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Shade
04-23-2011, 05:48 PM
Vogel has earned the job. Give him a 2-3 year deal and let's go upgrade the roster.

BringJackBack
04-23-2011, 05:50 PM
Today the team has grown. The past three games we couldn't get it done, today we did.

Baby steps. I want Vogel back because he's growing too. He gets these guys to play harder than any team in the league.

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 05:51 PM
I agree, Larry or whoever needs to sign this guy today, best Pacers coach of the last 4years by a big margin.

hoosierguy
04-23-2011, 05:53 PM
If the Pacers compete in Game 5 then I would agree.

They can't get blown out.

dal9
04-23-2011, 05:55 PM
I agree, Larry or whoever needs to sign this guy today, best Pacers coach of the last 4years by a big margin.

lol so he is better than exactly one other Pacers coach?

grace
04-23-2011, 05:55 PM
The fact that I actually watched the game should be enough for Vogel to get the job. I can't begin to tell you when the last time was I enjoyed a Pacer game. (Of course if Larry were to leave I'd enjoy it even more.)

LG33
04-23-2011, 05:56 PM
I like that he has gotten the Pacers to come back strong every game despite all the heartbreaking losses. I disagree with his overuse of Dahntay Jones these past two games.

Dr. Hibbert
04-23-2011, 05:58 PM
I want to agree, but feel like 4-5 games can't sway the discussion definitively. He's had a fair chance to prove himself and get his tactic on tape. It will eventually be time to be level-headed, objectively consider those and weigh them against other prospective candidates. That is how smart business decisions are made.

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 06:00 PM
lol so he is better than exactly one other Pacers coach?

Yep, way better than the clown :cool:

Sandman21
04-23-2011, 06:01 PM
I'll say it: I think he has by and largely outcoached the NBA COTY all series long.

focused444
04-23-2011, 06:02 PM
a few quotes from Vogel's post game interview on nbatv

"this is the scrappiest team I've ever seen, not the scrappiest I've ever been around, the scrappiest team I've ever seen"

"We know nobody has come back from 3-0. We know it's gonna happen one day. We're trying to make it us"

''We're upset we're down in the series. We should be leading the series"

-Vogel

He's still learning on the fly, but man this guy is good at speaking with the media. Getting real close on being sold myself.

KingGeorge
04-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Can we just sign him for the rest of his life? :)

AesopRockOn
04-23-2011, 06:14 PM
Of course we should look at all our options, but I would be absolutely cool with having Frank back. Some nice assistant coaches to shore up our weak points would be helpful as well.

Kuq_e_Zi91
04-23-2011, 06:15 PM
He was asked if he was surprised by the Bulls fans in Conseco. His response was that he didn't even notice them. All he saw were Pacer fans, all he heard were Pacer chants and the only colors he saw were yellow and blue. I loved it.

troyc11a
04-23-2011, 06:16 PM
Can we just sign him for the rest of his life? :)

I was in love with Larry Brown and Rick Carlisle at one time too. But I wish they would just go ahead and sign him already!

luis3ep
04-23-2011, 06:18 PM
Completely Agree. This team clearly listens and believes in Vogel, you know.. that one young guy who's the youngest coach in the league? We have a good thing going right now. why make drastic changes in the Coaching and Front Office Dept.? maybe if we were a bottom team in the lottery we should clear house, not under these Circumstances. Keep Vogel and Bird. those 2 are vital reasons why the team is playing as it is.

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 06:30 PM
Yep, sign this guy http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/vogel_100x150.jpg trade for this guys http://chime.in/images/team_images/nba/players/Cavaliers/Anderson%20Varejao.jpg +

http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/monta_ellis.jpg and sign this guy as a free agent


http://chime.in/images/team_images/nba/players/Hawks/Jamal%20Crawford.jpg

:cool:

xBulletproof
04-23-2011, 06:37 PM
I'm down. I was down from the beginning, then wavered during the Lance/locker room issues. That blowup could have sunk this team and the season been over. The fact that he overcame whatever was going on in that locker room and we're giving the #1 seed everything they can handle is enough for me. I don't care if we get blown out in game 5 even. I'm not going to hinge my coaching decision on a single game.

I'll be upset if he isn't here next year. He's earned it. If we played like this from the start of the year we're a much higher seed today.

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 06:40 PM
Yep, sign this guy http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/vogel_100x150.jpg trade for this guys http://chime.in/images/team_images/nba/players/Cavaliers/Anderson%20Varejao.jpg +

http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/monta_ellis.jpg and sign this guy as a free agent


http://chime.in/images/team_images/nba/players/Hawks/Jamal%20Crawford.jpg

:cool:

you want ellis and crawford? You know we play with one ball right?

Isaac
04-23-2011, 06:41 PM
Something about Vogel reminds me of a young Jeff Van Gundy. He certainly interviews like him with the dry wit, clear anger over losses, yet utter confidence in the way his team plays.

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 06:43 PM
you want ellis and crawford? You know we play with one ball right?

I don't know how many times I need to explain this, I want crawford off the bench the guy is a bench player.

PR07
04-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Ellis and Collison would be the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA.

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 06:48 PM
I don't know how many times I need to explain this, I want crawford off the bench the guy is a bench player.

I get it, but I don't see the need for both. Crawford is a guy that gives you a solid 20 mins of the bench, he would play with Ellis at times. I'd just prefer one over the other. And considering what we would have to give to get Ellis, just sign Crawford.

Frank deserves the job. Our play this series has been outstanding. Our guys **** their pants at the end of the 4th, but that doesn't fall on Frank. He got us to the playoffs when we thought it wouldn't happen. He has made us competitive in every game against the #1 seed and we even won one. Bring Frank Back.

Isaac
04-23-2011, 06:49 PM
I don't know how many times I need to explain this, I want crawford off the bench the guy is a bench player.

Well, Monta you want playing 30+ minutes, and Crawford at least 25. They are going to play together at some point.

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 06:50 PM
Ellis and Collison would be the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA.

I don't see DC as our point guard of the future.

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 06:53 PM
Well, Monta you want playing 30+ minutes, and Crawford at least 25. They are going to play together at some point.

They played together in GS and did OK together, I don't see that as a big issue.

cdash
04-23-2011, 06:53 PM
Yep, I believe in Coach Vogel. I love his attitude and I think his defensive schemes have been amazing this series. Rose may be the MVP, but outside of Game 1, he really hasn't played that well. I love the guy's moves and I want him to be our coach full-time. He's earned it.

KingGeorge
04-23-2011, 06:55 PM
I don't see DC as our point guard of the future.

He is still very young. He will only get better with time.

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 07:03 PM
They played together in GS and did OK together, I don't see that as a big issue.

They barely played together. Crawford was traded from NY to GS in 08/09. He barely played with Monta that season because of Ellis's injury. Then in the off season Crawford got traded to Atlanta.

You dont see DC has the future point, yet who is gonna play point when we trade people for Ellis and sign Crawford who can't play point...

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 07:08 PM
They barely played together. Crawford was traded from NY to GS in 08/09. He barely played with Monta that season because of Ellis's injury. Then in the off season Crawford got traded to Atlanta.

You dont see DC has the future point, yet who is gonna play point when we trade people for Ellis and sign Crawford who can't play point...

I don't want Monta to be our point guard but if I had a choice between our undersize shooting guard in DC and Monta to play point guard, I would chose Monta 10 times out of 10.

The idea would be to get a defensive PG to play Monta at the 2.

By the way the same could be say about EJ if the Pacers were lucky enough to get him.

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 07:10 PM
I don't want Monta to be our point guard but if I had a choice between our undersize shooting guard in DC and Monta to play point guard, I would chose Monta 10 time out of 10.

The idea would be to get a defensive PG to play Monta at the 2.

By the way the same could be say about EJ if the Pacers were lucky enough to get him.

EJ is a much better defender than Monta. I just dont see Ellis being the answer for us. The way this roster is made up, he isn't that valuable to us. It would be much better to let the youngs guys develop and sign Crawford than trading young guys for Ellis and sign Crawford. Asking to trade for Ellis, a defensive PG and sign Crawford is just overkill and very hard to pull off if not impossible

vnzla81
04-23-2011, 07:16 PM
EJ is a much better defender than Monta. I just dont see Ellis being the answer for us. The way this roster is made up, he isn't that valuable to us. It would be much better to let the youngs guys develop and sign Crawford than trading young guys for Ellis and sign Crawford. Asking to trade for Ellis, a defensive PG and sign Crawford is just overkill and very hard to pull off if not impossible

My ideal scenario would be to trade Danny for Monta, why would you think that signing Crawford would be that hard to pull? he is a free agent right?

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 07:30 PM
My ideal scenario would be to trade Danny for Monta, why would you think that signing Crawford would be that hard to pull? he is a free agent right?

Where is the defensive PG coming from? Backcourt of Ellis and DC isn't gonna get it done. Crawford is gonna be the easiest person to get because he is a FA. I just don't think the pieces fit.

Sandman21
04-23-2011, 07:35 PM
He will only get better with time.

And having some stability at the head coaching position.

flox
04-23-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm not. It would be foolish not to explore all of our options.

Kid Minneapolis
04-23-2011, 07:46 PM
I don't see DC as our point guard of the future.

I don't see Monta Ellis as our PG of the future. I could maybe see having Crawford on our bench be a nice option, but not giving up any key pieces for him. EJ --- eh. Undecided.

gummy
04-23-2011, 07:48 PM
I was convinced after game 3. I'm firmly on the Vogel wagon.

I see no reason to turn this into a coronation though. I am not at all opposed to interviewing other candidates, and I think Larry should certainly question Vogel in-depth about his coaching philosophies going forward. But I hope Coach V gets the job.

Trader Joe
04-23-2011, 08:06 PM
Call me reactionary/emotional, whatever you want, but if we don't sign him and then go hire Mike ****ing Brown, I'm going to be one ticked off SOB.

Tom White
04-23-2011, 08:09 PM
Something about Vogel reminds me of a young Jeff Van Gundy. He certainly interviews like him with the dry wit, clear anger over losses, yet utter confidence in the way his team plays.

There is absolutely nothing about Vogel that reminds me of Van Gundy!

...and...

That is just another thing I like about Vogel!

Tom White
04-23-2011, 08:13 PM
He is still very young. He will only get better with time.

Yep. Meanwhile, Crawford will still be only a career 41% shooter, and Ellis will still not be a solid defender.

I just don't get people's attraction to guys like Crawford, Ellis, JR Smith and some others.

Kemo
04-23-2011, 08:16 PM
I'm not. It would be foolish not to explore all of our options.

NO , what WOULD be foolish , is to take this team's Coach away from them...
THAT would be "foolish" ..

When you have guys who go to war for and genuinely like and respect a coach like they do Vogel, You DO NOT bring in someone new..
The players will resent it, and it will crush everything this team has grown with Vogel as their leader..

Lightning struck in Pacerland , when Vogel landed in our laps.. Don't ***** this up Larry..

PaceBalls
04-23-2011, 08:21 PM
He was asked if he was surprised by the Bulls fans in Conseco. His response was that he didn't even notice them. All he saw were Pacer fans, all he heard were Pacer chants and the only colors he saw were yellow and blue. I loved it.

What is he blind and deaf?

The thing I wonder about Frank is can he keep our previously bi-polar team, who just went through the motions half the season, motivated for a couple years? If so, then heck yeah.

PacerPassion55
04-23-2011, 08:24 PM
vogel has definitely won me over. he knows exactly what to say, and he responds to it. like other posters have said, he has outcoached the COTY. lock him up. players respond to him, and so do us, the fans it seems like. we have a young team, and what better than having a young coach to grow with?

hoosierguy
04-23-2011, 08:25 PM
What is he blind and deaf?

The thing I wonder about Frank is can he keep our previously bi-polar team, who just went through the motions half the season, motivated for a couple years? If so, then heck yeah.

Oh give me a break. He wasn't going to acknowledge the opposing team's fans and he shouldn't have.

The Jackson shimmy
04-23-2011, 08:30 PM
My ideal scenario would be to trade Danny for Monta, why would you think that signing Crawford would be that hard to pull? he is a free agent right?


As someone who is not much of a Granger fan and wouldn't be
upset at all to see him moved in the right deal, the prospect
of a DG for Ellis deal leaves me speechless and shaking my head
(and I don't mean shaking it up and down...).

Eleazar
04-23-2011, 08:36 PM
Yep. Meanwhile, Crawford will still be only a career 41% shooter, and Ellis will still not be a solid defender.

I just don't get people's attraction to guys like Crawford, Ellis, JR Smith and some others.

Just like Allen Iverson they put up great stats, but ultimately the only reason they are able to is because they shoot way more than they should and/or the have an offense design specifically for them to put up great stats. (see Collison in New Orleans)

troyc11a
04-23-2011, 08:44 PM
NO , what WOULD be foolish , is to take this team's Coach away from them...
THAT would be "foolish" ..

When you have guys who go to war for and genuinely like and respect a coach like they do Vogel, You DO NOT bring in someone new..
The players will resent it, and it will crush everything this team has grown with Vogel as their leader..

Lightning struck in Pacerland , when Vogel landed in our laps.. Don't ***** this up Larry..

This is a coaching situation that can only be screwed up. Do the right thing and hire the man. He has earned it and the team will follow him. The last part being the most important.

Lamar Mundane
04-23-2011, 10:49 PM
Just like Allen Iverson they put up great stats, but ultimately the only reason they are able to is because they shoot way more than they should and/or the have an offense design specifically for them to put up great stats. (see Collison in New Orleans)

Not sure what's up with the lack of DC love on this board. Does everyone realize this is his second season, first with the pacers? He hasn't done what he did at NO, but that team had more and better finishers than we currently do. As our offensive weapons get better, movement improves, his PG relevant stats will improve. And he's fast as hell, Rose has trouble staying with him. Let's give the guy a couple seasons at least before passing judgement.

Isaac
04-24-2011, 12:53 AM
There is absolutely nothing about Vogel that reminds me of Van Gundy!

...and...

That is just another thing I like about Vogel!

Foolish! JVG is a fantastic coach, and far and away the best broadcaster on TV.

LA_Confidential
04-24-2011, 02:18 AM
Coach Frank has the respect of this team especially its "Core" players. They truly believe in what he has to offer. Bird must add veteran pieces. Professionals, most likely specialty players. Add NENE and Jamal Crawford to this team and we Sweep the Bulls.

ilive4sports
04-24-2011, 02:25 AM
Coach Frank has the respect of this team especially its "Core" players. They truly believe in what he has to offer. Bird must add veteran pieces. Professionals, most likely specialty players. Add NENE and Jamal Crawford to this team and we Sweep the Bulls.

Now Nene and Crawford, those are two players I would love to sign.

Foul on Smits
04-24-2011, 02:31 AM
I really like Frank. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I like him. That said, this team if very young and I feel like they need a vet coach to develope them and help them reach there potential. I'm not sure Frank is that guy.

joeyd
04-24-2011, 02:42 AM
For those of you sitting on the fence about Frank: What is there not to like about him? Where are the red flags?

I went to the game and before it started, they showed some of his pre-game quotes on the jumbotron. He said something to the effect that he realized that no team has ever come back from a 3-0 deficit before. But some day, one team will. Frank is not promising to win the series, but he has delivered on everything he has promised so far. Playoffs, check. Making some noise in Round One, check.

This guy is getting things done with what he has to work with, without benefit of even half a season or a training camp to work from. He is instilling confidence in and winning over the players AND the fans. He has learned much, but is making great calls and adjustments in the series. He cannot be blamed for today's near collapse---that's the result of poor execution for the most part. Vogel's defensive strategy on Rose has been tremendous and will be used by others in the playoffs.

What is it that you think others will bring to the table that Frank eventually would not?

mattie
04-24-2011, 05:03 AM
I still have a problem with some of Vogel's rotations. For a team to ever win you cannot mess this up.

Two mistakes I've seen so far from Vogel. The first is when he put DJ on Rose instead of PG when Rose scored the game sealing layup. Just a bad move, Made absolutely no sense. Rose clearly has a lot of problems with Paul George. This has nothing to do with "throw different things at Rose." With such an important point in the game, it made me doubt him when he screwed up that play call.

The second is when he didn't play Paul in the 4th in this last game. I love DJ, but with about 5 to go Paul should have been back in the game. Especially since he was doing so well on the offensive side as well.

I know it wouldn't seem like a big deal, but one of those mistakes some could argue directly correlated to the Pacers losing game 3.

I'm glad Rose wasn't able to convert on several of the wide open shots he was able to get on DJ, but if he had gone off in the 4th, the Pacers wouldn't have won game 4. Vogel dodged a bullet on that one.

Not saying he shouldn't be coach! I love it so far, but I do want to know how he could screw that up? Most other coaches I'd assume would not make that mistake.

Edit- Also, when he put Rush in the game for the Bulls last possession!! That literally almost cost them the game! Rush once AGAIN fell asleep off the ball and Korver was wide open at the top of the key. Fortunately the Bulls were unable to get the ball to him.

Midcoasted
04-24-2011, 05:12 AM
You can bet your *** Frank Vogel better get the job. He may be the best coach in the league right now at analyzing video. For the people who says he tells his players to just go out and play, it just shows that you have no clue what's really going on out there. This dude has outcoached the best coach in the league and Frank Vogel deserves this job. He did what O'Brien couldn't do in three years and that was to get this team to compete again, and Vogel did it with half a season after a 17-27 start and the players in the dumps. The soft schedule was never an excuse, because under O'Brien the bad teams always smacked us down and we would occasionally show up for a good team.

Frank Vogel. The youngest head coach in the NBA, but a damn good one, and he knows video better than anyone, and that's where the great coaches are definied, is in the film room.

PacerDude
04-24-2011, 09:03 AM
I think it's a perfect combination. Young, energetic team. Young, energetic coach. Really good things can happen while they both grow up and mature.

ksuttonjr76
04-24-2011, 09:38 AM
Personally...I say give him the job. The one thing that I like about Vogel is his constant adjustments he makes for each game. I shudder at the thought what this team can do with a full season under Vogel.

rexnom
04-24-2011, 09:42 AM
Vogel has done an excellent job adjusting from game to game and countering the Bulls' adjustments. It's amazing how the best team in the NBA with the COY keeps playing worse and worse.

Hicks
04-24-2011, 02:18 PM
Now Nene and Crawford, those are two players I would love to sign.

Oh, hell yeah. I'd be crazy excited if we get both of them.

Collison/Price
George/Crawford
Granger/Rush or Jones
Nene/Hansbrough
Hibbert/Nene

Not perfect, but you know what, it might just be good enough so long as George becomes an all-star caliber guy in the coming years. Let alone if Roy, or Darren, or Tyler have another level to grow into.

eric1516
04-24-2011, 02:30 PM
Frank Vogel. The youngest head coach in the NBA, but a damn good one, and he knows video better than anyone, and that's where the great coaches are definied, is in the film room.

I completely agree with you.

Vogel seems to do a great job of analyzing the film and preparing the team for the necessary adjustments that must be made each game.

Thoreau87
04-24-2011, 02:37 PM
For those of you sitting on the fence about Frank: What is there not to like about him? Where are the red flags?...What is it that you think others will bring to the table that Frank eventually would not?

Not so much what there isn't to like. More so what a coach like Adelman with a proven track record of success, most notably his ability to develop young players and 2nd only to Pop in calling effective offensive sets when needed, could do for our team.

I'd be happy with Vogel (I love him and his potential) but Adelman is a better coach. You can't assume Vogel will eventually reach Rick's caliber. The future is not written.

joeyd
04-24-2011, 05:49 PM
I don't deny that Adelman is an excellent coach. But Frank brings youth to the table. Adelman does not. He is old, and older coaches are having more and more trouble these days minding the store with today's younger players. The average age of a coach is dropping, not getting higher, probably for this reason.

Pacerfan
04-24-2011, 05:56 PM
I love this TEAM and this COACH. I want them to learn and grow together. It will be much more satisfying when they finally reach the top together. Yes, Frank is not perfect as a coach, but he has shown an incredible ability to learn in half a season. Who says he can't learn the longer he coaches. I do agree it would help him to have a veteran assistant beside him on the bench, but this coaching staff has been nothing short of incredible. The players like and respect them and want to win for them.

The staff has a great balance between pushing the players, yet still reminding them it's the game they grew up playing and loving. This is very important with this young team. We have good guys on this team who want to do well and will work hard. They WANT to play for Frank. He understands them. Why take away their coach?

I Love P
04-24-2011, 06:02 PM
I saw Vogel about an hour and a half walking outside of Conseco with his wife. I shook his hand and said, "I'm so proud of these guys, thank you." He said, "Thanks, they play hard."

Unclebuck
04-24-2011, 06:09 PM
All things considered I would give Vogel an A in this series. I love how he has the team playing defense. He's asking the players to play a fairly complicated scheme and he has them playing very well

jdw
04-24-2011, 06:29 PM
Loooong time lurker, welcome to my first post. :D

With the team, front office and even ownership in a state of flux, why not give Coach Vogel a two-year deal, low-dollar with decent incentives?

He's shown an ability to get the best out of what you already have, find another scorer and see what happens.

There's a fair chance y'all have captured lightning in a bottle, isn't it worth taking a bit of a risk to find out?


Jeff

wintermute
04-24-2011, 06:42 PM
If the Pacers don't lock Vogel up, I think another team will give him a shot. I don't think we're the only ones impressed by Vogel's coaching job in the playoffs. And I could think of a number of teams that could use an inspirational coach who can get a young team to play hard.

Sandman21
04-24-2011, 07:40 PM
He's still learning on the fly, but man this guy is good at speaking with the media. Getting real close on being sold myself.

I really don't think his quotes are aimed at the media. I think they are aimed at US. The man literally called Tyler a beast after one of the back-to-backs against the Knicks.

And cmon the best quote of em all, "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hanbrough. Nobody!" If you think that was for the media, I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

joeyd
04-24-2011, 09:08 PM
I really don't think his quotes are aimed at the media. I think they are aimed at US. The man literally called Tyler a beast after one of the back-to-backs against the Knicks.

And cmon the best quote of em all, "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hanbrough. Nobody!" If you think that was for the media, I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

I have to think that his quotes are also aimed at the players. BTW, after one game, he reiterated that sentiment about Tyler, but he was asked about Foster when he'd also had a good game, and he said that "Nobody wants to play against Jeff Foster." Loved that.

gummy
04-24-2011, 10:49 PM
Here's a fun flashback for you - the postgame presser after Coach Vogel's third game as the head coach. I remember thinking "Wow, is this guy for real?" He was clearly not content to just coast or resigned to flounder in his new role and I thought that was impressive.

It has a whole new ring to it now that we are in the thick of a playoff series where the Pacers are playing well above expectations.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011/02/04/110204VogelPostgameflv-1547199/index.html

graphic-er
04-25-2011, 12:02 AM
I like Vogel but there are some things that the players keep doing that make me question is ability in the long run. IE. our players still do not box out on a consistent basis. Too many times this series and through out the season somebody comes out of nowhere to get an easy put back against our bigs who are out of position on the glass. The fact is our starting Front court is terrible at rebounding because they do not position themselves well for going after the rebound.

Also the way he lets this team revert to iso's at the end of the game. Its clearly a losing tactic for this team and the fact that he isn't running plays at the end of the game is baffling to me.

gummy
04-25-2011, 12:14 AM
Also the way he lets this team revert to iso's at the end of the game. Its clearly a losing tactic for this team and the fact that he isn't running plays at the end of the game is baffling to me.

I'm not sure why some folks keep saying the coaching staff isn't providing plays for the guys to run. Granger specifically said after the end of game three that they had 3-4 options drawn up for them and it was a combination of intense Bulls defense and youthful inexperience that led to the breakdown in execution and the crappy 3pt shot Granger ended up taking. I believe the relevant quote is in the post-game thread for game 3. A coach can draw up all the plays he wants but he can't get out there and run it himself, nor can he skip over the maturation process that leads to better end of game execution. The team seemed to do better out of timeouts post-JOB, which is part of what makes me think that this is mostly about nerves and learning to play against end of game playoff level defense. Eventually, with experience, the team can and will learn to execute better in crunch time.

The boxing out thing - I don't know about that. It's been a problem for years, so perhaps it is just a matter of old habits dying hard, something that can be corrected with continued emphasis. On the other hand, boxing out seems to sporadic in the NBA - it's not just us. I've never really understood why players seem to think it's OK to box out less once they hit the big league - perhaps it's over-reliance on athleticism, thinking you can out jumping your opponent is more important than good positioning...?

graphic-er
04-25-2011, 12:30 AM
I'm not sure why some folks keep saying the coaching staff isn't providing plays for the guys to run. Granger specifically said after the end of game three that they had 3-4 options drawn up for them and it was a combination of intense Bulls defense and youthful inexperience that led to the breakdown in execution and the crappy 3pt shot Granger ended up taking. I believe the relevant quote is in the post-game thread for game 3. A coach can draw up all the plays he wants but he can't get out there and run it himself, nor can he skip over the maturation process that leads to better end of game execution. The team seemed to do better out of timeouts post-JOB, which is part of what makes me think that this is mostly about nerves and learning to play against end of game playoff defense. Eventually the team can and will learn to execute better in crunch time.

The boxing out thing - I don't know about that. It's been a problem for years, so perhaps it is just a matter of old habits dying hard, something that can be corrected with continued emphasis. On the other hand, boxing out seems to sporadic in the NBA - it's not just us. I've never really understood why players seem to think it's OK to box out less once they hit the big league.

Honestly i'm not sure that Granger wasn't just talking out his *** there. Because we seen the play, it was ball screen hand-off to Danny. Then they ran the same thing once the bulls broke it with the double team. Options 2,3,4 were just standing down in the corner. Infact just the play before that DC went ISO and took a fade-away jumper over 2 defenders.

At what point is it a failure in coaching when something isn't done all year long?

gummy
04-25-2011, 12:38 AM
Honestly i'm not sure that Granger wasn't just talking out his *** there. Because we seen the play, it was ball screen hand-off to Danny. Then they ran the same thing once the bulls broke it with the double team. Options 2,3,4 were just standing down in the corner. Infact just the play before that DC went ISO and took a fade-away jumper over 2 defenders.

At what point is it a failure in coaching when something isn't done all year long?

If we start deciding that the players are lying in their post-game comments...I don't know where that speculation ends, everything is up for grabs. I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen - it's gamesmanship to some degree - but I just don't see it being a really fruitful path to wander down. I doubt that he'd just make up the 3-4 plays thing out of his arse - whether or not the Bulls actually took away the options or there was some panicking/trying to play the hero going such that they didn't even really try to run them...who knows.

At what point is it a failure in coaching when something isn't done all year long? I don't know. Clearly it's hard to quantify where coaching ends and talent and experience begins and how it all hangs together - if it were an exact science that was easy to figure out we wouldn't bicker about it so damn much. :) But the fact that the team seemed to gradually improve out of timeouts during the latter half of the season is part of what makes me hopeful that we can eventually learn to execute in close end of game situations too.

Sookie
04-25-2011, 12:53 AM
Honestly i'm not sure that Granger wasn't just talking out his *** there. Because we seen the play, it was ball screen hand-off to Danny. Then they ran the same thing once the bulls broke it with the double team. Options 2,3,4 were just standing down in the corner. Infact just the play before that DC went ISO and took a fade-away jumper over 2 defenders.

At what point is it a failure in coaching when something isn't done all year long?

I doubt it. Vogle's shown some good plays down the stretch, when well executed. (The Josh missed dunk/Granger follow being the latest example, to end the quarter)

Most end of game plays are not executed well. It's actually probably a pretty big reason that coaches tend to go with ISOs.

At the end of the day, TJ, AJ, and DC are our best ISO players (heh..) And the theory is pretty much "Well, whatever they come up with (mid range jump shot over taller defender) will be better than the play they screw up." It was JOB's philosophy, I don't know if it'll stay Vogel's philosophy. He's a much more optimistic guy. But I think for this season, he just kept the "end of quarter" plays the way they are. And tries to draw them up for the end of the game.

I think we'd have a much better time executing down the stretch with Josh and Dun on the floor. But we just can't have Dun on the floor because PG/Dahntay and Granger need to be. And without Dun, Josh isn't going to help execute the play that much (a little too much to ask) and he's not a scoring threat.

Because truly, a lineup of DC, PG or Dahntay, Granger, Hans, Hibbert..is probably the least likely of any lineup to execute a crunch time play.

Trader Joe
04-25-2011, 01:40 AM
Coaches get too much credit/blame for late game execution. It's mostly the players who have to make it happen.

Much more important to take a macro look when judging a coach, how do they adjust game to game, quarter to quarter, etc. Which Vogel has done exceedingly well.