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HoopMoney
04-24-2011, 08:42 PM
Vogel out-coaching COY candidate

Interim head coach of the Indiana Pacers Frank Vogel is out-coaching the coach of the year candidate Tom Thibodeau of the Chicago Bulls. From Frank's charming and always positive attitude that instills confidence in his players and excitement to the fans. To his basketball knowledge that was developed through countless hours of watching video. We have lucked into a gem of a coach.

Coach Thibodeu did a good job in the regular season with the Bulls. He had them playing hard for every game and it showed by them getting the best record in the NBA after two seasons of 41 wins. 'Tibs' is what his players like to call him is a no-nonsense kind of coach. His always sweaty looking frown that spits out defensive cliche's constantly that worked well during the regular season must be getting old by now. He's a one trick pony that at some point will be tuned out by his players if he doesn't adjust.

The Bulls players bought into the play hard defense and let Derrick Rose run the offense. But what happens now that Chicago is in a tough seven game series and adjustments need to be made? Their media is clamoring for a blow-out win to restore the confidence they once had. The Chicago players faces are looking bewildered. They don't know why the lowly Pacers have out-played them for three and a half quarters in every game.

It's because coach Vogel has out-coached Thibodeau. Frank has made adjustments in every game to give the Pacers a chance to win. Coach Tibs have not made any discernible adjustments and as a result have been figured out by the Pacers. If it were not for the young Pacers nervousness at the end of these games. Indiana could have swept Chicago.

The Pacers maturation process have been accelerated by this series. Even if they lose game five in Chicago. This team will grow over the summer and be stronger knowing that they can play with anybody. This brewing rivalry is going to be fun to watch for years to come. When the Bulls get a shooting guard that can't be guarded by a point guard watch out.

Do you think Frank has out-coached Tibs? Do you believe that that the Pacers are a good match-up for the Bulls? What adjustments would you make if you were the coach of the Bulls? Was game four a sign that the Pacers are learning how to close out games? What are your thoughts? Feel free to drop some knowledge. Go Pacers!

Fellow Area 55ers and PTOers, HoopMoney droppin knowledge. Oww!

AesopRockOn
04-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Thibodeau feels like Mike Brown all over again.

travmil
04-24-2011, 08:57 PM
Saying Vogel has outcoached Thibodeau would imply that he's the one with the 3-1 lead. Since he's not I highly doubt it's true.

ilive4sports
04-24-2011, 08:58 PM
Thibodeau feels like Mike Brown all over again.

I've been telling my one friend who is a Bulls fan that Chicago reminds me of the LeBron led Cavs so much. Way too dependent on one player.

ilive4sports
04-24-2011, 08:59 PM
Saying Vogel has outcoached Thibodeau would imply that he's the one with the 3-1 lead. Since he's not I highly doubt it's true.

If rosters were even then yes, but the fact is that Chicago is barely winning with a more talented roster. Vogel has come up with a great defensive scheme to slow Rose. That alone seems to be more than what Thibodeau has done

travmil
04-24-2011, 09:02 PM
When exactly did he slow Rose? Even in his supposed "bad" game 4, he still went for 15 pts and 10 dimes. I'd love to have our PG slowed down that much.

HoopMoney
04-24-2011, 09:15 PM
With Rose now in a walking boot. How is Chicago going to be able to make adjustments to their offense? If Derrick can't practice then how will their starting five get any better than they have already been? If the Pacers can win game 5 then that is going to put a lot of pressure on the Bulls with their over the top media.

MrSparko
04-24-2011, 09:16 PM
I see no way that Rose's 15 points last game were impressive. If you chuck up 20+ shots you're bound to hit some...(6).

travmil
04-24-2011, 09:18 PM
I didn't say it was impressive. Stop putting words in my mouth. What I said was that I would love our starting PG to have a "bad" game like that.

Gold
04-24-2011, 09:25 PM
When exactly did he slow Rose? Even in his supposed "bad" game 4, he still went for 15 pts and 10 dimes. I'd love to have our PG slowed down that much.

When someone scores way below their average, that is slowing down. When someone shoots 35% over a series, that is slowing down.

Bball
04-24-2011, 09:31 PM
I've been telling my one friend who is a Bulls fan

You only have one friend? ...And he's a Bulls fan to boot... How sad... :cry:



;)

ilive4sports
04-24-2011, 09:32 PM
When exactly did he slow Rose? Even in his supposed "bad" game 4, he still went for 15 pts and 10 dimes. I'd love to have our PG slowed down that much.

Rose is shooting 35% for the series. How is that not slowing him?

Yes, I only have one friend and he happens to be a bulls fan:cry:

Can we be friends?

IndyHoya
04-24-2011, 09:34 PM
I've been telling my one friend who is a Bulls fan that Chicago reminds me of the LeBron led Cavs so much. Way too dependent on one player.

Aside from the defensive schemes we've thrown at Rose, don't forget what we've done with Boozer and Deng too. Chicago isn't totally one-dimensional, we've put the hurt on some of their other guys too.

BringJackBack
04-24-2011, 09:38 PM
If Vogel isn't back next year than I will officially be pissed at the Pacers FO for the rest of my life. I am completely convinced that he is the next great coach in this league. He has DRose, the MVP of the league, shooting 35% in this series and Boozer, our achilles heel in the regular season, shooting around 36% from the field. He has beyond elite people skills for an NBA coach, and he has our team, an 8th seed, motivated to go toe to toe with the 'big bad' Chicago Bulls.

And he'll only improve.

Hicks
04-24-2011, 10:08 PM
Saying Vogel has outcoached Thibodeau would imply that he's the one with the 3-1 lead. Since he's not I highly doubt it's true.

Did you forget that one coach has Derrick Rose and the other one doesn't?

Hicks
04-24-2011, 10:10 PM
When exactly did he slow Rose? Even in his supposed "bad" game 4, he still went for 15 pts and 10 dimes. I'd love to have our PG slowed down that much.

35% shooting means nothing, I see......

Unclebuck
04-24-2011, 10:29 PM
I think the fact that Thibodeau got this Bulls team to win 62 games he should be coach of the decade - that is how good a job I think he did this past season. After I saw the Bulls destroy the pacers back in January, I declared then that the Bulls were the best coached team in the NBA.

I think Thibodeau is a great coach.

I think the suggestion that Thibodeau has not made any adjustments is absurd. How about shutting off one of our best plays the high pick and pop with Tyler and Darren. How about going away from fronting Roy (like they tried in game #1) which is the Bulls way they play the post. There have ben a number of adjustments.

Give Vogel credit, but I think you can do that without criticizing Thibs

El Pacero
04-24-2011, 10:30 PM
I liked the post Hoopmoney, and am loving Vogel, but gotta give love to the players as well. Even though it's a pretty good match up for us, some of them (Paul George first comes to mind) are playing out of their minds right now. Vogel has put them in a position to play their best and several are taking huge advantage of this. Despite only one win during the playoffs, this "new" coach and "new" team has to make you proud to be a Pacers fan.

Unclebuck
04-24-2011, 10:31 PM
I've been telling my one friend who is a Bulls fan that Chicago reminds me of the LeBron led Cavs so much. Way too dependent on one player.

is that the coaches fault? No, he was dealt this team and he has gotten them to way over-achieve

travmil
04-24-2011, 10:49 PM
Did you forget that one coach has Derrick Rose and the other one doesn't?

No. All I'm saying is that using the word "outcoached" implies that Vogel found a way to win the series and he hasn't. That's all. I hope he comes back and wins it, but until he does he's "outcoached" Thibodeau about as much as I have.

OK I admit the "about as much as I have" part is facetious as I don't even like coaching my kids YMCA practices, but you get the point.

ilive4sports
04-24-2011, 10:54 PM
is that the coaches fault? No, he was dealt this team and he has gotten them to way over-achieve

I never said it was the coaches fault. Just meant to compare them to another great regular season team that won a ton of games, but when the playoffs come, they aren't as strong as we thought.


No. All I'm saying is that using the word "outcoached" implies that Vogel found a way to win the series and he hasn't. That's all. I hope he comes back and wins it, but until he does he's "outcoached" Thibodeau about as much as I have.

I disagree. Because then our team would be outplaying them. Vogel is outcoaching Thibs, but the Bulls are still outplaying the Pacers.

spazzxb
04-24-2011, 10:56 PM
No. All I'm saying is that using the word "outcoached" implies that Vogel found a way to win the series and he hasn't. That's all. I hope he comes back and wins it, but until he does he's "outcoached" Thibodeau about as much as I have.

OK I admit the "about as much as I have" part is facetious as I don't even like coaching my kids YMCA practices, but you get the point.

Did you see how the Bulls one game one and 2? He did far more than you.

travmil
04-24-2011, 11:06 PM
Umm....yeah that's why I added that last part right before you quoted the whole thing. Was it not green enough? Anyway, I apologize I guess for not agreeing with everyone. I'll shut up now.

Hicks
04-24-2011, 11:24 PM
No. All I'm saying is that using the word "outcoached" implies that Vogel found a way to win the series and he hasn't. That's all.

Then we simply don't agree on the definition of "outcoached".

I liken outcoaching someone to outplaying someone.

Danny Granger can outplay Luol Deng in this series, but that doesn't mean the Pacers will win the series, for example.

AesopRockOn
04-24-2011, 11:32 PM
I think we've outplayed the Bulls 87.5% of the series.

Unclebuck
04-25-2011, 09:00 AM
I never said it was the coaches fault. Just meant to compare them to another great regular season team that won a ton of games, but when the playoffs come, they aren't as strong as we thought.




Cavs did get to the NBA Finals

Unclebuck
04-25-2011, 09:02 AM
I think we've outplayed the Bulls 87.5% of the series.


I wouldn't say that. perhaps it seems that way because the pacers are the underdog. But really I would say that the series has been played about 75% of the time dead even. Look at game #3, no team had a lead of more than 7 points. Besides game #4 the other three games have been even IMO. And even game #4 ended up almost dead even

indygeezer
04-25-2011, 09:19 AM
Dang this sounds like the arguements we used to have about Allen Iverson and the 6er's.

Bball
04-25-2011, 10:04 AM
That hyphen in the title has me seeing "Vogel out" like there is some info or inside info telling us Vogel will be out as Pacers' coach once the post season is over.

MrHale
04-25-2011, 10:19 AM
Saying Vogel has outcoached Thibodeau would imply that he's the one with the 3-1 lead. Since he's not I highly doubt it's true.

...so ur basically saying its impossible for a team to outplay/outcoach a team if there on the losing end?

Kid Minneapolis
04-25-2011, 10:29 AM
Ehhhhh..... a lot of points I need to refute in this thread regarding Thibodeau:

1) Thibodeau's record has been impressive, but let's not forget that he came into a pretty damn good team situation. I don't think Chicago has "no talent". That's a misconception. They were already a 40+ win team, and that's not counting the expected growth of young Derrick Rose and the acquisition of other players. Boozer, jackass that he is, is talented. Luol Deng is a helluva player. Noah --- helluva player. Korver is a great shooter, if a defensive liability. I think this Chicago team is a better one, talent-wise, top-to-bottom, than LeBron's Cav's teams. It's not like he was handed the the 2011 Indiana Pacers who were 17-30 and had lost like 20 of 22 and looked awful. He was handed the keys to Derrick Rose, and a Bulls team that had made some decent personnel moves (or at least made some moves). Thibs did well with some injuries and he did well defensively, but I'm not ready to declare Thibs the next Bill Belichick. It's way too early, the context is still being defined, and frankly, there are some distant red flags... which goes to next point:
2) Using their talent to max potential. Their offense is just as much run through one player as the Cavs were, despite having, in my mind, more talent. I had said before the playoffs that the Bulls were regular season studs, and playoff duds because of their setup. And it's proving true already in the first round. Chicago is up 3-1, but has been outplayed for large stretches, and is looking frazzled and beat up. They look tired, which is exactly what I said had to be setting in, due to the way they've played "all out" all year. And that, to me, is a red flag on the coaching. Someone made the Mike Brown comparison, and I have to concede the point. It's a very valid comparison. Both are defensive coaches, and both couldn't find ways to get other players involved offensively outside their stud player. There are flaws in that team, and even if (when) they get past Indy, the hill only gets more uphill beyond that...

Really?
04-25-2011, 10:30 AM
Only problem with this is that at the end of the games when it mattered the most either, Vogel didn't out get his team to execute the plan as he called it, he didn't have a good plan, the players didn't listen to the plan, or the players are just bad.

I think that there are a couple of factors to consider when a Team is down 3-1 in a series and they had huge/decent leads in the 4th and couldn't keep them.

Rose is a good player, and yeah we slowed him down, but not when it mattered the most at the end of the game, and thats why they ended up with the W and we ended up with the L.

Just Saying...

Kid Minneapolis
04-25-2011, 10:35 AM
It's a superstar league. You can get outplayed for 46 minutes, and still get bailed out when you have a LeBron or a Kobe or Wade or Rose.

Really?
04-25-2011, 11:06 AM
It's a superstar league. You can get outplayed for 46 minutes, and still get bailed out when you have a LeBron or a Kobe or Wade or Rose.

But the thing is if the reason that you are getting bailed out is because of the other teams lackluster play then it doesn't matter, 24s shot clock violations, silly turnovers, bad shot selection, not moving the ball around, not being able to inbounds the ball, wasting timeouts because of it.

The superstar doesn't have as much to do with that.

SMosley21
04-25-2011, 11:13 AM
When exactly did he slow Rose? Even in his supposed "bad" game 4, he still went for 15 pts and 10 dimes. I'd love to have our PG slowed down that much.

Well considering Rose's averages, I would say he was slowed quite a bit, especially considering it took him 22 shots to score those 15 points. Our point guard's performance has absolutely nothing to do with that fact.

And to be more completely obvious, his production has gone down in every game of the series. I think that's the very definition of slowing him down.

Kid Minneapolis
04-25-2011, 11:18 AM
But the thing is if the reason that you are getting bailed out is because of the other teams lackluster play then it doesn't matter, 24s shot clock violations, silly turnovers, bad shot selection, not moving the ball around, not being able to inbounds the ball, wasting timeouts because of it.

The superstar doesn't have as much to do with that.

I will counter with this:

Youth. It takes experience to win in crunch time. The Bulls have not only experience, but also a dynamic player who can create his own shot and go 1-on-5 (which is another way you can overcome crunch-time lulls). Think about how the Bulls would be faring without Derrick Rose not taking over in the last 3 minutes. The Pacers don't have a dynamic, 1-on-5 guy they can go to and bail them out in crunch time.

The Pacers not only have a first-time coach who's barely 40 games into his career, but also a bunch of players who've never been in the playoffs. They're still figuring things out. The last game shows that they are doing just that.

Major Cold
04-25-2011, 11:39 AM
Lets not be homers here. Leave that for the Bulls fans.

Thibs is a great defensive coach, who engages the refs tactfully. The only qualms I have with him is his inability to read our personnel and bring his players in quicker.

For instance, Kyle Korver. You would think that PG should man handle Korver, but he has not. Chalk it up to youth, but Thibs needs to play Korver more in the first half and bring in Rasual Butler if Korver can't handle the minutes.

While Bogans and Deng duo contain Danny a bit, both do not need to play as long as they have. Pinching the PnP with Hans, Bogans and Deng help incredibly, but if it is not working for the Pacers early, we quickly go away from it.

Watson and Rose together should happen more in game 5, to help out Rose. Whenever Watson is out there we just need to bring in AJ, he owns CJ.

Thibs having Boozer and Gibson out there hurts against our second unit. I would utilize Omer a little more with Gibson out there. The issue is that Boozer is not getting in rhythm. And having him out there when Roy and Tyler aren't relieves his defensive responsibilities.

When you need 3 you never send out what Thibs sent out in game 4 with Rose/Korver/Deng/Noah?/Boozer

Meanwhile Vogel sends out 3 wings and two frontcourt players, which was genius.

Regardless I think Thibs is a good coach making some poor choices. I think the Bulls are a 2nd tier team playing 3rd tier team ball.

We have a good coach making mostly great choices. I think the Pacers are a 3rd tier team playing 2nd tier team ball.

Major Cold
04-25-2011, 11:41 AM
But the thing is if the reason that you are getting bailed out is because of the other teams lackluster play then it doesn't matter, 24s shot clock violations, silly turnovers, bad shot selection, not moving the ball around, not being able to inbounds the ball, wasting timeouts because of it.

The superstar doesn't have as much to do with that.


But Superstars also predominantly don't: 24s shot clock violations, silly turnovers, bad shot selection, not moving the ball around, not being able to inbounds the ball, wasting timeouts because of it.

CableKC
04-25-2011, 12:22 PM
When exactly did he slow Rose? Even in his supposed "bad" game 4, he still went for 15 pts and 10 dimes. I'd love to have our PG slowed down that much.
As Mr.Sparko mentioned....6-22 FG% / 1-9 3pt / 2-4 FTA...isn't that great. Considering that he averages 6 to 8 FTA a game throughout the season while going to the FT line 21-13-15 FTA in the 1st 3 games....that is actually REALLY impressive on our end.

I do not know what we did in game 4 to keep DRose off the FT line...but we have to do that again in order to stay alive.

Since86
04-25-2011, 12:58 PM
I wouldn't say that. perhaps it seems that way because the pacers are the underdog. But really I would say that the series has been played about 75% of the time dead even. Look at game #3, no team had a lead of more than 7 points. Besides game #4 the other three games have been even IMO. And even game #4 ended up almost dead even

What are you talking about?

The #1 team in the regular season's largest lead out of 4 games has been 7 freaking points. Seven.....

They're shooting below 40% for the entire series.

They've faced double digit leads in, what, 3 out of the 4 games?

The Pacers have had the lead late in the 4th quarter every game.


The Bulls have Derrick Rose. The Pacers don't. That's the only difference.

Everything else is a positive for the Pacers, and a negative for the Bulls.


I would say when you bat 15 out of 16, that's called outplaying, outcoaching, outwhatever you want to call it.

The Bulls are lucky they have DRose who's been playing out of this world good games 1-3, or they'd be losing this series. The rest of their team sucks, or atleast has been sucking pretty hard this whole series.

The Pacers have outplayed Chicago for 45mins every single game.

If this was a conference finals series, then okay, the Bulls have outplayed the Pacers. But last time I checked this was a first round series, and the Bulls have scary calls the entire time.

There was a time when the talk was about how the Pacers didn't even deserve to be in the playoffs.....

Unclebuck
04-25-2011, 03:43 PM
What are you talking about?

The #1 team in the regular season's largest lead out of 4 games has been 7 freaking points. Seven.....

They're shooting below 40% for the entire series.

They've faced double digit leads in, what, 3 out of the 4 games?

The Pacers have had the lead late in the 4th quarter every game.


The Bulls have Derrick Rose. The Pacers don't. That's the only difference.

Everything else is a positive for the Pacers, and a negative for the Bulls.


I would say when you bat 15 out of 16, that's called outplaying, outcoaching, outwhatever you want to call it.

The Bulls are lucky they have DRose who's been playing out of this world good games 1-3, or they'd be losing this series. The rest of their team sucks, or atleast has been sucking pretty hard this whole series.

The Pacers have outplayed Chicago for 45mins every single game.

If this was a conference finals series, then okay, the Bulls have outplayed the Pacers. But last time I checked this was a first round series, and the Bulls have scary calls the entire time.

There was a time when the talk was about how the Pacers didn't even deserve to be in the playoffs.....


OK, I decided to go to the play-by play.

What I did is look for the largest lead in each quarter.

In game #1 the pacers had leads of 6, 8, 11, and 10 in each respective quarter.

In game #2 - the biggest leads in the first quarter was by the Bulls at 4 points. Second quarter pacers had an 8 point lead, Third quarter Bulls had a 6 point lead and a 5 point lead in the fourth. pacers biggest lead in the 4th quarter was 2 points.

In game #3 - Bulls had a 5 pt lead. Second quarter Bulls had a 6 point lead and the Pacers a 5 point lead. Third quarter noether team had more than a 3 point lead - (that has to be a record of some sort). In the fourth quarter each team had a 5 point lead.

Game #4 Pacers lead the whole way.


So the Bulls faced double digit deficits in two of the 4 games, although game #1 was brief and 11 points was max.

Games 2 and 3 were about as even as two NBA games could possible be.

Pacers lead the whole 1st game until the very end and lead the 4th game.

Ok so 50% of the time the games have been dead even - I am saying 2 and 3 were dead even.

Pacers have not outplayed the Bulls in 45 minutes every game, only in games #1 and #4

I think an unbiased observer after watching each of these 4 games would probably say either the series should be tied 2-2 or the pacers should nead 3-1

Since86
04-25-2011, 04:19 PM
I think an unbiased observer after watching each of these 4 games would probably say either the series should be tied 2-2 or the pacers should nead 3-1

I would say you're right, but you also have to acknowledge the fact that it's a 1-8 matchup in the first round.

If the 8 seed should be atleast tied 2-2 in the series with the top seed, it's pretty obvious to say that the 8 seed is outplaying and outcoaching the 1 seed.

Unclebuck
04-25-2011, 04:22 PM
I would say you're right, but you also have to acknowledge the fact that it's a 1-8 matchup in the first round.

If the 8 seed should be atleast tied 2-2 in the series with the top seed, it's pretty obvious to say that the 8 seed is outplaying and outcoaching the 1 seed.


Sure, I don't think I suggested otherwise. I was wrong about the 75% figure though from my earlier post.

ilive4sports
04-25-2011, 04:56 PM
Cavs did get to the NBA Finals

In a weak Eastern Conference and got swept in the NBA Finals. As the teams improved in the East, the Cavs regressed in their playoff runs.

In today's NBA, you cannot rely on one player as much as the Bulls are right now. Orlando is doing the same thing with Dwight right now. Basketball is a team game and it's showing. Even MJ had Pippen.

Really?
04-25-2011, 05:50 PM
I will counter with this:

Youth. It takes experience to win in crunch time. The Bulls have not only experience, but also a dynamic player who can create his own shot and go 1-on-5 (which is another way you can overcome crunch-time lulls). Think about how the Bulls would be faring without Derrick Rose not taking over in the last 3 minutes. The Pacers don't have a dynamic, 1-on-5 guy they can go to and bail them out in crunch time.

The Pacers not only have a first-time coach who's barely 40 games into his career, but also a bunch of players who've never been in the playoffs. They're still figuring things out. The last game shows that they are doing just that.

Last 4 years 2 playoff showings, both first round losses... They have a more experience then us sure, but I don't think that it should play that big a factor in the 4th....but I am probably the minority... I think that a outstanding coach would be able to account for that.


But Superstars also predominantly don't: 24s shot clock violations, silly turnovers, bad shot selection, not moving the ball around, not being able to inbounds the ball, wasting timeouts because of it.

Huh... yeah but I am talking about more of the Pacers not coming through when they have the ball, not the other way around... so many leads have been lost because we just don't know how to be efficient with time, or shot selection in the 4th specifically.

Rose didn't really factor into us doing those things that I mentioned, how did rose defensively affect a Hurt Collision pulling up for a jumper with 3 people on him and not kicking it to Danny...? if there is a answer I haven't heard it yet, please amuse me.

Mono
04-25-2011, 07:20 PM
I think it's just about even. Thibedeaux has used smart rotations to put his team in position to win games. It seems as though Vogel has his team better prepared. But Indiana has played scared at the end of each of these games -- even game 4, whereas Chicago has gone into attack mode. Part of that may be attributable to experience, but Chicago's play-calling and late game rotations are better than Indiana's. For instance, the way they use Korver is very intelligent, and they're able to maximize his effectiveness partly because PG is defending Rose. He also has Noah doing a solid defensive job on Hibbert. It's hard for me to say that Thibs is being outcoached when Chicago is up 3-1, especially since if Indiana could execute in the last three minutes, they'd have swept the series.

I'm not criticizing Vogel. I love the intensity and the heart with which the Pacers are playing. This is what playoff basketball should be, and I think Vogel has earned the full-time gig.

But I don't think the talent disparity between the two teams is so great that it's a big shock that Indiana has been competitive. Indiana is above average at every position with an above average bench, and a couple of borderline-stars. Chicago has Rose, who is far better than anybody on the Pacers, but they also have several "place-holder" type players getting regular rotation minutes or even starting; and you know they have glaring weaknesses that any team would be foolish not to attack. (SG, PF).

The real difference in the series hasn't been the coaching, it's been PG's eye-opening defense. I don't know how much of that is attributable to Vogel.

BringJackBack
04-25-2011, 07:26 PM
Indiana is above average at every position with an above average bench, and a couple of borderline-stars.


This is really great praise coming from a guy who doesn't really have a biased or homer view of the team...how many games do you think we can win next year if we keep this roster in tact?

Mono
04-25-2011, 07:41 PM
This is really great praise coming from a guy who doesn't really have a biased or homer view of the team...how many games do you think we can win next year if we keep this roster in tact?

I'm not sure how unbiased I can claim to be. I like the Pacers. I've been following them for several seasons, getting more emotionally involved each year. (I fell in love with Danny Granger about the same time I decided I needed to follow an Eastern Conference team.) I hope I'm not a homer, but I tend to base my analysis on best case scenarios.

With the introduction of Vogel, and now through the playoffs, I am seriously falling in love with this team. I am watching these playoff games with my heart racing. I am shouting at the television. I am becoming a full-blooded Pacers fan. I no longer think of them as "the team Danny Granger's on." I watched 40 games this season. Next season I might watch 80. Next season I think I might start to use the word "we" when talking about the Pacers.

I am not objective.

But to answer your question, I think the goal for next year's Pacers team should be home court in the first round. Maybe 50 wins and a 4th seed. Just thinking out loud.

Marlin
04-25-2011, 10:48 PM
OK, I decided to go to the play-by play.

What I did is look for the largest lead in each quarter.

In game #1 the pacers had leads of 6, 8, 11, and 10 in each respective quarter.

In game #2 - the biggest leads in the first quarter was by the Bulls at 4 points. Second quarter pacers had an 8 point lead, Third quarter Bulls had a 6 point lead and a 5 point lead in the fourth. pacers biggest lead in the 4th quarter was 2 points.

In game #3 - Bulls had a 5 pt lead. Second quarter Bulls had a 6 point lead and the Pacers a 5 point lead. Third quarter noether team had more than a 3 point lead - (that has to be a record of some sort). In the fourth quarter each team had a 5 point lead.

Game #4 Pacers lead the whole way.


So the Bulls faced double digit deficits in two of the 4 games, although game #1 was brief and 11 points was max.

Games 2 and 3 were about as even as two NBA games could possible be.

Pacers lead the whole 1st game until the very end and lead the 4th game.

Ok so 50% of the time the games have been dead even - I am saying 2 and 3 were dead even.

Pacers have not outplayed the Bulls in 45 minutes every game, only in games #1 and #4

I think an unbiased observer after watching each of these 4 games would probably say either the series should be tied 2-2 or the pacers should nead 3-1

Early in the second quarter of game 4 TNT actually showed this interesting stat:

Time with lead (gms 1-3)

- Bulls 52 mins, 15 secs

- Pacers 74 mins, 44 secs

Now, considering that the Pacers led game 4 all the way, except for some very early ties, I'd say we've had the lead more than twice the Bulls' time. Close to 70% of the total, to put it in other numbers.

Tought it was pretty interesting.

Unclebuck
04-25-2011, 11:02 PM
Just re-watching game #4 and what Vogel said between quarters 3 and 4 has been the key to the defense. " make sure we help on Rose s early as possible" That right there is the key to guarding Rose. help on him before he gets into the lane

Eleazar
04-25-2011, 11:33 PM
Early in the second quarter of game 4 TNT actually showed this interesting stat:

Time with lead (gms 1-3)

- Bulls 52 mins, 15 secs

- Pacers 74 mins, 44 secs

Now, considering that the Pacers led game 4 all the way, except for some very early ties, I'd say we've had the lead more than twice the Bulls' time. Close to 70% of the total, to put it in other numbers.

Tought it was pretty interesting.

I'm surprised the Bulls have even had the lead that much, it really doesn't feel like they have at all. I think that is probably why people feel like the Pacers have out-played and out-coached the Bulls for 42 of 48 minutes every game. When you watch it it just feels like the Pacers are out-playing and out-coaching the Bulls. I think that is more telling than cold stats that don't really take into consideration the feel of the games.