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Cancel_2002
06-24-2011, 03:29 AM
Will anyone post this ESPN Insider article?

ilive4sports
06-24-2011, 03:43 AM
Hollinger likes it for the spurs? Now I like it even more.

pacer4ever
06-24-2011, 03:44 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/746897-2011-nba-draft-grades-how-many-clubs-earned-a-failing-grade-in-round-1


I never trust BR but this guy hates the move lol


I agree that the Spurs won this trade from there point of view but we did good also.

I was shocked that the Spurs wanted Leonard instead of Singleton. I really wanted Chris and it is TBA if i like this trade i will have to wait and see how we use George Hill and if he can blossom here.

pacer4ever
06-24-2011, 03:47 AM
Hollinger likes it for the spurs? Now I like it even more.

I think there can be 2 winners. I think he will say he likes it for the SAS because they get value for a player that they would of had to overpay to keep.


I also worry that Hill is just a system guy and if you remove him from that system he will struggle i guess we will see.

ndcoltsnpacers
06-24-2011, 04:12 AM
It's also a lot safer as a writer to say the the Spurs got the best of this trade just based on both teams recent history.

Day-V
06-24-2011, 04:17 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/746897-2011-nba-draft-grades-how-many-clubs-earned-a-failing-grade-in-round-1


I never trust BR but this guy hates the move lol.

I normally don't rant, but I gave that idiot author a good piece of my mind on there. Feel much better now. Here's the transcript.


"Continually failing"? Do you people at Bleacher Report even bother to do a fact check anymore?

Larry Bird has steadily brought this franchise out of the abyss in the past few years and has brought in guys to add to the core in each of the past few drafts. After Donnie Walsh put Indiana in Franchise Cap Hell with the god-awful Stephen Jackson and Al Harrington trade a few years ago, Bird was finally able to drag the Pacers out of it, and even turn Troy "The Matador" Murphy's expiring contract into Darren Collison. Not only that, but in the 3 prior drafts he has added guys who are all now starters by trading the Ghost of Jermaine O'Neal for Roy Hibbert, drafting Tyler Hansbrough, and picking up Paul George last year.

Bird did exactly what the Pacers needed. He brought in a Combo Guard who can adjust to certain situations in that he can help guard against the bigger PG's like Derrick Rose and Deren Williams who both ate Darren Collison alive last season. And he can also help stabilize a bench that was in desperate need (especially in the playoffs) of a guy who could score and score by creating his own shot.

And exactly where the **** was Leonard supposed to play? Yeah, great, he's a 6'7 Forward who can play some good defense. That's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that the Pacers already have a 6'9 Danny Granger and a 6'10 Paul George (who is still friggin growing) who already do that and do it pretty damn well on most nights. Not to mention, they can actually put the ball in the hole.

So Bird trades a 1st and 2nd round pick in one of the weakest drafts ever, as well as the rights to some Euro guy who will never come over to the states, for a young veteran who is solid and will help the team immediately?

Sounds like a pretty ****ing fantastic deal to me.

Oh, and Bird's about to re-hire Frank Vogel, as well as Brian Shaw (You know,the guy Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant wanted to be Head Coach of the Lakers? I guess they're a pretty good team) as an Assistant Coach. AND the Pacers have about $25 million in cap relief to go get a guy in Free Agency, or make trades with the Expiring Contract in James Posey, a talented but stupid Lance Stephenson, or even Danny Granger, to go out and get a proper PF to put next to Hibbert so Hansbrough can go be the league's most feared 6th Man.




......Are you sure you didn't mean for this to be about David Kahn and his ineptitude up in Minnesota?

King Tuts Tomb
06-24-2011, 04:26 AM
They usually post all the insider stuff on this Chinese basketball site (not that I can read Chinese, it's just the first link that comes up on Google when I search the article title).

Hollinger seems to really like it for both teams.

http://bbs.hoopchina.com/2411475.html


Draft analysis: Spurs sharp in dealing
By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
Archive

You want to know why the Spurs win 50 or more games every year and always have their cap situation under control, while the rest of the league scrambles and flails around them? Check out tonight's draft for a good example.

In a stellar trade that showed how they're always a step ahead of everyone else, the Spurs sent guard George Hill to Indiana for the rights to the 15th pick (Kawhi Leonard), the rights to the 42nd pick (Davis Bertans), and the rights to European Erazem Lorbek.

On paper, trading an established rotation player for the 15th pick in a weak draft seems like a reckless gamble, but there's a key difference between George Hill and Kawhi Leonard: their paychecks.

Hill will be a restricted free agent after the coming season, and the Spurs looked at their books and made a decision that they couldn't pay two point guards (Hill and the equally widely shopped Tony Parker) -- especially while they were also paying Manu Ginobili, Tim Duncan and Richard Jefferson and looking at a more restrictive post-lockout salary cap environment.

Leonard, meanwhile, will be on a rookie contract for the next four years, providing the Spurs with a very reasonably paid but (likely) productive player to offset the millions they're paying declining assets like Duncan.

So Hill goes now, before the Spurs have any drama over whether to extend him or risk losing him in restricted free agency next summer. San Antonio keeps its cap situation somewhat under control, and can plug James Anderson, Gary Neal, rookie Cory Joseph and whatever veteran backup point guard they sign into Hill's former minutes without losing much in the backcourt.

Meanwhile, Leonard fills a more glaring need -- a combo forward who can help them match up when opponents go small. This has been an Achilles heel of the Spurs for years, and presuming Leonard can play, he solves the problem. While he's not the classic San Antonio corner-3 shooting small forward of yore, the Spurs needed a young energizer like this.

So yes, it's a great deal for San Antonio, and it illustrates how the Spurs have stayed on top of the standings for more than a decade by staying two steps ahead of the competition. Just to emphasize that point, the Spurs also got a second-round pick in the deal and used it to nab Latvian sharpshooter Davis Bertans, who is totally unready now but likely will prove a steal when he decides to come over in a few years.

But, I should point out, Indiana didn't fare badly either. The Pacers converted a trade exception from the Troy Murphy deal into a big combo guard who will help fill the rotation -- he'll back up Darren Collison at the point and play a lot of 2, where Mike Dunleavy is a free agent and Brandon Rush is trade bait.

Meanwhile, his arrival doesn't mess up Indiana's financial plans -- they can afford to pay Hill and he'll likely want to stay since he's from Indianapolis. And since he only counts $2 million this year against their current hoard of cap space, his arrival won't cost the Pacers anything in free agency.

It's a good example of two teams using the system to their advantage, but for me it's especially illustrative of how San Antonio has played the cap-management game so much better than most of its rivals over the past decade.

Now let's look at the rest of Thursday's trades:

Blazers and Nugget swap point guards; Mavs get Rudy
The full damages on this deal are extensive, but it basically boils down to the Blazers swapping Andre Miller to Denver for Raymond Felton. The nitty-gritty: Portland sends Miller to Denver and Rudy Fernandez and the rights to Finnish guard Petteri Koponen to Dallas; Dallas sends the No. 26 pick (Jordan Hamilton) to Denver and the No. 57 pick to Portland; Denver sends Felton to Portland.

The Felton-Miller trade is a rarity: It's almost entirely about basketball. The two have virtually identically contracts that both expire after this season. Portland gets eight years younger at the point guard spot, although Felton looked very heavy by the end of last season and really needs to get that potbelly under control if he's going to continue playing at his current level.

The two were roughly equal as players a year ago, but each fits better in the other team's system -- Miller's lack of shooting was a real problem in Portland but shouldn't be an issue on an up-tempo Denver team that has a lot of bombers, while Felton bristled as a backup in Denver but will be a full-time starter with the Blazers.

The Blazers lose Fernandez in the swap, which leaves a dent, but with Greg Odenpotentially returning at the center spot and LaMarcus Aldridge on the other block, Portland needs a point guard who can make a jump shot. Felton isn't the best in this category, but compared to Miller, he looks like Steve Kerr. He's a better defender than Miller, too.

Portland also drafted Nolan Smith in the first round, who presumably will be the backup point guard and can pair with Felton in the backcourt -- he and Elliot Williams, who missed last year with knee surgery, should fill the void left by Rudy's departure.

For Denver, Miller is probably going to come off the bench behind Ty Lawson, although I strongly suspect they may try to flip Miller for assets at the trade deadline. He was beloved in Denver in his last stint and will thrive in their up-tempo style, and the Nuggets get a considerable asset in the No. 26 pick, Jordan Hamilton, as well. Hamilton can really stroke it, and will likely fill free agent J.R. Smith's role as a source of 3-pointers, questionable shot selection and bad body language off the bench.

For the world champion Mavs (yes, I'm still getting used to this too), this trade basically boils down to getting a low-salaried player to fill some likely free-agent vacancies. The Mavs could have done the same with pick No. 26, but Fernandez is a sure bet to contribute right away in a known role and I suspect he'll be better in Dallas's more open, faster-paced system than he was in Portland's grinding approach. Given that Caron Butler, J.J. Barea andDeShawn Stevenson all are free agents, it was a good proactive step for Dallas. Koponen is likely a throwaway but could help Dallas when they need to tear this all down in two years or so.

Minnesota's cascading trade
The Timberwolves started the night with the 20th pick in the draft and Jonny Flynn. At the end of the draft they had Brad Miller, a likely late first-rounder from Memphis in 2013, two future second-rounders, the 43rd pick (Malcolm Lee), and a whole mess of cash that was included in four separate transactions involving Chicago, Miami, New Jersey and Houston. The Wolves traded down in slow motion -- from 20th to 23rd to 28th to 31st to selling the pick entirely -- and got paid at each step.

Houston got No. 20 from Minnesota (Lithuanian big man Donatas Motiejunas) along with Flynn in return for Brad Miller, picks No. 23 and No. 38 and the future first-rounder from Memphis. (That pick, incidentally, is more protected than Fort Knox -- it will never be in the top 14. It's top-14 protected in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016; at that point it downgrades to a second-rounder.)

Cash-wise the deal is nearly neutral -- Flynn makes less, but insurance will likely pick up a chunk of Miller's contract (Miller had microfracture surgery in the offseason). The interesting part is that the Rockets included a future first-rounder in the deal, which indicates some value was placed on Flynn despite his horrid play last season.

Obviously, the value for Houston depends on getting something out of Flynn (either in trade or on the court) and how Motiejunas develops. But look at it this way -- it would have cost them $3 million to salary dump Miller, which is also the going rate for a late first-rounder. They basically gave Minnesota a late first-rounder to dump Miller instead, and now have a wild card with Flynn. Maybe he develops and maybe he stays terrible. But Houston doesn't really lose anything by giving it a whirl.

For a 22-year-old who had a fairly solid rookie season at age 20? I'd say that's a pretty fair gamble to take, and another cagey move by the Rockets as they build for the post-Yao era.

But back to the Wolves. Having traded down to No. 23, they traded down again by sending the pick to Chicago, who made a phenomenal Eurostash pick with Montenegrin forwardNikola Mirotic. In return, Minnesota got picks 28 and 43, and cash.

Then they deal No. 28 to Miami, who made a very strong pick with unheralded Cleveland State guard Norris Cole, and Minnesota in return got pick No. 31, a future second-rounder, and cash. The irony here is that the No. 28 pick was originally Miami's -- the Heat sent it to Toronto in the Chris Bosh trade, and via Toronto, Chicago, and Minnesota, it boomeranged back.

The Wolves then sent No. 31 to New Jersey, who drafted forward Bojan Bogdanovic and gave Minnesota even more cash.

And after trading for the No. 38 pick, they sold it back to Houston so the Rockets could takeChandler Parsons from Florida. Yes, more cash -- $1.5 million to be exact. One has to wonder if the Wolves were raising a slush fund to pay off soon-to-be-departed head coach Kurt Rambis.

Minnesota also got Houston's 2012 second-rounder if it lands in spots 31 to 40, which is unlikely. Finally, at No. 43, the Wolves finally used a pick, taking UCLA wing Malcolm Lee.

All of this intrigue likely filled the Wolves' coffers much more than simply selling the pick outright at the start, so bravo to Minnesota for this piece of strategy. But I'm guessing Wolves fans would have preferred a veteran or even a stash pick like Mirotic to bolstering owner Glen Taylor's bank account.

Boston and New Jersey swap spots

In a fairly straightforward switcheroo, the Celtics swapped No. 25 to New Jersey for No. 27, and got a 2014 second-rounder from the Nets for their trouble.

New Jersey landed guard Marshon Brooks, while the Celtics got Purdue's defensive aceJaJuan Johnson, a player who may very well be this year's Taj Gibson.

Second-rounders change hands
• Orlando traded two future second-rounders to Cleveland for No. 32 pick Justin Harper, who fits the Magic system like a glove with his long-range shooting and general indifference to rebounding and contact. On another team that's a liability; as long as Dwight Howard is around it won't matter much in Orlando.

• New York purchased the 45th pick from New Orleans and Golden State bought the 39th pick from Charlotte. Reportedly, the Knicks paid $750K for the 45th pick, and the Warriors paid $2 million for the 39th.

• The name of the night was Chukwudiebere Maduabum, who Denver picked after trading a future second-rounder to the Lakers for the 56th selection.

• Minnesota obtained the 57th pick from Portland after the Blazers got it from the Mavs, using it to draft an obscure forward named Tanguy Ngombo, who plays in Qatar. The interesting part? The whispers that Ngombo is as much as 26 years old ... which, if true, would make him ineligible for this draft.

pacer4ever
06-24-2011, 04:34 AM
I agree with John the Spurs made a great move because of $$$. He also said the Pacers did good in the trade and i agree. I figured that's what the article was gonna be about. The SAS organization is truly a well run organization and are very good basketball minds who made a good trade along with us tonight.

but now thinking about the deal i like it more because if we want to get a free agent next year we still can. Because George's cap hold isnt very much and will allow us to go after EJ or another big time guy and also retain George Hill. The quote below is really significant to our future cap plans in free agency next year.



they can afford to pay Hill and he'll likely want to stay since he's from Indianapolis. And since he only counts $2 million this year against their current hoard of cap space, his arrival won't cost the Pacers anything in free agency.

CooperManning
06-24-2011, 04:43 AM
Yeah, as much as I love Hill coming to Indy, it was an amazing trade for the Spurs, getting Leonard in a position of need and Bertans who they can stash in Europe for a few years. It feels like Lorbek might be more willing to come to the Spurs because of their experience with Euros but I don't know if there's any truth to that. Regardless I hope it comes out well for us in the end. I just hope we can get Hill to stay longterm without making too big of a dent in our cap room.

Sparhawk
06-24-2011, 07:04 AM
We help the Spurs get better, but not ourselves. Way to go Bird. Hill does not make this team better.

Hate this deal more and more.

Unclebuck
06-24-2011, 07:09 AM
We won't know for sure for a few years. George Hill is a sure thing. A 15th pick is anything but a sure thing, no matter if the Spurs pickd him or not

ballism
06-24-2011, 07:32 AM
We won't know for sure for a few years. George Hill is a sure thing. A 15th pick is anything but a sure thing, no matter if the Spurs pickd him or not

It's also a sure thing that Spurs wouldn't be able to extend him. Or if not him, someone else.
So whatever happens, Hollinger is right, long term, great deal for Spurs. And they also got Bertans -- who was projected in the 1st round by most and has serious potential 3+ years from now.
They really aren't losing anything, just a year of Hill who's very expendable with Gary Neal/James Anderson on the roster (if there even is next year).
For this to be a bad deal for Spurs, Leonard would have to be a bust of Joe Alexander proportions where he's out of the league in 2 years (and Bertans never make it).

As for us, it's not a sure thing. Safe choice for now, but our prime time isn't for some 3-5 years anyway, and if by that time Leonard reaches his full potential which seems to be considerable... It will be remembered as a terrible deal.

DocHolliday
06-24-2011, 07:34 AM
We help the Spurs get better, but not ourselves. Way to go Bird. Hill does not make this team better.

Hate this deal more and more.

I'd take Hill over any of those 9 rolls of the dice listed in your sig.

wintermute
06-24-2011, 08:02 AM
Good trade for the Spurs, doesn't make it a bad trade for us.

It's a good trade for the Spurs because of financial and roster reasons, but not for basketball reasons - Hill was an important part of their rotation after all, and they swapped him for 3 maybes. That's basically a rebuilding move for them.

For the Pacers, we already have a lot of good not great players, so consolidating our assets to get a known commodity that fills a need makes a lot of sense. I think Hill still has a lot of upside while being capable of contributing off the bat.

I don't get the regret about trading Leonard away. He was never our pick apparently and if we hadn't traded the #15 we might very well have gone for someone else. It's the Bayless trade all over again.

NapTonius Monk
06-24-2011, 08:06 AM
We help the Spurs get better, but not ourselves. Way to go Bird. Hill does not make this team better.

Hate this deal more and more.
How does this deal not make us better? This gives us a viable defensive ace on Rose, Rondo, Wall, Westbrook, Wade. When have we ever had a defensive presence at the pg position? And he hits open shots. This strengthens our bench and pushes our starter to get better. I can't wait to watch he and George on defense together. We're starting to get the ingredients to be a very good defensive team. Not to mention, by reading some of these posts, you'd think that George Hill was either 35 years old, or a one year wonder. I like Leonard, but we did well getting Hill. Just as long as we don't ever have to rely on AJ Price trying to guard Kyle Korver, I'll be fine. I like the deal.

Major Cold
06-24-2011, 08:13 AM
There is a reason Leonard dropped.

Slick Pinkham
06-24-2011, 08:22 AM
It was a good move financially for the Spurs, but you also have to mention why they needed to consider finances: the absolutely awful and untradeable contract of Richard Jefferson.

I think it's the rare trade that will be a good move for both teams, frankly. They really liked Kawhi Leonard, and at our draft spot the top players left were SFs who didn't fill a need for us.

Sparhawk
06-24-2011, 08:25 AM
How does this deal not make us better? This gives us a viable defensive ace on Rose, Rondo, Wall, Westbrook, Wade. When have we ever had a defensive presence at the pg position? And he hits open shots. This strengthens our bench and pushes our starter to get better. I can't wait to watch he and George on defense together. We're starting to get the ingredients to be a very good defensive team. Not to mention, by reading some of these posts, you'd think that George Hill was either 35 years old, or a one year wonder. I like Leonard, but we did well getting Hill. Just as long as we don't ever have to rely on AJ Price trying to guard Kyle Korver, I'll be fine. I like the deal.

Hill is probably good for an extra win or two. He isn't going to make us better, especially in the long run. He's a 6'2" shooting guard. He does play defense, so I like that. I do like Hill, but I'm just saying we should have gotten more. I'd have rather taken Brooks/Singleton at 15, and with the second, taken a point guard that can play defense in Darius Morris (just taken 1 spot ahead of us, so was very reachable with a trade), Charles Jenkins, Malcom Lee, or even taken a flier on Josh Selby. Sure some of those guys went before our pick, but could have easily been attainable for our second pick a little bit of cash.

I would much rather have Singleton and Darius Morris than Hill.

I'm not hating on Hill, I think he's a fine player, but this deal just stunk to me.

HC
06-24-2011, 08:30 AM
Geez...cant please everybody I guess. Good thing Hill is a hometown boy. Otherwise, given the relationship he had with Pops and the S.A. fans I would be worried he is going to go back down there after this season.

Just like there is reason Leonard fell in this draft, there are also reasons that Pops and the S.A. fans love George Hill.

Also a lot of people seem to be talking as if we are done dealing.

Sparhawk
06-24-2011, 08:33 AM
Geez...cant please everybody I guess. Good thing Hill is a hometown boy. Otherwise, given the relationship he had with Pops and the S.A. fans I would be worried he is going to go back down there after this season.

Just like there is reason Leonard fell in this draft, there are also reasons that Pops and the S.A. fans love George Hill.

Who knows why Leonard fell. Someone always falls in the draft. Brooks was skyrocketing up boards, but in the end it didn't matter, and he went 25. He was still a lottery talent for this draft and fell to us and we turned that lottery talent into Hill. I'm glad we got Hill, but damn, surely a lottery talent can get more. Right now, I just don't think Morway is a capable GM.

I'm sure I'll appreciate the deal later on, but right now, it just looks bad to me, that we got back so little.

ballism
06-24-2011, 08:34 AM
There is a reason Leonard dropped.

There is a reason Granger dropped. There is a reason why Leonard was projected as a top 5-8 prospect most of the time. There is a reason why Fredette was the most hyped prospect in this draft. There is a reason for most things. There is a reason why Spurs wanted Leonard instead of say Donatas Motiejunas and more 2nd round picks.

Anyone who says they know Leonard will fail is delirious. Spurs don't know it. How can you?

Major Cold
06-24-2011, 08:37 AM
Leonard dropped for a reason. He struggles to guard quick 3s. He is not long enough to guard lanky 4s. And not wide enough to contend with the Blairs on the boards.


I am slightly disappointed that we didn't get Bertrans. I really like his shooting.

Major Cold
06-24-2011, 08:47 AM
There is a reason Granger dropped. There is a reason why Leonard was projected as a top 5-8 prospect most of the time. There is a reason why Fredette was the most hyped prospect in this draft. There is a reason for most things. There is a reason why Spurs wanted Leonard instead of say Donatas Motiejunas and more 2nd round picks.

Anyone who says they know Leonard will fail is delirious. Spurs don't know it. How can you?


Oh I bet every GM knows why he dropped. He is not a scorer. Which we need. This guy will be a role player...much like Hill. But his role will not be scoring...which we need.

He is the 3rd worst scorer at his position in this draft alone. He is a tweener. A better Faried...which is why he dropped. He never took over in workouts. He is average athletically in this class alone. Which most players taken 1-10 were...but he can't score. He could be an Amare/Bosh stopper. But he does not have the touch that Marion has. Nor the lateral quickness.

He is potential. Something that we have in players last year. We need proven players that fit a need. Hill would have went top 12 in this draft if he played at IU/Butler/Ohio State.

So please quick making this kid out to be a proven commodity. He is risk like many in this draft.

ballism
06-24-2011, 08:59 AM
So please quick making this kid out to be a proven commodity. He is risk like many in this draft.
More like everyone in this draft with a very few exceptions.
If Biyombo drops, or Tristan Thompson drops, or most of those guys, I bet u'd find a million reasons why. Because you know what, they were all flawed and it was well recorded.

The fact is, he was one of the more highly valued guys in this draft.
Everyone gets smart after the fact. And starts declaring guys role players at most.
Yes, teams passed on him, and yes, teams reasoned about it (surprise!).
It just seems funny to me when people make it sound like we didn't give up anything or that a guy is a guaranteed future bum because he slipped. He didn't lose the upside overnight.

Was it a good deal for both teams? Maybe, we'll be sure in 4-5 years. But "there is a reason why he slipped" does not take his potential away. Draft history has tought us that many times.

Reginald
06-24-2011, 09:12 AM
We help the Spurs get better, but not ourselves. Way to go Bird. Hill does not make this team better.

Hate this deal more and more.

Give me a freaking break. Via the Mayo near-trade and his obvious affection for Jimmer, Brooks, et al prior to the draft, Larry Bird made no secret about his desire for a scorer at the 2-guard position. It was identified as a need by almost everyone on this board. We were also looking for better defense at the wing, which made "matador defenders" like Jimmer and Brooks big risks.

Bird got an NBA veteran. He got a scorer who by Spurs' fans own admission is also their best defender. And he got it without paying a cent and without trading anyone. The fact he's a local boy is just gravy.

This draft was weak by almost any standard; loaded with risks, question marks and projects. And we went out and got a proven commodity who addresses team needs. Win, win, win. All these sky-is-falling Pacers fans need to get over themselves.

mildlysane
06-24-2011, 09:15 AM
I think we both won the trade, but to clamor for the 2nd round picks is a bit much. They are all there for a reason. How young do you want us to get? Hill is a need we had going into the draft and fills that need better than anyone in the draft. How much time would Leonard get behind Granger and George? Another long term project for us. We aren't at the position to do that again. We have switched modes and are looking to win now....finally. I'm obviously good with the trade. It makes us better right now, not 3 years from now. Remember, we still have money for free agents this year and possibly next. We already have a team full of young-uns.

Reginald
06-24-2011, 09:16 AM
There is a reason Granger dropped. There is a reason why Leonard was projected as a top 5-8 prospect most of the time.

Did I miss something? Leonard dropped in the draft. Period. Where he was projected to be drafted means nothing. Granger was also projected high, but the draft is the ultimate barometer, not what happened prior to the draft.

Reginald
06-24-2011, 09:17 AM
I think we both won the trade, but to clamor for the 2nd round picks is a bit much. They are all there for a reason. How young do you want us to get? Hill is a need we had going into the draft and fills that need better than anyone in the draft. How much time would Leonard get behind Granger and George? Another long term project for us. We aren't at the position to do that again. We have switched modes and are looking to win now....finally. I'm obviously good with the trade. It makes us better right now, not 3 years from now. Remember, we still have money for free agents this year and possibly next. We already have a team full of young-uns.

This is the absolutely correct assessment of the trade.

Ownagedood
06-24-2011, 09:19 AM
How can you not see this trade as a good thing for the Pacers? You must not know much about George Hill. He has great skills as a back up PG and would be a starter on about half of the teams in the league. He can also play the 2 which right now is one of our weaknesses. Bird hit a home run with this trade, I was doing my best to be happy with the Leonard pick, i knew he was pretty good, but i just couldn't get over it, i wasn't satisfied with that pick for our team. Then we make the trade and im estatic. Hill plays GREAT defense and very good offense as well. Those of you that are complaining about the trade will soon see why Bird is in the front office and not any of us.

He's also from Indy and should bring more fans to the games. He's a really good guy and from Indy who knows how to play basketball. Great job Larry.

ballism
06-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Did I miss something? Leonard dropped in the draft. Period. Where he was projected to be drafted means nothing. Granger was also projected high, but the draft is the ultimate barometer, not what happened prior to the draft.

Yes, you clearly missed something. Re-read.
My point is that it's silly to judge a player by where he got drafted. Saying 'there's a reason why he dropped' is a weird way to evaluate talent.
Will he pan out? Who knows. Everyone outside of Irving had serious question marks. But Leonard's got talent, character and physical advantages. People are suddenly acting like they diminished in a day.

There's a reason why he dropped, but there are also plenty of reasons why the Spurs wanted him instead of other available guys.
People tend to exaggerate so much trying to prove a point that can't be proven yet. We won't know for sure if this was a good, bad, great, terrible deal for several years.

Reginald
06-24-2011, 09:44 AM
Yes, you clearly missed something. Re-read.
My point is that it's silly to judge a player by where he got drafted.

Re-read your own posts. I know what your point is. I just took issue with your linguistic sliding scale. Granger and Leonard's draft stories were identical: they were projected high and dropped on draft day. And yet you're saying, "There's a reason Granger dropped and a reason Leonard was projected so high." Leonard's projections are meaningless. He ultimately dropped, same as Granger. And as of right now, that's all we can judge him by.

Speed
06-24-2011, 09:46 AM
anyone see what grade Ford gave them?

ballism
06-24-2011, 09:46 AM
Re-read your own posts. I know what your point is. I just took issue with your linguistic sliding scale. Granger and Leonard's draft stories were identical: they were projected high and dropped on draft day. And yet you're saying, "There's a reason Granger dropped and a reason Leonard was projected so high." Leonard's projections are meaningless. He ultimately dropped, same as Granger. And as of right now, that's all we can judge him by.

It's a figure of speach. The deeply hidden meaning - you can find a reason for everything after the fact. Sorry if that was so unclear.

Ownagedood
06-24-2011, 09:57 AM
anyone see what grade Ford gave them?

Us or the Spurs?

I haven't seen the grades but i did see that we were considered "Draft winners" last night!

Sparhawk
06-24-2011, 10:01 AM
Goddammit it all. Fox sucks big time. They graded all the team and this is what they have to say about the Pacers:

15. Indiana Pacers — Kawhi Leonard, F, San Diego State: Kawhi Leonard was dealt to San Antonio for George Hill. Leonard is a Spurs type of player that should fit Gregg Popovich's system like a glove. He's got a killer motor and can do just about everything on the floor. Adding a young, tough lottery talent is huge for this team and Leonard can immediately step in and make an impact at small forward. -Seth Sommerfeld

They talked about the Spurs for our pick!

Reginald
06-24-2011, 10:05 AM
I haven't seen the grades but i did see that we were considered "Draft winners" last night!

Grades are all over the place. The general consensus seems to be we did "just fine," but one slackjaw did gave us a D-, asking what are the Pacers going to do with three point guards? It was as if he just saw George Hill for the first time and all he knew about him were the initials "PG" attached to his bio.

Say it with me, people: George Hill is a combo guard who can back up the point, score from the 2 and play lockdown defense. You have to have the intelligence of a lobotomized ape to equate his skillset straight-up with Collison's.

Psyren
06-24-2011, 10:06 AM
I think it should just be left at this...

Both teams got a good trade. We needed bench help and someone who can score and defend. We got that.

They got a guy they can groom without it hurting significantly in the short run. Also, a good Euro to groom.

Good deal for both sides. Why does there have to be just 1 winner?

ballism
06-24-2011, 10:06 AM
They talked about the Spurs for our pick!

rofl
Don't worry, it will change once we get relevant. A few competitive series, and we can steal the spotlight.

Inca Street
06-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Hollinger has to save face......didnt he have Leonard in the top 5 on his draft board?

Reginald
06-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Leonard is a Spurs type of player...and can do just about everything on the floor.

I guess "just about everything" doesn't include perimeter shooting.

bulldog
06-24-2011, 11:43 AM
We won't know for sure for a few years. George Hill is a sure thing. A 15th pick is anything but a sure thing, no matter if the Spurs pickd him or not

I agree. Here is the list of 15th overall picks from recent history. George Hill is clearly better than most of these guys, and remember this is a weaker draft:

2010 Larry Sanders VCU Milwaukee
2009 Austin Daye Gonzaga Detroit
2008 Robin Lopez Stanford Phoenix
2007 Rodney Stuckey Eastern Wash Detroit
2006 Cedric Simmons NC State New Orleans
2005 Antoine Wright A&M Jr. New Jersey
2004 Al Jefferson MS HSSr. Boston
2003 Reece Gaines Louisville Sr. Orlando
2002 Bostjan Nachbar Slovenia 1980 Houston
2001 Steven Hunter DePaul So. Orlando
2000 Jason Collier Georgia St. Sr. Milwaukee

People overvalue draft picks. A sure thing >>>>>>> draft pick potential

pacer4ever
06-24-2011, 11:46 AM
Us or the Spurs?

I haven't seen the grades but i did see that we were considered "Draft winners" last night!

Ford was on Mike and Mike and said that was his favorite trade of the night because it was a great trade for both teams.

pacer4ever
06-24-2011, 11:49 AM
There is a reason Granger dropped. There is a reason why Leonard was projected as a top 5-8 prospect most of the time. There is a reason why Fredette was the most hyped prospect in this draft. There is a reason for most things. There is a reason why Spurs wanted Leonard instead of say Donatas Motiejunas and more 2nd round picks.

Anyone who says they know Leonard will fail is delirious. Spurs don't know it. How can you?

Like Fran Fracelia said at the combine you cant take Leonard top 10. He is only gonna be a role player. So i understand why he fell. If I am a team like Washington do I take Leonard with #6 a role player potential? or Jan Vesley with great starter potential? that is easy for me. I take high risk high reward type player.

Leonard will not fail he is one of the safest picks in the draft IMO. So a team like the Spurs could use him.


Bertans will be a steal in a few years that kid has serious talent just needs a NBA body.

crazylikeafox
06-24-2011, 12:37 PM
How can you not see this trade as a good thing for the Pacers? You must not know much about George Hill. He has great skills as a back up PG and would be a starter on about half of the teams in the league. He can also play the 2 which right now is one of our weaknesses. Bird hit a home run with this trade, I was doing my best to be happy with the Leonard pick, i knew he was pretty good, but i just couldn't get over it, i wasn't satisfied with that pick for our team. Then we make the trade and im estatic. Hill plays GREAT defense and very good offense as well. Those of you that are complaining about the trade will soon see why Bird is in the front office and not any of us.

He's also from Indy and should bring more fans to the games. He's a really good guy and from Indy who knows how to play basketball. Great job Larry.

I am happy we got Hill, he will make us a bit deeper and bit better and it is nice that he is a hometown kid, but reallly how many butts is he going to add to the seats, 10, 20, 50 per game? Are people really going to say to themselves "I think I will go check out the Pacers tonight, they do have that hometown kid Hill playing for them now"? We had Josh being a hometown kid as well, did he really make that big of an impact on the attendance?

Reginald
06-24-2011, 12:40 PM
We had Josh being a hometown kid as well, did he really make that big of an impact on the attendance?

Josh has never been more than a role player, and a Carmel/Duke kid has about as much Hoosier hometown appeal as the Queen of England.

Trophy
06-24-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm happy with what we got this deal a lot.

I would've liked to have gotten both Leonard and Hill, but Leonard isn't going to be much and we really don't need another rotation wing player.

We got what we needed and the Spurs could use some depth at SF so they got what they needed. It worked out well.

Major Cold
06-24-2011, 01:29 PM
More like everyone in this draft with a very few exceptions.
If Biyombo drops, or Tristan Thompson drops, or most of those guys, I bet u'd find a million reasons why. Because you know what, they were all flawed and it was well recorded.

The fact is, he was one of the more highly valued guys in this draft.
Everyone gets smart after the fact. And starts declaring guys role players at most.
Yes, teams passed on him, and yes, teams reasoned about it (surprise!).
It just seems funny to me when people make it sound like we didn't give up anything or that a guy is a guaranteed future bum because he slipped. He didn't lose the upside overnight.

Was it a good deal for both teams? Maybe, we'll be sure in 4-5 years. But "there is a reason why he slipped" does not take his potential away. Draft history has tought us that many times.


Nobody on PD, prior to last night, was talking about Leonard. No one was saying trade up to get him. No one was saying he was a sure fire. He may not be a bum or a Bayless. But I am certain he will not contribute to THIS team, in an area THIS team needs, in the time frame THIS team has. Hill will.

ballism
06-25-2011, 10:12 AM
Nobody on PD, prior to last night, was talking about Leonard. No one was saying trade up to get him. No one was saying he was a sure fire. He may not be a bum or a Bayless. But I am certain he will not contribute to THIS team, in an area THIS team needs, in the time frame THIS team has. Hill will.

He's a talented asset, and the time frame is not next year.

IndyHoya
06-25-2011, 10:15 AM
Bertans will be a steal in a few years that kid has serious talent just needs a NBA body.

He sure looked awesome in those highlight reels. Reminded me of Nowitzky

mildlysane
06-25-2011, 10:22 AM
He sure looked awesome in those highlight reels. Reminded me of Nowitzky
Just about every prospect that has a youtube highlight video looks awesome. That is why they are called highlight videos. I would like to see the counterpart...the knuckleheaded plays video.

d_c
06-25-2011, 10:24 AM
Like Fran Fracelia said at the combine you cant take Leonard top 10. He is only gonna be a role player. So i understand why he fell. If I am a team like Washington do I take Leonard with #6 a role player potential? or Jan Vesley with great starter potential? that is easy for me. I take high risk high reward type player.

Leonard will not fail he is one of the safest picks in the draft IMO. So a team like the Spurs could use him

I'm not one to typically over analyze drafts and draft picks, but Leonard is pretty much a role/bench player. I mean, I guess that's what Hill has mostly been in his career and will be with the Pacers, so no biggie either way, as long as both guys are rotations players who can contribute (which Hill has proven he can do).

Leonard is 6'6" (yeah, I look at heights w/o shoes, as anyone can put on a pair of 2.5" loafers) and played PF in college. He can't start at either forward position in the pros. Not big enough for PF and not skilled enough for SF.

Yeah, you could start him at SF so that you don't go undersized, but he's going to hurt you at the offensive end if you do that. Your team become a lot easier to defend. He looks like an energy guy with long arms. He'll make hustle plays. He's a good athlete, but hardly a great one by NBA standards.

I suppose on the high end he turns into some kind of Marion/Gerald Wallace type, but both those guys are more athletic with more offensive skill and just more well rounded games. I don't see that happening. Without overanalyzing things, guys who are 6'6" PF/tweener forwards in college usually end up being bench players in the NBA. That's the gist of it from what I see.

The fact that a guy like this was even considered a Top 10 pick at any point illustrates how bad this draft was, though ultimately, I think he was picked closer to where he should've been.

Asteezy
06-25-2011, 11:23 AM
Classic case of a fan base immediately becoming attached to a draft pick, and thus being annoyed when he is traded before we see what he's got! (Leonard isn't a guy I consider to have a high ceiling either).

But if we take a step back and look at what we got in George Hill you have to believe its going to make us better than last year. He will single handidly give us far superior backup play at the 1-2.

Agree with the general consensus that its a Win/Win deal for both teams! now jus got to go get a 4/5 and I believe were a 5/6 seed next season.

Pacergeek
06-25-2011, 12:26 PM
how can the Spurs always be "one step ahead" when they have a lot of money invested into Richard "I owe my entire career to playing with Jason Kidd" Jefferson.

wintermute
06-25-2011, 01:36 PM
how can the Spurs always be "one step ahead" when they have a lot of money invested into Richard "I owe my entire career to playing with Jason Kidd" Jefferson.

The Spurs rarely make mistakes, but that trade for Jefferson (and his subsequent extension) was a terrible, terrible move. If Kahn had done that deal, the media would be killing him at every turn.

In fact, you could argue that the Jefferson mistake directly led to the Hill trade. Jefferson's contract meant that they couldn't pay Hill, and Jefferson's lack of defense meant that they needed a rugged SF to replace him.

So while the Spurs have a deservedly good reputation, they do make mistakes too. It certainly doesn't mean that every Spurs trade partner automatically "loses" the trade. Reminds me of the Bayless trade, when everyone assumed that Indiana was on the losing end just because we were trading with Pritchard. Guess what, that trade didn't end up helping Portland much, and overall I think the Pacers benefited more.

LA_Confidential
06-26-2011, 10:00 PM
I havent chimed in much on the Hill trade but I will say that gettin him is definately a win. I dont know very much about him but he is someone ive heard of, meaning he's been productive and not just a flash in the pan.
The best part about it is that we added something weve lacked without giving up anyone on the Pacers Playoff team. So anyone who thinks that the Pacers didnt get better on draft night is delusional.

pacer4ever
06-26-2011, 10:06 PM
The Spurs rarely make mistakes, but that trade for Jefferson (and his subsequent extension) was a terrible, terrible move. If Kahn had done that deal, the media would be killing him at every turn.

In fact, you could argue that the Jefferson mistake directly led to the Hill trade. Jefferson's contract meant that they couldn't pay Hill, and Jefferson's lack of defense meant that they needed a rugged SF to replace him.

So while the Spurs have a deservedly good reputation, they do make mistakes too. It certainly doesn't mean that every Spurs trade partner automatically "loses" the trade. Reminds me of the Bayless trade, when everyone assumed that Indiana was on the losing end just because we were trading with Pritchard. Guess what, that trade didn't end up helping Portland much, and overall I think the Pacers benefited more.

The Spurs admitted their mistake by trading up to get Leonard. But like the gm who teaches my class says evey1 makes mistakes on players. But you cant make very many and the Spurs dont.

neosmndrew
06-27-2011, 01:04 AM
Leonard dropped because he can't score. Duncan's numbers last year were six points off his career average, and they are more likely to get lower than get higher. Ginobli is only good if he's healthy. He played almost every game last year, but based on his age (34 @ start of next season), I think that was an aberration more than anything. Jefferson has all but proven that he can't flourish in the Spurs' system with very subpar offensive numbers.'


My point- Where is SA's offense going to come from? They have some role players that can hit situational threes on their bench, but thats about it. Tony Parker is really they're only option, with George Hill bailing him out when he's injured/exhausted. But not anymore.

I don't see how this is a good trade. Less offense for an offensively starved team. SA has good defense, but it has been better in years past. And their offense looks like its gonna taper off A LOT this year.

Pacers on the other hand pick up probably the youngest "veteran" in the league right now who can contribute right away with the ability to score and defend bigger guards. And again, all it cost them was a player who just wouldn't fit on the team, and a second round player in a draft that is continuously being called on of the worst in years.



I think the Pacers won.

trailrunner
06-27-2011, 01:46 AM
If before this draft you were told that the player we drafted at #15 would be a quality citizen, have the skills to start from day one, and over the course of the season average 12 -16 PPG (depending on minutes), have a 2-1 assist to TO ratio, shoot 45% from the field and 86% from the line, play tough defense, and pull down 2.6 RPG, would you have been happy? I think I would have felt fine with that type of production from our pick in this draft. That is what we got and we still have everyone else as well. If we land a solid PF to rotate with Tyler we will be a much better squad next season and still have cap space to get the final piece to the puzzle. If Gordon does not sign an extension and LA makes him a qualifying offer for 2012-2013, he will be a Pacer in 2 years. Gordon holds the key to his final destination. By then our young players will be seasoned with playoff experience. I believe he will be the final piece.

Midcoasted
06-27-2011, 03:58 AM
That Bulls fan in the comments on the bleacher report article would really have my blood boiling if I didn't realize he is just a dumb troll. He's higher on Hibbert than probably 90 percent of this forum, but everything else he is way off base about. The reason why I dislike the Bulls fans is because they think just because they have Rose nowadays they are going to own us still like Jordan used to. I can't wait until that first regular season game against them. It should defenitely be a playoff atmosphere if it's at home, and if not the first one at home should be. The disgusting Bulls fans will probably make the trip though.

Read his comments and you will see. He calls Hansbrough Foster and McRoberts scrubs who take cheap shots. I really hope we keep that trio together. Just because they are white and not the best players in the world doesn't mean they are scrubs. I look forward to the progression of all of our big men, and I would think Foster will give us what he did last year. This group is still growing and getting better. Sure add in a wilcard trade/free agent guy to solidify our frontcourt and that is all we really need. We added the perimeter guy, now all we have to do is add a young interior guy the same way and save our money for the future.

I laugh at this hard cap of 45 million. What is Miami going to have a two man team? I see 62 million as a more realistic figure. Hard cap for sure though.

pacer4ever
06-28-2011, 07:01 AM
That Bulls fan in the comments on the bleacher report article would really have my blood boiling if I didn't realize he is just a dumb troll. He's higher on Hibbert than probably 90 percent of this forum, but everything else he is way off base about. The reason why I dislike the Bulls fans is because they think just because they have Rose nowadays they are going to own us still like Jordan used to. I can't wait until that first regular season game against them. It should defenitely be a playoff atmosphere if it's at home, and if not the first one at home should be. The disgusting Bulls fans will probably make the trip though.

Read his comments and you will see. He calls Hansbrough Foster and McRoberts scrubs who take cheap shots. I really hope we keep that trio together. Just because they are white and not the best players in the world doesn't mean they are scrubs. I look forward to the progression of all of our big men, and I would think Foster will give us what he did last year. This group is still growing and getting better. Sure add in a wilcard trade/free agent guy to solidify our frontcourt and that is all we really need. We added the perimeter guy, now all we have to do is add a young interior guy the same way and save our money for the future.

I laugh at this hard cap of 45 million. What is Miami going to have a two man team? I see 62 million as a more realistic figure. Hard cap for sure though.

Well that is probably what is gonna happen

About the hard cap a realistic # the players would accept IMO is 70m-75m because the players are so opposed to the hard cap.

pacer4ever
06-28-2011, 07:07 AM
He sure looked awesome in those highlight reels. Reminded me of Nowitzky

lol i went home after seeing those highlights and watch some real game film on him lol. He really is gonna be special if he ever comes over 6'11 SF decent athlete sniper of a 3pt shooter(best in the draft IMO better than even andrew goudelock IMO). reminds me of Rashard Lewis at the same age who couldn't get on the court his first few seasons in Seattle. Because Rashard was a tooth pick(Bertans looks like he is 200 pounds lol). I had Him in one of my mocks going #26 to Dallas.

EDI+ I will say though there is a good chance he never pans out. But he has the tools to be a solid rotation player in the NBA if his body fills out.

Merz
06-28-2011, 07:25 AM
No one should really care how Bertans turns out as the Pacers probably would not have picked him if this trade didn't happen.

They probably would of chosen someone like Jenkins, Lee, Selby, or Benson. Since we'll never know who they would've chosen you have to look at it as just a 2nd round pick being dealt and not Bertans.

pacer4ever
06-28-2011, 07:38 AM
No one should really care how Bertans turns out as the Pacers probably would not have picked him if this trade didn't happen.

They probably would of chosen someone like Jenkins, Lee, Selby, or Benson. Since we'll never know who they would've chosen you have to look at it as just a 2nd round pick being dealt and not Bertans.

ya i realize that he wasnt gonna be a Pacer. I just like to follow the Euros that i have seen play regardless of who they got drafted by or play for in the NBA. Bertans may not be ready for another 5 years but you can see the potential watching him now and i had him rated in the late 20s. I really like guys like Nikola Mirotic who i get to see play a lot. He will be a pretty good player and i am pissed the Bulls drafted him. He will be coming over when Boozer's contract is up most likley. The Euro i wanted no part of was Donatas Motiejunas he had the worst motor in the draft IMO. Greg Smith of Fresno was in the running for that also his motor is terrible. I have been watching him the past few days just in case the Pacers get him as a undrafted free agent or training camp invite.

ballism
06-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Well Pacers never shied away (spelling?) from 2nd round Euros or from taking sliding guys in the 2nd, so who knows. Bertans was widely projected as a late 1st pick by most reports, so at 42 he had to look enticing to most teams, not just Spurs.

Since86
06-28-2011, 10:31 AM
Leonard is 6'6" (yeah, I look at heights w/o shoes, as anyone can put on a pair of 2.5" loafers) and played PF in college. He can't start at either forward position in the pros. Not big enough for PF and not skilled enough for SF.

Yeah, you could start him at SF so that you don't go undersized, but he's going to hurt you at the offensive end if you do that. Your team become a lot easier to defend. He looks like an energy guy with long arms. He'll make hustle plays. He's a good athlete, but hardly a great one by NBA standards.

He might have been the listed PF, but he didn't play that position in a traditional way. Using their college position to try and project what position they play in the pros isn't a good tactic.


He's going to hurt you on the offensive end regardless of what position he plays.

graphic-er
06-28-2011, 10:33 AM
I think the spurs actually lose this one and in a big way. They had to give a fixture of their team due to money. I actually don't think RJ's contract is the problem here going forward, they restructured his deal last year did they not?

The real albatross is now Tim Duncan who this past year and this coming year at over 20 million is grossly overpaid. Spurs messed up by giving him such a back loaded deal. Spurs lost George Hill because of Tim Duncan. If Duncan was committed to winning, he would have restructured his deal last year too. Its not like he is going to ever play for another team. He should have restructured that contract to 12 million a year for 3 years which would put him at 38 years old when he potentially retires. Heck they will probably end up over paying him when they sign him to his last contract next year.

Tony Parker was pretty much spot on.

ballism
06-28-2011, 11:01 AM
I think the spurs actually lose this one and in a big way. They had to give a fixture of their team due to money. I actually don't think RJ's contract is the problem here going forward, they restructured his deal last year did they not?

The real albatross is now Tim Duncan who this past year and this coming year at over 20 million is grossly overpaid. Spurs messed up by giving him such a back loaded deal. Spurs lost George Hill because of Tim Duncan. If Duncan was committed to winning, he would have restructured his deal last year too. Its not like he is going to ever play for another team. He should have restructured that contract to 12 million a year for 3 years which would put him at 38 years old when he potentially retires. Heck they will probably end up over paying him when they sign him to his last contract next year.

Tony Parker was pretty much spot on.

That's not a good option. Renegotiation sucks when the player is the age of Duncan.
I won't check when he signed that contract, but if that sort of renegotiation is possible (the contract must be 3 years or more) then it would put the contract under 'Over-36' rule.
Which means Spurs would get charged more than 12 mil on their cap anyway, even if the real salary is 12 mil.
It's better to just pay 20 mil+ for this one year.

Anyway, I doubt they worry much about his salary this year. It's an expiring. So why would they give away Hill (who's cheap this year)?
Again, to me this was mainly about basketball fit. They wanted a Corey Brewer type defensive wing, and they had 3 backup combo guards on the roster. They just didn't see enough basketball sense to resign Hill. So they chose to use the money on Leonard and a good 2012 free agent instead.

Dgreenwell3
06-28-2011, 11:39 AM
I normally don't rant, but I gave that idiot author a good piece of my mind on there. Feel much better now. Here's the transcript.

Isn't it amazing that when people from these websites want to get into a discussion and insult the intelligence of the other persons intelligence it regularly because Theirs is smaller
Edit: I was Talking about the guy who wouldn't defend his position on bleacher report and instead constantly spoke about how indianas average reading age is 4th grade