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View Full Version : Vogel's biggest mistake



90'sNBARocked
04-22-2011, 08:47 PM
Was not playing TJ Ford over Price

I know people like AJ and TJ is gone next year, but in the short time TJ got in the playoffs, I think he was better than what I saw in AJ. Aj is shoting 34% from the field and has a 1 assist to 2 turnover ratio. He is shooting 44% form 3, but I remeber as soon as DC went down in game 2, AJ looked uncomfrotable and immedaitely had 3 turn overs.

I think Vogel has done a very very good job in so many areas but I would have went with TJ and his experience over AJ , espically after game 1

I also think DJ, is really one of the few who can create off the drible and should have played more

NuffSaid
04-22-2011, 08:53 PM
By "DJ" do you mean Dahntey Jones?

If so, we're on the same page!

"I also think DJ, is really one of the few who can create off the drible and should have played more."

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->I've been saying as much since Game 2.

As for Vogel not playing TJ Ford more, I'm inclined to agree. I mean, here we're talking about the inexperience this team has, but we're not using every player who plays to the team's strengths, in this case I'm referring to quickness.

I'm conviced TJ and Dahntey can help far more than they would hurt. I'd give Ford some of Price's minutes and Dahntey some of Dunleavy's minutes. I'd certainly have Dahntey out there in crunch time just to have that extra body who can break down defenses and get inside. It's exactly how Rose has been killing us down the stretch every game.

90'sNBARocked
04-22-2011, 08:55 PM
yes sir!!

Did you know Dj was our second leading scorer with 11 points last night, in limited minutes

KingGeorge
04-22-2011, 08:56 PM
I don't think that was Vogel's mistake at all. I agree that T.J. was playing better than A.J. and controls the game better, but he wasn't in the physical condition.

It is also hard to be playing a guy in your rotation the second half of the season, and then tell him he is being replaced during game 2 or game 3.

Even if T.J. was able to get significant minutes in this series, I'm sure he would have had many flaws as well, and we would probably be asking why Price wasn't playing.

NuffSaid
04-22-2011, 09:09 PM
yes sir!!

Did you know Dj was our second leading scorer with 11 points last night, in limited minutes
I hadn't noticed that; hadn't looked at the box scores. He played just over 16 mins and went 5-9 FGA. Not bad!! I think we'll see Dahntey get more playing time tomorrow...I hope. I think he could be the key to getting the win.

90'sNBARocked
04-22-2011, 09:13 PM
I don't think that was Vogel's mistake at all. I agree that T.J. was playing better than A.J. and controls the game better, but he wasn't in the physical condition.

It is also hard to be playing a guy in your rotation the second half of the season, and then tell him he is being replaced during game 2 or game 3.

Even if T.J. was able to get significant minutes in this series, I'm sure he would have had many flaws as well, and we would probably be asking why Price wasn't playing.

I understand the conditoioning aspect but Ford was reportedly in good shape and he got zero minutes in game 3

I know where nitpicking and its hard to know if those changes would have led to a victory or two, but I think they would have made a difference

Kemo
04-22-2011, 09:45 PM
I agree in the fact I believe TJ could have REALLY helped us out the last few games.. As well as DJ in a roleplayer position..

I will say so far from this series .. You woulda thought we were the top 2 defensive teams by the defensive clinic that went on thus far..

Hoop
04-22-2011, 09:53 PM
TJ has played himself to were he belongs, ever single damn year he's been here.

rock747
04-22-2011, 10:24 PM
I too think we may have prematurely given up on TJ as the back up. He really didn't even get a shot once Vogel took over.

Sookie
04-22-2011, 10:56 PM
We got into the playoffs playing AJ price as the backup

We were way out with TJ as the backup.

Our record, for the past two years, is significantly better (like, 30 games better) When Price plays as to when TJ plays. (And before anyone mutters O'brien, this was even more true last season than this season)

TJ's experience wasn't helping us win games in the regular season, why would it have been any different in the post season? Then, lets add in that we are talking about the backup point guard position. And the team has already developed chemistry with Price, and TJ has pretty much had the season off since February.

The one time I would have used TJ instead of AJ was in those last three minutes of the second quarter. And it's only looking back on it. There was no way for Vogel to know that AJ was going to freak out the way he did. But perhaps if it had been TJ that went in the game, the pressure would have sunk in and Price would have calmed down for the second half. But even still, AJ was great in the fourth quarter.

Experience for our younger guys was much more important anyway.

Anyway, Dahntay and AJ are somewhat of a nasty pairing offensively. Dahntay and TJ would have just been unbearable to watch. I think we should go back to Rush, honestly. I like that Dahntay is physical, but Rush is just as good of a defender, and plays within the offense.

Anyway, it's really amazing to me how Price has become the whipping boy. Really, a backup point guard. And he's played well, with the exception of last game and a panicked stretch in the second game. That's still equal or better than Hansbrough, McRoberts, Hibbert, Dun, and Brandon.

(and I'm not advocating that any of them become the whipping boys.) This team is young, they've all had some really really good moments, and they have been competitive with the Bulls, to the point that personally, I'm proud of them, mistakes and all. Even if TJ buys them a game in the playoffs (extremely EXTREMELY unlikely) he's not coming back, it was more important to give Price the experience anyway.

ilive4sports
04-22-2011, 11:05 PM
Just wondering, do you remember how TJ Ford plays basketball?

graphic-er
04-22-2011, 11:18 PM
Just wondering, do you remember how TJ Ford plays basketball?

Honestly, in Vogel's system, TJ never played. You remember how TJ played in JOB's system which had completely destroyed the PG position on our team. It did not matter who started at point in that system, they were doomed to look terrible.

I really think TJ would have been quite successful in Vogel's system. I get it though, they wanted the youth movement.

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 11:22 PM
Vogel's mistake was to have Dunleavy on Deng and DC on Korver.

ilive4sports
04-22-2011, 11:53 PM
Honestly, in Vogel's system, TJ never played. You remember how TJ played in JOB's system which had completely destroyed the PG position on our team. It did not matter who started at point in that system, they were doomed to look terrible.

I really think TJ would have been quite successful in Vogel's system. I get it though, they wanted the youth movement.

Except TJ always played that way. TJ never was a chucker under JOB, in fact he was one of the guys that just did what TJ did. He always got penetration, but he never could finish. He would jump up in the air and just miss a lay up or turn it over.

And Dunleavy played 14 minutes. Deng did a lot of damage when Dunleavy was on the bench. He had that one play where he broke Dunleavy's ankles, but most of Deng's damage was already done. And I'm gonna assume by Lance you mean AJ or DC. Who was gonna guard Korver? We needed PG and Jones on Rose and we needed a point guard in the game. Vogel had his hands tied.

BornReady
04-23-2011, 12:07 AM
to be fair, I did like TJ before he was a Pacer... :D

pizza guy
04-23-2011, 01:44 AM
Bringing TJ off the bench, totally cold, for any kind of extended minutes would be awful. You can't sit a guy for half of the season and then expect him to play well when he's suddenly thrown into the rotation again.

I thought TJ looked better than Price in the time they split in Game 2, but you've got to consider the chemistry of the guys who have played together, and fought their way into the playoffs, and know that TJ wouldn't be on the same page as the rest of them right away.

What I know is that I'm really glad DC was able to come back for Game 3, because a PG rotation of Price/TJ would have equaled a blowout.

Hicks
04-23-2011, 01:46 AM
Vogel's mistake was to have Dunleavy on Deng and DC on Korver.

It would be a disaster if DC is asked to guard Deng.

90'sNBARocked
04-23-2011, 10:12 AM
Ok so for the Price lovers its ok that Price averages more turnovers than assists , yet he is a "PG"

or that he shots 34% from the field and masks as a "SG"?

TJ played much better in the limited time he had in the playoffs. TJ is a veteran, and I guarantee he would have played better

Some people kill me here when they state things like they are an absolute fact. Like "TJ sucks, " or AJ is better" all subjective

I do not dislike AJ as a person one bit, and respect what he has overcame

I just hope he is not here next year, he is a very very streaky undersized sg, with more turnovers than assists. Really players like AJ are a dime a dozen and I think people are blinded because he is a Pacer

HAte me for saying this , but he is a below average NBA player, lucky to be here

Mark
04-23-2011, 11:07 AM
Come on guys! You remeber when TJ hit that really long shot!

90'sNBARocked
04-23-2011, 11:54 AM
Bringing TJ off the bench, totally cold, for any kind of extended minutes would be awful. You can't sit a guy for half of the season and then expect him to play well when he's suddenly thrown into the rotation again.

I thought TJ looked better than Price in the time they split in Game 2, but you've got to consider the chemistry of the guys who have played together, and fought their way into the playoffs, and know that TJ wouldn't be on the same page as the rest of them right away.

What I know is that I'm really glad DC was able to come back for Game 3, because a PG rotation of Price/TJ would have equaled a blowout.

They did just that in game 2 , and I thought he played extreemly well, all things considered