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View Full Version : We don't have enough talent on our roster to be in win now mode!



PacerFreak31
06-24-2011, 03:35 PM
I have officially given up on Bird. However, I want to make one thing clear. I will always support the Pacers and cheer for them no matter what. The thing that bothers me is that I don't think the Pacers have any type of vision or plan. CP3 and Howard are not just going to decide playing for Indiana is cool. We won't be able to sign anything more than role players on a championship team that we will try to use them as starters. Their are two ways we are going to get better. First is through the draft and second is through trades. What most people seem to not understand is in order to get a good player your have to either be willing to give up an equally good player or give up some young talent.

This is where I fear Bird doesn't know what he is doing. Last night he traded away what a lot of analyst say was the steal of the draft. We received at best the 6th man on our roster. These are the type of "safe" deals Bird does but it kills us as a franchise. Right now we need to get our hands on as much young talent as we can! Why? Because if we are ever going to trade for a star player we have to have the young assets to get a deal done. The Nets ended up with D.Will because they had the players to get the deal done. Right now we have NO young players to offer in a trade, assuming Bird is really that high on Lance.

We have PG but he is part of our core, AJ and Rush will get us nothing in a trade and teams can just wait till after this season and sign them cheap anyway, and our other players are around 25 years old which limits their potential to most GM's. So I don't get that we have all this young talent when only three players younger than 25 figure into our long term plans. Which brings me to my main point.

The roster we have now is not and never will be a roster you look at and start saying we need to build to win now. We just don't have the players to get a deal done via trade and there are no big time FA's going to sign to play in Indiana. This is when I think we are going to be hurt A LOT for not going ahead and starting a total rebuilding project. We were caught too long in the should we rebuild or retool mode. That is why you don't trade away top ten talent for a backup combo guard. GM's that trade away Star players want draft picks, players with potential, and cap space. Right now we only can offer cap space.

Being in this win now mode that we are now about to enter is going to cause a lot of heartache for Pacer fans. In the next three years even if we use our cap space correctly we will never beat the Miami's or the Knick's of the future. At best I see us as maybe the 4th best team in the East and that is if everything falls into place and we might win a first round series but that will be our ceiling. So I hope everyone enjoys having a home town guy on our Roster but bring him here could have just cost us the chance to add another piece to a bigger trade that could have brought us a star.

I'll end with this. The Boston Celtics did it the right way. They kept their one star, got as much young talent as they could, and then traded for two superstars. They have been contenders ever since and yes now they are getting older but at least they were seriously consider title contenders and actually have a championship to show for it. They didn't go for trades that would give them a backup combo guard, they held onto their youth and traded it to get their star players. If you remember Boston couldn't draw in the FA's while they were not winning much but after they got the star power they were able to get some of the FA's to sign there. It is not the perfect model but I think it is a more common model that teams are starting to copy. At least it is a direction instead of going into win now mode with a roster as weak as ours.

Infinite MAN_force
06-24-2011, 03:38 PM
:onozomg:

joeco
06-24-2011, 03:43 PM
this team gave the #1 seed all it could handle. since they've added an opening day veteran who fills multiple needs and has lots of $$ to spend on a few more pieces, obv bigs.

I dont see why you can make a fuss the day after the trade on draft day. Birds guy wasnt there so we didnt settle for the "best available", we settled on addressing a need with a young, cheap veteran whos ready to play now. Win-Win for both sides

duke dynamite
06-24-2011, 03:53 PM
OP=PFFL?

In all seriousness, how did we hurt ourselves by upgrading a position we needed? The backup point guard spot isn't our strongest part of the team by any means, either. I can't rely on Price to keep us in a game let alone help us win one. Lance? Okay. Sure. I'll give him another year. But by adding Hill why is that such a problem with a few of you folks? I mean come on, we now have an amazing point guard rotation capable of giving D. Rose some trouble.

Don't come back and snarl at me saying we can't contain Rose, hardly anyone in the league can do that, but we have a better shot this upcoming season than we did the last and that's a lot to say.

Psssh...

Infinite MAN_force
06-24-2011, 03:55 PM
We did take the best guy available, and he was a terrible fit with our roster. So Bird did the correct thing, and traded the pick.

Why people think the 15th pick in a weak draft was gonna make or break this team I'll never understand, we managed to turn that into proven young talent on a cheap contract. Great move.

Kid Minneapolis
06-24-2011, 03:55 PM
Hm... I think we're pretty talented, just not top-tier talented. I do think we're a few moves away from being serious.

I think the biggest, most important move this off-season will be the boring but crucial appointment of our coaching staff. I feel like this team has accumulated some good young talent in the past 2-3 years and, frankly, the coaching staff was just goofing off. I am anxious to see the staff that Vogel surrounds himself with. I love Vogel himself, and I'm liking the names being bandied about as his staff... so I have a feeling they're going to show us the kind of talent we actually have.

BringJackBack
06-24-2011, 03:56 PM
It's kind of frustrating that when Bird doesn't make trades he's Mr. cold feet, and when he does make trades they don't make us better. I dont understand how it doesn't though:

George Hill > 15th pick, 42 pick, irrelevant player

xBulletproof
06-24-2011, 03:59 PM
Wow, really?

Bird didn't just make a 'safe' move, and he made a smart move. He plugged a hole we had, and did it with a guy who has yet to reach his prime either. It's not like he went out and targeted Steve Nash with a 2 year window. He got a guy who's still going to be a good player in 7 years.

Color me completely baffled on how this is a bad thing.

rabid
06-24-2011, 04:00 PM
Dude we have just freed up a ton of cap space, are in the middle of assembling what looks to be a great coaching staff, and just turned the 15 and 42 picks in a so-so draft into the 6th man from last year's #1 playoff seed (who is still only 25 years old). Summer hasn't really even started yet. WTF did you want?

We had the 2nd youngest starting roster in the NBA this season next to OKC. George, Hibbert, DC, Tyler isn't enough youth for you? Are you kidding?

We didn't have a lottery pick, we were a playoff team this year, remember? We have a ton of flexibility this summer compared to previous years and we haven't really even gotten started yet. Chill.

Eleazar
06-24-2011, 04:01 PM
Hm... I think we're pretty talented, just not top-tier talented. I do think we're a few moves away from being serious.

I think the biggest, most important move this off-season will be the boring but crucial appointment of our coaching staff. I feel like this team has accumulated some good young talent in the past 2-3 years and, frankly, the coaching staff was just goofing off. I am anxious to see the staff that Vogel surrounds himself with. I love Vogel himself, and I'm liking the names being bandied about as his staff... so I have a feeling they're going to show us the kind of talent we actually have.

I basically agree. I don't think the talent is ready to go into win now mode, but I think in 2 or 3 seasons the talent will have developed to the point where we are in win now mode.

aaronb
06-24-2011, 04:03 PM
I have officially given up on Bird. However, I want to make one thing clear. I will always support the Pacers and cheer for them no matter what. The thing that bothers me is that I don't think the Pacers have any type of vision or plan. CP3 and Howard are not just going to decide playing for Indiana is cool. We won't be able to sign anything more than role players on a championship team that we will try to use them as starters. Their are two ways we are going to get better. First is through the draft and second is through trades. What most people seem to not understand is in order to get a good player your have to either be willing to give up an equally good player or give up some young talent.

This is where I fear Bird doesn't know what he is doing. Last night he traded away what a lot of analyst say was the steal of the draft. We received at best the 6th man on our roster. These are the type of "safe" deals Bird does but it kills us as a franchise. Right now we need to get our hands on as much young talent as we can! Why? Because if we are ever going to trade for a star player we have to have the young assets to get a deal done. The Nets ended up with D.Will because they had the players to get the deal done. Right now we have NO young players to offer in a trade, assuming Bird is really that high on Lance.

We have PG but he is part of our core, AJ and Rush will get us nothing in a trade and teams can just wait till after this season and sign them cheap anyway, and our other players are around 25 years old which limits their potential to most GM's. So I don't get that we have all this young talent when only three players younger than 25 figure into our long term plans. Which brings me to my main point.

The roster we have now is not and never will be a roster you look at and start saying we need to build to win now. We just don't have the players to get a deal done via trade and there are no big time FA's going to sign to play in Indiana. This is when I think we are going to be hurt A LOT for not going ahead and starting a total rebuilding project. We were caught too long in the should we rebuild or retool mode. That is why you don't trade away top ten talent for a backup combo guard. GM's that trade away Star players want draft picks, players with potential, and cap space. Right now we only can offer cap space.

Being in this win now mode that we are now about to enter is going to cause a lot of heartache for Pacer fans. In the next three years even if we use our cap space correctly we will never beat the Miami's or the Knick's of the future. At best I see us as maybe the 4th best team in the East and that is if everything falls into place and we might win a first round series but that will be our ceiling. So I hope everyone enjoys having a home town guy on our Roster but bring him here could have just cost us the chance to add another piece to a bigger trade that could have brought us a star.

I'll end with this. The Boston Celtics did it the right way. They kept their one star, got as much young talent as they could, and then traded for two superstars. They have been contenders ever since and yes now they are getting older but at least they were seriously consider title contenders and actually have a championship to show for it. They didn't go for trades that would give them a backup combo guard, they held onto their youth and traded it to get their star players. If you remember Boston couldn't draw in the FA's while they were not winning much but after they got the star power they were able to get some of the FA's to sign there. It is not the perfect model but I think it is a more common model that teams are starting to copy. At least it is a direction instead of going into win now mode with a roster as weak as ours.


This is the kind of moves you get when

a) The GM is feeling pressure to win now
b) The GM hasn't been successful in his 3 year plan

Problem is that Larry Bird has ALWAYS been in win now mode. Whether it was the right thing to do or not?

95% of all former players suck as GM's. It's especially magnified now that teams are being led my MIT and Ivy league guys.

ndcoltsnpacers
06-24-2011, 04:07 PM
To a degree I can believe that we sort of are in "win now mode". If Bird wants any shot at landing a coveted free agent from next years talented free agent class we need to show that we already have a lot of talent this season. We don't have the city to attract guys so it will have to be through having a competitive team and plenty of cash to throw at them. George Hill fits the bill as far as increasing our overall talent this year better than Leonard would.

90'sNBARocked
06-24-2011, 04:09 PM
mdeleon:
RT @24writer: Alec Burks has just been taken by the Utah Jazz. That was the final pick being offered for George Hill. IUPUI seems to be ... [via Twitter

This is from the Spurs live Chat on San Antonio Express (SA largest Newspaper)

apparently the Spurs turned DOWN the offer for #12 and probably the only reason they took our offer is they thought highly of Lenoard and didnt expect him to be there, so they wanted him enough that we got in the mix , but had to add our 2nd round pick as well

Bird actually beat the competition on this one my friend

troyc11a
06-24-2011, 04:10 PM
It's kind of frustrating that when Bird doesn't make trades he's Mr. cold feet, and when he does make trades they don't make us better. I dont understand how it doesn't though:

George Hill > 15th pick, 42 pick, irrelevant player

Some people want to feel smart by criticizing people who are successful. They cannot elevate their own lives so they wish insult others who have made something of themselves.
You should know by now that Bird will get criticized no matter what he does. If he brings in Eric Gordon for AJ Price and a 2nd rd pick, those same people will complain that he overpaid!
George Hill > #15, 42 and irrelevant Euro
Anyone who argues that point is either just trying to start something on PD or just plain dumb.

duke dynamite
06-24-2011, 04:13 PM
This is the kind of moves you get when

a) The GM is feeling pressure to win now
b) The GM hasn't been successful in his 3 year plan

Problem is that Larry Bird has ALWAYS been in win now mode. Whether it was the right thing to do or not?

95% of all former players suck as GM's. It's especially magnified now that teams are being led my MIT and Ivy league guys.
You just hate Larry, period. He could **** gold bricks and give them to the poor and you'd still critcize him for something.

Rogco
06-24-2011, 04:15 PM
IThis is where I fear Bird doesn't know what he is doing. Last night he traded away what a lot of analyst say was the steal of the draft. We received at best the 6th man on our roster. These are the type of "safe" deals Bird does but it kills us as a franchise.


I'll end with this. The Boston Celtics did it the right way. They kept their one star, got as much young talent as they could, and then traded for two superstars.

Couple things, I've heard many analysts say Kawhi is useless. He's a tweener who's offensive game isn't good enough to play 3 and is to short to play 4. Also heard his big hands effect his shot negatively and will always do so. Furthermore, the steal of a bad draft at pick 15 isn't necessarily a good player.

As for the Boston comment, are you suggesting we trade Granger, Hibbert, George and future draft picks for two superstars? I grant you it might work, and the Pacers might be able to do it, but I'm not sure many people would want to see the team try and build that way. I want a great team, but also enjoy watching our young guys grow. And as a homer I like the uncertainty of watching the potential growth of players I like.

Rogco
06-24-2011, 04:16 PM
Also, Hill is only 25! It's not like we traded for an aging player to go into win now mode...

Trophy
06-24-2011, 04:22 PM
You can predict the future?

Of course we're not in win now mode. Who said we are? We're not true contenders just yet and still working our way to the top and making some noice. Finishing above .500. We're still getting pieces together and take it step by step in the season and get productive things done in the playoffs.

We've gotten better. George is going to be a huge part in helping the defense and he's the kind of combo guard we need.

We didn't lose anything on this roster in that trade so we didn't get worse.

I think you're just trolling a bit.

A.B.Hollywood
06-24-2011, 04:25 PM
This is dumb.

And yes, my argument right there was better than that Roots sized rant you just vomited.

Tom White
06-24-2011, 04:27 PM
George Hill > #15, 42 and irrelevant Euro
Anyone who argues that point is either just trying to start something on PD or just plain dumb.

Probably equal amounts of each, and we seems to be seeing a lot more of it recently.


You just hate Larry, period. He could **** gold bricks and give them to the poor and you'd still critcize him for something.

Amen.

I think some of these people should just start a site called Ihatebird.com where they can go rant the same regurgitated phlegm over and over, and congratulate each other about it, without using up bandwidth on a quality site like this. Perhaps a mass ignore button hitting by the general populace here would be in order.

aaronb
06-24-2011, 04:30 PM
You just hate Larry, period. He could **** gold bricks and give them to the poor and you'd still critcize him for something.

I don't hate the guy? I just don't think he's good at his job.

The biggest plus that everyone gives Bird is that he waited out the salary cap. The thing is, its left us with a really small window to acquire players.

Hibbert
Hill
Rush

Are all due extensions next summer. You have to assume the plan is to keep at least Hill and Hibby.

Was the grand plan to wait out the cap, so we could give 100 Million dollars to George Hill and Roy Hibbert?

Can you win with Hill and Hibbert being 2 of your top 4 players?

duke dynamite
06-24-2011, 04:32 PM
Amen.

I think some of these people should just start a site called Ihatebird.com where they can go rant the same regurgitated phlegm over and over, and congratulate each other about it, without using up bandwidth on a quality site like this. Perhaps a mass ignore button hitting by the general populace here would be in order.
Well, that Murphy trade is the gift that keeps on giving, apparently.

I am not going to just come out and call Larry a genius, but come on. We basically got both Collison and Hill (throw in Posey) for Troy Murphy and two draft picks in a "meh" draft, at least at 15.

If that isn't close to genius, I don't know what is.

NapTonius Monk
06-24-2011, 04:32 PM
'Win now' mode is different than 'Let's start translating some of this potential into wins' mode. I'd argue we're in the latter.

90'sNBARocked
06-24-2011, 04:35 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/news/story?page=5-on-5-110624


3. Who made the biggest steal?


Hayes Davenport, Celtics Hub: Indiana, for Kawhi Leonard and ultimately George Hill. The Pacers flipped the 15th pick in a supposedly weak draft for a young, useful, hometown player with a great contract at a need position. That actually happened. Leonard will be a solid addition in San Antonio, but he's really a steal because he made two teams better Thursday night.

apparently at least one Basketball professional thinks Bird had the "steal of the draft"

For someone like myself that has NO PROBLEM bashing Bird

Give the man his props

Nice job Larry, now take a 3 day weekend and chill

duke dynamite
06-24-2011, 04:35 PM
I don't hate the guy? I just don't think he's good at his job.

The biggest plus that everyone gives Bird is that he waited out the salary cap. The thing is, its left us with a really small window to acquire players.

Hibbert
Hill
Rush

Are all due extensions next summer. You have to assume the plan is to keep at least Hill and Hibby.

Was the grand plan to wait out the cap, so we could give 100 Million dollars to George Hill and Roy Hibbert?

Can you win with Hill and Hibbert being 2 of your top 4 players?
Dude, who cares about Brandon Rush? Who? Okay.

Come on. That and a $3.6 million qualifying offer to Hibbert isn't enough to break the bank, dude.

Look at your description, you are tired of the people who defend Bird. Blah blah blah. You aren't happy with anything that guys does. Never. Each deal, quote and appearance. You don't like it.

LeeTheG7
06-24-2011, 04:35 PM
You can predict the future?

Of course we're not in win now mode. Who said we are? We're not true contenders just yet and still working our way to the top and making some noice. Finishing above .500. We're still getting pieces together and take it step by step in the season and get productive things done in the playoffs.

We've gotten better. George is going to be a huge part in helping the defense and he's the kind of combo guard we need.

We didn't lose anything on this roster in that trade so we didn't get worse.

I think you're just trolling a bit.

How come someone can't be concerned about our team without trolling. We haven't won in like 7 years and it seems like its still going to be a while. So why shouldn't we be worried a little without being called a troll?

aaronb
06-24-2011, 04:39 PM
Dude, who cares about Brandon Rush? Who? Okay.

Come on. That and a $3.6 million qualifying offer to Hibbert isn't enough to break the bank, dude.

Look at your description, you are tired of the people who defend Bird. Blah blah blah. You aren't happy with anything that guys does. Never. Each deal, quote and appearance. You don't like it.


Hill and Hibbert are both RFA's at season's end. I seriously doubt either guy plays for the qualifying offer.

I actually like the trade for Hill. I've said it in several posts that I thought it was a good deal. I'd just feel better about the deal if we had a couple of better players already in the fold.

Since86
06-24-2011, 04:40 PM
Aaron, you think that Bird "failed" at his 3 year plan, when he executed it down to the very last detail.

We understand you don't agree with the direction he chose to go, but you don't get to make those decisions now do you?

He didn't "fail" anything. He chose a different path. Two 100% completely different things, but you have too much haterade dribbling down your chin to notice.

Reginald
06-24-2011, 04:42 PM
I have officially given up on Bird...Last night he traded away what a lot of analyst say was the steal of the draft. We received at best the 6th man on our roster.

Other than the fact I can't really find an analyst consensus that agrees with you or that ESPN's Chad Ford hailed the Pacers-Spurs trade as the best trade of the draft because it helped both teams equally, well said.

Spare me the fatalist emoting. Between Collison, PG and Hill, we've had three consecutive high-value moves in the last year. Take a horse tranquilizer and enjoy the moment.

duke dynamite
06-24-2011, 04:47 PM
Hill and Hibbert are both RFA's at season's end. I seriously doubt either guy plays for the qualifying offer.

I actually like the trade for Hill. I've said it in several posts that I thought it was a good deal. I'd just feel better about the deal if we had a couple of better players already in the fold.
I don't care if they get more than the qualifying offer, it's not like they are going to break the bank. And now you are re-nigging on your previous statement.

Pacers13Colts12
06-24-2011, 04:54 PM
Why are people worrying about losing draft picks in what has been described as a weak draft? So he is the steal of the draft in a weak draft. That probably means he'll be AT BEST a role player. George Hill is already more than that. If we didn't have a trade setup with the Spurs, we probably would not have taken Leonard.

LA_Confidential
06-24-2011, 04:54 PM
@DukeDynamite

I just noticed that Bird is in the background of you avatar. Pretty spooky, yet awesomely cool at the same time. Larry knows what he's doing. Its not like he drafted Kwame Brown or Adam Morrison like that other guy.

aaronb
06-24-2011, 04:55 PM
I don't care if they get more than the qualifying offer, it's not like they are going to break the bank. And now you are re-nigging on your previous statement.


What am I re-nigging on exactly? Those guys are going to get paid by somebody? Be it us or somebody else?

Surely you aren't thinking that these guys plan on staying in Indy for league minimum money?

Hibby is going to be looking for 5-50 to 5-65
Hill is going to be looking for 5-30 to 5-45

I like both players for the record. Still going to be some tough decisions to make going forward?

Really?
06-24-2011, 04:59 PM
This move moved us forward but I think that the title is still correct. So we gave the #1 seed a lot of trouble, we almost didn't even have the chance to do that... we barely made the Playoffs we could have easily had been a team watching the playoffs from home.

Winning is cool, and for our young group it would be a positive, but to really contend we are going to have to upgrade our talent, whether it be trough the draft, free agency, or through the progression of our players.

I can't wait til 3 years from now... we should have the talent by then if we can keep people on our team to make real moves in the playoffs if our young guys continue to progress.

Major Cold
06-24-2011, 05:03 PM
CALM DOWN JOHN JUST CALM DOWN!!!

CALM DOWN just CALM DOWN CALM DOWN just CALM DOWN just CALM DOWN CALM DOWN just CALM DOWN CALM DOWN just CALM DOWN just CALM DOWN!!!!!!!

Kemo
06-24-2011, 05:08 PM
sorry o.p. but BOO HOO


I don't think we need 3 giant photos to repeat the above point.

90'sNBARocked
06-24-2011, 05:09 PM
Hoya2aPacerRoy Hibbert






Just got off the phone with George Hill. He's ready to come home n get started.

Slick Pinkham
06-24-2011, 05:10 PM
I would rather have George Hill to win now

and also to win two years from now

and also to win three years from now

and however far into the future you want to go. His skills fit in with with our core group (Granger/Hibbert/Paul George) moreso than an offensively-limited athlete who would never play a huge role unless Granger or Paul George were moved.

San Antonio might also do well by the deal, but I am very confident that we got the guy who helps us more, and not just "now"

RLeWorm
06-24-2011, 05:11 PM
i don't know what u are talking about, Our team defense is that much better. George Hill can play defense on the quick pgs around the league and is pretty good at the offensive end i'd have to say better than DC. Our team has gone to another level in my opinion. And one more big move can make us contenders IMO

idioteque
06-24-2011, 05:12 PM
Since when did acknowledging the fact that we need another player at least as talented as Danny and acknowledging that we also needed some better 5th/6th/7th players become mutually exclusive?

All of the best teams in the East have elite wings. We are going to need guys like George, Hill, and Granger (when his defense is on) if we want to create match up problems. We also need one more really, really good player and I'm convinced that that will come.

Lurkster
06-24-2011, 05:14 PM
This is why people shouldn't get hung up on the Draft, and watching the ESPN coverage of it.

The casual fans fall in love with these guys in between picks, when nothing but highlights and praise are heaped on them (usually). The media creates an impression that each pick is an impact guy....study the league...many aren't.

In a down draft the 40th pick has the same odds of being great as the 15th..(slim to none)

We KNOW what GH brings. He's a two way player. He can create his own shot and get to the hole (or the line). He is going to greatly improve our defense against D.Rose and similar players. Our inside-out game will be greatly improved, especially when GH is paired with DC...when was the last time the pacers had two players who could drive & dish? He loves Indiana, and he's young.

None of us know definitively how things will work out...but the fans who are not happy with this move won't be happy with anything the pacers FO does..they can't be pleased

Peck
06-24-2011, 05:18 PM
Last night he traded away what a lot of analyst say was the steal of the draft. We received at best the 6th man on our roster.

I want to throw out everything else you said and focus on this.

Honest question here, was Leonard in your mind good enough to start this season over Paul George or Danny Granger?

If not would he be better than either of them in the season after that?

If the answer to either question is no then exactly how is the trade better or worse in your mind. If you don't think he can start over either then he is at best going to be the 6th man right now and that assumes he passes other player in the rotation to get there.

You already admit Hill will become the 6th man right away.

So I guess I'm confused on what your real problem is here.

Kemo
06-24-2011, 05:21 PM
This is from the Spurs live Chat on San Antonio Express (SA largest Newspaper)

apparently the Spurs turned DOWN the offer for #12 and probably the only reason they took our offer is they thought highly of Lenoard and didnt expect him to be there, so they wanted him enough that we got in the mix , but had to add our 2nd round pick as well

Bird actually beat the competition on this one my friend

Absolutely.. Plus , what some of you fail to realize , is if we didn't use the Troy Murphy trade exception , we would have lost it ...

Great move Bird.... Bravo

sopgy
06-24-2011, 05:26 PM
What am I re-nigging on exactly? Those guys are going to get paid by somebody? Be it us or somebody else?

Surely you aren't thinking that these guys plan on staying in Indy for league minimum money?

Hibby is going to be looking for 5-50 to 5-65
Hill is going to be looking for 5-30 to 5-45

I like both players for the record. Still going to be some tough decisions to make going forward?

I agree that Hill will get around 5-30 and anything above 5-35 we should let him walk unless he turns out to be better than he has been.

Hibbert should not get anything above 5-50, but assuming he is roughly the same player as now with some improvement, we should get him for 5-40. $8 mil for a young and slightly above average center sounds about right.

That's about $14 mil plus Danny's $13 comes out to $27mil for the three of them. Throw in DC, PG, Jones, Hansbrough and we are up to $38 mil. Soon after will be extensions coming due to DC, PG, Hansbrough. That might put us around $50 mil going forward assuming we don't package them for anybody.

I might be the only one who thinks so, but I feel that we could get a legit star to come to Indy and complete this team. That core signed long-term can fit cap-wise if we sign Gordon, a PF or whoever next summer. I feel that we would have a deep and talented team.

Kemo
06-24-2011, 05:28 PM
And now you are re-nigging on your previous statement.



LOL sorry Dukie , but I have to correct ya here..

It's "renege"


LMAO@ re-nigg .. I'ma start callin you Randy Marsh .. "That re-nigg guy" hahaa



I am just pullin your chain man .. lol

But it's IS funny... I used to think it was spelled that way when i was young , till i was embarassed and corrected at school ..

PacerFreak31
06-24-2011, 05:37 PM
I want to throw out everything else you said and focus on this.

Honest question here, was Leonard in your mind good enough to start this season over Paul George or Danny Granger?

If not would he be better than either of them in the season after that?

If the answer to either question is no then exactly how is the trade better or worse in your mind. If you don't think he can start over either then he is at best going to be the 6th man right now and that assumes he passes other player in the rotation to get there.

You already admit Hill will become the 6th man right away.

So I guess I'm confused on what your real problem is here.

See Peck this is where I think most people are getting lost on my comments. I don't think that Leonard is a good fit for our team. However if we are ever going to trade for a star player it will take guys like Leonard to pull it off. If say we had Danny and someone like Howard or CP3 then I would actually like this trade but again we need as many assets as we can get in order to trade for a star. I never said Leonard would be a good fit but he would be a piece to a bigger trade that could get us a star player.

aaronb
06-24-2011, 05:40 PM
See Peck this is where I think most people are getting lost on my comments. I don't think that Leonard is a good fit for our team. However if we are ever going to trade for a star player it will take guys like Leonard to pull it off. If say we had Danny and someone like Howard or CP3 then I would actually like this trade but again we need as many assets as we can get in order to trade for a star. I never said Leonard would be a good fit but he would be a piece to a bigger trade that could get us a star player.


This is along the same line that I was thinking. I like the Hill trade OK.

I just don't see anyway that this roster is a contender unless we get 2 more guys in Granger's tier. Not sure that George Hill really fits that bill?

Hoop
06-24-2011, 05:46 PM
WOW

I've been on the Dark Side for the last several years and I'm so pleased with the Murphy-DC trade, the canning of JOB, the end of season turnaround, a respectable playoff showing, and this year's draft trade. Heck, I'm on the verge of being a Sunshiner. :)

aaronb
06-24-2011, 05:48 PM
I agree that Hill will get around 5-30 and anything above 5-35 we should let him walk unless he turns out to be better than he has been.

Hibbert should not get anything above 5-50, but assuming he is roughly the same player as now with some improvement, we should get him for 5-40. $8 mil for a young and slightly above average center sounds about right.

That's about $14 mil plus Danny's $13 comes out to $27mil for the three of them. Throw in DC, PG, Jones, Hansbrough and we are up to $38 mil. Soon after will be extensions coming due to DC, PG, Hansbrough. That might put us around $50 mil going forward assuming we don't package them for anybody.

I might be the only one who thinks so, but I feel that we could get a legit star to come to Indy and complete this team. That core signed long-term can fit cap-wise if we sign Gordon, a PF or whoever next summer. I feel that we would have a deep and talented team.


If we plan on getting on, it needs to happen soon. That's all I am saying.

All this cap space is going away in 24 months or less. Looks like we will be picking 13-17 in the draft next year.

Window to lure the big ticket Free Agent just got a little slimmer.

BillS
06-24-2011, 06:00 PM
'Win now' mode is different than 'Let's start translating some of this potential into wins' mode. I'd argue we're in the latter.

That's why I hate this supposed discrete two-point range marked "rebuild" and "win now".

In between, there's this period where you figure you have all the young guys you need to begin focusing on their development. You switch to filling your gaps by getting players who can ALREADY do what you need, instead of trying to train someone up to fill the gap.

I would want to call it "build on the foundation" mode or something.


Window to lure the big ticket Free Agent just got a little slimmer.

And the caliber of player already here to make coming to Indiana more interesting for a big ticket FA has just gone up a little bit.

beezer615
06-24-2011, 06:02 PM
You know that every player on this team has come under Bird's watch right? And that he brought us every vital player on a playoff qualifying team, non of which we are losing this year? And that he significantly improved our backcourt and bench and local interest in a trade that cost us an offensively-challenged POTENTIAL grab who fills the same spot as our 2 best players (DG, PG) and 2011 and 2005 second rounders? And that he s#!^$ gold?

Yeah, what a terrible guy.

Rogco
06-24-2011, 06:13 PM
Saying Leonard wouldnt have fit in with this team was completely wrong.

If we wouldve kept Leonard, he woud've played the primary back up to Granger and at the 4. Saying he wouldnt have fit in when all we have is Posey who can back up the 3 and the 4 is wrong.

Leonard was lottery talent. If it wasnt for the trade between the Bucks, Bobcats, and Kings and players slipping he would have gone top 10. The bobcats would have been a perfect fit, but 2 top 5 projected point guards fell to them and they chose Kemba Walker as they should have.

I don't think a team who just won 37 games for 12th worst in the league should be in win now mode. Hill is going to be a free agent after next year anyway.

I'm in middle about this trade. What worries me is what if Hill is just a system guy.

First of all he wouldn't have been playing the four at all, he's a three. Second, Granger is mostly a 3, third, Marcus and Markieff (a 3 and 4) got picked right before Kawhi, indicating teams thought they were better even though Kawhi was a "lottery" selection (Marcus plays exactly the same role as Kawhi). Also, Hill isn't a free agent, he's a restricted free agent.

ksuttonjr76
06-24-2011, 06:18 PM
Not really a productive thread...riddled with contradictions.

He tells to get young - yet we're drafting players every year.
He tells us that no one will come to Indiana - yet we need young players to attract FAs.
He tells us to trade - yet points out we don't have assets to trade.

In summary, draft young, groom them, then trade them to get old players.

PacerFreak31
06-24-2011, 08:04 PM
Not really a productive thread...riddled with contradictions.

He tells to get young - yet we're drafting players every year.
He tells us that no one will come to Indiana - yet we need young players to attract FAs.
He tells us to trade - yet points out we don't have assets to trade.

In summary, draft young, groom them, then trade them to get old players.

Let's see we didn't draft anyone this year. We drafted about 3-4 4 year players almost back to back. I never said that we need to get young to attract FA's. The only way we attract FA's is if we get a couple star players and FA's think they have a legitimate chance for a ring. I also said the only way we get said star players is by trading for them however we do not have enough young talent to swing a deal. People think we can just trade AJ and Rush and get a good player and that is just comical. So by saying this thread is not productive is ignoring the issues we face going forward.

On a side note I have noticed how so many people said this was a weak draft a few weeks ago and then as it got closer to the draft almost everyone said it had really good depth and had a number of starters in the first 20 picks, then we trade out of the draft and it immediately becomes a weak draft again. It is amazing how so many people buy into the hype that the Pacers build. People want to talk about contradictions well I think Bird is the one most guilty of that.

xBulletproof
06-24-2011, 08:07 PM
So 14 teams passed on Leonard, in favor of 14 other rookies in a bad draft, but I'm supposed to believe he's the make or break piece in a trade for CP3 or Dwight Howard?

:laugh:

Ozwalt72
06-24-2011, 08:21 PM
If Hibbert gets extended for DG money, it will be a sign and trade to another team. I think the pacers would be the last team to overvalue the 7 footer they've watched develop...just thought I'd throw that out there.

PacerFreak31
06-24-2011, 08:26 PM
So 14 teams passed on Leonard, in favor of 14 other rookies in a bad draft, but I'm supposed to believe he's the make or break piece in a trade for CP3 or Dwight Howard?

:laugh:

Yea and like the 17th pick will ever be an all-star. I mean really 16 teams pass on a guy and I am suspose to think he will be an all star someday?

I never said Leonard will be a make or break piece but he would at least be part of a bigger trade.

I mean who would have thought Timofey Mozgov would be the make or break player in the Carmelo Anthony trade? You never know what other GM's see in other players so the more assets you have the more likely you can get a big trade done.

Gamble1
06-24-2011, 08:56 PM
What am I re-nigging on exactly? Those guys are going to get paid by somebody? Be it us or somebody else?

Surely you aren't thinking that these guys plan on staying in Indy for league minimum money?

Hibby is going to be looking for 5-50 to 5-65
Hill is going to be looking for 5-30 to 5-45

I like both players for the record. Still going to be some tough decisions to make going forward?
This to me is a valid concern but I want to point something out that I think is getting overlooked.

Right now there are only 8 teams anywhere near what the owners would like a hard cap or a flex cap to be at (~58 mill) and out of those 8 the majority have RFA of their own that they have to worry about.

So here is the bottom line. The 2011/12 FA market sucks no doubt about it and its a terrible year for us to have all this money. That being said the 2012/13 is probably the best year to resign your own RFA's in the last decade if not in the history of the modern NBA...

Other teams won't have the money to offer big contracts to Roy or Hill so my prediction is that we will be under those projected numbers of yours by a large margin.

xBulletproof
06-24-2011, 09:08 PM
Yea and like the 17th pick will ever be an all-star. I mean really 16 teams pass on a guy and I am suspose to think he will be an all star someday?

I never said Leonard will be a make or break piece but he would at least be part of a bigger trade.

I mean who would have thought Timofey Mozgov would be the make or break player in the Carmelo Anthony trade? You never know what other GM's see in other players so the more assets you have the more likely you can get a big trade done.

Danny fell because of a knee problem. Leonard fell because it's where he should have been. I never understood why he was considered a top 10 pick by mock drafts, even in this draft.

Regardless, you're now complaining about Bird not making moves based on GM's who you admit you'll never know what they're thinking? Doesn't that make it rather impossible? Doesn't that mean it's just as likely they'd want George Hill, because you never know, right?

Your complaints just don't make much sense.

Larry Staverman
06-24-2011, 09:26 PM
I never said Leonard will be a make or break piece but he would at least be part of a bigger trade.

I mean who would have thought Timofey Mozgov would be the make or break player in the Carmelo Anthony trade? You never know what other GM's see in other players so the more assets you have the more likely you can get a big trade done.

Moving one asset for another doesn't necessarily take away your options.

George Hill still has value as a trade asset as well if there is a deal to be made.

Peck
06-24-2011, 10:10 PM
See Peck this is where I think most people are getting lost on my comments. I don't think that Leonard is a good fit for our team. However if we are ever going to trade for a star player it will take guys like Leonard to pull it off. If say we had Danny and someone like Howard or CP3 then I would actually like this trade but again we need as many assets as we can get in order to trade for a star. I never said Leonard would be a good fit but he would be a piece to a bigger trade that could get us a star player.

What makes Leonard any more of an asset than Roy Hibbert? Or Darren Collison? Or Tyler Hansbrough?

You don't think Danny with Roy & D.C. & Posey's expiring & a draft pick couldn't get you what you would get with Leonard? BTW I'm not advocating that trade or saying it would work I'm just pointing out that the assets you want already exist.

Trophy
06-24-2011, 10:14 PM
I was happy at the moment when we drafted Kawhi Leonard just because he was in so many mock drafts to be a top pick.

I never knew why though? No one really ever mentioned anything about him or why he was projected to go that high. Kind of like Jerryd Bayless.

PacerFreak31
06-25-2011, 12:17 AM
What makes Leonard any more of an asset than Roy Hibbert? Or Darren Collison? Or Tyler Hansbrough?

You don't think Danny with Roy & D.C. & Posey's expiring & a draft pick couldn't get you what you would get with Leonard? BTW I'm not advocating that trade or saying it would work I'm just pointing out that the assets you want already exist.

You bring up a good point. One thing I would say is that I do actually like some of the core group of guys we have but I think Tyler is an off the bench player, Roy just needs to be consistent, Collison is good but he regressed some this past year. So yes we do have assets to make such a trade but the more you have the less of your core you would have to give up. I also just want to throw this out there. Why not keep Leonard and trade Granger? You could probably get some good young players around the same age as PG and then they could all grow together. I really have this fear that the Miami Heat will be what the Bulls and Lakers were to the Pacers. The Pacers might be able to put together a good team but I don't see them overtaking the Heat until about 5 years from now after the Heat have aged.

Everyone wants to talk about how good we played the Bulls and yes we did play them well. However, the team we have to start trying to focus on is the Heat because last time I checked they destroyed the Bulls and won the series 4 games to 1. I do apologize if I want a championship from the Pacers too badly. I just don't see the direction we are going as a plan to beat the Heat. I guess that is just the way I think which might be a flaw of mine. I am always thinking ahead and I know the Heat for the next 5 years will pretty much at least be in the ECF every year barring injury. Then you have the Knicks that now have their two superstars and looking to add one more. The Nets have one and will be looking to add another. So where does that leave us? It just seems like we are more worried about having the best bench in the league than actually caring about the guys that will be playing the majority of the game minutes. What do we think we are going to do, wear the Heat, Knicks, ect down to where they will actually be tired... Those type of guys are in great shape and do not wear down very easily. Well enough about this... I just have too much on my mind about the Pacers maybe I just need to take a couple days away from the computer and let everything settle. I do appreciate all of the comments on this board and in this thread even if you don't agree with me.

Peck
06-25-2011, 12:48 AM
It's all good & yes I certainly understand that the great fear is that the Heat will be able to just year after year after year be able to win it all by bringing in good vets. willing to play for cheap to win a title.

No they didn't win this year but in their first year together they did get to the finals so your concern is not without merit.

However there is just no way that the Pacers are going to be able to put together a cast of all-stars to compete against them. We don't have crystal blue waters & the south beach lifestyle to make all of the high end free agents come here.

We, just like about 20 + other NBA teams, are going to have to do this the old fashioned way through building a better team.

Look if the only way you are going to be happy is with us going to the NBA finals I would suggest that you might want to look to another hobby. I'm 44 years old, have been a fan my entire life & I have only seen that happen once only to have the G.M. decide that getting there was not good enough & he wanted to rebuild, well here we are 11 years later & I'm now having to be satisfied that we are making the playoffs. I'm not really any more happy about that than you are, but if I want to stay sane or even slightly enjoy watching this I have to be happy that we are making moves in the right direction.

Look I don't want you to get me wrong here, I'm not saying getting George Hill is a game changer (I'm not saying it's not either) but I think he adds more to our club right now & will for the next two to three years than anyone from this draft ever would at where we were picking.

Now let me see if I can talk about Collison for a min.

You say he regressed this year. Do you think there was any reason for that or is it you think as a player he has already reached his high end and is going to go backwards?

Let me put this in your mind to think about and maybe give you some hope.

Darren Collison started out the season under the soul crushing spirit searing ball busting coaching of Jim "Satan" O'Brien. As bad as he is with power forwards and believe me he is bad he may be worse for point guards.

He does not believe in point guards having the ball in their hands, he wanted them to bring the ball up and pass it off and then the ball was supposed to move from side to side until someone could get a layup after all the opponents were so magically fooled by Jim's wizardry and witchcraft coaching. Never mind that it rarely if ever worked, that was his game plan and come hell or high water he was sticking to it.

The real problem though is that every point guard worth a crap from the time they are in jr. high till the pro's learns the game with the ball in their hands. D.C. said several time's he was having a very hard time adjusting to the system.

Low and behold Satan is exercised from the team and D.C. starts to improve, imagine that. Can you imagine how much better he will be under a coach that will let him be a p.g. and the benefit of training camp?

Freedom brother, that is what I am talking about. Both the players and the fans have been freed of the oppression that was Satan's yoke and now we are wild stallions roaming free. Instead of the heavy hand and whip the players will now have the horse whisperer in Frank "the tank" Vogel.

In fact I say unto you now, despair no more. Stand up, rejoice and celebrate your freedom.

Can I get a witness & a dancing fruit here???????????

:carrot::cucumber::mango::rock:

Sandman21
06-25-2011, 01:24 AM
Can I get a witness & a dancing fruit here???????????

:carrot::cucumber::mango::rock:
:kegboypreachit:
I'll give ya one better:

BOOOOOM BABY!

:dance::bdance::bgroovy:

woowoo
06-25-2011, 01:37 AM
Hm... I think we're pretty talented, just not top-tier talented. I do think we're a few moves away from being serious.

I think the biggest, most important move this off-season will be the boring but crucial appointment of our coaching staff. I feel like this team has accumulated some good young talent in the past 2-3 years and, frankly, the coaching staff was just goofing off. I am anxious to see the staff that Vogel surrounds himself with. I love Vogel himself, and I'm liking the names being bandied about as his staff... so I have a feeling they're going to show us the kind of talent we actually have.


This will change when Indiana signs Eric Gordon next season.... :)

And I am serious...

pacer4ever
06-25-2011, 02:08 AM
This will change when Indiana signs Eric Gordon next season.... :)

And I am serious...

Dakich was talking EJ to the Pacers a lot of the show today.

MagicRat
06-25-2011, 02:17 AM
Darren Collison started out the season under the soul crushing spirit searing ball busting coaching of Jim "Satan" O'Brien. As bad as he is with power forwards and believe me he is bad he may be worse for point guards.

He does not believe in point guards having the ball in their hands, he wanted them to bring the ball up and pass it off and then the ball was supposed to move from side to side until someone could get a layup after all the opponents were so magically fooled by Jim's wizardry and witchcraft coaching.

So now you're willing to give Jamaal a pass on the Phoenix game?

http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/jimodumbledore2.jpg

PacerFreak31
06-25-2011, 02:31 AM
It's all good & yes I certainly understand that the great fear is that the Heat will be able to just year after year after year be able to win it all by bringing in good vets. willing to play for cheap to win a title.

No they didn't win this year but in their first year together they did get to the finals so your concern is not without merit.

However there is just no way that the Pacers are going to be able to put together a cast of all-stars to compete against them. We don't have crystal blue waters & the south beach lifestyle to make all of the high end free agents come here.

We, just like about 20 + other NBA teams, are going to have to do this the old fashioned way through building a better team.

Look if the only way you are going to be happy is with us going to the NBA finals I would suggest that you might want to look to another hobby. I'm 44 years old, have been a fan my entire life & I have only seen that happen once only to have the G.M. decide that getting there was not good enough & he wanted to rebuild, well here we are 11 years later & I'm now having to be satisfied that we are making the playoffs. I'm not really any more happy about that than you are, but if I want to stay sane or even slightly enjoy watching this I have to be happy that we are making moves in the right direction.

Look I don't want you to get me wrong here, I'm not saying getting George Hill is a game changer (I'm not saying it's not either) but I think he adds more to our club right now & will for the next two to three years than anyone from this draft ever would at where we were picking.

Now let me see if I can talk about Collison for a min.

You say he regressed this year. Do you think there was any reason for that or is it you think as a player he has already reached his high end and is going to go backwards?

Let me put this in your mind to think about and maybe give you some hope.

Darren Collison started out the season under the soul crushing spirit searing ball busting coaching of Jim "Satan" O'Brien. As bad as he is with power forwards and believe me he is bad he may be worse for point guards.

He does not believe in point guards having the ball in their hands, he wanted them to bring the ball up and pass it off and then the ball was supposed to move from side to side until someone could get a layup after all the opponents were so magically fooled by Jim's wizardry and witchcraft coaching. Never mind that it rarely if ever worked, that was his game plan and come hell or high water he was sticking to it.

The real problem though is that every point guard worth a crap from the time they are in jr. high till the pro's learns the game with the ball in their hands. D.C. said several time's he was having a very hard time adjusting to the system.

Low and behold Satan is exercised from the team and D.C. starts to improve, imagine that. Can you imagine how much better he will be under a coach that will let him be a p.g. and the benefit of training camp?

Freedom brother, that is what I am talking about. Both the players and the fans have been freed of the oppression that was Satan's yoke and now we are wild stallions roaming free. Instead of the heavy hand and whip the players will now have the horse whisperer in Frank "the tank" Vogel.

In fact I say unto you now, despair no more. Stand up, rejoice and celebrate your freedom.

Can I get a witness & a dancing fruit here???????????

:carrot::cucumber::mango::rock:

You know Peck you just might be right about all of this. As someone pointed out earlier I think the Heat have more to lose with the up coming Collective Bargaining Agreement than most other teams. Maybe I am just worrying about nothing until we know exactly what is going to happen with that. The Heat might have to trade one of the big three in order to afford a bench. I guess lots can happen between now and then. I do believe getting Hill was a good trade now that I have had more time to digest everything. I do like your point about TEAM basketball beating the Heat and we saw that in the Dallas series. I also didn't realize that a lot of the Bulls players didn't have all that much playoff experience either.

I think to some degree I am going to take back what I said about Bird. I do think we still need to take maybe one or two more chances on some young players that we have really done our homework on. However, overall I can't complain about the job he has done. I really wish we could find a PF that has as much potential as PG has (so are 29 other teams) but I think we do need a young power forward with great potential. I still don't think we are completely in WIN NOW mode but maybe we will be more so after this next season and we have another year with the same coach and players. I think this coming year (hopefully we won't have a year long lockout) will tell us more about our players than any year in the last 10 years of Pacer basketball. I am actually starting to get more and more excited about this TEAM!!!! Maybe we are just a couple solid starters away from having something special. :dance::dance::dance::dance:

Chromeburn
06-25-2011, 03:07 AM
First post here, and I'll add my two cents. I didn't like the trade at first, I thought the potential of Leonard outweighed adding Hill. But the next day I changed my mind. We already have a 3/4 tweener in Granger and a young up and comer in Paul. Leonard would have added some toughness rebounding and a bit of defense, but he would not see the floor much. He would be an asset in a couple years when I think the Pacers will really start contending. But I think hill will be a bigger asset in the long run.

We are not in a win now situation, we are get getting closer to one, but that is a few years away. Where Hill will make his biggest contribution (IMO) is in the locker room. Hill has his stuff together. He will be a perfect leader for a young back court. He brings maturity, playoff experience, and an education in leadership from a team that has been at the top for a long time. Yet he is young enough that the other guys can relate to him.

This post probably seems it belongs in the other thread. But my point is, The acquisition of Hill probably seems like we are in a win now situation. But I think it is another building block for Bird's ultimate goal. Building a team sans a star, then trying to lure one here through FA. So when a star steps in, they can win immediately. Hill helps us get a young back court to mature, while also being a contributing piece. We're not in a win now situation, not for a few more years. This was another building block.

The only thing I wish they had done is try and get a pick in next years draft. That draft is going to be lights out. If they can get into the lottery, they can get the power forward they need.

Really?
06-25-2011, 09:47 AM
What makes Leonard any more of an asset than Roy Hibbert? Or Darren Collison? Or Tyler Hansbrough?

You don't think Danny with Roy & D.C. & Posey's expiring & a draft pick couldn't get you what you would get with Leonard? BTW I'm not advocating that trade or saying it would work I'm just pointing out that the assets you want already exist.

To add to what PacerFreaks said, when teams trade away veterans they usually want young players who have a lot of potential because they are typically in a rebuilding process. Pretty much all the guys in the Melo trade were young Chandler was 23, Mosgrov was 24 without a whole year of experience, Dinillo was 22, Anthony Randolph was 21, Felton the oldest at 26.

Kawhi is only 19 years old with good defense, and potential to increase his offensive game, he contributes to a team without the ball in his hands and that is key in the NBA.

The centerpiece of all these trades for a top players is a young guy with potential, along with draft picks... Hibbert 24 is good and okay potential, Collison 23 is young but seems to have leveled of(hope I am wrong), Tyler 25.. I don't think so... I feel all would be good assets in a trade but do to Kawhi's age, potential and skillset I believe he can turn into a bigger asset than any of them, especially if he shows well in his first year.

d_c
06-25-2011, 09:57 AM
You know Peck you just might be right about all of this. As someone pointed out earlier I think the Heat have more to lose with the up coming Collective Bargaining Agreement than most other teams. Maybe I am just worrying about nothing until we know exactly what is going to happen with that. The Heat might have to trade one of the big three in order to afford a bench. I guess lots can happen between now and then. I do believe getting Hill was a good trade now that I have had more time to digest everything. I do like your point about TEAM basketball beating the Heat and we saw that in the Dallas series.

Actually, I think the Mavs have the potential to hurt more. Year in and year out, they've relied on Cuban's wallet and ability to go way, way way above the luxury tax to build that deep TEAM everyone praises so much.

What if from now on you implemented something that looks more like a hard cap than the current soft cap?

Then all of a sudden, Cuban can't be doing these sign and trades every year where he takes on a bad contract in order to gain an asset. He's been building up his team that way for years now. They should be praised for putting together a team that plays TEAM ball, yes. But the way they did it is not something most owners would pay for.

Really?
06-25-2011, 09:58 AM
One thing to add about this well Kawhi wouldn't see the floor much stuff... does he really have to see the floor much... when we drafted George we had Granger, Rush, Dunleavy, thought Posey would play a role... Didn't really leave much time for George of the bench.

He would just have to earn his time just like George did, from judging the current roster it looked like George would mostly play the 2 with little time at the 3, Kawhi would have gotten in some minutes, plus I think he will need a yr in the league before he deserves 20 min off the bench anyways.

I don't think the George trade hurt us in anyway and I hope that he grabs the starting PG spot but I can see why people would want him as the 6th man also. I just wanted to point out that keeping Kawhi for the reason of him not seeing the floor much isn't valid to me...

Pacer!
06-25-2011, 10:13 AM
One thing to add about this well Kawhi wouldn't see the floor much stuff... does he really have to see the floor much... when we drafted George we had Granger, Rush, Dunleavy, thought Posey would play a role... Didn't really leave much time for George of the bench.

He would just have to earn his time just like George did, from judging the current roster it looked like George would mostly play the 2 with little time at the 3, Kawhi would have gotten in some minutes, plus I think he will need a yr in the league before he deserves 20 min off the bench anyways.

I don't think the George trade hurt us in anyway and I hope that he grabs the starting PG spot but I can see why people would want him as the 6th man also. I just wanted to point out that keeping Kawhi for the reason of him not seeing the floor much isn't valid to me...

I definitely agree. Kawhi would have found ample PT with a combination of minutes behind Granger, with Mikey D gone, aswell as behind Tyler at the 4 (unless of course Bird made a move for a PF this off-season). There would have undoubtedly been room/minutes for Kawhi with the current roster, whether he would have earned those potential minutes is another question.

That being said, I'm not against the trade.

PacerHound
06-25-2011, 10:15 AM
Maybe some of you guys would enjoy life more if you quit worrying so much about being a top 3 or 4 contender. It is great to have goals and work toward them and see some success as you are making progress and getting better but winning a championship is not everything. Some of the major league baseball teams have not won the World Series for decades yet fans are still able to go out and enjoy the games.

I don't think the Pacers will ever win a championship but if people can enjoy watching the Cubs play we ought to be be able to enjoy watching the Pacers play as long as they put a hard working crew out there who it is obvious are giving it there all. They did that when they played Chicago and I enjoyed it thoroughly even tho we lost.

If a guy can never enjoy it, whatever it is in life, unless he is #1 he is going to have a pretty miserable life.

mildlysane
06-25-2011, 10:18 AM
Maybe "win now" is too strong of a statement, but I really think we are closer to "get some veteran help and start winning consistently in the playoffs" than "get rid of your best player so that a rookie at the 15th pick in a weak draft can play get some minutes." Most of us want to build on our playoff showing. Maybe even get into the 2nd round. You know, pick the fruits of our 3 year growing plan. If we keep trading our assets to get younger and younger, we will never reach the promise land, unless we really luck out on a Durant or LeBron in the draft. I am sorry, but I cannot understand why some people want to go backwards after all the turmoil we have had to deal with the last few years. I guess some people didn't have to suffer through many years of mediocrity in the 80's, while watching fading-in-and-out WTTV-4 with foil wrapped around your antenna. And then FINALLY making the playoffs. And then after several years of 1st round exits, finally getting into the 2nd round....when we got veteran Byron Scott. To me, "win now" means start getting veterans that can help you win in the playoffs. Getting even younger now means being perpetually lottery-bound. I believe we were already the 2nd youngest team this year. I know that there are exceptions, so don't hit me with OK City.

Really?
06-25-2011, 11:20 AM
Maybe some of you guys would enjoy life more if you quit worrying so much about being a top 3 or 4 contender. It is great to have goals and work toward them and see some success as you are making progress and getting better but winning a championship is not everything. Some of the major league baseball teams have not won the World Series for decades yet fans are still able to go out and enjoy the games.

I don't think the Pacers will ever win a championship but if people can enjoy watching the Cubs play we ought to be be able to enjoy watching the Pacers play as long as they put a hard working crew out there who it is obvious are giving it there all. They did that when they played Chicago and I enjoyed it thoroughly even tho we lost.

If a guy can never enjoy it, whatever it is in life, unless he is #1 he is going to have a pretty miserable life.

So you think fans come out to see their team lose? and shouldn't contending for a championship be every teams goal?

We enjoy the wins, and losses really suck, especially when we think we could have won... we will always be Pacer fans and support or team but we would also like to contend; people pay a lot of money when the job market is down to come out and watch a game. When your team is losing and you have other places that you could use your money you put off going to Pacers game off.

Just look at the Colts, same town, winning team, Stadium is packed... those same people that go to those games are the same people that used to go to the Pacers games when they were winning, but people pay for entertainment and satisfaction.

Reason for bringing up money is that everything is a financial right now, I can be a Pacers fan at home or at Conseco, and I believe that that is the difference with winning and losing... where would people rather see the game when money is short.

As far as contending, that will entice more people to come out to games which will also make the owners happy, which will also make their pockets happy, which will also make the fans happy since the team won't have to be sold because of loss of profits.

Peck
06-25-2011, 03:20 PM
To add to what PacerFreaks said, when teams trade away veterans they usually want young players who have a lot of potential because they are typically in a rebuilding process. Pretty much all the guys in the Melo trade were young Chandler was 23, Mosgrov was 24 without a whole year of experience, Dinillo was 22, Anthony Randolph was 21, Felton the oldest at 26.

Kawhi is only 19 years old with good defense, and potential to increase his offensive game, he contributes to a team without the ball in his hands and that is key in the NBA.

The centerpiece of all these trades for a top players is a young guy with potential, along with draft picks... Hibbert 24 is good and okay potential, Collison 23 is young but seems to have leveled of(hope I am wrong), Tyler 25.. I don't think so... I feel all would be good assets in a trade but do to Kawhi's age, potential and skillset I believe he can turn into a bigger asset than any of them, especially if he shows well in his first year.

Leonard has value right now because he is an unknown, period. The moment training camp arrives and the first few pre-season games his value with either go up or down depending on his play.

Are you really going to tell me that an undersized power forward who does not have the shooting skills to be a really good three in this league is going to have more value to G.M.'s than a 7'2" center who has a documented outstanding work ethic & solid fundemental skills all because he is 5 years younger? Most centers, not the superstar centers but regular centers, don't even come into their own until their late 20's.

Sorry but I just am not going to believe that.

I'll also say that I don't even believe that he has more value right now than D.C. or Tyler but I don't think it's worth arguing the point over them, but I am not going to give you Hibbert.

Right now his value plus other garbage picks equaled George Hill, I'm not sure how you think he could be the centerpiece of a trade to bring in (fill in the blank) superstar.

PacerFreak31
06-25-2011, 04:23 PM
Peck the reason I even started this thread was because I was upset with Bird and don't think he really has a plan to make us competitive against the Heat. After looking at our roster I can see that I wasn't giving him enough credit. We do have a pretty good core already. I guess I am caught in the I want my cake and eat it too phase. I want us to get a superstar or two but I don't want to give up ANY of our young core to get it. That is why I think if we were able to draft maybe a few players this year and next with lots of potential we could maybe use THEM as trade bate and not give up any of our core.

I think that was exactly how I was thinking about everything. However, we just don't know what rules we will be working with once the CBA has been agreed upon. I think if we get the hard cap that the Pacers are in wonderful position to get a superstar or two! You can't go buy our cap numbers now and say because we have X number of dollars committed we will have this much cap space because if not immediately then all active contracts will be phased down. It will almost be like all the players will have to take say a 20% pay cut over 3 years and then those are the numbers you would have to work with. That is why the Players don't want a hard cap. However, that is what would bring every team on even playing grounds.

So just maybe we will be able to get our two superstar players with our cap space next year not NOT have to make any trades to do it. I am not at all saying it would happen but could you imagine Chris Paul and Dwight Howard on our current team WITHOUT losing any player from our core? I think the Pacers have more riding on the CBA than just about any other team in the league.

vnzla81
06-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Maybe some of you guys would enjoy life more if you quit worrying so much about being a top 3 or 4 contender. It is great to have goals and work toward them and see some success as you are making progress and getting better but winning a championship is not everything. Some of the major league baseball teams have not won the World Series for decades yet fans are still able to go out and enjoy the games.

I don't think the Pacers will ever win a championship but if people can enjoy watching the Cubs play we ought to be be able to enjoy watching the Pacers play as long as they put a hard working crew out there who it is obvious are giving it there all. They did that when they played Chicago and I enjoyed it thoroughly even tho we lost.

If a guy can never enjoy it, whatever it is in life, unless he is #1 he is going to have a pretty miserable life.

I'm sorry man but this seems to me like a losers attitude.

Ozwalt72
06-25-2011, 04:32 PM
A good question is, with all the youth we already have on our roster, do we need more rookies on the team? (Keep in mind, Stanko would be a rookie if he came over)

A case could be made for teams having stacked youth in the past to their detriment.

vnzla81
06-25-2011, 04:37 PM
By the way I don't understand all this complaining about us not keeping Kawhi, I'm pretty sure that is who SA wanted, I don't think the Pacers wanted him and if they had kept the pick, it looks to me like they would have drafted somebody else, maybe one of the euro guys and I know how many people here like those euro guys...

Hicks
06-25-2011, 05:11 PM
I'm sorry man but this seems to me like a losers attitude.

Do you think you're a loser when the Pacers lose, and a winner when the Pacers win?

vnzla81
06-25-2011, 05:23 PM
Do you think you're a loser when the Pacers lose, and a winner when the Pacers win?

No really, but I think that making excuses not to be a winning team is a losers attitude, if I wanted to root for a team that never had a chance to win a championship I'll be rooting for Minnesotta or The Bobcats.

idioteque
06-25-2011, 05:31 PM
No really, but I think that making excuses not to be a winning team is a losers attitude, if I wanted to root for a team that never had a chance to win a championship I'll be rooting for Minnesotta or The Bobcats.

I feel the same way. Seeing that we're a growing team, we can't regress next year and at least have to be more competitive in the playoffs in terms of wins and losses. I will be disappointed if we're not in the conference finals in the next 3-4 years and disappointed later if we don't win a championship a few years after that. Otherwise, what's the point? Becoming the next iteration of the Atlanta Hawks would get old after a couple of years.

The 90's were great and I remember them fondly, sure. But is there still a tinge of disappointment because we never won it all? Absolutely.

Peck
06-25-2011, 05:40 PM
There is middle ground people.

It doesn't have to be suck or championship. There is the building phase.

To me we are in the building towards something phase.

Does there come a point in time that just making the playoffs is not good enough? Yes, for me anyway I felt that way back in the 90's.

But right now we are not there yet.

Look I know some will disagree but getting to mediocre is an improvement from my perspective. Even making the playoffs we were a losing team.

So I want to see us progress and yes at some point in time I will agree that we need to move in a direction to try and win it all.

But unless we have superstars falling in our lapse I don't see that happening this next season.

rm1369
06-25-2011, 06:08 PM
A good question is, with all the youth we already have on our roster, do we need more rookies on the team? (Keep in mind, Stanko would be a rookie if he came over)

A case could be made for teams having stacked youth in the past to their detriment.

I agree with this. My concern is the quality of the young guys we have. I feel like we are building our walls on a weak foundation.

aaronb
06-25-2011, 06:22 PM
There is middle ground people.

It doesn't have to be suck or championship. There is the building phase.

To me we are in the building towards something phase.

Does there come a point in time that just making the playoffs is not good enough? Yes, for me anyway I felt that way back in the 90's.

But right now we are not there yet.

Look I know some will disagree but getting to mediocre is an improvement from my perspective. Even making the playoffs we were a losing team.

So I want to see us progress and yes at some point in time I will agree that we need to move in a direction to try and win it all.

But unless we have superstars falling in our lapse I don't see that happening this next season.


Agree with this sentiment somewhat.

However a roster like OKC or the Clippers getting to the playoffs is one thing. Stacking our roster with young role players just doesn't seem like a recipe for long term success?

How much growth are we going to see from our "young core"?

vnzla81
06-25-2011, 06:31 PM
Agree with this sentiment somewhat.

However a roster like OKC or the Clippers getting to the playoffs is one thing. Stacking our roster with young role players just doesn't seem like a recipe for long term success?

How much growth are we going to see from our "young core"?

I don't believe in our foundation but I think that we have enough money to buy it.

Ozwalt72
06-25-2011, 06:44 PM
I don't believe in our foundation but I think that we have enough money to buy it.

Not this year though.

Peck
06-25-2011, 06:46 PM
Agree with this sentiment somewhat.

However a roster like OKC or the Clippers getting to the playoffs is one thing. Stacking our roster with young role players just doesn't seem like a recipe for long term success?

How much growth are we going to see from our "young core"?

We won't know until we see it.

Hibbert may still be a few years away from even reaching the beginning of his prime, that is if he ever has one at all. Indications are that he will, but I admit it's a crap shoot.

I think you & I may look at Paul George a little differently. You may see him as a decent player & I actually think that with the proper offensive coaching he may be a very special player.

How special? I don't know. I think around Granger seem right, which I realize you & VNZLA81 don't see as special at all.

I have no idea about Hill. He may have peaked, he may blossom under being more responsible for the teams success. There is no way to tell till it happens.

Yes, I'd love to have drafted Kevin Durrant or Blake, but we didn't so there is nothing we can do now but try and build on what we have.

Let me ask you a question.

Where do you think the Atlanta Hawks are right now? Do you see them as a team that is a title contender, a mid level team or a team that needs to blow up and start over?

Really?
06-25-2011, 07:19 PM
Leonard has value right now because he is an unknown, period. The moment training camp arrives and the first few pre-season games his value with either go up or down depending on his play.

Are you really going to tell me that an undersized power forward who does not have the shooting skills to be a really good three in this league is going to have more value to G.M.'s than a 7'2" center who has a documented outstanding work ethic & solid fundemental skills all because he is 5 years younger? Most centers, not the superstar centers but regular centers, don't even come into their own until their late 20's.

Sorry but I just am not going to believe that.

I'll also say that I don't even believe that he has more value right now than D.C. or Tyler but I don't think it's worth arguing the point over them, but I am not going to give you Hibbert.

Right now his value plus other garbage picks equaled George Hill, I'm not sure how you think he could be the centerpiece of a trade to bring in (fill in the blank) superstar.

First not mad that Pacers didn't keep Kawhi, but just addressing reasons why it wouldn't have been bad if they did.

As far as his potential, I think that he is a 3 in the NBA... he has a lot of potential to improve his shot. I think his development in this particular area will really determine his future value, which could turn out to be extremely high if he can improve this aspect... I like Hibbert but it seems like he will always be limited by his agility, confidence... I like him but I will say that if Kawhi develops a shot I think his value will be higher than Hibberts.

I feel that other teams always feel that they can be the one to get the most out of a player young inexperienced player who only needs to fix certain aspects of his game.

Please don't take this as me thinking Hibbert sucks in any way... but I really feel that he hasn't improved as much as anyone would hope... I really think that this year coming up will be the year that shows the player that he will be for the rest of his career...(bold statement)

pacer4ever
06-25-2011, 10:29 PM
We won't know until we see it.

Hibbert may still be a few years away from even reaching the beginning of his prime, that is if he ever has one at all. Indications are that he will, but I admit it's a crap shoot.

I think you & I may look at Paul George a little differently. You may see him as a decent player & I actually think that with the proper offensive coaching he may be a very special player.

How special? I don't know. I think around Granger seem right, which I realize you & VNZLA81 don't see as special at all.

I have no idea about Hill. He may have peaked, he may blossom under being more responsible for the teams success. There is no way to tell till it happens.

Yes, I'd love to have drafted Kevin Durrant or Blake, but we didn't so there is nothing we can do now but try and build on what we have.

Let me ask you a question.

Where do you think the Atlanta Hawks are right now? Do you see them as a team that is a title contender, a mid level team or a team that needs to blow up and start over?

Atlanta needs to blow it up if they ever want to win a title IMO.

PacerPenguins
06-25-2011, 10:35 PM
If we get NeNe or David West ....

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/crabby1971/Its-on-like-donkey-kong.jpg

Eleazar
06-25-2011, 11:21 PM
Atlanta needs to blow it up if they ever want to win a title IMO.

I wouldn't say the need to blow it, but they do need to make some major changes, first step is stop overpaying every player.

esabyrn333
06-25-2011, 11:30 PM
I wouldn't say the need to blow it, but they do need to make some major changes, first step is stop overpaying every player.


I would say first step is trade us Josh Smith for cap relief. That would help them out greatly as a Pacer Fan I would have to learn and deal with something like that buy just knowing we did Atlanta a such a great favor....:happydanc:buddies:

vnzla81
06-26-2011, 12:30 AM
How special? I don't know. I think around Granger seem right, which I realize you & VNZLA81 don't see as special at all.

I think PG is special, special enough that I think he makes Danny expendable, he is one of the reason I'm confident that we are not going to lose much if we trade Danny for young pieces that could play with PG in the future when they all hit their prime together.

Indra
06-26-2011, 10:02 AM
See Peck this is where I think most people are getting lost on my comments. I don't think that Leonard is a good fit for our team. However if we are ever going to trade for a star player it will take guys like Leonard to pull it off. If say we had Danny and someone like Howard or CP3 then I would actually like this trade but again we need as many assets as we can get in order to trade for a star. I never said Leonard would be a good fit but he would be a piece to a bigger trade that could get us a star player.

And how exactly does one turn a mid-round pick from a crappy draft into star talent? And you've admitted that this player doesn't fit on our team. He wouldn't have the opportunity to showcase his (limited) talents on this team because he's got at least two people in front of him on the depth chart. Bringing in a guy like Hill who fits this team, is already a better wing defender than anybody on our team, who instantly makes our team better, and will have ample opportunities to showcase his (considerable) talents puts us in a much better position to make a trade for a star down the road.

You claim Leonard would be a "piece to a bigger trade that could get us a star player," but no team is going to give up a star player for a guy who's been riding the bench/playing out of position for a mediocre team. Beyond that he really has no position on this team. Where do you play him? He's simply not as valuable as you would like to think he is. Hill improves this team NOW, and gives us a really good chance of improving this team considerably in the future.

Sparhawk
06-26-2011, 10:20 AM
It's kind of frustrating that when Bird doesn't make trades he's Mr. cold feet, and when he does make trades they don't make us better. I dont understand how it doesn't though:

George Hill + 29th pick > 15th pick, 42 pick, irrelevant player

I don't hate the trade, but we did give up too much.

Indra
06-26-2011, 10:30 AM
I don't hate the trade, but we did give up too much.

What exactly did we give up? Leonard, who doesn't fit on this team and has glaring holes in his game, the 42nd pick in a very weak draft, and the rights to a Euro player who doesn't have any intention of coming over to play for us, and his contract will have to be bought out before he even steps foot over here.

And in return we got a two way player who can defend several positions, brings scoring we desperately needed, a winning attitude, and all the intangibles you could ask for. Leonard may fit with the Spurs, but he never would have here, and the rest of the trade was filler that is inconsequential.

Hibbert
06-26-2011, 10:36 AM
I have officially given up on Bird. However, I want to make one thing clear. I will always support the Pacers and cheer for them no matter what. The thing that bothers me is that I don't think the Pacers have any type of vision or plan. CP3 and Howard are not just going to decide playing for Indiana is cool. We won't be able to sign anything more than role players on a championship team that we will try to use them as starters. Their are two ways we are going to get better. First is through the draft and second is through trades. What most people seem to not understand is in order to get a good player your have to either be willing to give up an equally good player or give up some young talent.

This is where I fear Bird doesn't know what he is doing. Last night he traded away what a lot of analyst say was the steal of the draft. We received at best the 6th man on our roster. These are the type of "safe" deals Bird does but it kills us as a franchise. Right now we need to get our hands on as much young talent as we can! Why? Because if we are ever going to trade for a star player we have to have the young assets to get a deal done. The Nets ended up with D.Will because they had the players to get the deal done. Right now we have NO young players to offer in a trade, assuming Bird is really that high on Lance.

We have PG but he is part of our core, AJ and Rush will get us nothing in a trade and teams can just wait till after this season and sign them cheap anyway, and our other players are around 25 years old which limits their potential to most GM's. So I don't get that we have all this young talent when only three players younger than 25 figure into our long term plans. Which brings me to my main point.

The roster we have now is not and never will be a roster you look at and start saying we need to build to win now. We just don't have the players to get a deal done via trade and there are no big time FA's going to sign to play in Indiana. This is when I think we are going to be hurt A LOT for not going ahead and starting a total rebuilding project. We were caught too long in the should we rebuild or retool mode. That is why you don't trade away top ten talent for a backup combo guard. GM's that trade away Star players want draft picks, players with potential, and cap space. Right now we only can offer cap space.

Being in this win now mode that we are now about to enter is going to cause a lot of heartache for Pacer fans. In the next three years even if we use our cap space correctly we will never beat the Miami's or the Knick's of the future. At best I see us as maybe the 4th best team in the East and that is if everything falls into place and we might win a first round series but that will be our ceiling. So I hope everyone enjoys having a home town guy on our Roster but bring him here could have just cost us the chance to add another piece to a bigger trade that could have brought us a star.

I'll end with this. The Boston Celtics did it the right way. They kept their one star, got as much young talent as they could, and then traded for two superstars. They have been contenders ever since and yes now they are getting older but at least they were seriously consider title contenders and actually have a championship to show for it. They didn't go for trades that would give them a backup combo guard, they held onto their youth and traded it to get their star players. If you remember Boston couldn't draw in the FA's while they were not winning much but after they got the star power they were able to get some of the FA's to sign there. It is not the perfect model but I think it is a more common model that teams are starting to copy. At least it is a direction instead of going into win now mode with a roster as weak as ours.

This thread you posted/started seems like a panic. Its way too early to determine this. We have the cap space to sign a star player in free agency or we can do a trade and take on more salary than we send out. I like what Bird has done recently and I believe we will all be very pleased this year with our Pacers team. Just wait until the season starts and lets see what our roster looks like.

Reginald
06-26-2011, 10:42 AM
By the way I don't understand all this complaining about us not keeping Kawhi, I'm pretty sure that is who SA wanted, I don't think the Pacers wanted him and if they had kept the pick, it looks to me like they would have drafted somebody else, maybe one of the euro guys and I know how many people here like those euro guys...

Ditto.

By all accounts, the trade was a done deal and then we made the pick explicitly on behalf of San Antonio. Anyone's argument that begins with, 'We should have kept Kawhi" is fundamentally flawed because we never wanted him in the first place, period.

BillS
06-26-2011, 01:06 PM
I'm sorry man but this seems to me like a losers attitude.

It might be a losers attitude for the team or someone who has control over what the team does, but as a fan you need to have perspective AND understand just what it is about sports that makes you enjoy it. If wining is the only thing that fits the bill, you'd better be prepared to be a bandwagoner.

ksuttonjr76
06-26-2011, 02:42 PM
With some posters, we would be trading for young players and picks every two years.

I GUARANTEED that if Paul George doesn't improve by more than 2 PPG, there's going to be people who will want to trade him for picks in the 2012 NBA Draft.

pacer4ever
06-26-2011, 02:44 PM
With some posters, we would be trading for young players and picks every two years.

I GUARANTEED that if Paul George doesn't improve by more than 2 PPG, there's going to be people who will want to trade him for picks in the 2012 NBA Draft.

If it was the 1st pick than yes i would. Next years draft is gonna be sick.

ilive4sports
06-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Of course we don't have enough talent, thats why we traded for George Hill you silly head.