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Pacer Fan
06-17-2011, 08:47 PM
I want JJ!

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/30092842

cdash
06-17-2011, 08:49 PM
I'll pass.

Frostwolf
06-17-2011, 08:49 PM
pass.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 08:53 PM
I want JJ!

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/30092842

JJ makes more sense than Milsap or Smith. He is what this team needs and is only 22 y/o. I would not hesitate to give up a 1st for him depending on how long he is under contract. I would not trade the pick for a rental.

Edit: He is under control for 2 more years @ 2.3 and a little over 3mill.
Getting him would be 10x better than the other PF's mentioned. He is already a better rebounder and athlete than Milsap ever will be.

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:06 PM
JJ makes more sense than Milsap or Smith. He is what this team needs and is only 22 y/o. I would not hesitate to give up a 1st for him depending on how long he is under contract. I would not trade the pick for a rental.

I don't really understand how he is what this team needs. We need a long defender/rebounder at power forward. JJ is soft and he does a lot of floating around the perimeter. All that is secondary though, the real reason I don't want him is in your post. He's a 22 year old power forward on a team that is rebuilding. Why the hell would they trade someone like that if he was any good?

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:07 PM
Edit: He is under control for 2 more years @ 2.3 and a little over 3mill.
Getting him would be 10x better than the other PF's mentioned. He is already a better rebounder and athlete than Milsap ever will be.

Man I'm really not trying to pick on you, I just seem to disagree with a lot of what you are posting tonight :D

JJ Hickson is absolutely, positively not a better rebounder than Paul Millsap. Athlete? Sure. But Millsap is a superior player at this juncture, and will always be a better rebounder. Millsap led the nation in rebounding in college, and is certainly no slouch in the NBA either.

pacer4ever
06-17-2011, 09:08 PM
I don't really understand how he is what this team needs. We need a long defender/rebounder at power forward. JJ is soft and he does a lot of floating around the perimeter. All that is secondary though, the real reason I don't want him is in your post. He's a 22 year old power forward on a team that is rebuilding. Why the hell would they trade someone like that if he was any good?

They want to somehow get Derrick Williams to replace him :)

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:11 PM
They want to somehow get Derrick Williams to replace him :)

Yeah, I get that, and it makes perfect sense. I just don't know if JJ Hickson (redundant on Minnesota) + #4 pick would do the trick. I don't know if they are offering him just for this particular reason, or if he's available to the highest bidder.

pacer4ever
06-17-2011, 09:13 PM
Yeah, I get that, and it makes perfect sense. I just don't know if JJ Hickson (redundant on Minnesota) + #4 pick would do the trick. I don't know if they are offering him just for this particular reason, or if he's available to the highest bidder.

Minney already has enough PF's and SF's they shouldn't be interested in JJ. I would think that it would be a 3 team trade if anything happens to get a asset to trade up to #2

Pacer Fan
06-17-2011, 09:20 PM
I have read on several sites this evening that Irving is not a lock. That Cavs may take Williams at 1 and Knight at 4. They may also be looking to trade JJ to gat a SG or SF. They will be heavy in both positions PF/PG. Just a thought.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:21 PM
Man I'm really not trying to pick on you, I just seem to disagree with a lot of what you are posting tonight :D

JJ Hickson is absolutely, positively not a better rebounder than Paul Millsap. Athlete? Sure. But Millsap is a superior player at this juncture, and will always be a better rebounder. Millsap led the nation in rebounding in college, and is certainly no slouch in the NBA either.

Thanks for not picking on me!

How is Milsap a better rebounder when Hickson outrebounds him? Hickson averages a rebound more every game and is doing it at 22 years of age. If you want to argue better player, that is fair. Arguing that a guy who rebounds less is actually a superior rebounder. I am not buying that.

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:22 PM
I have read on several sites this evening that Irving is not a lock. That Cavs may take Williams at 1 and Knight at 4. They may also be looking to trade JJ to gat a SG or SF, they will be heavy in both positions. Just a thought.

Meh, he's as near a lock as you can get. The Cavs are just posturing. Poorly.

CableKC
06-17-2011, 09:23 PM
I don't really understand how he is what this team needs. We need a long defender/rebounder at power forward. JJ is soft and he does a lot of floating around the perimeter. All that is secondary though, the real reason I don't want him is in your post. He's a 22 year old power forward on a team that is rebuilding. Why the hell would they trade someone like that if he was any good?
According to the CBS article:


Hickson was at one point considered a major building block for the Cavs, but he struggled under Byron Scott, especially at the offensive end where he shot 46 percent, a significant drop off from previous seasons once he was given more minutes. Hickson is still young, though, and on a team that isn't, you know, hemorrhaging like roadkill, he could be a useful frontcourt rotation player. Maybe Cleveland can ship him to a contender needing talented big men who aren't aging, somewhere that needs depth. Oh. like Miam....oh. Nevermind.
If we are too look at the PF options that MAY ( or may not ) be on the market......players like Josh Smith or Milsap.....IMHO...I think that either of them are going to cost too much for us to get. But if ALL the Cavs are asking for is #15 for him...I'd easily take him...heck, I'd even expand it to #15+BRush for Hickson+32 .

Salarywise....he makes $2.3 mil in 2011-2012 and can become a RFA in 2012-2013...so we don't lose out on losing any real capspace if he's a total failure.

At worst, he's a rental ( just like BRush is ) and he's certainly better then anybody that we can get at #15 ( assuming that Brooks and Jimmer are drafted before 15...which is the likely case ). At best, we get a 13/8 athletic and somewhat experienced PF that cost us IMHO very little in a draft that happens to suck IF we are left with a pick of Klay/Hamilton/Fariad or anyone not named Brooks or Jimmer.

#15 ( and some change ) for Hickson is the very definition of a "low risk / high reward" move.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:23 PM
They want to somehow get Derrick Williams to replace him :)

Derrick Williams > P. Milsap
Derrick Williams > JJ Hickson
Derrick Williams > Josh Smith


So, if the Cavs could get Irving and Williams in this draft, how long until they are a contender?

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:25 PM
According to the CBS article:


Regardless...if ALL the Cavs are asking for is #15 for him...I'd easily take him...heck, I'd even expand it to #15+BRush for Hickson+32 .

Salarywise....he makes $2.3 mil in 2011-2012 and can become a RFA in 2012-2013...so we don't lose out on losing any real capspace if he's a total failure.

At worst, he's a rental ( just like BRush is ) and he's certainly better then anybody that we can get at #15 ( assuming that Brooks and Jimmer are drafted before 15...which is the likely case ).

At best, we get a 13/8 athletic and somewhat experienced PF that cost us IMHO very little that is the very definition of a "low risk / high reward" move.

Ding Ding Ding - some common sense has finally arrived to this board!!!!

Young
06-17-2011, 09:26 PM
I don't know a ton about JJ but I would not mind the Pacers trading for him. He is young and still on his rookie contract. He would provide some much needed athleticism to the frontcourt. He put up decent numbers as a starter last season (14 pts, 9 rebs, 29 MPG).

JJ won't be a difference maker like a Josh Smith or Paul Millsap would be. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good addition though if the price is right.

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:26 PM
Thanks for not picking on me!

How is Milsap a better rebounder when Hickson outrebounds him? Hickson averages a rebound more every game and is doing it at 22 years of age. If you want to argue better player, that is fair. Arguing that a guy who rebounds less is actually a superior rebounder. I am not buying that.

This past year he had less rebounds, career wise (not a totally fair argument) Millsap has been better. After glancing at the stats I'm actually surprised at Hickson's rebounding numbers. They are higher than I thought. Still, I take Hickson's stats with a grain of salt. He played on a horrible team. Either way, it's negligble to me.

Pacer Fan
06-17-2011, 09:29 PM
Meh, he's as near a lock as you can get. The Cavs are just posturing. Poorly.

If it was me I would take Williams and Knight. Not even a second thought!

But, We will see in a few more days! :)

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:29 PM
I certainly don't think he 10X better than Milsap but how is he a better rebounder than JJ?

Stats don't tell it all but JJ got more boards in less minutes than Milsap this year.

Give me Milsap every time but I think JJ will average more boards than Milsap in his NBA career.

We really need a player like JJ. His rebounding and athleticsim is better than anything we will get at the 15 spot. Milsap might be better right now but he will never be the rebounder or athlete JJ is. And that is what this team needs, an athletic 4 who can get up and down the court and rebound. Milsap is a decent player, but his talents do not in any way match up with our need. We already have a smaller, less than athletic 4. Dont need another one. (BTW- I love Tyler, not a crack on him at all)

Gamble1
06-17-2011, 09:30 PM
I don't know a ton about JJ but I would not mind the Pacers trading for him. He is young and still on his rookie contract. He would provide some much needed athleticism to the frontcourt. He put up decent numbers as a starter last season (14 pts, 9 rebs, 29 MPG).

JJ won't be a difference maker like a Josh Smith or Paul Millsap would be. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good addition though if the price is right.
I would take Brooks over a trade with JJ. I would even take Klay Thompson over JJ.

Personally JJ won't be that much better than tyler to justify trading away 2 fringe starters (Rush/Klay) for a starting pf on a bad team.

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:31 PM
According to the CBS article:


If we are too look at the PF options that MAY ( or may not ) be on the market......players like Josh Smith or Milsap.....IMHO...I think that either of them are going to cost too much for us to get. But if ALL the Cavs are asking for is #15 for him...I'd easily take him...heck, I'd even expand it to #15+BRush for Hickson+32 .

Salarywise....he makes $2.3 mil in 2011-2012 and can become a RFA in 2012-2013...so we don't lose out on losing any real capspace if he's a total failure.

At worst, he's a rental ( just like BRush is ) and he's certainly better then anybody that we can get at #15 ( assuming that Brooks and Jimmer are drafted before 15...which is the likely case ). At best, we get a 13/8 athletic and somewhat experienced PF that cost us IMHO very little that is the very definition of a "low risk / high reward" move.

I wouldn't slam the phone down at a Hickson-for-#15 offer. I'd think about it certainly. But he was only a 13/8 player because he played on a crappy team with no other options. You bring him in here and he won't get anything near that. Is he better than Tyler Hansbrough? Good enough to start? I don't think so. He would provide nice depth, but he isn't a great fit, and if we are going to trade the #15 pick, I'd rather get a veteran who more solidly fills a need. With Hickson, you are rolling the dice a little bit, which is fine for the cost, but just not my top preference of what to do with the asset.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:31 PM
This past year he had less rebounds, career wise (not a totally fair argument) Millsap has been better. After glancing at the stats I'm actually surprised at Hickson's rebounding numbers. They are higher than I thought. Still, I take Hickson's stats with a grain of salt. He played on a horrible team. Either way, it's negligble to me.

Utah wasnt great either. Hey, neither player is what this team needs to be a champion. We need multiple pieces. JJ is cheaper with more upside and I just think he fits into the pieces we already have better. On another team, I can see fans getting more excited over Milsap than JJ. But not Pacer fans.

pacer4ever
06-17-2011, 09:33 PM
If it was me I would take Williams and Knight. Not even a second thought!

But, We will see in a few more days! :)

Dwill i can kind of understand but dont really. But Knight wtf? that guy is a project at the pg he still needs a lot of work his handles are sloppy and he is a project IMO at the pg i think he would do fine at sg.

Kyrie is going #1 and for very good reason IMO

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:34 PM
We really need a player like JJ. His rebounding and athleticsim is better than anything we will get at the 15 spot. Milsap might be better right now but he will never be the rebounder or athlete JJ is. And that is what this team needs, an athletic 4 who can get up and down the court and rebound. Milsap is a decent player, but his talents do not in any way match up with our need. We already have a smaller, less than athletic 4. Dont need another one. (BTW- I love Tyler, not a crack on him at all)

You left out the #1 biggest need for us in a power forward: Defense. Does Hickson play much defense?

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:35 PM
Utah wasnt great either. Hey, neither player is what this team needs to be a champion. We need multiple pieces. JJ is cheaper with more upside and I just think he fits into the pieces we already have better. On another team, I can see fans getting more excited over Milsap than JJ. But not Pacer fans.

I'm not arguing for or against Millsap: I don't want him either.

LetsTalkPacers
06-17-2011, 09:37 PM
Dwill i can kind of understand but dont really. But Knight wtf? that guy is a project at the pg he still needs a lot of work his handles are sloppy and he is a project IMO at the pg i think he would do fine at sg.

Kyrie is going #1 and for very good reason IMO
its a good thing they have baron davis then. its not like the cavs are in a hue hurry to win now. the are in year 1 of rebuilding.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:37 PM
You left out the #1 biggest need for us in a power forward: Defense. Does Hickson play much defense?

I never paid that much attention to his "D" when I watched Cleveland. But he has got to be as good or better than Milsap. He is to good of an athlete not to be.

I think this team needs interior "D" more than "O" anyway. Hibbert is not a stopper and neither is Tyler. I would much rather see us go and get a defensive minded 4 who does not score than to get a scoring 4 who plays little "D".

Gamble1
06-17-2011, 09:38 PM
We really need a player like JJ. His rebounding and athleticsim is better than anything we will get at the 15 spot. Milsap might be better right now but he will never be the rebounder or athlete JJ is. And that is what this team needs, an athletic 4 who can get up and down the court and rebound. Milsap is a decent player, but his talents do not in any way match up with our need. We already have a smaller, less than athletic 4. Dont need another one. (BTW- I love Tyler, not a crack on him at all)
Man your quick. :)

I think we project pretty good as far as team rebounding if we start PG, DG, Tyler, HIbby. We're not going to kill you on the boards but we won't killed either with that lineup IMO.

I think JJ hurts us in the fact that the double team on HIbbert is effective if he's in the lineup. ITs a classic argument of offense over defense.

cdash
06-17-2011, 09:42 PM
I never paid that much attention to his "D" when I watched Cleveland. But he has got to be as good or better than Milsap. He is to good of an athlete not to be.

I think this team needs interior "D" more than "O" anyway. Hibbert is not a stopper and neither is Tyler. I would much rather see us go and get a defensive minded 4 who does not score than to get a scoring 4 who plays little "D".

Defense is about a lot more than athleticism alone.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:43 PM
Man your quick. :)

I think we project pretty good as far as team rebounding if we start PG, DG, Tyler, HIbby. We're not going to kill you on the boards but we won't killed either with that lineup IMO.

I think JJ hurts us in the fact that the double team on HIbbert is effective if he's in the lineup. ITs a classic argument of offense over defense.

But dont you think that Tyler and JJ would compliment each other? JJ would be a better athlete and rebounder while Tyler would be the starter who brings more "O". I think they would be a really good and not to expensive combo at the 4. Certainly an upgrade over Tyler and McBob.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:44 PM
Defense is about a lot more than athleticism alone.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.

Defense is about 90% heart. A player has to want to play it. Even players like Carmelo "can" play defense, they just dont want too.
But who is out there that fits that description?

Pacer Fan
06-17-2011, 09:44 PM
Man your quick. :)

I think we project pretty good as far as team rebounding if we start PG, DG, Tyler, HIbby. We're not going to kill you on the boards but we won't killed either with that lineup IMO.

I think JJ hurts us in the fact that the double team on HIbbert is effective if he's in the lineup. ITs a classic argument of offense over defense.

How would JJ hurt the Pacers exactly? JJ is a great finisher and would/should not be left alone for weak side help to defend Hibbert.

LetsTalkPacers
06-17-2011, 09:45 PM
who ever said jj hickson isnt a better rebounder is wrong.

Gamble1
06-17-2011, 09:50 PM
But dont you think that Tyler and JJ would compliment each other? JJ would be a better athlete and rebounder while Tyler would be the starter who brings more "O". I think they would be a really good and not to expensive combo at the 4. Certainly an upgrade over Tyler and McBob.
That depends on "how" expensive he really is! Its hard for me to believe that the Cavs would give him up for a 15th pick.

In addition we could trade for a better player than JJ when the CBA is worked out IMO.

Personally I am not sold he's worth 2 fringe starters for basically a slight upgrade over our current pf's.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 09:55 PM
That depends on "how" expensive he really is! Its hard for me to believe that the Cavs would give him up for a 15th pick.

In addition we could trade for a better player than JJ when the CBA is worked out IMO.

Personally I am not sold he's worth 2 fringe starters for basically a slight upgrade over our current pf's.

If he is not available for the 15 then this discussion is useless. No way Indy gives up the 15 and one of our young core. I would be excited to get him for the 15, but thats it.
BTW- he would drastically improve our pf spot. Which do you like better = Tyler/McBob or Tyler/JJ?

cdash
06-17-2011, 10:03 PM
who ever said jj hickson isnt a better rebounder is wrong.

It was me. I know the stats. I don't think it's as open-and-shut as that, and I don't think that I am necessarily wrong. To avoid bickering about something I don't care about either way though, I'll drop it.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 10:05 PM
It was me. I know the stats. I don't think it's as open-and-shut as that, and I don't think that I am necessarily wrong. To avoid bickering about something I don't care about either way though, I'll drop it.

cdash = you the man!

LetsTalkPacers
06-17-2011, 10:08 PM
It was me. I know the stats. I don't think it's as open-and-shut as that, and I don't think that I am necessarily wrong. To avoid bickering about something I don't care about either way though, I'll drop it.
:rolleyes:

CableKC
06-17-2011, 10:15 PM
I wouldn't slam the phone down at a Hickson-for-#15 offer. I'd think about it certainly. But he was only a 13/8 player because he played on a crappy team with no other options. You bring him in here and he won't get anything near that. Is he better than Tyler Hansbrough? Good enough to start? I don't think so. He would provide nice depth, but he isn't a great fit
At worst, I can see that Hickson is on the same level as Hansbrough as a solid backup PF ( which I view Hansbrough as ). But at best, he's more athletic and better rebounder then Hansbrough. Even if Hickson is JUST A LITTLE better then Hansbrough is....if the cost is simply #15 and non-consequential filler ( BRush or Lance ), then I'm okay with paying that to see how a different type of PF ( specifically a more athletic one that isn't totally inept on the offensive end ) can do.

One more thing to consider...I don't get the impression that Hickson wouldn't put up similar #s as he did last year with the Cavs. We're talking about jumping from the Cavs to the Pacers where he would still get comprable minutes and scoring opportunities...not jumping from the Cavs to a Top Tier Team where he would likely be a 4th/5th option while sharing minutes with other more established Frontcourt Players.


if we are going to trade the #15 pick, I'd rather get a veteran who more solidly fills a need. With Hickson, you are rolling the dice a little bit, which is fine for the cost, but just not my top preference of what to do with the asset.
That's the real question.....assuming that Jimmer or Brooks is off the board ( which is very possible ), what else do you expect to get with #15?

But let's expand that question to include anyone else on the roster that you'd want to include and/or part with.

Assuming that we do not include any of the core Players that everyone wants to keep....specifically PG, Hibbert, Granger, Hansbrough and DC. we're looking at #15 + some combination of Inferno/BRush/AJ/Lance/2nd round Pick. Can we get a better deal then getting a Player like Hickson?

My initial answer is probably not much that would make a difference.

Even going one step further.....would we get someone better with #15 + ( Hansbrough, DC or 2013-2014 1st round pick ) along with some combination of Inferno/BRush/AJ/Lance/2nd round Pick? I guess it's possible....but if we part with Hansbrough, DC or 2013-2014 1st round pick.....I'd want someone on the level of Josh Smith...which I still don't think would be enough to spur the Hawks to move him to the East as opposed to the West ( my guess for where he will likely be moved to IF he is traded ). As for Milsap....IMHO...that would be too much for him.

To be fair, I do not know what we can get for #15 and some combination of our Players and assets. I admit that if a Player like Josh Smith or some other Borderline All-Star Granger-Level Player ( like Iggy or Monta ) COULD BE HAD for BRush + #15 + ( Hansbrough, DC or future 1st ), then I'd have no problem picking that deal over #15 for Hickson.

But IMHO....I like the future core of Players that we will likely build around ( Granger/PG/DC/Hansbrough/Hibbert ) and the most that I am willing to pay for any of the Player that is likely available is BRush + #15 + "filler". Realistically, I don't think that we can get the type of Players that everyone is hoping for ( without giving up something that we don't want to give up. That is why I think that IF nothing else is on the table and some deal could be had surrounding #15 for Hickson without giving up any future assets ( like the 2012-2013 1st round pick or $$$ ) and/or anyone in our core ( Granger/PG/DC/Hansbrough/Hibbert ), then I am okay with that.

PacerPenguins
06-17-2011, 10:21 PM
Derrick Williams > P. Milsap
Derrick Williams > JJ Hickson
Derrick Williams > Josh Smith


So, if the Cavs could get Irving and Williams in this draft, how long until they are a contender?

how can u compare williams to these 3? he hasnt played 1 NBA game

pacer4ever
06-17-2011, 10:23 PM
When they draft Irving Sessions said he would ask for a trade i hope Larry checks the price that he would cost he would be a good defensive pg (which is the type that i covet defense baby!!).

mikeyism
06-17-2011, 10:27 PM
Here is the scouting report from ESPN:

+ Promising big man who can finish around basket and knock down open 15-footer.

+ Strong, athletic 4 who should improve as a rebounder and develop a post game.

+ Defense remains a liability, especially versus perimeter 4s.


Hickson is a decent rebounder and has the size and build to be a good defender, but what really sets him apart is his skill as a finisher. He ranked third in the NBA in shooting percentage in the basket area at 65.7 percent, and overall converted 55.4 percent of his attempts. He was 11th among power forwards in TS percent, and at 22 he figures to improve enough in the other phases of the game to be a viable NBA starter.

The one thing he'll have to upgrade is his defense -- he still gets lost on pick-and-rolls and help situations. This resulted in the Cavs defending dramatically worse (6.8 points per 100 possessions) with him on the court. But he has the physical skills to guard the position; it may just be a question of getting the reps.

LetsTalkPacers
06-17-2011, 10:32 PM
Here is the scouting report from ESPN:

+ Promising big man who can finish around basket and knock down open 15-footer.

+ Strong, athletic 4 who should improve as a rebounder and develop a post game.

+ Defense remains a liability, especially versus perimeter 4s.


Hickson is a decent rebounder and has the size and build to be a good defender, but what really sets him apart is his skill as a finisher. He ranked third in the NBA in shooting percentage in the basket area at 65.7 percent, and overall converted 55.4 percent of his attempts. He was 11th among power forwards in TS percent, and at 22 he figures to improve enough in the other phases of the game to be a viable NBA starter.

The one thing he'll have to upgrade is his defense -- he still gets lost on pick-and-rolls and help situations. This resulted in the Cavs defending dramatically worse (6.8 points per 100 possessions) with him on the court. But he has the physical skills to guard the position; it may just be a question of getting the reps.
where do you find scouting reports on espn?

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 10:33 PM
how can u compare williams to these 3? he hasnt played 1 NBA game

He is worth more without question. Do you realize you can say what you just said about any player who has ever played in the NBA? How could we compare Lebron, Jordan, Ewing or any of the past greats to players who were already in the league.

There is not a GM or sincere fan in America who wouldnt take DWill over any of those players mentioned. Far more upside. That's all I was getting at.

Justin Tyme
06-17-2011, 10:52 PM
I like JJ and was all for getting him in the proposed rumor of trading Murphy to Cleveland last year. LBJ was adamant about Cavs not trading JJ. He liked JJ's potential.

One thing about JJ is he played some center with Varejao out this past season, and did an admirable job. He could play some b/u 5 if necessary for the Pacers.

I'd much rather trade for Varejao than JJ if it is at all possible.

troyc11a
06-17-2011, 10:56 PM
I like JJ and was all for getting him in the proposed rumor of trading Murphy to Cleveland last year. LBJ was adamant about Cavs not trading JJ. He liked JJ's potential.

One thing about JJ is he played some center with Varejao out this past season, and did an admirable job. He could play some b/u 5 if necessary for the Pacers.

I'd much rather trade for Varejao than JJ if it is at all possible.

Me too! But is he available? Varejao is the perfect fit for us because he can play the 5 as well.

pacer4ever
06-17-2011, 10:57 PM
where do you find scouting reports on espn?

insider

Hicks
06-17-2011, 11:34 PM
I'll pass.

In general I agree, but if it's a bargain-bin kind of deal, they ARE two things we could use: Size at the 1, and athleticism at the 4.

Pacer Fan
06-17-2011, 11:43 PM
where do you find scouting reports on espn?

Here is the link...Click on Hollinger. Couple things about Hollinger's scouting report is most are atleast a year old. I have seen some more then 2 years old, which makes his scouting reports inaccurate alot of times. Also, IMO, On some Analysis his Adjectives and Adverbs can be abit strong, He does this to seperate the analogy from one player to another or everyone would be more of the same. But for that reason he can be a bit extreme at times and just way off base.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3437/jj-hickson

CableKC
06-18-2011, 12:04 AM
In general I agree, but if it's a bargain-bin kind of deal, they ARE two things we could use: Size at the 1, and athleticism at the 4.
Although most of this discussion has centered around Hickson, I'd consider Sessions as well given his contract and the likely role that he will play. A 6th/7th rotational Guard that earns $4.5 mil a year per season over the next 2 seasons that can play 24+ mpg while splitting time at the backup PG and SG spot isn't that bad if you ask me.

troyc11a
06-18-2011, 12:08 AM
Although most of this discussion has centered around Hickson, I'd consider Sessions as well given his contract and the likely role that he will play. A 6th/7th rotational Guard that earns $4.5 mil a year per season over the next 2 seasons that can play 24+ mpg while splitting time at the backup PG and SG spot isn't that bad if you ask me.

I only have one question about him: Can he play "D"?
If he is a good defensive pg I am interested since he is 6'3 and can score a little.

CableKC
06-18-2011, 12:12 AM
I'm not arguing for or against Millsap: I don't want him either.
Just nitpicking....but if you don't want Milsap...then aren't you arguing against getting him? ;)

pacer4ever
06-18-2011, 12:14 AM
Here is the link...Click on Hollinger. Couple things about Hollinger's scouting report is most are atleast a year old. I have seen some more then 2 years old, which makes his scouting reports inaccurate alot of times. Also, IMO, On some Analysis his Adjectives and Adverbs can be abit strong, He does this to seperate the analogy from one player to another or everyone would be more of the same. But for that reason he can be a bit extreme at times and just way off base.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3437/jj-hickson

DC's scouting report is surely old
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/hollinger/_/id/3973/darren-collison


+ Good defender despite size. Pressures ball, has great feet and long arms.

he is a below average defender IMO

CableKC
06-18-2011, 12:34 AM
I only have one question about him: Can he play "D"?
If he is a good defensive pg I am interested since he is 6'3 and can score a little.
I don't know if his defense has improved since he left Milwaukee....but from reading some of the posts on his defense ( when he was a FA ) on RealGM....his defense ( as suggested by Buck fans ) appears to be average at best....but nothing that would classify him as a "good to solid" defender. Of course, his defense could have improved when he was in Minny and Cleveland....but I don't really know.

The only concern that I have in getting Sessions is if we end up with the situation that we had before with TJ and Earl Watson where the backup ( at times ) was better then the "supposed" Starter. At this point...my hope is that DC really takes a step forward to solidify his role as the Starter and ( if acquired ) Sessions is the clearly defined "Backup Guard that is the 6th/7th option" off the bench.

LA_Confidential
06-18-2011, 12:42 AM
Me and a friend were talkin hoops an JJ came up. Kinda odd. I watched some Cavs on league pass after the Baron trade and JJ put up some monster games. He played out of position for most of the year with sideshow hurt but when the Cavs played at home it was all about JJ and he'd have the Q on fire.

CableKC
06-18-2011, 01:00 AM
Me and a friend were talkin hoops an JJ came up. Kinda odd. I watched some Cavs on league pass after the Baron trade and JJ put up some monster games. He played out of position for most of the year with sideshow hurt but when the Cavs played at home it was all about JJ and he'd have the Q on fire.
His Post All-Star Stats ( basically after BDiddy was traded there ), he averaged 32mpg/16.8ppg/10.7rpb while splitting time between the PF and Center spots.

Again, I'm not saying that he could put up great # on a average Team on the Pacers ( as opposed to a bad one like the Cavs )....but my initial guess is that he could put up something closer to last year's average of 13ppg/8rpg....which isn't that bad.

imawhat
06-18-2011, 01:03 AM
Cleveland, at one point, could have gotten a lot more for JJ.

I'd easily take him over Milsap, mainly because of $.

ensergio
06-18-2011, 01:37 AM
C'mon people, the kid can play:

http://youtu.be/flLpYXhpodc

Edit: I don't trade Granger or any of the young core for him (Collison, George, Hibbert or Hansbrough), but i am all-in about trade the pick.

Isaac
06-18-2011, 03:24 AM
I'd easily take him over Milsap, mainly because of $.

I'm in this boat too. Let's stockpile talent.

Instead of going after Milsap/Josh Smith/Iggy/Eric Gordon in trades that would lose us one of our core lets get guys on the cheap like Hickson and Mayo who could strengthen what we have without losing anything.

Peck
06-18-2011, 03:25 AM
Honest to God if you could get Hickson for the # 15 pick you have to take it. Heck if for no other reason than to use him in a package for a better player.

The 15th pick (whoever it is) most likely will not contribute much if anything in the up coming season so if you could get what I consider a decent young veteran (oxymoron I know) at a position that we need up grading at I say take it.

Hell I'd be happy to throw in Rush as well, but then again I'd be happy to throw Rush in to most any trade for that matter.

PacerGuy
06-18-2011, 08:25 AM
Honest to God if you could get Hickson for the # 15 pick you have to take it. Heck if for no other reason than to use him in a package for a better player.

The 15th pick (whoever it is) most likely will not contribute much if anything in the up coming season so if you could get what I consider a decent young veteran (oxymoron I know) at a position that we need up grading at I say take it.

Hell I'd be happy to throw in Rush as well, but then again I'd be happy to throw Rush in to most any trade for that matter.
IMO a player like Brooks would add more. Hickson is not much of an upgrade (if at all) over Tyler, and is a bit too similar in skill set & size. With Rush on his way out, there is a need @ SG & we need a shooter.
I guess the question is what can you get in trade or as a FA this off-season? Is it easier to get a SG or PF?

Really?
06-18-2011, 09:25 AM
Might have to pass on that one, Hickson just seems like one of those players that doesn't get it... crazy a person can get 20 pts 15 rbs, next game have stats that are no where close... guys is still young... but not sure about him though.

Justin Tyme
06-18-2011, 09:59 AM
Although most of this discussion has centered around Hickson, I'd consider Sessions as well given his contract and the likely role that he will play. A 6th/7th rotational Guard that earns $4.5 mil a year per season over the next 2 seasons that can play 24+ mpg while splitting time at the backup PG and SG spot isn't that bad if you ask me.



I have always been a Ramon Sessions fan from his beginning in Milwaukee his rookie year. I've stated on numerous occassions I'd like to see him as a Pacer. I firmly believe he'd be a great asset and attribute to the Pacers.

As you stated, his salary is not that high and for only 2 years. He's far better than Price for being the b/u PG. He brings the ability to be a starter at PG which is a hugh positive if DC can't start. I also firmly believe he would push DC in practice to become a better PG. I'm having my doubts that the Pacers are going to be able to draft a big PG out of this draft. Sessions would make a good acquition for the Pacers at PG.

Justin Tyme
06-18-2011, 10:18 AM
Honest to God if you could get Hickson for the # 15 pick you have to take it. Heck if for no other reason than to use him in a package for a better player.

The 15th pick (whoever it is) most likely will not contribute much if anything in the up coming season so if you could get what I consider a decent young veteran (oxymoron I know) at a position that we need up grading at I say take it.

Hell I'd be happy to throw in Rush as well, but then again I'd be happy to throw Rush in to most any trade for that matter.



Not to mention, although I already preiously did, he can play some 5. He has a back to the basket game that McBob doesn't. Not to mention he's better than McBob, and he is still on a rookie contract. I see positives for the Pacers in getting JJ. He's long and athletic as what Bird would like. The Pacers need to get more than 1 Big to replace the 3 FA Pacer Bigs (Foster, McBob, Solo). My guess would be only Foster will be re-signed of the 3. JJ makes McBob expendable and Solo wouldn't even be a good after thought compared to Hickson.

Gamble1
06-18-2011, 10:26 AM
How would JJ hurt the Pacers exactly? JJ is a great finisher and would/should not be left alone for weak side help to defend Hibbert.
Are you saying that he is a good shooter? There is two ways of looking at it. Depending upon who is double teaming and how the offense reacts to it. To me its not as simple as if JJ is left alone or given space that he can recieve a pass and dunk it on someone. Thats not whats going to happen on most double teams with Hibbert.

To me its more important that a guy doesn't need the same floor space to operate and more importantly the same time on the shot clock to be effective. Meaning JJ is good if he has a play ran for him in the beginning of the shot clock and the same goes for HIbbert. BOth however are not as effective if that play is broken or in this case a double team forces a pass.


Some friendly stats: Comparing JJ and Milsap

First JJ:

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width="100%" bgColor=#000000><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot selection <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Shot</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Jump</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>55% </TD><TD align=right>.347 </TD><TD align=right>66% </TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>4.4 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Close</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>32% </TD><TD align=right>.517 </TD><TD align=right>59% </TD><TD align=right>21% </TD><TD align=right>3.9 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Dunk</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>.965 </TD><TD align=right>76% </TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>2.0 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Tips</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>.378 </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>.3 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Inside</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>45% </TD><TD align=right>.595 </TD><TD align=right>61% </TD><TD align=right>15% </TD><TD align=right>6.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot clock usage <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Secs.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>0-10</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>39% </TD><TD align=right>.500 </TD><TD align=right>48% </TD><TD align=right>14% </TD><TD align=right>4.6 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>11-15</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>24% </TD><TD align=right>.516 </TD><TD align=right>81% </TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>2.8 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>16-20</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>21% </TD><TD align=right>.419 </TD><TD align=right>72% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>2.1 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>21+</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>16% </TD><TD align=right>.327 </TD><TD align=right>65% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>1.2 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Crunch</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>37% </TD><TD align=right>.379 </TD><TD align=right>70% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>3.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Milsap:

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width="100%" bgColor=#000000><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot selection <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Shot</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Jump</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>65% </TD><TD align=right>.455 </TD><TD align=right>65% </TD><TD align=right>5% </TD><TD align=right>7.6 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Close</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>31% </TD><TD align=right>.667 </TD><TD align=right>74% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>5.4 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Dunk</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>.816 </TD><TD align=right>68% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>.8 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Tips</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>1% </TD><TD align=right>.667 </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>.1 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Inside</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>35% </TD><TD align=right>.683 </TD><TD align=right>72% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>6.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot clock usage <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Secs.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>0-10</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>31% </TD><TD align=right>.613 </TD><TD align=right>67% </TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>5.0 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>11-15</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>25% </TD><TD align=right>.506 </TD><TD align=right>72% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>3.2 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>16-20</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>27% </TD><TD align=right>.530 </TD><TD align=right>71% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>3.8 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>21+</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>17% </TD><TD align=right>.443 </TD><TD align=right>62% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>1.9 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Crunch</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>44% </TD><TD align=right>.497 </TD><TD align=right>68% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>5.7 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Bolded shows that when the play is broken or the shot clock is running down and your finger nails dig into your arm rest out of frustration that Milsap can come through at a really high percentage compared to JJ. If I had to choose I would take Milsap over JJ as long as neither cost us a core piece.

Really?
06-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Are you saying that he is a good shooter? There is two ways of looking at it. Depending upon who is double teaming and how the offense reacts to it. To me its not as simple as if JJ is left alone or given space that he can recieve a pass and dunk it on someone. Thats not whats going to happen on most double teams with Hibbert.

To me its more important that a guy doesn't need the same floor space to operate and more importantly the same time on the shot clock to be effective. Meaning JJ is good if he has a play ran for him in the beginning of the shot clock and the same goes for HIbbert. BOth however are not as effective if that play is broken or in this case a double team forces a pass.


Some friendly stats: Comparing JJ and Milsap

First JJ:

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width="100%" bgColor=#000000><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot selection <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Shot</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Jump</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>55% </TD><TD align=right>.347 </TD><TD align=right>66% </TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>4.4 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Close</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>32% </TD><TD align=right>.517 </TD><TD align=right>59% </TD><TD align=right>21% </TD><TD align=right>3.9 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Dunk</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>.965 </TD><TD align=right>76% </TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>2.0 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Tips</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>.378 </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>.3 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Inside</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>45% </TD><TD align=right>.595 </TD><TD align=right>61% </TD><TD align=right>15% </TD><TD align=right>6.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot clock usage <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Secs.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>0-10</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>39% </TD><TD align=right>.500 </TD><TD align=right>48% </TD><TD align=right>14% </TD><TD align=right>4.6 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>11-15</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>24% </TD><TD align=right>.516 </TD><TD align=right>81% </TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>2.8 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>16-20</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>21% </TD><TD align=right>.419 </TD><TD align=right>72% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>2.1 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>21+</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>16% </TD><TD align=right>.327 </TD><TD align=right>65% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>1.2 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Crunch</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>37% </TD><TD align=right>.379 </TD><TD align=right>70% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>3.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Milsap:

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width="100%" bgColor=#000000><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot selection <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Shot</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Jump</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>65% </TD><TD align=right>.455 </TD><TD align=right>65% </TD><TD align=right>5% </TD><TD align=right>7.6 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Close</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>31% </TD><TD align=right>.667 </TD><TD align=right>74% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>5.4 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Dunk</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>.816 </TD><TD align=right>68% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>.8 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>Tips</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>1% </TD><TD align=right>.667 </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>0% </TD><TD align=right>.1 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Inside</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>35% </TD><TD align=right>.683 </TD><TD align=right>72% </TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>6.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD><TD width="50%"><CENTER>Shot clock usage <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD bgColor=#33cc33 width=50><CENTER>Secs.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>0-10</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>31% </TD><TD align=right>.613 </TD><TD align=right>67% </TD><TD align=right>9% </TD><TD align=right>5.0 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>11-15</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>25% </TD><TD align=right>.506 </TD><TD align=right>72% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>3.2 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>16-20</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>27% </TD><TD align=right>.530 </TD><TD align=right>71% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>3.8 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>21+</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>17% </TD><TD align=right>.443 </TD><TD align=right>62% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>1.9 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>Crunch</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>44% </TD><TD align=right>.497 </TD><TD align=right>68% </TD><TD align=right>6% </TD><TD align=right>5.7 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Bolded shows that when the play is broken or the shot clock is running down and your finger nails dig into your arm rest out of frustration that Milsap can come through at a really high percentage compared to JJ. If I had to choose I would take Milsap over JJ as long as neither cost us a core piece.

One thing I will say is that you have to take into consideration that JJ is only 22 compared to 26 and also has 2 less yrs of experience, I think he has higher potential than Millsaps but I am not sure that he will ever come anywhere close to reaching it..

Nice data comparison by the way.

Gamble1
06-18-2011, 11:02 AM
One thing I will say is that you have to take into consideration that JJ is only 22 compared to 26 and also has 2 less yrs of experience, I think he has higher potential than Millsaps but I am not sure that he will ever come anywhere close to reaching it..

Nice data comparison by the way.
Very true but Milsap is a big time asset and I would love to have him. He also woud be a good veteran presence in a already very young locker room.

mikeyism
06-18-2011, 11:15 AM
Would you?

Hickson and Daniel Gibson for

Hansbrough, Dahntay Jones, #1 pick in 2013

vnzla81
06-18-2011, 11:18 AM
Would you?

Hickson and Daniel Gibson for

Hansbrough, Dahntay Jones, #1 pick in 2013

Why? We already have an undersize shooting guard that likes to shoot threes in price.

Gamble1
06-18-2011, 11:19 AM
Would you?

Hickson and Daniel Gibson for

Hansbrough, Dahntay Jones, #1 pick in 2013
Not a chance.

PR07
06-18-2011, 11:23 AM
I'd probably give up #15 for Hickson. Beyond that, I wouldn't give up any of our core players.

Pacer Fan
06-18-2011, 12:28 PM
I just want to throw this trade out there pertaining to JJ and Ramon...We would have a very exciting draft/season.

Cavs get: Granger, Jones & #42
Pacers get: Hickson, Sessions, #4 & #32

Houston gets: Rush #4 #32
Pacers get: Courtney Lee #14 & #23, #38

Boston gets: Price & Stephenson
Pacers gets: J. Oneal & #25

Pacers give: Granger, Jones, Rush, Price & Stephenson
Pacers would have: Hickson, Sessions, Lee, Oneal, #14, #15, #23, #25, #38

Tom White
06-18-2011, 01:20 PM
Honest to God if you could get Hickson for the # 15 pick you have to take it. Heck if for no other reason than to use him in a package for a better player.

The 15th pick (whoever it is) most likely will not contribute much if anything in the up coming season so if you could get what I consider a decent young veteran (oxymoron I know) at a position that we need up grading at I say take it.

Hell I'd be happy to throw in Rush as well, but then again I'd be happy to throw Rush in to most any trade for that matter.

For some strange reason, seeing Peck post in this thread made me think of a question that I've not seen addressed.

How do either Hickson or Milsap compare to Dale Davis in the areas of defense, rebounding, blocking shots and being a general ENFORCER?

After all, are those not the primary things the Pacers may be looking for in a PF?

I'm not really interested in answers that focus on the scoring capabilities of the different players. Just those abilities listed above.

Oh yeah, how about leadership? Dale may not have been a vocal leader, but his hard work on the court set an example for others on the team.

So, how do you think they compare?

ECKrueger
06-18-2011, 01:20 PM
I'm in this boat too. Let's stockpile talent.

Instead of going after Milsap/Josh Smith/Iggy/Eric Gordon in trades that would lose us one of our core lets get guys on the cheap like Hickson and Mayo who could strengthen what we have without losing anything.

This is what I would prefer to do as well. If we can get one of those guys at a bargain price, sure, but otherwise I would rather take a JJ or OJ type guy and keep the core as you said.


I just want to throw this trade out there pertaining to JJ and Ramon...We would have a very exciting draft/season.

Cavs get: Granger, Jones & #42
Pacers get: Hickson, Sessions, #4 & #32

Houston gets: Rush #4 #32
Pacers get: Courtney Lee #14 & #23, #38

Boston gets: Price & Stephenson
Pacers gets: J. Oneal & #25

Pacers give: Granger, Jones, Rush, Price & Stephenson
Pacers would have: Hickson, Sessions, Lee, Oneal, #14, #15, #23, #25, #38

Wow, that would be one of the most active offseasons ever I think. While it would be nice to have all those picks, I would tweak the CLE deal some to avoid losing Granger. I would not give him up for a bunch of picks in this years draft unless one was a top 2 pick.

BornReady
06-18-2011, 01:35 PM
I just want to throw this trade out there pertaining to JJ and Ramon...We would have a very exciting draft/season.

Cavs get: Granger, Jones & #42
Pacers get: Hickson, Sessions, #4 & #32

Houston gets: Rush #4 #32
Pacers get: Courtney Lee #14 & #23, #38

Boston gets: Price & Stephenson
Pacers gets: J. Oneal & #25

Pacers give: Granger, Jones, Rush, Price & Stephenson
Pacers would have: Hickson, Sessions, Lee, Oneal, #14, #15, #23, #25, #38

haha wow, that's a crazy trade. I have no idea what I think about it :D

cdash
06-18-2011, 01:43 PM
Just nitpicking....but if you don't want Milsap...then aren't you arguing against getting him? ;)

Yeah, noticed that after I posted. Didn't care enough to change it. Was hoping no one would catch it :laugh:

Pacer Fan
06-18-2011, 07:38 PM
For some strange reason, seeing Peck post in this thread made me think of a question that I've not seen addressed.

How do either Hickson or Milsap compare to Dale Davis in the areas of defense, rebounding, blocking shots and being a general ENFORCER?

After all, are those not the primary things the Pacers may be looking for in a PF?

I'm not really interested in answers that focus on the scoring capabilities of the different players. Just those abilities listed above.

Oh yeah, how about leadership? Dale may not have been a vocal leader, but his hard work on the court set an example for others on the team.

So, how do you think they compare?

As I do agree with you...I have one question for you.
Is there a PF in the NBA that is the Man / Player of Dale Davis?
I think you are so right, yet unfair on your questioning.
The last time I checked there isn't anyone currently in the NBA with the Man / Player Attributes to even compare to Davis. IMO

Tom White
06-18-2011, 08:14 PM
As I do agree with you...I have one question for you.
Is there a PF in the NBA that is the Man / Player of Dale Davis?
I think you are so right, yet unfair on your questioning.
The last time I checked there isn't anyone currently in the NBA with the Man / Player Attributes to even compare to Davis. IMO

Thanks......I think. :laugh:

The reason for the question is that I really have not watched many of Utah's or the Cav's games for the last few years. So I don't have much of an idea about these players other than what the stats say. Of course the stats don't tell the entire story on a player, so that is why I'm asking for a comparison to a player that I did watch a lot, for a number of years.

Things like league pass are really low on my "must have" list. To busy with work and property and family and such, so I can't see taking the time to watch every team in the league very much. I try to make time for the Pacers games, but that's about it.

Actually, now that I think about it, the closest I've seen to Dale's style of play recently was the good, hard "playoff fouls" Foster landed on some of the Bulls. He really started to get that "Don't you be coming into MY lane" mentality going. That was enjoyable.

Pacer Fan
06-18-2011, 09:03 PM
Thanks......I think. :laugh:

The reason for the question is that I really have not watched many of Utah's or the Cav's games for the last few years. So I don't have much of an idea about these players other than what the stats say. Of course the stats don't tell the entire story on a player, so that is why I'm asking for a comparison to a player that I did watch a lot, for a number of years.

Things like league pass are really low on my "must have" list. To busy with work and property and family and such, so I can't see taking the time to watch every team in the league very much. I try to make time for the Pacers games, but that's about it.

Actually, now that I think about it, the closest I've seen to Dale's style of play recently was the good, hard "playoff fouls" Foster landed on some of the Bulls. He really started to get that "Don't you be coming into MY lane" mentality going. That was enjoyable.

The only PF"s I would even put a comparison to DD defense is the folowing:
Kevin Garnett - old
Tim Duncan - old
Marcus Camby - old
LaMarcus Aldridge is soft but seems to be getting there.
Greg Monroe probably will be that guy, Which I would love to have more then any other Power Forward in the league - huge upside.

DD was the ultimate of the traditional PF and the game seems to be getting away from that.

Frostwolf
06-18-2011, 09:08 PM
I just want to throw this trade out there pertaining to JJ and Ramon...We would have a very exciting draft/season.

Cavs get: Granger, Jones & #42
Pacers get: Hickson, Sessions, #4 & #32

Houston gets: Rush #4 #32
Pacers get: Courtney Lee #14 & #23, #38

Boston gets: Price & Stephenson
Pacers gets: J. Oneal & #25

Pacers give: Granger, Jones, Rush, Price & Stephenson
Pacers would have: Hickson, Sessions, Lee, Oneal, #14, #15, #23, #25, #38

i'm sorry pacer fan, but that's horrible for us. granger and three role players for four role players and a bunch of middling picks... yeah ok.

i really don't believe the hickson hype, he's very inconsistent, not a good defender, and if varejao was playing he'd have nowhere near the amount of rebounds he got last season. someone brought up rebounding numbers, well millsap played with al jefferson, AK47 and favors, all who are good rebounders, while jj played with......... antawn jamison?

Pacer Fan
06-18-2011, 09:14 PM
i'm sorry pacer fan, but that's horrible for us. granger and three role players for four role players and a bunch of middling picks... yeah ok.

i really don't believe the hickson hype, he's very inconsistent, not a good defender, and if varejao was playing he'd have nowhere near the amount of rebounds he got last season. someone brought up rebounding numbers, well millsap played with al jefferson, AK47 and favors, all who are good rebounders, while jj played with......... antawn jamison?

Its all good, everyone has their own opinion. Personally, I don't think that Cavs would do it anyways. I woke up today and this trade combo was in my mind, so I put it on here. :)

troyc11a
06-18-2011, 09:20 PM
i'm sorry pacer fan, but that's horrible for us. granger and three role players for four role players and a bunch of middling picks... yeah ok.

i really don't believe the hickson hype, he's very inconsistent, not a good defender, and if varejao was playing he'd have nowhere near the amount of rebounds he got last season. someone brought up rebounding numbers, well millsap played with al jefferson, AK47 and favors, all who are good rebounders, while jj played with......... antawn jamison?

Hickson's hype? The kid is 22 y/o. How many of us were at our professional peak at 22?

BornReady
06-18-2011, 09:23 PM
Hickson's hype? The kid is 22 y/o. How many of us were at our professional peak at 22?

I'm 22! Does that mean I'm going to become more professional? yayyy!!! ^________^ (haha ok sorry I had to do that)

Tom White
06-18-2011, 09:33 PM
I'm 22! Does that mean I'm going to become more professional? yayyy!!! ^________^ (haha ok sorry I had to do that)

I'm pretty sure you've already peaked and are on the fast track downhill.
Sorry to have to be the one to break it to you.

:D

Frostwolf
06-19-2011, 01:44 AM
Hickson's hype? The kid is 22 y/o. How many of us were at our professional peak at 22?

i understand. but what i'm saying is that his numbers (which most people here seem to be citing as his having potential to be better than millsap) aren't indicative of his current or future level. from what i have watched, hickson isn't really that great, nor has he regularly shown flashes of brilliance. i believe that in this case, inflation of numbers by playing on a horrible team really does have some consideration. i think he's only slightly better than tyler on the offensive end, while defensively they're pretty much the same (not that great).

furthermore, there are plenty of players who have seen production fall off (see oj mayo) or level out (see emeka okafor) from the early years of their careers. while being 22 does often mean you can improve, it certainly doesn't guarantee improvement.

however, as peck said, if we can get him for cheap (role player or two + our pick) then i'm all for getting him.