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View Full Version : Please have somebody other than Granger shoot the last shot.



brichard
04-22-2011, 11:19 PM
I'm not here to demean Danny Granger. He's been a great player for us, and clearly our best player over a certain period of years. I just don't think I can stand to see us go to him one more game in a row for that last shot. The definition of insanity is to keep trying something different and expecting a different result.

In game one, Psycho T was unconscious and playing with a mis-match. And rather than keep going to what was working, we inexplicably changed things around. I'm not saying we ice him forever, but continuing to have him lose at the end is only going to make things more uncomfortable for him and put more pressure on him.

Anyway, the one coaching suggestion I would make to Vogel is to stick with the hot hand.

Will Galen
04-22-2011, 11:24 PM
I'm not here to demean Danny Granger.


Then why start the unphteenth thread complaining about him!

joeyd
04-22-2011, 11:32 PM
Come on...if he can get a good look, then why not let him take it? He needs a good look. That's all any player can hope for.

smj887
04-22-2011, 11:32 PM
The definition of insanity is to keep trying something different and expecting a different result

inĚsanĚiĚty
noun /inˈsanitē/ 
insanities, plural

The state of being seriously mentally ill; madness
- he suffered from bouts of insanity
- he attempted to plead insanity

Extreme foolishness or irrationality
- it might be pure insanity to take this loan
- the insanities of our time

McKeyFan
04-22-2011, 11:33 PM
Danny was clutch Thursday night. Collison messed up not getting him the ball when he flashed to the key wide open on the second to last possession.

On the last possession, I agree. They all know it's going to Danny (Even Deng, in an interview, said, "We knew Granger wouldn't pass it once he got it.") We need to get more creative with our end of game plays. Danny iso isn't working.

brichard
04-22-2011, 11:33 PM
Then why start the unphteenth thread complaining about him!

Hmmm... did you read my post? We've lost at least 2 games giving it to him in the last seconds of a ball game, and I don't want to watch it again. I'm not saying he sucks or ship him away. It is really a very objective post and more critical of Vogel's play design in the last seconds of a game than anything.

brichard
04-22-2011, 11:35 PM
inĚsanĚiĚty
noun /inˈsanitē/ 
insanities, plural

The state of being seriously mentally ill; madness
- he suffered from bouts of insanity
- he attempted to plead insanity

Extreme foolishness or irrationality
- it might be pure insanity to take this loan
- the insanities of our time

My definition is a famous quote from Albert Einstein.

brichard
04-22-2011, 11:42 PM
Come on...if he can get a good look, then why not let him take it? He needs a good look. That's all any player can hope for.

Well, and that is part of the problem, he isn't going to get a good look b/c everybody in the building knows he is going to shoot it. And with a very good defensive team, I'm not surprised that he hasn't been successful. There are certain guys who just seem to have ice in their veins when it is on the line (Horry, Billups, Reggie, etc.)

If you don't have that, you need to go with the hot hand or use a little deception to get somebody open. But I'm telling you, for the sake of Danny Granger and his confidence, having him miss one more shot like that isn't going to be great for him.

joeyd
04-22-2011, 11:52 PM
Well, and that is part of the problem, he isn't going to get a good look b/c everybody in the building knows he is going to shoot it.

It was the same on numerous occassions with Reggie, but his teammates learned how to free him up.

brichard
04-22-2011, 11:57 PM
It was the same on numerous occassions with Reggie, but his teammates learned how to free him up.

I don't think you can put Reggie Miller and Danny Granger in the same breath. Did everybody know Jordan or Bird were shooting the last shot? Sure, but they each had an uncanny ability to hit some pretty unbelievable shots with great consistency. Part of that is a numbers game, you shoot enough and you will win some games.

If Danny shows the ability to be as clutch as Reggie, I got no problem with giving it to him and everybody being aware. But that is a pretty rare group of players you are talking about.

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 12:01 AM
Who should be taking this final shot?

And you say we should stay with the hot hand, well Danny had the hot hand. He was the only guy all game that did. He had a great fourth quarter and kept us in the game.

brichard
04-23-2011, 12:04 AM
Who should be taking this final shot?

And you say we should stay with the hot hand, well Danny had the hot hand. He was the only guy all game that did. He had a great fourth quarter and kept us in the game.

Well I'm talking about a series of games. Danny gets the ball whether he has the hot hand or not.

Eleazar
04-23-2011, 12:15 AM
Who should be taking this final shot?

And you say we should stay with the hot hand, well Danny had the hot hand. He was the only guy all game that did. He had a great fourth quarter and kept us in the game.

Price, Dunleavy, George, Rush, hell I would put that line-up in plus Foster for a last second put back and we have a better shot at hitting a game winner or tieing shot than relying on Granger to get off a good shot. Make it so the other team has no idea who is going to shoot the ball.

BringJackBack
04-23-2011, 12:23 AM
Is that not what Danny did in game 2? He drove and kicked out to Price who, I believe, hit the three in crunch time.

BlueNGold
04-23-2011, 12:27 AM
On the last possession, I agree. They all know it's going to Danny (Even Deng, in an interview, said, "We knew Granger wouldn't pass it once he got it.") We need to get more creative with our end of game plays. Danny iso isn't working.

That's the problem. While Danny has played well in this series offensively we need him to give the ball up to get others involved. The team as a whole is not sharing the ball very much. Actually, the best offenses are when the players pass the ball crisply and don't care who gets the open shot. I wish it were that way with the Pacers. Until that happens, we are not going to be that good because we don't have anything close to a mega-star who can get his own shot anytime.

Scot Pollard
04-23-2011, 12:30 AM
I was thinking Jeff Foster should take the last shot.

presto123
04-23-2011, 12:34 AM
Easy. Mike Dunleavy. The inbounder can get the ball back because of the focus on Granger. And if Mike is open I'm more confident in him shooting than anybody.

joeyd
04-23-2011, 12:36 AM
I was thinking Jeff Foster should take the last shot.
Don't laugh. He actually hasn't been half bad with his jump shot lately; that is, when he doesn't have to shoot after getting the pass with about 1 second left.

Scot Pollard
04-23-2011, 12:40 AM
Don't laugh. He actually hasn't been half bad with his jump shot lately; that is, when he doesn't have to shoot after getting the pass with about 1 second left.

I loved that swish from last night.

I love his shooting form. It's like "ah **** it I can't seem to find anyone open so I'll take it"

Bball
04-23-2011, 12:41 AM
I don't really remember Reggie getting the ball and then dribbling or holding the ball looking for a shot. We ran Reggie off of picks and always seemed to get him the ball coming off a screen.

Yes, the other team knew Reggie was going to get the ball but they had to chase him while his teammates set solid screens and while Reggie used them expertly.

BlueNGold
04-23-2011, 12:43 AM
I was thinking Jeff Foster should take the last shot.

This is it.

Foster is shooting 67% from the floor during the series. He can do that because he's always wide open. This is precisely why you want to move the ball around. It doesn't make sense to have Foster shoot the ball until you look at the big picture. The game changes when you share the ball more...and is why teams like the Pistons were so good.

Scot Pollard
04-23-2011, 12:44 AM
Hey Bball and BlueNGold can you be in the mood for something else?

I remember Bball saying an admin had to do it.

Hicks removed that mood.

Gold
04-23-2011, 12:45 AM
More like, please have a play that works well enough for Granger to get open.

BlueNGold
04-23-2011, 12:46 AM
I don't really remember Reggie getting the ball and then dribbling or holding the ball looking for a shot. We ran Reggie off of picks and always seemed to get him the ball coming off a screen.

Yes, the other team knew Reggie was going to get the ball but they had to chase him while his teammates set solid screens and while Reggie used them expertly.

Yep, very different situation. Reggie had a rare talent with his ability to sprint and immediately put up a 30 foot shot. There was a strategy albeit a simple one. It did require a crisp pass and picks. It was not the same as an iso or one-on-one game...which is usually not effective.

BlueNGold
04-23-2011, 12:47 AM
Hey Bball and BlueNGold can you be in the mood for something else?

I remember Bball saying an admin had to do it.

Hicks removed that mood.

I've asked an admin once or twice to do it. I think they want me to keep it. That's fine. It's probably still my mood....:devil:

Scot Pollard
04-23-2011, 12:48 AM
Paul George is going to be a more clutch guy.

Give him the last shot.

Seriously.

BlueNGold
04-23-2011, 12:53 AM
Defense takes a lot of energy. So, when you don't move the ball, it allows the other 3 Bulls to rest who aren't guarding Danny. This makes them more effective on offense and more apt to get our guys in foul trouble. It allows them to get in better rebounding position. It allows them to cheat for a fast break. We simply become predictable. They become more confident and less frustrated or confused with defending us. All this stuff is lost when you just look at the silly stat line for a single player. The fact one player has a good stat line always seems to blind people to the truth.

Will Galen
04-23-2011, 03:26 AM
Hmmm... did you read my post? We've lost at least 2 games giving it to him in the last seconds of a ball game, and I don't want to watch it again. I'm not saying he sucks or ship him away. It is really a very objective post and more critical of Vogel's play design in the last seconds of a game than anything.

Yes I read it, and unlike some other posters with their complaints you were making sense, but there has already been several posts complaining about Granger so I jumped on you when you said you weren't here to demean Danny, but complained anyway.

I don't usually go off on good posters like that. I usually just delete the post and let it go . . . (shrug) . . . this time I didn't.

ilive4sports
04-23-2011, 04:01 AM
You guys want me to take this thread seriously when you are saying Jeff Foster should take the last shot?

Danny is our best shooter. Danny has hit clutch shots before. Danny was on fire in the fourth last night. Danny HAS to take the last shot last night. How about the team runs/executes better a play that gets Danny open? Can you imagine just giving Reggie the ball and telling him to hit the game winner? No, you set screens. And I mean actual screens, not that weak **** Tyler set.

I can't believe I even have to post this.

Shade
04-23-2011, 08:11 AM
Don't laugh. He actually hasn't been half bad with his jump shot lately; that is, when he doesn't have to shoot after getting the pass with about 1 second left.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WnboXiq33os" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

WhatCouldHaveBeen
04-23-2011, 10:38 AM
since paul george is our future why not let him take it? i mean he did spend time in the gym putting up shots after game 2 til like 3 AM...

Hell brandon rush can get a look...give me TJ Ford dribble drive to the basket...ANYONE but granger...And i like DG but man he doesn't look to create ANYTHING...he just wants to get a little space and fade away...what are you kobe? cmon DG

TinManJoshua
04-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Paul George is shooting 22% from the field. I know he's the future, but he's currently showing himself to not even be half the shooter Danny is. I have less faith in his jumper right now than I do Josh's.

PacerHound
04-23-2011, 10:53 AM
Well, and that is part of the problem, he isn't going to get a good look b/c everybody in the building knows he is going to shoot it. And with a very good defensive team, I'm not surprised that he hasn't been successful. There are certain guys who just seem to have ice in their veins when it is on the line (Horry, Billups, Reggie, etc.)

If you don't have that, you need to go with the hot hand or use a little deception to get somebody open. But I'm telling you, for the sake of Danny Granger and his confidence, having him miss one more shot like that isn't going to be great for him.

The board ought to listen to you on this but I would not hold my breath. Actually, this is not just a playoff issue. It is an every close game we have issue for as far back as I have been watching which is since Hanbrough came on board. (This post has NOTHING to do with Hansbrough.) Getting Granger the last shot will work once in a great while but like you say everybody and his brother in 10 states knows he is getting the ball so just make sure he has to shoot slop. It works nearly every time for the opposing team.

Slick Pinkham
04-23-2011, 12:51 PM
Did everybody know Jordan or Bird were shooting the last shot? Sure, but they each had an uncanny ability to hit some pretty unbelievable shots with great consistency.

They were also unselfish enough not to force up an awful shot when Steve Kerr, John Paxon, Jerry Sichting or Danny Ainge was unguarded, ready, willing, and able to make the shot. They knew when to play team ball, not hero ball. Vogel didn't draw up a heroball play, I'm pretty sure.

Brad8888
04-23-2011, 12:57 PM
For Game 3, I wanted Hansbrough to take the last shot to tie the game to get to overtime. It would have been unexpected, and Hansbrough seems to like pressure in my view. He also was open IIRC, and less likely to draw the contact that Danny did on the last shot despite it not being called.

ECKrueger
04-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Granger shooting the last shot is not the problem, it's just the shots he us shooting that are bad. I would prefer Danny shoot the last shot last night, unless the best shot he could get was that well contested 3.

Nature boii
04-23-2011, 01:23 PM
we need better screen to free up Danny like we use to do for Miller.....we would have not been in the playoff had it not been for Danny and he is working hard at both end of the court......why are you people so mean to Danny!!!! I believe in Pacers and Pacers basketball......Paul G will be the best player in the NBA in two years!!!

Anthem
04-23-2011, 01:30 PM
The only way we win this game is to not have it come down to the last second.

JEM
04-23-2011, 01:37 PM
Game 1 - I thought they could have found more ways to continue to feed Hansbrough. More Pick n Rolls or off ball screens ( which I wish they would use for Hansbrough anyway ).

Game 2 and 3 - When teams know Granger is going to get the ball its that much harder for him to succeed because he really cant split double teams or really beat anyone off the dribble all that often.

I wouldnt have minded seeing Dunleavy getting the last shot because he uses off ball screens better than anyone else on the team and he seems knock those catch and shoot shots down consistently.

In Game 3 after Collison missed Granger coming open he also missed and open Hansbrough on the baseline. He has to give it up to one of those guys IMO

Slick Pinkham
04-23-2011, 01:48 PM
Here's a radical idea: the person who is open should shoot the shot. If he is open and he can't make it, I'd question why he was where he was on the court, or why he was playing at all.