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Professor S
05-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Already posted this in the "Pacers contact Spurs" thread but thought maybe it deserved its own.

https://twitter.com/elpacero/status/65422270092414977 (https://twitter.com/#!/elpacero/status/65422270092414977)


Found out Bird met w/ Simon last week & cap $ was an issue. Either Wed or Thurs, thinking before media stuff but not sure.

Reading El Pacero's Twitter, and his subsequent conversation with me there, it appears a prior meeting may have prompted Bird calling out Simon at the press conference. Perhaps we are about to have a lot of cap space that he isn't willing to spend. Which would be very, very frustrating.

Will Galen
05-03-2011, 01:03 PM
Already posted this in the "Pacers contact Spurs" thread but thought maybe it deserved its own.

https://twitter.com/elpacero/status/65422270092414977 (https://twitter.com/#!/elpacero/status/65422270092414977)

Reading El Pacero's Twitter, and his subsequent conversation with me there, it appears a prior meeting may have prompted Bird calling out Simon at the press conference. Perhaps we are about to have a lot of cap space that he isn't willing to spend. Which would be very, very frustrating.

Bird said in his press conference he had just talked to Herb. Not sure but I believe he said yesterday.

MiaDragon
05-03-2011, 01:09 PM
Already posted this in the "Pacers contact Spurs" thread but thought maybe it deserved its own.

https://twitter.com/elpacero/status/65422270092414977 (https://twitter.com/#!/elpacero/status/65422270092414977)

Reading El Pacero's Twitter, and his subsequent conversation with me there, it appears a prior meeting may have prompted Bird calling out Simon at the press conference. Perhaps we are about to have a lot of cap space that he isn't willing to spend. Which would be very, very frustrating.

If true I don't want to hear anything from the FO complaining about attendance. If you're not willing to do everything in your power to put a winning product on the floor then you're not worth my hard earned money. Its quite simple.

aaronb
05-03-2011, 01:12 PM
If true I don't want to hear anything from the FO complaining about attendance. If you're not willing to do everything in your power to put a winning product on the floor then you're not worth my hard earned money. Its quite simple.


This reeks of Bird/Morway trying to start a propaganda war in an effort to keep their jobs.

Eddie Gill
05-03-2011, 01:18 PM
This doesn't sound good. The optimist in me says this is a pretty weak FA class and perhaps Simon is simply reluctant to overspend. Either way, this sort of front office bickering is still a buzzkill after what has been such a positive and productive couple months.

Lou Bega
05-03-2011, 01:19 PM
This reeks of Bird/Morway trying to start a propaganda war in an effort to keep their jobs.

If you were Larry Legend or anybody wanting the job wouldnt you like to know what the owner plans to do with the teams cap space before accepting the positon?

It is an interesting point. You are well documented Anti Larry but don't late your hatred for him cloud your logic.

Trader Joe
05-03-2011, 01:20 PM
This is a pretty serious charge from El Pacero...

I'd like to know more.

aaronb
05-03-2011, 01:23 PM
If you were Larry Legend or anybody wanting the job wouldnt you like to know what the owner plans to do with the teams cap space before accepting the positon?

It is an interesting point. You are well documented Anti Larry but don't late your hatred for him cloud your logic.


I have absolutely zero hatred for Larry Bird as a person. I just think he's been largely over matched by smarter, and better educated front office guys.

I'd be fine with him as a coach, or scout, or in an advisor role.

I do think that if Kevin Pritchard is out there and willing to come. He's the obvious choice to move us to the next level.

El Pacero
05-03-2011, 01:25 PM
That's really all I know. It sounded like there was disappointment and concern about being able to spend money after the meeting.

Can't name details about the source cause I don't want to lose it, but it has nothing to do with the mask fwiw.

Tom White
05-03-2011, 01:25 PM
If you were Larry Legend or anybody wanting the job wouldnt you like to know what the owner plans to do with the teams cap space before accepting the positon?



Yes, but that is a conversation to be held in private, not in the media.

BillS
05-03-2011, 01:26 PM
Am I just naive or could this simply be Larry making sure Simon is on PUBLIC record so that Larry isn't on record and then runs into a business decision made behind closed doors?

I mean, once again we're getting all worked up over a tweet that isn't even definite (ETA: and that El Pacero says was no more definite from his source). Considering what Herb went on record with, I would consider that the issue was resolved.

At some point we need to stop being so quick to believe that anything uncertain is an indication of critical problems.

And I think spending more money than you could hope to get by 41 sellouts + playoffs would not be good business, so Simon not overspending isn't anywhere near something you say "don't complain about attendance" - that's like telling a retailer "don't complain about low sales unless you sell everything below cost!"

docpaul
05-03-2011, 01:37 PM
This has little relevance today, IMO... as Simon responded publicly after the fact saying that he is willing to spend up to the cap. Even if he expressed reservations earlier privately, he's on record with Rich Nye suggesting that his feelings, at the minimum, have evolved.

I suspect that the quibbling might be more related with how much he's willing to spend for management and front office. It's been said that Bird makes up to 5million/year. Bird would likely like to continue making that amount. Pritchard probably doesn't come cheaply.

This is a more likely source of the disconnect.

Will Galen
05-03-2011, 01:46 PM
This doesn't sound good. The optimist in me says this is a pretty weak FA class and perhaps Simon is simply reluctant to overspend. Either way, this sort of front office bickering is still a buzzkill after what has been such a positive and productive couple months.

We don't really know there is any bickering, or any reluctance by Herb to spend money. People on here form opinions on whatever the latest gossip is on the Internet. For instant yesterday we read Bell was stabbed, now he's saying via twitter he wasn't. Stuff like that is happening more and more.

The Pacers situation will play out soon.

I think Bird will be back and he will have a free hand to hire who he wants, and spend up to the tax line. As for spending money, I think Bird will get good deals or there will be no deals.

Trophy
05-03-2011, 02:38 PM
If Simon is gonna be this greedy with his money, then he should just sell the team now.

This team has so many positives any owner would love to have from his team. Top class arena, nearly $40M in cap space, a young core already. As the current owner, he should be jumping all over using the free space to add more talent and impress people to want to come out and see your team again.

I've always respected the Simons, but this just isn't smart to not use the cap space for whatever reason. You want your product to look good for people to want to buy it. It requires spending money and quite frankly, we have it now.

You gotta spend money to gain money. Spend the cap space on a solid player or 2 and then in the end the attendance will rise with this team being a lot more competitive having more solid players and more money will be made than it would've been if it was to be saved up.

I'm not 100% sure he honestly doesn't want to spend the money. He did say he was disappointed Bird pointed it out because he wants to.

So we'll see.

naptownmenace
05-03-2011, 02:53 PM
If true I don't want to hear anything from the FO complaining about attendance. If you're not willing to do everything in your power to put a winning product on the floor then you're not worth my hard earned money. Its quite simple.

Whoa, there! I respect El Pacero 100% but I still think we should take this with a grain or 2 of salt.

Let's not jump to conclusions. We'll know what's going on very soon.

BringJackBack
05-03-2011, 02:53 PM
Oh my God..

Justin Tyme
05-03-2011, 03:21 PM
[QUOTE=Trophy;1229428]

If Simon is gonna be this greedy with his money, then he should just sell the team now. /QUOTE]


I've been saying for the last year this team has been positioned for a future sale within the next few years. I wouldn't be surprised at all after the new CBA has been signed for Simon to put the Pacers up for sale.

El Pacero
05-03-2011, 03:22 PM
Yeah, you can't really take much from this and we don't know what's changed since last week...

pacer4ever
05-03-2011, 03:24 PM
There is no really good players to spend money on anyways

Trophy
05-03-2011, 03:28 PM
I've been saying for the last year this team has been positioned for a future sale within the next few years. I wouldn't be surprised at all after the new CBA has been signed for Simon to put the Pacers up for sale.

Yeah I agree.

Selling the team now or very soon is very appealing towards interested buyers with what this team currently has as well as what this team already has.

I won't be surprised if next season, he'll put the team up for sale. He probably won't have to wait long since there's so many appealing things this team has.

I am interested in what he'll do about the Fever. A new owner might not want to be responsible for them too.

Trophy
05-03-2011, 03:30 PM
There is no really good players to spend money on anyways

Yeah I'm looking forward to 2012.

Hopefully Simon not looking to spend the cap space NOW is a sign that he's not interested in this FA class and he and the FO will be very active the following summer.

Hopefully making an active approach to get EJ and make a few S&Ts if needed.

aaronb
05-03-2011, 03:40 PM
Yeah I'm looking forward to 2012.

Hopefully Simon not looking to spend the cap space NOW is a sign that he's not interested in this FA class and he and the FO will be very active the following summer.

Hopefully making an active approach to get EJ and make a few S&Ts if needed.


That is exactly what the cap space should be used for.

We need to look at how the Grizzlies used their cap room.

Everyone talked that organization down when they traded Pau Gasol. If you look at the return though. It was absolutely the correct move.

"On February 1, 2008, Gasol was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers along with a 2010 second round draft pick for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, the rights to Marc Gasol (Pau's younger brother), and 2008 and 2010 first round draft picks."


Marc Gasol
Crittendon (who was flipped to Washington for another 1st round pick)
2 other first rounders
Kwame Brown's expiring deal that they used to get Zach Randolph for nothing

So having cap room and trading Pau Gasol netted

3 1st round picks
Marc Gasol
Zach Randolph


Plus they have been able to be middle men brokers in the Shawn Marion trade among others to add picks.

Just gotta have someone in the front office creative enough to get things done.

pacergod2
05-03-2011, 03:44 PM
That is exactly what the cap space should be used for.

We need to look at how the Grizzlies used their cap room.

Everyone talked that organization down when they traded Pau Gasol. If you look at the return though. It was absolutely the correct move.

"On February 1, 2008, Gasol was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers along with a 2010 second round draft pick for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, the rights to Marc Gasol (Pau's younger brother), and 2008 and 2010 first round draft picks."

Marc Gasol
Crittendon (who was flipped to Washington for another 1st round pick)
2 other first rounders
Kwame Brown's expiring deal that they used to get Zach Randolph for nothing

So having cap room and trading Pau Gasol netted

3 1st round picks
Marc Gasol
Zach Randolph

Plus they have been able to be middle men brokers in the Shawn Marion trade among others to add picks.

I'll thank you for everything up to this point.

RWB
05-03-2011, 03:44 PM
Hello and welcome home Donnie Walsh. :devil:

Shade
05-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Whoa, there! I respect El Pacero 100% but I still think we should take this with a grain or 2 of salt.

Let's not jump to conclusions. We'll know what's going on very soon.

That's why he said "if true."

xBulletproof
05-03-2011, 03:46 PM
This reeks of Bird/Morway trying to start a propaganda war in an effort to keep their jobs.

How would starting a war with the owner help one to keep their job? Especially when their contract is up and it's easy to just hire someone else. :laugh:

Your blind hatred for all that is Larry Bird just kills your common sense.

aaronb
05-03-2011, 03:46 PM
I'll thank you for everything up to this point.


Point is that for small markets to really excel. Then need to be creative in how they broker deals. OKC, Memphis and Portland are prime examples of this.

aaronb
05-03-2011, 03:47 PM
How would starting a war with the owner help one to keep their job? Especially when their contract is up and it's easy to just hire someone else. :laugh:

Your blind hatred for all that is Larry Bird just kills your common sense.


When the man in question is a local legend with some strong local support.

xBulletproof
05-03-2011, 03:57 PM
When the man in question is a local legend with some strong local support.

I fail to see the strong local support. The only person I ever see, or hear mention that Larry is from Indiana, is you. I see him as a Boston Celtic more than anything. You've drummed that whole thing up in your head.

RWB
05-03-2011, 04:01 PM
I fail to see the strong local support. The only person I ever see, or hear mention that Larry is from Indiana, is you. I see him as a Boston Celtic more than anything. You've drummed that whole thing up in your head.

I don't know, you still see people line up every game to get this has been's autograph.

xBulletproof
05-03-2011, 04:04 PM
I don't know, you still see people line up every game to get this has been's autograph.

Could be because he's an NBA Legend, and one of the best to ever play. You think if our GM was Magic Johnson, it would be any different?

Roaming Gnome
05-03-2011, 04:08 PM
Just gotta have someone in the front office creative enough to get things done.

I guess turning Troy Murphy into Darren Collison wasn't creative at all.... Any simp could've done that.

Carry on pushing your agenda... :sigh:

MiaDragon
05-03-2011, 04:21 PM
Whoa, there! I respect El Pacero 100% but I still think we should take this with a grain or 2 of salt.

Let's not jump to conclusions. We'll know what's going on very soon.

Agree 100%, why I caveatted with "if true".

naptownmenace
05-03-2011, 04:26 PM
Agree 100%, why I caveatted with "if true".

Cool. :highfive:

aaronb
05-03-2011, 04:28 PM
Could be because he's an NBA Legend, and one of the best to ever play. You think if our GM was Magic Johnson, it would be any different?


Except the Lakers had the good sense to fire Magic when he couldn't get the job done in a management capacity.

aaronb
05-03-2011, 04:31 PM
I guess turning Troy Murphy into Darren Collison wasn't creative at all.... Any simp could've done that.

Carry on pushing your agenda... :sigh:



He turned a rotation big man with a huge expiring deal into a backup PG drafted 21st overall? Nice little deal. Not anything really spectacular though.

xBulletproof
05-03-2011, 04:33 PM
Except the Lakers had the good sense to fire Magic when he couldn't get the job done in a management capacity.

And as is par for the course, for you .... you completely miss the point.

docpaul
05-03-2011, 04:40 PM
:mjpopcorn:

Brad8888
05-03-2011, 05:03 PM
Hello and welcome home Donnie Walsh. :devil:

And, if that is true, this is Herb and Donnie's new goat, Scape:

:bird:

daschysta
05-03-2011, 05:03 PM
He turned a rotation big man with a huge expiring deal into a backup PG drafted 21st overall? Nice little deal. Not anything really spectacular though.

Darren collison was first team all rookie, and even if he only develops into a good starter (I think he'll be a bit better than that) he's worth far more than murphy who people that actually watched the team and not just stats could easily point to being a negative to the team.

Eddie Gill
05-03-2011, 05:06 PM
You guys are much more entertaining than the Canadian Politics paper I should be writing...

aaronb
05-03-2011, 05:11 PM
Darren collison was first team all rookie, and even if he only develops into a good starter (I think he'll be a bit better than that) he's worth far more than murphy who people that actually watched the team and not just stats could easily point to being a negative to the team.


I actually like Darren Collision. I think he's probably a rotation player on 20-25 teams in the NBA. I thought the trade for him was probably the best transaction of the LB era.

I just wish we'd seen more vets for picks and prospect deals. Maybe more going youth over signing Diener's and D/S Jones's. Prospects over signing Earl Watson for instance?

judicata
05-03-2011, 05:40 PM
I actually like Darren Collision. I think he's probably a rotation player on 20-25 teams in the NBA. I thought the trade for him was probably the best transaction of the LB era.

I just wish we'd seen more vets for picks and prospect deals. Maybe more going youth over signing Diener's and D/S Jones's. Prospects over signing Earl Watson for instance?

Which young prospects should have been signed at those contract prices? Teams don't just forget to resign promising young players.

90'sNBARocked
05-03-2011, 05:56 PM
I dont see Bird as the problem, in fact, I think he has gotten better with time. I look at his draft picks and they have all improved. Roy was a solid pick at 17, Rush trade netted us McBob, which in turn almost netted us the #3 overall pick in the draft, OJ Mayo. Paul Geoge had a fantastic year and shows tremendous upside. No matter how the Lance situation pans out, even if he is cut next year, was a geat selction for a late second round pick

Bottom line (this comming from someone who initially liked Bird about as much as AaronB) he has earned the right to play with house money. We heard about the mytical 3 year plan for five years, but its here

Lets give Bird a shot, can Moway(who I think is not hgihly regarded) hire Pritchard , sign Vogel for 2 years with an option for 3, and let's see what Bird and company can do

Larry Staverman
05-03-2011, 06:42 PM
If Simon is gonna be this greedy with his money, then he should just sell the team now.

Let's see!!

1. You just finished paying off 10's of millions of $$ on the disaster that was Tinsley's contract and the trade remains of the Jackson and O'Neal contracts

2. Your team has been reported to have been losing up to $30 million a year

3. Your fan base has been so decimated that you now have the lowest attendance in the league

Any reasonable person would consider you a greedy b*stard if you wanted to proceed with caution before committing to spending $10's of millions more.


I want to improve the team as much as anyone but calling Herb Simon's greedy is B.S .

Anthem
05-03-2011, 07:23 PM
I guess turning Troy Murphy into Darren Collison wasn't creative at all.... Any simp could've done that.

Trading Bayless and Diogu to Portland for Rush/McRoberts/J.Jack was pretty creative as well.

idioteque
05-03-2011, 08:25 PM
If Simon isn't willing to spend, I'm not willing to spend any money on merch or tickets either.

Speed
05-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Simon has ALWAYS been willing to spend up to penalty and over if warranted; I do not believe this has changed, not for a second.

BillS
05-03-2011, 08:41 PM
Holy cow. The railroad train is running. "Dammit, Herb, if you aren't willing to lose at least another $40 million we aren't spending $10 on a ticket".

All of this from one vague statement.

Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split ya.

DaveP63
05-03-2011, 08:41 PM
I don't know, you still see people line up every game to get this has been's autograph.

Jesus. H. Christ. What utter :bs:

speakout4
05-03-2011, 09:08 PM
Let's see!!

1. You just finished paying off 10's of millions of $$ on the disaster that was Tinsley's contract and the trade remains of the Jackson and O'Neal contracts

2. Your team has been reported to have been losing up to $30 million a year

3. Your fan base has been so decimated that you now have the lowest attendance in the league

Any reasonable person would consider you a greedy b*stard if you wanted to proceed with caution before committing to spending $10's of millions more.


I want to improve the team as much as anyone but calling Herb Simon's greedy is B.S .
Without the Simon's the Indiana pacers might be called the NO, Charlotte, Miami, or Toronto pacers. I will always give the Simons the benefit of the doubt.

Trophy
05-03-2011, 09:28 PM
I tip my hat off to the Simons for having a great deal of passion for this team for nearly 20 years. They've kept this franchise one of the strongest in the league and were able to manage a team with a lot of history in a state with rich basketball history.

We've been fortunate to only have 2-3 ownership transactions.

When the day comes for Herb to turn over the Pacers, I hope whoever takes over ignites as much passion and pride in this team as the Simons have for years.

I'm hoping Herb is able to select who he wants purchasing the team. Is always best for the transaction to be between the original owner and the new owner.

imawhat
05-03-2011, 09:53 PM
I hope we don't spend much this offseason.

Seriously, can anyone blame Simon if he's not willing spend more? I'll roleplay for a minute.

Simon: "Let me get this straight...I can save $20+M AND field the same team that could have beaten the best team basketball with a little more experience?"

Hell yes. I wouldn't spend if I were Simon.

Trophy
05-03-2011, 10:00 PM
I think he'll be more than willing to use the cap space in 2012 when James Posey comes off the books too and there's plenty more options.

I'd be happy with signing Nene and S&T for Eric Gordon.

Getting Gordon wouldn't change anything as far as the salary since we're giving up a large contract (Danny's) and getting Gordon's new contract which would be about the same as what Danny signed.

Justin Tyme
05-03-2011, 10:16 PM
I fail to see the strong local support. The only person I ever see, or hear mention that Larry is from Indiana, is you. I see him as a Boston Celtic more than anything. You've drummed that whole thing up in your head.


I disagree. Walsh was an astute man, and when he hired Bird he played the Bird from IN card for PR reasons. Granted Bird played for the Celtics, but he's from IN and played his college BB here in IN. Bird is a legend here in IN and has STRONG IN ties and support. You seemed to be trying to down play Bird's IN connection when it is truly there.

My memory with Bird goes back to when he was playing BB in high school, was an IN Allstar, and played at ISU. I associate him with IN, and others do as well. They came to Pacers/Celtics games not to see McHale, DJ, the Chief, etc BUT that IN native Larry Bird.

Justin Tyme
05-03-2011, 10:23 PM
I guess turning Troy Murphy into Darren Collison wasn't creative at all.... Any simp could've done that.

Carry on pushing your agenda... :sigh:


Just a question? Do you know for sure it was Bird who was the one that orchestrated the DC for Murphy trade? Was it truly his trade, or he gets credit for it being in charge?

vnzla81
05-03-2011, 10:23 PM
If I was Simon I wouldn't trust Larry either, 30mil in cap space in the hands of the guy who hired JOB by phone? not only that but stay with the freaking guy for 3+ years? like I said before Larry got lucky that Vogel happened, if that didn't happen we could have been looking at another 11th, 12th or 13th pick in the draft and wouldn't even know what he have in our young guys.

xBulletproof
05-03-2011, 10:24 PM
I disagree. Walsh was an astute man, and when he hired Bird he played the Bird from IN card for PR reasons. Granted Bird played for the Celtics, but he's from IN and played his college BB here in IN. Bird is a legend here in IN and has STRONG IN ties and support. You seemed to be trying to down play Bird's IN connection when it is truly there.

My memory with Bird goes back to when he was playing BB in high school, was an IN Allstar, and played at ISU. I associate him with IN, and others do as well. They came to Pacers/Celtics games not to see McHale, DJ, the Chief, etc BUT that IN native Larry Bird.

The only people who remember Bird from Indiana are people who are old enough to remember Bird being from Indiana. So yes, there's a percentage of fans who may associate with him in that manner. Is the the majority of Pacers fans? I really don't think so.

HC
05-03-2011, 10:27 PM
I don't know, you still see people line up every game to get this has been's autograph.

The only word I can think of to say when there is nothing else to say




WoW

vnzla81
05-03-2011, 10:28 PM
Just a question? Do you know for sure it was Bird who was the one that orchestrated the DC for Murphy trade? Was it truly his trade, or he gets credit for it being in charge?

I read in an article that the trade was orchestraded by somebody else, remember that is was a 4 team deal.

PacersandIU
05-03-2011, 10:38 PM
The only people who remember Bird from Indiana are people who are old enough to remember Bird being from Indiana. So yes, there's a percentage of fans who may associate with him in that manner. Is the the majority of Pacers fans? I really don't think so.

I completely disagree-- I've grown up in Indiana and am attending ISU. Larry Legend is ours. He played for Boston, but that was before I really cared about basketball, and he's been part of the Pacers for a greater part of my life.

Either way, I think the "Indiana boy" thing doesn't get you very far anyway. I wouldn't give a care if Larry was pres, Steve Alford was the coach, and EGordon/JJeffries/Hayword/Oden/Connely was our starting line-up. Sure, it'd be kinda cool, but I'd prefer a winning team of people who had never stepped foot in Indiana over a Hoosier All-Star team that didn't win anything...

Justin Tyme
05-03-2011, 11:05 PM
Let's see!!

1. You just finished paying off 10's of millions of $$ on the disaster that was Tinsley's contract and the trade remains of the Jackson and O'Neal contracts

2. Your team has been reported to have been losing up to $30 million a year

3. Your fan base has been so decimated that you now have the lowest attendance in the league

Any reasonable person would consider you a greedy b*stard if you wanted to proceed with caution before committing to spending $10's of millions more.


I want to improve the team as much as anyone but calling Herb Simon's greedy is B.S .


WHOA WHOA! I never said that... Trophy did, and yet you pull it up with my moniker on it. How's that work? Give credit to who said it, and IT WASN'T ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't appreciate it and that's putting it VERY POLITELY!

Larry Staverman
05-03-2011, 11:21 PM
WHOA WHOA! I never said that... Trophy did, and yet you pull it up with my moniker on it. How's that work? Give credit to who said it, and IT WASN'T ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't appreciate it and that's putting it VERY POLITELY!

My apologies!! I was not trying to misrepresent your post. The quote in your post is not formatted correctly.

TROPHY IS THE ONE WHO CALLED SIMON GREEDY but I still call it B.S.

Trophy
05-03-2011, 11:22 PM
WHOA WHOA! I never said that... Trophy did, and yet you pull it up with my moniker on it. How's that work? Give credit to who said it, and IT WASN'T ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't appreciate it and that's putting it VERY POLITELY!

Thanks for being a tattle tail. :-p

I've stated in a following post how much I respect the Simons. They've been the best owners you can ask for.

I just hope Herb is able to spend to have this cap space spent so he can be able to make more money again.

Greedy may have been poor wording, but with what we're going to have, he can still bring in talent to make us a lot better by doing S&Ts and still have space.

Herb's a smart business man and I hope all works out for him and he's able to have a successful team and one that draws a lot of interest within the next fews years whatever his future has in stock.

This is an appealing team for those interested in buying once Herb is ready to sell. He'll have no problem.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 12:27 AM
There is no really good players to spend money on anyways

There's probably a couple free agents worth having, but there are 20 teams that are under the current tax line. We don't know what the next CBA will look like so that could change. However, there's no doubt in my mind that there will be competition for the top free agents and a team will have to overpay for them.

I prefer to wait and save money until there is a real difference maker available. If we over pay and the guy gets hurt we are hamstrung for years. So I don't want to gamble and overpay for someone that's not a major upgrade.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 12:48 AM
Just a question? Do you know for sure it was Bird who was the one that orchestrated the DC for Murphy trade? Was it truly his trade, or he gets credit for it being in charge?

Come on, your Bird hate is showing. No one is going to make a trade without Birds approval. Bird would be the only one in the office that could make a trade without consultation. But that's not the way it usually works. It's usually a discussion with several people having input, but Bird having the final say.

So yes he gets credit.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 12:52 AM
I read in an article that the trade was orchestraded by somebody else, remember that is was a 4 team deal.

As I already said, no one is making a trade that doesn't have Birds approval. Who was on the end of the phone doesn't matter.

Naptown_Seth
05-04-2011, 12:53 AM
That's really all I know. It sounded like there was disappointment and concern about being able to spend money after the meeting.

Can't name details about the source cause I don't want to lose it, but it has nothing to do with the mask fwiw.
Well Shade and I discussed this after game 1 - you 100% MUST SIT ON THE SPACE. You have to and if you don't then you are stupid and need to be fired...barring a miracle deal showing up.


The FA class is poor, the draft is thin and a CBA issue is looming. DO NOT GO JOE DUMARS ON THIS!!! Don't spend for spending's sake. Have a vision of the roster structure you want, set your targets and then ONLY ACCEPT THOSE GOALS (with the option to accept variations that show up but were overlooked by accident).

Don't sign or trade for player X just to fill up the cap and to add talent...that's what the Lance draft pick was all about. Get some talent despite the issues that might come with that.


Next season trades will likely pop up and then next summer you'll likely have much better FA options and a better draft to trade into or out of as needed.


Sorry Pacers fans, I know we're all ready to go but we're still fueling up and waiting on tires. Nothing gained by leaving the pits on rims with a half empty tank just for the sake of getting back in the mix sooner.

Naptown_Seth
05-04-2011, 12:58 AM
As I already said, no one is making a trade that doesn't have Birds approval. Who was on the end of the phone doesn't matter.
What he is saying is that someone else cooks up the deal and calls the Pacers. Larry says "sure, I guess that sounds pretty good" and the deal gets done.

Does this make Larry the same genius as if he had been the central guy coming up with the structure and making the sales pitch phone calls to talk other teams into agreeing? Of course not.


I don't know which way it went, but Bird can be in charge and doing all of the Pacers approving on a good trade that was basically given to him by another team. Being the final say doesn't automatically mean you're the idea man behind everything.

Sure saying yes to a good offer is better than saying no, but the brilliant strategy/sales guy is the one that makes the pitches and gets people to buy or sell what they normally wouldn't want to and that helps your team.

imawhat
05-04-2011, 01:07 AM
The trade was New Orleans' idea. I don't have the source but it's been posted on here before.

Naptown_Seth
05-04-2011, 01:11 AM
Trading Bayless and Diogu to Portland for Rush/McRoberts/J.Jack was pretty creative as well.
Bird has 2 brilliant moves to his scorecard, though he diluted both of them with how he followed them up.

1) You resign J Jack all the way. He stuck with TJ Ford/JOB instead and that was a mistake. Jack was the leader the team needed, basically a more effective and listened to D Jones and was at a position of need for less cost than TJ.

2) You buy out Rasho right away in the JO = TJ/Rasho/Hibbert deal. This saves a little bit of money and moves you along in the Roy development plan. Smits did full duty when Stipo came up injured for good. So what if Roy ends up fouling out of 46 games. He gets better sooner.

How much of those Rasho minutes contributed to anything in the Pacers future?


Both of those items bug me because they seemed really obvious even at the time, far more obvious than either of those deals were before they went down.



It comes off like I'm crushing Bird here and I'm really not. I just think he gets a lot of credit (like Dumars) for having some success almost in spite of some choices.

Everyone loves Tyler, but you would have loved Holiday and maybe also Buddinger in a 2 for 1 just as much. You love/like DC but if Holiday is already here maybe Troy is turned into a different player instead. Jrue has PG working so Troy ends up giving you frontline help from a team looking to get their own hands on DC.

We don't know because they didn't go that way, but it's silly to assume that how things went was the best possible option simply because they worked out okay.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 02:18 AM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;1229715]What he is saying is that someone else cooks up the deal and calls the Pacers. Larry says "sure, I guess that sounds pretty good" and the deal gets done.

I agree with that, but Bird still has to be the one to know it's a good deal and sign off on it. Not everyone agrees with what constitutes a good deal.

Does this make Larry the same genius as if he had been the central guy coming up with the structure and making the sales pitch phone calls to talk other teams into agreeing? Of course not.

Coming up with a trade doesn't take a genius. More like someone willing to go though all the permutations of a trade. That doesn't take a genius, it takes someone with a work ethic. Even so there's only a limited number of trades that one can come up with for any one player. Adding more players just makes more permutations you have to go though. Again, it doesn't take a genius to do that.

The fact is if you give me all the information, I could work out all the trades possible for any NBA player. In fact, if they don't already have it I expect software in the future will be able to do this. Then all a GM would have to do is look at a list and decide which trades he would do and which he wouldn't.

He of course would still have to consider needs, team chemistry, player attitudes, injury history, etc.

As for making a sales pitch, I think most teams know who they would trade for and who they wouldn't. It doesn't matter how good you are with the gift of gab you're not going to talk a team into a trade they think is bad.


I don't know which way it went, but Bird can be in charge and doing all of the Pacers approving on a good trade that was basically given to him by another team. Being the final say doesn't automatically mean you're the idea man behind everything.

I agree, but as I already said there are only a limited number of trades available, so being the idea man isn't that big of a deal. Recognizing a good deal is!

Sure saying yes to a good offer is better than saying no, but the brilliant strategy/sales guy is the one that makes the pitches and gets people to buy or sell what they normally wouldn't want to and that helps your team.

You're not normally going to talk a team into doing something they don't want to do . . . unless it's a last minute deal where they don't have all the time they want to talk over a deal. Bird's been in three last minute deals that haven't went though. All would have been good deals for the Pacers.

It could be he's trying these last minute pitches on purpose. That could make him the brilliant strategy/sales guy you're talking about. (grin)

RWB
05-04-2011, 10:04 AM
Jesus. H. Christ. What utter :bs:


The only word I can think of to say when there is nothing else to say




WoW



Originally Posted by xBulletproof
I fail to see the strong local support. The only person I ever see, or hear mention that Larry is from Indiana, is you. I see him as a Boston Celtic more than anything. You've drummed that whole thing up in your head.

I don't know, you still see people line up every game to get this has been's autograph.

Guess I should have used green font. This was in response to bulletproof and not seeing strong local support. Yes I believe Bird is still very popular.

DemonHunter1105
05-04-2011, 11:10 AM
As for me, I think of Bird as a Celtics Legend. I don't see him in the crowd and think to myself "there's Indiana's boy," or something like that.

Maybe it is just because of my relative youth to some of you guys, but I don't really care about his background that much. He is the President of our operations first and foremost that happens to be a Celtics great. He's from Indiana? Oh yeah, I guess that too.

If he was close enough to me and we were both not moving, I might ask him for his autograph. More because it might be worth something and to kill time. That's just my opinion of him.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 11:49 AM
Come on, your Bird hate is showing. No one is going to make a trade without Birds approval. Bird would be the only one in the office that could make a trade without consultation. But that's not the way it usually works. It's usually a discussion with several people having input, but Bird having the final say.

So yes he gets credit.


My disapproval, NOT hate, of Bird hasn't anything to do with this. Just b/c Bird gets credit for a trade that he gave the final say doesn't mean he was the brains behind the trade nor should get credit for it.

Walsh didn't put the trade together in order to get a 7.5 mil TE in the NOLA trade of Peja. Should he be given credit for it just, b/c he has final say?

If you have been in sales or business, there are times someone gets credit for something someone else did all the ground work to produce. I'm just asking if Bird HIMSELF put these deals together or if someone else did and Bird just signed off on them. "I feel that is a fair question to ask."

Myself, if I'm the owner, I am interested in who is putting together viable trades/deals. That's obviously who I want in control of making deals, not the person rubber stamping the deal for credit.

Will Galen
05-04-2011, 03:02 PM
[QUOTE=Justin Tyme;1229841]My disapproval, NOT hate, of Bird hasn't anything to do with this. Just b/c Bird gets credit for a trade that he gave the final say doesn't mean he was the brains behind the trade nor should get credit for it.

Yes he should get credit for it. Being the brains behind a trade is easy. Read our trade forum. Basically all you have to do is match salary's. What if Denver offered us Nene for Posy, Hibbert, and Paul? Who decides if we do that deal or not. The hard part of any trade isn't putting it together, it's deciding if it's a good trade or not. Bird is the one that makes those decisions.

The guy in charge of an NBA front office always gets the credit and he always takes the blame.

Walsh didn't put the trade together in order to get a 7.5 mil TE in the NOLA trade of Peja. Should he be given credit for it just, b/c he has final say?

Certainly. The newspapers said Morway worked that TE out, but they didn't say it was his idea. It was my understanding at the time that both Walsh and Bird were on the phone talking to other NBA teams and I was glad they had someone else competent enough to do that.

Front office people talk to each other and decide who they will go after and who they are willing to swap. They don't work in a vacuum deciding which trades they will make and which they won't. They have someone to make the final decisions.

HickeyS2000
05-04-2011, 03:05 PM
As for me, I think of Bird as a Celtics Legend. I don't see him in the crowd and think to myself "there's Indiana's boy," or something like that.

Maybe it is just because of my relative youth to some of you guys, but I don't really care about his background that much. He is the President of our operations first and foremost that happens to be a Celtics great. He's from Indiana? Oh yeah, I guess that too.

If he was close enough to me and we were both not moving, I might ask him for his autograph. More because it might be worth something and to kill time. That's just my opinion of him.


As for me, I think of Bird as a Celtics Legend. I don't see him in the crowd and think to myself "there's Indiana's boy," or something like that.

As a kid, I grew up in good ole French Lick. I moved away when I was 8 and I'm now 27. When I lived there, Larry Bird played for the Celtics and all I can remember is how much everyone worshiped Bird because he was from Indiana. Has that worn off? With the Pacers faithful, maybe. With the Indiana community, no way. If you don't believe me talk to anyone from Indiana that doesn't follow the NBA or the Pacers and ask them about Larry Bird.

For instance, I was talking to a family member that does not follow the NBA in any way. She asked me how the team was doing. I said, "the owner is currently deciding if Larry Bird should stay or go as our President." She said, "Larry Bird huh? I'll go see the Pacers to watch Larry if they keep him." Regardless of the intelligence of the response, it speaks for itself.

Justin Tyme
05-04-2011, 05:16 PM
[QUOTE=Will Galen;1229937]

Yes he should get credit for it.

Being the brains behind a trade is easy. The hard part of any trade isn't putting it together, it's deciding if it's a good trade or not. QUOTE]


Horse feathers!

Horsefeathers again! The HARDEST part is getting a deal put together and what's involved in getting the deal put together. It is then presented to Bird who says yea or nay. If he likes the deal, he then presents it to ownership for IT'S approval. If I go by what you are saying then Herb Simon after ok'ing the deal should get credit for the deal.

I love in your view how someone else gets credit for the time, energy, and hard work of others.

Hicks
05-04-2011, 11:44 PM
We, the fans, have fairly sophisticated software at our disposal to put up to 4-team trades together. I promise you that each front office has something better than that.

I believe I read a few years ago that they even have software that let's them plug in a given player or group of players on the team, and the software then spits out every single possible trade in the NBA centered around them.

And I'd guess it can probably do better than that, too.

But even with just what we get (ESPN Trade Checker, RealGM), putting together deals isn't that hard.

Haywoode Workman
05-04-2011, 11:59 PM
I have absolutely zero hatred for Larry Bird as a person. I just think he's been largely over matched by smarter, and better educated front office guys.

I'd be fine with him as a coach, or scout, or in an advisor role.

I do think that if Kevin Pritchard is out there and willing to come. He's the obvious choice to move us to the next level.

i don't think you're giving bird enough credit. don't be fooled by the slow, southern drawl. that dude has brains, you can tell when he talks to the media, it's almost like he's talking down to everyone.

edit: shoulda read the thread before replying, i guess i didn't really add too much to this discussion, my bad

Taterhead
05-05-2011, 02:38 AM
I think Larry has probably met some resistance from Herb in making deals in the past and that causes him concern for the future. I can remember many instances in the last few years where the Pacers seemed close to a deal, only to have it fall apart at the end. Only Bird knows the conversations he has had with ownership. And he probably has good reason to say what he has. And he did so in a pretty respectful manner anyways, IMO.
Larry has never been a guy to throw people under the bus. He has also never been a guy who points fingers. But he has a right to know whether or not management is committed to winning before deciding if he wants the job. And putting a little pressure on Simon in making him address the issue to the fans was a smart move on his part. Telling the fans he is going to spend money to compete puts pressure on him to fallow through. Just a promise behind closed doors in a private meeting is not much of an assurance.

Will Galen
05-05-2011, 03:09 AM
I think Larry has probably met some resistance from Herb in making deals in the past and that causes him concern for the future. I can remember many instances in the last few years where the Pacers seemed close to a deal, only to have it fall apart at the end. Only Bird knows the conversations he has had with ownership. And he probably has good reason to say what he has. And he did so in a pretty respectful manner anyways, IMO.
Larry has never been a guy to throw people under the bus. He has also never been a guy who points fingers. But he has a right to know whether or not management is committed to winning before deciding if he wants the job. And putting a little pressure on Simon in making him address the issue to the fans was a smart move on his part. Telling the fans he is going to spend money to compete puts pressure on him to fallow through. Just a promise behind closed doors in a private meeting is not much of an assurance.

I disagree with the bolded part. I think the Simons have pretty much signed off on any trades (Walsh and now Bird) want to make. I have no doubt that they have asked questions though. But the Simons have always let there basketball people make the basketball decisions.

The only time I remember the Simons getting involved was when we were trying to trade for Tracy McGrady.

Cactus Jax
05-05-2011, 03:56 AM
Yeah you can't tell me that they would have signed off on the Dunleavy/Murphy trade if all they cared about was money. They just would have paid Jack off and kept Al.

Granville
05-05-2011, 06:37 AM
I hope we don't spend much this offseason.

Seriously, can anyone blame Simon if he's not willing spend more? I'll roleplay for a minute.

Simon: "Let me get this straight...I can save $20+M AND field the same team that could have beaten the best team basketball with a little more experience?"

Hell yes. I wouldn't spend if I were Simon.

This team is more than "a little more experience" away from being a contender.

Constellations
05-05-2011, 06:41 AM
This team is more than "a little more experience" away from being a contender.

Love your avatar :)

BillS
05-05-2011, 10:27 AM
This team is more than "a little more experience" away from being a contender.

That's not the question. The question is whether "spend lots of money this year" improves the team any more than "a little more experience" and then re-evaluating with the 2012 FA class.

Justin Tyme
05-05-2011, 11:30 AM
We, the fans, have fairly sophisticated software at our disposal to put up to 4-team trades together. I promise you that each front office has something better than that.

I believe I read a few years ago that they even have software that let's them plug in a given player or group of players on the team, and the software then spits out every single possible trade in the NBA centered around them.

And I'd guess it can probably do better than that, too.

But even with just what we get (ESPN Trade Checker, RealGM), putting together deals isn't that hard.


I guess it depends on your definition of what constitutes putting a deal together. If all you are doing is putting a trade scenario together with a computer, then a 12 year old can. I'm talking about someone who puts the deal together and goes to the other team/teams and sells the trade, to them. That takes time, effort, and hard work. Selling a deal you want, to someone, isn't easy work. It takes time, effort, and hard work to get all the little details worked out and the t's crossed and the i's dotted. You have to show and sell them on how it will benefit their team to do deal you have proposed. Sometimes the negoiating makes the deal endup being less or even more than what was originally proposed.

Try selling heavy equipment worth hundreds of thousands to million plus dollars to construction companies. You don't walk in, sit down, and write up an order. You have to SELL them on the idea that it's something they need to help make their business better. That it's a benefit to them that will help them in the present and future. The benefit to having the new equipment in their business is worth the money being spent. That takes time, effort, and hard work! The same applies to trying to make a trade/deal in the NBA. Some trades takes months b4 they come together, and some trades never come to fruitition as seen in the last 2 trade deadlines. This is why I feel that the person who put the deal together and did the footwork thru time, effort, and persistant hard work should get the credit, and not the person who stroked the pen on the deal. If the penstroker was the deal maker by all means give them the credit, if not, then give credit to who did bring about the trade.

Granville
05-05-2011, 12:14 PM
That's not the question. The question is whether "spend lots of money this year" improves the team any more than "a little more experience" and then re-evaluating with the 2012 FA class.


I was under the impression from imawhat's scenario that he thought since we played the Bulls close that all we needed was a little more experience and that Simon should save his money. That's what I was referring to. Perhaps I misunderstood the point. I do not necessarily think we should spend all of the available money this summer.

aaronb
05-05-2011, 01:44 PM
I as seen in the last 2 trade deadlines.


It's actually been 3 consecutive trade deadlines

2009- Foster to Denver for 1st round pick and Tinsley to Orlando

2010- Rush and TJ Ford for Henderson and Augustin

2011- Rush and McBob for OJ Mayo

Will Galen
05-05-2011, 01:45 PM
Try selling heavy equipment worth hundreds of thousands to million plus dollars to construction companies. You don't walk in, sit down, and write up an order. You have to SELL them on the idea that it's something they need to help make their business better.


Your scenario makes sense in the business world. But it's not the same thing. For it to be the same thing heavy equipment companies would be trying to sell their heavy equipment to other heavy equipment makers that are in turn trying to sell them their heavy equipment.

In the NBA you are talking to someone in the same business you are in, people who do the exact same job. Your dealing with people who are just as astute as you are on the subject. You are not going to sell them anything, the deal is what will sell them, or the situation they are in, or a particular need they have. You will not sell them on the idea it's something they need. They know their needs.

It's seems to me that your objective is to discredit Bird. You're wanting to say it's not Bird making those deals. However, you read the newspapers, you read the Internet, who gets credit for trades made in sports? It's always whoever is in charge isn't it?

Bball
05-05-2011, 02:02 PM
Your scenario makes sense in the business world. But it's not the same thing. For it to be the same thing heavy equipment companies would be trying to sell their heavy equipment to other heavy equipment makers that are in turn trying to sell them their heavy equipment.

In the NBA you are talking to someone in the same business you are in, people who do the exact same job. Your dealing with people who are just as astute as you are on the subject. You are not going to sell them anything, the deal is what will sell them, or the situation they are in, or a particular need they have. You will not sell them on the idea it's something they need. They know their needs.


They might know their needs but that doesn't mean you can't point out some potential upside to a particular deal, especially if it's a multi-team deal and you know of some potential suitors. You can point out that team X has had interest in a player but didn't have the pieces to make it work for you... but maybe with this third team involved it opens new possibilities.

Probably more importantly, teams knowing their own needs is one thing, part of the process is a GM knowing the other teams needs as well. Well enough to make offers that they consider and possibly bite on.

So it's not exactly selling heavy equipment but it's not as dissimilar as you make it sound as far as deal-making goes.

rwill784
05-05-2011, 02:09 PM
That's not the question. The question is whether "spend lots of money this year" improves the team any more than "a little more experience" and then re-evaluating with the 2012 FA class.

I understand you, the only thing that makes me kinda skeptical of this FA class is that Nene is the best PF, which isn't that great. I say we aquire Mayo for Rush/McBob and cash, and wait til next year and make a run at Kevin Love. We know Howard probably wants to be in the limelight so he's not a option Dwill isn't at a position of need, and neither is paul. We need to wait for Love and that way we can see what we have in Tyler/george. But we really need a gunner off the bench, as well as a vet backup point to show DC some tricks.

vnzla81
05-05-2011, 02:33 PM
It's actually been 3 consecutive trade deadlines

2009- Foster to Denver for 1st round pick and Tinsley to Orlando

2010- Rush and TJ Ford for Henderson and Augustin

2011- Rush and McBob for OJ Mayo

There was that other trade with Tinsley going to Orlando for JJ Redick and somebody else, but Houston decided to send them Rafer A instead.

Taterhead
05-05-2011, 04:47 PM
I disagree with the bolded part. I think the Simons have pretty much signed off on any trades (Walsh and now Bird) want to make. I have no doubt that they have asked questions though. But the Simons have always let there basketball people make the basketball decisions.

The only time I remember the Simons getting involved was when we were trying to trade for Tracy McGrady.

I don't know anything for sure. But it doesn't make any sense that Bird is questioning Simons willingness to spend money unless he has a reason. I actually agree with the bulk of your post. Simon has never given ME any indication he is reluctant to spend what so ever. But Larry has talked with him about it many times over the years and he seems worried.

So doesn't that say something to you about the conversations they have had previously? Or do you feel Larry is acting out of character and concerned for absolutely no reason?

Justin Tyme
05-05-2011, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=aaronb;1230377]


2010- Rush and TJ Ford for Henderson and Augustin /QUOTE]


You left out Nazr M. who was needed to make salaries work.

I wanted that deal as it gave the Pacers a b/u big in Nazr, a PG in Augustin, and a nice young wing in Henderson. The Pacers could unload Ford with his 8.5 Mil contract who had no future with the Pacers, and Mr. Inconsistantcy who has never been able to get his game together.

aaronb
05-05-2011, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE=aaronb;1230377]


2010- Rush and TJ Ford for Henderson and Augustin /QUOTE]


You left out Nazr M. who was needed to make salaries work.

I wanted that deal as it gave the Pacers a b/u big in Nazr, a PG in Augustin, and a nice young wing in Henderson. The Pacers could unload Ford with his 8.5 Mil contract who had no future with the Pacers, and Mr. Inconsistantcy who has never been able to get his game together.



And those are exactly the kinds of deals we should have been making all along over the past 5 years. Instead we got comments like:

"Jeff Foster is a big part of what we are doing over here"

What we were doing is winning 36,36,32 and 37 games. Trade the vet, pick up a prospect and hope they pan out. If they don't then use the roster spot for another developmental prospect. That is how well run teams rebuild.

Unfortunately with Larry its all about the maximum amount of wins today. And Jeff Foster help you win an extra game today that the Nuggets 2009 1st round pick was going to.

Justin Tyme
05-05-2011, 05:31 PM
[QUOTE=Will Galen;1230378]


It's seems to me that your objective is to discredit Bird. /QUOTE]


You are a broken record spinning I'm a hater of Bird. Once AGAIN I'm not a fan of Bird the FO guy, not a Bird hater. I have given Bird credit numerous times thru out his tenure as I've pointed out his blunders too. SHOW where I have posted since the Bird/Simon threads that I feel Bird should be replaced by Simon. YOU CAN'T! If I was a Bird hater, then when better to do it than now? I'm not even opposed to Bird signing an extension. :eek: Do I feel there are better GM's out there than Bird. You are dadgum right I do!!! Would I be upset if Bird left on his own accord or was asked to leave by ownership? Not in the least. I can see him staying as not a negative. I just hope like he11 he has learned from his blunders if he stays. If not, I'll be all over him like stink on ****.