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View Full Version : Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate



Evan_The_Dude
05-05-2011, 08:27 PM
“@MikeWellsNBA: Add Frank Vogel to the continuing growing list of people to have interviewed for the vacant Houston Rockets position, according to a source”

“@MikeWellsNBA: Vogel and Rockets general manager David Morey were together with the Boston Celtics.”

xBulletproof
05-05-2011, 08:28 PM
Back off *****. He's ours.

ChristianDudley
05-05-2011, 08:33 PM
Well if he doesn't get this job here real soon, I can imagine that he'll get several more interviews by other teams very shortly. Other teams really took notice of how good of a job he did when he got his chance this season. I think the Pacers are taking him for granted.

Professor S
05-05-2011, 08:46 PM
Okay. Quit screwing around with your little arguments Bird and Simon. Time to make a decision, move forward with the future of the franchise and lock Vogel up for a few years.

Spirit
05-05-2011, 09:25 PM
We wouldn't let him go to job interviews if we had planned on bringing him back.

Peck
05-05-2011, 09:30 PM
We wouldn't let him go to job interviews if we had planned on bringing him back.

We have no way of stopping him, he is a free agent right now and he needs to secure a job.

If the team has no intention of keeping him I can live with this (I guess) but if they let him slip away because Bird & Simon are playing tag with each other I will be mightily p!ssed.

Trophy
05-05-2011, 09:30 PM
Tomorrow's Friday and that's when the official meeting between Bird and Simon is supposed to be held.

Hopefully things are effectively done especially giving Vogel an extension.

This meeting with Houston doesn't mean anything. I'm sure Houston knows that Vogel is more than likely returning to be our coach, but were just interested to hear what he had to say.

Spirit
05-05-2011, 09:39 PM
I hope we make a complete overhaul. I like Vogel but if keepng him means keeping Bird and ultimately standing pat, no thanks.

Trophy
05-05-2011, 09:46 PM
I hope we make a complete overhaul. I like Vogel but if keepng him means keeping Bird and ultimately standing pat, no thanks.

Keeping Vogel won't impact that.

Vogel is pretty much the opposite of what Bird saw and liked for 4 years in O'Brien.

I just want something to get done by tomorrow whether it's extending Vogel or Bird making up his mind on his future.

I hope we bring in Kevin Pritchard to the FO whether he replaces Bird or Morway. I like his willingness to take risks and bring in talent to make his team better. With all this cap space, he's gonna be in heaven.

pacer4ever
05-05-2011, 09:51 PM
Keeping Vogel won't impact that.

Vogel is pretty much the opposite of what Bird saw and liked for 4 years in O'Brien.

I just want something to get done by tomorrow whether it's extending Vogel or Bird making up his mind on his future.

I hope we bring in Kevin Pritchard to the FO whether he replaces Bird or Morway. I like his willingness to take risks and bring in talent to make his team better. With all this cap space, he's gonna be in heaven.

extending Vogel before the lockout to me is stupid just kind of a waste of money if we are locked out.

ksuttonjr76
05-05-2011, 10:07 PM
extending Vogel before the lockout to me is stupid just kind of a waste of money if we are locked out.

Is his salary prorated? If it's not prorated, then it won't matter if we extend him before or after the lockout.

pacer4ever
05-05-2011, 10:09 PM
Is his salary prorated? If it's not prorated, then it won't matter if we extend him before or after the lockout.

You get paid though the lock out if you are a coach or FO i think but i am not very sure.

Spirit
05-05-2011, 10:12 PM
Keeping Vogel won't impact that.

Vogel is pretty much the opposite of what Bird saw and liked for 4 years in O'Brien.

I just want something to get done by tomorrow whether it's extending Vogel or Bird making up his mind on his future.

I hope we bring in Kevin Pritchard to the FO whether he replaces Bird or Morway. I like his willingness to take risks and bring in talent to make his team better. With all this cap space, he's gonna be in heaven.
But I think if we get a new president of basketball operations, they will want to hire a coach that they like rather than keep the one we already have.

Evan_The_Dude
05-05-2011, 10:17 PM
I just hope we see the value in him. Because other teams obviously do..

Trophy
05-05-2011, 10:21 PM
But I think if we get a new president of basketball operations, they will want to hire a coach that they like rather than keep the one we already have.

If they're aware of what Vogel's done for the team which I hope they're aware, then he'd be brought back. The players like him.

I guess he'd bring in who he wants, but after the display in the playoffs and ever since taking over, any GM/President would keep him.

Heisenberg
05-05-2011, 10:21 PM
I just hope we see the value in him. Because other teams obviously do..
Apparently the same amount as Kelvin Sampson

vnzla81
05-05-2011, 10:26 PM
It would suck if Bird is back and doesn't hire the guy that saved his job.

Psyren
05-05-2011, 10:40 PM
We better make up our minds quickly.

TMJ31
05-05-2011, 10:43 PM
I am going to be pretty pissed if we let someone else snag Coach Vogel and we twiddle our thumbs.

The last half of this season and our postseason showed us that he *IS* the man for *THIS* team. Are there more experienced people we could bring in? Of course.

But I am firmly convinced that Coach Vogel is the perfect fit for our organization and young team.

We need to get this **** DONE. NOW!

OakMoses
05-05-2011, 10:46 PM
extending Vogel before the lockout to me is stupid just kind of a waste of money if we are locked out.

Buck's addressed this issue numerous times, but you have to have a coach in place during the lockout for a variety of reasons.

Am I the only one who's first thought was "good for Frank"?

Sandman21
05-05-2011, 10:50 PM
So, do we get to break out the torches and pitchforks and march on the Fieldhouse if Bird and Simon dilly-dally around and Frank gets scooped up because of it?

Trophy
05-05-2011, 10:50 PM
The front page of IndyStar.com is making this a pretty big deal.

Vogel pretty much flat out stated this is where he wants to coach. This is where his family is situated and he loves the players and the organization and the players love playing for him.

The issue with the FO is they wait a while.

I'm not counting on anything being a big deal with Houston however. They probably just wanted to hear what he had to say.

Now if he gets a second interview, I might be concerned with that.

Thank God tomorrow's Friday and lets make up our minds.

Heisenberg
05-05-2011, 10:56 PM
The Rockets have interviewed something like a dozen guys. This is going to be a long, long process of dwindling down candidates for them. Bird said Frank gets the first and last interview. Bird and Simon are meeting tomorrow.

We're not losing out on Coach Frank because Bird and Simon are screwing around. Chill out. I like him a lot and want him back but some of you are acting like he's Red Auerbach or something.

pacergod2
05-05-2011, 10:58 PM
Right on melli. I hope he gets the job to be honest. That way I feel better about going in a different direction. I hope the negotiating between Bird and Simon is over quickly. They both seem to be agreeable and rational men. Some may disagree.

Bird makes this franchise a better franchise. His talent evaluations have helped us tremendously. And his iconic "Legend", doesn't hurt. Anything we can do to bring more attention to the Pacers, the better. Our franchise needs it. We need to become a profitable franchise through this new CBA and team growth. With the rumblings of moving franchises around more easily, I would hate for our small market to be a target. Let Indiana keep its basketball.

Roaming Gnome
05-05-2011, 11:32 PM
Why do you guys keep saying Bird & Simon are going to meet on "Friday" when it's not happening until Tuesday!?


Bird-Simon meeting next week

Pacers president Larry Bird will fly to California to meet with owner Herb Simon on Tuesday.

Simon has said he wants Bird to return, but Bird is looking to resolve some financial and personnel issues.

beast23
05-05-2011, 11:51 PM
Tomorrow's Friday and that's when the official meeting between Bird and Simon is supposed to be held.

Hopefully things are effectively done especially giving Vogel an extension.

This meeting with Houston doesn't mean anything. I'm sure Houston knows that Vogel is more than likely returning to be our coach, but were just interested to hear what he had to say.I heard on 1070 today that Simon will meet Bird in Los Angeles on Monday at 10 AM.

I hope Bird and Simon come out of the meeting on the same page with Bird continuing in his present role... or even President/GM as far as I'm concerned. The sooner Bird re-ups, the sooner we can get Vogel on board.

I've thought about Bird saying that Vogel would get the first interview and also last interview. If you really think about it, if he only interviewed Vogel, I suppose that would be a true statement, right?

A coach like Vogel is hard to find. He's a "player's coach", having developed a very good raport with his players. He got them to consistently perform in the final stretch of the season and in the playoffs. In fact, they delivered on what he stated he wanted... a "smashmouth" team.

I say give him 3 years and one or two additional players through trades or FA and let's see what he can do.

Hicks
05-05-2011, 11:51 PM
As Gnome said, Bird and Simon will meet Tuesday, not tomorrow.

Hicks
05-05-2011, 11:54 PM
As for the story, good for Frank, honestly. It's further validation that he's a worthy hire as far as I'm concerned.

An interview doesn't mean he's out the door, so I'm not viewing this as any sign that he's done with the Pacers.

Constellations
05-05-2011, 11:57 PM
Considering Frank's accomplishments with our 2nd half a season left in Indiana after OB half gutted it, the man is a pretty shiny gem out there. Good for him. He deserves recognition for what he did. Much love Frank.

Kemo
05-06-2011, 12:08 AM
I will be mad as ***** if we don't hire Vogel to be honest.. and if that happens , I am more than willing to meet up/carpool with a bunch of you guys to picket Conseco ..
Matter of fact, to me , it sounds like a great idea for us to right now, start a "HIRE VOGEL" campaign online , as well as organizing something where maybe we could get at least a few hundred outside in front of The Fieldhouse , with our hire Vogel signs..
I can guarantee you this, if we could have a successful turnout ,(with some well placed calls ) I know we could make it on WTHR , WISHTV , as well as the rest of the Indiana news stations. and in essence force the hand of the Pacer's front office to act..
Wouldn't that be something?

All those in favor, Let's do this folks..

I would venture to say , that if we got the word out, that we could most definitely get quite a few Pacers players to show up..

I ask , What Say You?

.

ECKrueger
05-06-2011, 12:19 AM
Why do you guys keep saying Bird & Simon are going to meet on "Friday" when it's not happening until Tuesday!?

Bird-Simon meeting next week

Pacers president Larry Bird will fly to California to meet with owner Herb Simon on Tuesday.

Simon has said he wants Bird to return, but Bird is looking to resolve some financial and personnel issues.

This almost reminds me of Painter/Purdue.

KingGeorge
05-06-2011, 12:25 AM
start a "HIRE VOGEL" campaign online

They already have one on Facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/VogelCampaign

Kegboy
05-06-2011, 12:38 AM
Has Tbird interviewed with Houston yet? I swear he's the only guy they haven't talked to yet.

IMO the Vogel fans should be happy about this. It only serves to further validate him. Plus, regardless of if Herb wants Vogel or not, it reminds him the longer he takes, the less candidates will be available.

docpaul
05-06-2011, 01:16 AM
I am going to be pretty pissed if we let someone else snag Coach Vogel and we twiddle our thumbs.

The last half of this season and our postseason showed us that he *IS* the man for *THIS* team. Are there more experienced people we could bring in? Of course.

But I am firmly convinced that Coach Vogel is the perfect fit for our organization and young team.

We need to get this **** DONE. NOW!

With all due respect, this is why people like us are not in the front office managing a NBA team. ;)

You communicate openly with him, tell him how he's appreciated, but tell him that we need to go through a formal interview process.

If he's half the coach I believe he is, he'd be confident that he'll stand up well in that comparison, and welcome it... helping his value in the process.

Panic isn't the right approach to this. If he just takes another offer and doesn't honor what he said publicly about wanting to stay here, then it's probably the best to move on anyways.

JMHO.

TMJ31
05-06-2011, 01:35 AM
With all due respect, this is why people like us are not in the front office managing a NBA team. ;)

You communicate openly with him, tell him how he's appreciated, but tell him that we need to go through a formal interview process.

If he's half the coach I believe he is, he'd be confident that he'll stand up well in that comparison, and welcome it... helping his value in the process.

Panic isn't the right approach to this. If he just takes another offer and doesn't honor what he said publicly about wanting to stay here, then it's probably the best to move on anyways.

JMHO.


I agree with you, I didn't mean to come off "panicked".

However, I do think that this should be a fairly no-brainer decision for the Pacers FO and that we should avoid any potential courting from other teams if we can. It's obvious that Vogel wants to stay here, and it's obvious that he has had a tremendously positive impact on our team, so why go through all the motions? Just hire the guy and show him that we have the confidence in him he deserves after his performance this last year.

Doddage
05-06-2011, 01:46 AM
This is why we should have done this before the end of the season. Now we're going to have to outbid other teams if we want to keep him.

With that said, I have a feeling that this is where he wants to be considering his familiarity and bond with the players.

Day-V
05-06-2011, 02:19 AM
I hope we make a complete overhaul. I like Vogel but if keepng him means keeping Bird and ultimately standing pat, no thanks.

You should change your name to Captain Oblivious.

CooperManning
05-06-2011, 04:00 AM
Let's not forget the possibility that Morey could have given Vogel the interview as a favor, hoping it'd help him get the job with the Pacers. I want Vogel back like (almost) everyone else, but just because he got an interview from his former boss doesn't mean we're in danger of losing him.

If he gets two more interviews, that's when I start to worry.

cdash
05-06-2011, 04:04 AM
I'm not concerned at all. The Rockets are interviewing everyone under the sun. If we want to bring Vogel back, he will be back.

Will Galen
05-06-2011, 04:09 AM
A lot of you guys should join an old women's knitting bee, you'd be right at home repeating gossip, and saying "Oh my god," on hearing the latest rumor.

Has anyone got a link to Friday being when Bird and Herb were to meet? I would really like to pinpoint where that came from in as much as we've known for a couple days that they were meeting Tuesday in California.

Myself I'm not completely sold on Vogel. Yes he turned things around, but he came after O'B, so he had the players attention. Under those circumstances I think a lot of coaches could/would have got the team moving.

Now I like the man as a person as well as the rest of you, and I also like his upbeat style. However, the team did have a bump in the road where they lost six straight games under him. Three of those six games were on a west coast road trip. However, Minnesota the team with the worst record in the NBA, and Toronto, the team with the third worst record closed out that 6 game losing streak. So my question is what the heck happened?

From what I understand, that's when the Stephenson uproar happened, and since this was when the team played 5 of 6 games on the road, Vogel and the other coaches would have been with the players pretty much 24/7. If that's the case it appears to me Vogel didn't do to good of a job at that time. I think maybe a firmer hand as coach, someone like O'B, might have been better at that time. (Sorry :p )

Of course things got better, but at that time Vogel had lost a lot of his popularity here on Pacers digest, and people were starting to complain. Plus we did have a five game losing streak later. (Last 2 games of season, plus 3 straight to Chicago)

So the reason I'm not completely sold on Vogel, is I don't know if the locker room righted itself or Vogel had anything to do with it. On the plus side, even if he didn't have anything to do with things getting better, he's young, he probably learned something.

The thing is I'm not in the Pacers locker room, and I'm not behind closed doors with the team, and neither is any of the other hard core fans on this site. We just watch the games and read what goes on. And yes we read and listen to gossip.

The way I feel is this, I would like to see Vogel back as coach, but just on a one year contract. I want to see how he handles himself over a full year.

Some of you hated the way O'B ran things, and I'm telling you right now, if Vogel is hired, some of you are going to be whining and complaining about how he runs things. He is a O'B disciple after all, and some of you are complainers. :p

Bottom line though, I'm not sure Vogel is right for this team. And I suspect other coaches could have gotten the Pacers into the playoffs. So if Bird comes back and doesn't hire Vogel I won't be upset about it. Bird does know what goes on in the locker room and behind closed doors.

Natston
05-06-2011, 04:19 AM
“@MikeWellsNBA: Vogel and Rockets general manager David Morey were together with the Boston Celtics.”

I wouldn't worry until Daryl Morey interviews Vogel... ;)

Constellations
05-06-2011, 04:27 AM
the team did have a bump in the road where they lost six straight games under him. Three of those six games were on a west coast road trip. However, Minnesota the team with the worst record in the NBA, and Toronto, the team with the third worst record closed out that 6 game losing streak. So my question is what the heck happened?

I don't disagree with some things you've said, however, bumps in the road just happen. Whether people agree or not, every team in the NBA is a good team. That's why upsets happen. Lakers lost to the Cavs, the Heat gets blown out by the Pacers, Bulls lose to the Nets, Celtics lose to the Bobcats, bumps for teams happen. Yes, that 6 game losing streak was hard to watch, and work ethic definitley played a huge part in it.

The bad teams of a season rise to the occasion at times. It just so happened to go for 6 times with us being the victim. Like I said, the team's work ethic during that streak was horrid.

You made some great a valid points as well. I don't think Vogel is a disciple of JOB, I believe he is a gem in a solid rock. I also believe that he deserves a chance to show us what he can do with an 82 game season.

Bball
05-06-2011, 04:49 AM
This is what happens when you stick with a coach WAY past his expiration date until you're left with no choice but fire him or face a player and fan mutiny... you end up with a situation where you're stuck trying to figure out if you had an up and coming coach on the bench all along or someone who was fortunate enough to take over for a bad coach who had lost all respect of the players.

And no, I don't completely trust TPTB to make the right decision in this case. They are going to be confused themselves plus the allure of a popular coach willing to work cheap on his first HCing contract will be a factor when that shouldn't have ever been a factor. Let alone players' desires muddying the picture as well. ...and fans too....

Then you have Vogel's paper thin resume'. And then you have his turnaround of the season and winning record as the HC and excellent showing in the playoffs.

Any person that signed off on the idea O'Brien needed an extension/option picked up for his 4th season BEFORE his 3rd season is still pretty questionable in my book when it comes to judging coaches.

It's really a tough call. Vogel has done everything he could to make this a tough call with the turnaround and playoffs. I'm sure the day JOB was fired Bird had other coaching plans for this off-season.

I even wonder if part of the problem is Bird would still like to go with whoever he was considering and Herb is saying "But the players like Frank... the fans like him... he coached us to the playoffs.... and he's not going to cost much"

Will Galen
05-06-2011, 05:08 AM
This is what happens when you stick with a coach WAY past his expiration date until you're left with no choice but fire him or face a player and fan mutiny... you end up with a situation where you're stuck trying to figure out if you had an up and coming coach on the bench all along or someone who was fortunate enough to take over for a bad coach who had lost all respect of the players.

And no, I don't completely trust TPTB to make the right decision in this case. They are going to be confused themselves plus the allure of a popular coach willing to work cheap on his first HCing contract will be a factor when that shouldn't have ever been a factor. Let alone players' desires muddying the picture as well. ...and fans too....

Then you have Vogel's paper thin resume'. And then you have his turnaround of the season and winning record as the HC and excellent showing in the playoffs.

Any person that signed off on the idea O'Brien needed an extension/option picked up for his 4th season BEFORE his 3rd season is still pretty questionable in my book when it comes to judging coaches.

It's really a tough call. Vogel has done everything he could to make this a tough call with the turnaround and playoffs. I'm sure the day JOB was fired Bird had other coaching plans for this off-season.

I even wonder if part of the problem is Bird would still like to go with whoever he was considering and Herb is saying "But the players like Frank... the fans like him... he coached us to the playoffs.... and he's not going to cost much"

Excellent post!

An a really tough call!

The Jackson shimmy
05-06-2011, 05:39 AM
Bringing a coach in for an interview doesn't necessarily indicate a
serious interest in hiring him.

How do we know that this wasn't just Vogel's old colleague (buddy ?),
Morey, doing him a favor to help his leverage with and/or build a
sense of urgency a bit within the Pacers organization ?

mattie
05-06-2011, 06:11 AM
Just to reiterate what has been said a couple times, Frank Vogel is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. He seems like he could be a very promising coach. But, this guy hasn't even coached a full season!! If some other team offers him a job right away and we don't get him? So be it! We cannot afford to blindly hire a former assistance who coached barely over 40 games, esp. since the prior coach was so terrible, my mother could have coached that team.

Constellations
05-06-2011, 06:39 AM
Just to reiterate what has been said a couple times, Frank Vogel is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. He seems like he could be a very promising coach. But, this guy hasn't even coached a full season!! If some other team offers him a job right away and we don't get him? So be it! We cannot afford to blindly hire a former assistance who coached barely over 40 games, esp. since the prior coach was so terrible, my mother could have coached that team.

All this talk of a full season. You think a guy who had a 20-18 half season record and coached a troubled Indiana team, who were supposed to been blown OUT in 4 games I might add, to scare the #1 team in the league and their fans to death won't deliver? I have more faith than that.

Statement: I'm still unsure about hiring him, he hasn't even coached a full season!

Solution: Let him coach one.

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 07:30 AM
extending Vogel before the lockout to me is stupid just kind of a waste of money if we are locked out.


Of all the possibly scenerios what you have outlined is the absolute worst. "Waiting until after the lockout" to do anything that can be done now is a horrible idea. I trust the pacers have zero intentions of waiting until the lockout is over to do anything

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 07:32 AM
Am I the only one who's first thought was "good for Frank"?

That was my reaction exactly.

I will say this, I believe Frank will make an excellent representation of himself in an interview. Would not be surprised if he moves up into the top 3 or 4 - and is on the Rockets short list

McKeyFan
05-06-2011, 07:54 AM
A lot of you guys should join an old women's knitting bee, you'd be right at home repeating gossip, and saying "Oh my god," on hearing the latest rumor.

That is Pacers Digest in a nutshell. Well done, sir.

indygeezer
05-06-2011, 07:55 AM
It's kinda spooky that I agree with everything Wil Galen said. :eek:



Ya gotta have your coach and everything in order if there is a lockout because when it ends you'd better be running when you hit the ground. There will not be time to look for a coach when any lockout ends.

PaceBalls
05-06-2011, 08:42 AM
For those that are saying Frank is not a coach in the mold of Jim...

Frank might not have the same personality and approach with the players that Jim had, but he most certainly is a follower of Jim's strategy, and both of them are Rick Patino proteges. Frank has been mentoring under Jim since he was a senior in college. If anyone can be called Jim's protege, Frank can.

Roaming Gnome
05-06-2011, 08:47 AM
The way I feel is this, I would like to see Vogel back as coach, but just on a one year contract. I want to see how he handles himself over a full year.

I've seen this sentiment a lot... It just isn't very realistic. The most common "short contract" NOT EXTENSION is usually at least 2 years with an option for a 3rd, but commonly it's 3 years with a optional 4th.

As Unclebuck said in another thread.... If you are only looking to give him a one year deal, you don't need to hire him in the first place.

Nothing says, "We have faith in you and we've got your back" like a one year deal. Some of us already believe he's gonna be "green" about putting out locker room situations. Expecting "any" coach to put out locker room fires on a one year deal would be the equivalent of Barney Fife running around with his one bullet in his shirt pocket!

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 08:51 AM
If I were Vogel and the Pacers offered me a one year deal I would laugh and say no thanks and I would make sure that leaked to all the media - Pacers organization would be castigated throughout the NBA.

I think if the Pacers aren't willing to offer him a 3 year guaranteed deal they obviously don't have much faith in him and they should hire someone else.

2 years is borderline slap in the face, if I were Frank I might consider a two year deal if the $$ per year is really good.

And I'm not taking into account that next season might be shortened at the very least.

3 years is pretty standard. Not sure how many coaches over the past ten years have received a two year deal (to start with) I'm sure there have been a few, but I bet it is less than 7 or 8 over the past decade

Will Galen
05-06-2011, 08:54 AM
I've seen this sentiment a lot... It just isn't very realistic. The most common "short contract" NOT EXTENSION is usually at least 2 years with an option for a 3rd, but commonly it's 3 years with a optional 4th.

As Unclebuck said in another thread.... If you are only looking to give him a one year deal, you don't need to him in the first place.

Nothing says, "We have faith in you and we've got your back" like a one year deal.

I thought of suggesting a two year contract because we will probably have a long lockout. It really doesn't matter to me though, the people in charge have more, and better information than we do so I'll go along with what they decide. (GRIN, not that I have a choice in the matter.)

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 09:00 AM
Looking up how long coaches contracts are. A lot of coaches will get a two year extension or a one year extension. But when they are first hired is what I'm looking at.

Hawks hired Larry Drew to a two year deal a year ago
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37654177/sports/player_news

Also John Kuester signed a two year deal with a team option for a third

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/04/25/nba-coach-tracker/

Roaming Gnome
05-06-2011, 09:00 AM
I thought of suggesting a two year contract because we will probably have a long lockout. It really doesn't matter to me though, the people in charge have more, and better information than we do so I'll go along with what they decide. (GRIN, not that I have a choice in the matter.)

I'm sure the FO has a heck of a lot more material to base a decision on than any of us.... (You've already covered that!), and need to just treat this coach as any other coach interviewing for the job. If you have faith that he is deserving of the job AHEAD of the other candidates.... Hire him for a STANDARD term. If the FO doesn't feel that they can't trust him with the STANDARD term.... Hire someone else!


No need for half steppin' because that is just a waste of time for all parties involved!

pacer4ever
05-06-2011, 09:23 AM
Of all the possibly scenerios what you have outlined is the absolute worst. "Waiting until after the lockout" to do anything that can be done now is a horrible idea. I trust the pacers have zero intentions of waiting until the lockout is over to do anything

So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.

Kid Minneapolis
05-06-2011, 09:27 AM
I've seen this sentiment a lot... It just isn't very realistic. The most common "short contract" NOT EXTENSION is usually at least 2 years with an option for a 3rd, but commonly it's 3 years with a optional 4th.

As Unclebuck said in another thread.... If you are only looking to give him a one year deal, you don't need to hire him in the first place.

Nothing says, "We have faith in you and we've got your back" like a one year deal. Some of us already believe he's gonna be "green" about putting out locker room situations. Expecting "any" coach to put out locker room fires on a one year deal would be the equivalent of Barney Fife running around with his one bullet in his shirt pocket!

You don't have to have a 4-year deal to motivate you. I work in an industry where I'm lucky to get a 6-month deal. You just get used to it. It keeps you motivated. I don't expect people to say hey, we have little history with you ---- here's a nice 4-year lucrative deal to show that "we've got your back." Just doesn't work that way. Any contract like that would be one that I have to earn, and that goes beyond a 4 month-stint of impressive work. I'm also an employer, so I also see things from the *other* side, too... I think this is part of the problem with today's sports is these huge, long unwarranted contracts that frequently seem to bite employer's in the butt. Look how many contracts now the Pacers have been shedding that ended up being too much and has moved them out of position to make moves that would improve their business. It's now status quo to give some unproven guy a 4-year multi-million dollar deal because "that's just how it goes these days".

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 09:29 AM
So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.


All I know is the lockout is going to be settled at some point. The players will cave long before the season is lost especially since I think the owners will be reasonable.

But once the lockout is settled (assuming it will be during when the regular season is supposed to be going on) there will be a mad dash to start playing games, short preseason, no time to digest the new CBA - there will be no time to hire a coach. back in 1999 there were no teams without coaches when the lockout ended.

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 09:34 AM
You don't have to have a 4-year deal to motivate you. I work in an industry where I'm lucky to get a 6-month deal. You just get used to it. It keeps you motivated. I don't expect people to say hey, we have little history with you ---- here's a nice 4-year lucrative deal to show that "we've got your back." Just doesn't work that way. I'm also an employer, so I also see things from the *other* side, too... I think this is part of the problem with today's sports is these huge, long contracts that frequently seem to bite employer's in the butt. Look how many contracts now the Pacers have been shedding that ended up being too much and has moved them out of position to make moves that would improve their business.


I work in an industry where I am day to day, minute by minute, they can fire me whenever. Most people have the same thing. What does that have to do with the NBA? Nothing.

In the NBA the lower rung NBA coaches get 3 year deals

Roaming Gnome
05-06-2011, 09:34 AM
So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.

You know.... As soon as there is a whiff that the negotiations are wrapping up, there will not be enough time to hire a coach. In '98, the ball went up within a couple short weeks of having an agreement.

If any owner is that tight that he is going to set his franchise back in that manner, he isn't stable enough to be an owner in ANY major league sport!

Anyway, if you wait till after the lock out to hire someone.... What kind of scraps do you think you're going to get? I'm sure if I were a top flight coach, I'd be wondering what kind of penny ante operation does this sort of thing.... As I refuse the job!

By the way, do you think 2 weeks is enough time for a coach to come in and evaluate his players enough to have an effective game plan then have a training camp to implement such a game plan?

As I mentioned, if Simon or any owner pinches his pennies like that.... They have no business owning a team!

thefeistyone
05-06-2011, 09:40 AM
I've said it many times

the Pacers will regret it if they don't re sign this guy.

The players like him, he has a good vision for the future, and he says all they right things to the press. Don't under estimate that last one..he can get the city behind this team.

Roaming Gnome
05-06-2011, 09:41 AM
You don't have to have a 4-year deal to motivate you. I work in an industry where I'm lucky to get a 6-month deal. You just get used to it. It keeps you motivated. I don't expect people to say hey, we have little history with you ---- here's a nice 4-year lucrative deal to show that "we've got your back." Just doesn't work that way. Any contract like that would be one that I have to earn, and that goes beyond a 4 month-stint of impressive work. I'm also an employer, so I also see things from the *other* side, too... I think this is part of the problem with today's sports is these huge, long unwarranted contracts that frequently seem to bite employer's in the butt. Look how many contracts now the Pacers have been shedding that ended up being too much and has moved them out of position to make moves that would improve their business. It's now status quo to give some unproven guy a 4-year multi-million dollar deal because "that's just how it goes these days".

It's all relative.... Major league professional sports is in no way relative to how we operate in the everyday world!

What Unclebuck just said! Anyway, I'm sure H. Simon doesn't want to do something that Donald Sterling wouldn't even dare do!

Edit:

Also, you have to factor in that you are working against 29 other competitors. If you want to run your franchise with extremely short contracts for anything.... You'll pay through the nose to keep your talent, or just have your talent walk away because there are 29 other teams that are going to give the talent you lost job security. No one ever talks about the good of guaranteed deals. If you got someone that is good or great.... You get to keep him without having him hold out for more money.

CableKC
05-06-2011, 09:47 AM
This is one of the reasons why I think that the FO and Bird should figure out whether to part ways or not. If Bird stays, then it more likely that Vogel stays. If Bird doesn't stay...then it's likely that anyone new coming in will get their own Coach ( unless the New Guy likes Vogel ).

Either way, it's difficult to figure out what to do at the Coaching level without knowing what's happening at the Top.

BillS
05-06-2011, 10:10 AM
The irony is that I think Vogel could actually do better with the Rockets than with the Pacers. The main reason is that he starts from scratch at the top of the food chain, so no one in the organization (including players) has working habits built on him being an assistant. Add to that the talent difference (especially if Yao comes back), and you've got a good situation for a young coach.

I also think you should realize that Adelman has been officially gone for longer than the Pacers' season has been over. The Rockets are farther along in the coaching decision process, so unless the Pacers were to make a stupidly hasty decision they are going to be doing things later than Houston.

Heisenberg
05-06-2011, 10:12 AM
Some guys over at Clutchfans say Adelman could've come back but they wanted him to groom a successor and that they think Morey wouldn't give him any say in moves. We all know how Morey just sees players as sides of an equation. They think a young yes man is what he's after. Hate to say it, but that kinda fits Vogel.

McKeyFan
05-06-2011, 10:27 AM
For those that are saying Frank is not a coach in the mold of Jim...

Frank might not have the same personality and approach with the players that Jim had, but he most certainly is a follower of Jim's strategy, and both of them are Rick Patino proteges. Frank has been mentoring under Jim since he was a senior in college. If anyone can be called Jim's protege, Frank can.
Well, if that's the case, then Frank learned what we learned watching Pitino/O'Brien ball—that it doesn't work.

Frank immediately put an end to quick threes, to voluminous threes, and to bad shot selection.

Can't blame Frank, though, for keeping his mouth shut and collecting a check until such time as he had the power to make the proper changes.

Brad8888
05-06-2011, 11:45 AM
This is one of the reasons why I think that the FO and Bird should figure out whether to part ways or not. If Bird stays, then it more likely that Vogel stays. If Bird doesn't stay...then it's likely that anyone new coming in will get their own Coach ( unless the New Guy likes Vogel ).

Either way, it's difficult to figure out what to do at the Coaching level without knowing what's happening at the Top.

I agree with this.

And, in conjunction with this I believe that Bird is using this as part of his negotiations with Simon about his own future.

Bird had previously said that Vogel would be interviewing with other teams (and said that the Pacers would be interviewing other candidates), but that the Pacers would be interviewing Vogel both first and last with respect to the Pacers' head coaching position.

Bird recognizes that Vogel is riding the wave of both his own refreshing style and the success of the team and, to an extent, his similarity to the ultra popular Brad Stevens. My guess is that Bird is indicating to Simon that he had better hire Bird at whatever Bird's terms are from a spending standpoint as well as a control standpoint so that Bird can go ahead and get Vogel signed before he goes elsewhere, which would take away some of the positive momentum that Vogel has helped create.

vapacersfan
05-06-2011, 12:08 PM
As far as I know everyone working for the Redskins FO is not getting paid during the lockout.

I cannot say for a fact if that is true for our head coach, but I cannot imagine a coach would get paid during a lock-out

As for the issue at hand, meh. The Rockets have interviewed lots of guys, but I do really like Frank

vapacersfan
05-06-2011, 01:09 PM
If I were Vogel and the Pacers offered me a one year deal I would laugh and say no thanks and I would make sure that leaked to all the media - Pacers organization would be castigated throughout the NBA.

I think if the Pacers aren't willing to offer him a 3 year guaranteed deal they obviously don't have much faith in him and they should hire someone else.

2 years is borderline slap in the face, if I were Frank I might consider a two year deal if the $$ per year is really good.

And I'm not taking into account that next season might be shortened at the very least.

3 years is pretty standard. Not sure how many coaches over the past ten years have received a two year deal (to start with) I'm sure there have been a few, but I bet it is less than 7 or 8 over the past decade

Or they would say "oh well, prove yourself kid"....................

EDIT: I would not accept a 1 year deal if I was in his position, but to act like its some kind insult is a bit weird to me. He still has to prove himself, and while I think he did a great job in the situation he was in, a case could be made (bball and Will did it better then I could) that he was simply in the right place at the right time (and in no way am I faulting him for that)

Heisenberg
05-06-2011, 01:10 PM
What was JOB making, $3.5mm a year right? So what do we think's realistic for Vogel? 2? 2.5?

pacer4ever
05-06-2011, 01:12 PM
What was JOB making, $3.5mm a year right? So what do we think's realistic for Vogel? 2? 2.5?

Wells said about 1m maybe even cheaper they said he would be by far the cheapest option it was in a radio interview where he said that.

Heisenberg
05-06-2011, 01:14 PM
Wells said about 1m maybe even cheaper they said he would be by far the cheapest option it was in a radio interview where he said that.
I don't doubt Vogel's the cheapest option, but saying he'd take a million per sounds like out his butt talk to me. That'd have to make him by far the cheapest coach in the league.

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 01:19 PM
Larry Drew makes $1.3M and that is the lowest in the NBA.

Sookie
05-06-2011, 01:19 PM
Buck's addressed this issue numerous times, but you have to have a coach in place during the lockout for a variety of reasons.

Am I the only one who's first thought was "good for Frank"?

Honestly, I want Frank to be the Pacers coach.

But first and foremost, I like the guy, I think he's earned a head coaching job, and I want him to have a coaching job. It'll suck if it isn't with the Pacers...but at least he's got other options.

vapacersfan
05-06-2011, 01:22 PM
If Frank took less then a mill.....his agent should be smacked.........then fired

Heisenberg
05-06-2011, 01:22 PM
Larry Drew makes $1.3M and that is the lowest in the NBA.
And Drew, albeit tenuously, had a weaker resume than Vogel when he signed his deal.

MyFavMartin
05-06-2011, 02:15 PM
He's not a micromanager like Carlisle, he's not a negative, unconsolable coach like JOB, and he's not a piece of cr*p like Isaiah. What are we waiting for?

gummy
05-06-2011, 02:56 PM
Less than a million a year for a head coaching job in the NBA? Insulting. I doubt that will happen.

NapTonius Monk
05-06-2011, 03:04 PM
Expecting "any" coach to put out locker room fires on a one year deal would be the equivalent of Barney Fife running around with his one bullet in his shirt pocket!
http://demotivatorsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/celebrity-pictures-don-knotts-real-men.jpg

NapTonius Monk
05-06-2011, 03:13 PM
I've said it many times

the Pacers will regret it if they don't re sign this guy.Because Frank will do good elsewhere? I hope he does good wherever he goes, but I hope the only reason they don't go with him is because they've found someone better. Only time will tell.

Kid Minneapolis
05-06-2011, 04:18 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6487916


"...sources told ESPN.com that [Mavericks assistant coach Dwane] Casey and Boston Celtics (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/bos/boston-celtics) assistant coach Lawrence Frank have emerged as two of Houston's most serious targets. Although it's believed that the Rockets have not yet narrowed their search to finalists, sources say they have made prior NBA head-coaching experience a prerequisite for the job."

The article also mentions interviewing Vogel, and they've also interviewed others, but seems Casey is at the top of their list.

graphic-er
05-06-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm beginning to think Pacers Digest will suffer a meltdown if Vogel isn't retained. There will be posters denouncing their fandom, only to return once the draft comes around.

NapTonius Monk
05-06-2011, 05:06 PM
I'm beginning to think Pacers Digest will suffer a meltdown if Vogel isn't retained. There will be posters denouncing their fandom, only to return once the draft comes around.
:laugh:

xBulletproof
05-06-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm beginning to think Pacers Digest will suffer a meltdown if Vogel isn't retained. There will be posters denouncing their fandom, only to return once the draft comes around.

You act as though that's different than anytime a decision of any kind is made. The people who don't like it usually blow up.

pwee31
05-06-2011, 06:53 PM
I found it enjoyable that the Rockets have interviewed multiple head coaches, but PTI chose to talk about Vogel interviewing for Rockets job today.

Wilbon said he thought both teams had good rosters and called it about even

Tom White
05-06-2011, 07:17 PM
So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.

I don't want to pick on your listed age, but please get some more experience in real world dealings with businesses and people in general (on a professional level) before thinking something like you've suggested would have a chance in heck of getting you anything other than laughed at.

Naptown_Seth
05-07-2011, 01:17 AM
No one ever talks about the good of guaranteed deals. If you got someone that is good or great.... You get to keep him without having him hold out for more money.
That's why I always hated the whining about the length of the JO/Tins/etc deals.

If those guys were Jordan and Pippen and you signed them for 2 years only to see Miami or NY snatch them up you'd look like an idiot.

Giving Kobe or Lebron a "lifetime" deal would be considered the smart thing. It's only when a guy struggles that the deal suddenly becomes a bad idea.

Like anything you just need to be smart and lucky, and you can't confuse unlucky with dumb if you are criticizing from the outside. Maybe TPTB should have known better than to personally trust those guys, maybe we caught a bad break when JO's knee went the wrong direction, but there was a time when they were 2-2 vs Detroit in the ECF coming off a revenge drubbing of the Pistons at the Palace (83-68) with home court advantage through the Finals that those long term deals looked like a monster dynasty in the making and no one was saying they were mistakes.

joeyd
05-07-2011, 01:44 AM
Don't expect any resolution to Vogel's situation in the very immediate future. The wifey flew off to FL today and Frank and his family were on the same plane.

Don't know quite what it means in terms of salary he earned or will command, but for those wanting to know, he flew coach, like us regular guys and gals.

Will Galen
05-07-2011, 04:01 AM
Don't expect any resolution to Vogel's situation in the very immediate future. The wifey flew off to FL today and Frank and his family were on the same plane.

Don't know quite what it means in terms of salary he earned or will command, but for those wanting to know, he flew coach, like us regular guys and gals.

Probably taking a vacation.

As for the immediate future, Larry would not have any trouble hiring him over the phone. (grin)

However, even if Bird comes back and hires him it will still take awhile. Bird wants to interview other people for the job. Vogel will still get the last interview. I think it's then Bird will either hire him or tell him he's going to hire someone else.

Unclebuck
05-09-2011, 08:48 AM
Looks like Vogel is not among the three finalists

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/7556176.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+houstonchronicle%2Fspbkbkn+%2 8HoustonChronicle.com+--+NBA+Basketball%29&utm_content=Google+Reader


Commentary

McHale an intriguing gamble if Morey's willing to roll the dice

By RICHARD JUSTICE
Copyright 2011 Houston Chronicle

When Rockets general manager Daryl Morey is asked about the qualities he's looking for in a head coach, he almost always begins with the same simple phrase.

"A leader of men."
If that's true, this will be an especially tough hire for someone who believes data — that is, data collected, studied and interpreted - offers the best assessment for rosters, strategy, coaching, etc.

If that's true, this will be an especially tough hire for someone who believes data - that is, data collected, studied and interpreted - offers the best assessment for rosters, strategy, coaching, etc.

Problem is, there may not be enough data on earth to measure leadership and to figure out why some men can lead a group of men and others can't.

With the Rockets' search for a new coach focused on three finalists - Lawrence Frank, Dwane Casey and Kevin McHale - Morey's ultimate recommendation to owner Leslie Alexander might not come down to something that shows up on a spreadsheet.

I'm guessing Morey's head - and his spreadsheet - are telling him to hire Frank, a Celtics assistant who has far more head coaching experience than the other two candidates combined and is respected around the NBA for his preparation, organization and intelligence.
Frank, 40, led the Nets to four playoff appearances and seems to be something of a Jeff Van Gundy clone in the thoroughness and seriousness with which he approaches the job. He compiled a 225-241 record as a head coach. Alexander's first two coaching hires were Van Gundy and Rick Adelman, so he clearly values experience.

Casey, 54, would also be a conventional hire. He's a longtime NBA guy and highly regarded. He's only 53-69 in his time as a head coach, but he was put in a tough situation with the Timberwolves.

'An NBA survivor'

He also coached in Japan for five years and worked as an assistant for George Karl and Nate McMillan before joining Rick Carlisle's staff in Dallas. He's an NBA survivor, a favorite of almost everyone who knows him. His range of experience leaves few holes in his résumé .
And there's McHale.

He's the tough call. He's the unusual call. He's the guy who could make a general manager look brilliant. Or get him fired.

When Morey parted ways with Adelman, he understood he might have been putting his job on the line. Bringing Adelman back would have been the safe move.

"But," Morey said, "why have this job if you're not willing to take a chance?"

Hiring McHale would be taking a huge chance. He's 53 and has little head coaching experience - 39-55 during two interim stints with the Timberwolves.

His coaching work has received much kinder reviews than his work as a general manager, but McHale hasn't distinguished himself in either job. In an interesting twist, it was his poor decisions as a general manager that doomed him to fail as a coach.

When McHale was fired by the Timberwolves two years ago, some thought he might retreat to his Minnesota cabin and never return. Now he's tanned, rested and ready to give it another go, and even though there are about eight dozen really good reasons not to hire him, he has something that may be more important than all the X's and O's in the world combined.

McHale has presence. He's 6-10 and carries himself with the confidence of a guy who was a three-time NBA champion and one of the league's 50 best players ever.

He has people skills, too, and is instantly likable and relentlessly positive. As a coach, he excelled as a teacher of fundamentals and was highly regarded by his players.

The thing that makes him a risk is that most of his NBA experience has been as a player or front-office executive. But his buddy, Larry Bird, was a successful head coach because he understood the things he didn't know. He surrounded himself with people to help with scouting reports, strategy and the like.

Alexander gets final say

Bird brought to the table an impressive résumé and an understanding of what players want. McHale could be like that. His force of personality and experience as a star player make him an intriguing candidate.

He's exactly the kind of unconventional candidate who might appeal to an unconventional general manager. He could also chase Morey right back to computer lab.

Ultimately, the decision will be Alexander's. His previous coaching hires were safe choices, and McHale would be anything but.

The Rockets have missed the playoffs for two straight years, but with salary-cap room, two first-round draft picks and a nice core of vet-erans, Morey will for the first time have an opportunity to upgrade the roster.

He has been fearless about taking chances on players in his four years on the job. Is he willing to gamble on a coach as well? In the end, that's what this search ap-pears to have come down to.
richard.justice@chron.com (richard.justice@chron.com)

Mackey_Rose
05-09-2011, 09:42 AM
With the Rockets' search for a new coach focused on three finalists - Lawrence Frank, Dwane Casey and Kevin McHale - Morey's ultimate recommendation to owner Leslie Alexander might not come down to something that shows up on a spreadsheet.

I don't think it is any surprise that Vogel is no longer being considered. If he's getting a head job this summer, it's going to be here. He just doesn't have the pedigree yet to warrant serious consideration for a different organization. I'd question if he has the pedigree to warrant serious consideration from this organization, but the Vogelphiles will obviously disagree. If he doesn't get this job, which I don't believe he will, he'll more than likely get a lead assistant role with a bigger name head coach in a different city.

This is a few days old, and may have already been mentioned, but I haven't seen it.

I think the bigger news is Mike Brown removing his name from the hat for the Rockets' job. It would not surprise me one bit if he's holding out for the Pacers' job, knowing that the Pacers will give him a very hard look. I'm going to make an educated guess, and say Brown is the clear front runner to be the next Pacers' head coach.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/38292/nba-with-ric-bucher


Seeing these Frank Vogel - Houston reports floating around, do you think the Pacers move in and make an offer to him? Or is this indicative that the Pacers are looking elsewhere?

Ric Bucher (1:30 PM)


From what i've heard, Frank is not at the top of their list, even though it seems likely that Bird is staying. Hard to see Houston jumping out on Vogel -- competition isn't that stiff. Rockets were hoping Stan Van Gundy would get bounced (or let's say some people were pushing the Rockets hard to go after SVG if he got bounced) but the latest I've heard is that Dwane Casey is a strong option with Mike Brown taking himself out of the running.

Unclebuck
05-09-2011, 09:54 AM
I don't think it is any surprise that Vogel is no longer being considered. If he's getting a head job this summer, it's going to be here. He just doesn't have the pedigree yet to warrant serious consideration for a different organization. I'd question if he has the pedigree to warrant serious consideration from this organization, but the Vogelphiles will obviously disagree. If he doesn't get this job, which I don't believe he will, he'll more than likely get a lead assistant role with a bigger name head coach in a different city.

This is a few days old, and may have already been mentioned, but I haven't seen it.

I think the bigger news is Mike Brown removing his name from the hat for the Rockets' job. It would not surprise me one bit if he's holding out for the Pacers' job, knowing that the Pacers will give him a very hard look. I'm going to make an educated guess, and say Brown is the clear front runner to be the next Pacers' head coach.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/38292/nba-with-ric-bucher

Yes, I see Vogel getting a nice pay increase and clearly being a lead assistant somewhere.

Interesting that even if Bird stays Vogel is not the guy Bird wants to be the head coach.

Reading between the lines it appears Mike Brown is the guy - I am more than fine with that. And he'll bring in his own assistants. Wonder if Vogel would be a candidate for that under brown here.

Mackey_Rose
05-09-2011, 10:00 AM
OK, so Bucher is saying that Brown has taken himself out of the running for the Rockets job? Just a little confusing, is he saying that Vogel is not the frontrunner to get the job here?

Bucher is saying that Brown removed himself from the Rocket's head coaching race. He is also saying that Vogel is not at the top of the Pacers' candidate list.

So yes, he's saying both things.

Here's the only other thing I could find that mentions it, and it quotes the same chat from Bucher.

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2011/05/06/mike.brown.takes.himself.out.running.rockets.head. coach.position


Mike Brown has officially dropped out of the race for the Houston Rockets head coaching job. Brown, who lead the Cleveland Cavaliers to two straight 60 win seasons from 2008-2010, is also being considered by the Golden State Warriors and Indiana Pacers for their head coaching positions. The Rockets were very high on Brown, but they now have to look elswhere for a head coach.

According to Ric Bucher from ESPN.com:


Jackson (NYC)
Seeing these Frank Vogel - Houston reports floating around, do you think the Pacers move in and make an offer to him? Or is this indicative that the Pacers are looking elsewhere?

Ric Bucher
From what i've heard, Frank is not at the top of their list, even though it seems likely that Bird is staying. Hard to see Houston jumping out on Vogel -- competition isn't that stiff. Rockets were hoping Stan Van Gundy would get bounced (or let's say some people were pushing the Rockets hard to go after SVG if he got bounced) but the latest I've heard is that Dwane Casey is a strong option with Mike Brown taking himself out of the running.

Unclebuck
05-09-2011, 10:05 AM
What are the possible reasons he dropped out of getting the Rockets job when it appeared as though that is who the Rockets wanted. Mackey - I think you are correct probably means he wants to come here. Unless Brown thinks he is a strong candidate for the Lakers job. Nothing keeping the Lakers from letting Brown know that he is on their short list.

or maybe Brown has decided he wants to take another year off. I doubt that though.

RWB
05-09-2011, 10:05 AM
That Laker job would look pretty enticing too.

Mackey_Rose
05-09-2011, 10:15 AM
I can't see the Lakers considering Brown, but if they do, that will change things for him entirely.

docpaul
05-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Mackey, I think your read on things is on point.

I do wonder where some of the outlier candidates like the Rifleman (Person) and Dwane Casey sit in Bird's mind?

If Mike Brown is seriously interested in this job, that gives a fan like me a tinge of a good feeling that he passed on the Rockets opportunity to prioritize this job.

I continue to pray that we really do a thorough interview process that involves the players and considers at least 3-4 options in addition to Vogel.

Love what Vogel did, but not foolhardy to look myopically at our options because of this.

If Vogel passes this level of comparison, then I'm totally supportive and happy to see him here. IMO, a lot of signs point to him not getting the job. Would love to see him continuing to be a part of the team though.

wintermute
05-09-2011, 10:52 AM
So wait, this whole line of speculation is based on Bucher's chats?



Ric Bucher
(1:24 PM)

I've seen Frank's work up close. He's very impressive. If the Pacers change their front office, which I'm hearing they are likely to do, then it would stand to reason that the new regime would want to select the coach. But Vogel is as solid and composed in huddles as any coach I've seen. He's made a few questionable decisions, but he deserves a shot at being more than an interim. If not in Indy, somewhere else.




Ric Bucher
(1:30 PM)

From what i've heard, Frank is not at the top of their list, even though it seems likely that Bird is staying. Hard to see Houston jumping out on Vogel -- competition isn't that stiff. Rockets were hoping Stan Van Gundy would get bounced (or let's say some people were pushing the Rockets hard to go after SVG if he got bounced) but the latest I've heard is that Dwane Casey is a strong option with Mike Brown taking himself out of the running.


Granted, things might have changed in between the chats, but you'd think a journalist would acknowledge that. I'm seriously wondering where Bucher is hearing these things.

Mackey_Rose
05-09-2011, 11:07 AM
So wait, this whole line of speculation is based on Bucher's chats?

Granted, things might have changed in between the chats, but you'd think a journalist would acknowledge that. I'm seriously wondering where Bucher is hearing these things.

I've been one of many speculating Mike Brown to be the guy for some time. This is just a little validation for that speculation.

Obviously, nothing is guaranteed at this point. Many variables are in play.

Sookie
05-09-2011, 11:36 AM
:(

I really think Vogel earned the job.

Unclebuck
05-09-2011, 11:44 AM
:(

I really think Vogel earned the job.


he probably did. But put yourself in Bird's shoes. What if he likes the job Vogel did but he just thinks Mike brown is a better coach, that Mike Brown is one of the top 4 or 5 coaches in the NBA.

I'm not asking you to agree with Bird, but for this discussion, lets say you do, and if the owner will pay enough to get Brown and he wants to come here, don't you have to hire him.

The GM's job is on the line so heneeds to get the best possible coach (in his estimation) that he can.

The Sleeze
05-09-2011, 12:05 PM
When I heard about Mike Brown taking his name out of the running for the Rockets job, my first thought was he wants the Lakers gig.

But more and more reports lean to the Lakers going with Brian Shaw since he knows Phil's coaching style and the triangle offense so well. Plus Phil himself has stated he would like one of his assistants to take over.

So if Mike Brown is privy to all of this, maybe he is holding out for the Pacers job......which would be pretty sweet in my opinion. I like Vogel, but it would be hard to turn down Brown if he wants the job.

BillS
05-09-2011, 12:09 PM
Interesting that even if Bird stays Vogel is not the guy Bird wants to be the head coach.

We're extrapolating a line in a chat as a report from the source again. Bucher <i>says</i> Vogel is not the guy Bird wants. We should be careful not to start thinking that Bird said this somewhere.

Mackey_Rose
05-09-2011, 12:11 PM
We're extrapolating a line in a chat as a report from the source again. Bucher <i>says</i> Vogel is not the guy Bird wants. We should be careful not to start thinking that Bird said this somewhere.

If Bird knew that Vogel was the guy he wanted, he would have already been hired on.

pacer4ever
05-09-2011, 12:12 PM
I can't see the Lakers considering Brown, but if they do, that will change things for him entirely.

Brian Shaw should be the coach in LA

BillS
05-09-2011, 12:14 PM
If Bird knew that Vogel was the guy he wanted, he would have already been hired on.

Not knowing before interviews that Vogel IS the guy is not the same as knowing before interviews that Vogel is NOT the guy.

I can't believe how many people are acting like due diligence to see who else is available and talk to them is some kind of insult or indication of a decision already made. There's no urgency in this hiring, why rush?

HC
05-09-2011, 12:30 PM
We don't even know for sure that Bird is coming back at this point. What would incline someone to think that under these circumstances Vogel would've already been hired if he was in fact the wanted man.

TMJ31
05-09-2011, 12:44 PM
But put yourself in Bird's shoes. What if he likes the job Vogel did but he just thinks Mike brown is a better coach, that Mike Brown is one of the top 4 or 5 coaches in the NBA.



I am only speaking for myself here, but even if what you say is true and Bird does feel Mike Brown is a top tier coach, it shouldn't change anything.

Unless there were some things going on behind the scenes that we NEVER even got a whiff of, it should be abundantly clear that Vogel captured the hearts and minds of this team and got them to play at a MUCH higher level than they "should have". Especially in their playoff series.

Am I saying Mike Brown is a bad choice for head coach? Absolutely not! I like Mike Brown.

All I mean is that it should be very obvious that for OUR GUYS, Frank Vogel is THE man for the job right now. He has the perfect mixture of youth, determination, motivation and the ability to empathize and relate to his players that you simply cannot go out and hire elsewhere.

He has been in the trenches with the majority of our core roster for nearly their entire careers (as an assistant), Danny and a few others being the exception.

THAT is what makes him such a great candidate for our HC job, not his X's and O's versus the next candidates.

I still don't understand why more Pacers fans don't feel this way?

After all the years recently of fielding teams who didn't seem to care or give it their all or play with passion... We finally find a guy who brings that out of them for half a season in an interim role and then we DON'T want to re-hire him?!!? Because some other coach has been around the block a few more times?!

I don't get it...

LetsTalkPacers
05-09-2011, 12:44 PM
Vogel or no Vogel. I dont want Brown. I think it will be a mistake. I will be happy to eat crow, but doubt I will.

Mackey_Rose
05-09-2011, 12:58 PM
Not knowing before interviews that Vogel IS the guy is not the same as knowing before interviews that Vogel is NOT the guy.

I can't believe how many people are acting like due diligence to see who else is available and talk to them is some kind of insult or indication of a decision already made. There's no urgency in this hiring, why rush?

Yeah, those things are not the same. That's also not what I said. Vogel is still one of the top candidates for the job. Bucher says he is not the top candidate, and I don't believe that he ever was, or even should have been.

For this team, Vogel's best attribute was that he wasn't Jim O'Brien. I'm not saying any bum off the street could have gotten the same results, but the coaching change, for the sake of making a change (which is all Vogel's initial promotion was) was the biggest factor in the team's improvement toward the end of the season. Obviously, there were huge strategic changes, and better tactical adjustments that came with the change, but pretty much any coach worth his salt could have seen the need to make those moves. They were obvious, common sense decisions. They were not brilliant basketball decisions.

I don't believe it is any kind of insult for the Pacers to interview other candidates. Vogel doesn't have the background to make him worthy of us not looking into other names. He did a good job in his interim role, but there is a reason that the term interim was attached to his job title. He hasn't earned the full-time gig yet.

There is no rush to make this decision. I've said as much. I'm fine with the decision if we decide to retain Vogel. I'm fine with the decision if we decide to go in another direction. Vogel is still going to be out there for us. He is a perfect fall-back option if there are other candidates that we like. If we bring in somebody like Brown, or Adelman for interviews and it doesn't work out. Great, we still have Vogel. If we bring in Brown and Adelman for an interview and their is a high level of mutual interest, we can keep pursuing it. If it falls through at the end, great, we still have Vogel.

It's a fluid situation, I'm just making the educated guess that Brown is the front runner. Vogel is probably a close second in the race. Nobody is declaring the race over.

Sookie
05-09-2011, 12:59 PM
he probably did. But put yourself in Bird's shoes. What if he likes the job Vogel did but he just thinks Mike brown is a better coach, that Mike Brown is one of the top 4 or 5 coaches in the NBA.

I'm not asking you to agree with Bird, but for this discussion, lets say you do, and if the owner will pay enough to get Brown and he wants to come here, don't you have to hire him.

The GM's job is on the line so heneeds to get the best possible coach (in his estimation) that he can.

I understand where Bird is coming from, if he thinks Brown is the right guy.

I just personally happen to think Vogel is the right guy. I haven't seen Brown do anything other than the Lebron years. And those years, the guy was more a babysitter than a coach.

To be honest, the only reason why I want Bird back is because Vogel has a much better chance of getting the job with Bird than with a different GM. I understand interviewing other candidates. That's the correct thing to do. But I really don't think Brown is a better candidate for this team than Vogel. The players love him. He can clearly motivate them. With the exception of a few rookie mistakes, he's done well at a basketball level. And most of the guys on this team are young, and consistency means a lot to them.

The biggest question mark for me, with Vogel. Is offense. But that's the biggest question mark for me with Brown too.

BillS
05-09-2011, 01:38 PM
Yeah, those things are not the same. That's also not what I said. Vogel is still one of the top candidates for the job. Bucher says he is not the top candidate, and I don't believe that he ever was, or even should have been.

OK, I think I misunderstood what you meant. It sounds like we're agreeing.

Kraft
05-09-2011, 01:56 PM
I haven't seen Brown do anything other than the Lebron years. And those years, the guy was more a babysitter than a coach.

Well, those are his only years as a head coach. I'm not sure what you're expecting.

This babysitter notion is nonsense. Do people really think they made the Finals with a do-nothing coach? Do people think he won 66 games and was COY by doing nothing in 2008-09?

It was all LeBron? Really?

I don't think Mike Brown is a top-five coach by any means, but to discount a guy because he had a star player is ludicrous ... especially when supporting a guy who hasn't coached a full NBA season.

I like Vogel and Brown, and can understand arguments for both.

IUfan4life
05-09-2011, 02:00 PM
Mike Brown will be an awful hire

Eleazar
05-09-2011, 02:09 PM
I understand where Bird is coming from, if he thinks Brown is the right guy.


I can't. I can understand if Bird would rather have one of a couple proven hall of fame coaches that might be on the market this summer, but not someone who has only coached LeBron.

presto123
05-09-2011, 02:09 PM
You don't want Vogel..........bye bye Larry.

CableKC
05-09-2011, 02:35 PM
Everyone has been saying that all the Players will walk through a wall for Vogel....but how do we know that they won't do the same ( eventually ) for Mike Brown. I've never gotten the impression that Mike Brown was not a "Players Coach".

Trophy
05-09-2011, 02:59 PM
Vogel is the right guy for THIS team.

Mike Brown isn't bad, but he's not going to develop players and get on their level like Vogel has.

I don't know what Bird sees in Brown and what he can do for this team better than what Vogel did. The players want him back, they liked him and respected him, he loved being the coach.

This will be a big mistake letting Vogel go.

IMO, he's the right coach for this young, up and coming team.

Will Galen
05-09-2011, 03:01 PM
If Bird knew that Vogel was the guy he wanted, he would have already been hired on.

I disagree. Bird would only do that if he knew he himself was coming back. As is he wants to come back but wants to talk to Herb first obviously to see if he can do things his way.

I think he wants someone else. (Brown or Casey is the speculation) However Herb might tell Bird he can hire who he wants as long as it's not over a certain amount of money.

That being the case Brown and Casey might not want the job for what Bird can offer, thus Vogel would get the job.



For this team, Vogel's best attribute was that he wasn't Jim O'Brien. I'm not saying any bum off the street could have gotten the same results, but the coaching change, for the sake of making a change (which is all Vogel's initial promotion was) was the biggest factor in the team's improvement toward the end of the season. Obviously, there were huge strategic changes, and better tactical adjustments that came with the change, but pretty much any coach worth his salt could have seen the need to make those moves. They were obvious, common sense decisions. They were not brilliant basketball decisions.


Excellent post! This is what I'm thinking.

Unclebuck
05-09-2011, 03:02 PM
Vogel is the right guy for THIS team.

Mike Brown isn't bad, but he's not going to develop players and get on their level like Vogel has.

I don't know what Bird sees in Brown and what he can do for this team better than what Vogel did. The players want him back, they liked him and respected him, he loved being the coach.

IMO, he's the right coach for this young, up and coming team.


I mentioned this in another thread, but my question is how many of these current players will be here in 17 months, - October 2012. I would argue only 4 or 5 of the current players will be here as we enter that new season. So I think it is a mistake to hire a coach based on who would be better with these current players. No matter who the coaches are involved. I think you hire the best coach possible.

Trophy
05-09-2011, 03:08 PM
I mentioned this in another thread, but my question is how many of these current players will be here in 17 months, - October 2012. I would argue only 4 or 5 of the current players will be here as we enter that new season. So I think it is a mistake to hire a coach based on who would be better with these current players. No matter who the coaches are involved. I think you hire the best coach possible.

I'm not going to disagree with you there and frankly, if it's not Vogel, Brown is probably my alternative choice.

Looking at where this team is heading, young and upcoming, Vogel is probably the best choice to coach the team. Not just with this current Pacers team, but he'd probably do well with any young team on the rise like Houston.

Now going down a different route, if we bring in some solid pieces via cap space (a veteran Nene), then Mike Brown might be a better choice to coach a better core.

So, I'm glad Bird is keeping all options open. He has Vogel as a strong candidate. He's most likely getting the first interview. I just hope he chooses wisely and who will be the best fit long term with some of these young players who are still improving.

90'sNBARocked
05-09-2011, 03:10 PM
If Bird knew that Vogel was the guy he wanted, he would have already been hired on.

I kind of think that way as well

Its not like any of the remaining coaches currently in the playoffs are under consideration

docpaul
05-09-2011, 03:19 PM
I'm not going to disagree with you there and frankly, if it's not Vogel, Brown is probably my alternative choice.

Looking at where this team is heading, young and upcoming, Vogel is probably the best choice to coach the team. Not just with this current Pacers team, but he'd probably do well with any young team on the rise like Houston.

Now going down a different route, if we bring in some solid pieces via cap space (a veteran Nene), then Mike Brown might be a better choice to coach a better core.

So, I'm glad Bird is keeping all options open. He has Vogel as a strong candidate. He's most likely getting the first interview. I just hope he chooses wisely and who will be the best fit long term with some of these young players who are still improving.

This strikes me that you're making a decision from your heart, and not your head.

If we go through a formal interview process, and Vogel is the final selection, I'll be thrilled, because *both* my head and heart will be satisfied. :)

BringJackBack
05-09-2011, 03:23 PM
George/Dahntay on Rose wasn't a 'brilliant' decision and more of a 'common sense' one?

Trophy
05-09-2011, 03:24 PM
This strikes me that you're making a decision from your heart, and not your head.

If we go through a formal interview process, and Vogel is the final selection, I'll be thrilled, because *both* my head and heart will be satisfied. :)

If we're talking interviews and Bird has some certain things in mind like who he plans on bringing in with the cap space, then Brown might be the better guy.

For the guys who are here already, they pretty much know Vogel's system, but for a guy like Nene for instance, he might not be the type who would do well in Vogel's system to develop players as opposed to Brown's who is probably best for a better core with better players.

Will Galen
05-09-2011, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE=Trophy;1232019]Vogel is the right guy for THIS team.

Mike Brown isn't bad, but he's not going to develop players and get on their level like Vogel has.

I don't know what Bird sees in Brown and what he can do for this team better than what Vogel did. The players want him back, they liked him and respected him, he loved being the coach.

You're a fan like the rest of us here on the Digest. You see what goes on in games and read articles and internet rumors about the Pacers like the rest of us. We don't have the same knowledge base as Bird. He knows both coaches personally. He knows all the players and their personality's and he's knows the behind closed doors stuff too.

This will be a big mistake letting Vogel go.

You don't know that he is gone. If Bird comes back and hires someone else though, I do know Bird will have more information to go on that what we fans do.

Think about this possibility. Vogel said he talked to Bird every day. So were the changes he made his ideas or Birds? We don't know do we? However Bird does.

I'll be happy with Vogel if Bird rehires him, but I'm not going to second guess him if he hires someone else.

Sookie
05-09-2011, 03:41 PM
Well, those are his only years as a head coach. I'm not sure what you're expecting.

This babysitter notion is nonsense. Do people really think they made the Finals with a do-nothing coach? Do people think he won 66 games and was COY by doing nothing in 2008-09?

It was all LeBron? Really?

I don't think Mike Brown is a top-five coach by any means, but to discount a guy because he had a star player is ludicrous ... especially when supporting a guy who hasn't coached a full NBA season.

I like Vogel and Brown, and can understand arguments for both.

That's what I mean, I didn't know if he had done anything else.

And if that's the case, than I'll definitely take Vogel.

Unclebuck
05-09-2011, 03:58 PM
George/Dahntay on Rose wasn't a 'brilliant' decision and more of a 'common sense' one?


I think everyone knew that Collison would not be able to "guard him". That was obvious. So that was a no-brainer. The question is do you change the starting lineup to include Jones or maybe Rush so one of those two could have started defending Rose? or do you go with George. And then do you try price on him at all.

I would say Frank made the correct coaching decision, it wasn't a brilliant decision, but then how many brilliant decisions do coaches really make.

pacer4ever
05-09-2011, 04:01 PM
I think everyone knew that Collison would not be able to "guard him". That was obvious. So that was a no-brainer. The question is do you change the starting lineup to include Jones or maybe Rush so one of those two could have started defending Rose? or do you go with George. And then do you try price on him at all.

I would say Frank made the correct coaching decision, it wasn't a brilliant decision, but then how many brilliant decisions do coaches really make.

Everyone except JOB!!!

CableKC
05-09-2011, 04:04 PM
Vogel is the right guy for THIS team.

Mike Brown isn't bad, but he's not going to develop players and get on their level like Vogel has.

I don't know what Bird sees in Brown and what he can do for this team better than what Vogel did. The players want him back, they liked him and respected him, he loved being the coach.

This will be a big mistake letting Vogel go.

IMO, he's the right coach for this young, up and coming team.
How do you know that Mike Brown will not develop the Players to the level that Vogel has?

Trophy
05-09-2011, 04:05 PM
Vogel is the right guy for THIS team.

Mike Brown isn't bad, but he's not going to develop players and get on their level like Vogel has.

I don't know what Bird sees in Brown and what he can do for this team better than what Vogel did. The players want him back, they liked him and respected him, he loved being the coach.

You're a fan like the rest of us here on the Digest. You see what goes on in games and read articles and internet rumors about the Pacers like the rest of us. We don't have the same knowledge base as Bird. He knows both coaches personally. He knows all the players and their personality's and he's knows the behind closed doors stuff too.

This will be a big mistake letting Vogel go.

You don't know that he is gone. If Bird comes back and hires someone else though, I do know Bird will have more information to go on that what we fans do.

Think about this possibility. Vogel said he talked to Bird every day. So were the changes he made his ideas or Birds? We don't know do we? However Bird does.

I'll be happy with Vogel if Bird rehires him, but I'm not going to second guess him if he hires someone else.

I agree with you.

If Bird believes the players he's hoping to bring in won't fit in with Vogel and more so under Brown, then that's where I feel like it might be a good choice.

Roaming Gnome
05-09-2011, 04:09 PM
I kind of mentioned this in the Vogel/Brown thread.

What if say.... A new GM/PBO is brought on and Vogel or M. Brown isn't "his guy", but an assistant from a team we are not familiar with "IS" his guy.....

Are we all setting ourselves up for disappointment?

Will Galen
05-09-2011, 05:02 PM
I kind of mentioned this in the Vogel/Brown thread.

What if say.... A new GM/PBO is brought on and Vogel or M. Brown isn't "his guy", but an assistant from a team we are not familiar with "IS" his guy.....

Are we all setting ourselves up for disappointment?

I'm practical, I'll wait and see what the results are.

I know first results can be misleading though. A new coach would probably changes things so when I say wait, I mean for at least a season.

I remember when Tinsley first started out. He had 23 assists in one of his first games and had the Digest buzzing.

Peck
05-09-2011, 06:00 PM
I'm practical, I'll wait and see what the results are.

I know first results can be misleading though. A new coach would probably changes things so when I say wait, I mean for at least a season.

I remember when Tinsley first started out. He had 23 assists in one of his first games and had the Digest buzzing.

You've been out in the sun to long. The Digest didn't even exist then.:-p

Eleazar
05-09-2011, 06:11 PM
I think everyone knew that Collison would not be able to "guard him". That was obvious. So that was a no-brainer. The question is do you change the starting lineup to include Jones or maybe Rush so one of those two could have started defending Rose? or do you go with George. And then do you try price on him at all.

I would say Frank made the correct coaching decision, it wasn't a brilliant decision, but then how many brilliant decisions do coaches really make.

I agree. Being a good or great coach has very little to do with making brilliant decisions. It usually just comes down to being able to get the team to play together and making the obvious decision. The reason bad coaches are often bad coaches is because they over coach and over think. Sometimes they out coach themselves by trying to be brilliant. It is much easier for a coach to have a negative effect on a team than it is for a coach to have a positive effect on the team.

Will Galen
05-09-2011, 06:12 PM
You've been out in the sun to long. The Digest didn't even exist then.:-p

Ah . . . er . . . well I meant the people that later came to the Digest were in a buzz.

Yeah that's my excus . . . I mean yeah that's what I meant!

Wow, that is a while back. I do remember the buzz he created though, so it had to be on the Star forum. I haven't thought of that place in ages and it used to be my first bookmark.

rock747
05-09-2011, 11:04 PM
I like Vogel and obviously with the way the season ended he's the emotional choice. However, how long can his motivational speech's still have the same effect? It will be interesting to see what happens...

joeyd
05-09-2011, 11:51 PM
If Bird knew that Vogel was the guy he wanted, he would have already been hired on.

Maybe, but hasn't the NBA been moving more like the NFL in encouraging teams to bring in at least one minority candidate prior to making a hire? Since the interim tag was never removed, we never had a full-time permanent coach after JOB was fired, so aren't NBA teams supposed to practice "due diligence?" Can someone confirm? Is anyone hired on the spot these days (except for mid-season hires from within) without the team conducting interviews?

Mackey_Rose
05-10-2011, 07:21 AM
Maybe, but hasn't the NBA been moving more like the NFL in encouraging teams to bring in at least one minority candidate prior to making a hire? Since the interim tag was never removed, we never had a full-time permanent coach after JOB was fired, so aren't NBA teams supposed to practice "due diligence?" Can someone confirm? Is anyone hired on the spot these days (except for mid-season hires from within) without the team conducting interviews?

The NFL's "Rooney Rule" requires that a minority candidate get an interview. The NBA has no such policy.

Kid Minneapolis
05-13-2011, 03:01 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=6540862

"Former Cleveland Cavaliers (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/cle/cleveland-cavaliers) coach Mike Brown, who's spent this season working as an NBA analyst for ESPN, remains the favorite for the job, and it appears Brown has narrowed his focus to the Warriors.
Brown, sources said, has pulled himself out of consideration for the Houston Rockets (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/hou/houston-rockets)' opening, and the Indiana Pacers (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ind/indiana-pacers) have yet to reach out to him.

Several sources said that with the Pacers' front office staying intact with president Larry Bird and general manager David Morway, the job is interim coach Frank Vogel's to lose, and the Pacers have not explored other options."

glazedham42
05-13-2011, 03:31 PM
If Larry isn't interested in Frank or Mike Brown, then it will sure be interesting to see what ace he thinks he has up his sleeve. It seems like they would at least give Mike Brown a good hard look?

Unclebuck
05-13-2011, 03:49 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=6540862

"Former Cleveland Cavaliers (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/cle/cleveland-cavaliers) coach Mike Brown, who's spent this season working as an NBA analyst for ESPN, remains the favorite for the job, and it appears Brown has narrowed his focus to the Warriors.
Brown, sources said, has pulled himself out of consideration for the Houston Rockets (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/hou/houston-rockets)' opening, and the Indiana Pacers (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ind/indiana-pacers) have yet to reach out to him.

Several sources said that with the Pacers' front office staying intact with president Larry Bird and general manager David Morway, the job is interim coach Frank Vogel's to lose, and the Pacers have not explored other options."


That is in conflict to what we read earlier that the pacers have just begun to consider other candidates.

Kid Minneapolis
05-13-2011, 03:55 PM
That is in conflict to what we read earlier that the pacers have just begun to consider other candidates.

Don't know when the one you are talking was posted... the article I linked was updated "May 13, 2011, 2:21 PM ET", which was like an hour and a half ago.

Unclebuck
05-13-2011, 04:02 PM
Don't know when the one you are talking was posted... the article I linked was updated "May 13, 2011, 2:21 PM ET", which was like an hour and a half ago.


I'm not trying to get into a mine is better than yours type of thing. Just think there are going too be a lot of conflicting reports along the way. Plus we know that Bird keeps things pretty quiet .

This I found on hoopshype this morning, it was posted in another thread.

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

Bill Ingram: The report that the Pacers have "narrowed" their coach search to Vogel and Brown is false (http://hoopshype.com/twitter_media.html) . . .they are just starting to look at candidates. Twitter (http://hoopshype.com/twitter_media.html)
http://hoopshype.com/img/tag.pngIndiana Pacers (http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/indiana_pacers), Coaching (http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/coaching), Mike Brown (http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/mike_brown), Frank Vogel (http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/frank_vogel) | share (http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#gME-r10B6)

xBulletproof
05-13-2011, 09:53 PM
You know what these reports tell me? That nobody knows what the hell we're doing right now, except us.

pwee31
05-15-2011, 10:29 AM
I put this in a couple threads

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sam_amick/05/14/coaching.searches/index.html?sct=nba_t2_a4



In Indiana, the seat that is technically vacant is likely to be occupied by Frank Vogel next season as well. According to a source close to that process, the final decision has not been made but the odds are good that the interim coach is given a one-year deal.

Mackey_Rose
05-15-2011, 10:40 AM
If Vogel's only going to get a one year deal, it tells me Bird isn't entirely convinced. If that turns out to be the case, part of the deal needs to be contingent on Vogel hiring an experienced assistant capable of stepping in when things go south.

If he gets a one year deal, he might as well just keep the interim tag.

Trophy
05-15-2011, 11:26 AM
Bird seems 50/50 on Vogel.

I actually think it might be a good idea since we're most likely not bringing in much this offseason since this FA class doesn't have much, but in 2012, a different coach might do better with the more talented core we'll hopefully have.

Tom White
05-15-2011, 11:47 AM
Well, those are his only years as a head coach. I'm not sure what you're expecting.

This babysitter notion is nonsense. Do people really think they made the Finals with a do-nothing coach? Do people think he won 66 games and was COY by doing nothing in 2008-09?

It was all LeBron? Really?

I realize Brown was not their coach this past season, but have you compared Cleveland's record with James vs. their record this year?

Yeah, he was responsible for a lot of that difference.


I don't think Mike Brown is a top-five coach by any means, but to discount a guy because he had a star player is ludicrous ... especially when supporting a guy who hasn't coached a full NBA season.

I like Vogel and Brown, and can understand arguments for both.

I don't have a problem with Brown, per se. I am curious about what sort of offense and defense he would want to run without a player of James' ability. I seriously have no idea what his philosophies would be.

Tom White
05-15-2011, 11:51 AM
George/Dahntay on Rose wasn't a 'brilliant' decision and more of a 'common sense' one?

Based on size and defensive abilities, I'd say yes.

Brad8888
05-15-2011, 12:11 PM
If Vogel's only going to get a one year deal, it tells me Bird isn't entirely convinced. If that turns out to be the case, part of the deal needs to be contingent on Vogel hiring an experienced assistant capable of stepping in when things go south.

If he gets a one year deal, he might as well just keep the interim tag.

It also could indicate that, while the Pacers need to have a head coach, the organization, from Simon on down to Bird, are not certain what the CBA and lockout will bring, what opportunities and obstacles might arise, and what that might mean to the overall future of the franchise from an ownership standpoint.

I suspect that, under the circumstances, Vogel would not feel slighted by a one year deal, and might actually appreciate the flexibility and opportunities that might open up for him in the event that

1) there is a season next year

and

2) the Pacers develop further and get additional talent that take them to the next level.

Eleazar
05-15-2011, 05:15 PM
I really don't think a 1 year deal says anything about Vogel. I think it says more about JOB and the CBA. Also I kind of hope that this is more of the beginning of a trend in the NBA where coaches are only guaranteed one season at a time.

mattie
05-15-2011, 05:59 PM
I'd actually love if the Pacers could get Rick Adelman. I've always felt very highly of him. I hope he's at least interviewed.

Mackey_Rose
05-15-2011, 09:18 PM
I really don't think a 1 year deal says anything about Vogel. I think it says more about JOB and the CBA. Also I kind of hope that this is more of the beginning of a trend in the NBA where coaches are only guaranteed one season at a time.

I don't follow. How does it say anything about JOB?

Unclebuck
05-15-2011, 09:26 PM
I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

they might as well keep the interim tag then.

I would put that in the top 3 dumest things the pacers organization has ever done.

stupid

BringJackBack
05-15-2011, 09:29 PM
I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

they might as well keep the interim tag then.

I would put that in the top 3 dumest things the pacers organization has ever done.

stupid

Exactly. Don't put your toe in the water. Don't be a pansy. Be assertive and call the shots. Don't half commit.

Vogel never half commited. Either sign Vogel to a three year deal or sign Mike Brown to a three year deal. Don't sign a freaking one year deal.

Mackey_Rose
05-15-2011, 09:29 PM
I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

they might as well keep the interim tag then

That's exactly what I said. If Vogel is the guy, he needs a multi-year deal. If he isn't worthy of that, then he isn't worthy of the job. Giving him a one year contract sends a terrible message.

Hicks
05-15-2011, 10:35 PM
I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

they might as well keep the interim tag then.

I would put that in the top 3 dumest things the pacers organization has ever done.

stupid

I wouldn't be angry, but I agree with your thoughts in general. Why bother if you only have enough faith to give him a 1 year deal? Just get Mike Brown and be done with it if that's how you feel.

Sookie
05-15-2011, 10:44 PM
I wouldn't be angry, but I agree with your thoughts in general. Why bother if you only have enough faith to give him a 1 year deal? Just get Mike Brown and be done with it if that's how you feel.


I disagree a bit.

I think it could very well be "we like what we saw, but we want to give you a chance to really prove yourself"

At the end of the day, it's a good deal for the Pacers because Vogel is cheap and we don't know how this year is going to go. (Wouldn't want to pay an expensive coach at a time when we don't know if there will even be a season next year) And we get a better look at Vogel, who deserved that opportunity.

Vogel meanwhile gets an entire season to show what he can do. If he's successful, he gets another contract. If not, he got his fair shot.

Speed
05-16-2011, 07:48 AM
I'd have Vogel on a two year contract, then he's not a "lame duck". Then you can still send him packing after a year, if need be. I think you'll be able to sign a "Mike Brown" caliber guy then, if need be.

Look its not like you have a once in a life time coaching candidate knocking on your door here. I like Mike Brown quite a bit, but I'm not thinking he's a no brainer by any stretch.

I'm glad to see this, this morning, at least they are going to weigh their options.


http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/05/15/coaching-search-should-pick-up/

by Mike Wells

The newness of Pacers president Larry Bird and owner Herb Simon’s handshake agreement has worn off.

Now it’s time for the Pacers to turn their attention to the coaching search (and the predraft camp in Chicago) this week.

Bird is expected to talk to the media about his decision to return for another season and likely answer some coaching questions Tuesday.

Frank Vogel, who led the Pacers to a 20-18 record and the playoffs, is still the likely frontrunner for the job.

Bird said last month that Vogel will get the first and last interview during the process. He also said he wants to “talk to a few (other) people” before making a decision.

The Pacers have yet to contact potential candidates Mike Brown, Dwane Casey or Chuck Person, according to sources. Expect the Pacers to start reaching out to them.

Brown (Golden State), Casey (Houston and Golden State) and Person (Golden Sate and Lakers) are all in the running for other jobs around the league, according to reports.

Vogel: He earned a lot of respect from many of his peers around the league for being able to turn what looked like a disastrous season into the Pacers’ first playoff berth since 2006.

Simon is a big supporter of Vogel because he got the players to play hard, something that wasn’t always the case with Jim O’Brien. But it’s Bird’s call on who he wants to be the coach.

Vogel helped his chances when the Pacers competed in four of their five games against the Bulls.

Vogel will have to tighten things up with the players. Practices were too loose at times. That’s not good for a team that has a lot of young players.

Vogel doesn’t need to become an O’Brien clone, just make sure the players are focused when they need to be.

Person: He has a history with the Pacers. He was drafted by them, worked in the front office for them and was in charge of the defense as an assistant coach under former coach Rick Carlisle.

The Pacers finished in the top 10 defensively under Person during the 2006-07 season.

Person coached the Lakers defense this season. They finished fifth in the league in field goal defense, eighth in points allowed and third in 3-point field goal defense.

Person, who interviewed for the Chicago Bulls job in 2008, also worked closely with center Andrew Bynum, Ron Artest and Kobe Bryant.

Brown: He spent two seasons as Carlisle’s associate head coach before heading to Cleveland to coach LeBron James and Co.

The Cavaliers went to the NBA Finals in 2007.

Brown is known for his defense, a problem area for the Pacers (not one player received an all-defensive team vote).

Casey: He’s been waiting for a second shot after being let go by Minnesota halfway through his second season. The T’Wolves were 20-20 when Casey was fired. They went 12-30 the rest of the season.

Casey missed out on jobs with the Clippers and the Hawks last summer.

Like Brown and Person, Casey is in charge of the Mavericks defense under Carlisle. The Mavericks, who will play Oklahoma City in the Western Conference Finals, finished eighth in the league in field goal defense.

Bird has always liked Rick Adelman, who has reportedly been linked as a candidate for the Lakers job. It’ll be interesting to see if Bird reaches out to the former Houston Rockets coach.

Don’t be shocked if Bird decides to talk to somebody who isn’t on many people’s radar. He’s done that in the past – O’Brien.

Kid Minneapolis
05-16-2011, 11:45 AM
I see nothing wrong with a 1-year deal. Of course Vogel has to prove himself. I get kind of tired of seeing professional sports teams feeling forced to throw multi-year deals at unproven commodities, because "that's just what teams do these days" and "we gotta show that we're not pansies." That mentality is what got the NBA in the trouble that it's in right now, the reason for those ridiculous contracts. It's no guarantee that you stay there, ask JOB. A 1-year has a lot of motivational factors behind it... it tells the candidate "look, we think you've got promise, but you have to show it for this next year, and then depending upon performance, we'll revisit this deal next year." It sets that bar of performance higher going forward. It's not like you're disrespecting the candidate ---- he's not very old, he's never head coached a full season and there is still a lot of question marks. And he still stands to land himself a dream contract if he performs up to par.

As much as I like Vogel, and as good as I *think* he could be... you have to make smart business decisions. Bender showed a lot of promise early, got himself a nice contract --- bad business decision. There's no guarantee that someone is going to meet expectations. I think Vogel shows a TON of coaching promise.... but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I see nothing wrong with making him work for a real contract this next year.

You might consider a 3-year if you really think the competition for said candidate is that high, but I don't get the feeling there's that many teams that are prepared to throw Vogel 3 years at this point in time. Not that he isn't worth it at some point, but because he's not a completely well-known entity at this point in time. No one really knows what this guy is going to do. He's not like Lawrence Frank or Adelman or Brown, who everyone is generally familiar with and you know what you're going to get.

BillS
05-16-2011, 12:42 PM
I think with a young team you have to have some consistency somewhere. Dropping Vogel after a year if he doesn't work out delays getting these guys a coach who can take them to the next level.

If you don't think Vogel is that coach, hire someone else and let another team give him the "trial" deal.

Justin Tyme
05-16-2011, 12:43 PM
I see nothing wrong with a 1-year deal. Of course Vogel has to prove himself. I get kind of tired of seeing professional sports teams feeling forced to throw multi-year deals at unproven commodities, because "that's just what teams do these days" and "we gotta show that we're not pansies." That mentality is what got the NBA in the trouble that it's in right now, the reason for those ridiculous contracts. It's no guarantee that you stay there, ask JOB. A 1-year has a lot of motivational factors behind it... it tells the candidate "look, we think you've got promise, but you have to show it for this next year, and then depending upon performance, we'll revisit this deal next year." It sets that bar of performance higher going forward. It's not like you're disrespecting the candidate ---- he's not very old, he's never head coached a full season and there is still a lot of question marks. And he still stands to land himself a dream contract if he performs up to par.

As much as I like Vogel, and as good as I *think* he could be... you have to make smart business decisions. Bender showed a lot of promise early, got himself a nice contract --- bad business decision. There's no guarantee that someone is going to meet expectations. I think Vogel shows a TON of coaching promise.... but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I see nothing wrong with making him work for a real contract this next year.

You might consider a 3-year if you really think the competition for said candidate is that high, but I don't get the feeling there's that many teams that are prepared to throw Vogel 3 years at this point in time. Not that he isn't worth it at some point, but because he's not a completely well-known entity at this point in time. No one really knows what this guy is going to do. He's not like Lawrence Frank or Adelman or Brown, who everyone is generally familiar with and you know what you're going to get.


Why not do like teams do with rookie players? Give a 4 year contract with the 1st 2 years guaranteed and years 3 & 4 as a team option? Do the same with a rookie coach which is basically what Vogel is.

Two years isn't that hard to live with if things don't workout. Not to mention with a cheap salary, he could be replaced w/o causing a big problem money wise.

Kid Minneapolis
05-16-2011, 02:20 PM
Ya I'm completely fine with that type of contract, Justin, it gives outs if needed but still holds a candle to the feet of the candidate to perform and earn any further commitments, just like you do with a rookie player. I just think the longer contracts need to go to guys who have proven themselves. I hope to God that Frank does prove himself, I really do think he has the stuff to do so.

[EDIT] --- Although, watching a young Frank Vogel brush his teeth while spinning a basketball on the other end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKiMkad2OMk&feature=player_detailpage#t=303s) makes me want to forego the short contract and just give him a 10-year guaranteed. :D