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View Full Version : Jeff Goodman of CBS Sports on Dan Dakich Show blasted Jimmer



Reginald
06-23-2011, 01:52 PM
Called him the worst defender he's seen in the draft in the last 10 years. Also added that if Florida's 6-2 Kenny Boyton could shut Jimmer's offensive game down, that any average NBA defender should be able to relegate him to little more than an off-the-bench role player.

100% agree.

BPump33
06-23-2011, 01:53 PM
Called him the worst defender he's seen in the draft in the last 10 years. Also added that if Florida's 6-2 Kenny Boyton could shut Jimmer's offensive game down, that any average NBA defender should be able to relegate him to little more than an off-the-bench role player.

100% agree.

Marc Spears was talking earlier on Dakich how Kawhi Leonard couldn't even shut Jimmer down.

Kstat
06-23-2011, 01:53 PM
He is right on. If Florida could shut down Jimmer by throwing double and triple teams at him with only rec league players to pass to, how could he ever hope to succeed in the NBA....

Very informative that Kenny Boyton was the primary defender on Jimmer. It was hard to tell which of the four gators within 3 inches of him for most of the game was supposed to be guarding him.

Kegboy
06-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Called him the worst defender he's seen in the draft in the last 10 years.

Okay, that's just ridiculous. Yes, he's a poor defender, perhaps even a very poor defender, but he's no Tskitishvili.

Since86
06-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Jeff Goodman doesn't have access to workouts, so he has to base his opinion on game film. When I watch Jimmer on the defensive end, during games at BYU, I saw a player who didn't care to play defense. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't.

And Kenny Boyton didn't slow Jimmer down. Jimmer's calf injury slowed Jimmer down.

But going back to the defensive thing, I've read many reports about how teams were surprised at Jimmer's ability to play defense. Said he wasn't a lockdown defender by any means, just that he was a lot more capable and willing than they thought after watching his film, which is why he's stayed at the top of the draft and not slipped.

Kstat
06-23-2011, 01:56 PM
Outside of Michael Jordan, what guard asked to take 30+ shots a game every night has ever been physically capable of working hard on defense?

Gamble1
06-23-2011, 02:04 PM
Jeff Goodman doesn't have access to workouts, so he has to base his opinion on game film. When I watch Jimmer on the defensive end, during games at BYU, I saw a player who didn't care to play defense. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't.

And Kenny Boyton didn't slow Jimmer down. Jimmer's calf injury slowed Jimmer down.

But going back to the defensive thing, I've read many reports about how teams were surprised at Jimmer's ability to play defense. Said he wasn't a lockdown defender by any means, just that he was a lot more capable and willing than they thought after watching his film, which is why he's stayed at the top of the draft and not slipped.
Its those details that you keep bringing up that makes me appreciate your post more and more. I can't stand people who make assumptions off of one game.

Swish
06-23-2011, 02:34 PM
I can't believe that a kid as quick as Jimmer can't play D. Like has been said, maybe he DOESN'T, but that doesn't mean he CAN'T. It's up to him and the coaches to get him to play D, and as KStat eluded to, if he's not needed to take every shot down the floor, maybe he would have the energy to play D.

Swish
06-23-2011, 02:36 PM
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Dakich told this guy to say that just to **** his listeners off. Don't get the appeal of that guy.

A.B.Hollywood
06-23-2011, 02:38 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jimmer and I too think his defense is lacking. But this is just the hyperbole machine at its finest. This statement is rather ridiculous

Reginald
06-23-2011, 02:41 PM
Just because you don't [play defense], doesn't mean you can't.

That's like saying, just because Dale Davis doesn't shoot free throws well, doesn't mean he can't. "The worst defender in the last 10 years of the NBA draft" is obviously hyperbole, but I'll stick with the four years of empirical evidence that at the very least suggest Jimmer isn't a very good defender.

Kstat
06-23-2011, 02:42 PM
Nobody's saying Jimmer is a very good defender. Defense isn't his strong suit, which goes for about %80 of NBA point guards.

thatch3232
06-23-2011, 02:47 PM
Hatas gon' hate.

Jimmer is a gifted scorer, and would much improve scoring off the bench and overall bench talent, like Larry Bird has wanted. I have no problems with him.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 02:51 PM
Anyone who ridicules Jimmer's offense based on the Florida game is an idiot. It will be much more difficult to stop him one on one in the Pro's because of the pace of the game. Florida threw double/triple teams on him that he will NEVER see in the NBA because he will never be more than the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. In other words, he will be one of multiple options not THE option. I have not heard anyone say he will go to a team and be THE man.

Since86
06-23-2011, 02:52 PM
That's like saying, just because Dale Davis doesn't shoot free throws well, doesn't mean he can't. "The worst defender in the last 10 years of the NBA draft" is obviously hyperbole, but I'll stick with the four years of empirical evidence that at the very least suggest Jimmer isn't a very good defender.

No it's not. Defense has a lot more to do with effort than it does ability, especially at the NBA level.

Shaq can't shoot FTs, not because he doesn't put in the effort (he hired his own personal FT shooting coach out of his own pocket) but because there are phyiscal limitations, like hand size for example.

I'm not saying that every NBA player as the ability to become 1st Team All Defense, they don't. I'm saying any NBA player that pays attention to defense will become a workable piece.

Mike Dunleavy can't guard his shadow, but he puts forth the effort and uses his brain to be an effective team defender without much individual ability.

EDIT: And that's not even touching on the fact that Jimmer is a very good athlete, even for NBA standards. He's not going to win any foot races, or jumping contests, but he'll be right in the middle of the pack.

EDIT2: And if you watched 4 years of Jimmer, you'd alteast understand that most of the time (when the ball wasn't in his area) that he stood on the elbow and merely turned so he could see the ball. He hardly put any effort in, and you could see that just by the lack of a defensive stance and the lack of even trying to guard someone.

They played a 2-3 zone so they could save his legs and ride him offensively, because that was their only hope.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 02:53 PM
That's like saying, just because Dale Davis doesn't shoot free throws well, doesn't mean he can't. "The worst defender in the last 10 years of the NBA draft" is obviously hyperbole, but I'll stick with the four years of empirical evidence that at the very least suggest Jimmer isn't a very good defender.

There is only one problem I have with that statement. No matter how hard DD worked, he couldnt hit ft's. Anyone in the NBA can play decent defense if they want too. It is a matter of effort. These are some of the greatest athletes in the world. They can do it. They just dont want too. I dont see effort as being a problem with Jimmer.

Dr. Awesome
06-23-2011, 02:54 PM
Outside of Michael Jordan, what guard asked to take 30+ shots a game every night has ever been physically capable of working hard on defense?

Iverson and Curry come to mind...I just think it's funny that certain guys seem to get a hall pass for being a bad defender. If you don't try on defense you don't have a place on my team. If you aren't as good on defense but you give it your all on every possession, then you only have a spot on my team if the other 14 players are good defenders.

Kstat
06-23-2011, 02:56 PM
If your job is to take 30 shots a game, then the other 14 guys on the team had better be good defenders, because they arent on the team because of their ability to put the ball in the basket.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:03 PM
Iverson and Curry come to mind...I just think it's funny that certain guys seem to get a hall pass for being a bad defender. If you don't try on defense you don't have a place on my team. If you aren't as good on defense but you give it your all on every possession, then you only have a spot on my team if the other 14 players are good defenders.

Even Jordan got a pass. He was not even close to a lock down defender. He played the passing lanes and helped out a lot though. But his guy routinely scored more than their average every night. Reggie had some of his better games against Jordan because he wouldnt chase him around.
I am not sure you could even add Iverson and Curry to that list either. The only guy I can think of was Ron Artest. He played hard on both sides. Kobe does too. But you are right that some get a pass and others dont when there really isnt that much difference in ability. Some just do while others wont.

Kstat
06-23-2011, 03:06 PM
Even Jordan got a pass. He was not even close to a lock down defender.

Wait...what?

-9-time NBA all-defensive 1st team selection
-1988 defensive player of the year
-only player in NBA history with 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same season...twice.

Reginald
06-23-2011, 03:12 PM
Even Jordan got a pass. He was not even close to a lock down defender.

This thread just jumped the shark.

Pacers24Colts12
06-23-2011, 03:20 PM
Even Jordan got a pass. He was not even close to a lock down defender. He played the passing lanes and helped out a lot though. But his guy routinely scored more than their average every night. Reggie had some of his better games against Jordan because he wouldnt chase him around.
I am not sure you could even add Iverson and Curry to that list either. The only guy I can think of was Ron Artest. He played hard on both sides. Kobe does too. But you are right that some get a pass and others dont when there really isnt that much difference in ability. Some just do while others wont.

You have got to be kidding me!

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:22 PM
Wait...what?

-9-time NBA all-defensive 1st team selection
-1988 defensive player of the year
-only player in NBA history with 200 steals and 100 blocks in the same season...twice.

And he did none of that against his own man. I said he played the passing lanes and helped out. The topic was lock down defender. Jordan was not even close to that. His guy always score more than his average against him because Jordan was never in front of him.

Kstat
06-23-2011, 03:24 PM
Really? None of his 200+ steals and 100+ blocks came against his own man? Is he Ben Wallace now?


The topic was lock down defender. Jordan was not even close to that. His guy always score more than his average against him because Jordan was never in front of him.

Untrue. There isn't even any other way to describe that statement. It's just totally and hopelessly untrue.

Reginald
06-23-2011, 03:26 PM
Anyone in the NBA can play decent defense if they want too. It is a matter of effort. These are some of the greatest athletes in the world. They can do it. They just don't want too.

Are we really going to keep beating this drum? So, in your mind, offense is about skillset and defense is about willpower? Defense is not a skillset, but rather just a side effect of effort? Come on now. That's just plain old rhetorical laziness. Defense is no different than offense; there are certain fundamentals that some people excel at and some people don't: rebounding, lateral quickness, playing the man instead of the pass, anticipation versus reaction, etc.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:27 PM
Really? None of his 200+ steals and 100+ blocks came against his own man? Is he Ben Wallace now?

Reggie loved playing against him because he was guarateed to have a good offensive night because Jordan couldnt guard him. Joe Dumars guarded people. Jordan waited for someone elses man to make a mistake and capitalize. Their is a difference between being good at guarding your man and playing help defense!

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:30 PM
Are we really going to keep beating this drum? So, in your mind, offense is about skillset and defense is about willpower? Defense is not a skillset, but rather just a side effect of effort? Come on now. That's just plain old rhetorical laziness. Defense is no different than offense; there are certain fundamentals that some people excel at and some people don't: rebounding, lateral quickness, playing the man instead of the pass, anticipation versus reaction, etc.

Then why dont lock down defenders go #1 then? Its not as much about talent as it is will. All NBA players have the athletic ability to play some sort of defense. Some no matter how hard they try cannot play good offense - Dale Davis, Ben Wallace, Mutumbo etc..

pacer4ever
06-23-2011, 03:30 PM
Really? None of his 200+ steals and 100+ blocks came against his own man? Is he Ben Wallace now?



Untrue. There isn't even any other way to describe that statement. It's just totally and hopelessly untrue.

Rick Barry rated MJ a B- in his scouting book

Cactus Jax
06-23-2011, 03:33 PM
Rick Barry is also kind of a douche, and that's putting it kindly.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:33 PM
Rick Barry rated MJ a B- in his scouting book

That' because RB understood the difference between being a lock down defender and playing defense in a team system. Jordan excelled in the later but stunk as a lock down. You cannot be a lock down defender when you let your guy score more than he averages every single night. That' like saying a guy who shoots the worst percentage at the FT line is a better FT shooter than a guy who shoots a higher percentage.

And RB doesnt work for ESPN and is not contractually obligated to make stupid statements that Jordan was no doubt the best player in NBA history.

Since86
06-23-2011, 03:39 PM
Are we really going to keep beating this drum? So, in your mind, offense is about skillset and defense is about willpower? Defense is not a skillset, but rather just a side effect of effort? Come on now. That's just plain old rhetorical laziness. Defense is no different than offense; there are certain fundamentals that some people excel at and some people don't: rebounding, lateral quickness, playing the man instead of the pass, anticipation versus reaction, etc.

Yeah, you're right. Jimmer is going to simply stand around and watch the defensive play happen behind him at the NBA level too.

Discussion over.

EDIT: This is pointless. Jimmer didn't even TRY to play defense. If a player refused to shoot the ball, would you say he's a good shooter or a bad one? Neither, you'd say you don't know because you haven't seen them shoot.

It's the same freaking principle when talking about Jimmer. No one really knows how good of a defender, or how bad of one, he is because he didn't even attempt to play any.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:40 PM
Yeah, you're right. Jimmer is going to simply stand around and watch the defensive play happen behind him at the NBA level too.

Discussion over.

Now, That is Funny! Good one!
Jimmer will not be a lock down defender, but he could play defense in a team concept like I have mentioned certain other players did in the past.

Reginald
06-23-2011, 03:44 PM
Then why don't lock down defenders go #1 then?

Don't know. Don't care. It's immaterial to the debate. Saying something like, "Just because you don't play defense, doesn't mean you can't" is a total cop out. You're trying to repudiate four years of actual on-the-court evidence with basically, "Because I said so."

You can't just make stuff up and pawn it off as proof. The evidence we have available to us strongly suggests Jimmer is not a good defender. Period.

Since86
06-23-2011, 03:48 PM
Except the fact that multiple teams have been reported as saying he's not as bad as a defender as they originally thought.

But yeah, just making it up.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 03:48 PM
Don't know. Don't care. It's immaterial to the debate. Saying something like, "Just because you don't play defense, doesn't mean you can't" is a total cop out. You're trying to repudiate four years of actual on-the-court evidence with basically, "Because I said so."

You can't just make stuff up and pawn it off as proof. The evidence we have available to us strongly suggests Jimmer is not a good defender. Period.

Just because you say there is evidence does not mean it exists. Any NBA athlete can play defense if he wants too. Larry Bird did and was not that fast. Steve Kerr, Steve Nash, and others played it without the physical attributes Jimmer has. He was not asked to do it in college. He has proven in the workouts he can play D.

ECKrueger
06-23-2011, 03:50 PM
I love how we are arguing over whether Jimmer is going to be a terrible defender or just a bad one.

graphic-er
06-23-2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, you're right. Jimmer is going to simply stand around and watch the defensive play happen behind him at the NBA level too.

Discussion over.

EDIT: This is pointless. Jimmer didn't even TRY to play defense. If a player refused to shoot the ball, would you say he's a good shooter or a bad one? Neither, you'd say you don't know because you haven't seen them shoot.

It's the same freaking principle when talking about Jimmer. No one really knows how good of a defender, or how bad of one, he is because he didn't even attempt to play any.

This jumps out to me, as just being alittle wonky of an argument. I get his team required him to shoot it 30 times a game, and i get that that tires you out on the defensive end, but good players play to their strengths regardless. I mean its just natural, a player would never just accept the situation and say well I'm not going to try and play defense even though I can. I mean if a player can defend, then you generally dont' have to ask them to do it, it just comes naturally.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 04:23 PM
I love how we are arguing over whether Jimmer is going to be a terrible defender or just a bad one.

Really! Nobody ever suggested he will be a good one. Just adequate at best.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 04:26 PM
Yeah, you're right. Jimmer is going to simply stand around and watch the defensive play happen behind him at the NBA level too.

Discussion over.

EDIT: This is pointless. Jimmer didn't even TRY to play defense. If a player refused to shoot the ball, would you say he's a good shooter or a bad one? Neither, you'd say you don't know because you haven't seen them shoot.

It's the same freaking principle when talking about Jimmer. No one really knows how good of a defender, or how bad of one, he is because he didn't even attempt to play any.

Wrong on 1 minor point: Teams drafting him will know if he is capable of playing D because of the workouts. He was asked to do it there. From what I have heard he showed he was capable but that is only rumor. Bird and the other GM's know what they are drafting = talent wise!

Rogco
06-23-2011, 04:30 PM
Marc Spears was talking earlier on Dakich how Kawhi Leonard couldn't even shut Jimmer down.

I'm pretty sure Marc also said that Marshon Brooks' defense was worse than Jimmers

Since86
06-23-2011, 04:34 PM
This jumps out to me, as just being alittle wonky of an argument. I get his team required him to shoot it 30 times a game, and i get that that tires you out on the defensive end, but good players play to their strengths regardless. I mean its just natural, a player would never just accept the situation and say well I'm not going to try and play defense even though I can. I mean if a player can defend, then you generally dont' have to ask them to do it, it just comes naturally.

You can disagree with something, and still recognize that it's a valid statement.

Personally, I have a problem with a player that wouldn't play defense either. But BYU designed an entire defensive "system" that allowed Jimmer to not put forth much effort, if any, on defense.

They played a 2-3 zone, and one of the main reasons was to give Jimmer a break.

The guy averaged 36mins per game out of 40. If the game was close, he wouldn't sit. They had to have him in the game, because there wasn't a single player other than him that could deliever any type of offense, whatsoever.

Reginald
06-23-2011, 04:39 PM
Just because you say there is evidence does not mean it exists.

Yeah, I'm making it up. The four years of Jimmer struggling defensively with pick-and-rolls, getting over screens and keeping people in front of him just didn't happen. And does actual data count as evidence? Jimmer Fredette's Career Averages at BYU were 2.65 rebounds per game, 1.2 steals per game, and a stellar 0.075 blocks per game. Uh, hold me back?


Any NBA athlete can play defense if he wants too.

And now we're back to, "Because I said so."


He has proven in the workouts he can play D.

In a handful of non-gamespeed practice situations, Jimmer has shown himself to be marginally quicker and athletic than the scouts expected him to be. If workouts were the be-all/end-all of talent evaluation, Marshon Brooks would be the #1 pick.

MagicRat
06-23-2011, 06:08 PM
Jordan and Miller Career PPG:
Jordan - 30.1
Miller - 18.2

Jordan vs Miller PPG head-to-head:
Jordan - 29.5
Miller - 19.5

Conclusion: Reggie simultaneously lit up and shut down Jordan.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 07:04 PM
Yeah, I'm making it up. The four years of Jimmer struggling defensively with pick-and-rolls, getting over screens and keeping people in front of him just didn't happen. And does actual data count as evidence? Jimmer Fredette's Career Averages at BYU were 2.65 rebounds per game, 1.2 steals per game, and a stellar 0.075 blocks per game. Uh, hold me back?



And now we're back to, "Because I said so."



In a handful of non-gamespeed practice situations, Jimmer has shown himself to be marginally quicker and athletic than the scouts expected him to be. If workouts were the be-all/end-all of talent evaluation, Marshon Brooks would be the #1 pick.

We will see then. If he is drafted in the first half of round one then it is believed he will be able to play "D". If he goes past 15, then I will get on here and apologize to you.

troyc11a
06-23-2011, 07:06 PM
Jordan and Miller Career PPG:
Jordan - 30.1
Miller - 18.2

Jordan vs Miller PPG head-to-head:
Jordan - 29.5
Miller - 19.5

Conclusion: Reggie simultaneously lit up and shut down Jordan.

I am more impressed with Miller's D than anything else. And to think he was ripped for all those years for not playing defense.

PacerDude
06-23-2011, 07:46 PM
If he is drafted in the first half of round one then it is believed he will be able to play "D".Huh ??

Since86
06-24-2011, 09:34 AM
Yeah, I'm making it up. The four years of Jimmer struggling defensively with pick-and-rolls, getting over screens and keeping people in front of him just didn't happen. And does actual data count as evidence? Jimmer Fredette's Career Averages at BYU were 2.65 rebounds per game, 1.2 steals per game, and a stellar 0.075 blocks per game. Uh, hold me back?

It's pretty obvious you never watched him, or BYU, or you'd know that they didn't play man-to-man defense. (or read any of my posts that talk about how they played a 2-3 zone exclusively)

Reginald
06-24-2011, 09:49 AM
It's pretty obvious you never watched him, or BYU, or you'd know that they didn't play man-to-man defense. (or read any of my posts that talk about how they played a 2-3 zone exclusively)

ex·clu·sive·ly / ikˈsklo͞osivlē/
Adverb: To the exclusion of others; only; solely

And it's pretty obvious you don't know the meaning of the word "exclusively." BYU sat in a 2-3 zone most of the time. But when the opposing team's outside shooting got hot, they occasionally switched to man-to-man.

Since86
06-24-2011, 10:14 AM
They were down two possessions in the Florida game, in overtime, and stayed in the 2-3 zone.

I'll take the word over NBA GMs that say he was better and defense than the orginally thought, over the word of Reginald on PacersDigest. Either way, we'll find out.

troyc11a
06-24-2011, 10:21 AM
Huh ??

Nobody is going to be drafted at 10 who the team believes cannot play any defense whatsoever. Does no good to score 2 and then give up 2.
Sac obviously believes he can play some D or they would never have drafted him so high. So, all the posts suggesting that Jimmer cannot play D can officially stop. Otherwise, you are proving yourself to be very dumb!

judicata
06-24-2011, 10:42 AM
I'll take the word over NBA GMs that say he was better and defense than the orginally thought, over the word of Reginald on PacersDigest. Either way, we'll find out.

I'll take my eyes over hearsay. I guess people just disagree on stuff.

Slick Pinkham
06-24-2011, 10:59 AM
I'll take my eyes over hearsay. I guess people just disagree on stuff.

It's not heresay that he tested out at a 33 inch vertical jump, better than most, and was faster in the agility "cone" drill than Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, and other supposedly superior athletes at the PG position.

Stopwatches and tape measures are overrated, for sure, but the thought that Jimmer is a total non-athlete who couldn't possibly guard his own shadow is unlikely to be true, as determined by the GM who drafted him and by the other GMs who were scrambling to trade up and try to draft him.

Since86
06-24-2011, 11:04 AM
I'll take my eyes over hearsay. I guess people just disagree on stuff.

Adn how much of an effort did you see Jimmer actually put into playing defense?

Not much, which has been my ENTIRE freaking point. I don't look at a car sitting on the side of the road and say "well that car can't be driven" just because I've never seen it driven.

Jimmer didn't even TRY to play defense. It's silly to try and evaluate someone on something when they don't even try to show you what they can do.

Am I saying Jimmer will even be an average defender? Hell no. I'm simply saying that there is no way you can really evaluate what kind of defender he is, unless you think he's going to stand on one of the elbows and simply turn in circles as the ball is moved.

Do you think that's how he's going to play defense? Because if you believe your eyes, then that's what you saw.

We really don't know what any draft pick will be, or what they are capable of doing on an NBA floor. Anyone who say's otherwise is a fool.

That's my point. Sure, he was horrible at defense at BYU, but he also didn't really care to even attempt to be average. He won't sniff an NBA floor with that type of effort.

All I'm saying is, we haven't seen him give an effort, so we can't judge his defense WHILE GIVING AN EFFORT.

But once again, we all saw Jimmer stand in one spot and turn around, so clearly that's what he's going to do at this level. :rolleyes:

PacerDude
06-24-2011, 11:07 AM
All I'm saying is, we haven't seen him give an effort, so we can't judge his defense WHILE GIVING AN EFFORT.Maybe the non-effort WAS his effort.

Since86
06-24-2011, 11:14 AM
Maybe the non-effort WAS his effort.

Maybe. But maybe pigs will learn how to fly, too. But I seriously doubt it.

I was joking when I said people must think he will just stand in one spot, but maybe I should have been serious.

EDIT: Just the whole notion that you can only believe what you see is just silly. That means Jimmer will average 28pts in the NBA. I saw him do it, so obviously that's what he's going to do.