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PacersFan1991
06-12-2011, 11:08 PM
How big of a hit did it take in this finals?

BornReady
06-12-2011, 11:10 PM
who cares. HE LOST!!! :D :D :D :D :D

PacersFan1991
06-12-2011, 11:11 PM
who cares. HE LOST!!! :D :D :D :D :D

HAHA. Perfect.

quinnthology
06-12-2011, 11:15 PM
He's 26 and he's been to two Finals, one of which was his first year on a new team. I think he'll be alright.

NapTonius Monk
06-12-2011, 11:16 PM
I think it reinforced a lot of the negatives. Lebron is a sous chef at best. D-Wade is the head chef. This should put an end to the LBJ v. MJ debate.

Ozwalt72
06-12-2011, 11:18 PM
Same hit Joel Anthony's legacy took.

SMosley21
06-12-2011, 11:18 PM
He's 26 and he's been to two Finals, one of which was his first year on a new team. I think he'll be alright.

He's played a total of 10 NBA Finals games in his career. His record is 2-8, and his averages are significantly worse than his regular season stats.

PacerPenguins
06-12-2011, 11:19 PM
I think it reinforced a lot of the negatives. Lebron is a sous chef at best. D-Wade is the head chef. This should put an end to the LBJ v. MJ debate.

ok i still think lebron is jordan like but i fking hate ppl that use jordans rings as their only escuse to y jordan is better..... Bill Russell has 11 so is he better than jordan?

idioteque
06-12-2011, 11:21 PM
Think about this before you freak out: Is Lebron James, in one way, the Peyton Manning of the NBA?

Dr. Hibbert
06-12-2011, 11:21 PM
People need to accept that LeBron will never be as revered as MJ. LeBron's best bet, IMO, is just to accept the challenge to get back the Finals, take a business-like approach, stay the hell out of the media and get his personal life in check.

I'd say people wouldn't hate LeBron if he wasn't so self-hyped, but I heard all of the same things about Peyton Manning prior to the Colts' 06 championship (and still hear things afterward.) People are going to hate. Best you can do is conduct yourself like a professional and not give them any more reason than necessary to distract you or your team.

Dr. Hibbert
06-12-2011, 11:21 PM
Think about this before you freak out: Is Lebron James, in one way, the Peyton Manning of the NBA?

No. Peyton Manning won a championship. I've heard similar things about both, but Peyton has the ring. LeBron does not.

Trophy
06-12-2011, 11:23 PM
He better shut the hell up already and realize he is NOT a winner.

At this point, he seems like a championship cancer.

He's a joke with the things he says and does.

Cactus Jax
06-12-2011, 11:25 PM
Payton Manning is more like Dirk Nowitzki than Lebron James imo.

Peck
06-12-2011, 11:25 PM
He better shut the hell up already and realize he is NOT a winner.

At this point, he seems like a championship cancer.

He's a joke with the things he says and does.

Hard to say he's not a winner when he has never been on a losing team.

Maybe he's not a champion, but to say not a winner IMO would not be accurate.

OrganizedConfusion
06-12-2011, 11:26 PM
Since coming to the Heat it seems he has lost that extra gear a star needs to take over in clutch situations. Yeah he made the Finals but it was a more impressive feat when he did it in 2007. Is it just me or is he only a dangerous scorer when he is hitting from 3 nowadays?

Edit: Also, he only shot 20 free throws the entire series. Where is the aggression?

LA_Confidential
06-12-2011, 11:26 PM
I Wonder what this guy thinks of LeBron's Legacy.

http://www.weallscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dan-Gilbert.jpg

Young
06-12-2011, 11:27 PM
I'll wait to judge his legacy until he is at least towards the end of his prime. He is just entering it now.

cdash
06-12-2011, 11:27 PM
No. Peyton Manning won a championship. I've heard similar things about both, but Peyton has the ring. LeBron does not.

He doesn't yet. He's only 26 and has more than enough to time win multiple titles.

The Heat have some problems. They need a better center, they need a better point guard, and they have alpha dog issues. Wade is the obvious choice, but I can't help but feel like these guys don't want to step on each other's toes when the game is on the line. That will change in time. They will get better teammates. Lord knows they will get a better coach. The Heat aren't done, LeBron isn't done, the book hasn't been written on either of them. The only thing I think that was reinforced is that LeBron just doesn't have that killer instinct and will to win that makes great champions like Jordan and Kobe.

Trophy
06-12-2011, 11:29 PM
Hard to say he's not a winner when he has never been on a losing team.

Maybe he's not a champion, but to say not a winner IMO would not be accurate.

As in championships, he's not a winner or a champion would be better wording.

Dr. Hibbert
06-12-2011, 11:29 PM
He doesn't yet. He's only 26 and has more than enough to time win multiple titles.

The Heat have some problems. They need a better center, they need a better point guard, and they have alpha dog issues. Wade is the obvious choice, but I can't help but feel like these guys don't want to step on each other's toes when the game is on the line. That will change in time. They will get better teammates. Lord knows they will get a better coach. The Heat aren't done, LeBron isn't done, the book hasn't been written on either of them. The only thing I think that was reinforced is that LeBron just doesn't have that killer instinct and will to win that makes great champions like Jordan and Kobe.

Didn't say they don't have a chance. Just said it's inaccurate to compare LeBron with Peyton. Peyton is a champion. LeBron is not.

presto123
06-12-2011, 11:31 PM
Yeah can we just quit with all the Jordan comparisons now. Jordan would have put the team on his back in the 4th quarter and got the win. I don't think Lebron is even that close to MJ at this point.

NapTonius Monk
06-12-2011, 11:32 PM
i fking hate ppl that use jordans rings as their only escuse to y jordan is better..... Bill Russell has 11 so is he better than jordan?How many more reasons do you need? And I'd say there's an argument to be made for a Jordan/Russell debate. Regardless, taking the rings of it, Jordan was at his best in the 4th. You knew he was coming. He never shied away. Maybe Lebron gets there one day. But did you honestly get a sense that Lebron was lurking for a 4th qtr surge tonight? I thought maybe Wade might do so, but not Lebron. Oh, and Jordan has rings.

Sookie
06-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Lebron's legacy? As what?

Best ever? Yea, that went away the second he joined Wade's team. (Not debating whether that's fair or accurate, just stating that it's the perception.)

Pretty much everything else is up in the air still.

aero
06-12-2011, 11:32 PM
ill just leave this here...

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9563/yyjhn6y.png

cdash
06-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Didn't say they don't have a chance. Just said it's inaccurate to compare LeBron with Peyton. Peyton is a champion. LeBron is not.

Okay, it's inaccurate to compare LeBron with Brian Cardinal. Cardinal is a champion, LeBron is not. That argument doesn't really work. There are parallels to be made between Peyton earlier in his career and LeBron at this point in his career. When LeBron is 33 and on the backend of his career, will we still be talking about him the same way? Maybe, but I think he will have a title or two by then.

croz24
06-12-2011, 11:32 PM
1 player can mean everything in the nba. the nfl is much much more of a team sport with regards to a player's impact on the game. dumb to compare a player's impact in those two sports.

BlueNGold
06-12-2011, 11:33 PM
One thing is clear. Michael Jordan would be embarrassed to have this type of showing. I would say this reduced LeBron's legacy a bit. He will need to win the championship and play great down the stretch just to meet expectations. Let's just say he has his work cut out if he expects to be compared anytime soon with Air Jordan.

PR07
06-12-2011, 11:35 PM
It'll hurt it in that the Heat didn't win, and he never seemed to take any game of the series over which I think everyone expected. However, LBJ has a lot of basketball left to played, and he could easily win 3 titles in a row, and everyone would be silenced. It's not like this guy is playing on his last leg.

BlueNGold
06-12-2011, 11:41 PM
It'll hurt it in that the Heat didn't win, and he never seemed to take any game of the series over which I think everyone expected. However, LBJ has a lot of basketball left to played, and he could easily win 3 titles in a row, and everyone would be silenced. It's not like this guy is playing on his last leg.

He will be a great player for another decade probably. So, yes, he has more than enough time to redeem himself. However, just getting to the NBA finals is not going to be that easy. There will be other extremely good teams that come along...and I stress the word team here.

...so, above all else, the Heat need to learn how to play as a team. This will require that he have a solid supporting cast in addition to DWade and Bosh staying healthy. None of this is guaranteed and losing just one of those players takes a huge chunk out of their chances.

woowoo
06-12-2011, 11:44 PM
]Payton Manning is more like Dirk Nowitzki than Lebron James imo.[/B]

Truth, LeFraud is a spineless child... Peyton is 100% guts and class.

Moses
06-12-2011, 11:45 PM
This shouldn't hurt him that bad in the long run..he's still got a lot of basketball left to play. I'm still shocked at how many jump shots he took this series.

woowoo
06-12-2011, 11:48 PM
]He will be a great player for another decade [/B]probably. So, yes, he has more than enough time to redeem himself. However, just getting to the NBA finals is not going to be that easy. There will be other extremely good teams that come along...and I stress the word team here.

...so, above all else, the Heat need to learn how to play as a team. This will require that he have a solid supporting cast in addition to DWade and Bosh staying healthy. None of this is guaranteed and losing just one of those players takes a huge chunk out of their chances.

I don't know about that, he has a G's game and no post game. He is a big man and his body will force him to slow down. Can he take his game down low? Eventually he will be forced to.

You don't see many 30 year old 6"9" 270 lb G's. Before Magic retired the first time he had to adjust his game as he got older.

PacersFan1991
06-12-2011, 11:49 PM
From Dan Gilbert's Twitter

Congrats to Mark C.&entire Mavs org. Mavs NEVER stopped & now entire franchise gets rings. Old Lesson for all:There are NO SHORTCUTS. NONE.

Basketball Fan
06-12-2011, 11:55 PM
The knee jerk overreaction will be: He's a loser and will never win anything for the rest of his career he's this generation's Karl Malone.

However he has plenty of years left and while there are no guarantees he has time to at least try and get it done.

I do think he's overrated(always thought that) he's an athletic freak but unless he develops his game he'll fall off as soon as his athleticism does. He's also lacks a killer instinct.

Its like Shaq in a way physically dominant but yet lacks the edge to get it done.

They both care more about being popular than being champions.

IndySDExport
06-13-2011, 12:06 AM
Maybe one difference between Peyton and Lebron. Peyton remains loyal to the team that drafted him.



Okay, it's inaccurate to compare LeBron with Brian Cardinal. Cardinal is a champion, LeBron is not. That argument doesn't really work. There are parallels to be made between Peyton earlier in his career and LeBron at this point in his career. When LeBron is 33 and on the backend of his career, will we still be talking about him the same way? Maybe, but I think he will have a title or two by then.

Hicks
06-13-2011, 12:07 AM
1 player can mean everything in the nba. the nfl is much much more of a team sport with regards to a player's impact on the game. dumb to compare a player's impact in those two sports.

It's not dumb to compare them, but it's very questionable to equate them.

Hicks
06-13-2011, 12:09 AM
One thing is clear. Michael Jordan would be embarrassed to have this type of showing. I would say this reduced LeBron's legacy a bit. He will need to win the championship and play great down the stretch just to meet expectations. Let's just say he has his work cut out if he expects to be compared anytime soon with Air Jordan.

God help the rest of the league if LeBron develops a fire in his belly remotely reminiscent to the fire in Jordan's or Kobe's. I'm not convinced he has that. It's the one thing he just doesn't seem to have. More talent than Jordan and Kobe, but not the fire, not the anger, not the same kind of will. He's damned good even without it, but I don't see that same flame.

Basketball Fan
06-13-2011, 12:17 AM
Maybe one difference between Peyton and Lebron. Peyton remains loyal to the team that drafted him.

Only because they built a championship contender around him.

If not Manning would've bolted to he just wouldn't have hosted a decision special to do so.

GrangerRanger
06-13-2011, 12:25 AM
God help the rest of the league if LeBron develops a fire in his belly remotely reminiscent to the fire in Jordan's or Kobe's. I'm not convinced he has that. It's the one thing he just doesn't seem to have. More talent than Jordan and Kobe, but not the fire, not the anger, not the same kind of will. He's damned good even without it, but I don't see that same flame.

Saying Lebron has more "talent" than Kobe and Jordan is a massive gross overstatement. Lebron James has more physical ability than either, but talent? Fundamentals, shooting ability, ability to get to the rim based on ball handling skills and not sheer strength and speed, not being stiff and upright in defensive stance (and being bailed out when your man blows by you because of the athletic ability), ability to use your "talent" when it counts?

Lebron isn't an other world talent. He's an other world athlete. Confusing athleticism with pure talent is beyond my comprehension.

Sookie
06-13-2011, 12:37 AM
Saying Lebron has more "talent" than Kobe and Jordan is a massive gross overstatement. Lebron James has more physical ability than either, but talent? Fundamentals, shooting ability, ability to get to the rim based on ball handling skills and not sheer strength and speed, not being stiff and upright in defensive stance (and being bailed out when your man blows by you because of the athletic ability), ability to use your "talent" when it counts?

Lebron isn't an other world talent. He's an other world athlete. Confusing athleticism with pure talent is beyond my comprehension.

Agree.

Lebron is going to have a problem when his athleticism deteriorates, unless he completely changes up his game.

He should start with a post up game.

graphic-er
06-13-2011, 12:38 AM
I actually think Lebron will get better with age. Not necessarily average more pts or anything like that, but he will be a much more savvy player. He relies too much on his athleticism right now, that he isn't able to make the best play but the only the most athletic play. Tonight there was a possession where Barea ended up on Lebron after a switch and Lebron started backing him down in the post, and he foolishly lifted his elbow up and shoved him back not by the force of his arm but by the force of his body. The Savvy player in that situation would have waited for the help defense and spun baseline over the smaller player for an easy dunk.

Sollozzo
06-13-2011, 12:39 AM
The only thing that's going to elevate Lebron's legacy at this point is rings. Nothing else matters at all. Until the Heat win a championship with Lebron playing great in the Finals, these same things are going to be said for a long time.

Who cares about Jordan, because at this point Lebron will struggle to touch Kobe's decorated career. Lebron will be in his 9th season next year and will turn 27. He has 2 or 3 years left of his physical prime. Everything after 30 is downhill for your body, especially when you came into the NBA at 18.

What made Jordan and Kobe so great is how they were able to remake their offensive games as they got older. They developed post games and perfected moves centered around their midrange jumper (pivots, turn-arounds etc). So much of Lebron's game revolves around his physical explosiveness and I'm not sure he can be near as good as Kobe or Jordan were in their 30's.

GrangerRanger
06-13-2011, 12:39 AM
And not to sound like a jack ***, Hicks. I agree with the jest of what you're saying. He lacks the fire. But to say he's on a similar talent plateau or even exceeding those guys is ridiculous in my book. Lebron James is a product of his athleticism.

Kstat
06-13-2011, 12:56 AM
He's high on talent. What he lacks is skill. He can't shoot consistently, and he's a **** poor post player for his size.

Sollozzo
06-13-2011, 12:57 AM
What's so perplexing is that he's had plenty of fire in the past. Game 5 against Detroit in 07 is without a doubt one of the best individual performances in league history. He went toe to toe with Pierce and scored 45 points in game 7 of the 08 semis when the Celtics were an absolute superior team to the Cavs. He had an incredible series against Orlando in 09, but the Magic were just better when that deadly inside-out attack they had going. It wasn't until game 5 against Boston last year that one would have even thought of questioning his "fire." And you could even sorta right that off as him just saying "screw it, I'm done with this place", though that doesn't excuse it.

But his performance in these Finals was just completely perplexing. Didn't seem to kick it up an extra notch at all. That will stick with him for a long time.

pizza guy
06-13-2011, 01:06 AM
Michael Jordan's second NBA Finals Appearance
MIN 42.3
FG% 52.6
3pt% 42.9
FT% 89.1
AST 6.5
RBD 4.8
PPG 35.8

LeBron's Second NBA Finals Appearance
MIN
FG% lower
3pt% lower
FT% lower
AST higher
RBD higher
PPG lower

LeBron's legacy obviously isn't fully established yet. It's entirely possible that he takes the John Elway path to all-time greatness, and doesn't win until just before he retires. Those last two years for Elway changed him from "another Marino" into "another Montana" in a lot of eyes. LeBron could do the same thing.

But, what if he doesn't? What if he becomes the new Karl Malone? Or worse, he doesn't even get back to the Finals. I know the odds are in his favor to win one or two, but it ain't easy, and this is all hypothetical anyways, so play along.

If LeBron retires and this was his last Finals appearance, his legacy will be worth only slightly more than a used stamp. If "King James," "The Chosen One," or whatever other obnoxious nickname he goes by, never actually wins a ring, it won't be like Reggie, Charles, or Karl never winning one. Those guys worked, toiled, tried, and had their hearts broken. LeBron has been given this league. Stern wants LeBron to win. The media wants LeBron to win. Most importantly, LeBron has every physical gift needed to win an NBA Title.

If he can't pull it off, no one will feel sorry for him. He will be the one getting blamed. "Why couldn't LeBron ever win a ring?" "What was wrong with LeBron James?" "Who died and made him 'King'?" LeBron won't get the sympathy, he's too good to get the sympathy. And this team that he orchestrated in Miami has been anointed by all to be the next great dynasty, so there are no excuses.

LeBron needs to take a page from Kobe's book, and learn how to retool his game year in and year out to always have that edge. LeBron is missing that fire. He has always had basketball come to him, and maybe he'll actually have to earn it in the grown-up's league, because everyone else there is earning it, and they won't just give it to him.

Spoelstra will be gone because someone has to be a scapegoat for LeBron. All the role players are likely to be exchanged for different role players. Wade, LeBron, and Bosh will all take extravagantly luxurious vacations this summer, and come back expecting the Title to fall in their laps (I hate lumping DWade in like that, because I used to like him, but alas). I'm guessing Riley steps in and coaches.

Of course, in the real world, we all know (like we "knew" they'd win this year) that they will win at least one Title before it's all said and done. I'm just glad that it wasn't this year. I loved seeing a real team, that has earned its stripes, with a professional, veteran coach and hard working players beat this group of arrogant "superstars" on the biggest stage.

quinnthology
06-13-2011, 01:52 AM
I Wonder what this guy thinks of LeBron's Legacy.

http://www.weallscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dan-Gilbert.jpg

Child molester

Thoreau87
06-13-2011, 02:05 AM
I know it's our society/culture, but nonetheless it frustrates me when we as fans/media put those rare star players (Lebron) in another realm of context. At the end of the day, professional athletes are only human. It should come as no shock a team of savvy vets, that beat the dog poop out of the defending champs, also beat a team that relies heavily (understatement) on 3 mid-twenties players who're in the finals in their first season together.

The Heat will learn from this. They were two 4th quarter collapses away from a decisive championship run. It's scary to imagine how great the Heat can potentially be 4 years from now. Of course the only thing scarier is Paul George and the Pacers :fingerscr

Peck
06-13-2011, 02:09 AM
I dislike LeBron as much as the next guy but I'm not willing to say this will impact his legacy at all.

Win the title next season and this year will be forgotten, win a couple of titles over the next few years and this year will probably actually improve his legacy because they will say this was what it took to start the fire in him.

Don't get me wrong I hope he crashes and burns but it's way to early to write him off just like it was way to early to call him better than the best.

Roaming Gnome
06-13-2011, 07:00 AM
Well, if LeBron's career ended today... In my mind his legacy is right up there with rolling around in one of my first cars:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--dqjFLRii6s/Tb1kIO8ogRI/AAAAAAAAAAc/2j2xYhOhBDU/s1600/amc+gremlin.jpg
An AMC Gremlin!

Heisenberg
06-13-2011, 07:20 AM
What's so perplexing is that he's had plenty of fire in the past. Game 5 against Detroit in 07 is without a doubt one of the best individual performances in league history. He went toe to toe with Pierce and scored 45 points in game 7 of the 08 semis when the Celtics were an absolute superior team to the Cavs. He had an incredible series against Orlando in 09, but the Magic were just better when that deadly inside-out attack they had going. It wasn't until game 5 against Boston last year that one would have even thought of questioning his "fire." And you could even sorta right that off as him just saying "screw it, I'm done with this place", though that doesn't excuse it.

But his performance in these Finals was just completely perplexing. Didn't seem to kick it up an extra notch at all. That will stick with him for a long time.It has been weird, it's almost like you have to question if something happened off the floor, and no I don't mean the Delonte West stuff. I just remember watching him beat Detroit by himself and thinking he'd "arrived" y'know, the guy would never be stopped again, fistfuls of rings. But he repeatedly stops himself, it's weird.

Maybe he started hanging with a different crew, got jaded and went "Hollywood," just...I dunno.

I'm not absolving Lebron of bringing a lot of the criticism on himself, the "Check my stats" shirts, obviously The Decision, all that. But if Jordan came up in the internet age he'd have been branded a scumbag pretty quickly. All we got were Nike and NBA polished commercials and branding, at worst we knew he liked to gamble.

NapTonius Monk
06-13-2011, 08:03 AM
Agree.

Lebron is going to have a problem when his athleticism deteriorates, unless he completely changes up his game.

He should start with a post up game.I disagree with this. Lebron is a good passer and decent enough shooter. I think he will be able to compensate as his athleticism decreases. I think Lebron's biggest problem is a lack of killer instinct.

D-BONE
06-13-2011, 08:16 AM
LeBron (and by extension the rest of the big 3) needs to learn to focus on professionalism and commitment to what it takes to win a championship.

They need to eliminate all the extraneous, superficial BS, such as the Decision, their official "coming out" party to the Miami fans/media, the whole idiotic thing with the Dirk sickness mocking. A little respect, please.

Certainly, a better surrounding cast and coach wouldn't hurt. But, I'm convinced their priorities/focus are in the wrong place, too.

PR07
06-13-2011, 08:55 AM
I disagree with this. Lebron is a good passer and decent enough shooter. I think he will be able to compensate as his athleticism decreases. I think Lebron's biggest problem is a lack of killer instinct.

This. If MJ and Kobe changed their games as they aged? Why can't LeBron? MJ became a much better post up player as his career progressed, ditto for Kobe. I don't get this premise that LeBron "won't be able to adapt because he relies on athleticism". Were MJ and Kobe not high flyers went they entered the league?

If you don't believe this, grab a copy of NBA 2k11 and play with '90 Jordan and '96 Jordan, and I guarantee you'll see a noticeable difference in shooting ability, quickness, and athletic ability from that transition.

LeBron's biggest instinct is will and passiveness. MJ willed his team to victories, and Kobe always had the alpha-dog mentality. While he's not Brandon Rush, there were times that LeBron simply needed to take it over...and while it would've been one thing had he tried and failed. For most of the Finals, it seemed he never even tried.

Rogco
06-13-2011, 08:59 AM
LeBron's legacy is still to be decided. He's young, incredibly talented and willing to chase a ring. Still, this series could be the first step towards LeBron being labelled a failure. Win a ring next year and it doesn't matter.

Anyone check out his plus/minus from the series? I know it's a dubious stat, but for a superstar it should be more reflective than a bit role player. Here's LeBron's plus/minus during the series:

+9
-5
+1
-6
-13
-24

It looks like it just got worse as his confidence waned and his girlfriend (potentially??) met other friends.

Reggie4Three
06-13-2011, 09:34 AM
Only because they built a championship contender around him.

If not Manning would've bolted to he just wouldn't have hosted a decision special to do so.

I'm not sure how the Cavs weren't a contender. They did play in an NBA Finals and another ECF. Just because he couldn't win doesn't mean they didn't contend.

PacerHound
06-13-2011, 09:50 AM
If it was not for the youth factor there are a lot of comments made on PD about how great Lebron is that would never be made by an older person. I just went to the web site and checked on the 50 greatest of all time to see who all was on it. I have seen them all play except for maybe two or three and I can tell you right now Lebron does not yet belong on that list. He has yet to prove he is the best in the present NBA. In fact, my opinion is he is only the second best on his team let alone the entire league.

That said time is on his side so who can say? He has the talent and athleticism but it takes more than just that. Does he have the drive seems to me to be the biggest question.

Dr. Hibbert
06-13-2011, 10:26 AM
So I just saw LeBron's post-game press conference. Yeah, I think he's effectively crapping on his legacy. Or us commonfolk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ6UIoyRhsI).

Since86
06-13-2011, 10:27 AM
I don't understand how anyone can say it hasn't tarnished his legacy at all.

LeBron was touted as "The Chosen One" and "King James" before he ever stepped foot on a NBA court, or shortly there after. He was supposed to give MJ a running for GOAT.

Uh, he's definitely not in that discussion anymore. I don't know how that isn't tarnishing his legacy, because he has fell flat on his face with the expectations everyone (the media) had for him.

Regardless if you think it's fair or not, those are the expectations that he put on himself by getting KING JAMES tattoo'd across his back.

He gave himself the title and when push came down to shove, he folded like a cheap chair.

Hicks
06-13-2011, 10:34 AM
And not to sound like a jack ***, Hicks. I agree with the jest of what you're saying. He lacks the fire. But to say he's on a similar talent plateau or even exceeding those guys is ridiculous in my book. Lebron James is a product of his athleticism.

I think the rub is you don't think of the word "talent" the same way that I do.

I generally think of talent as being what comes more easily to you that doesn't necessarily come so easily to most other people; natural ability; aptitude. Size, strength, speed, intelligence, coordination, leaping ability, mental and physical reaction time, peripheral vision, that kind of thing, which LeBron has a ridiculous amount of, hence my comment about his talent.

Then I look at skills, which you could also describe as talents, though not necessarily natural ones; you generally have to work hard to develop skills, though your natural talent may make it easier for you than others to do that. Shooting, passing, dribbling/driving, post up game, knowing the best angles to take on each side of the floor, footwork, stance, that kind of thing.

So consider my comment about talent to read as natural ability or aptitude.

He's certainly not the most skilled player, though he of course has skills, too.

Hicks
06-13-2011, 10:41 AM
What's so perplexing is that he's had plenty of fire in the past. Game 5 against Detroit in 07 is without a doubt one of the best individual performances in league history. He went toe to toe with Pierce and scored 45 points in game 7 of the 08 semis when the Celtics were an absolute superior team to the Cavs. He had an incredible series against Orlando in 09, but the Magic were just better when that deadly inside-out attack they had going. It wasn't until game 5 against Boston last year that one would have even thought of questioning his "fire." And you could even sorta right that off as him just saying "screw it, I'm done with this place", though that doesn't excuse it.

But his performance in these Finals was just completely perplexing. Didn't seem to kick it up an extra notch at all. That will stick with him for a long time.

Maybe I need to go back and watch those games. I recall him having more fire than he seems to have right now, but I never recall him having that same intensity of Jordan or Kobe. Those guys were strikingly engaged in 'killing' their opponents.

Hicks
06-13-2011, 10:41 AM
Child molester

Do I even want to ask?

Hicks
06-13-2011, 10:51 AM
As for LeBron beyond his basketball ability, the real answer is who cares, but if I'm going to discuss it, I think he asks for a lot of the crap he gets, even though there's obviously people out there that take that much farther than I ever would.

You could argue that most or all NBA players are prima donnas to a certain extent, and you'd usually be right if I had to guess, but I think there's a gradient scale in play here, and "King James" works awfully hard sometimes at being at the far end of it.

Obviously that doesn't offend some people, but others it might and does, and they're not wrong for feeling that way any more than you're not wrong for it not bothering you at all. We're people. That means a variety of opinions, points of view, beliefs, and values, so it's largely fruitless to argue about this as if you're going to somehow "win" these discussions. You can't win. You can only express your POV and move on.

Hicks
06-13-2011, 10:57 AM
I think the rub is you don't think of the word "talent" the same way that I do.

I generally think of talent as being what comes more easily to you that doesn't necessarily come so easily to most other people; natural ability; aptitude. Size, strength, speed, intelligence, coordination, leaping ability, mental and physical reaction time, peripheral vision, that kind of thing, which LeBron has a ridiculous amount of, hence my comment about his talent.

Then I look at skills, which you could also describe as talents, though not necessarily natural ones; you generally have to work hard to develop skills, though your natural talent may make it easier for you than others to do that. Shooting, passing, dribbling/driving, post up game, knowing the best angles to take on each side of the floor, footwork, stance, that kind of thing.

So consider my comment about talent to read as natural ability or aptitude.

He's certainly not the most skilled player, though he of course has skills, too.

Now I've got myself wondering who I consider to be the most skilled player currently in the NBA.

Is there anything Kobe Bryant can't do other than what his body no longer allows?

Kid Minneapolis
06-13-2011, 11:08 AM
LeBron is 26. I think people forget he came straight from high school. He might not be the most likable guy in the world, but he has a long time. There's many... many legends in sports who didn't win rings until later in their career, including Michael Jordan (28) and Peyton Manning (30) and throw Dirk Nowitzki in there, too (32). All of those guys heard the same crap before they won a ring: "soft, choke, can't win when it matters, blah blah blah".

I firmly believe LeBron will win a ring or two when it's all said and done.

mildlysane
06-13-2011, 11:25 AM
Unless my eyes were lying to me, I don't even think LeBron was the best player on his own team. I think that Wade may actually be a little better. Maybe that changes next year, but I doubt it.

Pacersalltheway10
06-13-2011, 11:32 AM
If Lebron wasn't such an airhead, Id root for him like I do Kevin Durant.

Dr. Hibbert
06-13-2011, 11:39 AM
Unless my eyes were lying to me, I don't even think LeBron was the best player on his own team. I think that Wade may actually be a little better. Maybe that changes next year, but I doubt it.

They weren't. He is. It won't.

Dr. Hibbert
06-13-2011, 11:40 AM
So I just saw LeBron's post-game press conference. Yeah, I think he's effectively crapping on his legacy. Or us commonfolk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ6UIoyRhsI).

No reaction from the PD commonfolk? Or are you all the eccentric billionaires I imagine, getting caviar stains on your keyboards and all?

mattie
06-13-2011, 11:47 AM
Now I've got myself wondering who I consider to be the most skilled player currently in the NBA.

Is there anything Kobe Bryant can't do other than what his body no longer allows?

Carmelo Anthony can do anything.

Basketball Fan
06-13-2011, 12:03 PM
I don't understand how anyone can say it hasn't tarnished his legacy at all.

LeBron was touted as "The Chosen One" and "King James" before he ever stepped foot on a NBA court, or shortly there after. He was supposed to give MJ a running for GOAT.

Uh, he's definitely not in that discussion anymore. I don't know how that isn't tarnishing his legacy, because he has fell flat on his face with the expectations everyone (the media) had for him.

Regardless if you think it's fair or not, those are the expectations that he put on himself by getting KING JAMES tattoo'd across his back.

He gave himself the title and when push came down to shove, he folded like a cheap chair.



He didn't give himself King James he got that since high school since he went to a parochial school.

Other than that I see your point but if LeBron rattles off a few titles and he's the driving force behind them this will be a distant memory.

Winning solves a lot

Since86
06-13-2011, 12:14 PM
He's fully embraced that nickname. If he didn't like it, it would go away. The ESPN commercial with him and SVP, where he was sitting in a throne? He could easily say no to doing a promotion like that. When you do things like that, and more, then that's owning your nickname. It really doesn't matter if he thought of it or not, he's given himself that name by not only accepting it, but by marketing it.

Oh, and I fudged up. He doesn't have "KING JAMES" as a tat, he has "CHOSEN" tattoo'd on his back instead.

But no, winning wont solve this. MJ never lost a finals. MJ actually raised his game in the playoffs, and even more-so in the finals. LeBron averaged 27pts per game this season, and then went on to average less than 20 in the Finals. Those type of choke jobs will stay with him forever.

They might turn into, "Remember when LeBron couldn't get it done in the Finals? Well look at him now," but he will carry this choke job around with him for the rest of his life, in one fashion or another.

EDIT: And let's not forget he also has "WITNESS" along the outside of his calf. It's like he's a walking billboard of his perceived greatness.

Kid Minneapolis
06-13-2011, 12:33 PM
No reaction from the PD commonfolk? Or are you all the eccentric billionaires I imagine, getting caviar stains on your keyboards and all?

I guess I'm an eccentric billionaire minus a billion dollars. His statement wasn't about being condescending, but the way he phrased it could make it easy to translate it that way. I took it as "we all still wake up in the morning and go about our business".

woowoo
06-13-2011, 12:37 PM
This. If MJ and Kobe changed their games as they aged? Why can't LeBron? MJ became a much better post up player as his career progressed, ditto for Kobe. I don't get this premise that LeBron "won't be able to adapt because he relies on athleticism". Were MJ and Kobe not high flyers went they entered the league?

If you don't believe this, grab a copy of NBA 2k11 and play with '90 Jordan and '96 Jordan, and I guarantee you'll see a noticeable difference in shooting ability, quickness, and athletic ability from that transition.

LeBron's biggest instinct is will and passiveness. MJ willed his team to victories, and Kobe always had the alpha-dog mentality. While he's not Brandon Rush, there were times that LeBron simply needed to take it over...and while it would've been one thing had he tried and failed. For most of the Finals, it seemed he never even tried.

You have it backwards, MJ and Kobe as they got/get older did/are rely on the "outside" game much more then the attack the basket game and post game. These players are lean body types and could sustain the athletic part of their game much longer.

LeFraud is more comparable in body type to Magic. And Magic did have to go down low a lot more at 30 yrs of age than he did in his early years.

LeFraud is a big thick dude, his body will start slowing him down. We may have seen it this series against the Mavs. Playing all those huge minutes may have took their toll.

IMO, LeFraud will have to develop a post game or his career could end early.

Brad8888
06-13-2011, 12:42 PM
For me, Lebron is Pippen in need of a Jordan and a Phil Jackson to get the ring. Wade is great, and has just as much skill as Lebron but not the same imposing physical stature (Duh!). Wade has more ability to handle pressure than Lebron does, and therefore is a little more of a leader than Lebron is or may ever be. But, Wade doesn't have a dominance over Lebron like Jordan had over Pippen, and I think Lebron needs that to keep him properly focused instead of being distracted.

I also would guess that the Heat need Riley or Phil (or someone like them) to manage the egos of Lebron and Wade and to make the rest of the Heat feel as if they have more importance than they might feel they do at this point. With that aspect handled (which I really hope doesn't happen) and the remainder of the Heat supporting the stars, coupled with maturity coming to Lebron (and Wade to a lesser extent) in the presence of a coach with a more dominant personality, the Heat could be formidable.

At this point Lebron's legacy is one undeserved trip to the Finals with the Cavs (Detroit got robbed even though it pains me to say that), the "Decision" that destroyed his marketability and turned the Heat into villains in the eyes of fans, and then a second trip to the Finals where a better team with better leadership beat his superstar lineup after he and Wade made a truly stupid "decision" to show their immaturity by poking fun at Nowitzki playing through illness and beating them.

Next season (whenever it happens), will likely determine a lot for Lebron. He will have had a lot of time to sit and think and possibly learn from his mistakes of arrogance. What he does will either cement his legacy, or will begin to transform it. It is mostly up to Lebron at this point.

woowoo
06-13-2011, 12:43 PM
Now I've got myself wondering who I consider to be the most skilled player currently in the NBA.

Is there anything Kobe Bryant can't do other than what his body no longer allows?

I think "Right Now" Kobe and LeFraud are the best players in the NBA. But I think in 2 or 3 years Kevin Durant and not LeFraud will be dominating the league.

Brad8888
06-13-2011, 12:57 PM
No reaction from the PD commonfolk? Or are you all the eccentric billionaires I imagine, getting caviar stains on your keyboards and all?

My caviar must have gotten into my speakers. It happens, especially when my staff overfills my carafe of Dom Perignon and it falls over and hits the edge of my golden plate due to the clumsy oaf negligently knocking it over when he is placing the 1000 thread count Egyptian cotton napkin on my lap...

I couldn't get any sound from that video, so I have no idea what he said, and I am probably glad about that.

15th parallel
06-13-2011, 12:59 PM
Carmelo Anthony can do anything.

Anything but defense, I guess.

mattie
06-13-2011, 01:07 PM
Anything but defense, I guess.

Talent wise Anthony can do anything. Just because he refuses to play defense doesn't mean he can't play it.

PR07
06-13-2011, 01:35 PM
You have it backwards, MJ and Kobe as they got/get older did/are rely on the "outside" game much more then the attack the basket game and post game. These players are lean body types and could sustain the athletic part of their game much longer.



Not true. Do you remember MJ with the Wizards? His entire game consisted of either a step-back mid-range jumper or posting up on smaller guards?

I've also noticed Kobe's doing more posting up because he's lost the quickness to get around every defender like he used to by dribbling past them.

So yes, I'll agree in that they attack the rim less (as they aged), but post up less? No.

Basketball Fan
06-13-2011, 02:42 PM
He's fully embraced that nickname. If he didn't like it, it would go away. The ESPN commercial with him and SVP, where he was sitting in a throne? He could easily say no to doing a promotion like that. When you do things like that, and more, then that's owning your nickname. It really doesn't matter if he thought of it or not, he's given himself that name by not only accepting it, but by marketing it.

Oh, and I fudged up. He doesn't have "KING JAMES" as a tat, he has "CHOSEN" tattoo'd on his back instead.

But no, winning wont solve this. MJ never lost a finals. MJ actually raised his game in the playoffs, and even more-so in the finals. LeBron averaged 27pts per game this season, and then went on to average less than 20 in the Finals. Those type of choke jobs will stay with him forever.

They might turn into, "Remember when LeBron couldn't get it done in the Finals? Well look at him now," but he will carry this choke job around with him for the rest of his life, in one fashion or another.
EDIT: And let's not forget he also has "WITNESS" along the outside of his calf. It's like he's a walking billboard of his perceived greatness.

So you're *****ing about the fact he embraced the nickname? Okay I guess I don't see the big deal. All I was saying was that it was given to him and he ran with it its not like he created it.

But as for winning not solving this if he manages to get past this and win multiple titles and be a driving force this will be a distant memory.After all look at Kobe. While many discredit his accomplishments many thought he'd never win without Shaq and now he's surpassed him in ring total.



People will still hate him but hey if you win that really doesn't sting as much.

Since86
06-13-2011, 03:00 PM
I'm not "*****ing" at anything, first off.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if he created the nickname or if his mom did. It doesn't matter.

If you're going to refer to yourself as King James, and then get it tattoo'd on your body, call yourself The Chosen One, and then get it tattoo'd on your body, and then tell people to Witness your greatness, and get it tattoo'd on your body, then you'd better freaking participate in the show instead of fading into the background so Mario Freaking Chamlers can take a three that you just passed up.

I forget, when was the last time people questioned Kobe's competitiveness? Never.
I forget, when was the last time people questioned MJ's competitiveness? Never.

People will ALWAYS remember LeBron quitting on Cleveland and they will ALWAYS remember him quitting this year.

Whenever the topic of where LeBron stands as the greatest, those points will be brought up. He will never escape it, even if he goes on to win 15 rings. The argument will always have those two points brought up. Like I said, it might be "Remember how LeBron quit in the playoffs for Cleveland and then quit on the Heat in the Finals? Well, he needed those trials to get where he is today." That is perfectly plausible, but the fact he gave up on two seperate teams when it mattered most, will never be forgotten.

The point of the tats are that he thinks people are just going to roll over for his greatness, instead of him actually earning it.

Basketball Fan
06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
I'm not "*****ing" at anything, first off.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if he created the nickname or if his mom did. It doesn't matter.

If you're going to refer to yourself as King James, and then get it tattoo'd on your body, call yourself The Chosen One, and then get it tattoo'd on your body, and then tell people to Witness your greatness, and get it tattoo'd on your body, then you'd better freaking participate in the show instead of fading into the background so Mario Freaking Chamlers can take a three that you just passed up.

I forget, when was the last time people questioned Kobe's competitiveness? Never.
I forget, when was the last time people questioned MJ's competitiveness? Never.

People will ALWAYS remember LeBron quitting on Cleveland and they will ALWAYS remember him quitting this year.

Whenever the topic of where LeBron stands as the greatest, those points will be brought up. He will never escape it, even if he goes on to win 15 rings. The argument will always have those two points brought up. Like I said, it might be "Remember how LeBron quit in the playoffs for Cleveland and then quit on the Heat in the Finals? Well, he needed those trials to get where he is today." That is perfectly plausible, but the fact he gave up on two seperate teams when it mattered most, will never be forgotten.

The point of the tats are that he thinks people are just going to roll over for his greatness, instead of him actually earning it.

First off sorry about the *****ing comment it just came across that way to me.

Kobe is questioned all the time where have you been?

You have a point about MJ though

I do agree LeBron has entitlement issues but not willing to do the work to do it that's what keeps him from the MJ/Kobe comparisons.

But as I said earlier if he wins a few titles perception will change... its up to him though.

PacersFan1991
06-13-2011, 04:22 PM
T-Mobile just made a Special Edition LeBron James Phone....but it only has a Vibrate option....No RINGS

PR07
06-13-2011, 04:42 PM
I do agree LeBron has entitlement issues but not willing to do the work to do it that's what keeps him from the MJ/Kobe comparisons.

But as I said earlier if he wins a few titles perception will change... its up to him though.

I'd still compare him to Kobe all the time. The fact is neither one of those guys is close to MJ, even though the two groups like to pretend they are.

Basketball Fan
06-13-2011, 05:17 PM
I'd still compare him to Kobe all the time. The fact is neither one of those guys is close to MJ, even though the two groups like to pretend they are.



I try not to get into the MJ debate too much only because I don't think he's the GOAT.

Its subjective you could make an argument for Kareem or Wilt as well

Or Russell the greatest champion of all if we're talking ring total.

But its about who's marketed the best and it was Jordan. The others never got that backing and lived up to the hype at the same time.

Heisenberg
06-13-2011, 05:35 PM
A man was at the coke machine and needed change for his dollar. Lebron James walks buy and the man asks him if he's got change. Lebron takes his dollar and hands him 3 quarters. "You owe me another quarter!" he says. "Sorry, I don't have a 4th quarter."

NuffSaid
06-13-2011, 05:40 PM
It's hard to say what LeBron's legacy will be. I mean, he stayed with the Cavs his first 7 yr and had success with them. I'd say that up til now the only blemish on him would be the both the way he left Cleveland and the way he has handled defeat in this Finals series.

I know it has to hurt because LeBron's not use to losing, not like this. But if he wants the fans to respect him he has to learn to handle himself with alittle more class and be able to take losing with maturity just as he does winning. He'll carry the sting of this defeat with him throughout the summer, though. But eventually, he'll bounce back...

BlueNGold
06-13-2011, 09:17 PM
I try not to get into the MJ debate too much only because I don't think he's the GOAT.

Its subjective you could make an argument for Kareem or Wilt as well

Or Russell the greatest champion of all if we're talking ring total.

But its about who's marketed the best and it was Jordan. The others never got that backing and lived up to the hype at the same time.

Try harder if you don't want a response.

I've seen hundreds of games since the early 1970's including Dr. J., Wilt, Kareem, Dream, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Jordan and Kobe. Notwithstanding whatever Pippen said to get in the news, Jordan is better than anyone who has played in the NBA in at least 40 years. I recall when Jordan entered the league and I thought Magic was the GOAT at the time. Jordan clearly surpassed him, Bird, Dream and Kareem. That part should not even be a debate.

BTW, Kareem does not have a case for GOAT. Kareem isn't even as good as Magic or Wilt.

DaveP63
06-13-2011, 09:27 PM
This will be his legacy...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1249788&postcount=13

BlueNGold
06-13-2011, 10:33 PM
This will be his legacy...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1249788&postcount=13

Wow. Dude is seriously bitter. I suppose he can continue to dig a deeper hole. I'm even more glad Brian Cardinal got the best of him...;)

On a serious note, LeBron is not only an immature prima donna and whiner, he is a very sore and childish loser who disappeared not once but multiple times at crunch time. ...and he's also wrong. I will be happy about him losing for...easily...an entire year. Maybe more. Each year he loses is another 1 year renewal. I cannot wait until next year.

Ok....got all that hate out now...:D

Basketball Fan
06-14-2011, 01:00 PM
Try harder if you don't want a response.

I've seen hundreds of games since the early 1970's including Dr. J., Wilt, Kareem, Dream, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Jordan and Kobe. Notwithstanding whatever Pippen said to get in the news, Jordan is better than anyone who has played in the NBA in at least 40 years. I recall when Jordan entered the league and I thought Magic was the GOAT at the time. Jordan clearly surpassed him, Bird, Dream and Kareem. That part should not even be a debate.

BTW, Kareem does not have a case for GOAT. Kareem isn't even as good as Magic or Wilt.

Based on what? See that's the thing what is the GOAT argument based on?

Rings? Well Russell has 11 but he's not the GOAT apparently

Stats? Kareem has stats but its overlooked for some reason


6 NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 19871988)
6 NBA Most Valuable Player (19711972, 1974, 19761977, 1980)
19 NBA All-Star (19701977, 19791989)
2 NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
10 All-NBA First Team (19711974, 19761977, 19801981, 1984, 1986)
5 All-NBA Second Team (1970, 19781979, 1983, 1985)
5 NBA All-Defensive First Team (19741975, 19791981)
6 NBA All-Defensive Second Team (19701971, 19761978, 1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1970)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1970)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


He's also got 6 rings just like Jordan, won more regular season MVPs to name a few things. Has more points than Jordan too.

Kareem also did something that Magic never did? Win a ring without the other.

I don't get why its so laughable to put Kareem up there but because he rubbed people the wrong way he'll always be discredited.

Dominant force in the game? That was Wilt but he was never the champion Russell was.

See that's the thing with the GOAT argument there is no such thing as the indisputed GOAT its a media creation nothing more.

Every era was different but Jordan was in the era where athletes became their own corporations and took a life of their own.

PacersFan1991
06-14-2011, 04:32 PM
If LeBron wanted a ring, he should have stayed in Cleveland and bought one from Terrelle Pryor.

PR07
06-14-2011, 04:54 PM
I try not to get into the MJ debate too much only because I don't think he's the GOAT.

Its subjective you could make an argument for Kareem or Wilt as well

Or Russell the greatest champion of all if we're talking ring total.

But its about who's marketed the best and it was Jordan. The others never got that backing and lived up to the hype at the same time.

I wasn't even saying that Jordan is the GOAT (but I do believe he is), so don't jump the gun.

However, in terms of greatest shooting guard ever, MJ is at a league of his own right now over Kobe & LeBron.

If LeBron wanted a ring, he should have stayed in Cleveland and bought one from Terrelle Pryor.

He'd still have to drive another 2.5 hours to Colombus.

BlueNGold
06-14-2011, 07:17 PM
Based on what? See that's the thing what is the GOAT argument based on?

Rings? Well Russell has 11 but he's not the GOAT apparently

Stats? Kareem has stats but its overlooked for some reason
...

I don't get why its so laughable to put Kareem up there but because he rubbed people the wrong way he'll always be discredited.

Dominant force in the game? That was Wilt but he was never the champion Russell was.

See that's the thing with the GOAT argument there is no such thing as the indisputed GOAT its a media creation nothing more.

Every era was different but Jordan was in the era where athletes became their own corporations and took a life of their own.

GOAT is an opinion and nothing more. Stats mean very little. If it did, Troy Murphy would be an all-star. Rings mean very little. Just ask Brian Cardinal and the litany of stiffs that have multiple rings with Jordan.

However, while it is an opinion...some people have better ones. That usually takes some education and experience. Unless you have actually seen the players in action...not old clips but see them playing against other players during an actual game within the context of that day and against other era players...one cannot form an educated opinion. Personally, I was around in the 1960's and I grew up watching Dr. J, Wilt, Bird, Magic, etc. I truly believe you need to have seen these players to have standing to rank them.

As for the Jordan era, sure things became more advanced and marketed. However, there hasn't been another player with his draw since that time. It takes a winner who is also not an alleged rapist or a ridiculously self-centered egomaniac to market. IOW, people do not want to buy Kobe and especially LeBron because they have not been nearly as likable as Michael Jordan. LeBron isn't even a winner.

Most amazing is that LeBron is less likable than Kobe. I used to be so impressed with LeBron's control of himself and the media I thought he was the next Jordan if not better. A few years ago I would have never thought he would become less popular than Kobe Bryant...but he has.

Basketball Fan
06-14-2011, 09:06 PM
GOAT is an opinion and nothing more. Stats mean very little. If it did, Troy Murphy would be an all-star. Rings mean very little. Just ask Brian Cardinal and the litany of stiffs that have multiple rings with Jordan.


My point exactly


However, while it is an opinion...some people have better ones. That usually takes some education and experience. Unless you have actually seen the players in action...not old clips but see them playing against other players during an actual game within the context of that day and against other era players...one cannot form an educated opinion. Personally, I was around in the 1960's and I grew up watching Dr. J, Wilt, Bird, Magic, etc. I truly believe you need to have seen these players to have standing to rank them.

So you're using an opinion to defend an opinion the way its told the NBA didn't exist before Jordan/Bird/Magic. But it did and while some of us aren't old it doesn't mean that they can't look back and appreciate it even if it is from a limited viewpoint. I saw Jordan's entire career he was a great player despite the fact that I despise him but do I think he's the GOAT? No I don't. People seem to forget his stint with the Wizards which I think dented his legacy or at least should've. Or the years where he didn't win anything until Phil Jackson came along of course back then it was Jordan who made Phil Jackson. And Pippen was just some sidekick(even though the Bulls managed to make a deep playoff run without him in 1994 but that's rarely referenced that the Bulls as a team were better than people gave it for it wasn't Jordan and some nobodies he was heavily marketed though)

But he lived up to the hype eventually despite years of failure.


As for the Jordan era, sure things became more advanced and marketed. However, there hasn't been another player with his draw since that time. It takes a winner who is also not an alleged rapist or a ridiculously self-centered egomaniac to market. IOW, people do not want to buy Kobe and especially LeBron because they have not been nearly as likable as Michael Jordan. LeBron isn't even a winner.


Again likeability is subjective I like Kobe and even LeBron more than MJ. However MJ's dirt was well protected I'm sure if he lived in a TMZ age he'd be perceived differently.



Most amazing is that LeBron is less likable than Kobe. I used to be so impressed with LeBron's control of himself and the media I thought he was the next Jordan if not better. A few years ago I would have never thought he would become less popular than Kobe Bryant...but he has.

I don't think so sure it seems that way now prisoner of the moment if you will. This is child's play compared to the hatred of Kobe through the years and this was before Colorado that's still there today but its not referenced because well Kobe exited the playoffs early and unlike LeBron has kept his mouth shut most of the time. But Kobe is more hated than LeBron when next season starts they'll say as much.

Sookie
06-14-2011, 10:22 PM
I don't think so sure it seems that way now prisoner of the moment if you will. This is child's play compared to the hatred of Kobe through the years and this was before Colorado that's still there today but its not referenced because well Kobe exited the playoffs early and unlike LeBron has kept his mouth shut most of the time. But Kobe is more hated than LeBron when next season starts they'll say as much.

Nah, Kobe's more well liked than Lebron now. He earned a lot of people's respect when he won, and because he seems to have grown up.

Lebron's going through what Kobe had went through.

But I agree about MJ. He's every bit as self-centered..if not more so, than Lebron. And with the amount of womanizing he did, it would have been really easy for a woman to accuse him of sexual harassment/assault.

King Tuts Tomb
06-14-2011, 10:28 PM
Crazy that this many people are already writing the postmortem to the career of a 26 year old. The LeBron bashing is stupidly similar to what I heard about Peyton Manning pre-2006. I'm amazed that so many Indy fans can be so caught up in the same boring rhetoric that was used against them half a decade ago.

spreedom
06-14-2011, 11:08 PM
I was pretty sure LeBron gave himself the nickname "King James."

Since86
06-15-2011, 09:22 AM
Crazy that this many people are already writing the postmortem to the career of a 26 year old. The LeBron bashing is stupidly similar to what I heard about Peyton Manning pre-2006. I'm amazed that so many Indy fans can be so caught up in the same boring rhetoric that was used against them half a decade ago.

I must have slept through Peyton taking a dump on an entire fan base.

Once again, whether you like it or not, athletes are still judged by their personalities.

BlueNGold
06-15-2011, 11:29 PM
Nah, Kobe's more well liked than Lebron now. He earned a lot of people's respect when he won, and because he seems to have grown up.

Lebron's going through what Kobe had went through.

But I agree about MJ. He's every bit as self-centered..if not more so, than Lebron. And with the amount of womanizing he did, it would have been really easy for a woman to accuse him of sexual harassment/assault.

I agree with everything you say here. Kobe has healed a bit of his reputation and when you have LeBron acting ridiculous Kobe automatically looks much better.

.....but I'm not sure whether anyone can really measure how self-centered these players might be. I actually think Jordan struggled a bit with his self esteem early on. There is no question in my mind that LeBron simply likes himself more MJ ever did.

Anyway, all these guys have been idolized since they were 10 years old so it's no wonder their arrogance is almost supernatural. Because of that, they really shouldn't be blamed so much...but LeBron's statements and actions have been too much to stomach for most of us.

BTW, it will be interesting to see how the Heat rebound from this disappointment. It's hard to say if the lesson will make them better or if teams will learn more effective ways of beating their team...which is largely a gimmick propped up by a ton of talent on the wing.

BlueNGold
06-15-2011, 11:36 PM
I must have slept through Peyton taking a dump on an entire fan base.

Once again, whether you like it or not, athletes are still judged by their personalities.

Agreed. The Peyton "bashing" wasn't remotely the same. Peyton "bashing" was more like the John Elway "bashing".

I suppose the delayed coronation is part of the comparison...but there is still a critical difference. Both of those quarterbacks ultimately won it all. LeBron's a step or two behind them and there's no guarantee he will ever win it...as we see another year pass. Also, one bad fall by DWade and LeBron might be better compared to his buddy Charles Barkley.

Sookie
06-15-2011, 11:40 PM
I agree with everything you say here. Kobe has healed a bit of his reputation and when you have LeBron acting ridiculous Kobe automatically looks much better.

.....but I'm not sure whether anyone can really measure how self-centered these players might be. I actually think Jordan struggled a bit with his self esteem early on. There is no question in my mind that LeBron simply likes himself more MJ ever did.

Anyway, all these guys have been idolized since they were 10 years old so it's no wonder their arrogance is almost supernatural. Because of that, they really shouldn't be blamed so much...but LeBron's statements and actions have been too much to stomach for most of us.

BTW, it will be interesting to see how the Heat rebound from this disappointment. It's hard to say if the lesson will make them better or if teams will learn more effective ways of beating their team...which is largely a gimmick propped up by a ton of talent on the wing.

Honestly, I think all three are borderline narcissistic..and at the same time insecure.

Lebron James is not a secure individual. Kobe..quite frankly I think he's socially awkward. He's honestly, the most likeable when he's a complete jerk to the press..because that's real. Half the time it seems like he's faking or trying too hard. And MJ..ugh..he's like Shaq, he rarely gets called on it..but honestly his personality is worse than either of the other two.

Basketball Fan
06-16-2011, 01:31 AM
Crazy that this many people are already writing the postmortem to the career of a 26 year old. The LeBron bashing is stupidly similar to what I heard about Peyton Manning pre-2006. I'm amazed that so many Indy fans can be so caught up in the same boring rhetoric that was used against them half a decade ago.



Pre 2006? The same criticism is used against him today. I guess you forgot how quickly he was blamed for the SB loss(although there was plenty of blame to go around for that debacle)

Peyton's critcized mostly for his on the field accomplishments(or lack thereof) if people resent him its probably because he came from $$$ nobody likes a successful rich kid.

LeBron's has to do with that Decision special. Had he not hosted that travesty this would all be different right now.

BlueNGold
06-16-2011, 02:08 PM
LeBron's has to do with that Decision special. Had he not hosted that travesty this would all be different right now.

Agreed. I might add that he's been defiant about it...talking about how the public will have to go back to their sad lives once the joy over his defeat fades.

Fact is, the public wants a piece of him over this and he's not been willing enough to humble himself. Instead, he yaps about how he only cares about not letting down his team mates. That's code for "I'm not going to let disapproval by the public affect me or force me to humble myself."

This is why it will take a long time to heal his reputation. The public doesn't like arrogant athletes who disrespect public sentiment. So, LeBron cannot have it all. He cannot be an arrogant jerk who takes self-serving actions that arguably hurt the competitive nature of the league...and expect fans to go along with it particularly with a self-centered sideshow like "The Decision". IOW, there is a cost he will incur (both financial and personal) to protect his ego whether he likes it or not.

vapacersfan
06-16-2011, 03:54 PM
FWIW, he apologized for those comments and perhaps I am just a sucker but I truly think he meant it in a good way (as in "we all need to move on")

Does not change the fact it was one of the stupidest things he could have said