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Mackey_Rose
05-04-2011, 07:53 AM
I'm a bit hesitant to post this, because I'm sure it will just turn into another Kravitz bashing. However, if you take a step back and think about this from a non-Pacer fanatic angle, he is exactly right.

It was a low blow by Bird. As a basketball executive, he hasn't earned that kind of leeway, in my opinion.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110504/SPORTS15/105040365/Kravitz-Bird-wrong-go-public-demands-Simon?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|IndyStar.com|s




This is a term you rarely hear in French Lick, but it applies to Larry Bird: The man has chutzpah.

How else do you explain his statement that he would consider returning as Indiana Pacers president of basketball operations if owner Herb Simon, who has always been generous with Bird and the franchise, is willing to spend the cash necessary to improve the team?

It's OK to have those private concerns; it's not OK to go public with them. It's wrong from a personal standpoint -- Simon has been extraordinarily good to Bird -- and it's wrong from a business standpoint, sucking the air out of the room after the team's energizing late-season improvement.

I like Bird immensely, appreciate his accessibility and honesty, but when did his team play in the Eastern Conference finals? Did I miss something? In the last year of The Plan, Bird's team won a sub- mediocre 37 games and only made the playoffs because the Eastern Conference stinks.

The truth is, if the Pacers were in the West -- in which case, they probably wouldn't have won 37 games -- Indiana would have missed the playoffs and everybody would be calling for Bird to pack his bags.

Now he's talking like he's Pat Riley or even Memphis' Chris Wallace: I might think about coming back, but only if you give me some assurances.

Really?

Even if Bird's concerns are valid -- though it's never been my sense that Simon is hiding the checkbook -- this isn't something you drop on your owner in a public setting.

Simon gave Bird the go-ahead to extend Rick Carlisle's contract, and Carlisle was fired. Simon let him extend Jim O'Brien's contract, and O'Brien was fired. Bird has been given money to spend, and when he hasn't spent it wisely, Simon has kept his opinion out of the public domain.

The owner has been immensely patient with Bird and his front office. Patient with lousy draft choices like Shawne Williams and Brandon Rush (who got a contract extension for reasons that elude me). Patient with free agents who never made much of a contribution, like Sarunas Jasikevicius and Travis Diener. Patient with mistakes like giving two second-round choices, James White and Lance Stephenson, guaranteed contracts. (White never made it out of training camp; Stephenson is, without question, the most despised player in that locker room.) Patient with the coaching changes, the way he jettisoned Carlisle too quickly -- how's Rick doing, by the way? -- and stayed too long with O'Brien.

I've written that Bird has earned the right to make his own call, specifically because he has stuck by his long-term plan and helped the Pacers out of salary-cap purgatory. He's done good things: drafting Danny Granger and Paul George; getting rid of Jermaine O'Neal's contract while getting Roy Hibbert; dealing for Darren Collison.

It's been a mixed bag, slightly more good than bad.

But if Simon came out today and said of his front office, "It's time for a change," I'd have a hard time arguing. Especially after Bird, who doesn't have much in the way of leverage here, tossed him under the minivan last week. Simon told WTHR he was "disappointed" by the comments. If I was his boss, I'd be enraged and even hurt.

That will be a very interesting meeting between Simon and Bird on Tuesday in Los Angeles, and something needs to be settled, one way or the other, very quickly.

The coaching situation has to be settled. The free agency game plan has to be put together (and yes, Nene said he was thinking of opting out of his deal and yes, he would be a perfect fit here).

I would say this to Bird: Either you're all in or you're out.

That's what Reggie Miller told me the night he decided to remain retired and not join the Boston Celtics for what ended up being a championship run.

That's what I wrote about Tony Dungy before he decided to retire as Colts coach. He wanted to continue flying back and forth from Tampa, Fla., where his family lived. Either you're all in or you're out.

No halfway measures.

It's gotten even stranger in recent days, with the report that Jim Morris, Simon's right-hand man, reached out to San Antonio executive Dennis Lindsey. Lindsey properly told him he had no interest in talking to the Pacers while Bird and general manager David Morway were still employed.

Why would anybody have Morris, who knows as much about basketball as I do Vietnamese cooking, contact prospective general manager candidates?

Everything seemed to be making perfect sense as the Pacers pushed the Bulls to the edge in four out of the five playoff games, but now, there's just confusion. Does Larry want to come back? Does Herb want Larry back, especially after the way Larry did him last week?

The Pacers seemed to turn the corner recently, only to get lost again.

Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star. Call him at (317) 444-6643 or email bob.kravitz@indystar.com. You can also follow Bob on Twitter at @bkravitz.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 08:03 AM
Yes Kravitz bashing is in again because Bob shows his ignorance of the Pacers again. He writes pieces that are either fluff or gruff, never something that really has insight.

There's actually a good article here but Bob's not up on the Pacers enough to know that. All along the Simon's have spent money, and it was well known by hardcore Pacer fans that Herb would spend up to the tax line. Bird knows that too, so the question is why would Bird want to know if Herb would continue to spend money? Find the answer to that and you have a story.

Major Cold
05-04-2011, 08:14 AM
I do agree in principle of what :kravitz: is talking about. The public demand was no worse than JO demanding more touches.

But I do have issue with :kravitz:'s assessments on some of his transactions:

Travis Diener- Was he botched? Or could he have been a decent backup and third stringer. Was it such a torrid signing?


the way he jettisoned Carlisle too quicklyI am not going to dig up his articles, but I am pretty sure that Bob was on board with letting Rick go. I mean it was like we did Rick a favor, saving him from the babies that were on our team. It was time for a change, even though he was a good coach.

Brandon Rush- I wouldn't call him a horrible draft choice. I would call him a good pick that has gone sour.

But Bird needs to be called into account of three trade deadline botches. If that happens regularly then we need to do a better job of keeping it private like the other teams.

All in all if we hired someone else I would not care all that much. It is not like Bird has done a horrible job, but has he done a stellar job?

90'sNBARocked
05-04-2011, 08:48 AM
Stephenson is, without question, the most despised player in that locker room.

Kid is going to fk himself right out of the league and will have no one to blame but himself

It will be sad if Lance finally "gets it" but its too late

I look at someone like Lance , with the god given talent I would give my right you know what for

Yet instead of busting his hump, he seems to go out of his way to make people not like him. In two years he will have made over 1 and a half MILLION dollars

In 12 years of working , I dont think I have made near that amount

**** Lance

:(

Tom White
05-04-2011, 09:09 AM
Yes Kravitz bashing is in again because Bob shows his ignorance of the Pacers again. He writes pieces that are either fluff or gruff, never something that really has insight.

There's actually a good article here but Bob's not up on the Pacers enough to know that. All along the Simon's have spent money, and it was well known by hardcore Pacer fans that Herb would spend up to the tax line. Bird knows that too, so the question is why would Bird want to know if Herb would continue to spend money? Find the answer to that and you have a story.

It isn't "finding the answer" that Kravitz is writing about. The "answer" is not the point of the story. The subject of the article is Bird's talking about it in the media. As I said in another thread, if Bird has a question about whether Simon will or won't spend (Which I doubt he really questions.), it is a subject that should be dealt with privately, between the two of them. Not in a press conference. Especially, with this following so closely on the heels of the team asking the city for more money.

Kegboy
05-04-2011, 09:17 AM
I just wish we knew what the hell was going on.

Sobotka
05-04-2011, 09:18 AM
I just wish we knew what the hell was going on.

I just wish I thought they knew what the hell was going on.

Unclebuck
05-04-2011, 09:21 AM
I agree with Kravy. Bird was wrong, makes me wonder why he did it, maybe he was just be 100% honest, or maybe he was trying to force Herb to make a decision.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 09:22 AM
As soon as I read the part about Nene being the perfect fit for the Pacers, I knew where Kravitz got that idea...... PD. I for one want to thank you Bob for getting much of your Pacer BB insight from US on PD!

There has to be something in the background that hasn't surfaced as to why Bird made his statement about Herb spending money. Does Bird know something we don't? He must be upset by going public with the statement.


Simon doesn't want to spend money b/c he wants to sell the team?

Was Bird was referring to Herb wanting to cut Bird's salary substantially?

Bird feels he needs more money to hire more/different FO personel.

Is this a shot at Herb b/c Bird knows Herb is going to go a different direction in the FO?

Not being a Bird the FO fan, I have to admit this is what I feel is totally out of character for Bird to do and say. Something is amiss for Bird to go public. Maybe Bird is too prideful to say he wants out, and is trying to force Herb to let him go. I really have no clue as to what is going on, and I imagine only a few do. AND Kravitz ain't one of them! As soon as we find out Bob, you can get your info here on PD for your article about it. :D

owl
05-04-2011, 09:23 AM
Yes Kravitz bashing is in again because Bob shows his ignorance of the Pacers again. He writes pieces that are either fluff or gruff, never something that really has insight.

There's actually a good article here but Bob's not up on the Pacers enough to know that. All along the Simon's have spent money, and it was well known by hardcore Pacer fans that Herb would spend up to the tax line. Bird knows that too, so the question is why would Bird want to know if Herb would continue to spend money? Find the answer to that and you have a story.

Apparently money is an issue. Maybe because of poor attendance and the collective bargaining agreement Mr Simon has finally reached his limit. I am sure he has the money but not from the Pacers business. If it is losing money year after year that needs to be delt with in the next CBA.

BillS
05-04-2011, 09:25 AM
The recent floods must have drowned the pod in :kravitz:'s basement. The REAL Bob is back.

Yes, it is a bizarre chain of events, but at what point does some reporter (and, yes, I know, Kravitz is a columnist who doesn't have to do any real digging, just spout off. How does a guy apply for that gig?) decide to approach this like a news story and actually ASK SOME QUESTIONS instead of just making guesses that look at the worst possible motivations so the pot can be stirred.

Hicks, get PD some press creds and I'LL go ask the questions.

Mackey_Rose
05-04-2011, 09:33 AM
Bob writes anything negative about the Pacers = Terrible column, he doesn't know how to do his job. Kravitz is a terrible columnist.

Bob writes anything positive about the Pacers = Great column, what's wrong with Kravitz?

BillS
05-04-2011, 09:49 AM
Bob writes anything negative about the Pacers = Terrible column, he doesn't know how to do his job. Kravitz is a terrible columnist.

Bob writes anything positive about the Pacers = Great column, what's wrong with Kravitz?

Considering the second happens so seldom, why wouldn't it be treated like an exception?

Though I think I've never said Kravitz was a terrible "columnist", I just bemoan the lack of accountability to actual fact. I'd prefer a reporter, especially since Wells seems to have changed into a "twitterist" (like a columnist without needing to write as much to stir the pot).

Can we please get a real sports reporter rather than a bunch of people trying to be the latest to promote their own opinions? At this point, it's guys hamstrung by PR positions like Brunner (no matter what he writes it is going to be considered biased) vs. guys like Kravitz and Wells who want to play contrarian and get folks to freak out over something.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 09:49 AM
Hicks, get PD some press creds and I'LL go ask the questions.


Great suggestion!

Dr. Hibbert
05-04-2011, 09:53 AM
I thought, when I started reading this thread, I'd be in the minority of thinking it was a good column and agreeing with Kravitz. I guess it's kinda split.

I agree. The point wasn't about the answers to these questions, but about Bird going public after more or less seeing his squad luck its way into the playoffs. Apparently he wants champ contender compensation despite the fact that the Pacers only really made the playoffs by default. As exciting as the run was and bright as the future may be, the Pacers could have just as easily not made the playoffs this year. They are a little more than their record says they are...but we shouldn't pretend they're a lot more, or that Bird has been an elite PBO.

BillS
05-04-2011, 10:00 AM
Apparently he wants champ contender compensation despite the fact that the Pacers only really made the playoffs by default.

This is how things start flying off into lala land.

I can understand that it might be about trying to spend money next year, but when it starts speculating that it's all about Bird's salary I don't buy it. Where does that come from in anything anyone has actually said? I've not seen anything other than speculation from people who don't know that even brings the topic up.

It is really just a backhanded way of being able to call both Herb and Larry "greedy" - Herb because he wants somehow not to lose huge $$, and Larry because people have put words into his mouth that he wants a personal paycheck over the good of the team.

QuickRelease
05-04-2011, 10:19 AM
As soon as I read the part about Nene being the perfect fit for the Pacers, I knew where Kravitz got that idea...... PD. I for one want to thank you Bob for getting much of your Pacer BB insight from US on PD!Half the world knows we need a frontline PF. Nene is the best one available in this offseason fa class. Doubt he needed PD to come up with that. That said, if we can't get Nene, I hope we take a decent look at Tyson Chandler.

Mackey_Rose
05-04-2011, 10:23 AM
Considering the second happens so seldom, why wouldn't it be treated like an exception?

Though I think I've never said Kravitz was a terrible "columnist", I just bemoan the lack of accountability to actual fact. I'd prefer a reporter, especially since Wells seems to have changed into a "twitterist" (like a columnist without needing to write as much to stir the pot).

Can we please get a real sports reporter rather than a bunch of people trying to be the latest to promote their own opinions? At this point, it's guys hamstrung by PR positions like Brunner (no matter what he writes it is going to be considered biased) vs. guys like Kravitz and Wells who want to play contrarian and get folks to freak out over something.

Having something positive to write about has been the exception for several years.

Just because you don't like the things he has to write about, it doesn't mean they are wrong.

aaronb
05-04-2011, 10:33 AM
As soon as I read the part about Nene being the perfect fit for the Pacers, I knew where Kravitz got that idea...... PD. I for one want to thank you Bob for getting much of your Pacer BB insight from US on PD!

There has to be something in the background that hasn't surfaced as to why Bird made his statement about Herb spending money. Does Bird know something we don't? He must be upset by going public with the statement.


Simon doesn't want to spend money b/c he wants to sell the team?

Was Bird was referring to Herb wanting to cut Bird's salary substantially?

Bird feels he needs more money to hire more/different FO personel.

Is this a shot at Herb b/c Bird knows Herb is going to go a different direction in the FO?

Not being a Bird the FO fan, I have to admit this is what I feel is totally out of character for Bird to do and say. Something is amiss for Bird to go public. Maybe Bird is too prideful to say he wants out, and is trying to force Herb to let him go. I really have no clue as to what is going on, and I imagine only a few do. AND Kravitz ain't one of them! As soon as we find out Bob, you can get your info here on PD for your article about it. :D


At the time it happened I thought it was a way for Bird to drum up public support for his own new contract. The playoff appearance finally gave Bird a level of leverage with the locals.

Bball
05-04-2011, 10:43 AM
Maybe Simon wants to keep the cap space and see what kind of offers he can get for the team....
....Or maybe he was just as disgusted as 99.9% of us with JOB's coaching and Bird's reluctance to fire him?

BillS
05-04-2011, 10:45 AM
Having something positive to write about has been the exception for several years.

Just because you don't like the things he has to write about, it doesn't mean they are wrong.

Spinning everything to be the most negative interpretation possible is no more acceptable than spinning everything to the most positive interpretation possible. Many people here remember the frustration when THAT seemed to be the situation.

A losing team is no fun, but it isn't some sort of impossible to overcome disaster that requires everyone in the city to be exhorted to hate the team until they start winning again. There are ways to find positives even in that sort of situation, if you're willing to work at it.

Writing only on the negative things until the positives hit you in the face is not particularly challenging. It's easy to stir things up by taking a quote out of context and running with it. It's harder to do by actually building a foundation of complete facts.

How the local media treats the Pacers has a huge effect on their ability to attract/keep fans. Don't hide the negative stuff, but when all you print or tweet or comment on is negative stuff (or is a negative spin on really neutral stuff) you are taking the side of those who want to run the team out of town - and, I'm sure, preparing to take great pride in the role you played in doing so.

Again, I think I'd be more accepting of a Kravitz or even a Wells who push buttons and get the expected knee-jerk reaction ("Get rid of the Pacers, their owners/FO are a bunch of greedy billionaire idiots who hate the city and just want to steal everything they can") IF there was a reporter who actually got the context of remarks, asked follow-up questions, and got answers to questions rather than just smugly posting the questions along with your own speculation on the answers as an excuse for an "article".

naptownmenace
05-04-2011, 11:01 AM
I thought, when I started reading this thread, I'd be in the minority of thinking it was a good column and agreeing with Kravitz. I guess it's kinda split.

I agree. The point wasn't about the answers to these questions, but about Bird going public after more or less seeing his squad luck its way into the playoffs. Apparently he wants champ contender compensation despite the fact that the Pacers only really made the playoffs by default. As exciting as the run was and bright as the future may be, the Pacers could have just as easily not made the playoffs this year. They are a little more than their record says they are...but we shouldn't pretend they're a lot more, or that Bird has been an elite PBO.

Those are some excellent points that Kravitz made. I thought it was a good article and I'm surprised it took him 4 days to write it. Firing Carlisle and extending O'Brien were mistakes that I really can't overlook. The Shawne Williams draft pick too was a head scratcher at the time when Rondo was available.

Bird threw Simon under the bus publicly and you don't do that to your boss.

Unclebuck
05-04-2011, 11:06 AM
Firing Rick Carlisle was not a mistake IMO, and I was a huge fan of. His time coaching here had reached the end. Wasn't his fault, but someone new was needed to help clean up the mess.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 11:16 AM
Half the world knows we need a frontline PF. Nene is the best one available in this offseason fa class. Doubt he needed PD to come up with that. That said, if we can't get Nene, I hope we take a decent look at Tyson Chandler.

I agree half the world knows. It's not a sceret as Bird stated knowledgeable BB people know it. I'm questioning how knowledgeable Kravitz truly is and where he gets his info from. He gleans every possible source for info and how the pulse of how the fans feel. What better place than PD?

I just find it odd that the topic of late on PD has been threads on Bigs and now Nene, and Kravitz throws a small comment in his article about Nene. Maybe coincidence, but personally I don't see it that way.

If you want info on how the fans of team X feels, where better do you go to gather info? Where the diehard fans discuss team X.... forums. You can best believe Kravitz does. If he didn't, he wouldn't be taking advantage gathering info in doing his job.

CableKC
05-04-2011, 11:19 AM
I just know that this will turn into one of those "When did Bird take over" discussions....but Kravitz wrote:


Simon gave Bird the go-ahead to extend Rick Carlisle's contract, and Carlisle was fired. Simon let him extend Jim O'Brien's contract, and O'Brien was fired. Bird has been given money to spend, and when he hasn't spent it wisely, Simon has kept his opinion out of the public domain.
When did Bird spend $$$ unwisely?

The only major $$$ that I recall that Bird spent was to sign Inferno and sign Solo....am I missing something here?

LetsTalkPacers
05-04-2011, 11:22 AM
I honestly think Bird was just being a straight shooter. Like it or not, thats who he is and has always been. Im not justifying what he said. Im just saying he's got that barbershop mentality. Say what your thinking and dont give a damn what others think. I dont think he was trying to be a dick, just being like every other old man I know.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=Tom White;1229773]It isn't "finding the answer" that Kravitz is writing about. The "answer" is not the point of the story.

I know, I was pointing out that it should have been. Bird even said he was throwing his owner under the bus in the press conference. Why he did that would make a better story than the typical bashing Kravitz came up with.

CableKC
05-04-2011, 11:32 AM
IMHO, Kravitz broke it down as follows:

1 ) Bird shouldn't have gone public with his comments
2 ) The Simons have been patient with the decisions that Bird has made since Walsh left
3 ) Bird has got to decide whether he is "In or Out" PERIOD.
4 ) Despite their patience with Bird, this waffling by Bird on whether to "Stay or Go" has to end as it doesn't allow the FO to get their "ducks in a row" in preperation for the major changes ( Coaching, Roster and FO Personnel ) in the Offseason.

I can't disagree with what Kravitz is saying. If Bird wants to "Stay or Go"...IMHO...he should decide soon as there is 1 to 2 months left before the real Offseason starts.....specifically when these major moves need to be made. I have no clue how long it takes to put together a FO, instill whatever vision that the FO wants in place, get a new Coach and whether it's a good idea to do all of this before the FA and Draft begins....but my guess is that you can't flip a switch and everything happens overnight IF Bird decides to leave the Organization.

Shade
05-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Kravitz isn't a reporter; he's a columnist. His articles are really no more insightful than a lot of posts made here on PD, and I'll bet some posters' connections to the Pacers organization are even closer than Bob's.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 11:35 AM
Kravitz isn't a reporter; he's a columnist. His articles are LESS insightful than a lot of posts made here on PD, and I'll bet some posters' connections to the Pacers organization are even closer than Bob's.

Fixed

ksuttonjr76
05-04-2011, 11:49 AM
Translation - Bird wants to throw max money at someone.

Could it be Dwight Howard AND Chris Paul after a couple of trades?

avoidingtheclowns
05-04-2011, 11:57 AM
I just wish I thought they knew what the hell was going on.

You know what the trouble is, Sobotka? We used to build **** in this front office.

naptownmenace
05-04-2011, 12:00 PM
Firing Rick Carlisle was not a mistake IMO, and I was a huge fan of. His time coaching here had reached the end. Wasn't his fault, but someone new was needed to help clean up the mess.

Totally disagree and I disagreed at the time he was fired.

Carlisle wasn't the problem. There were too many strong personalities on the team and the chemistry was all out of whack. At the very least, Jamaal Tinsley needed to go. I still feel that Tinsley was more of a problem on that team than Stephen Jackson and JO ever were.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rick demanded personnel changes and that's why he was fired.

vnzla81
05-04-2011, 12:06 PM
Here is what I posted yesterday in another thread


If I was Simon I wouldn't trust Larry either, 30mil in cap space in the hands of the guy who hired JOB by phone? not only that but stay with the freaking guy for 3+ years? like I said before Larry got lucky that Vogel happened, if that didn't happen we could have been looking at another 11th, 12th or 13th pick in the draft and wouldn't even know what he have in our young guys.

I 100% agree with Bob on this one, if the Pacers didn't make the playoffs for a 5th straight season, everybody on PD would be asking for his head, he won 37 games and feels like he has the right to call the owner out? please.

graphic-er
05-04-2011, 12:10 PM
To all those saying Bird has not spent the money wisely, you have no idea what you are talking about. Extending JOB was a mistake? Maybe in year 2 of his contract. But extending his 4th year was actually the only reasonable thing he could have done. The goal was not just make the playoffs. It was a 3 year reset for the entire franchise, they wanted all the contracts to end at the same time, if he hired a new Coach last year then the new GM would have been stuck with that new coach for 3 seasons. No GM wants that. So now Bird has given Simon the ultimate situation with great flexibility going forward. Bird was merely laying it out on the table, if Simon doesn't want to spend the money to improve this franchise then I don't have any reason to be here, and he said it to basically cover his own *** in case he was fired. If Bird is let go then he has already planted the seed that Simon wants to be cheap. Which will probably force Simon's hand to sell the Franchise, Where Bird will lie in wait with a buying group he has put together.

It was really a master stroke move by Bird.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 12:14 PM
Translation - Bird wants to throw max money at someone.

Could it be Dwight Howard AND Chris Paul after a couple of trades?


Maybe Nene this off season. If Bird wants to do as you say, does this mean Simon isn't in agreement? If not why, as long as it doesn't put the Pacers over the LT now or in the future?

Brad8888
05-04-2011, 12:15 PM
This is a term you rarely hear in French Lick, but it applies to Larry Bird: The man has chutzpah.

How else do you explain his statement that he would consider returning as Indiana Pacers president of basketball operations if owner Herb Simon, who has always been generous with Bird and the franchise, is willing to spend the cash necessary to improve the team?

It's OK to have those private concerns; it's not OK to go public with them. It's wrong from a personal standpoint -- Simon has been extraordinarily good to Bird -- and it's wrong from a business standpoint, sucking the air out of the room after the team's energizing late-season improvement.

I like Bird immensely, appreciate his accessibility and honesty

Yes, Bob likes Bird because he gives Bob material to work with.


But if Simon came out today and said of his front office, "It's time for a change," I'd have a hard time arguing. Especially after Bird, who doesn't have much in the way of leverage here, tossed him under the minivan last week. Simon told WTHR he was "disappointed" by the comments. If I was his boss, I'd be enraged and even hurt.

As far as throwing Simon under the minivan and being enraged and even hurt, it seems to me like Bird is simply expressing his frustration with what he is feeling is truly going on despite what we as fans are being led to believe. I think Bird is publicly wondering if he is going be able to do what he has told us he is going to do. If so, he is "all in". If not, he is "all out". So, in my opinion, Bird is really wondering if Simon is "all in" or "all out", and Simon is responding to Bird by first saying that he wants Bird back, then conducting searches for his replacement as he goes forward to keep his price down and acting hurt in the media that Bird is expressing concerns.


Why would anybody have Morris, who knows as much about basketball as I do Vietnamese cooking, contact prospective general manager candidates?

So, when is Bob going to open his Vietnamese restaurant?

I suspect Morris has had ample opportunity to learn about basketball as the President of PS&E. He just doesn't go public with his opinions, he just is in charge of paying those who do go public on behalf of the franchise.


Stephenson is, without question, the most despised player in that locker room.

At least we got a very direct confirmation of this out of this article. The concern is that Bird has come straight out and said that if he were in that lockerroom as a player that he wouldn't have any problems with Lance because Lance can win basketball games if he is one of the best players on the team. Bird also reiterated that Lance is one of the most talented "kids" on the squad. So, do we take from this that Bird is going to stubbornly stick with Lance until either he implodes and damages the franchise in some way or he becomes Derrick Rose light? In my opinion, the risk doesn't justify the potential reward given the still delicate state of the franchise.

One thing is for certain. There will be much intrigue for another week or two, with a quick conclusion that is not easy to predict. This appears to be a very fluid and potentially volatile situation. :mjpopcorn:

aaronb
05-04-2011, 12:20 PM
Here is what I posted yesterday in another thread



I 100% agree with Bob on this one, if the Pacers didn't make the playoffs for a 5th straight season, everybody on PD would be asking for his head, he won 37 games and feels like he has the right to call the owner out? please.



Most here wouldn't be blaming Bird. They'd blame Vogel or Simon for not hiring a bigger name coach. TJ Ford and Troy Murphy would probably end up with some blame as well?

graphic-er
05-04-2011, 12:25 PM
At least we got a very direct confirmation of this out of this article. The concern is that Bird has come straight out and said that if he were in that lockerroom as a player that he wouldn't have any problems with Lance because Lance can win basketball games if he is one of the best players on the team. Bird also reiterated that Lance is one of the most talented "kids" on the squad. So, do we take from this that Bird is going to stubbornly stick with Lance until either he implodes and damages the franchise in some way or he becomes Derrick Rose light? In my opinion, the risk doesn't justify the potential reward given the still delicate state of the franchise.


I thought this was the most interesting quote by Bird in the presser, and Bird is exactly right. Its speaks to the fact that we have players with selfish attitudes about how things are supposed to be, in other words lack of leadership and inclusiveness. I will take Bird's word that Lance is probably the most talented kid in the Locker room. Thus the team needs to realize this and bring him along as a unit rather than dismiss him because of his attitude. A strong team oriented mentality will always subdue attitudes and egos.

vnzla81
05-04-2011, 12:31 PM
Maybe Nene this off season. If Bird wants to do as you say, does this mean Simon isn't in agreement? If not why, as long as it doesn't put the Pacers over the LT now or in the future?

Maybe is not Nene, maybe he wants to pull a Joe Dumars and sign players that are going to take us to take the playoffs but are not good enough to do anything else, I don't know, MJ did that in Charlotte and Milwaukee did the same thing.

Peck
05-04-2011, 12:55 PM
I'll just say this.

After all the good will that the team got from a good playoff run I am sad that Bob felt the need to write this.

However I am more sad that Bird gave Bob the amunition to write this.

Bob is not the Woodward & Bernstien of reporting and would not have gone and dug up this information. Sadly Larry lobbed him a giant soft ball to hit.

The moment the words left Larry's small lips I was :-o, I mean how could he say that in a press conferance about Herb Simon?

So again I think some of you guys just like to be upset at Bob no matter what he writes unless it is a glowing afermation of all things Pacers. In this case Bob is only writing something that was set before him.

Hard to blame a fox when someone ties a chicken to a post with no protection.

The only mystery to me is why it took Bob so long to get this out.

Tom White
05-04-2011, 12:56 PM
I just know that this will turn into one of those "When did Bird take over" discussions....but Kravitz wrote:


When did Bird spend $$$ unwisely?

The only major $$$ that I recall that Bird spent was to sign Inferno and sign Solo....am I missing something here?

Part of the article addresses your question -

"Patient with free agents who never made much of a contribution, like Sarunas Jasikevicius and Travis Diener. Patient with mistakes like giving two second-round choices, James White and Lance Stephenson, guaranteed contracts."

I quess, depending on which players a person likes or dislikes, the names could change to include D. Jones, and likely S. Jones.

Hicks
05-04-2011, 01:02 PM
I just wish we knew what the hell was going on.

This. I didn't see this ambiguity or this story coming. I figured we'd know very quickly that either the status quo would remain in place, or Bird would be gone.

Regarding the article, I don't disagree with Kravitz that Bird was wrong to bring the spending up to the press, but at the same time it didn't register with me when it happened as a 'Holy ****, Bird just slapped Herb in the face' moment, either.

Still, that was a surprise issue and this has become a surprise story. I thought it was well established what Herb was willing to spend on the team, and that is, no going over the luxury tax unless it's a championship-level move.

I almost suspect this isn't about PLAYER money, but coaches/front office money.

Does that mean what Bird is going to make? Maybe, but that would seem slightly out of character.

I'm guessing it might have more to do with how much money Bird can spend on a new coach, a new GM, and perhaps other staff members.

BillS
05-04-2011, 01:12 PM
I'm guessing it might have more to do with how much money Bird can spend on a new coach, a new GM, and perhaps other staff members.

It does strike me that Bird may think it's time to go for another big-name coach, and that Simon may not be comfortable with what has happened to coaching money in recent years (as has been stated before).

Ultimately, though, I think that this is making a mountain out of a pile of dirt - it's bigger than a molehill, and interesting to investigate, but it really isn't the kind of "oh, s#!t, don't we suck and isn't everything in the toilet" moment that deserves this kind of focus.

CableKC
05-04-2011, 01:21 PM
Part of the article addresses your question -

"Patient with free agents who never made much of a contribution, like Sarunas Jasikevicius and Travis Diener. Patient with mistakes like giving two second-round choices, James White and Lance Stephenson, guaranteed contracts."

I quess, depending on which players a person likes or dislikes, the names could change to include D. Jones, and likely S. Jones.
This goes back to what I was saying about the Walsh-Era and Bird-Era. Was Cabbage, BallBoy and James White Bird decisions?

I get what you're saying here though....the Simons have patience as they trust their FO to make the right calls.

But in terms of major $$$, I don't think that Bird has spent too much $$$ on signing Inferno, Solo and Lance as they are long-term but not really expensive contracts.

Hicks
05-04-2011, 01:22 PM
Ultimately, though, I think that this is making a mountain out of a pile of dirt - it's bigger than a molehill, and interesting to investigate, but it really isn't the kind of "oh, s#!t, don't we suck and isn't everything in the toilet" moment that deserves this kind of focus.

Are you saying this while referring to the concept of what Simon won't spend money on, or are you saying this while referring to the fact that Bird said what he said in public?

CableKC
05-04-2011, 01:26 PM
The only mystery to me is why it took Bob so long to get this out.
It takes time to research PD to come up with an article to write. ;)

BillS
05-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Are you saying this while referring to the concept of what Simon won't spend money on, or are you saying this while referring to the fact that Bird said what he said in public?

What Bird said in public. It's worth looking into because it is odd and not seen as typical subordinate-to-boss behavior, but (since no one is ASKING what he meant) it isn't worth this fuss.

Everything about what Simon will or won't spend is pure speculation (except that he has said he's willing to spend up to the tax threshold, and discussion about whether that's enough is fine but not some sort of franchise destroying decision, I think)

spazzxb
05-04-2011, 02:49 PM
Bob writes anything negative about the Pacers = Terrible column, he doesn't know how to do his job. Kravitz is a terrible columnist.

Bob writes anything positive about the Pacers = Great column, what's wrong with Kravitz?

If Bob writes a good column people are typically just surprised. Just because Bob likes to complain (just like his supporters:-) doesn't mean Bobs work isn't just on fire with ignorance at times. Wether you agree or disagree doesn't matter, its wether there is any reason to to give extra weight to anything he has to say. If an author doesn't care about being accurate in there writing, people shouldn't treat his articles as a news source. His articles (as seen on PD) are more like Bobs soapbox thread.

Peck
05-04-2011, 02:56 PM
It does strike me that Bird may think it's time to go for another big-name coach, and that Simon may not be comfortable with what has happened to coaching money in recent years (as has been stated before).

Ultimately, though, I think that this is making a mountain out of a pile of dirt - it's bigger than a molehill, and interesting to investigate, but it really isn't the kind of "oh, s#!t, don't we suck and isn't everything in the toilet" moment that deserves this kind of focus.

What????

Are you seriously thinking that this is scrutiny?

He wrote one opinion piece on the subject and you are ringing the alarm bells as though he has brought about Ragnarok. (yes I'm using hyperbole but I'm doing so to emphasize that your statement of "Oh, s#!t, don't we suck and isn't everything in the toilet" is also hyperbole).

You do know that WTHR, which covers the Pacers even less than what Bob does, thought so much about the statement that they had a reporter contact the owner to follow up on the question. You don't think that maybe that might not have been as bad if not worse than what Bob did?

IMO, you should be happy about this. Bob is actually protecting the one true Pacer in all of this and that is Herb Simon.

Trophy
05-04-2011, 03:54 PM
Back to the same old Kravitz here.

It was nice reading his positive, sunshine article after the playoffs for a change.

BillS
05-04-2011, 03:57 PM
Are you seriously thinking that this is scrutiny?

Well, no, it isn't "scrutiny", it's "hype". Scrutiny would be getting facts. Hype is talking about how much it sucks and how much trouble it means everyone is in and how bad the FO is because of it ... without doing any backing reporting.


He wrote one opinion piece on the subject and you are ringing the alarm bells as though he has brought about Ragnarok. (yes I'm using hyperbole but I'm doing so to emphasize that your statement of "Oh, s#!t, don't we suck and isn't everything in the toilet" is also hyperbole).

It's still just stirring the pot rather than trying to get to an answer of "why". Sure, Bob's job is to stir the pot. Seems like so is Wells'. Whose job out there is to dig up facts rather than just add another spoon to the pot?


You do know that WTHR, which covers the Pacers even less than what Bob does, thought so much about the statement that they had a reporter contact the owner to follow up on the question. You don't think that maybe that might not have been as bad if not worse than what Bob did?

No, the WTHR guy did the RIGHT thing by going and getting some factual response, rather than trying to psycho-socially analyze the situation from the comfort of his computer chair. Then he didn't go all "look at me, I'm speculating about how stupid someone in this whole thing is, ain't I smart" about it.


IMO, you should be happy about this. Bob is actually protecting the one true Pacer in all of this and that is Herb Simon.

Feh. He's not protecting Simon, he's using Simon's history as a stick to whack Bird with. After all, he doesn't fail to point out that Morris, who went looking for the other possible FO staff (a mistake according to Bob's so-well-thought-out comparison to his own abilities to cook Vietnamese food), was Simon's "right-hand man".

Sorry, the point still stands. Why blow a column on this issue? Because it's fun and gets people to start talking about the Pacers being incompetent again. If you can do that, why bother sending someone in to actually ask questions in interviews.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 04:24 PM
Maybe is not Nene, maybe he wants to pull a Joe Dumars and sign players that are going to take us to take the playoffs but are not good enough to do anything else, I don't know, MJ did that in Charlotte and Milwaukee did the same thing.


Yeah, how did that work out? 3 great examples for not doing the same.

Nah, I don't see Bird with this much cap pulling that mistake. He wants more, or at least he had better want more.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 04:39 PM
I'm throwing out a question for thought. Could it be Bird was talking about spending money for former Celtic buddy Kevin McHale in some sort of capacity? McHale is being interviewed for a coaching job, I believe, in Houston.

Peck
05-04-2011, 05:13 PM
Well, no, it isn't "scrutiny", it's "hype". Scrutiny would be getting facts. Hype is talking about how much it sucks and how much trouble it means everyone is in and how bad the FO is because of it ... without doing any backing reporting.



It's still just stirring the pot rather than trying to get to an answer of "why". Sure, Bob's job is to stir the pot. Seems like so is Wells'. Whose job out there is to dig up facts rather than just add another spoon to the pot?



No, the WTHR guy did the RIGHT thing by going and getting some factual response, rather than trying to psycho-socially analyze the situation from the comfort of his computer chair. Then he didn't go all "look at me, I'm speculating about how stupid someone in this whole thing is, ain't I smart" about it.



Feh. He's not protecting Simon, he's using Simon's history as a stick to whack Bird with. After all, he doesn't fail to point out that Morris, who went looking for the other possible FO staff (a mistake according to Bob's so-well-thought-out comparison to his own abilities to cook Vietnamese food), was Simon's "right-hand man".

Sorry, the point still stands. Why blow a column on this issue? Because it's fun and gets people to start talking about the Pacers being incompetent again. If you can do that, why bother sending someone in to actually ask questions in interviews.

I went back to read the article just to see if maybe I missed something.

Instead of the back and forth let me just ask.

What do you specifically object to in this article?

BillS
05-04-2011, 05:32 PM
I went back to read the article just to see if maybe I missed something.

Instead of the back and forth let me just ask.

What do you specifically object to in this article?

The attitude. The "What was Bird thinking" column that proceeds, with great faith in his own infallibility, to tell us what Bird was thinking. The pointed lack of mention of the positive things Bird has done, rather like certain posters on PD. The complete lack of any follow-up or direct questioning of the principals involved, except to quote the WTHR report.

As I said, I understand Kravitz is a <i>columnist</i>. The problem is that there isn't a <i>reporter</i> at the Star to balance him out, not since Wells has found the joy of 140-character fame.

I just want someone, anyone, with the access to ask questions and the cojones to actually ask them directly and then report the answers, instead of the self-promotion agenda to ask them in an easy-to-write negative column that serves no purpose for anyone but the writer.

Is that too much to ask? It seems so in these days of "my opinions ARE the facts" so-called 'journalism'.

BobbyMac
05-04-2011, 06:12 PM
Much as I hate to say it I think Kravitz is right. Such things should be kept to a private forum. I still think that Kravitz is not the proper person to cover sports in Indianapolis.

90'sNBARocked
05-04-2011, 07:23 PM
I like Bob

Probably in the minority here,

I will say I lkike his coverage more on the Colts

Pacerized
05-04-2011, 08:11 PM
Bird's answer to a question:

"The big question of mine to him is, 'Now that we have the money, will we be able to spend it?' " Bird said during his season-ending news conference. "We waited three years to get to this point, and now what can we do?"


Larry made one comment in answer to a question about being able to spend the cap space and it could have easily been taken as "is there anyone worth spending the cap space on this off season". The new CBA and possible lockout may make it difficult to spend our cap space. Call Larry out to make a decision, he owes that to the team but I don't think he threw Simon under the bus. I hope Larry is back, we need him to finish what he started. Bob is simply blowing this out of proportion to make a story.

Cactus Jax
05-04-2011, 08:21 PM
I'm throwing out a question for thought. Could it be Bird was talking about spending money for former Celtic buddy Kevin McHale in some sort of capacity? McHale is being interviewed for a coaching job, I believe, in Houston.

God I hope not

Peck
05-04-2011, 09:29 PM
The attitude. The "What was Bird thinking" column that proceeds, with great faith in his own infallibility, to tell us what Bird was thinking. The pointed lack of mention of the positive things Bird has done, rather like certain posters on PD. The complete lack of any follow-up or direct questioning of the principals involved, except to quote the WTHR report.

As I said, I understand Kravitz is a <i>columnist</i>. The problem is that there isn't a <i>reporter</i> at the Star to balance him out, not since Wells has found the joy of 140-character fame.

I just want someone, anyone, with the access to ask questions and the cojones to actually ask them directly and then report the answers, instead of the self-promotion agenda to ask them in an easy-to-write negative column that serves no purpose for anyone but the writer.

Is that too much to ask? It seems so in these days of "my opinions ARE the facts" so-called 'journalism'.

Ok fair enough. I know where you are coming from & while I certainly don't agree with where you go with these types of things I respect that you come from an honest place. In other words you have an honest fear about the stability of the franchise, which I get.

I just think in this case & I know you'll disagree (which is cool and all) I think Bob is somewhat looking out for the franchise. The real franchise, Herb Simon.

Larry can come or Larry could go & at the end of the day as long as Herb owns the company I feel good about the Pacers. Herb leaving on the hand makes me nervous.

graphic-er
05-04-2011, 10:04 PM
I stopped taking this article serious once Kravitz was Bashing Bird signing Travis Deiner. Signing a 3rd string point guard to be your 3rd string point guard isn't deserving of criticism.

speakout4
05-04-2011, 10:22 PM
I have no idea what Bird's motives were. If I'm Herb Simon who always valued the personal relationship with the guy running his club I would regard Larry's going public as breaking that trust relationship..In other words I don't see how Herb can trust Larry not to do something like that again.

If I'm Herb it's goodbye Larry. This was beyond stupid and Larry is not going to endear himself to any owner.

BillS
05-05-2011, 10:37 AM
Ok fair enough. I know where you are coming from & while I certainly don't agree with where you go with these types of things I respect that you come from an honest place. In other words you have an honest fear about the stability of the franchise, which I get.

I also don't think a pure "focus on the negative" reporting stance is a valid fix to the old "don't say anything bad" reporting stance. In recent times we find issues blowing up not because of actions but because of interpretations of things people have said in response to a single question, often taken out of context. In my mind, the job of a reporter (and this is where coming from a journalism family raises its head) is to go get the answers, not just to raise the questions and let the public speculate.

I think the focus on "is Bob right or wrong" covers up the issue, which is "is anyone trying to actually find out".

Unclebuck
05-05-2011, 11:37 AM
While I agree with Kravy that Bird should not have gone public, certainly some of his criticisms of Bird are off base.

"giving Rush a contract extension" - didn't we just pick up his option, he only has 1 more year guaranteed.

Saras was worth a shot, he didn't cripple the franchise. Diener was a cheap 3rd stringer.

Trading future second round draft picks - I don't care about it.

Kravy says he is patient with coaches and then he says he fired Rick too quickly.

Kravy is a good writer, I just don't respect his NBA writing. No real insight ever

Justin Tyme
05-05-2011, 12:01 PM
[QUOTE=Unclebuck;1230326]

"giving Rush a contract extension" - didn't we just pick up his option, he only has 1 more year guaranteed. /QUOTE]


I'm glad you brought that up. When I read it, I thought Kravitz was wrong, and then forgot to comment on it. It's things like this that make me feel Kravitz isn't that BB astute.

vnzla81
05-05-2011, 12:20 PM
You guys are forgetting that Kravitz hates Rush, he doesn't think he should play in the NBA, that is the reason why he made that comment.

Peck
05-05-2011, 12:30 PM
Well if nothing else Bob has once again been succesfull in his job. We are again talking about Bob.

Hicks
05-05-2011, 12:54 PM
Well if nothing else Bob has once again been succesfull in his job. We are again talking about Bob.

You like to bring this up after any column that gets a thread going. Do you really care about Bob getting people to talk?

Peck
05-05-2011, 01:07 PM
You like to bring this up after any column that gets a thread going. Do you really care about Bob getting people to talk?

Not beyond commenting that it is his job. At some point in the conversation I think it's good to remember that his articles are designed specifically to make a conversation. Like the way Rush Limbaugh is on the Radio or Keith Olberman was on T.V.

Bob is like them with the exception that instead of picking one side or the other he just takes a strong stand on a position & puts it out there. Whether or not he even believes what he is saying himself is often debatable but it makes people go back read what he is saying again and again.

PR07
05-05-2011, 01:19 PM
I'm never a fan of airing out your laundry to the public, so in that regard, I agree with Kravitz. However, did Travis Diener's signing really set the Pacers back at all? We paid him slightly more than the minimum. The fact that Kravitz mentioned that is ridiculous. We paid for a third string PG, and that's what we got.

aaronb
05-05-2011, 01:31 PM
I'm never a fan of airing out your laundry to the public, so in that regard, I agree with Kravitz. However, did Travis Diener's signing really set the Pacers back at all? We paid him slightly more than the minimum. The fact that Kravitz mentioned that is ridiculous. We paid for a third string PG, and that's what we got.


Did we need to give him 3 years of guaranteed money? Did he lead us anywhere? While the signing wasn't earth shattering. It fell into the same category of the D/S Jones' signings. Why tie up over market guaranteed money. ALONG WITH THE ROSTER SPOT. For what are basically replacement level and below players?

Well run teams use the D-League to develop guys, and leave roster spots 12-15 open for prospects and developmental projects. We use it to house 4 year 10 million dollar 15th men.

Especially considering the fact we've been reportedly losing 15+ million per year and asking for city govt handouts.

McKeyFan
05-05-2011, 03:50 PM
I kinda wish Travis was still around. Be nice to see a point guard who can actually distribute the ball a little.

speakout4
05-05-2011, 05:33 PM
[QUOTE=vnzla81;1230339]You guys are forgetting that Kravitz hates Rush, he doesn't think he should play in the NBA, that is the reason why he made that comment.[/QUOTE

Seriously you think there are people who don't agree with that?
Kravitz doesn't take positions that are unpopular or outlandish. He takes positions that are mainstream and exaggerates them.

Justin Tyme
05-05-2011, 05:52 PM
Be nice to see a point guard who can actually distribute the ball a little.


At the right time, get others involved, and not take it upon themselves to constantly shoot the ball while giving out ONE Ast in a game. It's bad when your bigs often have more asts than your PG's.

pacerfreak
05-05-2011, 06:48 PM
Well if nothing else Bob has once again been succesfull in his job. We are again talking about Bob.
What about Bob? :D

Peck
05-05-2011, 07:53 PM
At the right time, get others involved, and not take it upon themselves to constantly shoot the ball while giving out ONE Ast in a game. It's bad when your bigs often have more asts than your PG's.

It's a combination of type of point guards we have and the type of offense we ran until the end of the season.

I'm hoping beyond hope that a training camp under a different head coach (Vogel or other) will bring A.J. back to being a point guard again. Collision already made somewhat of a transition as the season progressed but A.J. never did.

Unclebuck
05-06-2011, 08:20 AM
It's a combination of type of point guards we have and the type of offense we ran until the end of the season.

I'm hoping beyond hope that a training camp under a different head coach (Vogel or other) will bring A.J. back to being a point guard again. Collision already made somewhat of a transition as the season progressed but A.J. never did.


When did you ever see Price "being a point guard". Up until the last couple of months he only played for 1 NBA coach - so I don't understand.

I think if we intend to stay with collison we need a defensive-minded bigger point guard - not AJ price.

Tom White
05-06-2011, 08:58 AM
Bird's answer to a question:

"The big question of mine to him is, 'Now that we have the money, will we be able to spend it?' " Bird said during his season-ending news conference. "We waited three years to get to this point, and now what can we do?"



Thank you for posting this by itself. Those who think Bird may be talking about spending on the FO or coaching should re-read this part. It is clearly the cap space available to use on players (FA or included in a trade) that Bird is talking about.

Roaming Gnome
05-06-2011, 09:04 AM
Thank you for posting this by itself. Those who think Bird may be talking about spending on the FO or coaching should re-read this part. It is clearly the cap space available to use on players (FA or included in a trade) that Bird is talking about.

I personally never thought he was JUST talking about FA. I thought that he was talking about taking on a lot more salary through trades!

Peck
05-06-2011, 12:43 PM
When did you ever see Price "being a point guard". Up until the last couple of months he only played for 1 NBA coach - so I don't understand.

I think if we intend to stay with collison we need a defensive-minded bigger point guard - not AJ price.

Good point. I was going on faith that those who said he did so more in college.

Also when he did first get some playing time he didn't seem to look for his shot so much.

But like you said, I guess I never really saw it.

Sookie
05-06-2011, 02:11 PM
Good point. I was going on faith that those who said he did so more in college.

Also when he did first get some playing time he didn't seem to look for his shot so much.

But like you said, I guess I never really saw it.

He was, he actually had one of the best balances I've seen of knowing when to score and knowing when to pass, out of a point guard. And if anything, went on the side not shooting enough. (Calhoun used to rant about it.) I've said this before, he's averaging over 7 shots a game in 15 minutes here, and at Uconn averaged 10 shots in 35 minutes. It's actually hilarious, because if he would have played like this at Uconn, we probably would have won more games. I probably wouldn't have been as big of a fan though.

I'll point out, no one had a problem with the way Price was playing with "the Goon Squad" Because he had guys that he could actually run an offense with. In fact, many here wanted him to start.

But when you're playing with a lineup of Dahntay/Dun/Brandon, Gimpy Josh, and Foster, he's the guy that needed to look for his shot. I don't like Price playing like that, and I think sometimes he was too quick to pull the trigger, but it's understandable over why he did what he did. Really, who would you have liked to see shooting the ball other than Price? Dun..okay..and when Dun re-entered the lineup, Price's assists went way up...but then Dun stunk in the playoffs. Rush? Are you kidding me? We could try, odds are Price would have just gotten the ball back with a lot less time to look for his own shot. Foster? Gimpy Josh? Those two were bricking layups in the playoffs. Dahntay..okay..but that's isolation, you don't run an offense with Dahntay as the main focus, and everyone gets mad at Dahntay when he has the ball anyway. Then you add in that Vogel was encouraging Price to keep shooting..Would people have rather he "Played like a point guard" on principle, and have us not score at all? Because that's what would have happened. At the end of the day, playing basketball the right way is nice and all, but the team with the most points wins.

There was something mentally wrong with Price for a while this season. Between mental mistakes and missing free throws, something was certainly off. (And the mental part of Price's game, is the best part.) But the shooting too much, it was understandable..and quite frankly needed. That said, as a fan of his, whatever the reason for why he was doing it (He was being told too, he looked at the other four guys on the court and knew he had too, the results of aversion therapy that O'brien instilled :laugh:, or just a sudden change of heart on what kind of player he was.), it needs to stop. Because that's not his best quality as a player, and to get pigeonholed like that would be bad for his career, and bad for the team. However, if we're going to keep throwing him out on the floor with four guys that can't or won't score, he has to keep shooting, because he can score. (That said, the hope is probably to upgrade the SG and PF position, which would mean that AJ plays with Hans and PG, so it shouldn't be a problem.)

Now with Collison, if we plan to stick with Collison, he needs to improve his defense. I get a kick out of "we'll need a defensive backup PG" Really, we'll need a defensive PG that can come in and play 15 minutes against the other team's backup pg. That'll help? If we're going with DC as the starter, we're going with DC as the starter. And he'll need to improve his flaws. Getting a defensive backup PG doesn't help at all, because it'll still be Collison that is playing a majority of the minutes. And if we can't use Collison against the better PGs because of his defense, then we'll have to look at upgrading the starter position. (Which I don't think is necessary at all. Give him a chance to improve. Second year 4 or 5 different coaches..I'm sure his defense will be pointed out to him this summer, and it'll be something he'll work on.)

The point guards on this team, were evaluated this season, like they were veterans. And they aren't. Second year point guards do stupid stuff, they make a lot of mistakes ect.. But I've seen fantastic point guard play from both of them at times, which means they have the potential to be really good point guards, if given the time to improve. Quite frankly, I think we've got the potential to have a really really good PG duo for years to come.

vnzla81
05-06-2011, 04:30 PM
Saying that AJ shoots to much because he is playing with Foster,Josh,DJ and Dunleavy is pure excuses, just look at Greivis Vasquez in Memphis, he is just a rookie and plays with Memphis second unit(Arthur,Battier,Mayo,Gasol) and neither one of those players are amazing offensibly(maybe Mayo when is hot) what is GV doing everytime he gets the ball? he organize, he tells the players were they need to be, he calls the plays and if the play is denied he tries to make a play for one of his teammates and as the last resource score.

Compare this with AJ or DC, all they think about is scoring, there is nothing in their games that tells me that they are willing passers, they both suck at making simple passes, they can't even feed the post and suck at making adjustments when option one is denied, just look at game #3 in the playoffs.

Kegboy
05-06-2011, 04:49 PM
I stopped taking this article serious once Kravitz was Bashing Bird signing Travis Deiner. Signing a 3rd string point guard to be your 3rd string point guard isn't deserving of criticism.

Yeah, but signing a 3rd string point guard to three years, $5 million does.

BillS
05-06-2011, 05:24 PM
Yeah, but signing a 3rd string point guard to three years, $5 million does.

That's not much over the vet minimum.

Sookie
05-06-2011, 06:51 PM
Saying that AJ shoots to much because he is playing with Foster,Josh,DJ and Dunleavy is pure excuses, just look at Greivis Vasquez in Memphis, he is just a rookie and plays with Memphis second unit(Arthur,Battier,Mayo,Gasol) and neither one of those players are amazing offensibly(maybe Mayo when is hot) what is GV doing everytime he gets the ball? he organize, he tells the players were they need to be, he calls the plays and if the play is denied he tries to make a play for one of his teammates and as the last resource score.

Compare this with AJ or DC, all they think about is scoring, there is nothing in their games that tells me that they are willing passers, they both suck at making simple passes, they can't even feed the post and suck at making adjustments when option one is denied, just look at game #3 in the playoffs.


Gasol and Mayo can score. In fact, Gasol and Mayo ARE scorers. Battier is a willing shooter, and I'll be honest I don't have a clue who Arthur is. :laugh:

If it's an excuse, than you tell me which of the four: Playoff Dun, Brandon, Gimpy Josh or Foster should (realistically, in a Dream world it would be Brandon..but..) be the primary scorer in the second unit. I'll wait...

I personally think, what we were doing, which was essentially letting Josh and Dun try to create stuff for AJ, was probably our best bet. (In the playoffs, where Dun wasn't shooting well. When Dun came back from his injury, he was used as the #1 option)

And I've seen plenty of great passes from both of them to know that they are willing passers. DC is a scoring point guard. That's fine, I don't know why people have such a problem with it. The MVP is a scoring point guard. It's not like he's selfish. He makes some poor decisions sometimes and takes some shots he shouldn't take, but that doesn't make him not a willing passer. He just needs to learn better shot selection. I actually think "focus" is DC's biggest problem. And that's probably a maturity thing.

AJ is much more balanced than he's shown. And it actually becomes obvious when you put him on the floor with other guys that can score. The last five minutes of Game 2 was the best PG play of the series--everything positive that happened for the Pacers, Price was a part of. (With the exception of PG going to the line on an isolation play) And a majority of it was creating plays for others. If you don't believe me go ahead and watch it again.

As I said, no one had a problem with the way he was playing when he was with "the Goon Squad" Because he was the third scoring option and he played that way. AJ is at his best then..when he can run the team and pick and chose when he scores, instead of being a primary scorer. However, seeing as he's capable of having short bursts of a ton of scoring, and seeing as the rest of the team's scorers were all in the starting lineup, it's not a shock that he was used that way. If Vogel didn't want Price to play that way, all he would have had to do was tell him to stop. But he didn't. Instead, when Price was in the middle of redefining the word "shooting slump", Vogel (and the team) told him to keep shooting.

That doesn't mean I think that's how he should play. He's capable of playing however a coach wants him to play, but he's best..as I said..at being a "court general" running a team, and choosing his spots on when to score. And I think for his career and for the betterment of the team, he should get back to that. But he can't do that if you put him on the floor with guys who can't score.

Naptown_Seth
05-07-2011, 01:05 AM
Having something positive to write about has been the exception for several years.

Just because you don't like the things he has to write about, it doesn't mean they are wrong.
I don't even respect Bob's knowledge base that fuels most of his articles, but this also seems to be the main trend. I'm more annoyed when he says something positive that I think is way over the top if you really followed the team, only to see it roundly praised here at PD because god forbid we actually analyze a mediocre team as being mediocre....haters.


Personally I'm strongly of the mindset that you DO NOT SPEND THE MONEY this summer. Someone is going to 100% overpay for Nene and get the same exact value Detroit got out of signing Charlie V. It's not like Chuck was stinking up the world when he was a FA, and even now it's just more an issue with paying higher than market value.

There isn't going to be an over-the-top available guy in this FA field and the Pacers don't need more bench help. The Ford-Dun cash needs to go to one player that can really be the main scoring leader on most nights...at ANY position.

So you hold that cap space and wait for someone to trade a player mid-season to get cap relief when things stop going so well (ahem, Chris Paul before he goes FA to leave the Hornets perhaps). You also might hold on for leverage in the better FA class next summer or to help facilitate a trade up/into the next draft that should be better.


The fact that Bird is jockeying to spend money this year almost in a "regardless of the market" sense really worries me. You don't have to push Simon because it's very possible that you won't have anyone worth spending as much as they will command in the FA market...think about the other teams that came up empty in the Lebron/etc chase this year that want to get something going...Nets for example.

Heck, we might not even have a season which makes his carping utterly moot. And a smart person knows this is the situation. Why show any cards when you don't have to? He just folded when everyone before him checked. That's not a good sign from your GM.



I'm actually suspicious that this is another "path to my exit" move by Larry, just like he pulled with his "they tune out coaches after 3 years" prepared explanation for "hey, I want to retire to Tampa, see ya later" move. He wants to walk away but wants to come off as not being a guy that walked away on his own but instead was forced out by circumstances beyond his control.

He's laying the groundwork for justification of quitting.

Hicks
05-07-2011, 11:04 AM
So because of what Bird said you now think he is exclusively looking to spend money on free agents and that he is not considering other options?

Hicks
05-07-2011, 11:10 AM
Comparing Nene to Villanueva is, IMO, over the top.

The similarities end after "weak free agent class, someone has overpaid or will overpay for them."

Nene is a two-way player, V isn't.
Nene is a legitimate big man (F/C, C/F), V isn't.
Nene isn't going to lose his starting role.
Nene isn't going to get any DNP-CD's.
Nene would be a more important player for us than V is for Detroit.

Again, he's probably going to be overpaid, but never forget that we're dealing with a higher quality product this time around than Detroit was that summer.

With all of that said, I, too, am hoping we can get creative with our cap space regarding a trade to bring in some real talent. But I'm fine with Nene, to a point, as well.