLE.

this is off topic, :o

the MLE is determined by the 'average' salary of the previous season. as salaries go down, the MLE will go down. but not right away. if the new salary cap was 25% lower starting this summer, it wouldn't make any difference to the MLE this summer. next summer the MLE would be down maybe 5%, 10% or so the next summer after that and gradually it would catch up to the new reduced salary cap number. but the MLE is a trailing indicator since it is based on contracts that were signed in the last 5 yrs instead of the new contracts.

if the MLE is included in the new CBA, it gives the teams over the cap a chance to offer contracts way above the average of the new salary cap. which would not be a good thing for the pacers. pacer fans need to hope the MLE is a thing of the past.

crazylikeafox
06-27-2011, 01:06 PM
Uhh. My statement was best OFFENSIVE game. He is a more skilled offensive post player than Jermaine. I still stand by that. I never compared the two defensively.

I also think that Kendrick Perkins, Al Harrington, Al Jefferson and even an old school player like Bob Lanier all on top of Nene's success at least counter balance your theory here. I agree it does not happen often and it worries me but most of those examples were later in their careers. Manning is different and definitely wasn't the same but still was enough to be an All Star two more times and played like 900 or so games after.

The point is, the knee injury lessons the cost. I am not clamoring for a max deal here (which he would have gotten otherwise). 9-11 mill and 4-5 years feels right to me. Anything less than that is just gravy IMO.

Again, I'm not 100% sold but I think this is something to *seriously* consider and position ourselves for.

West is not in his prime he is past it at age 31. 9-11 millions is way too much, it would be a semi-albatross by the end of it and really wouldn't position us for anything. West is not the defender we NEED at PF, he may bring offense but I think Tyler with his ability to get to the FT and his much improved 10-18 ft jumper will be just fine for offense. Where we need to get better at PF is on defense, and I don't think West is that at his advancing age along with his knee injury.

crazylikeafox
06-27-2011, 01:18 PM
Good news for us if he opts out. Better to have more options in the marketplace. And it opens up the possibility that someone may salary dump a contract on us if they want to go after West. Think the Sixers dumping Rodney Carney with a pick to make room for Brand a few years back.



I missed this before. Yes to Chuck Hayes! If there's any free agent I'm ready to overpay this year, it's the Chuckwagon. Don't we want defense and rebounding at the PF spot? Chuck's our man then :D

Chuckwagon also a very good passer out of the post!

crazylikeafox
06-27-2011, 01:30 PM
Can we stop with the "we only won 37 games mantra". I know its technically accurate but it doesn't factor in JOB and his negative influence and its a weak argument to make IMO.

David West would be consistent and yes he does replicate what Tyler does but he is better at the moment and what we needed most from Tyler was consistency which West would bring.

I think 3 years is a good contract for a guy like West and I don't see him getting more than 9 mill per.


This is a valid point but Milsap and other PF's have the same concerns IMO.

Lets also not forget that Chris Paul was injuried in 09/10. He played 45 games and the guy backing him up was our own Darren Collison. Did you see his numbers drop of signficantly when Collison took over?

Tyler just completed his 2nd year after missing almost all of his 1st year. Tyler was very consistent in college and I believe that consistency will show up. West would be redundant at 9 Million more a year.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 01:39 PM
Tyler just completed his 2nd year after missing almost all of his 1st year. Tyler was very consistent in college and I believe that consistency will show up. West would be redundant at 9 Million more a year.
I think he will become consistent in time but I am not sure its next year. LIke I said before if we sign West to a 3 year deal then trade him on year 3 if Tyler pans out. IF not then we look to another starting PF. IF Tyler pans out sooner than later then you still have a reasonable asset in Dwest that is very tradeable with a three year contract.

Pacer Fan
06-27-2011, 01:44 PM
this is off topic, :o

the MLE is determined by the 'average' salary of the previous season. as salaries go down, the MLE will go down. but not right away. if the new salary cap was 25% lower starting this summer, it wouldn't make any difference to the MLE this summer. next summer the MLE would be down maybe 5%, 10% or so the next summer after that and gradually it would catch up to the new reduced salary cap number. but the MLE is a trailing indicator since it is based on contracts that were signed in the last 5 yrs instead of the new contracts.

if the MLE is included in the new CBA, it gives the teams over the cap a chance to offer contracts way above the average of the new salary cap. which would not be a good thing for the pacers. pacer fans need to hope the MLE is a thing of the past.

and you quoted for what reason, your not telling me nothing I don't already know. I think you should have been quoting someone else.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 01:48 PM
I think he will become consistent in time but I am not sure its next year. LIke I said before if we sign West to a 3 year deal then trade him on year 3 if Tyler pans out. IF not then we look to another starting PF. IF Tyler pans out sooner than later then you still have a reasonable asset in Dwest that is very tradeable with a three year contract.

Who would want to trade for a 35/36 years old PF at the end of his contract? By that time the guy is going to be thinking about retiring.

crazylikeafox
06-27-2011, 01:51 PM
I think he will become consistent in time but I am not sure its next year. LIke I said before if we sign West to a 3 year deal then trade him on year 3 if Tyler pans out. IF not then we look to another starting PF. IF Tyler pans out sooner than later then you still have a reasonable asset in Dwest that is very tradeable with a three year contract.

That is only if West comes back and shows no ill effects from his injury, this is questionable with this injury at his age. We could very well be stuck with another bad contract just like we have been. Which is why I say pass on West.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 01:56 PM
Thank goodness he didn't play for the Pacers.


We will disagree. He would have been better than the 2 half year rentals that came out of trading Artest... Peja and Harrington. Should I mention whoever Harrington was traded to GS for and their albatross contract that took 4 years to expire. Just remember what you are thanking for!

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 01:57 PM
I am baffled here that people think Tyler is David West only much cheaper. I can't really compute this. Tyler isn't anywhere NEAR the skill West has. And don't give me this 3rd year thing. Tyler played all 4 years in College. He isn't going to go *too* much further than he is right now.

I also am sick of reading how he will be our Elton Brand. If we signed West to a max contract and THEN he blew his knee... maybe. But how is that the scenario here?

8 or 9 million per season over 3 or 4 years isn't Elton Brand! Jesus. Elton was payed 16 last season and is owed 17 and 18 million over the next 2 years. Last I checked thats about double what we'd pay West.

Math is a *****.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 02:02 PM
Who would want to trade for a 35/36 years old PF at the end of his contract? By that time the guy is going to be thinking about retiring.
Try to keep the number right here. He will play this year at age 31 under a new contract. IF its a 3 year contract and we trade him after the second year then that would make him 33/34 not 34/35. Expirings are still worth something and I know most people are down on them but they will have more value when a new CBA isn't being hashed out.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 02:09 PM
I'm assuming he failed the physical because somebody didn't want him here.


Bird had a man crush and Peja. He wanted to trade Artest the year b4 for Peja. Yep, that half year rental who was injured for the playoffs. Bird knew up front Peja had a player option the following year, and had to have him.
IIRC, Maggette had a 2 years left on his contract at 6-7 mil.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Try to keep the number right here. He will play this year at age 31 under a new contract. IF its a 3 year contract and we trade him after the second year then that would make him 33/34 not 34/35. Expirings are still worth something and I know most people are down on them but they will have more value when a new CBA isn't being hashed out.

No offense but I think your man crush on West is not letting you see the big picture, if we are going to sign an OK player I rather sign Landry then, he is at least young.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 02:25 PM
You must have selective reading problems.

Tyler plays like him but he is not close to being equal to him IMO.

The Pnp and Pnr works well with Collison and I think that also helps Hibbert out in playing in the low post. Its apart of our team offense which I think needs to be consistent. Tyler doesn't do it well enough yet which is why I like West more.

Would I like to sign a pf/c instead of West? Sure but that list is very limited and the only guy I would want would be Chandler and even he has some very big concerns in a team offense.

These arguments to me are all about realistic options. We can all say we want a pf who can also play backup center and rebound at a high level in addtion to being a offensive threat BUT HOW MANY OF THOSE GUYS EXIST?

OF course that would also by my first option over West too but I don't think its realistic at all.



Not selective reading, but poor word usage. That's my fault. I stand by my post.

Andy Varejao still exists the last time checked. He's a more viable option than Nene, Chandler, etc. I don't see either leaving their current team.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 02:25 PM
No offense but I think your man crush on West is not letting you see the big picture, if we are going to sign an OK player I rather sign Landry then, he is at least young.
:laugh:

If there is another pnp guy out there that we could get without giving up a big asset then I do it. I would take Milsap over West if it cost us expirings and Rush. You know that aint going to happen so thats why I like West.

Landry is 27 and will soon be 28. Thats not exactly young. ITs younger but not young and his upside is no longer in play. West is a better player if healthy. He rebounds more and more importantly to me is that he doesn't need to be down low with Hibbert to be effective.

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 02:28 PM
Nothing to do with West.
There's a couple of centers even in this free agency that I'd happily take over Hibbert whether we sign West or not.



BUT are they "truly realistic" options or fantasy? I surmise you are referring to Nene and Chandler. Anyone else?

90'sNBARocked
06-27-2011, 02:29 PM
With Hibbert at Center we need a strong rebounder. I dont think that description fits either West or Laundry

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 02:31 PM
Not selective reading, but poor word usage. That's my fault. I stand by my post.

Andy Varejao still exists the last time checked. He's a more viable option than Nene, Chandler, etc. I don't see either leaving their current team.
I would be happy with Varejao but what would it take to get him and is he on the trading block? If he is cheap then I would be happy with that pick up but I doubt he would be cheap.

I don't think we have anything that we would be willing to part with to get Varejao.

PaulGeorge
06-27-2011, 02:39 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors

According to Mike Wells of the Indianapolis Star, the Pacers have free-agent-to-be Carl Landry on their radar.

As noted earlier Monday, David West is also a potential target for the team in free agency.

If the Pacers grab one or both of these power forwards and they don't re-sign with New Orleans, it would leave the Hornets thin on the frontline.

The Pacers do have the benefit of ample cap room and they made the playoffs last season, so such factors could entice either player.

The signing of either Landry or West could put PF Josh McRoberts' future in jeopardy with the Pacers as well, as he'll be a free agent this offseason, too.

--------------------------------------------------------
Won't let me post a new thread. I'm not a big Landry fan. I'm not even sure i see him as a starter considering tylers numbers we're just as good as Landrys last season

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 02:41 PM
I'd be very cautious about signing West. His knee is going to be very prone to injury again, especially at the age of 31. We need a Dale Davis type of PF. Rebounder who plays defense. We got our low post offense with Hibbert. Its pretty clear to see that the Pacers do not need another Pick and pop guy who is not strong defensively. Hansbrough wouldn't even box out on a consistent basis last year. It really hurt us on both the offensive glass and defensive end with the opponents getting easy put backs.


Couldn't agree more. I'll say this, Bird has his work cut out for him finding a good quality starting PF with a reasonable price tag this off season. It may just be he won't be able to.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 02:43 PM
I like West, I'm leary of


4.) a player who plays with CP3

On #4, CP3 makes guys better, so how good is West outside of being with CP3. It's the Shawn Marion/Nash factor for me. Marion looked like an allstar with Nash, then without him, prior to Dallas, he looked pedestrian or maybe just 'good'. I don't want THE MOVE to be for a guy who isn't as good as we think without CP3.

What I love about West is he's a scorer and a vet. I'm not down on him, these are just my concerns.

Here are Wests numbers post all star break when Chris Paul got hurt two seasons ago :

37.3 Minutes per Game
20.8 Pts
7.4 Rebs
4.0 Assists
1.2 Steals
.8 Blocks

Pretty impressive right? I wonder who the Point Guard was for the Hornets at that time? Hmmm....

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5agLgs_9U70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Justin Tyme
06-27-2011, 02:44 PM
You're assuming there will even be a MLE next season. It might get done away with.


That's my thinking as well. When this new CBA finally gets worked out, a number of thing that are now won't be in the future.

CableKC
06-27-2011, 02:50 PM
I would be happy with Varejao but what would it take to get him and is he on the trading block? If he is cheap then I would be happy with that pick up but I doubt he would be cheap.

I don't think we have anything that we would be willing to part with to get Varejao or Josh Smith
Fixed.

I'd also like to add that if Nene comes on the market...just like Chandler....we'd have to overpay them to get them on this Team. At least for either of them...it would be up to the FO to overpay them....and it would be up to the Player ( not their Former Team ) to decide what to do.

I guess my 1st choice was to make a run at Tyson Chandler and then Kris Humphries. Both are offensively challenged as well ( as in, you don't want to rely on them to score for you but can be a garbageman scorer a la Foster ). I still would prefer Humprhries as he is a comparable rebounder and shotblocker...but could be had IMHO for a cheaper price tag then Tyson Chandler.

ballism
06-27-2011, 02:51 PM
BUT are they "truly realistic" options or fantasy? I surmise you are referring to Nene and Chandler. Anyone else?

Lets not rush ahead of ourselves. You won't fill all the holes in one free agency. If you were hoping for it, you will be dissappointed. Even with West, you may or may not want him, but Pacers won't be the only team looking.

The point is, Hibbert right now is a below average starting big man. West is above average. If you get West, you adjust to West. If you spend a year and Hibbert is still the same inconsistent mental wreck, just package him for Varejao or somebody.

docpaul
06-27-2011, 02:57 PM
Given the options, and these assumptions:


West expects >10m per year for 4 or more years
Our core team sticks as has been broadly reported (ie, Hibbert, Collison, Granger, George are all fixtures)
Humphries isn't a contract year fluke
Landry is who he is as far as defensive potential
Varejao is available for a pick, a piece, and expirings as I believe were also reported not too long ago

Then I'd rank the options as:

Varejao > Humphries > West > Landry > McRoberts

I don't think we need a dominant offensive presence at the 4, and my gut tells me that Hibbert will figure things out offensively in the next two years. I think the goal should be to complement Hibbert, not replicate him. That is, if/until we find a long term viable alternative to him, which will be very very difficult, IMO.

West, unless we can get him for under 7-8/year seems like a bad risk:reward ratio given what he can command in the free market. I hope the Nets get hamstrung with him, as the Bulls did with Boozer.

I think Boozer is what is going to keep the Bulls team from being a long term championship competitor. I don't want to see that same scenario here in Indy.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 03:00 PM
I think is funny that some people want to put and older messed up West together with an older injury prone Tyson Chandler:laugh: if they couldn't do it together with CP3 what makes you guys think that they can do it now three years later? This is just getting ridiculous.

I would also like to point out that West WAS A GOOD PLAYER, past , we don't know how good or healthy he is going to be, man this reminds me of "the Mike Dunleavy is going to be the 18ppg player again after three years talk" :rolleyes:

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 03:00 PM
West is great offensively but is not very good on D! If Bird wants to sign a player who only adds to one side of the ball - please be defense! West does not compliment Hibbert or Tyler (who are both better offensively).
Somebody on the interior needs to play D. The Pacers wont get much with Hibbert, West, and Tyler.

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Given the options, and these assumptions:


West expects >10m per year for 4 or more years
Our core team sticks as has been broadly reported (ie, Hibbert, Collison, Granger, George are all fixtures)
Humphries isn't a contract year fluke
Landry is who he is as far as defensive potential
Varejao is available for a pick, a piece, and expirings as I believe were also reported not too long ago

Then I'd rank the options as:

Varejao > Humphries > West > Landry > McRoberts

I don't think we need a dominant offensive presence at the 4, and my gut tells me that Hibbert will figure things out offensively in the next two years. I think the goal should be to complement Hibbert, not replicate him. That is, if/until we find a long term viable alternative to him, which will be very very difficult, IMO.

West, unless we can get him for under 7-8/year seems like a bad risk:reward ratio given what he can command in the free market. I hope the Nets get hamstrung with him, as the Bulls did with Boozer.

I think Boozer is what is going to keep the Bulls team from being a long term championship competitor. I don't want to see that same scenario here in Indy.

Great synopsis here. We could probably get a good defensive PF with limited offensive skills for a lot less than a pick and filler. After July first, we wont even need to add filler.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 03:20 PM
Given the options, and these assumptions:


West expects >10m per year for 4 or more years
Our core team sticks as has been broadly reported (ie, Hibbert, Collison, Granger, George are all fixtures)
Humphries isn't a contract year fluke
Landry is who he is as far as defensive potential
Varejao is available for a pick, a piece, and expirings as I believe were also reported not too long ago
Then I'd rank the options as:

Varejao > Humphries > West > Landry > McRoberts

.
Our options are weighted on a what we give up. Is Varejao worth a future first in 2012 and a piece? Honestly I don't know but it depends on who that first round pick was. In next years draft that could easily be a Varejoa level player in a couple of years IMO.

Honestly I think we pick whoever the Nets don't and I am ok with that if it means not overpaying for a guy. Why would the Nets pick West over Humphiries and would Humphiries come here?

IF the Nets pick West you had better believe that we would be in a bidding war with the Hornets for Landry.

ksuttonjr76
06-27-2011, 03:23 PM
Granger is getting old, so we need to trade him.

West is older than Granger, but we're willing to give him 3-4 contract after writing Tyler off after 1 1/2 season?

West and Hansbrough are roughly the same weight/height, but Tyler is "undersized" at the PF position?

You gotta love this forum.

Unclebuck
06-27-2011, 03:24 PM
I'm not saying I don't want West. But I don't think he's as good as it seemed when he was in New Orleans playing with Chris Paul. He's good and wo8uld be a nice addition to our team. But with his age (31) and his aparent contract demands, I would be perfectly fine if the pacers pass on him, nor would I be mad if they did sign him.

His scoring would help us, no doubt, but the rest of his game is average at best. he would not solve our interior defensive problems.

ksuttonjr76
06-27-2011, 03:27 PM
Our options are weighted on a what we give up. Is Varejao worth a future first in 2012 and a piece? Honestly I don't know but it depends on who that first round pick was. In next years draft that could easily be a Varejoa level player in a couple of years IMO.

Honestly I think we pick whoever the Nets don't and I am ok with that if it means not overpaying for a guy. Why would the Nets pick West over Humphiries and would Humphiries come here?

IF the Nets pick West you had better believe that the we would be in a bidding war with the Hornets for Landry.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2419/anderson-varejao

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm

Hell *****ing yeah he's worth a 1st rounder and a filler. I'm trying to STAY in playoff contention.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 03:31 PM
Granger is getting old, so we need to trade him.

West is older than Granger, but we're willing to give him 3-4 contract after writing Tyler off after 1 1/2 season?

West and Hansbrough are roughly the same weight/height, but Tyler is "undersized" at the PF position?

You gotta love this forum.

Don't forget the Tony Parker is too old talk either (29);)

Larry Staverman
06-27-2011, 03:47 PM
West just had surgery April 12.

He may play next year but his knee won't be back to full strength until the season after next.

CooperManning
06-27-2011, 03:51 PM
After thinking more about it, I decidedly don't want David West. I just don't see why he'd be preferable to Humphries.

- West will cost more.
- West is five years older.
- West is coming off a major knee injury that historically has hurt the careers of other big men.
- Humphries plays better D.
- Humphries is a much better rebounder.
- Humphries is a better shot blocker.

West is obviously a better scorer, but how much more scoring does our starting unit need? DC/PG/Danny/Roy? DC is a scoring 1, Paul's offensive game will improve over the next couple years, Danny is good for at least 20/game and Roy is an offensive-minded big. We need a garbageman like Humphries in at the 4 with that unit. We have Tyler who can get in there and score if we need him to. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of having two guys at the 4 who do different things.

If you want West, that means you're cool with Tyler getting 16-18 minutes a game or less. West hasn't played less than 35 min/game in 5 years. Maybe he goes down to 30-32, but he won't get less than that and he and Tyler can't be on the floor together. I doubt this would bode well with Tyler's longterm future as a Pacer. Tyler wants to play.

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 03:57 PM
After thinking more about it, I decidedly don't want David West. I just don't see why he'd be preferable to Humphries.

- West will cost more.
- West is five years older.
- West is coming off a major knee injury that historically has hurt the careers of other big men.
- Humphries plays better D.
- Humphries is a much better rebounder.
- Humphries is a better shot blocker.

West is obviously a better scorer, but how much more scoring does our starting unit need? DC/PG/Danny/Roy? DC is a scoring 1, Paul's offensive game will improve over the next couple years, Danny is good for at least 20/game and Roy is an offensive-minded big. We need a garbageman like Humphries in at the 4 with that unit. We have Tyler who can get in there and score if we need him to. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of having two guys at the 4 who do different things.

If you want West, that means you're cool with Tyler getting 16-18 minutes a game or less. West hasn't played less than 35 min/game in 5 years. Maybe he goes down to 30-32, but he won't get less than that and he and Tyler can't be on the floor together. I doubt this would bode well with Tyler's longterm future as a Pacer. Tyler wants to play.

I would agree that Humphries seems to be a better fit than West. I want a defensive minded 4. I am guessing we could pry one away from another team and will not have to spend the money needed to get Humphries. Besides, isnt he the guy who just decided to play in his contract year?

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 03:58 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2419/anderson-varejao

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm

Hell *****ing yeah he's worth a 1st rounder and a filler. I'm trying to STAY in playoff contention.
I highly doubt that the Cavs couldn't find a better deal than a late teen early 20 pick and filler from another team. The orginal post was a first rounder, piece and expirings. I didn't quote it all because I figured most people could remember what was said 3 post ago.

I think in order to get Varejao the Pacers would have to give up a first and Tyler. THey of course wouldn't want Tyler but thats the level of player that I think gets the deal done IMO.

CooperManning
06-27-2011, 04:02 PM
I would agree that Humphries seems to be a better fit than West. I want a defensive minded 4. I am guessing we could pry one away from another team and will not have to spend the money needed to get Humphries. Besides, isnt he the guy who just decided to play in his contract year?

He put up good numbers (per-36 wise) in a backup role in his other seasons, the problem was he was backing up Boozer, Bosh, and Dirk before he got to NJ. Hard to get more than 10-13 min/game with those guys ahead of you on the depth chart. I think this could even be an added bonus of getting him. He could still step up his game and he doesn't have as many NBA minutes on his body as other guys.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 04:03 PM
I highly doubt that the Cavs couldn't find a better deal than a late teen early 20 pick and filler from another team. The orginal post was a first rounder, piece and expirings. I didn't quote it all because I figured most people could remember what was said 3 post ago.

I think in order to get Varejao the Pacers would have to give up a first and Tyler. THey of course wouldn't want Tyler but thats the level of player that I think gets the deal done IMO.

Whatever we give away to get Varejao is going to be way less than signing a broken down player to a long contract.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 04:08 PM
Whatever we give away to get Varejao is going to be way less than signing a broken down player to a long contract.

Ugh.

4 years isn't long.

8-9 million isn't breaking the bank.

And we wouldn't sign David West if he were "broken down". We have these things called doctors who would look into everything and make sure he's worth the risk for the HUGE discount we would get in signing him.

Now IF we signed him to some long term Elton brand type deal that some have suggested then OF COURSE I agree with you all. But that's just not going to happen. No way do we throw that kind of money and years around here.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 04:13 PM
I'm not saying I don't want West. But I don't think he's as good as it seemed when he was in New Orleans playing with Chris Paul.


I showed his stats without Paul earlier in this thread. Don't know if you caught it. But his numbers actually went up without Paul. And the PG who's numbers they actually went up with?

Darren Collison of course.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 04:16 PM
I highly doubt that the Cavs couldn't find a better deal than a late teen early 20 pick and filler from another team. The orginal post was a first rounder, piece and expirings. I didn't quote it all because I figured most people could remember what was said 3 post ago.

I think in order to get Varejao the Pacers would have to give up a first and Tyler. THey of course wouldn't want Tyler but thats the level of player that I think gets the deal done IMO.

While we are talking about Tyler here why not put him into a deal for Josh Smith? Tyler + Rush + next years #1 for Josh Smith I am pretty damn certain nabs you you our defensive minded, shot blocking, rebounding, all star PF who compliments the ENTIRE team better and was even once an Indiana Hoosier recruit.

Just sayin'

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 04:18 PM
He put up good numbers (per-36 wise) in a backup role in his other seasons, the problem was he was backing up Boozer, Bosh, and Dirk before he got to NJ. Hard to get more than 10-13 min/game with those guys ahead of you on the depth chart. I think this could even be an added bonus of getting him. He could still step up his game and he doesn't have as many NBA minutes on his body as other guys.
Honestly Kris doesn't excite me at all. This was his first year where he shot 50% or better. Last year he only grabed 6.4 rebounds/game. This year he got 10 and only played 7 more minutes. Either he developed his game or he was more motivated ie contract year. I am not sure how much he would cost but I don't see him as a big improvement over the rest of the guys mentioned.

CableKC
06-27-2011, 04:18 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2419/anderson-varejao

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm

Hell *****ing yeah he's worth a 1st rounder and a filler. I'm trying to STAY in playoff contention.
SideShow Bob is going to cost more then a 1st round pick, BRush and filler that we don't care to give up ( anybody not named Granger/DC/PG/Hansbrough/Hibbert/GH ).

CooperManning
06-27-2011, 04:23 PM
4 years isn't long.

8-9 million isn't breaking the bank.


If we signed D-West to a 4 year deal at $9 mil/season, that would make him the only player under contract for the 2014/2015 season. During that time we'll almost certainly be doling out contract extensions to Roy Hibbert, George Hill, and Paul George and likely giving them to DC and Hansbrough as well. Not to mention Granger, whose contract expires after the 2013/2014 season.

So sign D-West or not, but 4 years is a long time for a 31 year old with knee problems. If he's good throughout his entire contract, great. But if after year two he blows his knee out again, he will lose all trade value and will be a major roadblock in our ability to keep our guys/sign a free agent to help.

Gamble1
06-27-2011, 04:24 PM
While we are talking about Tyler here why not put him into a deal for Josh Smith? Tyler + Rush + next years #1 for Josh Smith I am pretty damn certain nabs you you our defensive minded, shot blocking, rebounding, all star PF who compliments the ENTIRE team better and was even once an Indiana Hoosier recruit.

Just sayin'
If thats what it takes then I would do it.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 04:24 PM
SideShow Bob is going to cost more then a 1st round pick, BRush and filler that we don't care to give up ( anybody not named Granger/DC/PG/Hansbrough/Hibbert/GH ).

So what if he cost that much? If we expect him to be the starter and complement Hibbert we better be ready to spend money or trade some guys we don't want to trade.

Since86
06-27-2011, 04:28 PM
While we are talking about Tyler here why not put him into a deal for Josh Smith? Tyler + Rush + next years #1 for Josh Smith I am pretty damn certain nabs you you our defensive minded, shot blocking, rebounding, all star PF who compliments the ENTIRE team better and was even once an Indiana Hoosier recruit.

Just sayin'

I agree with you with the notion that DC isn't as bad as some would like to paint, but you also need to factor in that his (D West) numbers might have went up more because he became a more focal point in the offense. That has nothing to do with the abilities of the person passing the ball, but rather their lack of abilities to pass to others.

CP3 can get into the middle and make a play where there seemed to be none. It creates something out of nothing.

DC doesn't have that ability, so they have to run more plays/sets. And with that comes structure and emphasis.

It shifted from a PnR situation where all options are available, to a PnR where only two,maybe three, options are available.

I guess I could just say I agree with the point of your argument, not just the path you've taken to get there.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 04:34 PM
If we signed D-West to a 4 year deal at $9 mil/season, that would make him the only player under contract for the 2014/2015 season. During that time we'll almost certainly be doling out contract extensions to Roy Hibbert, George Hill, and Paul George and likely giving them to DC and Hansbrough as well. Not to mention Granger, whose contract expires after the 2013/2014 season.

So sign D-West or not, but 4 years is a long time for a 31 year old with knee problems. If he's good throughout his entire contract, great. But if after year two he blows his knee out again, he will lose all trade value and will be a major roadblock in our ability to keep our guys/sign a free agent to help.

Fair enough... to a degree.

If for some reason he does blow his knee out again then we have a 9 million dollar expiring contract on our hands. I don't think thats too awful in the end.

But of course (I admit) that's kind of an unfair argument since any player that we sign that doesn't pan out becomes an expiring contract eventually right? I just don't view 4 years (or hell maybe even 3 years if were lucky) as a liability at under 10 million a season.

Again, hes not my first choice. And I only want him if we can get the discount I think we can. But people clamoring for Nene and Gasol I think are just unrealistic. As much as I wish they weren't.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 04:44 PM
Ugh.

4 years isn't long.

8-9 million isn't breaking the bank.

And we wouldn't sign David West if he were "broken down". We have these things called doctors who would look into everything and make sure he's worth the risk for the HUGE discount we would get in signing him.

Now IF we signed him to some long term Elton brand type deal that some have suggested then OF COURSE I agree with you all. But that's just not going to happen. No way do we throw that kind of money and years around here.
4 years for a 31 years old player isn't long? That is really long I we don't even know if the guy can play like he used too, is going to take him at least a year to recover 100% just like Brand few years ago and by that time his contract is pretty much toxic.

Triangle
06-27-2011, 04:48 PM
I'd really like my starting frontcourt to average a combined 15 rpg. David West is not the answer. I'd rather overpay for a guy like DeAndre Jordan or Tyson Chandler. The Pacers dont need another post scorer, they need a Defender and REBOUNDER to take the dirty work pressure off of Roy much like Dale Davis took that responsibility next to Rik.

If the player that the Pacers go out and get can play minutes next to Tyler as a Center, then its an added bonus. But I for one am not looking to add another scorer to the starting lineup. there is only one basketball.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 04:53 PM
4 years for a 31 years old player isn't long? That is really long I we don't even know if the guy can play like he used too, is going to take him at least a year to recover 100% just like Brand few years ago and by that time his contract is pretty much toxic.

His knee will be 100% by November according to all reports. You bring him in, you work him out, you look at his mobility. You talk to his and your own doctors and make an assessment. If those lights are green after doing so then you move forward. If not than you don't.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 04:56 PM
I agree with you with the notion that DC isn't as bad as some would like to paint, but you also need to factor in that his (D West) numbers might have went up more because he became a more focal point in the offense. That has nothing to do with the abilities of the person passing the ball, but rather their lack of abilities to pass to others.

CP3 can get into the middle and make a play where there seemed to be none. It creates something out of nothing.

DC doesn't have that ability, so they have to run more plays/sets. And with that comes structure and emphasis.

It shifted from a PnR situation where all options are available, to a PnR where only two,maybe three, options are available.

I guess I could just say I agree with the point of your argument, not just the path you've taken to get there.

I apologize. I wasn't implying that DC was the reason why West played well. I just was using his numbers as a counter argument to how he is just a product of CP3 and not as good as he looks with him. He looked plenty good without him for 35 games. I think that should end this speculation now.

My reference to DC though is just that if we are looking for an argument of how a player would fit with a Point Guard and thusly determine our/his value then we have an actual situation with those exact two players to go by as reference. And that situation was very positive. They ran the PnR as well as anyone that season and looked deadly together at times.

Jimmy
06-27-2011, 04:57 PM
I'm really interested in the idea of signing West with a front loaded contract. If we can pay him around 15 million the first year that would put us at 54 million in contracts for 12 people next year (including hill). The rest of his contract could be 8, 7, and 6 million for a total of 4yrs at 36 million (same as hornets previous extension offer). Then we could sign foster or mcbob and another player for a smaller contract.

Is this possible??? It wouldn't hurt to have a veteran like West out there at the end of games for offense. And although his defense isn't great, it isn't horrible and he has experience in big time moments at the end of games.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 05:02 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60680

Fun lil' find here

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 05:08 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60680

Fun lil' find here

Whats interesting to me here is that this knee injury isn't likely to affect his Offensive game too much. He is a spot up shooter. That isn't to be lost.

The question though (and it's valid) is how can he work on the defensive end? I know that I'd take him over Tyler or McBob for sure and to bring what he does on the other end this makes sense to me. But its seeming like I am in the minority. Which surprises me to be honest.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 05:21 PM
He put up good numbers (per-36 wise) in a backup role in his other seasons, the problem was he was backing up Boozer, Bosh, and Dirk before he got to NJ. Hard to get more than 10-13 min/game with those guys ahead of you on the depth chart. I think this could even be an added bonus of getting him. He could still step up his game and he doesn't have as many NBA minutes on his body as other guys.

You make a good argument about Kris. I really LOATHED his game two seasons ago and still think he is raw and rather selfish offensively but all in all, he does seem to meet some of the needs we are talking about here.

With this in mind I just can't help but worry that he did this for the contract and that's it. Players tend to show their true colors on and off the court. A man who consistently isolated and broke down the offense against the coaches wishes is the kind of player I can picture stepping up his game when he knows the money is coming. People joke about the Kardashian thing but you don't think she needs serious $$ to be happy? Really?? Call it a hunch.

Not to mention he is one of those *potential* guys who has been on 5 teams (and likely a 6th) in 8 years. There is a reason he kept getting traded. Maybe I'm reading into nothing or maybe there is fire. But the smoke is coming under the door and the handle is hot.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Whats interesting to me here is that this knee injury isn't likely to affect his Offensive game too much. He is a spot up shooter. That isn't to be lost.

We don't need another spot up shooter we need somebody that can play D and get rebounds, if we want another shooter we could sign Troy Murphy back.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 05:37 PM
Here are Wests numbers post all star break when Chris Paul got hurt two seasons ago :

37.3 Minutes per Game
20.8 Pts
7.4 Rebs
4.0 Assists
1.2 Steals
.8 Blocks

Pretty impressive right? I wonder who the Point Guard was for the Hornets at that time? Hmmm....

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5agLgs_9U70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

To bring this fill circle Collison was being guarded by George Hill right there.

CooperManning
06-27-2011, 05:38 PM
I don't think Kim cares at all how much Kris' contract is for, her and her sisters have an multi-million dollar empire. And they're signing a pre-nup (God, I can't believe i know that). The problem will be getting him out of the NYC area. The majority of stars like to divide their time between NYC and LA and Kim having a fiancee that plays in the NYC area is quite convenient for her. Indy? Not so much. Best case scenario is that NJ doesn't want him back, but that seems unlikely. They've said that he's a priority.

Regarding the smoke-there's-fire thing, I really don't buy it. NJ was his 4th team, not 5th. As I mentioned, the other 3 featured Boozer, Bosh, and Dirk. When he played in Utah, Boozer was their guy and then they drafted Millsap so they didn't need him. In Toronto, they didn't think they were losing Bosh so they sent him in a package to Dallas. The Mavs obviously had Dirk so they sent him to NJ.

Even though I've been promoting Humphries lately, I don't think he's the second coming or anything. It's just that he's young, plays a position of need in a style of need and is an unrestricted free agent. Considering how much discussion goes on around here about potential Pacer PFs, I'm just shocked his name doesn't come up more often. I mean he averages twice as many rebounds and blocks as Landry, 1 less point, and Landry is older, yet Landry's name is thrown out constantly. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 05:43 PM
I don't think Kim cares at all how much Kris' contract is for, her and her sisters have an multi-million dollar empire. And they're signing a pre-nup (God, I can't believe i know that). The problem will be getting him out of the NYC area. The majority of stars like to divide their time between NYC and LA and Kim having a fiancee that plays in the NYC area is quite convenient for her. Indy? Not so much. Best case scenario is that NJ doesn't want him back, but that seems unlikely. They've said that he's a priority.

Regarding the smoke-there's-fire thing, I really don't buy it. NJ was his 4th team, not 5th. As I mentioned, the other 3 featured Boozer, Bosh, and Dirk. When he played in Utah, Boozer was their guy and then they drafted Millsap so they didn't need him. In Toronto, they didn't think they were losing Bosh so they sent him in a package to Dallas. The Mavs obviously had Dirk so they sent him to NJ.

Even though I've been promoting Humphries lately, I don't think he's the second coming or anything. It's just that he's young, plays a position of need in a style of need and is an unrestricted free agent. Considering how much discussion goes on around here about potential Pacer PFs, I'm just shocked his name doesn't come up more often. I mean he averages twice as many rebounds and blocks as Landry, 1 less point, and Landry is older, yet Landry's name is thrown out constantly. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The more you try to sell me on Humphries the more I am buying. Not gonna lie.

I guess the question will be for how much? If we could sign both Humphries and Landry for the cost of David West and say Mcbob. I will go on record as saying I am all for that and then some.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 05:43 PM
I don't think Kim cares at all how much Kris' contract is for, her and her sisters have an multi-million dollar empire. And they're signing a pre-nup (God, I can't believe i know that).

And to be clear the only reason I "thanked" that post was because you were able to admit this nugget of information ;)

CooperManning
06-27-2011, 05:48 PM
Hump/Landry/DeAndre stat comparison for anyone who cares.

http://i.imgur.com/iCE1B.png

CableKC
06-27-2011, 05:50 PM
Honestly Kris doesn't excite me at all.

Humphries excite me the same way that Players like Foster and Tyson Chandler excites me ;)

:twss:

Specifically, they are the type of Players that you want on the Team that does everything else that everyone else doesn't. Not every Player that matters nor contributes has to shows up on the top 10 Plays of SportsCenter every other night.


This was his first year where he shot 50% or better. Last year he only grabed 6.4 rebounds/game. This year he got 10 and only played 7 more minutes. Either he developed his game or he was more motivated ie contract year. I am not sure how much he would cost but I don't see him as a big improvement over the rest of the guys mentioned.

This year he got 10 and only played 7 more minutes. Either he developed his game or he was more motivated ie contract year.
Without seeing him play 29 minutes in a non-contract year, I wouldn't say that the reason for his improvement is SOLELY due to him being in a "contract year". There simply isn't something to compare his performance WHILE playing 29 minutes in a "non-contract" year to the 29 minutes per game he played this last season in a "contract" year.

IMHO.....whatever Humprhries did isn't a case like BDiddy where he plays the same # of minutes from year to year then all of a sudden does great in his "contract year".

I'm not saying that playing in a "contract year" MAY NOT BE the primary "motivating" factor....it probably was to a certain degree. I'm saying that I would not dismiss his improvement because he simply hasn't played that many minutes before. I know that it's a matter of opinion....but from what I have seen of the #s that he put up from year to year...as his minutes increased...he put up solid and consistent #s when given the chance.

CableKC
06-27-2011, 05:53 PM
So what if he cost that much? If we expect him to be the starter and complement Hibbert we better be ready to spend money or trade some guys we don't want to trade.
I guess the question is....would you want to give up a core piece to get him?

I have no clue how much he'd cost....but I'm not breaking up my core of Players to get him....unless it was Hansbrough ( maybe...but probably ). Would you give up Granger or PG to get SideShow Bob?

My whole point is that a Player like SideShow Bob is valued and I want to keep that core of Players. Whatever his asking price is...it's going to be IMHO more then some BRush+1st+Filler offer....which essentially is going to be the most I want to give up in any trade.

Trophy
06-27-2011, 06:03 PM
I wouldn't be angry if we were to acquire him for 3 years/27M.

I was all for getting him prior to the knee injury, but my opinion now has changed.

He'd be a gamble due to the severe injury at his age, but we can likely bring in a solid veteran who can fill the needed starting PF spot for a few years.

If another team, however is looking at him too and really likes, I wouldn't jack up the offering to get him. I don't think he's worth more than 10M coming back from this injury and I wouldn't offer him over 7M.

CableKC
06-27-2011, 06:19 PM
I don't think he's worth more than 10M coming back from this injury and I wouldn't offer him over 7M.
Minor thing...but you should check your math.

I wouldn't be angry if we were to acquire him for 3 years/27M.

Trophy
06-27-2011, 06:27 PM
Minor thing...but you should check your math.

I'm a hell of a lot better in math than what I did here. :rolleyes:

I'd probably stick by paying him no more than 7M a year making it 3 years/21M.

I don't know if he'd take that or what other teams might offer, but again he's a gamble and currently, he's not worth more than 10M.

ksuttonjr76
06-27-2011, 06:30 PM
I highly doubt that the Cavs couldn't find a better deal than a late teen early 20 pick and filler from another team. The orginal post was a first rounder, piece and expirings. I didn't quote it all because I figured most people could remember what was said 3 post ago.

I think in order to get Varejao the Pacers would have to give up a first and Tyler. THey of course wouldn't want Tyler but thats the level of player that I think gets the deal done IMO.

Don't try to change your original question of...


Is Varejao worth a future first in 2012 and a piece?

It wasn't about whether or not Cleveland would accept the offer, nor whether it was going to be a core player. Hell...he's still worth the first rounder, piece (Brandon Rush, D. Jones, etc), and an expiring. The only way that I would balk if they were asking for one our core players.

CableKC
06-27-2011, 06:36 PM
I'm a hell of a lot better in math than what I did here. :rolleyes:

I'd probably stick by paying him no more than 7M a year making it 3 years/21M.

I don't know if he'd take that or what other teams might offer, but again he's a gamble and I still wouldn't pay him more than 10M.
Some Team is going to offer him more then a $7 mil a year contract.

Getting a Player like David West will ( admittedly ) keep Teams honest on the offensive end....but won't keep them honest on the defensive end. I want the Smashmouth hard nosed Basketball that I saw during the Playoffs.

If I simply wanted to look for a Starting Quality PF that could score and provide some decent Rebounding...I'd be okay with going after David West. But if we are to go back to Smashmouth Basketball with Vogel ( hint hint Bird...any day now :rolleyes: ), then I wouldn't want David West...I'd sink the same amount of money into Tyson Chandler or somewhat less for Humphries.

Trophy
06-27-2011, 06:42 PM
Some Team is going to offer him more then a $7 mil a year contract.

Getting a Player like David West will ( admittedly ) keep Teams honest on the offensive end....but won't keep them honest on the defensive end. I want the Smashmouth hard nosed Basketball that I saw during the Playoffs.

If I simply wanted to look for a Starting Quality PF that could score and provide some decent Rebounding...I'd be okay with going after David West. But if we are to go back to Smashmouth Basketball with Vogel ( hint hint Bird...any day now :rolleyes: ), then I wouldn't want David West...I'd sink the same amount of money into Tyson Chandler or somewhat less for Humphries.

There's plenty of big men I'd look into getting over David West.

I'd trade for Varejao or making a larger offer for Nene.

I also like Carl Landry who, IMO is a younger version of David West and he even did very well filling in for him in the playoffs.

I like David West, but the injury is a major disappointment because I really wanted him. I don't know, maybe I'd give him up to 9M, but I wouldn't want to be having an auction with other teams for him considering he doesn't have many more seasons to go and no one knows the state of his health.

SMosley21
06-27-2011, 07:24 PM
I'd be comfortable giving West 4 years at about $35 million.

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 07:28 PM
Hump/Landry/DeAndre stat comparison for anyone who cares.

http://i.imgur.com/iCE1B.png


Thanks for that!
I am for Humphries or Jordan. Would settle for either but would prefer Jordan because he is better shot blocker. But, I would prefer either over David West or Paul Milsap. Not even close.

A.B.Hollywood
06-27-2011, 07:37 PM
Thanks for that!
I am for Humphries or Jordan. Would settle for either but would prefer Jordan because he is better shot blocker. But, I would prefer either over David West or Paul Milsap. Not even close.

Clippers seem to be *very* high on Jordan. They wanted to deal Kaman and let him be the center of the future next to Blake.

I still think we throw the bank at Marc Gasol. I have yet to see one single detrimental factor to this man being the next part of our core for the foreseeable future.

SMosley21
06-27-2011, 07:39 PM
Clippers seem to be *very* high on Jordan. They wanted to deal Kaman and let him be the center of the future next to Blake.

I still think we throw the bank at Marc Gasol. I have yet to see one single detrimental factor to this man being the next part of our core for the foreseeable future.

He's a center though, and there's nothing at all about him that says he can play PF next to Hibbert. Memphis did give him the qualifying offer already so they intend on keeping him unless we were to give him some stupid amount of money.

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 07:56 PM
He's a center though, and there's nothing at all about him that says he can play PF next to Hibbert. Memphis did give him the qualifying offer already so they intend on keeping him unless we were to give him some stupid amount of money.

His body is lean and athletic right now and probably is better suited for the PF spot. He is playing C because they have this one guy there(??).

You are right in a sense though, his body will fill out in the next few years and then he will be forced to play C.

PacerDude
06-27-2011, 08:04 PM
I've read quite a bit of this thread - and while there are a lot of arguable points both for and against West, I'll go with the camp that says he's not the right fit for this team.

We need a POWER forward. A rebounder, shot blocker, defender, pick-setter. We have enough guys that like to score, but not enough that will do all the other things necessary to win close games and playoff games. Without mentioning Dale Davis by name (oops) - someone kind of, sort of like him. Who TF that is - I haven't a clue - but a guy like that would nicely fill in an empty spot on this team.

SMosley21
06-27-2011, 08:05 PM
His body is lean and athletic right now and probably is better suited for the PF spot. He is playing C because they have this one guy there(??).

You are right in a sense though, his body will fill out in the next few years and then he will be forced to play C.

Marc Gasol is "lean and athletic"?

This Marc Gasol?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/000/937/113904071_display_image.jpg?1307571631

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 08:12 PM
Marc Gasol is "lean and athletic"?

This Marc Gasol?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/000/937/113904071_display_image.jpg?1307571631

Thought we were talking about Deandre Jordan of the Clips. I am not interested in Gasol.

Will Galen
06-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Maybe I'm reading into nothing or maybe there is fire. But the smoke is coming under the door and the handle is hot.

Where there's smoke there's a fire used to be a great indicater. However, nowadays with the Internet there's smoke about anything and everything which makes it much harder to tell what's going on without having inside information.

SMosley21
06-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Thought we were talking about Deandre Jordan of the Clips. I am not interested in Gasol.

That makes more sense. I was about to say, I have never heard anyone refer to Marc Gasol as "lean and athletic". Deandre Jordan on the other hand fits that description perfectly. In terms of what Larry Bird has said the team needs, Jordan is the blueprint for that. Anyone who is afraid that he couldn't play PF needs to think about the fact that Roy Hibbert plays away from the basket A LOT, so Jordan could easily fill the lane. We don't need him for offensive purposes anyway, other than rebounding. We need his shot blocking ability and physicality.

SMosley21
06-27-2011, 08:26 PM
Here are Wests numbers post all star break when Chris Paul got hurt two seasons ago :

37.3 Minutes per Game
20.8 Pts
7.4 Rebs
4.0 Assists
1.2 Steals
.8 Blocks

Pretty impressive right? I wonder who the Point Guard was for the Hornets at that time? Hmmm....

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5agLgs_9U70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The title of that video is wrong. the lob actually goes to Emeka Okafor if you look closely. West is out at the top of the 3pt line with Blair guarding him.

Karlton
06-27-2011, 10:11 PM
1) Can someone explain to me why a 30/31 year old would opt out of a $7.5M guaranteed contract going into considerable CBA uncertainty and coming off a serious knee injury without a year to prove he's healthy; and

2) Explain why that doesn't worry you about giving him a long-term deal..

sopgy
06-27-2011, 10:19 PM
This is a Pacer move all the way. Bird and Morway are all over him I bet.

He would instantly improve our team in our main position of need. We would be a much better team next season with him, plus Hill. They are thinking to hopefully get him on a good contract and at the least he would be a decent asset.

West is a solid pro and is a mature veteran who can play. Bird will be all over him for probably $8 mil for 3 or 4 years. Teams do not have a lot of cap space this summer to spend, regardless of how the CBA turns out.

West will fill a major leadership role who can back it up as a player. Some athletes are just wired as dedicated and focused on the game. They are generally the best players because they are pros and work hard.

He will really fill out our roster and not mortgage the future on an $9 mil player who can play good ball. (I see him as someone who has the dedication to come back and heal 100%...but you are never positive and you got to take calculated risks sometimes)

C'mon Larry make it happen!

sopgy
06-27-2011, 10:25 PM
1) Can someone explain to me why a 30/31 year old would opt out of a $7.5M guaranteed contract going into considerable CBA uncertainty and coming off a serious knee injury without a year to prove he's healthy; and

2) Explain why that doesn't worry you about giving him a long-term deal..

He is just hedging himself in case he does not come back and have a good year next year. If he slips a bit and is one year older with worse stats, he probably can't get as good as a contract.

Now, he is going to prove to GMs, doctors, and trainers that he is making good rehab progress and try to get at least $7.5 mil for multiple years. He is going to make a pretty good payday ($30-40 million) and it would be silly to risk that much money for an extra 10-20%.

You can't blame the guy for taking the money that is, presumably, on the table.

MillerTime
06-27-2011, 10:26 PM
Thanks for that!
I am for Humphries or Jordan. Would settle for either but would prefer Jordan because he is better shot blocker. But, I would prefer either over David West or Paul Milsap. Not even close.

Hansbrough will be better than Humphries

D-BONE
06-27-2011, 10:30 PM
Per Wojo he already turned down a 3 yr extension offer for 26 million from NO. I think anything over that is arguably overpaying. I'm vary wary of this move - his age, the injury.

troyc11a
06-27-2011, 10:35 PM
Hansbrough will be better than Humphries

I would have to agree with that. But we still need another PF. My preference would be one who could play the 5 as well.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 10:44 PM
Per Wojo he already turned down a 3 yr extension offer for 26 million from NO. I think anything over that is arguably overpaying. I'm vary wary of this move - his age, the injury.

3 and 26? hell no!

sopgy
06-27-2011, 10:47 PM
Per Wojo he already turned down a 3 yr extension offer for 26 million from NO. I think anything over that is arguably overpaying. I'm vary wary of this move - his age, the injury.

Could we do a sign and trade where they sign him to a front loaded contract and we send them over BRush?

They have $42 mil on the books this summer, so maybe they can put the signing bonus into the first year for a salary of like 13/8/8/8?

I don't know if it could work but that would be awesome.

vnzla81
06-27-2011, 10:52 PM
Could we do a sign and trade where they sign him to a front loaded contract and we send them over BRush?

They have $42 mil on the books this summer, so maybe they can put the signing bonus into the first year for a salary of like 13/8/8/8?

I don't know if it could work but that would be awesome.



http://findthepieces.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/no.jpg

CooperManning
06-27-2011, 11:35 PM
Edit: wrong thread.

PacerGuy
06-28-2011, 12:04 AM
1) Can someone explain to me why a 30/31 year old would opt out of a $7.5M guaranteed contract going into considerable CBA uncertainty and coming off a serious knee injury without a year to prove he's healthy; and

2) Explain why that doesn't worry you about giving him a long-term deal..

Very weak FA class. He was suppose to be one of the jewels in this class before his injury. IMO he is hoping someone will pay up long term sight unseen. If he goes out & under-whelms n/y, he will be lost in n/y's class. Risky? Yes, but a calculated & likely smart move.

If I'm Larry, I stay the hell away. Pre-injury, likely Yes, but not now.

Pacerized
06-28-2011, 12:30 AM
Clippers seem to be *very* high on Jordan. They wanted to deal Kaman and let him be the center of the future next to Blake.

I still think we throw the bank at Marc Gasol. I have yet to see one single detrimental factor to this man being the next part of our core for the foreseeable future.

I'd take Gasol over a healthy West, I'd absolutely take him over West coming off a season ending injury.

Gasol can start with Hibbert, you can call it playing Gasol as PF or call it starting 2 centers, but it would work. It's not like they'd be playing together every minute.
For that matter I'd take Kaman over West as well as long as we didn't have to give up too much.

CableKC
06-28-2011, 12:39 AM
Hansbrough will be better than Humphries
And what are basing that on? The 2 players are different types of PFs that contributes in different ways.

CableKC
06-28-2011, 01:22 AM
Hump/Landry/DeAndre stat comparison for anyone who cares.

http://i.imgur.com/iCE1B.png
CooperManning, we are both on the same page on this ;) , but can you do me a favor and compare Tyson Chandler, Kris Humphries and SideShow Bob.

I know that it's not an entirely fair assessment because Humphries only put up these #s in a Contract season....but he's never been given more then 20 minutes prior to this season for the various reasons that ( I think ) you mentioned in another post.

At the very least, my guess is that we can argue that Humphries could be considered a "poor man's" version of Chandler that put up comprable ( if not slightly better ) #s and is likely more affordable then Chandler.

To be fair...if the Pacers were willing to offer Tyson some 4 year / $10 mil per season offer...I'd be cool with that. Before any of you balk at this......IMHO....the only way that the Pacers...much less any Team is going to persuade Chandler to leave a Championship Team is to overpay him while making the Mavs "blink".

neosmndrew
06-28-2011, 01:33 AM
Why are people so high on Humphries? Even in this great contract year, he only averaged 10 and 10. The whole point is we want either a great defender who can play decent defense or a great offensive presence and who can contribute on defense (im talking about bigs here) I feel like Chandler, West, and NeNe are the only ones who fit the bill.

A.B.Hollywood
06-28-2011, 02:54 AM
At the very least, my guess is that we can argue that Humphries could be considered a "poor man's" version of Chandler that put up comprable ( if not slightly better ) #s and is likely more affordable then Chandler.

To be fair...if the Pacers were willing to offer Tyson some 4 year / $10 mil per season offer...I'd be cool with that. Before any of you balk at this......IMHO....the only way that the Pacers...much less any Team is going to persuade Chandler to leave a Championship Team is to overpay him while making the Mavs "blink".

So David West at 3 or 4 years and 8 million per is horrible but Tyson Chandler at 10 million per for 4 years is good? Are you all aware that Tyson has had one, yes ONE good season? Are you aware that the dude had more 3 second violations than assists two years ago? Are you aware that he has been *extremely* injury prone?

Tyson is fine and I'd throw a bit at him but nothing inflates stock more than a great superbowl or finals performance. 10 million a season here is laughable for us and I don't get the logic for one damn second.

Also... Kris Humphries isn't anywhere near the defender Tyson is. So a DIRT poor mans version is more like it :)

A.B.Hollywood
06-28-2011, 02:58 AM
Why are people so high on Humphries? Even in this great contract year, he only averaged 10 and 10. The whole point is we want either a great defender who can play decent defense or a great offensive presence and who can contribute on defense (im talking about bigs here) I feel like Chandler, West, and NeNe are the only ones who fit the bill.

You don't think Marc Gasol fits that bill too? Of all three he has the most potential on both sides here. Especially offensively. He could become a 20+ ppg scorer with ease IMO.

He's my far and away #1 choice of the Free Agents (with Josh Smith #1 overall of *available* PF's)

pacer4ever
06-28-2011, 03:02 AM
Why are people so high on Humphries? Even in this great contract year, he only averaged 10 and 10. The whole point is we want either a great defender who can play decent defense or a great offensive presence and who can contribute on defense (im talking about bigs here) I feel like Chandler, West, and NeNe are the only ones who fit the bill.

well i go to every game and i wouldn't mind seeing her at every game:D..............

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm8/alex1537/Kim_Kardashian-1.jpg

CableKC
06-28-2011, 03:12 AM
So David West at 3 or 4 years and 8 million per is horrible but Tyson Chandler at 10 million per for 4 years is good? Are you all aware that Tyson has had one, yes ONE good season? Are you aware that the dude had more 3 second violations than assists two years ago? Are you aware that he has been *extremely* injury prone?
Well, that's not stopping anyone else from being concerned about making a run for him. My whole point is that ANY Big Man that we are going after that can do any of the things that you want them to do WILL HAVE TO BE overpaid...whether it be Chandler or Nene.


Tyson is fine and I'd throw a bit at him but nothing inflates stock more than a great superbowl or finals performance. 10 million a season here is laughable for us and I don't get the logic for one damn second.
You don't get for one second why a Playoff Bubble Team that is in the market for a Big Man will have to overpay for a Top Tier Free Agent that just won a Championship with a Team that wants to do what they can to keep him?

CooperManning
06-28-2011, 04:25 AM
CooperManning, we are both on the same page on this ;) , but can you do me a favor and compare Tyson Chandler, Kris Humphries and SideShow Bob.

I know that it's not an entirely fair assessment because Humphries only put up these #s in a Contract season....but he's never been given more then 20 minutes prior to this season for the various reasons that ( I think ) you mentioned in another post.

At the very least, my guess is that we can argue that Humphries could be considered a "poor man's" version of Chandler that put up comprable ( if not slightly better ) #s and is likely more affordable then Chandler.

To be fair...if the Pacers were willing to offer Tyson some 4 year / $10 mil per season offer...I'd be cool with that. Before any of you balk at this......IMHO....the only way that the Pacers...much less any Team is going to persuade Chandler to leave a Championship Team is to overpay him while making the Mavs "blink".

Interesting query. Humphries continues to impress statistically against other available bigs. What do you know?

http://i.imgur.com/BZbAI.png

Did AV's 09-10 season since he was injured for most of last season.

ballism
06-28-2011, 05:31 AM
Nets and Pacers both interested in West, reportedly. So for those more interested in Humphries this may also be good news...
Nets don't seem to view him as their long term starter.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_west_opts_out_free_agent_062711

vnzla81
06-28-2011, 06:41 AM
I hope NJ signs him before us.


Potential suitors for free agent David West
New Orleans Hornets | Comments

When healthy, David West has played at or near an All-Star level for several seasons. (Mark L. Baer/US Presswire)
David West, the Hornets’ leading scorer and Chris Paul’s longtime pick-and-pop partner, has opted out of his $7.5 million deal for next season and will test free agency, whenever it actually begins. The move carries a slight risk for West, who is rehabbing from ACL surgery in April, has an uncertain return date and passed up a pile of guaranteed cash and the chance to sign an extension right as the league prepares for a more restrictive collective bargaining environment.

Still, that extension would have used West’s under-market salary as its starting point, and the 30-year-old forward said he is confident in his recovery and intent on finding a team that offers him the best combination of money and a chance to contend. Finding a better package of those things outside of New Orleans might be difficult, though it’s hard to say that with any certainty until we see the specifics of the new CBA — where it puts next seson’s cap number, and whether it offers a market-changing amnesty clause or permits the kinds of sign-and-trade transactions that could broaden West’s market.

Under the current system, the Hornets appear set to be under next season’s cap, but that’s not actually true once you factor in charges tied to incumbent free agents, including West and Carl Landry. Those charges exist because the Hornets, like all teams, are allowed to exceed the cap to re-sign their players, a right most expect to slip into the new CBA in some form. If the Hornets lose both their power forwards without netting adequate replacements, they will have serious trouble making the playoffs in the ultra-competitive Western Conference.

And Landry, as good as he is, isn’t really an adequate replacement for West in the short term. Landry played well in New Orleans after coming over in a midseason trade from Sacramento for Marcus Thornton. His quickness gave the Lakers’ Pau Gasol trouble on both ends of the floor in the first round of the playoffs. He’s not on West’s level as a primary pick-and-roll threat, but he has a decent mid-range jumper, worked well as a face-up threat in the post and showed he can be effective as a cutter away from the ball on pick-and-rolls.

Landry, however, is not on West’s level as a scorer, defender and (especially) rebounder, and New Orleans would feel that drop-off more during the grind of an 82-game season. There’s a reason general manager Dell Demps said he wants West to retire a Hornet.

West wants to win, but the best teams in the league — Miami, Chicago, Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando, Boston, the Lakers — are all capped out, and an amnesty clause would probably be a short-term game-changer for just one of them (Dallas, which already has a pretty good jump-shooting power forward). People will rush to anoint the Thunder as the exception, and they are indeed set to be under the cap. But Oklahoma City is pretty happy with the Kendrick Perkins/Serge Ibaka big-man tandem, and it can’t take on a big long-term deal with Russell Westbrook, James Harden and Ibaka due extensions in the next two years.

Indiana and New Jersey have long been rumored as the most likely West destinations. The Nets might offer the best chance for West to land someplace with an intriguing nucleus. Of course, that depends on their ability to persuade their star point guard (Deron Williams) to stay, a massive “if” the Nets share with the Hornets. The Nets’ cap sheet is clean enough that they might be able to re-sign Williams, add West and have enough space left over a year from now to pursue a third star in free agency (or re-sign Brook Lopez). Signing West would mean saying goodbye to Kris Humphries, but even coming off a double-double season, the power forward (already 26, by the way) is not the type of player who should stand in the way of grander plans.

The New Jersey scenario probably carries more upside than that of Indiana, simply because of Williams. The Pacers have some nice pieces and a hole at power forward, but even with West knocking Tyler Hansbrough into a super-sub role, this would not be a team quite ready to compete with Miami and Chicago. That Pacers team — with Darren Collison, Danny Granger, Paul George, West, Roy Hibbert, Hansbrough and newly acquired George Hill — could well chase 50 or so victories, but that roster does not scream “championship.”

Denver might represent the most intriguing destination, provided it hits the double of re-signing Nene and letting Kenyon Martin walk. Depending on Nene’s new salary, that would leave the Nuggets with roughly $46 million (including money for their two first-round picks, Jordan Hamilton and Kenneth Faried) committed for next season. That leaves a batch of theoretical cap room that would shrink if the Nuggets bring back both Wilson Chandler and Arron Afflalo. The latter is probably a more crucial cog in Denver’s long-term picture. The Nuggets might be able to pull off the triple of re-signing Afflalo, extending Nene and chasing a third big piece. But there’s a lot of uncertainty here.

There are some other intriguing hypothetical fits, depending on next season’s salary cap. The Bucks could use a legitimate power forward and might be able to squeeze enough cap room if they make a few roster tweaks and take advantage of an amnesty clause. (Let’s be very clear here: It’s easy to fantasize about a team like the Bucks clearing some cap space by using amnesty to dump Drew Gooden, but they’d still be required to pay the veteran forward his full salary. Asking a team that borrowed at least $55 million from the NBA last year to pay Gooden $26 million for nothing might be asking too much.)

The Suns could create West-sized space by buying out Vince Carter (a near-certainty) and losing someone like Josh Childress via amnesty, but, again, ownership has not exactly been loose with the purse strings in the last half-decade. The Kings have cap space and the Cavaliers have a trade exception, but neither is close to being a serious contender. The Pistons and Raptors might have enough room for West, but both have crowded frontcourts and unexciting immediate futures.

West isn’t a glamorous star, but he’s a very, very good player — a borderline All-Star every season who can really help a team on both ends of the floor. It matters where he ends up, but he might have trouble finding a place where he can really tilt the championship balance over the next two seasons or so

BringJackBack
06-28-2011, 06:52 AM
I'm going to have to see some tape to make sure that Humphries' rebounds aren't 'Fool's gold', meaning that he's rebounding for a team that doesn't have rebounding ability. For example, Troy Murphy isn't a great rebounder and he averaged a double double for us three years ago. And for the flip side, Paul Milsap is a glass eater and he doesn't average a whole bunch of rebounds because Al Jefferson and AK47 are very good rebounders.

pacer4ever
06-28-2011, 06:56 AM
if he signs with the Bucks via S&T ala David Lee that team would be dangerous.

ensergio
06-28-2011, 06:57 AM
Sign West to a big contract would be a great mistake. Years of rebuilding lost in one defenseless, injured, 31 year old power forward.

Mackey_Rose
06-28-2011, 07:05 AM
Nets and Pacers both interested in West, reportedly. So for those more interested in Humphries this may also be good news...
Nets don't seem to view him as their long term starter.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_west_opts_out_free_agent_062711

If they don't, why should we?

Speed
06-28-2011, 07:45 AM
Humphries is Tyler Hansbrough who is a better rebounder, a worse scorer, to me, they are the same player bsically. Tyler gets to the line at a great pace and plays with intensity all the time. Both can guard the PF position only at an average level. I don't see much of a net gain by likely overpaying Humphries for what Tyler mostly gives you on a rookie scale.

As far as the new CBA, I was listening to the NBA Today ESPN podcast and they had Larry Coon on. He agreed that if the League gets the reduction in BRI (Basketball Related Income) that the max salaries could go down by as much as a third. So instead of 16 million being a max contract, we are talking 11 million. Thats a huge jump, imo.

If West gets all the way healthy, you start to get into a range where you can sign him for a semi reduced rate, I think. Or someone will. Something to think about with the new CBA, if it goes that way.

ballism
06-28-2011, 10:04 AM
I don't get the Humphries hype either. I know there are some stats arguments, but you can find plenty of arguments against. And I just wasn't impressed any time I watched them, except one game against Clips when Humphries really stuck in memory.
To me, he's very mediocre although he has some advantages in certain matchups that require power play (against Z-BO comes to mind, against Blake), and on top of that, quite unproven.

Gamble1
06-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Why are people so high on Humphries? Even in this great contract year, he only averaged 10 and 10. The whole point is we want either a great defender who can play decent defense or a great offensive presence and who can contribute on defense (im talking about bigs here) I feel like Chandler, West, and NeNe are the only ones who fit the bill.
He only average 10 and 10 plus they traded for one of the top 3 pg's in the league.

We already know Dwest can play with Collison and I sort of feel that if you go after someone that won't contribute much on offense he had better be everything that Tyson Chandler is on defense.


Don't try to change your original question of...



It wasn't about whether or not Cleveland would accept the offer, nor whether it was going to be a core player. Hell...he's still worth the first rounder, piece (Brandon Rush, D. Jones, etc), and an expiring. The only way that I would balk if they were asking for one our core players.
If you were to ask most GM's if they thought Rush or Djones were considered "pieces" I think they would laugh you off the phone.

Tyler Hans is a piece which is what it would take to get it done and if it takes that then I don't think Vaj is worth it.

ballism
06-28-2011, 10:30 AM
I don't think an offer like Hans+ 1st (in mid-late 1st round) would be enough to get Varejao. None of those pieces has a real chance to develop to Varejao level.

If I'm Cavs, I'm just holding onto him at that price. He fits well with Thompson / Hickson. He's a veteran who's seen deep playoffs. He's cheap for his quality. He's not that old. He'll help Thompson develop.
So, just keep him untill someone offers a decent lotto pick or real prospect.

Gamble1
06-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Some Team is going to offer him more then a $7 mil a year contract.

Getting a Player like David West will ( admittedly ) keep Teams honest on the offensive end....but won't keep them honest on the defensive end. I want the Smashmouth hard nosed Basketball that I saw during the Playoffs.

If I simply wanted to look for a Starting Quality PF that could score and provide some decent Rebounding...I'd be okay with going after David West. But if we are to go back to Smashmouth Basketball with Vogel ( hint hint Bird...any day now :rolleyes: ), then I wouldn't want David West...I'd sink the same amount of money into Tyson Chandler or somewhat less for Humphries.
The problem is that you need both and if you don't have both then your in trouble.

Chandler is the only guy I would sink big time money in just because his defense is that good. He would however clog the driving lanes and make it easier for double teams on Hibbert which essentially can take away at times the low post scoring of Hibbert which VOgels wants.

Dwest however opens up the driving lanes and minimizes the double teams on Hibbert. He can play well with Collison which IMO is essential for our pg play and offense to function well.

I don't think you can go wrong with either Tyson or Dwest but you need both type of guys who are consistent.

Tyson will cost a lot more. I am thinking 11-12 mill depending on the new CBA. IS he worth that? I don't know but we need a guy like him.

Gamble1
06-28-2011, 10:37 AM
I don't think an offer like Hans+ 1st (in mid-late 1st round) would be enough to get Varejao. None of those pieces has a real chance to develop to Varejao level.

If I'm Cavs, I'm just holding onto him at that price. He fits well with Thompson / Hickson. He's a veteran who's seen deep playoffs. He's cheap for his quality. He's not that old. He'll help Thompson develop.
So, just keep him untill someone offers a decent lotto pick or real prospect.
Next years first round does IMO but I agree that other teams probably could offer more than that. The biggest advantage that we could offer the Cavs is not having to match salaries which should be important for them in their rebuilding process. Thats the only angle we could play that other lotto teams couldn't.

ballism
06-28-2011, 10:42 AM
Well a lotto pick could entice them, but I'm not sure yet that outside of lotto (where we draft, hopefully) it's a great draft next year. The lotto should be amazing, especially top 10, but mid first - late first may be pretty average. There won't even be those late-first internationals that have been there every year. Most of those chose to get drafted this year.

Gamble1
06-28-2011, 10:46 AM
Well a lotto pick could entice them, but I'm not sure yet that outside of lotto (where we draft, hopefully) it's a great draft next year. The lotto should be amazing, especially top 10, but mid first - late first may be pretty average. There won't even be those late-first internationals that have been there every year. Most of those chose to get drafted this year.
Its a tough call but I think there will be a good pick at the mid to late first round. Remember Vajerao was the 31 pick and Hustle players are in every draft. Personally I don't think they go after Vajerao replacement because they dont' need to. They could go after a many positons but again if they want a lottto pick for him then we are out of the running.

graphic-er
06-28-2011, 10:48 AM
I'd get Humphries. double double guy who doesn't need the ball to make an impact. He can be the next Dale Davis/ Jeff Foster PF for us to pair next to Hibbert. He is 6-9 but plays much bigger than that. West would be okay, but i'm just not convinced that the Pacers need an offensively minded PF, when you have Hibbert down low, who looks like he is going to develop like Rik Smits. We need a solid rebounder who will protect the paint. Pacers will not be winning many playoff series with out rebounding.

CableKC
06-28-2011, 12:55 PM
Humphries is Tyler Hansbrough who is a better rebounder, a worse scorer, to me, they are the same player bsically. Tyler gets to the line at a great pace and plays with intensity all the time. Both can guard the PF position only at an average level. I don't see much of a net gain by likely overpaying Humphries for what Tyler mostly gives you on a rookie scale.
So.....one is a better rebounder and better shotblocker then the other while one is a better scorer then the other, yet they are basically the same player?

I get that both maybe considered PFs that hustle....but I'd say that they are different type of PFs that contribute in different manners to their team where one is relied upon to score and the other is relied upon to rebound and defend the paint. If anything, there is a fairer comparison between Humphries and Foster as they basically contribute in the same manner.

The net gain that you'd have for "overpaying" a Player like Humphries is quite evident....significantly improved rebounding and better shotblocking in the frontcourt.

To be clear, I'm not saying that one is better then the other....I'm saying that it's difficult to compare the two when both contribute differntly on the floor in different manners.

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 01:18 PM
None of the potential FA's at the 4 interest me much. How about getting via a trade, a PF who is around 6'10, good rebounder, shot blocker, with limited offensive package? This type of player can be had for 1/4 of the cost of the big name guys. Plus, he would fill a void that we have.
We have a good PF who can hit the open 15' - dont need West, Milsap, Smith
We dont have a good PF who can defend, protect the rim, and block shots.
Do we want to improve or get more of the same?

CableKC
06-28-2011, 01:27 PM
The problem is that you need both and if you don't have both then your in trouble.

Chandler is the only guy I would sink big time money in just because his defense is that good. He would however clog the driving lanes and make it easier for double teams on Hibbert which essentially can take away at times the low post scoring of Hibbert which VOgels wants.

Dwest however opens up the driving lanes and minimizes the double teams on Hibbert. He can play well with Collison which IMO is essential for our pg play and offense to function well.

I don't think you can go wrong with either Tyson or Dwest but you need both type of guys who are consistent.

Tyson will cost a lot more. I am thinking 11-12 mill depending on the new CBA. IS he worth that? I don't know but we need a guy like him.
Yeah...we need both....but there is no Player that can do both....there's Players that can do one and other Players that can do the other. But I keep on getting back to what I've been saying about Smashmouth Basketball.
I think that if there is a Frontcourt Player that we go after...it would be a Player like Chandler and Humphries, as opposed to West or Landry.

Pacer Fan
06-28-2011, 01:36 PM
I so agree about West on this article. But, I don't agree on the Hill trade, Pacers need another offensive go to guy and Hill is perfect!


NBA Free Agent Rumors: Will Indiana Pacers Sign David West?
NBA Free Agent Rumors Suggest Larry Bird Will Target David West

It’s incredible that on the day David West opts out of his New Orleans contract that teams are already planning to target it him whenever free agency begins.

West is coming off an ACL injury and was only an All Star forward because Chris Paul is arguably the best point guard in the NBA. West is a fine offensive player, averaging 16.4 and 7.3 rebounds for his entire career. The ball-handling magician created easy scoring opportunities for West, one he will not see by heading to Indiana, one of the teams already showing interest, according to Yahoo’s Adrian Wojnarowski.

Why Larry Bird wants to bring in West to Indiana is beyond me. The Pacers made exceptional strides last year to enter the postseason as the No. 8 seed. With a dangerous core of Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and Darren Collison, the team took the Chicago Bulls to the limit. They are poised for great future success, but signing West will only set this team back.

West is a 6’9” 240-pound power forward who actually plays smaller than this height and weight would suggest. He is a small forward masquerading in a power forwards body. He averages less than steal and block per contest for his career, whereas the Pacers are building one of the better defensive ball clubs in the league.

The team will cripple their enviable salary cap by signing an aging and clearly declining West. I strongly disagreed with Bird’s decision to trade Kawhi Leonard and essentially Davis Bertans to the Spurs for combo guard and Indiana fan favorite George Hill. Still, Hill is a capable defender and underrated scorer. He will continue to keep the ball moving to create opportunities for superstar small forward Granger.

Although this team needs a power forward, badly, West is not the answer. He does not fit the mold of power forward this team needs. Indiana needs a tough-nosed power forward who will crash the glass and stand his ground on the defensive side of the court.

Tyler Hansbrough is that man, and he is a great role player. Yet for the sake of their salary cap and mentality, it would be wiser to have Hansbrough step into the starting five than West



http://www.jayreas.com/nba-free-agent-rumors-will-indiana-pacers-sign-david-west/

The Sleeze
06-28-2011, 01:43 PM
I would like Humphries because we don't need a scoring PF in the starting unit. We have Collison/Hill, P George, Granger, and Hibbert to do the scoring. We need rebounding and shot blocking with that unit.

Then Hansbrough would come in and supply scoring along with Collison/Hill, Stephenson/Jones. Foster/other center would supply the rebounding and toughness in this rotation.

People don't want West because he's a scorer like Hans and doesn't rebound, but they don't want Humphries because he only scores 10 pts. We can't have it both ways.

graphic-er
06-28-2011, 01:58 PM
I'd take a look at AK47 if I was Bird, he is a starting caliber player, rebounds well and is a decent shot blocker.

Hicks
06-28-2011, 02:06 PM
I'd take Andrei, but I'd want him off the bench. I think he'd be great in that role.

Gamble1
06-28-2011, 02:51 PM
I would like Humphries because we don't need a scoring PF in the starting unit. We have Collison/Hill, P George, Granger, and Hibbert to do the scoring. We need rebounding and shot blocking with that unit.

Then Hansbrough would come in and supply scoring along with Collison/Hill, Stephenson/Jones. Foster/other center would supply the rebounding and toughness in this rotation.

People don't want West because he's a scorer like Hans and doesn't rebound, but they don't want Humphries because he only scores 10 pts. We can't have it both ways.
Don't get me wrong I think we need more toughness in the starting unit but I am not so sure that our starting unit is an offensive juggernaut. Again this goes back to consistency and the only guy who is consistent in the starting unit is Granger. I would like to think that every one would grow signifcantly in the off season but I am not sure it will happen.

Speed
06-28-2011, 02:57 PM
I'm surprised AK47 doesn't get more consideration. Ya he had a huge contract, but now he doesn't have to.

A.B.Hollywood
06-28-2011, 03:00 PM
I'd take Andrei, but I'd want him off the bench. I think he'd be great in that role.

I like Andrei as well and I think the cost wouldn't be killer.

wintermute
06-28-2011, 04:18 PM
I'm surprised AK47 doesn't get more consideration. Ya he had a huge contract, but now he doesn't have to.

Most people seem to think that Kirilenko to NJ is a foregone conclusion because of the Pokhorov connection. Remains to be seen of course, but it does seem very likely.

ballism
06-28-2011, 04:22 PM
I think Kirilenko couldn't care less about Prokhorov. Watching Russian TV channels a lot, and I'm under impression Russians care about him less than US press.
That said, maybe Prokhorov would like to overpay Kirilenko to get a few political points in Russia.
It will be interesting.

Trophy
06-28-2011, 04:40 PM
I've liked AK47 for a while.

He's best suited coming off the bench and at times he can start, but his instant offense would be nice to add that you don't usually get from your bench.

CableKC
06-28-2011, 05:02 PM
The only concern that I with AK47 is that he's injury prone and has missed a lot of games over the last couple of seasons.

I'd have no problem if he was brought in as a 6th-7th Man....but I do not want him to be brought in as a Starting PF.

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 05:08 PM
The only concern that I with AK47 is that he's injury prone and has missed a lot of games over the last couple of seasons.

I'd have no problem if he was brought in as a 6th-7th Man....but I do not want him to be brought in as a Starting PF.

AK47 - Games missed
'11 = 18
'10 = 24
'09 = 15
'08 = 10
'07 = 12
That is a total of 79 games in the last 5 years. Although over half has been missed in the last two years. He is a beacon of health compared to Eric Gordon and plays a much more physical position. (I am not against getting Gordon either)
He would be a great backup for Tyler if the money is right. He is a pro, mature, and has a well rounded game. Probably dont get hurt as much in a limited role. If Bird decides to go with Tyler as a starter, I would not complain at all.

gknjr007
06-28-2011, 05:16 PM
None of the potential FA's at the 4 interest me much. How about getting via a trade, a PF who is around 6'10, good rebounder, shot blocker, with limited offensive package? This type of player can be had for 1/4 of the cost of the big name guys. Plus, he would fill a void that we have.
We have a good PF who can hit the open 15' - dont need West, Milsap, Smith
We dont have a good PF who can defend, protect the rim, and block shots.
Do we want to improve or get more of the same?

like Anthony Randolph

CableKC
06-28-2011, 05:25 PM
AK47 - Games missed
'11 = 18
'10 = 24
'09 = 15
'08 = 10
'07 = 12
That is a total of 79 games in the last 5 years. Although over half has been missed in the last two years. He is a beacon of health compared to Eric Gordon and plays a much more physical position. (I am not against getting Gordon either)
He would be a great backup for Tyler if the money is right. He is a pro, mature, and has a well rounded game. Probably dont get hurt as much in a limited role. If Bird decides to go with Tyler as a starter, I would not complain at all.
I'll disagree here....any Player that we should be getting should be a Starter...not a Backup Player. I wanted a Starting Lineup with a Low Post Rebounding Presense that would defend the paint alongside Hibbert....Hansbrough is not that guy if you ask me...neither is AK47 due to injury concerns that I have ( as well as not being a PF/C ).

Also....consistently missing that many games IS NOT good for a Starter if you ask me. It creates inconsistency in the lineup and forces the Team to adjust.

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 05:27 PM
like Anthony Randolph

That is odd. I just left his profile page. Minny has a bunch of PF/C and I wonder if we could get Randolph and Brad Miller for next years pick? We need a PF and a bcakup Center. Miller is a pro who could help Roy. And I am guessing the tandem of Tyler/Randolph would fit. Plus, AD can log minutes at Center if needed!

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 05:29 PM
I'll disagree here....any Player that we should be getting should be a Starter...not a Backup Player. I wanted a Starting Lineup with a Low Post Rebounding Presense that would defend the paint alongside Hibbert....Hansbrough is not that guy if you ask me...neither is AK47 due to injury concerns that I have ( as well as not being a PF/C ).

You did not disagree with me. I was not stating that I wanted AK47. I pointed out that if BIRD thinks Tyler is the guy - THEN AK47 makes sense!

CableKC
06-28-2011, 06:40 PM
You did not disagree with me. I was not stating that I wanted AK47. I pointed out that if BIRD thinks Tyler is the guy - THEN AK47 makes sense!
Okay...I guess I misread it....either way...I don't want AK47 as a Starter...Id have no problem as a backup Forward....but we don't really need one.

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 07:19 PM
Okay...I guess I misread it....either way...I don't want AK47 as a Starter...Id have no problem as a backup Forward....but we don't really need one.

How much would it stink to bring in a high priced PF only to have Tyler out produce them? He did put up 14/6 as a starter last year. No reason to think those numbers wont improve. If they just go up to 15/7 then we have a West or Milsap type production for 7mill a year less!

Justin Tyme
06-28-2011, 07:59 PM
How much would it stink to bring in a high priced PF only to have Tyler out produce them? He did put up 14/6 as a starter last year. No reason to think those numbers wont improve. If they just go up to 15/7 then we have a West or Milsap type production for 7mill a year less!


Tyler's "D" isn't as good. Then it ain't 7 mil that bad either!

One of the things that drives me crazy at times with Hans he's a blackhole. He HAS to remember this is a TEAM sport and needs not to continually shoot.

rexnom
06-28-2011, 08:04 PM
Are we sure Paul George is an offensive juggernaut? We're pinning a lot of our hopes on that potential development. He's shown flashes of defensive brilliance but I'm not so sure about the offense part of it.

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 08:23 PM
Tyler's "D" isn't as good. Then it ain't 7 mil that bad either!

One of the things that drives me crazy at times with Hans he's a blackhole. He HAS to remember this is a TEAM sport and needs not to continually shoot.

You make a good point regarding Tyler. The only thing that bugs me is that everything you just wrote about Tyler can be said about Milsap/West. They are black holes too. Both like to stand outside and shoot 15-18' jumpers. Neither really attack the basket as good as Tyler, neither can run with him, neither play "D" much better either.

I guess the main point I am getting at is Tyler is getting better and already does things much like these guys and he is 7mill a year cheaper. I would not be surprised if Tyler does not have as good a year or even better than both those guys next year. I have NO concern about going into next season with Tyler as our starting 4 (as long as a defensive 4 is signed to back him up).

CooperManning
06-28-2011, 08:46 PM
Are we sure Paul George is an offensive juggernaut? We're pinning a lot of our hopes on that potential development. He's shown flashes of defensive brilliance but I'm not so sure about the offense part of it.

I'd say he's already the best on the team in ISO situations. It feels like Paul's problem last year was not being able to work his game within the flow of the offense. That seems like something that'll improve in his second and especially third seasons.

Silky smooth shots like this make me believe he can hit the 3 regularly:

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pbx_9wFLVuo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He had a similar shot against Milwaukee at the end of the 3rd quarter that I can't find a clip of, it's in all his highlight vids though.

Combine better integration into the offensive flow and an improved 3-ball with his already-impressive fast break skills and I don't see why he can't drop 16-20/game by the end of his 3rd year. Of course a lot of this is just assumed improvement, but we all know Paul spends a lot of time in the gym so I have no reason to doubt him.

I agree with you that we're pinning a lot of our hopes on his development. In fact I would say that this core has little to no chance of winning a championship if Paul doesn't develop. But that's a discussion for another thread.

dohman
06-28-2011, 08:58 PM
Are we sure Paul George is an offensive juggernaut? We're pinning a lot of our hopes on that potential development. He's shown flashes of defensive brilliance but I'm not so sure about the offense part of it.

I belieive he shot over 50% inside of the three point line. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Justin Tyme
06-28-2011, 09:17 PM
You make a good point regarding Tyler. The only thing that bugs me is that everything you just wrote about Tyler can be said about Milsap/West. They are black holes too. Both like to stand outside and shoot 15-18' jumpers. Neither really attack the basket as good as Tyler, neither can run with him, neither play "D" much better either.

I guess the main point I am getting at is Tyler is getting better and already does things much like these guys and he is 7mill a year cheaper. I would not be surprised if Tyler does not have as good a year or even better than both those guys next year. I have NO concern about going into next season with Tyler as our starting 4 (as long as a defensive 4 is signed to back him up).



Who do you have in mind as the "D" PF to back Hans?

troyc11a
06-28-2011, 09:47 PM
Who do you have in mind as the "D" PF to back Hans?

I would like to see the list of RFA's. Right now from what little I saw this year of DeAndre Jordan, he would be worth a big contract. He would start over Tyler and could possibly be Roy's replacement if he does not keep improving.

As far as a good backup goes, what about Anthony Randolph? Minny has a million bigs. He can play both 4/5 and is athletic. Kirilenko is worth looking into as well. But neither of them are worth big bucks.

Until I know who is available (RFA/FA) it is hard to tell. But I bet Bird knows who is a realistic option.

daschysta
06-28-2011, 09:57 PM
Are we sure Paul George is an offensive juggernaut? We're pinning a lot of our hopes on that potential development. He's shown flashes of defensive brilliance but I'm not so sure about the offense part of it.

We did purposely isolate him at the end of quarters alot last year and he showed the ability to get the rim with ease, and alot of his step back moves, combined with his size will let him get his jump shot off over most everyone.

His only problem was finishing, which will come in time, much more important was the ability to create those shots in the first place, which he showed very encouraging signs of at times last year.