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View Full Version : Vogel - Bird live presser 110428



able
04-27-2011, 06:27 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/vogel_bird_live_110428.html

apparently 10 am Thursday April 28th 2011 on pacers.com

pacer4ever
04-27-2011, 06:33 PM
I assume they will have it on Pacers.com after wards. So people who couldnt watch it live can see it?

Sookie
04-27-2011, 06:34 PM
Wait..both of them together...maybe Vogel's getting a job!

pacer4ever
04-27-2011, 06:35 PM
Wait..both of them together...maybe Vogel's getting a job!

it says they are reviewing the season lol

yoadknux
04-27-2011, 06:35 PM
Think they gonna announce something, Like "Vogel is the head coach for next season" or something related to Bird's future?

BringJackBack
04-27-2011, 06:45 PM
I've gotten to the point that If Vogel isn't the coach next year I'd be pretty pissed off for a very long time. And no one would hear the end of it.

It's ironic how it used to be 'Anyone but JOB,' and now it's pretty much, 'No one but Vogel'.

pacer4ever
04-27-2011, 06:50 PM
I think they will give Vogel another year due to the lockout wanting to save money.

Anthem
04-27-2011, 07:03 PM
They'll probably say "We'll make any contract decisions (for both Larry and Vogel) after the labor disputes are resolved. Don't want to lock into a contract if there's not going to be a season."

pacer4ever
04-27-2011, 07:12 PM
They'll probably say "We'll make any contract decisions (for both Larry and Vogel) after the labor disputes are resolved. Don't want to lock into a contract if there's not going to be a season."

Bird has to make a decsion because there is a little thing called the draft that is gonna happen reguardless.

Granville
04-27-2011, 07:15 PM
I've gotten to the point that If Vogel isn't the coach next year I'd be pretty pissed off for a very long time. And no one would hear the end of it.

It's ironic how it used to be 'Anyone but JOB,' and now it's pretty much, 'No one but Vogel'.

Not me. I appreciate how many people are feeling about Vogel and certainly understand why he has won you over. But I'll be ticked if they don't do their due diligence on guys like Sloan and Adelman.

I think Vogel has earned the job over any of the "hot assistants" out there, and he may end up as the best guy for the job, but I hope TPTB don't just give him the job based on the fact that the team played hard and better and that he made us all feel better about being Pacers fans.

Flibertygibits
04-27-2011, 07:21 PM
Bird has to make a decsion because there is a little thing called the draft that is gonna happen reguardless.

http://twitter.com/MikeWellsNBA

Bird is expected to work through the draft even if he doesn't decide to return next season. about 2 hours ago via web

It came off Twitter so take it for what it's worth.

Kuq_e_Zi91
04-27-2011, 07:23 PM
It's too early to make a decision regarding the head coaching position.

Have they had time to do player interviews at the end of the season yet? I hope they didn't do them last night or this morning. The players are probably still emotional over the loss.

Bird should wait to at least consider other options. It's the prudent thing to do. We all like Vogel for the job right now, but you have to keep an open mind and evaluate all of your options. It's like running into the grocery store knowing what you want, and being so blind that you run right past a good deal on a similar product.

I hope they mention what kind of player they're looking to add this summer, and without mentioning Mayo specifically because I think that's against the rules, if they will "revisit some deadline deals." And if they say they're looking at some of the best players with a specific skillset, like shooting for example, they better not give us a Travis Diener or Kareem Rush.

pacers_heath
04-27-2011, 07:43 PM
vogel did a fine job and all but honestly i think a golden retreiver as head coach after JOB would seem like an upgrade

edit: i'm going to go ahead and copyright that idea for a movie

QuickRelease
04-27-2011, 08:07 PM
I hope TPTB don't just give him the job based on the fact that the team played hard and better and that he made us all feel better about being Pacers fans.Although, that's not a bad thing to bring up in a job interview.

QuickRelease
04-27-2011, 08:09 PM
vogel did a fine job and all but honestly i think a golden retreiver as head coach after JOB would seem like an upgrade

edit: i'm going to go ahead and copyright that idea for a movieInitially. And I credit the spurt after the change to that. But hitting that 6 game skid, and recovering from that, I think goes deeper than just a carryover from JOB getting canned.

pwee31
04-27-2011, 08:14 PM
It's too early to make a decision regarding the head coaching position.

Have they had time to do player interviews at the end of the season yet? I hope they didn't do them last night or this morning. The players are probably still emotional over the loss.

Bird should wait to at least consider other options. It's the prudent thing to do. We all like Vogel for the job right now, but you have to keep an open mind and evaluate all of your options. It's like running into the grocery store knowing what you want, and being so blind that you run right past a good deal on a similar product.

I hope they mention what kind of player they're looking to add this summer, and without mentioning Mayo specifically because I think that's against the rules, if they will "revisit some deadline deals." And if they say they're looking at some of the best players with a specific skillset, like shooting for example, they better not give us a Travis Diener or Kareem Rush.

Players are headed back home, and so I'm assuming they've had closing interviews.

Probably talked about plans moving forward and what they would like players to improve on.

I just expect the press conference to summarize the season, pump up how great the playoffs were the this city and the team, discuss cap space, and how they're going to use this off-season to build and try to improve this basketball team.

At the end, you commend Vogel on a job well done getting this team to the playoffs, and explain how he'll get the 1st interview

MyFavMartin
04-27-2011, 08:15 PM
At the least I expect that they'll say they'll meet with the players as they always do at the end of the season and then make decisions from there.

It would be nice to hear that Larry's staying on as rumor has it that it is up to him. Else, he might indicate that he'll help pick the next Larry.

Justin Tyme
04-27-2011, 08:55 PM
http://twitter.com/MikeWellsNBA

Bird is expected to work through the draft even if he doesn't decide to return next season. about 2 hours ago via web

It came off Twitter so take it for what it's worth.


If Bird isn't coming back, then I want someone else in charge of the draft, preferably Bird's successor. Samething on doing any trades b4 the CBA expires. No reason to choose or trade for players a new FO wouldn't want.

Ozwalt72
04-27-2011, 09:05 PM
If Bird isn't coming back, then I want someone else in charge of the draft, preferably Bird's successor. Samething on doing any trades b4 the CBA expires. No reason to choose or trade for players a new FO wouldn't want.

Yeah, think it'd limit our options a lot.

Unclebuck
04-27-2011, 10:20 PM
They'll probably say "We'll make any contract decisions (for both Larry and Vogel) after the labor disputes are resolved. Don't want to lock into a contract if there's not going to be a season."


That would be a really stupid way to handle it. You cannot wait until after the lockout is resolved, the season might start about 2 or 3 weeks after that.

Kaufman
04-27-2011, 10:27 PM
wow. to me this is great news. you don't hold a news conference unless there is news to announce.

1) if larry is going to resign, he does a solo presser
2) if larry is going to part ways with vogel (unlikely), he does that in a solo presser
3) if larry is unsure of things with regard to him or frank, he has no presser
4) if larry is going to sign vogel for some extension, he has a joint presser
5) if larry is in a position to have a joint presser, then it means he stays
6) larry doesn't keep vogel on if he's not staying
7) thats it really.

Kaufman
04-27-2011, 10:29 PM
also, if larry was gonna leave, he would have told the players today. he often mentions how he "cares" about the players at a personal level, and I believe he does. if he cares about them, he would have said goodbye to them today. i think via tweets, that would have leaked.

Unclebuck
04-27-2011, 10:31 PM
I agree, I think this means for sure Bird and Vogel are coming back.

Kaufman
04-27-2011, 10:40 PM
tea leaves ub, tea leaves

owl
04-27-2011, 10:41 PM
Strike while the iron is hot,in regards to season tickets, etc... by annoucing Bird and Vogel are coming back.

Hicks
04-27-2011, 11:33 PM
I mean, it could be for announcing who is coming back, but I think Larry usually has one of these after the season is over just to give the media his thoughts heading into the offseason.

The only thing that makes this different is that Frank will be there with him, which is curious.

Will Galen
04-27-2011, 11:43 PM
wow. to me this is great news. you don't hold a news conference unless there is news to announce.

1) if larry is going to resign, he does a solo presser
2) if larry is going to part ways with vogel (unlikely), he does that in a solo presser
3) if larry is unsure of things with regard to him or frank, he has no presser
4) if larry is going to sign vogel for some extension, he has a joint presser
5) if larry is in a position to have a joint presser, then it means he stays
6) larry doesn't keep vogel on if he's not staying
7) thats it really.

They talk to the players the day after the season ends. Then Larry has an end of season press conference. I think the coach sits in sometimes. I hope it's more too, but that could be all it is.

docpaul
04-27-2011, 11:57 PM
I continue to think it's a significant business mistake to outright hire Vogel unless:

1) he already has other offers lined up that force our early hand in making a decision
2) they've already done some behind the scenes polling and there aren't good alternative options

From what we know, removing the interim tag at this point in time strikes me as more an emotional and/or PR related decision. You always want to create options and comparators in circumstances like this.

Bringing in Adelman-like people merely allows Vogel to be compared effectively against his peer group. If Phil Jackson woke up a couple of weeks after his retirement this year, and decided he wanted one more round of coaching, wouldn't it be nice to have the space to allow for these kind of options? (yes, the example I gave is generally ridiculous)

I loved Vogel across the board this year, but business is business. Am I missing something here? Interviewing others doesn't strike me as insulting or divergent from the guidance that Bird consistently has given since the Vogel move was made.

I want the best coach for this team. I don't want to presume outright that this is Vogel. If he's as good as we all think he is, then he can easily stand up to this level of scrutiny.

Eleazar
04-28-2011, 12:03 AM
I continue to think it's a significant business mistake to outright hire Vogel unless:

1) he already has other offers lined up that force our early hand in making a decision
2) they've already done some behind the scenes polling and there aren't good alternative options

From what we know, removing the interim tag at this point in time strikes me as more an emotional and/or PR related decision. You always want to create options and comparators in circumstances like this.

Bringing in Adelman-like people merely allows Vogel to be compared effectively against his peer group. If Phil Jackson woke up a couple of weeks after his retirement this year, and decided he wanted one more round of coaching, wouldn't it be nice to have the space to allow for these kind of options? (yes, the example I gave is generally ridiculous)

I loved Vogel across the board this year, but business is business. Am I missing something here? Interviewing others doesn't strike me as insulting or divergent from the guidance that Bird consistently has given since the Vogel move was made.

I want the best coach for this team. I don't want to presume outright that this is Vogel. If he's as good as we all think he is, then he can easily stand up to this level of scrutiny.

It is a business, but it is also a sport. The first step in being a great coach is getting your players to believe in you, and the players believe in Vogel. I don't think I have ever seen an NBA coach get his players to believe in him more than Vogel has.


I understand that Bird does this every year, but I can't help but think unless they are planning on bringing back Vogel Vogel wouldn't be part of it.

Kaufman
04-28-2011, 12:39 AM
hicks, will,

i know i agree with you - but this year things are different. this year neither larry nor vogel have a contract for next season. while their contracts may not end tomorrow, still its odd.

also - conferences usually are to state the future. not to talk about the past - usually. if they aren't a part of the future, then its not appropriate for them to comment on it. with their futures looming, it will be the pink elephant in the room.

good thoughts from both of you - but i think this is too obvious.


They talk to the players the day after the season ends. Then Larry has an end of season press conference. I think the coach sits in sometimes. I hope it's more too, but that could be all it is.

Bball
04-28-2011, 02:31 AM
hicks, will,

i know i agree with you - but this year things are different. this year neither larry nor vogel have a contract for next season. while their contracts may not end tomorrow, still its odd.

also - conferences usually are to state the future. not to talk about the past - usually. if they aren't a part of the future, then its not appropriate for them to comment on it. with their futures looming, it will be the pink elephant in the room.

good thoughts from both of you - but i think this is too obvious.

Good thought but let me muddy the water.... There's another possibility (which makes you both right)....
They talk about the season past and then explain the process going forward such as- Bird will talk about a window of time he wants to make a decision on his future here. And... or.... They'll talk about Vogel getting the first interview for the job and when that will be and that they do plan to interview others as well. They might talk about how the CBA negotiations will affect this process and maybe explain until that is decided nothing in the front office will be decided.

IOW... Besides info about the past season it could be a fairly bland presser just kind of explaining the process here on out and a window of time that certain decisions can be expected... thus making sure nobody is sitting on the edge of their seat expecting an imminent decision on Bird or the coaching situation.

Will Galen
04-28-2011, 06:58 AM
... Besides info about the past season it could be a fairly bland presser just kind of explaining the process here on out and a window of time that certain decisions can be expected.

As pacer4ever commented, and as the link at pacers.com explains, Bird and Vogel are going to review the season. Then what BBall says above will take place.

I don't think Bird has sat down with Simon yet like he said he was going to do at the end of the season. That's when he indicated things will be decided.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think Bird setting up all the basketball related contracts to end at the same time is significant. I also think him saying he's had more fun in the last two months than in the last six years is significant. I think he will come back if he gets a free hand in choosing which contracts to renew. If he comes back I think Vogel will be the coach.

Phree Refill
04-28-2011, 06:58 AM
Its pretty obvious to me that Bird is holding this presser to announce he's stepping down as GM and Vogel will take his spot. And oh, by the way, say hello to your new head coach, Mr. WALTER MCCARTY!!!!!!!

immortality
04-28-2011, 07:04 AM
Its pretty obvious to me that Bird is holding this presser to announce he's stepping down as GM and Vogel will take his spot. And oh, by the way, say hello to your new head coach, Mr. WALTER MCCARTY!!!!!!!

I actually laughed out loud. Well done.

croz24
04-28-2011, 07:55 AM
mike davis "coached" iu to a 1st round ncaa exit when he was interim head coach in 2001. the following year, he "coached" iu to the title game. does that mean mike davis was a good coach? two years later, iu suffers its first losing season in 35+ years. sometimes you have to look beyond wins and losses when heavily scrutinized head coaches are replaced...

Will Galen
04-28-2011, 08:10 AM
mike davis "coached" iu to a 1st round ncaa exit when he was interim head coach in 2001. the following year, he "coached" iu to the title game. does that mean mike davis was a good coach? two years later, iu suffers its first losing season in 35+ years. sometimes you have to look beyond wins and losses when heavily scrutinized head coaches are replaced...

I don't follow college basketball anymore. However just from reading what you wrote, it could be Davis is a good coach but not a good recruiter.

As for Vogel, I find it interesting what Bob Kravitz reported. "I've been struck by how nobody on this team, on or off the record, has said, "Absolutely, positively, Frank should get the job." The furthest anybody will go is, "Yes, he's done a very good job."

Whatever Bird does in regard to a coach will be fine with me.

BRushWithDeath
04-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Sounds like a pretty standard season review to me. I don't expect any major announcement will be made today.

Kegboy
04-28-2011, 09:45 AM
Pacers President of Basketball Operations Larry Bird and Pacers Interim Head Coach Frank Vogel will discuss the 2010-11 season live on Pacers.com Today, April 28. Coach Vogel will begin at 10:00 a.m. ET and Larry Bird will be available starting at 10:30 a.m.

They're going separately, which I would say pretty definitively means no announcements, just a standard presser.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 09:47 AM
I hope to get Larry calling Lance a pain in the *** on video.

pacer4ever
04-28-2011, 09:54 AM
I don't follow college basketball anymore. However just from reading what you wrote, it could be Davis is a good coach but not a good recruiter.

As for Vogel, I find it interesting what Bob Kravitz reported. "I've been struck by how nobody on this team, on or off the record, has said, "Absolutely, positively, Frank should get the job." The furthest anybody will go is, "Yes, he's done a very good job."

Whatever Bird does in regard to a coach will be fine with me.

Davis is actually a good recruiter he gets good players at UAB lol

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:02 AM
They really need a new backdrop for these things. That thing looks so dingy and cheap.

Coach Frank just sat down.

pacer4ever
04-28-2011, 10:04 AM
They really need a new backdrop for these things. That thing looks so dingy and cheap.

Coach Frank just sat down.

i guess mine doesnt work ****ty school pcs

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 10:04 AM
This Vogel's last public chance to show why he deserves the job. Needs to have a strong conference.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:05 AM
Hasn't had any kind of interview regarding next year.

He's confident in his abilities. News flash there.

Kuq_e_Zi91
04-28-2011, 10:07 AM
Love his bit about staying hungry this summer. Loved his message to the players. Now we know why Collison couldn't wait to get back in the gym. He really took that message to heart.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:09 AM
OK Coach, I know your schtick is incessant positivity. But c'mon about Danny's D.

yoadknux
04-28-2011, 10:09 AM
Coach Vogel: "This organisation needs Larry bird more than anything else and I hope he stays". "Danny improved his defense".

kielbeze
04-28-2011, 10:10 AM
Keep me up to date guys I am at work and it won't let me watch!

yoadknux
04-28-2011, 10:12 AM
Vogel also said he would love to stay, said community embraced him

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:13 AM
Shout out to West Clay!

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Hungry Hungry Hibbert needs to get hungrier. Didn't wan to talk specifics of what Roy needs to work on. "He'll be an All Star someday."

Seems to have a mancrush on Larry, for obvious reasons.

It's a wrap for Coach Frank. Wants to be back, would love to be back. Nothing big, really just general Vogel Talk and smiles.

The reporter crosstalk in these always interests me far too much.

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 10:17 AM
seriously they could do alot better with the lighting in that room. Its always looks so dim. Even in the playoffs it looked like the room was way darker than the press room in Chicago.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Be pretty awesome if they had Slick mosey out just to shoot the bull to fill the 15 mins between Coach Frank and Bird.

MagicRat
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Bird at 10:30....

Kuq_e_Zi91
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
My favorite parts were when he told the guys that rarely does their position in this league stay the same. If they're not getting better, they're getting worse. If they think no one is working harder than them, they're wrong. Just because they made a big step this postseason, doesn't mean it's a given that they're going to make that next step. It's important to stay hungry, and keep improving.

Also, when he talked about what he would have done differently he put the focus on himself. He said I look at myself first. I critique myself more than the players. Polar opposite from the O'Brien days.

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 10:19 AM
Danny did improve his defense I don't think that's an overstatement.

Vogel just seems like a good guy, his kids go to the same elementary school as my sisters.

mattie
04-28-2011, 10:25 AM
Yeah the criticism of Danny's defense this year I think was entirely unwarranted... There were a few games this season when everything was falling apart Danny definitely didn't play D, but I know we can count on Danny to play good defense when/if/hopefully we ever make a championship run. He proved it in this playoffs this year...

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:25 AM
Hey guys, Jamaal Tinsley no longer gets checks signed by Herb Simon.

pacer4ever
04-28-2011, 10:26 AM
Hey guys, Jamaal Tinsley no longer gets checks signed by Herb Simon.

that really doesnt affect me

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Bird's in the hot seat.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:30 AM
that really doesnt affect me
Yes it does. You're a Pacers fan and it's another 5.5 million of capspace.

But anyway...

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:31 AM
Frank'll have the first and last interview.

There's a few guys Larry wants to talk to.

Wants a quick decision.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:34 AM
Sounds like Larry's all for coming back unless Simon doesn't want him. So he's back.

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Bird says he sat down and talked to every player, including about "issues" from this past season. I'm hoping that's about Stephenson and/or Granger. I want someone to address Lance directly, though.

Ozwalt72
04-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Sounds like Larry's all for coming back unless Simon doesn't want him. So he's back.

Sounds like he's back if Simon wants to spend the money (FA and trades).

yoadknux
04-28-2011, 10:38 AM
Larry said we did not have a positive lockeroom, some players need to grow up, and that it cost us some games

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:38 AM
Addressed "not having a positive locker room." Said they understood what he said, "it'll never happen again."

If it does happen again with me here, you won't be.

There's some guys that need to grow up and be professionals.

Pretty thinly veiled Lance references.

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Larry said we did not have a positive lockeroom, some players need to grow up, and that it cost us some games

Also, he said, "They said it won't happen ever again. And if it does happen [again], and I'm here, you won't be here."

Despite his fandom of Lance, he's willing to send him packing if he doesn't get his **** together.

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Why are we even keeeping Lance Stephenson around? I mean seriously, why risk it?

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Said of players needing to get stronger; Lance, Danny, Jeff not of those players.

Ozwalt72
04-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Someone needs to ask about Stanko.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:41 AM
Wells: about the locker room issues...

Bird, stonefaced: yeah you know Mike, you were in there startin em

wow, going right at Lance now by name

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 10:41 AM
Bird "joking" that locker room problems were Mike Wells' fault. Also made some very big references to Wells being related to the Lance issues.

Also, Bird is WAYYY big on Lance.

Ozwalt72
04-28-2011, 10:41 AM
DAMN YOU LARRY FOR GETTING ME EXCITED ABOUT LANCE AGAIN!!!

DGPR
04-28-2011, 10:41 AM
Larry said Mike Wells was stirring up trouble in the locker room and everybody laughed except for Larry........

yoadknux
04-28-2011, 10:42 AM
Bird said we have no leader. Lance is immature, but is one hell of a basketball player that can win games for us. And that some vets caused problems as well.

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 10:43 AM
Larry said Mike Wells was stirring up trouble in the locker room and everybody laughed except for Larry........

Enforces the belief that Mike had some issues against Lance. Not surprising.

Ozwalt72
04-28-2011, 10:43 AM
Fun presser, actually.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:43 AM
"one guy pulled outta the draft we were definitely gonna take"

hmm...

Larry doesn't seem to think much of Wells. Seemed a lot more personal than the usual media jibes he throws.

mattie
04-28-2011, 10:43 AM
Larry said Mike Wells was stirring up trouble in the locker room and everybody laughed except for Larry........

Yeah. That was a little serious. As in I'm not sure he was kidding at all. Jesus lol

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 10:44 AM
Mike Wells stirrin' up locker room shenanigans.

bellisimo
04-28-2011, 10:44 AM
Bird really dislikes Wells the way he speaks to him and answers his questions

Speed
04-28-2011, 10:44 AM
I am all for Bird, I hope he stays. I think he's decisive and straight forward.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 10:45 AM
Nothing new. Just an update on where the team stands.

Still a good presser. I liked what Vogel and Bird both said.

BobbyMac
04-28-2011, 10:45 AM
Larry said Mike Wells was stirring up trouble in the locker room and everybody laughed except for Larry........

Yeah, nervous laughter, Wells is a problem.

bellisimo
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
if Wells is sabotaging our team for a press scoop...then he should be fired

Trophy
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
I like Wells for his inside scoops, but there's a few situations he should avoid stirring up.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
My guess on the kid that pulled out they wanted to take is Thomas Robinson from Kansas.

mattie
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
Weird, I guess I am always oblivious, but I've never had a problem with Mike Wells. Is this something we don't see? Or has it been apparent and I just haven't been aware?

Day-V
04-28-2011, 10:50 AM
"C'mon Mike, you're better than that."

RWB
04-28-2011, 10:51 AM
Bird has a very dry sense of humor. I don't think he has this hate for Wells at all. Ask former players and they all say he was a smart@ss to them too. Understand, not in a mean spirited way, but how you razz co-workers.

bellisimo
04-28-2011, 10:51 AM
Weird, I guess I am always oblivious, but I've never had a problem with Mike Wells. Is this something we don't see? Or has it been apparent and I just haven't been aware?

didn't the Artest meltdown happen with Mike Wells?

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 10:54 AM
Gosh I really like Larry Bird. The no leader comment is really significant in my opinion.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 10:54 AM
It seems like it's all up to Simon on Bird's future.

I think Bird would like to come back if Simon wants him back.

I like how Bird is looking to add talent. Mentioning Lance as one of the most talented guys on the team from the presser. Mentioned he still really liked OJ Mayo based on a few statements in the last few days.

In today's NBA, it's not as difficult to have to pick apart players' character since players have matured as opposed to say 5 years ago so I think Bird is more lenient on that now than he was 2-3 years ago.

bellisimo
04-28-2011, 10:55 AM
Bird definitely has that authority voice/feel to him that we lack from our team. Not easy finding a player with that attitude though

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 10:57 AM
Which raises the question, how does a team acquire a "leader?" Can a realistically obtainable guy do it? Can Danny somehow grow into it? Darren?

I really want to know, how does a guy become a leader of an NBA team?

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 10:58 AM
So it seems like the future of this team is really dependent on how Frugal the owner wants to be. Bird basically said, if Mr Simon doesn't want to spend any money, then i'm gone.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 11:00 AM
To be brash, if Mr. Simon doesn't want to spend the money he needs to be gone. You simply can't win by toeing the luxury tax line every year.

Thankfully, I think the new CBA'll fix a lot of revenue sharing problems and it'll be a lot less of a worry.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 11:01 AM
Which raises the question, how does a team acquire a "leader?" Can a realistically obtainable guy do it? Can Danny somehow grow into it? Darren?

I really want to know, how does a guy become a leader of an NBA team?

I feel like a leader doesn't always have to be a verbal one, but one who will lead by example.

One who the team can turn to to make smart plays and know what to do on the court when it's needed most.

You want to have a good person leading your team. You would like one who is pretty verbal towards the team and brings them together.

A guy like Eric Gordon can lead a team with his game alone, but he's a pretty quiet kid.

Even a guy like Tyler. He's quiet off the court, but on the court, everyone knows he's there because of his game.

vnzla81
04-28-2011, 11:01 AM
Enforces the belief that Mike had some issues against Lance. Not surprising.

I remember the time I said this and everybody was calling me crazy, Wells hates Lance and is trying to turn the fans on him, no doubt about that.

kielbeze
04-28-2011, 11:01 AM
Which raises the question, how does a team acquire a "leader?" Can a realistically obtainable guy do it? Can Danny somehow grow into it? Darren?

I really want to know, how does a guy become a leader of an NBA team?

I think in 2 ways number one you earn it. Earn the respect of your peers and coaches. Number 2 after you do that you take it. That is how all leaders are formed. You earn half of it and you take the other half nobody is going to say hey your the leader....unless you take controll and tell yourself I am the leader.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:04 AM
Yes it does. You're a Pacers fan and it's another 5.5 million of capspace.

But anyway...

That, and speaking as someone who was around for the entirety of the Tinsley era, it feels like a little exorcism just got performed on our cap space.

Kegboy
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
didn't the Artest meltdown happen with Mike Wells?

No, not even close.

Speaking of Artest though, I'm disappointed in Larry's attitude with Lance. He was here with Ron, and he saw first hand what giving him more and more rope in the name of "talent" did to this franchise.

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
I think Wells next article will be calling for Birds head for wanting stick with Lance.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
So it seems like the future of this team is really dependent on how Frugal the owner wants to be. Bird basically said, if Mr Simon doesn't want to spend any money, then i'm gone.

I don't think he meant that or was trying to make it seem like that's the case.

With all this cap space, I'm sure Simon wants us to use it and bring in talent. It's something everyone part of the organization has been looking forward to for years.

Bird still seems like his choice to be the president of the team.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
I think Larry's talking about more than a lead by example type, or a simple I'm the best player so I'm the de facto leader guy. I think he means a guy who WILL speak up and put guys in their place when need be, but also be willing to shoulder more than his share of the blame.

Put Dahntay's makeup in Danny's body and game and I think you have exactly what Larry means.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
Said of players needing to get stronger; Lance, Danny, Jeff not of those players.

Tyler too was mentioned as not needing to get stronger.

Funny thing is, I'm not sure I agree with Larry on that one.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:06 AM
DAMN YOU LARRY FOR GETTING ME EXCITED ABOUT LANCE AGAIN!!!

I really caution anyone against this. Sure, if he comes in next year and performs, enjoy it, while it lasts, but never forget that he's a bomb waiting to go off.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:09 AM
Larry said Mike Wells was stirring up trouble in the locker room and everybody laughed except for Larry........

Yeah, that was... interesting. I think Mike et al took it as a joke, but it sure seemed like Larry was (at least) half-serious because normally he'd laugh with them.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 11:11 AM
Yeah, that was... interesting. I think Mike et al took it as a joke, but it sure seemed like Larry was (at least) half-serious because normally he'd laugh with them.And he gave him the death glare. No one will convince me otherwise, Bird's extremely displeased the Star made such a story off the locker room stuff, which probably wasn't even that big a deal.

Bball
04-28-2011, 11:12 AM
No, not even close.

Speaking of Artest though, I'm disappointed in Larry's attitude with Lance. He was here with Ron, and he saw first hand what giving him more and more rope in the name of "talent" did to this franchise.

It wasn't an interview/conversation with Wells where Artest spoke out about wanting to leave the Pacers that ended up causing the Pacers to sit him down and ultimately trade him for a 1/2 season Peja rental?

I thought that was what the OP was talking about...

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 11:12 AM
If Bird was just being a smart ***/sarcastic, I would of expected a smirk, a chuckle at the end, a smile, whatever. Bird seemed pretty serious to me.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 11:13 AM
At the end he sounded like he was joking that time, but he still wasn't happy with how Wells takes situations.

Kegboy
04-28-2011, 11:15 AM
I remember the time I said this and everybody was calling me crazy, Wells hates Lance and is trying to turn the fans on him, no doubt about that.

The "blame the messenger" trend is lame. Does anybody want to go back to the days that Ron was a freaking psycho and nobody reported on it until after the damage was done?

Wells may have his biases, everyone does. But if you want the Pacers to be nothing but sunshine and ice cream just read Conrad and hope Cuban gets his way in kicking all the journalists out of the NBA.

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 11:16 AM
well if Bird was really worried about the press in the locker room. All he would have to do is make players avaiable for press conferences after the game instead of locker room access.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:18 AM
I want to get back on this stuff about Herb and how much he'll allow Bird or his successor to spend money. I know that the first thing I thought was the luxury tax, but we're leagues away from that tax right now. It almost makes me think Herb might put the president on an even tighter budget. Maybe Herb is tired of losing money and would prefer that the team's salary stay right around the cap itself.

By the way, I know the popular thing right now is to assume the league is full of **** about losing money, but I absolutely believe it's true with regards to the Indiana Pacers. We've been consistently hearing about it for years, and Bird mentioned it yet again today. I think it's true.

indygeezer
04-28-2011, 11:21 AM
They'll never make money as long as they have to pay the former St. Louis team owner for not taking him into the NBA with them.

Sparhawk
04-28-2011, 11:21 AM
Thanks guys for keeping us abreast of the presser interview.

Not sure how things will be addressed, but I do hope Bird stays. He may not make flashy trades, but he sure as hell won't make a trade that will cause us to suffer for years and years. I guess I'm ok with that. He did pull off a fine trade to get Collison.

I do hope guys work on their craft. I do hope Lance gets his act together, but I don't see how he's going to do that unless Bird has someone with Lance the entire offseason working with the kid. I want to what Lance can really do, but I'm not holding my breath either.

I think the guy that Bird was looking to draft was John Henson. I hope I'm wrong though.

Should be a decent offseason though. Pacers have room to make some moves. Do they package their pick in a trade or do they keep it? I honestly see us trading our 1st round pick. I could see us even buying a late first or early second to get a guy like Jajuan Johnson, or a guy that I'm pretty high on for a backup point spot in Darius Morris.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 11:23 AM
I want to get back on this stuff about Herb and how much he'll allow Bird or his successor to spend money. I know that the first thing I thought was the luxury tax, but we're leagues away from that tax right now. It almost makes me think Herb might put the president on an even tighter budget. Maybe Herb is tired of losing money and would prefer that the team's salary stay right around the cap itself.

By the way, I know the popular thing right now is to assume the league is full of **** about losing money, but I absolutely believe it's true with regards to the Indiana Pacers. We've been consistently hearing about it for years, and Bird mentioned it yet again today. I think it's true.

Based on what's happening in the league right now, sounds like everyone is losing money.

With the potential new salary cap, we need to use our cap space as best as we can. Doesn't need to be done this offseason, but hopefully in 2012 when we'll have even more options in the FA market.

Money needs to be spent and good talent needs to be added to make profits again. The crowds have been small and getting a winner/someone who will win a ton of games for us will put us back as playoff contenders which will draw interest. It's getting there, but still needs more.

This offseason, I'm expecting Bird to pull off a trade or 2 and maybe sign a FA to fill a role. I have no problem with this core either.

2012 is when we'll seriously go after a guy like Eric Gordon.

Kegboy
04-28-2011, 11:24 AM
It wasn't an interview/conversation with Wells where Artest spoke out about wanting to leave the Pacers that ended up causing the Pacers to sit him down and ultimately trade him for a 1/2 season Peja rental?

I thought that was what the OP was talking about...

Oops, you're right.

http://www.mixmakers.net/forums/f13/artest-demands-trade-50710.html

If only :montieth: had sat with him, the last 6 years never would have happened. :disappoin

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 11:24 AM
They'll never make money as long as they have to pay the former St. Louis team owner for not taking him into the NBA with them.

Greatest business deal of all time.

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Oops, you're right.

http://www.mixmakers.net/forums/f13/artest-demands-trade-50710.html

If only :montieth: had sat with him, the last 6 years never would have happened. :disappoin

Mike Wells has been the mole all along!

90'sNBARocked
04-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Why are we even keeeping Lance Stephenson around? I mean seriously, why risk it?

becaus eeveryone associated with the team has repeatedly said he has outstanding physical talents

Zach Randolph grew up
Monta Ellis grew up
Ron Artest was just awarded citizen of the year

People can change and we need talent desperatley now

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 11:27 AM
They'll never make money as long as they have to pay the former St. Louis team owner for not taking him into the NBA with them.I remember reading somewhere that's supposed to be addressed this summer, can't remember where for the life of me. But all 4 squads have repeatedly brought it to Stern's attention and he's got to do something about it.

I also think the new CBA is going to implement much, much more robust revenue sharing and we're not going to have to worry so much about just meeting the bottom line.

indygeezer
04-28-2011, 11:27 AM
Greatest business deal of all time.

Well someday it may work out for the Pacers but right now, not so much.

90'sNBARocked
04-28-2011, 11:28 AM
Bird said we have no leader. Lance is immature, but is one hell of a basketball player that can win games for us. And that some vets caused problems as well.

Oh wait a minute, I thought everything was Lance's fault?

/green

indygeezer
04-28-2011, 11:29 AM
I remember reading somewhere that's supposed to be addressed this summer, can't remember where for the life of me. But all 4 squads have repeatedly brought it to Stern's attention and he's got to do something about it.

I also think the new CBA is going to implement much, much more robust revenue sharing and we're not going to have to worry so much about just meeting the bottom line.

I hadn't heard this but I don't see where Stern has any power over such a contract.

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 11:31 AM
I'd like to know why it takes the Owner of the franchise several weeks to meet with Bird over his future.

MagicRat
04-28-2011, 11:32 AM
The "blame the messenger" trend is lame. Does anybody want to go back to the days that Ron was a freaking psycho and nobody reported on it until after the damage was done?

Before Wells: Eastern Conference Finalist, DPOY
With Wells: Freaking Psycho
After Wells: NBA Champion, Citizenship Award Winner

;)

RWB
04-28-2011, 11:33 AM
I'd like to know why it takes the Owner of the franchise several weeks to meet with Bird over his future.

Because it won't.....Bird threw that out there to keep people guessing. I think they'll meet this weekend.

MyFavMartin
04-28-2011, 11:34 AM
My guess on the kid that pulled out they wanted to take is Thomas Robinson from Kansas.

I'm thinking Sullinger is the obvious candidate.

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 11:35 AM
becaus eeveryone associated with the team has repeatedly said he has outstanding physical talents

Zach Randolph grew up
Monta Ellis grew up
Ron Artest was just awarded citizen of the year

People can change and we need talent desperatley now

Even while those guys were headcases they still got off the bench and played.

I can be swayed to give Lance one more year, but I really just don't see what you guys see, and I'm willing to bet I've followed him longer than anyone else as Lance was once a heavy IU lean while Sampson was there. (I started following Lance about 4.5 years ago), and even towards the end of his high school career, Lance started to really taper off.

So he's either really good and just that ****ing crazy. Or he's not that good and still pretty crazy. That's a big roll of the dice.

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 11:36 AM
I hadn't heard this but I don't see where Stern has any power over such a contract.

He doesn't, but he could agree to have the NBA share some of that burden.

You can decide for yourself how likely that is.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:38 AM
I'd like to know why it takes the Owner of the franchise several weeks to meet with Bird over his future.

Because he can? I imagine he has other things to do besides just worrying about the Pacers (not that he doesn't care tremendously about the team), it's already established that he wants Bird to stick around through the draft no matter what, and so now in his eyes things can stay in place for two months if he wants them to.

Psyren
04-28-2011, 11:38 AM
I'd like to know why it takes the Owner of the franchise several weeks to meet with Bird over his future.

Because he's doing other things...:whoknows:

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:39 AM
Because it won't.....Bird threw that out there to keep people guessing. I think they'll meet this weekend.

To keep people guessing? How do you get that from what he said, and why would he bother keeping people guessing in such a silly way?

Trader Joe
04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
Also, Herb Simon does have a day job. He runs a pretty successful real estate operation that pays for our little team here.

MyFavMartin
04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
It seems like it's all up to Simon on Bird's future.

I think Bird would like to come back if Simon wants him back.

I like how Bird is looking to add talent. Mentioning Lance as one of the most talented guys on the team from the presser. Mentioned he still really liked OJ Mayo based on a few statements in the last few days.

In today's NBA, it's not as difficult to have to pick apart players' character since players have matured as opposed to say 5 years ago so I think Bird is more lenient on that now than he was 2-3 years ago.

Watched last night's game and Mayo didn't close the game and I'm impressed by Sam Young and Tony Allen. Mayo has talent and can score, which I think is why Bird likes him, but OJ just doesn't seem to be challenged to take his game up a notch. His defense appeared average and he didn't strike me as a guy whose upside his higher than PG or would start over him right now.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Even while those guys were headcases they still got off the bench and played.

I can be swayed to give Lance one more year, but I really just don't see what you guys see, and I'm willing to bet I've followed him longer than anyone else as Lance was once a heavy IU lean while Sampson was there. (I started following Lance about 4.5 years ago), and even towards the end of his high school career, Lance started to really taper off.

So he's either really good and just that ****ing crazy. Or he's not that good and still pretty crazy. That's a big roll of the dice.

Well, Ron was drafted to a ****ty, ****ty Bulls team, so him getting time is not a surprise.

Ellis did play his rookie year (18mpg).

However, Zach Randolph only played in half of his games his rookie year in Portland, and he only averaged 5.8mpg.

All that said, I don't think Lance's playing time has much of anything to do with his talent.

He was a rookie, a second round pick, expected to be a point guard, which also meant he was a rookie second rounder playing behind three other point guards (including TWO of which who are also young and also expected to play). Then there's the part where he's a childish pain in the ***.

I think that's why he didn't play.

Kegboy
04-28-2011, 11:43 AM
I want to get back on this stuff about Herb and how much he'll allow Bird or his successor to spend money. I know that the first thing I thought was the luxury tax, but we're leagues away from that tax right now. It almost makes me think Herb might put the president on an even tighter budget. Maybe Herb is tired of losing money and would prefer that the team's salary stay right around the cap itself.

By the way, I know the popular thing right now is to assume the league is full of **** about losing money, but I absolutely believe it's true with regards to the Indiana Pacers. We've been consistently hearing about it for years, and Bird mentioned it yet again today. I think it's true.

The problem is, as Larry addressed, we don't know what the rules are going to be. My question is, how involved is Herb with league business these days? Ten years ago there was always talk that Herb was always "in the know" and one of the really active owners in league affairs. That talk disappeared after the brawl, with insinuations that his relationship with Stern was hurt by all that went down.

My point is, I'd like to think, even if he is less involved these days, that Herb has a general idea of not only the owner's proposal, but their fall back position, and what the post-CBA landscape will look like. And I think he and Larry do need to have a serious discussion of what the league's going to look like, and how Herb thinks that impacts the franchise going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if Herb has told Larry that if things don't change the franchise is in serious trouble, and Larry just wants assurances that we're not going to turn into the Kings.

RWB
04-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Maybe Larry is tired of being asked this question over and over and over. I guess maybe I'm going on a gut feeling, but I've seen too many curve balls thrown by business managers so to speak.

Edit. I guess I didn't type quick enough.... This was in response to something Hicks posted.

To keep people guessing? How do you get that from what he said, and why would he bother keeping people guessing in such a silly way?

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 11:50 AM
I think if Bird ends up leaving it will pretty much tell me that Simon has no interest in really spending any money on players to get better, and that will pretty much tell me how much interest I should have in this team going forward.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 11:58 AM
I'm expecting a Pacers ownership transition 5-10 years from now.

Finding an owner/moving the transition along swiftly is never easy.

I give Herb a lot of credit having to be the sole owner since the passing of his brother. He still wants to own this team and shows no intentions of selling it yet.

The Pacers seem to have had the issues of money for about 4-5 years now pretty much since the team has fallen and crowds have shrunk.

Before that, this was a top franchise. Record wise, this was a hot team to come out and watch consistently win and compete.

I wouldn't put the Pacers on the same level as the Sacramento Kings. The Kings have had their share of low attendance for a few years which has helped the biggest picture for them which is the status of their arena. Same went with the Sonics.

I just hope we won't turn out to be like the Hornets and have to be owned by the league. It's always better for the original owner to choose for himself who he wants succeeding his positon.

Haywoode Workman
04-28-2011, 11:59 AM
No, not even close.

Speaking of Artest though, I'm disappointed in Larry's attitude with Lance. He was here with Ron, and he saw first hand what giving him more and more rope in the name of "talent" did to this franchise.

No two situations are the same. When you start living within black and white constraints because of one situation that happened years ago, you really start limiting your possibilities.

There's also a fine line between that and learning from your mistakes, though.

aaronb
04-28-2011, 12:06 PM
I'd like to know why it takes the Owner of the franchise several weeks to meet with Bird over his future.


He probably wants to see the labor situation flesh out before making any commitments.

Front office and coaching personnel still get paid if there is a lockout. So Simon is probably going to be sure there isn't a lockout before negotiating any deals. It's not like there is a line of potential suitors for Bird or even Vogel at this point? No need to rush into making a bad decision?

RWB
04-28-2011, 12:11 PM
The draft isn't unitl June. I just can't see Simon letting Bird make that pick unless he is being brought back.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 12:15 PM
I think if Bird ends up leaving it will pretty much tell me that Simon has no interest in really spending any money on players to get better, and that will pretty much tell me how much interest I should have in this team going forward.

I do feel like this is true.

Simon has to pay someone and Bird seems like his favorite and the way he'll make money again is to use the cap space and put a good team out there. That's pretty much how it works. You're gonna need to spend money to get better which in return will earn you more money.

This is something everyone has been waiting for for a long time so I hope the cap space is used on a solid player or 2 who will put this team back to where it was before the whole rebuilding process.

Brad8888
04-28-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm expecting a Pacers ownership transition 5-10 years from now.

Finding an owner/moving the transition along swiftly is never easy.

I give Herb a lot of credit having to be the sole owner since the passing of his brother. He still wants to own this team and shows no intentions of selling it yet.

The Pacers seem to have had the issues of money for about 4-5 years now pretty much since the team has fallen and crowds have shrunk.

Before that, this was a top franchise. Record wise, this was a hot team to come out and watch consistently win and compete.

I wouldn't put the Pacers on the same level as the Sacramento Kings. The Kings have had their share of low attendance for a few years which has helped the biggest picture for them which is the status of their arena. Same went with the Sonics.

I just hope we won't turn out to be like the Hornets and have to be owned by the league. It's always better for the original owner to choose for himself who he wants succeeding his positon.

I agree with your post, but I think the transition might happen sooner than that.

Now, for a little fun!

For those not accustomed to green font, this is a

**** Sarcasm Alert ****

I think the league should take over the Pacers and merge the two rosters and buy out the players that aren't up to snuff. Then they should split the home games between Indiana and NO based on the size of the home city (Indy is much larger now BTW). That team would compete for the 'ship this next season, and it wouldn't be long before somebody coughs up the money to buy the combined franchise from the league at a profit.

**** End Sarcasm Alert ****

:D :)

Justin Tyme
04-28-2011, 12:16 PM
but never forget that he's a bomb waiting to go off.


Artest #2. Not if, but when.

Ozwalt72
04-28-2011, 12:26 PM
The draft isn't unitl June. I just can't see Simon letting Bird make that pick unless he is being brought back.

I don't think Bird makes that pick. Bird's here to August, regardless, because he's getting paid to that point. I expect him to be involved with scouting and evaluation and helping the new president transition.

That is if he isn't retained.

indygeezer
04-28-2011, 12:27 PM
He doesn't, but he could agree to have the NBA share some of that burden.

You can decide for yourself how likely that is.

Right after I sign on to play center of the Pacers.

RWB
04-28-2011, 12:28 PM
Is Stepenson really a bomb or is he a firecracker? I think the later and if he does explode on this team I'll eat crow.

indygeezer
04-28-2011, 12:36 PM
Serious question.

If it is left up to Simon, what does he have that tells him Bird should not be re-signed? LB has us back in the POs and in a very cap-friendly status. Or is that Morway's doing? Speaking of....has anyone addressed his situation?

Why did I see that LB might have to take a pay cut? If that were offered would he take it or shove it?

Justin Tyme
04-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Watched last night's game and Mayo didn't close the game and I'm impressed by Sam Young and Tony Allen. Mayo has talent and can score, which I think is why Bird likes him, but OJ just doesn't seem to be challenged to take his game up a notch. His defense appeared average and he didn't strike me as a guy whose upside his higher than PG or would start over him right now.



Tony Allen is a better player than Mayo. Hence is why Allen starts. Next year Henry will be back from an injury, and at the beginning of the season he was starting over Mayo. That says something about Mayo, and why he's available for trade.

vnzla81
04-28-2011, 12:41 PM
Tony Allen is a better player than Mayo. Hence is why Allen starts. Next year Henry will be back from an injury, and at the beginning of the season he was starting over Mayo. That says something about Mayo, and why he's available for trade.

Mayo is needed to replace Dunleavy, if he is scoring 12ppg and playing D I would call that a good deal.

Hicks
04-28-2011, 12:42 PM
Is Stepenson really a bomb or is he a firecracker? I think the later and if he does explode on this team I'll eat crow.

If he remains the 12th man, he's a firecracker. The more important he becomes to this team, the larger the explosion.

Haywoode Workman
04-28-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm thinking Sullinger is the obvious candidate.

i doubt it, sullinger wouldn't have been available to us if he entered anyway.

pacer4ever
04-28-2011, 12:44 PM
He probably wants to see the labor situation flesh out before making any commitments.

Front office and coaching personnel still get paid if there is a lockout. So Simon is probably going to be sure there isn't a lockout before negotiating any deals. It's not like there is a line of potential suitors for Bird or even Vogel at this point? No need to rush into making a bad decision?

No we still need them in place for the draft which will happen ethier way. Birds deal doesnt run out till august he said in the presser.

Justin Tyme
04-28-2011, 12:45 PM
The problem is, as Larry addressed, we don't know what the rules are going to be. My question is, how involved is Herb with league business these days? Ten years ago there was always talk that Herb was always "in the know" and one of the really active owners in league affairs. That talk disappeared after the brawl, with insinuations that his relationship with Stern was hurt by all that went down.

My point is, I'd like to think, even if he is less involved these days, that Herb has a general idea of not only the owner's proposal, but their fall back position, and what the post-CBA landscape will look like. And I think he and Larry do need to have a serious discussion of what the league's going to look like, and how Herb thinks that impacts the franchise going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if Herb has told Larry that if things don't change the franchise is in serious trouble, and Larry just wants assurances that we're not going to turn into the Kings.


Didn't Herb say he was going to be very active in the Pacers operations a couple of years ago? So is he or isn't he? I can't say from the outside I see any difference since he made that statement.

vnzla81
04-28-2011, 12:51 PM
The "blame the messenger" trend is lame. Does anybody want to go back to the days that Ron was a freaking psycho and nobody reported on it until after the damage was done?

Wells may have his biases, everyone does. But if you want the Pacers to be nothing but sunshine and ice cream just read Conrad and hope Cuban gets his way in kicking all the journalists out of the NBA.

The problem is that Wells is only talking about Lance been a cancer in the lockeroom but he doesn't say anything about Posey or DJ.
Just look at the Posey story about him arguing with Vogel, if that was Lance we could have got to read at least 3 articles of Wells telling us what kind of punk Lance is.

Sookie
04-28-2011, 12:55 PM
The problem is that Wells is only talking about Lance been a cancer in the lockeroom but he doesn't say anything about Posey or DJ.
Just look at the Posey story about him arguing with Vogel, if that was Lance we could have got to read at least 3 articles of Wells telling us what kind of punk Lance is.

Wells was talking about Dahntay from the get go. He hadn't said anything about Posey, but I think Posey was more of a "behind the scenes" cancer, like Troy might have been. Where as Dahntay and Lance have strong personalities.

Justin Tyme
04-28-2011, 01:02 PM
[QUOTE=Trophy;1226945]

I'm expecting a Pacers ownership transition 5-10 years from now./QUOTE]

I have said since the beginning of last year Simon was positioning this team to be sold in the next few years. Not 5-10 years.

CIB deal on Conseco
Great arena to play in
FO contracts up
Young core of players
Cap space to work with
Made the playoffs

All these things make the Pacers look attractive to possible buyers.

vnzla81
04-28-2011, 01:02 PM
Wells was talking about Dahntay from the get go. He hadn't said anything about Posey, but I think Posey was more of a "behind the scenes" cancer, like Troy might have been. Where as Dahntay and Lance have strong personalities.

Yeah but yesterday was the 1st time Wells talked about DJ been some kind of diva in the lockeroom and Bird not liking him, how he could keep this secret for so long?

Eleazar
04-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Didn't Herb say he was going to be very active in the Pacers operations a couple of years ago? So is he or isn't he? I can't say from the outside I see any difference since he made that statement.

I highly doubt that you will see any obvious difference. Being more active doesn't mean it is going to show up in public like Mark Cuban. As long as he has someone between him and the public (Larry Bird) you can never judge how much involvement an owner has.

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 01:04 PM
I'm thinking Sullinger is the obvious candidate.
I guess Larry coulda just been goofing and that's what he meant, but I was thinking realistic possibilities. Obviously no way we coulda drafted Sullinger. If Larry meant it the Robinson kid brings a lot of what we need to the frontcourt.

Justin Tyme
04-28-2011, 01:05 PM
The draft isn't unitl June. I just can't see Simon letting Bird make that pick unless he is being brought back.


That is a very reasonable and logical assumption.

Sookie
04-28-2011, 01:08 PM
Yeah but yesterday was the 1st time Wells talked about DJ been some kind of diva in the lockeroom and Bird not liking him, how he could keep this secret for so long?

First time I've heard him say something about Bird being upset with him, and thinking that he's not having a completely positive impact on the younger players.

The having a not always positive impact on the younger guys is the biggest thing for me. And I almost wonder what it could be. Because Dahntay is a hard worker, brings a lot of intensity and effort. So I wonder what that is.

But Wells was always saying that Dahntay had a strong personality and thinks he's always right. That's nothing new.

makaveli
04-28-2011, 01:12 PM
And he gave him the death glare. No one will convince me otherwise, Bird's extremely displeased the Star made such a story off the locker room stuff, which probably wasn't even that big a deal.

I asked Mike about it after it happened on twitter...

Me:

@makaveli1376
@MikeWellsNBA Is that Larry's normal dry sense of humor jabbing at you or does he truly dislike you?
2 hours ago

Mike Wells:

@MikeWellsNBA
@makaveli1376 dry sense of humor. been going on for years
2 hours ago

RWB
04-28-2011, 01:12 PM
But Wells was always saying that Dahntay had a strong personality and thinks he's always right. That's nothing new.

I bet Bird was having a heart attack too. He's hoping a leader would emerge and it looks as though Dahntay was trying to be that guy.

Trophy
04-28-2011, 01:19 PM
I have said since the beginning of last year Simon was positioning this team to be sold in the next few years. Not 5-10 years.

CIB deal on Conseco
Great arena to play in
FO contracts up
Young core of players
Cap space to work with
Made the playoffs

All these things make the Pacers look attractive to possible buyers.

The Simons have been great owners and Herb will find a buyer. Hopefully the transition won't take very long.

There's always a bunch of ownership transitions in the league. Some recent ones were Pollen to Leonsis in Washington, Cohan to Lacob and Guber in Golden State, and Davidson to Gores in Detroit.

What the Pacers have is going to attract a lot of interest like the things you listed, but he doesn't sound interested in putting the team up for sale at the moment.

Unclebuck
04-28-2011, 01:28 PM
OK I am watching it now. I thought Bird's endorsement of Vogel was less than 100% - I thought it was a little lukewarm.


Just a thought I had - what if Frank gets interviews with other teams

Heisenberg
04-28-2011, 01:31 PM
Just a thought I had - what if Frank gets interviews with other teams
I'd frankly be surprised

RWB
04-28-2011, 01:32 PM
I think we've heard/seen enough interviews and stories to know Bird really, really, likes a hard @ssed coach. Vogel doesn't fit that mold so yeah I would agree it seems Bird was a little lukewarm.

Sookie
04-28-2011, 01:38 PM
OK I am watching it now. I thought Bird's endorsement of Vogel was less than 100% - I thought it was a little lukewarm.


Just a thought I had - what if Frank gets interviews with other teams

Frank Vogel deserves a job as an NBA head coach. If it's not with us, we're unlucky. But I think the way our team performed put Frank Vogel in clear view for some NBA teams.

He's absolutely perfect for ours though. I thought it was pretty obvious that the guys all want him back, by the way they played.

IMO, Bird's lukewarmness probably stems from the fact that, in a way the team and Vogel showed Bird up a bit. There was a stubbornness in Bird that kept O'brien around way too long. And the team and Vogel showed Bird that he was wrong, and everyone else saying that he should fire Vogel was right.

It may seem silly. But Bird is clearly stubborn, and being shown that you were wrong about something you were so stubborn about..even if you enjoyed the success of the team and everything else...it leaves a bad taste.

Just my opinion. I like Bird, I think he's done a good job. But I think he's incredibly stubborn. (I would guess the best basketball players are.)

makaveli
04-28-2011, 01:39 PM
I think we've heard/seen enough interviews and stories to know Bird really, really, likes a hard @ssed coach. Vogel doesn't fit that mold so yeah I would agree it seems Bird was a little lukewarm.


I agree although I don't remember Larry being that hard assed type himself. Maybe because the team he had was loaded with veterans? Or maybe because as he said this team lacks a leader? Whatever the reason I hope Larry reconsiders hiring that type of coach after seeing what a coach with a more positive approach can get out of his players. Don't get me wrong...I don't want to see the inmates running the asylum but I also don't want to see an Obie where he trashes guys in the press or a Carlisle with his little folded up piece of paper calling EVERY FREAKIN PLAY. There has to be a happy middle.

rock747
04-28-2011, 01:41 PM
Bird giving Wells crap every press conference is hilarious... Bird admited locker room problems cost the team games. Interesting.

MyFavMartin
04-28-2011, 01:45 PM
i doubt it, sullinger wouldn't have been available to us if he entered anyway.


Do you think Bird was refering to someone that would have been available at #15 or just giving us something for us to grab straws at?

MyFavMartin
04-28-2011, 01:46 PM
I'd frankly be surprised

Surely don't call me frank.

MyFavMartin
04-28-2011, 01:49 PM
The draft isn't unitl June. I just can't see Simon letting Bird make that pick unless he is being brought back.

I don't see Bird getting lazy, even up to the last second.

bellisimo
04-28-2011, 02:02 PM
Oops, you're right.

http://www.mixmakers.net/forums/f13/artest-demands-trade-50710.html

If only :montieth: had sat with him, the last 6 years never would have happened. :disappoin


Oh wow...ok I just re-read that interview and never in it does Artest "Demands a Trade"

We all know Artest has issues no doubt about that. But in the end if Wells was asking questions to get answers from Artest and twist them around?

Check out the quotes from Artest:

"I still think my past haunts me here," Artest said. "I think somewhere else I'm starting fresh. I'm coming in with baggage but people already know about it and how I'm going to be. Either they're going to be for me or they're not going to trade for me. Here I think my past haunts me."

"I think they will be a better team without me."

"I think I cause a lot of problems here,"

"If the trade rumors, if there is any truth -- maybe it won't be a bad thing. They probably could win more games without me."

If I go to the West Coast, I would come back to New York after my contract is up," Artest said. "I would go to Cleveland. I wouldn't mind coming off the bench behind LeBron James. There's a lot of players I wouldn't mind coming off the bench behind. If it was a perfect world, I would be going to New York."

"Here I don't think I'm going to have a chance to maximize my opportunity for my potential," he said. "When I first got here, all I wanted to do was play defense. I never really cared about offense, but what I see is players like Kobe (Bryant), Tracy (McGrady), (Gilbert) Arenas and Jermaine (O'Neal) getting the opportunity to maximize their potential on the court and to get paid. I'm out of my character a little bit here."

"I don't think I'm going to maximize my opportunity just playing defense. I have to show I'm one of the premier players on offense on the wing. So when it's that time, there's no question what type of player I am."

---------------------------------------------------

I don't know about you guys but to me that sounds like Wells was only talking to Artest about trade rumors and then twisted his answers with his touch up to say that Artest demands a trade.

RWB
04-28-2011, 02:03 PM
It seems most places when they cut someone's throat they pay them but they put them on vacation until their time is up. That is another reason I think it's Bird's choice to come back or not.

Bball
04-28-2011, 02:03 PM
Frank Vogel deserves a job as an NBA head coach. If it's not with us, we're unlucky. But I think the way our team performed put Frank Vogel in clear view for some NBA teams.


IMO, Bird's lukewarmness probably stems from the fact that, in a way the team and Vogel showed Bird up a bit. There was a stubbornness in Bird that kept O'brien around way too long. And the team and Vogel showed Bird that he was wrong, and everyone else saying that he should fire Vogel was right.

It may seem silly. But Bird is clearly stubborn, and being shown that you were wrong about something you were so stubborn about..even if you enjoyed the success of the team and everything else...it leaves a bad taste.

Just my opinion. I like Bird, I think he's done a good job. But I think he's incredibly stubborn. (I would guess the best basketball players are.)

I think Bird has a blind spot to coaches and player relationships... something to where the more the players despise a coach the more Bird digs in his heels and thinks the players are the problem.

Someone quite some time ago pointed out the situation in Boston when the team wanted a coach gone and Bird felt the team betrayed the coach and did not go along with them.

Anyone that would stick with Jim O'Brien heading into 4 seasons gets a HUGE question mark placed on the file their resume' resides in.

In fact, giving O'Brien that 4th season when he should've never made it past the 3rd really set up the scenario that anyone was going to be in a position to do better than O'Brien. If it would've happened with Connor at least he'd have the partial season AND a resume that had some substance to it to consider. But instead, we let O'Brien populate his ranks with some thin resumes... and then when the situation festered to the point that all but a couple of people couldn't see he needed fired we had to turn the team over to someone with a thin resume'.

Lo and behold he runs with it...

And now we're faced with a quandary... Is Vogel as good as he appears even with the thin resume or is he just the guy fortunate enough to have some good players who were stuck with a terrible coach and personnel manager?

I'd say on the day O'Brien was fired (and could we see if the Governor will make that an Indiana holiday?) the decision about what to do in the off season was easy. Vogel has since made it hard.

I have no idea what to do about the coaching situation. Is Vogel really an up and coming young coach you can't let get away.... or the fortunate soul to help prove how awful of a coach O'Brien was for this team?

And if there's any question on that... can the Pacers afford to be wrong about Vogel and give him the job?

Strummer
04-28-2011, 02:16 PM
I think if Bird ends up leaving it will pretty much tell me that Simon has no interest in really spending any money on players to get better, and that will pretty much tell me how much interest I should have in this team going forward.

The Pacers have always spent money on players. They're not cheap. That's why we were up against the luxury tax. No, I don't think we'll ever be one of those teams that's $30 million over the cap, but I don't think that's necessary.

Sparhawk
04-28-2011, 02:19 PM
If there are better FAs next offseason, I hope we don't splurge this year.

Bball
04-28-2011, 02:22 PM
I don't know about you guys but to me that sounds like Wells was only talking to Artest about trade rumors and then twisted his answers with his touch up to say that Artest demands a trade.

I never really considered that possibility until recently when someone was ranting on Wells and to remain open-minded to their argument then you'd also have to reconsider the Artest interview.

BUT we're remembering that thru the prism of time...

IIRC when that story broke Artest then ran with it and did some TV interviews that hurt the team's chances of reining that in with some spin and parsing of words. In fact, Wells' article does seem to be leaving the door open for the team to repair any damage Artest might be causing with it. If Artest was demanding a trade in his interview with Wells, Wells didn't go to print with that hardline stance.

It was what Artest said on camera that sealed the deal (IIRC). It left little room for anyone to say "What he meant was..." or for Artest to say "What I meant was..."

That's how I remember it...

It is possible Wells ran with a story that he helped create, even throwing gas on a fire, just to generate a scoop.... and Artest... bat**** crazy and media whore that he was at that time had no self-censor to kick in and so he just continued to dig a hole following the article's release that he and team couldn't dig out of.

But it's just as possible Wells was doing his job and reporting on the team and whatever newsworthy came his way.

Should Wells choose his pieces based on a filter of whether something might hurt the team and/or a player(s) or should he filter it thru a more simple "this is interesting team news/this is not interesting team news" filter?

RWB
04-28-2011, 02:27 PM
I was told by Phil Wilson (Star) they print about 10% of what they (reporters) really know when it comes to behind the scenes.

BillS
04-28-2011, 02:31 PM
Here we go again.

Bird "sounded lukewarm" to Vogel leads to Vogel was showing Bird up so Bird has a bias and the only reason Vogel won't be hired is because Bird lets his stubbornness get in the way so Bird has to go.

How about something as simple as if Bird had to step in to talk to the players about the crap that was going on in the locker room, he thinks maybe Vogel is fine when everything is sunshine and lollipops but would have trouble holding a team together under adversity?

How about Bird is being asked about Vogel for the 50 millionth time and is simply trying to say the decision isn't going to be made without seeing who is out there (for the 50 millionth time)?

Somehow I get the feeling PD is building itself up to an "anti-JOB" moment if Vogel is not hired, where the forum explodes in indignation and disgust because Vogel is The Greatest Coach in the NBA and the Pacers FO is the Stupidest FO in the World if they don't simply drop everything and pay him whatever he wants to hire him. Which description of course is exaggerated and isn't what anyone suggests, but any lower degree of skill that can be given counterexamples won't be considered important.

Strummer
04-28-2011, 02:32 PM
The "blame the messenger" trend is lame. Does anybody want to go back to the days that Ron was a freaking psycho and nobody reported on it until after the damage was done?

Wells may have his biases, everyone does. But if you want the Pacers to be nothing but sunshine and ice cream just read Conrad and hope Cuban gets his way in kicking all the journalists out of the NBA.

Wells isn't a journalist, he's a typist. He doesn't have a positive relationship with the team and is mainly interested in portraying them in a bad light, from Larry all the way down to Lance.

I would love it if the Indy beat writer was a journalist who could write insightful articles about my favorite team. But that's not Wells. He's burned his bridges with the team and has no inside sources. And that has turned him into a gossip columnist.

That's not playing "blame the messenger". It's wanting a better messenger. The Pacers deserve better. The fans deserve better.

Gamble1
04-28-2011, 03:00 PM
Somehow I get the feeling PD is building itself up to an "anti-JOB" moment if Vogel is not hired, where the forum explodes in indignation and disgust because Vogel is The Greatest Coach in the NBA and the Pacers FO is the Stupidest FO in the World if they don't simply drop everything and pay him whatever he wants to hire him. Which description of course is exaggerated and isn't what anyone suggests, but any lower degree of skill that can be given counterexamples won't be considered important.
I think the board is more pro Vogel than any other head coaching candidate. Of course no other coaching candidate has lead this team to the playoffs so I can't blame people for reacting if he isn't hired. I hope its not an overreaction though because most coaching candidates will be better than when JOB was hired.

spazzxb
04-28-2011, 03:05 PM
Some are already suggesting that.


Which description of course is exaggerated and isn't what anyone suggests, but any lower degree of skill that can be given counterexamples won't be considered important.

imbtyler
04-28-2011, 03:14 PM
For the sake of pleasing an inner urge, I'm going to just assume that Larry was going to try trading up in the draft to pick up Perry Jones, but could not have done so since he decided to stay at Baylor. Maybe he already had a few trades lined up to land a high-enough pick, too.

/hopesanddreams

Sookie
04-28-2011, 03:56 PM
Here we go again.

Bird "sounded lukewarm" to Vogel leads to Vogel was showing Bird up so Bird has a bias and the only reason Vogel won't be hired is because Bird lets his stubbornness get in the way so Bird has to go.

How about something as simple as if Bird had to step in to talk to the players about the crap that was going on in the locker room, he thinks maybe Vogel is fine when everything is sunshine and lollipops but would have trouble holding a team together under adversity?

How about Bird is being asked about Vogel for the 50 millionth time and is simply trying to say the decision isn't going to be made without seeing who is out there (for the 50 millionth time)?

Somehow I get the feeling PD is building itself up to an "anti-JOB" moment if Vogel is not hired, where the forum explodes in indignation and disgust because Vogel is The Greatest Coach in the NBA and the Pacers FO is the Stupidest FO in the World if they don't simply drop everything and pay him whatever he wants to hire him. Which description of course is exaggerated and isn't what anyone suggests, but any lower degree of skill that can be given counterexamples won't be considered important.

I think it'll be unfortunate if we don't hire Vogel. Because I think he's earned the job. And I'm partial to guys that earn it. I also think it's pretty obvious the guys want him back.

My point was more about Bird. Bird has a stubborn streak and really digs his heels in.

He's done a good job for the most part, but I'm starting to see the red flags, and it all revolves around one thing. Stubbornness. I can be insanely stubborn. I know how stubborn people work. :laugh:

And yes, I think when a person is insanely stubborn about something, and they are proven wrong to such an extent that Bird was, they can be a little cold towards the truth..and can be a little slow to fully warm up to it.

docpaul
04-28-2011, 04:04 PM
Wow, this is about as candid as I remember from Bird. Watching the video is worth it, IMO, as I think a lot of people are potentially misrepresenting what he said here in this thread.

When I hear about locker room problems, what I heard was that this was going on while JOB was around, due to the player ambiguities around who was dressing. Once Vogel established a firm rotation, Bird implies that things got better.

He also was totally unabashed in his endorsement of Lance Stephenson, even after his stupid off court behavior. This is exciting, IMO, and says a lot about his take on the risk/reward ratio.

He's definitely coming back, as Simon got to get a taste of what's to come in the playoffs, and it's clear that Bird wants to continue. I wouldn't be surprised if they sign Bird to a multi-year deal.

I actually think that Bird, outside of his looseness with the English language, is a pretty damn good interviewer. You don't worry about his veracity, that's for sure... and the guy clearly is invested in the team.

Thumbs up for Bird, for me.

naptownmenace
04-28-2011, 04:19 PM
Wells isn't a journalist, he's a typist. He doesn't have a positive relationship with the team and is mainly interested in portraying them in a bad light, from Larry all the way down to Lance.

I would love it if the Indy beat writer was a journalist who could write insightful articles about my favorite team. But that's not Wells. He's burned his bridges with the team and has no inside sources. And that has turned him into a gossip columnist.

That's not playing "blame the messenger". It's wanting a better messenger. The Pacers deserve better. The fans deserve better.

I think Wells, although I don't like his game coverage, does a good job generating interesting stories about the Pacers. He's more of a sideline reporter than a journalist in the sense that he asks questions and then reports the answers to those questions. He's tends to get a lot of behind the scenes information such as when roster changes were about to be made. When there were issues with the chemistry, he reported that.

I've come to accept Mike Wells for what he is and not what he isn't.

If you want editorial articles concerning the Pacers, that's Bob Kravitz's job. Lately Bob has been doing a great job.

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 04:45 PM
Just heard Wells on JMV and apparently he called Bird back later on during the day for another question and the first thing Bird said to him was "I got you good today didn't I..."

So its all just good natured jabbing between Wells and Bird. Wells said that he would be worried if Bird didn't jab at him, whenever they speak.

spazzxb
04-28-2011, 04:50 PM
I think Wells, although I don't like his game coverage, does a good job generating interesting stories about the Pacers. He's more of a sideline reporter than a journalist in the sense that he asks questions and then reports the answers to those questions. He's tends to get a lot of behind the scenes information such as when roster changes were about to be made. When there were issues with the chemistry, he reported that.

I've come to accept Mike Wells for what he is and not what he isn't.

If you want editorial articles concerning the Pacers, that's Bob Kravitz's job. Lately Bob has been doing a great job.

Kravitz at times is almost a tabloid journalist.

The Jackson shimmy
04-28-2011, 05:14 PM
At his point, I can't decide wether I care less about anything and
everything that Mike Wells does or says or anything and everything
that Stephenson does or says.

I guess it's a tie. Both are completely irrelevant.

Merz
04-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Davis is actually a good recruiter he gets good players at UAB lol

Except he couldn't recruit the state. At Indiana, you have to recruit Indiana. Missing out on Oden because he wanted Sherron Collins instead of Conley was really bad.

Sandman21
04-28-2011, 06:07 PM
Except he couldn't recruit the state. At Indiana, you have to recruit Indiana. Missing out on Oden because he wanted Sherron Collins instead of Conley was really bad.

Not to mention Eric Gordon, McRoberts, Dominic James, and Sean May, just to name a few more around that time.

presto123
04-28-2011, 06:07 PM
I'm a huge Bird fan but in some ways I want him to go and let somebody else handle the big decisions coming up. I don't give him a pass for keeping JOB around that long when it was obvious to everyone what needed to be done. The only problem is that I want Vogel back 100%. I don't think I can have it both ways.

Kegboy
04-28-2011, 06:30 PM
I'm a huge Bird fan but in some ways I want him to go and let somebody else handle the big decisions coming up. I don't give him a pass for keeping JOB around that long when it was obvious to everyone what needed to be done. The only problem is that I want Vogel back 100%. I don't think I can have it both ways.

You might be able to if Morway took over. Not that I'm advocating that.

BillS
04-28-2011, 06:45 PM
You might be able to if Morway took over. Not that I'm advocating that.

Yeah, I dunno how much I'd like that. Morway seems to be a personnel stressor, and not in a good way.

Tom White
04-28-2011, 06:51 PM
I remember the time I said this and everybody was calling me crazy, Wells hates Lance and is trying to turn the fans on him, no doubt about that.

You really believe that? Seriously? Ah, I forgot, none of Lance's problems could possibly be his own fault, right?

90'sNBARocked
04-28-2011, 07:00 PM
You really believe that? Seriously? Ah, I forgot, none of Lance's problems could possibly be his own fault, right?

Do you believe in a persons ability to change ?

Do you believe that its possible he is , despite being 6'5 220, still a kid?

Do you think that where a person grows up has a lot to do with some of the "rough edges"?

Im not calling you out sir, but I really am curious as to your opinion on some of those things, or more specifically why Lance ( in my humble opinion) seems to bother you so much?

Just asking, not flamming

Anthem
04-28-2011, 07:03 PM
he didn't strike me as a guy whose upside his higher than PG or would start over him right now.
Even if he's not, it still might be worth picking him up. I'd be fine with a PG, Mayo, and Granger trio on the wings.

Tom White
04-28-2011, 07:15 PM
Do you believe in a persons ability to change ?

Do you believe that its possible he is , despite being 6'5 220, still a kid?

Do you think that where a person grows up has a lot to do with some of the "rough edges"?

Im not calling you out sir, but I really am curious as to your opinion on some of those things, or more specifically why Lance ( in my humble opinion) seems to bother you so much?

Just asking, not flamming

My response to vnzla81 was about his idea that Wells has it in for Lance, and that Wells is doing what he can to turn fans against Lance.

My stance is that Wells doesn't have to do a thing for the fans to turn against Lance, that Lance himself does enough to do himself in, no help needed.

90'sNBARocked
04-28-2011, 07:29 PM
My response to vnzla81 was about his idea that Wells has it in for Lance, and that Wells is doing what he can to turn fans against Lance.

My stance is that Wells doesn't have to do a thing for the fans to turn against Lance, that Lance himself does enough to do himself in, no help needed.

I agree with that as well, and my only point was I feel like Lance really bothers you and was curious to know if I was right and if so why

I appreciate different opinions

obviously I pull hard for Lance

vnzla81
04-28-2011, 09:00 PM
You really believe that? Seriously? Ah, I forgot, none of Lance's problems could possibly be his own fault, right?

Yes I am serious, is maybe my fault for listening to the radio all day long so I get to listen to every single interview Mike Wells does reason why I know how he feels, the guy doesn't like Lance and everybody knows that, I like Wells but I think he is making this issue personal since the beggining.

In contracts with Lance, DJ and Posey have done crazy things in the lockeroom(It was reported that Posey got into an argument with Vogel) but every time he talks about them he only say that the guys are just divas and doesn't make as much of a big deal as he does with Lance.

graphic-er
04-28-2011, 09:13 PM
I'm a huge Bird fan but in some ways I want him to go and let somebody else handle the big decisions coming up. I don't give him a pass for keeping JOB around that long when it was obvious to everyone what needed to be done. The only problem is that I want Vogel back 100%. I don't think I can have it both ways.

I think its a bit unfair to hold it against him so much. Alot of factors go into hiring and firing a coach. Its pretty clear Simon does not like wasting money. Based on his recent statements going in to the tax threshold is wasting money. Paying off a dead beat coach is a waste of money. You could say that we should have never picked up the 4th year on this contract but. Its clear to see that Bird's intention all along was to have everything start fresh with in the organization this summer.

SO it would have made no sense to hire a new coach last year and give them a 3 year deal. It wouldn't have been smart to let an interim coach for the entire year as well. It does not send a good message to your players. A Directionless team does not bode will for anybody.

The 3 year plan was more than just making the playoffs, its the ability to press the shiny red reset button on a miserable franchise and to be able to reshape the organization going forward to best work around the new CBA rules.

So in the end this has been a truly bang up job Bird has done. All while rebuilding the core of this team.

Whiskeyjim
04-30-2011, 05:03 PM
Bird says he sat down and talked to every player, including about "issues" from this past season. I'm hoping that's about Stephenson and/or Granger. I want someone to address Lance directly, though.What does this mean? Talking to the players should be an iterative ongoing process, not an end of season thing when it is too late.


Larry said we did not have a positive lockeroom, some players need to grow up, and that it cost us some gamesHere is Exhibit 1. Did Larry get involved during the season, or did he just find out about it when it had blown up? Sounds like ostrich management to me.

And with such a flat hierarchy, yes it damn well is Bird's job to get feedback and help players 'grow up.'


Addressed "not having a positive locker room." Said they understood what he said, "it'll never happen again."

If it does happen again with me here, you won't be.

There's some guys that need to grow up and be professionals.Fantastic. But any good team would have been addressing these issues as they occurred. That it blew up is a failure of the organization just as much as it is a failure of some immature players.

Someone earlier on this thread mentioned that Bird took an inordinate amount of time to understand that O'Brien was a problem. If anything, that is an understatement. O'Brien would have made one publically disparaging and demotivating statement about a player. Just one. Then I would have ripped him a new *ssh**e.

Much of these past two seasons is on Bird. I wonder if he realizes that, since in all of his pronouncements he blames others while he leaves the impression of almost total non-involvement.

Especially this last season is a fairly obvious story of a broken franchise.

McKeyFan
05-01-2011, 10:31 PM
Someone earlier on this thread mentioned that Bird took an inordinate amount of time to understand that O'Brien was a problem. If anything, that is an understatement. .
Bird has some good and some bad on his resume. This is definitely a strike against him. Let's hope it was just an anomalous blind spot and not a sign of pervasive bad judgment.

Sookie
05-02-2011, 02:11 PM
Bird has some good and some bad on his resume. This is definitely a strike against him. Let's hope it was just an anomalous blind spot and not a sign of pervasive bad judgment.

"I'm bullish about Lance" -Larry Bird

I think I would have called him bullish about O'brien too. He's even doing the same things with Lance as he did with O'brien, blaming poor performance/behavior on something other than the individual for example.

I think Larry's done a good job. But I think he gets...well in his words..bullish..about certain things. And doesn't bend on it. (I actually think refusing to trade Tinsley for "less than his value" is another one)

aaronb
05-02-2011, 02:37 PM
"I'm bullish about Lance" -Larry Bird

I think I would have called him bullish about O'brien too. He's even doing the same things with Lance as he did with O'brien, blaming poor performance/behavior on something other than the individual for example.

I think Larry's done a good job. But I think he gets...well in his words..bullish..about certain things. And doesn't bend on it. (I actually think refusing to trade Tinsley for "less than his value" is another one)


You can argue that he refused to tear down the roster for better draft position as well?

vnzla81
05-02-2011, 02:39 PM
"I'm bullish about Lance" -Larry Bird

I think I would have called him bullish about O'brien too. He's even doing the same things with Lance as he did with O'brien, blaming poor performance/behavior on something other than the individual for example.

I think Larry's done a good job. But I think he gets...well in his words..bullish..about certain things. And doesn't bend on it. (I actually think refusing to trade Tinsley for "less than his value" is another one)

Well it looks like he is also taking his time to cut AJ, I would have done it long time ago and never look back.

BillS
05-02-2011, 04:04 PM
You can argue that he refused to tear down the roster for better draft position as well?

Like that's a universally agreed upon legitimate action?

aaronb
05-02-2011, 04:12 PM
Like that's a universally agreed upon legitimate action?


I said you can argue it. Just an opinion shared by some.

Sookie
05-02-2011, 07:19 PM
Well it looks like he is also taking his time to cut AJ, I would have done it long time ago and never look back.

That'd be stupid for a number of reasons.

But I really don't need to defend Price. He'll make my point for me.