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View Full Version : Is standing pat such a bad idea?



ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 07:19 PM
I keep seeing all these trade rumors and suggestions and I can't help but ask myself why? I haven't seen one that is going to take us to the promise land like some people act like it would. Why are we so eager to trade Grange, Hibbert or someone else when this team is finally showing a positive direction?

Yes we had 37 wins. And yes we got in the playoffs because of a terrible Eastern conference after the top teams. But the win total isn't the point here. Its the way this team played. Its the competitiveness this team showed in the series against the #1 seeded Chicago Bulls. Its having a coach who plays to the strength of the players and not his system.

With Coach Vogel at the helm for a full year last season, this team would have won 42-43 games. Thats a 10 win improvement. Thats pretty damn good in the NBA.

I'm getting sick of people acting like last season was the peak of this roster's potential. Thats just bull ****. I think taking games off LA, Boston, Dallas, Miami and our series with Chicago shows that this team has more potential than some people like to give them credit for. And there is this idea we don't have any young talent. Collison, Hibbert, George, Hansbrough, and Stephenson are all talented young players. We don't know yet if they are the long term answer, but can we give them a chance? Collison, a second year player, just gets demolished on here. Let the guy have a coach for a full off season and regular season. He has played so many different roles in his two seasons that any judgement isn't fair. Hibbert has rough patches but the guy is still figuring out how to get his body right. He went through a huge transformation before last season and it was rough adjusting to it. He's working to fix this now. George, well the kid is just a stud. Hansbrough will always have a place on any team. And Lance, we know the potential is there, he just needs to keep himself focused on basketball.

Yes, this team has holes. Some may be answered by the guys above, some may not. We don't know. This roster has been going through so many changes in the past three years. We haven't been able to get an accurate read on anyone really. I want to see what this team can do, under a good coach, for more than half a season.

Is Granger on the LeBron, Dirk, Wade, Kobe level? No. But that doesn't mean we trade him for a draft pick that we hope turns out to be on that level because that guy isn't in this draft. And I don't want to take a step or two backwards to hope to get there somewhere in the future. We are already building towards the future. Plus, Paul George could very well turn out to be that guy we are looking for. I see it in his game. And I don't think I'm the only one.

This team, as it is, will be better next year just from our young guys improving and having a better coach. Will we compete with Miami and Chicago for the ECF next year? No. I don't see any likely trade happening that would allow us to do such a thing.

Obviously we will have to fill out our roster and the idea of this is more about core moves and standing pat with our core DC/George/Granger/Hibbert and to a lesser extent Lance and Hans. I think the PF position is the spot we need most help in. It would help everyone on the court, especially Roy. And we need another scorer as I don't think George is ready for the second option just yet (and I hope I'm wrong about that). I've said I like Nene and Jamaal Crawford (off the bench) for awhile now. And we can get those guys without giving up someone from out core.

Obviously there are exceptions to this idea of standing pat. If someone like Chris Paul or Dwight Howard becomes available, you throw the kitchen sink at them to try and get the deal done. Everyone on here says how we need this franchise player and then wants to do these deals that don't give us one. What's the point of trading Danny for a player on the level of Danny? To make you feel warm and fuzzy inside that a trade was made?

For the most part, I don't want to see a major change in the roster, because it won't be getting us this franchise player that is so highly sought after. A lot of these trades just seem like lateral moves or moves that would set us back a season or so. This team finally got back into the playoffs. It finally showed us a positive sign. I don't want to go backwards. This team can't afford to go backwards.

So I say keep this core together, add to it. Let them develop. Let them become a team.

ECKrueger
06-21-2011, 07:23 PM
I am with you. Unless there is an obvious upgrade, I would prefer to keep our core and make minor additions, say OJ Mayo for example.

Pacersalltheway10
06-21-2011, 07:28 PM
Standing completely pat? No. Minor deals that will help round out the roster? Yes.

tfarks
06-21-2011, 07:31 PM
Things might be different if we could hear what Larry hears. But as far as I'm concerned you don't make a trade to go into win now mode if it's not perfect. These guys are young and growing and coming together. And more talent is on the way.

I'm pretty sure the front office is thinking the same things. They're not moving any pieces unless they win the deal. Since that isn't the fairest of things, I'm not expecting much of a shakeup. No reason to get impatient now.

2minutes twowa
06-21-2011, 07:48 PM
That's what's great about where the team is at right now. I feel like they are a solid team already, so you just make imrovements as they become available. DC, George, Granger, Tyler and Roy is a good starting 5. So you can wait and be patient until that opportunity comes to create a GREAT starting 5 or add depth to your bench! I love that Larry wants to build the strongest bench in the league! That's the way you win championships!!!!!:dance:

Anthem
06-21-2011, 08:36 PM
Standing pat would be what, exactly? Our roster consists of Roy, Tyler, Granger, George, Inferno, Collison, Posey, AJ, Brandon, and Lance. We lost Foster, McBob, Dun, Solo, TJ.

If we re-sign Vogel and add Shaw, re-sign McBob and Foster, pick the #15, bring over The Stank, trade Brandon and Posey for a solid vet that fits, and pick up some help in the FA market, is that "standing pat?"

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 08:40 PM
Standing pat would be what, exactly? Our roster consists of Roy, Tyler, Granger, George, Inferno, Collison, Posey, AJ, Brandon, and Lance. We lost Foster, McBob, Dun, Solo, TJ.

If we re-sign Vogel and add Shaw, re-sign McBob and Foster, pick the #15, bring over The Stank, trade Brandon and Posey for a solid vet that fits, and pick up some help in the FA market, is that "standing pat?"

See this paragraph:


Obviously we will have to fill out our roster and the idea of this is more about core moves and standing pat with our core DC/George/Granger/Hibbert and to a lesser extent Lance and Hans. I think the PF position is the spot we need most help in. It would help everyone on the court, especially Roy. And we need another scorer as I don't think George is ready for the second option just yet (and I hope I'm wrong about that). I've said I like Nene and Jamaal Crawford (off the bench) for awhile now. And we can get those guys without giving up someone from out core.

The standing pat has to do with the core group we have here.

BlueNGold
06-21-2011, 08:50 PM
I'm not sure "standing pat" is even an option. Are we not losing several players due to expiring contracts?

Anyway, there is a lot of room between "standing pat" and "blowing it up". If making a few trades at the end of the bench qualifies as "standing pat"...I suppose that might happen. I do expect something more than that to happen but I doubt we see any of the core players to be traded. Anything of course is possible.

Anthem
06-21-2011, 09:05 PM
See this paragraph:

The standing pat has to do with the core group we have here.

I get it, I just don't buy it.

There's a lot of room between "breaking up the core" and "standing pat."

Anthem
06-21-2011, 09:07 PM
I'm not sure "standing pat" is even an option. Are we not losing several players due to expiring contracts?

Anyway, there is a lot of room between "standing pat" and "blowing it up".
Holy cow great minds really do think alike.

And ours too.

vnzla81
06-21-2011, 09:10 PM
"standing pat" would bring another sucky season to Indiana, if we "stand pat" we are going to be competing for the 8th seat again.

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 09:21 PM
"standing pat" would bring another sucky season to Indiana, if we "stand pat" we are going to be competing for the 8th seat again.

And what trade has been brought up that will bring us past 45 wins next season?

Standing saying is probably the wrong term for what I'm saying. Anthem and blue n gold, I agree with both of you as we need to fill out the roster, but I want this core to stay together.

tfarks
06-21-2011, 09:22 PM
"standing pat" would bring another sucky season to Indiana, if we "stand pat" we are going to be competing for the 8th seat again.

Yeah that's very possible. But what can you do if the right trade isn't there? Like ilive mentioned, the proposed trades we have seen will not equate to becoming an Eastern final contender. Trading Granger or Hibbert will likely result in too lateral a move. If we're not getting a bonafide star its much more optimal to keep the core, improve the pieces around it with small moves, and use cash to either facilitate a worthy trade or give it to Eric Gordon next offseason.

Tasting the playoffs have set expectations higher and quicker than this team is ready for.

itzryan07
06-21-2011, 09:24 PM
Yea but what makes u think Granger is going to get us there? Trade him while his value is high.

tfarks
06-21-2011, 09:31 PM
Granger is still young. His value will not plummet anytime soon. You only move him for a perfect fit, a star. Which is what Larry is doing and why he hasn't been traded.

No one is untouchable, George is the closest. Bird knows this team needs an influx of talent but being impatient is never the right idea. The best way to improve this team is to let the core grow, possibly adding a piece through this draft, and bring in a FA next year. They have to bring in talent without losing talent, they will never touch the Heat without that happening.

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 09:41 PM
Yea but what makes u think Granger is going to get us there? Trade him while his value is high.

Get us where? Why is his value dropping? I'm talking about going into this season and keeping our core together. There is no doubt this team will be better next season.

itzryan07
06-21-2011, 09:46 PM
Get us where? Why is his value dropping? I'm talking about going into this season and keeping our core together. There is no doubt this team will be better next season.

obviously the promise land. His value is dropping because his game has declined for the 2nd straight year. the 1st u could say he had the injury. This year was annoying to watch.

BornReady
06-21-2011, 09:49 PM
obviously the promise land. His value is dropping because his game has declined for the 2nd straight year. the 1st u could say he had the injury. This year was annoying to watch.

Well, I'm going to blame JOB :D
Granger is only entering his prime now. I highly doubt his value is going to drop bar a big injury (knock on wood)

tfarks
06-21-2011, 09:51 PM
obviously the promise land. His value is dropping because his game has declined for the 2nd straight year. the 1st u could say he had the injury. This year was annoying to watch.

He's not untouchable. But you can't just trade him. It takes more than 1 party. Teams aren't sitting out there asking how they can make the Pacers better.

This is why it sucks for us message board peasants, not knowing anything sucks. I need an inside connection to the Pacers FO.

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 09:52 PM
obviously the promise land. His value is dropping because his game has declined for the 2nd straight year. the 1st u could say he had the injury. This year was annoying to watch.

When did I ever say he was leading us to the promise land? I don't think he is. But a team needs more than just "that guy". And what realistic trades that have been discussed are bringing in that guy?

And seeing Danny play in the playoffs, he clearly can still play at the all star level of a few seasons ago. I expect him to be better next year just because the team is better as well.

TheDon
06-21-2011, 09:55 PM
I'm pretty much of this mindset ever since i've been combing through this draft and knowing what was available for free agency especially after David West went down. Even then it's not like I was saying to myself "We better nail this draft and this offseason in free agency or all these years building up to this point have been a waste." I look at all the people who decided to return to college for another year and all the talent they have in next years draft, plus free agents the likes of Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, and Chris Paul being unrestricted free agents and that looks a hell of a lot more appealing then the role players we could get in this draft or in free agency to make us marginally better. Plus an off-season without Satan as our coach and another year + playoffs this past season to motivate our young guys that are still improving and I think we could still be better off then we were this past season the way things are. Unless some no-brainer deal falls into place i'm very much happy with our team.

vnzla81
06-21-2011, 09:56 PM
Well, I'm going to blame JOB :D
Granger is only entering his prime now. I highly doubt his value is going to drop bar a big injury (knock on wood)

Entering his prime? :confused:

BornReady
06-21-2011, 10:01 PM
Entering his prime? :confused:

yes, entering his prime.

aaronb
06-21-2011, 10:18 PM
And what trade has been brought up that will bring us past 45 wins next season?

Standing saying is probably the wrong term for what I'm saying. Anthem and blue n gold, I agree with both of you as we need to fill out the roster, but I want this core to stay together.


We haven't seen 45 wins in almost a decade? I don't understand the sense of accomplishment some fans are having after season where we lost 11 more than we won?

My only guess is that some of you were too young to remember how proud this franchise once was?

vnzla81
06-21-2011, 10:25 PM
We haven't seen 45 wins in almost a decade? I don't understand the sense of accomplishment some fans are having after season where we lost 11 more than we won?

My only guess is that some of you were too young to remember how proud this franchise once was?

Yep some people sound pretty happy to win 40/44 games next season and compete for the 8th seat again, sometimes I think that making it to the playoffs in a crappy bottom eastern conference was not a blessing after all.

sopgy
06-21-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm pretty much of this mindset ever since i've been combing through this draft and knowing what was available for free agency especially after David West went down. Even then it's not like I was saying to myself "We better nail this draft and this offseason in free agency or all these years building up to this point have been a waste." I look at all the people who decided to return to college for another year and all the talent they have in next years draft, plus free agents the likes of Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, and Chris Paul being unrestricted free agents and that looks a hell of a lot more appealing then the role players we could get in this draft or in free agency to make us marginally better. Plus an off-season without Satan as our coach and another year + playoffs this past season to motivate our young guys that are still improving and I think we could still be better off then we were this past season the way things are. Unless some no-brainer deal falls into place i'm very much happy with our team.


I totally agree. Maybe my logic is not the same as the NBA superstars of today, but I think we will be very attractive next summer. We have a great young core plus huge cap space (Posey) regardless of what the nee CBA will look like. I really think we have a shot of convincing one of the superstars (Howard, DWill, Paul, maybe Gordon) to get a huge paycheck and be part of a winning program for 5 years.

We have a fighting chance to really hit a home-run. It would be a shame to waste the cap space so close to the opportunity. Although, I wouldn't mind getting Josh Smith for a couple of pieces.

We are in such a great position that Charles Barkley saw it and people listen to him because they know he knows what he is talking about.

aaronb
06-21-2011, 10:41 PM
Yep some people sound pretty happy to win 40/44 games next season and compete for the 8th seat again, sometimes I think that making it to the playoffs in a crappy bottom eastern conference was not a blessing after all.



Unfortunately I kinda felt this same way. 37 wins and us MISSING the playoffs this past season would have likely forced ownership to make major changes this summer. Instead 37 wins and a quick playoff bouncing has somehow convinced the apologists that this ship is somehow moving in a positive direction.

This STILL isn't a .500 team next year. This core still probably doesn't EVER get to 45 wins. At least not without a MAJOR talent addition. Like either a guy better than anyone currently on the roster, Or 2 guys better than anyone other than Granger.

Sad how far this franchise has fallen :(

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 10:43 PM
We haven't seen 45 wins in almost a decade? I don't understand the sense of accomplishment some fans are having after season where we lost 11 more than we won?

My only guess is that some of you were too young to remember how proud this franchise once was?

Or maybe some of us realize building a team takes some damn time? And making the playoffs was an accomplishment for this team, regardless of how many wins we had. This team is finally showing an upward swing since everything went to ****.

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 10:45 PM
Unfortunately I kinda felt this same way. 37 wins and us MISSING the playoffs this past season would have likely forced ownership to make major changes this summer. Instead 37 wins and a quick playoff bouncing has somehow convinced the apologists that this ship is somehow moving in a positive direction.

This STILL isn't a .500 team next year. This core still probably doesn't EVER get to 45 wins. At least not without a MAJOR talent addition. Like either a guy better than anyone currently on the roster, Or 2 guys better than anyone other than Granger.

Sad how far this franchise has fallen :(

How are we so far away from 45 wins when Vogel had us on a pace to win 42 games if he coached the full season?

aaronb
06-21-2011, 10:47 PM
How are we so far away from 45 wins when Vogel had us on a pace to win 42 games if he coached the full season?



He went 21 and 23.

Only way he was on a 42 win pace is if the NBA expands the schedule to 100 games?

aaronb
06-21-2011, 10:49 PM
Or maybe some of us realize building a team takes some damn time? And making the playoffs was an accomplishment for this team, regardless of how many wins we had. This team is finally showing an upward swing since everything went to ****.



36 wins
36 wins
32 wins
37 wins


Just don't see this great upwards momentum?

Anthem
06-21-2011, 10:55 PM
He went 21 and 23.

Only way he was on a 42 win pace is if the NBA expands the schedule to 100 games?
Considering he only coached 39 regular season games, that's not bad.

tfarks
06-21-2011, 10:55 PM
Yep some people sound pretty happy to win 40/44 games next season and compete for the 8th seat again, sometimes I think that making it to the playoffs in a crappy bottom eastern conference was not a blessing after all.

Who are you referring to? If you're talking about this thread I don't see that what so ever.

If anything, getting that 8th seed has made people believe that we can make some magical trade this off-season that will push us out of this 8th seed limbo. It's not happening, not a chance. The impending CBA dysfunction combined with the dearth of the free agent crop absolutely screwed this franchise this off-season. No one is happy to win 40 games, but its better than making a trade without proper foresight that trades off temporary success for the long term plan in place now.

Everyone has agreed you make a trade if its for the best, but there is absolutely zero certainty that this trade is out there. I've defended ilive in this thread because marginal improvement is nothing to get excited over. You stay patient for a proper trade and you bring in FA talent next year when the crop of players is 100x better than this year. When you start off with the assets the Pacers currently have there's no room for mistakes. You have to shoot for the moon or else you just get ***** slapped for the next decade by the Heat and Bulls.

Instead of trading Granger you have to bring in someone like Eric Gordon to play alongside him. Now you have a proper wing rotation. There's also the possibility to take advantage of a big market team needing flexibility to bring in a CP3 or Dwight Howard. That's when you jump, not now.

Anthem
06-21-2011, 10:56 PM
36 wins
36 wins
32 wins
37 wins
Explains why so many people were glad to see Obie go.

Heck, without a coaching chance we might have been under 32 wins.

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 11:06 PM
36 wins
36 wins
32 wins
37 wins


Just don't see this great upwards momentum?

Because win totals aren't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the product in the court. Look at our playoff games against Chicago, the team hasn't played that well since before they quit on rick Carlisle.

And its funny how you include the playoff record with the regular season record. You know damn well I and anyone else talking about projecting a season win total is regular season only. Vogel was 20-19 in the regular season. Counting the playoffs where we faced a 62 win team for 5 games is not the same competition we face night in and night out in the regular season.

vnzla81
06-21-2011, 11:18 PM
How are we so far away from 45 wins when Vogel had us on a pace to win 42 games if he coached the full season?

42 games is pretty much what we are going to win next year if we stay with DC as our starting point guard and Danny as our best player, this team needs an upgrade in almost every position, if that doesn't happen get ready for another 8th seat and another 1st round exit.

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 11:23 PM
42 games is pretty much what we are going to win next year if we stay with DC as our starting point guard and Danny as our best player, this team needs an upgrade in almost every position, if that doesn't happen get ready for another 8th seat and another 1st round exit.

So despite DC, George, Hans, Hibbert, lance, price improving because they are all young and anyone we add to the core we are going to win as many games as we would have last year with vogel as coach?

vnzla81
06-21-2011, 11:27 PM
So despite DC, George, Hans, Hibbert, lance, price improving because they are all young and anyone we add to the core we are going to win as many games as we would have last year with vogel as coach?

We won 37games last year, we would never know how many we could have won with Vogel as the coach, let's stop with the if's, for all I know the whole team minus Tyler quitted on him, how we know that the same team wasn't going to quit in the middle of the season?

The Sleeze
06-21-2011, 11:28 PM
36 wins
36 wins
32 wins
37 wins


Just don't see this great upwards momentum?

People are excited because we got to 37 wins with a 2nd year PG, a practically rookie PF, and a rookie SG who never would have a gotten a shot with JOB.

aaronb
06-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Because win totals aren't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the product in the court. Look at our playoff games against Chicago, the team hasn't played that well since before they quit on rick Carlisle.

And its funny how you include the playoff record with the regular season record. You know damn well I and anyone else talking about projecting a season win total is regular season only. Vogel was 20-19 in the regular season. Counting the playoffs where we faced a 62 win team for 5 games is not the same competition we face night in and night out in the regular season.


Well let me play devils advocate here......


Is it possible that 20-19 under Vogel could be?

A) an example of a really small sample size

B) Aided by the fact that many teams are in TANK mode at the end of the season?

I think its far from a foregone conclusion that standing pat leads us to 40 wins. Much less 45?

ilive4sports
06-21-2011, 11:37 PM
We won 37games last year, we would never know how many we could have won with Vogel as the coach, let's stop with the if's, for all I know the whole team minus Tyler quitted on him, how we know that the same team wasn't going to quit in the middle of the season?

Because the players actually like playing for Vogel? You know damn well this team played better for Frank than they did for JOB. Frank even had the locker room meltdown and still managed to go over .500.

CooperManning
06-21-2011, 11:49 PM
Good job fighting the good fight in this thread, L4S, I'm with you.

Eleazar
06-22-2011, 12:06 AM
If you are expecting only 42 wins by this team next year you are underestimating how good this team is.

While we are playing the what if game with how many wins this team had under Vogel. If it wasn't for Lance the 20 wins could have easily been 23 wins or if you are extremely optimistic 26 wins.

pacer4ever
06-22-2011, 12:26 AM
If you are expecting only 42 wins by this team next year you are underestimating how good this team is.

While we are playing the what if game with how many wins this team had under Vogel. If it wasn't for Lance the 20 wins could have easily been 23 wins or if you are extremely optimistic 26 wins.

if your expecting much more than 42 wins your kidding your self. Unless major changes happen in the off season.

40 would be a reasonable expectation next year. The year after 50 if we get some good free agents like EJ , and Roy grows some balls, and Paul George becomes a beast, and we get a good PF, and the rest of the young guys really improve.

Eleazar
06-22-2011, 12:32 AM
if your expecting much more than 42 wins your kidding your self. Unless major changes happen in the off season.

40 would be a reasonable expectation next year. The year after 50 if we get some good free agents like EJ , and Roy grows some balls, and Paul George becomes a beast, and we get a good PF, and the rest of the young guys really improve.

If it wasn't for JOB this team would have been a .500 team two seasons ago, and would have had a winning record this season.

Taterhead
06-22-2011, 12:35 AM
Larry Bird talked about this very thing today. You just can't afford to pass up opportunities to improve your basketball team. If the right move is on the table now, then now is the right time to make the move. It's as simple as that. We can't just bank on very young players to take us there one day. Building a championship team is something that is done over years of working every single day.

ilive4sports
06-22-2011, 12:35 AM
I think 45 wins is a good expectation for next season. Quite frankly 40 isn't really an improvement in my book.

will567
06-22-2011, 12:37 AM
To be honest I was hoping for real change and it looks like we are going to get more of the same. I wanted a new front office group and a new direction but that did not happen. It also looks like Vogel will be back in the most messed coaching search in the world. I cannot remember ever a coach getting hired on the condition of his lead coach because he could not handle to locker room. This was said today to the press by Bird and all I could think is why not hire a real coach and not a figure head because he backed into the playoffs. It makes no sense to me! On the player side to say that Lance is your best player is crazy! How can you even begin to address the player side when you are counting on Lance to be your difference maker of the future? I guess from all the passes and the look the other ways Lance has gotten in his short time here we can expect to see more of that in the future. As for this great core of players we have that quite on one coach and had locker room issues under the other yes let’s keep that thing going. This is a very poor group of leaders that have the heart of sheep. Danny is clearly not a team leader or a #1 guy with a window as an asset that might be closing or closed, George is the only real upside player we have, and Darrin, Tyler and Roy are what they are and have hit the ceiling as upside assets. So once again we stuck this time not against the cap but by the players we have. Are best chance to upgrade the team was last year with the expiring contracts and we let that go by. So the plan as I see it is to hope Lance is the player Bird thinks he is and leads us to the next level. Those of you thinking well we have cap room think again because we have been losing money and now will be the time to recoup some of those losses. Get ready for a rerun of the 80's. We need to give up on this try and make the 8th seed stuff do a complete tear down and rebuild in the draft. That might bring people back because they are not interested in the way things are going. We need to bring some excitement back and people want to see an up and coming team with hype that comes with it. I am tired of standing pat I what change and I bet I am not alone.

CooperManning
06-22-2011, 12:40 AM
If it wasn't for JOB this team would have been a .500 team two seasons ago, and would have had a winning record this season.

Easy there, that 32-win team wouldn't have been .500 under Phil Jackson. The TJ Ford show at PG, Troy Murphy forcing 3s, Roy in his second year, Granger missing 20 games, Hansbrough's ear infection. That was just a miserable season. Last year? Yeah we might have been around .500.

pacer4ever
06-22-2011, 12:50 AM
To be honest I was hoping for real change and it looks like we are going to get more of the same. I wanted a new front office group and a new direction but that did not happen. It also looks like Vogel will be back in the most messed coaching search in the world. I cannot remember ever a coach getting hired on the condition of his lead coach because he could not handle to locker room. This was said today to the press by Bird and all I could think is why not hire a real coach and not a figure head because he backed into the playoffs. It makes no sense to me! On the player side to say that Lance is your best player is crazy! How can you even begin to address the player side when you are counting on Lance to be your difference maker of the future? I guess from all the passes and the look the other ways Lance has gotten in his short time here we can expect to see more of that in the future. As for this great core of players we have that quite on one coach and had locker room issues under the other yes let’s keep that thing going. This is a very poor group of leaders that have the heart of sheep. Danny is clearly not a team leader or a #1 guy with a window as an asset that might be closing or closed, George is the only real upside player we have, and Darrin, Tyler and Roy are what they are and have hit the ceiling as upside assets. So once again we stuck this time not against the cap but by the players we have. Are best chance to upgrade the team was last year with the expiring contracts and we let that go by. So the plan as I see it is to hope Lance is the player Bird thinks he is and leads us to the next level. Those of you thinking well we have cap room think again because we have been losing money and now will be the time to recoup some of those losses. Get ready for a rerun of the 80's. We need to give up on this try and make the 8th seed stuff do a complete tear down and rebuild in the draft. That might bring people back because they are not interested in the way things are going. We need to bring some excitement back and people want to see an up and coming team with hype that comes with it. I am tired of standing pat I what change and I bet I am not alone.

QFT

i agree with most of what you say here. Except for the part Simon wont spend he will but the thing with that is I believe he will over pay to keep our own guys like Roy and Dc ect. We needed a complete tear down 5 years ago it is a shame we didn't do it. But we are gonna be mediocre for years unless we get extremely lucky with player development IMO.

Constellations
06-22-2011, 02:19 AM
Great post IL4S.:bowdown:

Peck
06-22-2011, 02:27 AM
It's a process people.

There is no magic player who is going to appear on our court & push us to a title.

I've said it before & I'll say it till I die. There is no one way to win a title, if there was every team in the NBA would be trying to do it. Having the best overall player doesn't work by itself & Miami has proven that even two of the best players is not enough.

If we get to 41 wins next year & make the playoffs, I'm sorry I know some of you won't like to hear this but it is a marked improvement. It shows that a coaching change did make a difference (we knew that already but still).

I'm all for upgrading talent, now show me a trade where we get an immediate upgrade in talent (not some mythical fancy passing point guard who has never played a game in the NBA or some undersized college forward) that will make us a top 5 team in the east & I'm all ears.

But some of you guys are going nuts & are (God I can't believe I'm actually saying this) wanting to make trades for the sake of making trades.

Some of you just hate Granger or don't think he's good enough, fine. Get me a better player not a lateral move & no I'm not accepting Paul George as the upgrade either.

Now talk to me about Granger for Eric Gordon and I'll listen. Give me Danny as part of a package to bring in Chris Paul or Derron Williams or similar players & I'm all for it.

But if there are moves made (which of course there will have to be due to all of our free agents) you need to look to smaller trades that help build on what we have.

Next off season we can make a bigger splash.

pacer4ever
06-22-2011, 02:47 AM
It's a process people.

There is no magic player who is going to appear on our court & push us to a title.

I've said it before & I'll say it till I die. There is no one way to win a title, if there was every team in the NBA would be trying to do it. Having the best overall player doesn't work by itself & Miami has proven that even two of the best players is not enough.

If we get to 41 wins next year & make the playoffs, I'm sorry I know some of you won't like to hear this but it is a marked improvement. It shows that a coaching change did make a difference (we knew that already but still).

I'm all for upgrading talent, now show me a trade where we get an immediate upgrade in talent (not some mythical fancy passing point guard who has never played a game in the NBA or some undersized college forward) that will make us a top 5 team in the east & I'm all ears.

But some of you guys are going nuts & are (God I can't believe I'm actually saying this) wanting to make trades for the sake of making trades.

Some of you just hate Granger or don't think he's good enough, fine. Get me a better player not a lateral move & no I'm not accepting Paul George as the upgrade either.

Now talk to me about Granger for Eric Gordon and I'll listen. Give me Danny as part of a package to bring in Chris Paul or Derron Williams or similar players & I'm all for it.

But if there are moves made (which of course there will have to be due to all of our free agents) you need to look to smaller trades that help build on what we have.

Next off season we can make a bigger splash.

I agree people expecting us to win 45+ next year isn't fair to the talent on the team. I would be pleased with 41 wins and growth from the young guys.

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 06:39 AM
41 wins next year and another 8th seat would be horrible.

Constellations
06-22-2011, 06:51 AM
41 wins next year and another 8th seat would be horrible.

Horrible? We would be in the playoffs, our guys know the intensity it takes, and we would have a legitimate chance at moving on. Am I the only one who believes in our guys that this could happen?


41 wins next year and another 8th seat would be alright with me.

Fixed*

Anthem
06-22-2011, 07:15 AM
I expect the Pacers to be over .500 this year. If they're not, it will be an improvement but still a disappointment.

pacersgroningen
06-22-2011, 07:24 AM
I agree with Peck, good points made. I know we need talent upgrade at a lot of positions, but I get the feeling a lot of people want upgrades to the point of all-stars at every single position. It's just not going to happen, you don't have 5 guys that are that good. Everybody wants a team with Paul, Bryant, James, Melo and Howard, but the only time that'll happen is with team USA.

It's a lot about who fits with who and how can you make sure the skillsets mesh enough to have succes. Right now I'm totally cool with seeing our guys develop, growing pains will come again next season, but after the ending of last season I can't imagine not enjoying the process we're in.

Next year we'll try to be a .500 team and I'll just sit back and watch which of the guys improves enough to be the future star of this franchise. If George or Lance is the next big thing, well there you go, one less hole to fill. Giving these guys some time to prove themselves is not 'standing pat' to me, it's finding out what will be the next right move.

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 07:28 AM
I think is funny that people call improvement going from 37wins to 41 :wtf:

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 07:36 AM
Some of you just hate Granger or don't think he's good enough, fine. Get me a better player not a lateral move & no I'm not accepting Paul George as the upgrade either.

I don't know if you know this but I don't hate Danny and I don't want him to be traded just for the sake of trading him, I would also say that I am sorry but I don't trust a guy that has quit on the team few times to lead this team anywhere

pacersgroningen
06-22-2011, 07:36 AM
I think is funny that people call improvement going from 37wins to 41 :wtf:

More wins and one more year of experience for the youngsters, making them better assets. I would call that an improvement. If you want 10 more wins to call it an improvement, you'd be done with your team quite soon.

PacerHound
06-22-2011, 07:47 PM
I have often gotten the idea on PD that a lot of the guys here if they could would just buy a title if that was possible - buy one, not earn one. Kind of be the what the Yankees have been only in basketball. If it was possible would you buy the best 5 players at their respective positions, bring them in, win a title, and then say you enjoyed it? Why do you think so many people were glad to see Miami lose?

Yes, the nature of the NBA game is players are traded around and rosters change from season to season but this business of I can buy a better player than you can and more of them stinks. Not a lot of sport in that for me.

ECKrueger
06-22-2011, 07:50 PM
We are still building. If we BUILD a winner, it will be all the more sweet.

aaronb
06-22-2011, 07:53 PM
I have often gotten the idea on PD that a lot of the guys here if they could would just buy a title if that was possible - buy one, not earn one. Kind of be the what the Yankees have been only in basketball. If it was possible would you buy the best 5 players at their respective positions, bring them in, win a title, and then say you enjoyed it? Why do you think so many people were glad to see Miami lose?

Yes, the nature of the NBA game is players are traded around and rosters change from season to season but this business of I can buy a better player than you can and more of them stinks. Not a lot of sport in that for me.



If we could get 5 all stars this year, I would be all for it!!!

Hicks
06-22-2011, 08:06 PM
Assuming Frank is our coach, we have the roster we have now plus a few smaller holes filled in from free agency, and our health and lockeroom health are nothing out of the NBA norm, I think we can win 42 games or so. From what I've seen, 45 wins wouldn't shock me. Being a Pacers fan for a long time now, neither would 35 wins.

Eleazar
06-22-2011, 08:22 PM
If we could get 5 all stars this year, I would be all for it!!!

You would also be all for blowing up this whole team. You have made it clear in previous posts that you think this team has no talent at all.

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 08:25 PM
You would also be all for blowing up this whole team. You have made it clear in previous posts that you think this team has no talent at all.

Who cares if you are blowing up the whole team if you have 5 stars?

BlueNGold
06-22-2011, 09:25 PM
Assuming Frank is our coach, we have the roster we have now plus a few smaller holes filled in from free agency, and our health and lockeroom health are nothing out of the NBA norm, I think we can win 42 games or so. From what I've seen, 45 wins wouldn't shock me. Being a Pacers fan for a long time now, neither would 35 wins.

I expect 42 wins give or take 2 games. This improvement will be based on growth of a large number of young, fairly talented players, but also simply the fact the previous records were based on a different group of players...a number who will not be Pacers next year. We had more success with the young guys last year and they will be front and center all of next year. They've worked through their rookie years and I expect a nice bump in play from some of them.

Peck
06-22-2011, 09:43 PM
I think is funny that people call improvement going from 37wins to 41 :wtf:

You're looking at this in a vacuum.

You’re going on what our year end total is vs. what could be. However before we go further let's both be clear. Going from 37 wins to 41 wins is by the purest definition an improvement. It may not be enough to satisfy you but it is an improvement. If we went from 37 wins down to 32 wins would you say it is the same or would you say we regressed?

However let's step away from the vacuum for a minute and look at it from this angle.

We ended the year with 37 wins with our young players playing substantial and meaningful minutes. We played a hard fought playoff series with all of our young guys playing substantial meaningful minutes.

Now contrast that to what we had up until January.

We were probably on par to win 30 - 32 games & that is only if we did what we did every year he was here and that is grab some victory's towards the end when most of the other bottom feeders were shutting it down for the year.

Our power forward rotation consisted of Tyler Hansbrough for a few min. with James Posey (you remember him right) get the most consistent minutes of all of our fours. Josh McRoberts had been relegated from start to DNP-CD and then thrown in here and there with no rhyme or reason.

Paul George was sometimes in street clothes & Darren Collison was totally lost on what was supposed to be his role on the club.

I think sometimes you forget how bad it really was under O'Brien.

Sure I want to make giant strides and get to the finals, but I believe that we can make an incremental step and get better players in the near future. If we play .500 ball this season that is no small accomplishment IMO. You know as well as I know that those 36 win teams were really only about 30 wins and that 32 win team really should have been about 25.

No, Danny Granger is not LeBron James nor is he Carmello Anthony or maybe even Rudy Gay (I'll dispute that but I'll just let it go for this argument). But he isn't some scrub either.

I don't know how good Paul George will be, he may progress he may regress this season, but what I saw in him was a player who has skill and IMO he is a perfect compliment to Danny at the wing spot.

Look you won't have to worry about Mike Dunleavy taking big min. anymore, nor will you have to worry about Posey ever again.

If the only way you are ever going to be happy is if we are title contenders I would really make the suggestion to find something less stressful. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying you or anyone should be content. But I am saying when they are just starting to come around out of what I consider an abysmal time that you are just going to have to give them some time to improve the team and not freak out every time that we don't trade Roy Hibbert for Dwayne Wade or the likes.

Sit back, enjoy the process and for the love of God remember that not but 5 months ago we were in Satan's clutches’ and there was no hope.

I think maybe that's why I'm far more content than you are is because I remember that our power forwards main goal was to shoot three's and spread the floor, that our point guard was not supposed to handle the ball and that defense while constantly being preached about but never truly was focused on.

xBulletproof
06-22-2011, 09:49 PM
Holy Cow, Seth hijacked Peck's account! :)

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 10:13 PM
You're looking at this in a vacuum.

You’re going on what our year end total is vs. what could be. However before we go further let's both be clear. Going from 37 wins to 41 wins is by the purest definition an improvement. It may not be enough to satisfy you but it is an improvement. If we went from 37 wins down to 32 wins would you say it is the same or would you say we regressed?

However let's step away from the vacuum for a minute and look at it from this angle.

We ended the year with 37 wins with our young players playing substantial and meaningful minutes. We played a hard fought playoff series with all of our young guys playing substantial meaningful minutes.

Now contrast that to what we had up until January.

We were probably on par to win 30 - 32 games & that is only if we did what we did every year he was here and that is grab some victory's towards the end when most of the other bottom feeders were shutting it down for the year.

Our power forward rotation consisted of Tyler Hansbrough for a few min. with James Posey (you remember him right) get the most consistent minutes of all of our fours. Josh McRoberts had been relegated from start to DNP-CD and then thrown in here and there with no rhyme or reason.

Paul George was sometimes in street clothes & Darren Collison was totally lost on what was supposed to be his role on the club.

I think sometimes you forget how bad it really was under O'Brien.

Sure I want to make giant strides and get to the finals, but I believe that we can make an incremental step and get better players in the near future. If we play .500 ball this season that is no small accomplishment IMO. You know as well as I know that those 36 win teams were really only about 30 wins and that 32 win team really should have been about 25.

No, Danny Granger is not LeBron James nor is he Carmello Anthony or maybe even Rudy Gay (I'll dispute that but I'll just let it go for this argument). But he isn't some scrub either.

I don't know how good Paul George will be, he may progress he may regress this season, but what I saw in him was a player who has skill and IMO he is a perfect compliment to Danny at the wing spot.

Look you won't have to worry about Mike Dunleavy taking big min. anymore, nor will you have to worry about Posey ever again.

If the only way you are ever going to be happy is if we are title contenders I would really make the suggestion to find something less stressful. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying you or anyone should be content. But I am saying when they are just starting to come around out of what I consider an abysmal time that you are just going to have to give them some time to improve the team and not freak out every time that we don't trade Roy Hibbert for Dwayne Wade or the likes.

Sit back, enjoy the process and for the love of God remember that not but 5 months ago we were in Satan's clutches’ and there was no hope.

I think maybe that's why I'm far more content than you are is because I remember that our power forwards main goal was to shoot three's and spread the floor, that our point guard was not supposed to handle the ball and that defense while constantly being preached about but never truly was focused on.

Damn that was a long reading :laugh:

Yes we were in hell but like I said before we should expect more from this team next year, if with the clown the most wins we had were 37(I think) why not expect more if we don't have a power forward that shoots threes and a clown as a coach? if everything is going to be how we wanted it to be all this time why not expect a better result? are we really saying that JOB was that good of a coach that a guy like Vogel while coaching the right way is only going to get us four more wins?

Again, just because I disagree with some of the instances here doesn't mean that I want to trade Danny or Roy for anybody or that I hate them, I like them but if we have a chance to improve the team by trading them I won't be opposed to do that.

troyc11a
06-22-2011, 10:45 PM
I think 45 wins is a good expectation for next season. Quite frankly 40 isn't really an improvement in my book.

This team needs to continue to acquire talent. With a good draft pick, smart use of the cap money, this team should win around 41 games at least.
Think about it. There is a young pg, sg, c, pf, who are all going to be better next year.

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 10:54 PM
I think 45 wins is a good expectation for next season. Quite frankly 40 isn't really an improvement in my book.

This exactly what I think.

Taterhead
06-22-2011, 11:06 PM
You're looking at this in a vacuum.

You’re going on what our year end total is vs. what could be. However before we go further let's both be clear. Going from 37 wins to 41 wins is by the purest definition an improvement. It may not be enough to satisfy you but it is an improvement. If we went from 37 wins down to 32 wins would you say it is the same or would you say we regressed?

However let's step away from the vacuum for a minute and look at it from this angle.

We ended the year with 37 wins with our young players playing substantial and meaningful minutes. We played a hard fought playoff series with all of our young guys playing substantial meaningful minutes.

Now contrast that to what we had up until January.

We were probably on par to win 30 - 32 games & that is only if we did what we did every year he was here and that is grab some victory's towards the end when most of the other bottom feeders were shutting it down for the year.

Our power forward rotation consisted of Tyler Hansbrough for a few min. with James Posey (you remember him right) get the most consistent minutes of all of our fours. Josh McRoberts had been relegated from start to DNP-CD and then thrown in here and there with no rhyme or reason.

Paul George was sometimes in street clothes & Darren Collison was totally lost on what was supposed to be his role on the club.

I think sometimes you forget how bad it really was under O'Brien.

Sure I want to make giant strides and get to the finals, but I believe that we can make an incremental step and get better players in the near future. If we play .500 ball this season that is no small accomplishment IMO. You know as well as I know that those 36 win teams were really only about 30 wins and that 32 win team really should have been about 25.

No, Danny Granger is not LeBron James nor is he Carmello Anthony or maybe even Rudy Gay (I'll dispute that but I'll just let it go for this argument). But he isn't some scrub either.

I don't know how good Paul George will be, he may progress he may regress this season, but what I saw in him was a player who has skill and IMO he is a perfect compliment to Danny at the wing spot.

Look you won't have to worry about Mike Dunleavy taking big min. anymore, nor will you have to worry about Posey ever again.

If the only way you are ever going to be happy is if we are title contenders I would really make the suggestion to find something less stressful. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying you or anyone should be content. But I am saying when they are just starting to come around out of what I consider an abysmal time that you are just going to have to give them some time to improve the team and not freak out every time that we don't trade Roy Hibbert for Dwayne Wade or the likes.

Sit back, enjoy the process and for the love of God remember that not but 5 months ago we were in Satan's clutches’ and there was no hope.

I think maybe that's why I'm far more content than you are is because I remember that our power forwards main goal was to shoot three's and spread the floor, that our point guard was not supposed to handle the ball and that defense while constantly being preached about but never truly was focused on.

Sometimes I think our fanbase has been traumatized to the point that they are afraid to have expectations.

For three years Bird has pointed to this day as "their time".I hope to god he didn't mean an improvement of 4 wins and another 8th seed. We have a lot of resources to make improvements to the roster and I don't think people should expect minimal improvement at all.

The way we played towards the end of the season was as good as a 41-42 win team. So an improvement to me would be no less than 45+. I think the team should make it a goal to become a dominant home team next year. They were 24-17 last year, and I think they can get that loss column to single digits. That should get them in prime position to achieve 45+.

vnzla81
06-22-2011, 11:09 PM
Sometimes I think our fanbase has been traumatized to the point that they are afraid to have expectations.

For three years Bird has pointed to this day as "their time".I hope to god he didn't mean an improvement of 4 wins and another 8th seed. We have a lot of resources to make improvements to the roster and I don't think people should expect minimal improvement at all.

The way we played towards the end of the season was as good as a 41-42 win team. So an improvement to me would be no less than 45+. I think the team should make it a goal to become a dominant home team next .


I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels like this, thank you.

pacer4ever
06-22-2011, 11:30 PM
Sometimes I think our fanbase has been traumatized to the point that they are afraid to have expectations.

For three years Bird has pointed to this day as "their time".I hope to god he didn't mean an improvement of 4 wins and another 8th seed. We have a lot of resources to make improvements to the roster and I don't think people should expect minimal improvement at all.

The way we played towards the end of the season was as good as a 41-42 win team. So an improvement to me would be no less than 45+. I think the team should make it a goal to become a dominant home team next year. They were 24-17 last year, and I think they can get that loss column to single digits. That should get them in prime position to achieve 45+.
the resources are gonna be saved until the 2012 FA crop which is much stronger IMO. Plus a lot of the resources have to be saved to pay our own "core"(as larry calls them) guys. We arent get nearly any free agents this year IMO and that is good IMO.

beast23
06-22-2011, 11:54 PM
41 wins, .500?

I can't by into that at all... at least not as a default.

It just all depends on what transpires with player acquisitions. If we were to stand pat with starters as Collison, George, Granger, Hansbrough and Hibbert, I would honestly consider anything below 41 wins as a sub-par season.

If we are able to acquire a new starting PF (without giving up DC, PG, DG, TH or RH) that is a good match with Hibbert and has the defensive and rebounding qualities that we need, then quite honestly I would consider anything less than 45 wins as a sub-par season.

I do NOT advocate trading just for the sake of trading. But I do believe in moving forward, even if marginally this season. Our youngsters will continue to get heavy minutes. With the reward of heavy minutes, I not only expect each of them to show improvement over last season, I demand it. No improvement would be an indication of who should be traded in my opinion... just like the position that Rush is in right now.

I am very disappointed in the recent rumor of a 62M cap in the new CBA. There would have been a much greater chance of teams having to dump high-paid quality players if the cap were 8M to 10M lower. But, I'm still hoping we can get our hands on a very good player that is being dumped.

I do expect the Pacers to emerge from the coming season with a lot of their cap space. And I believe that my win range will increase even more at that time. But even then, it all boils down to how much our younger players develop and who we are able to acquire.

Taterhead
06-23-2011, 10:04 AM
the resources are gonna be saved until the 2012 FA crop which is much stronger IMO. Plus a lot of the resources have to be saved to pay our own "core"(as larry calls them) guys. We arent get nearly any free agents this year IMO and that is good IMO.

Most of it? Yes. But they are definitely not gonna "stand pat". The amount of rumors that are out there tells you how active they are right now. They definitely have some moves they want to make. And they are not insignificant moves either.

This team will look a lot different by the start of the season.

PacerHound
06-23-2011, 02:00 PM
If we could get 5 all stars this year, I would be all for it!!!

I'd quit watching or root for the opposition.