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vnzla81
04-22-2011, 06:41 AM
Is true neither Hibbert or Tyler got the ball at the right place.


http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/04/22/hibbert-wants-the-ball-in-a-better-position-and-the-4th-qtr-does-the-pacers-in-again/




Hibbert wants the ball in a better position

THE `BURBS – Roy Hibbert is usually his worst critic when it comes to his play.

But Hibbert changed things up – to the surprise of some media members – when he talked about his 3-of-12 performance against the Bulls in Game 3.

“I’m not getting (the ball) where I want it,” he said. “I don’t want to shoot jump shots. I want to get it in the paint, get it on the block. We’re running other stuff.”

Hibbert’s comments made me go back and look at the play sheet.

The big fella took nine shots from within 10 feet of the basket.

Hibbert was asked about some of the shots he missed closed to the basket.

That’s when his tone changed.

“I need to get in a rhythm,” Hibbert said. “It’s on me.”

Hibbert has a right to be upset because he hasn’t had a memorable series. There were a couple times Thursday where you could tell he was frustrated because he wasn’t getting touches.

It didn’t help that he spent most of the game in foul trouble.

Hibbert’s shooting 38 percent (10-of-26) from the field.

The Pacers have to get something out of Hibbert in the post if they expect to extend the series to a Game 5.

The same can be said about Tyler Hansbrough.

He went from dominating Carlos Boozer in Game 1 to now being a non-factor.

Hansbrough is 5-of-24 from the field in the past two games.

I’m surprised Frank Vogel stuck with him instead of giving Josh McRoberts more minutes on Thursday.

bellisimo
04-22-2011, 06:46 AM
The amount of bunnies Hibbert misses saddens me.

Its also not like Hibbert is able to get good positioning for his teammates to give him the ball - the reason he is getting the ball where he is getting is cause he isn't able to establish a down low presence...just feels like he doesnt have the body strength to do it.

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 07:48 AM
He has absolutely nothing to complain about in game #3. The Pacers repeatedly got him the ball again ad again in good position, and he did not deliver. Pacers did a lot of nice things in order to get the ball to him down low. These are the playoffs, it is really hard to get a post player the ball against playoff defense, so I don't know what Roy expects, but he's not getting a layup everytime

BRushWithDeath
04-22-2011, 07:51 AM
Is true neither Hibbert or Tyler got the ball at the right place.

Neither of those assessments is true.

Both players got the ball repeatedly in the correct place. Neither player could convert those opportunities.

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 07:56 AM
If you watch the playoffs it is often times imposible to get a post player the ball in good position, the defense does everything they can to deny that good position, because that is the most important thing when guarding a post player

Dr. Hibbert
04-22-2011, 08:14 AM
He has absolutely nothing to complain about in game #3. The Pacers repeatedly got him the ball again ad again in good position, and he did not deliver. Pacers did a lot of nice things in order to get the ball to him down low. These are the playoffs, it is really hard to get a post player the ball against playoff defense, so I don't know what Roy expects, but he's not getting a layup everytime

This. Hibbert was tough defensively, I thought, but he has no right to complain about what happened on offense.

He really needs to toughen up his offensive game this summer, to say the least. There are times where he looks skillful, but they're too far apart. Most of the time, he looks like the softest 7-footer in the league when he gets within a foot of the rim.

Mackey_Rose
04-22-2011, 08:38 AM
Roy has played roughly one good quarter in this series. The first one. Since then, he's been a huge disappointment.

The big guy has come up small.

OakMoses
04-22-2011, 09:00 AM
The negative impression that Hibbert has made during this series is, sadly, equaling or surpassing the positive impressions made by George and Vogel.

graphic-er
04-22-2011, 09:03 AM
I agree with most of the comments here, but one thing for sure is that Pacer are not trying to establish an inside out game. Pacers usually get several easy points off of posting up Hibbert and having the PG or Dunleavy cut to the basket and Hibbert gives them nice feed for the layup. They dont' do that right now. Maybe Chicago's defense is just too good. But i'm just saying they aren't running plays through Roy.

Aw Heck
04-22-2011, 09:22 AM
The Pacers really need an All-Star level post player (yeah, who doesn't?) in order for Roy Hibbert or Tyler Hansbrough to succeed in the starting lineup.

I'm not sure how they acquire one, realistically.

In my dream, Dwight Howard demands a trade to the Pacers.

beast23
04-22-2011, 09:49 AM
The amount of bunnies Hibbert misses saddens me.

Its also not like Hibbert is able to get good positioning for his teammates to give him the ball - the reason he is getting the ball where he is getting is cause he isn't able to establish a down low presence...just feels like he doesnt have the body strength to do it.
There is one thing Hibbert has not learned that Hansbrough has learned. When near the rim, do NOT lay the ball off of the glass, go strong to the rim and attempt to dunk it. Leave nothing to chance. Go up strong, brace yourself for contact and be physical. You won't get fouls called on you for pushing off with the left hand/arm if you have the ball in two hands with the intent of throwing it down.

I disagree slightly about Hibbert's positioning. I think he is able to get to where he needs to be in order to receive the ball. Unfortunately, when one talks about a "window of opportunity", this fits Hibbert to a "T". He has a short window of opportunity for receiving the ball where he wants it/needs it... if the PG is not in position to take advantage of that window, it is soon lost because Hibbert cannot hold that position for very long. He gets position, but despite his length, he does not have the strength to hold it.

So, personally I think Hibbert needs additional strength to be able to better fight for position. And, I think he needs "a pair" to be willing to escalate his game physically once he does get the ball in good position.

jcouts
04-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Now I want to sign Nene even more this offseason...

Roy got the ball several times right where he wanted it and either didn't convert or rushed the opportunity.

Shut up Roy and get your lanky behind on the hipsled in the weight room. You'd be amazed at what a little leg strength can do to help this situation.

joeyd
04-22-2011, 09:54 AM
When Hibbert gets the ball in a "better position" he promptly picks up an offensive foul. I think he had two last night. Just as with Tyler, the Bulls adjusted quickly to Roy, not that much adjusting was necessary.

BillS
04-22-2011, 09:59 AM
I really want Roy to learn how to go up quick for a decisive move to the basket when he gets the ball. His lack of offense comes from taking to long to get to the rim, and defenses find that VERY easy to counter - especially when the 7'2" big man tosses up a little bunny jumper instead of crashing up to the rim for a jam.

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 10:07 AM
The Pacers really need an All-Star level post player (yeah, who doesn't?) in order for Roy Hibbert or Tyler Hansbrough to succeed in the starting lineup.

I'm not sure how they acquire one, realistically.

In my dream, Dwight Howard demands a trade to the Pacers.

DH wouldn't get the ball with the point guards we have, they suck at feeding the post.

thewholefnshow31
04-22-2011, 10:17 AM
Roy has played roughly one good quarter in this series. The first one. Since then, he's been a huge disappointment.

The big guy has come up small.

Indeed.

When you are missing gimmies and playing like the softest 7 footer in the NBA you do not have room to talk about where you are getting the ball.

The guy has been a huge disappointment this season. He has a long way to go this offseason.

righteouscool
04-22-2011, 11:36 AM
DH wouldn't get the ball with the point guards we have, they suck at feeding the post.

I don't know what you're watching. George and Rush are both very good at feeding the post. DC would be better with Howard, but I guess everyone would.

PR07
04-22-2011, 11:40 AM
He has to get stronger. Part of it may be the play calling, but part of it is the responsibility of the big to establish himself in the low block. Right now, Roy isn't strong enough to get good position down low consistently.

Mackey_Rose
04-22-2011, 11:41 AM
DH wouldn't get the ball with the point guards we have, they suck at feeding the post.

They aren't great, but Hibbert is just really bad about keeping position. His legs are way too weak, and he doesn't get low enough.

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 11:42 AM
I don't know what you're watching. George and Rush are both very good at feeding the post. DC would be better with Howard, but I guess everyone would.

There is a reason why they use Josh,PG,Rush and Mike to feed the post, Because our points guards can't do that

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 11:44 AM
They aren't great, but Hibbert is just really bad about keeping position. His legs are way too weak, and he doesn't get low enough.

I gree with this, the problem is that a lot of times when Roy is inside the paint he can only be there for few seconds(3sec rule) and our point guards fail to see this.

vapacersfan
04-22-2011, 11:45 AM
They aren't great, but Hibbert is just really bad about keeping position. His legs are way too weak, and he doesn't get low enough.

I agree, and I also agree sometimes the guards miss him getting position and so he [obviously] loses said advantage.

That said, no excuse for him to miss all the bunnies he has this series

Brad8888
04-22-2011, 12:11 PM
Roy was right when he got frustrated about two or three weeks into the season after teams made the adjustment to get physical with him and body up to throw him out of position and affect the balance on his shots. He said at that time that he needed to put 20 lbs back on, and I could not agree more. More strength and weight, coupled with a full summer with an actual big man coach (not just a week with Walton) working on footwork and positioning coupled with teaching him the technique of posting and re-posting to get deeper position could make Roy into a monster in the low post.

Would the extra weight be harmful to his long term health by increasing the stress on his feet and knees? Yes, I think that would probably happen. However, in the interim, he would be fearsome offensively, and more effective as a rebounder who can hold his position in traffic on both ends of the floor.

Sparhawk
04-22-2011, 02:29 PM
I've never seen a guy so tall who plays like he's so short. Is he afraid of getting blocked. A few of those shots in the game were at the basket. He just needs to dunk the ***** out of the ball instead of trying to bank it or lay it up. Get that weak crap out of here.

Dr. Hibbert
04-22-2011, 02:42 PM
The one area where I feel bad for Roy, or that isn't so much his fault...

Jim O'Brien: Hey, you need to lose weight and get lighter to run the court this offseason. Fatty McFatFat.

Roy: Okay.

[loses weight]

Jim O'Brien: You soft piece of ****. Why don't you weigh more? Now you're getting tossed around like my granddaughter in a moon bounce. Except she has a better shot at Most Improved Player than you do. Now, please, go die in a fire.

pacer4ever
04-22-2011, 02:44 PM
Roy has played roughly one good quarter in this series. The first one. Since then, he's been a huge disappointment.

The big guy has come up small.

If Hibbert shows up it's 2-1 us at worst

Midcoasted
04-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Let's not jump the gun on Hibbert. He is a 24 year old center in his first playoff series against the best post defense in the NBA. He also lost all this weight this past summer to fit JOBs "system" and it clearly has hurt his post game. JOB literally was ruining our young talent.

I expect Frank Vogel to be rehired and still preaching smashmouth basketball, and hopefully Hibbert will get stronger this summer. Hopefully someone will tell the big fella to bulk up with health food and build lean muscle mass and don't go the junk food route many NBA players go. Junk food will hinder your game and probably cause you to get hurt. Also he should stay away from suppliments. Milk, vegetable juice, fruits (not fruit juice), vegetables, lean meats, and whole grains and lots of water can strengthen anyone I believe.

Hopefully Hibbert choses the path of health and gains strength and proves to be our center before his 26th birthday. I just hope he can maintain his speed and get strong enough to get better position in the post. I think he doesn't need to get that much stronger and has progressed in that area since JOB got canned. It's just to little to late against the Bulls. If Vogel was the coach all last summer we wouldn't be in this spot. We would probably be knocking off the Hawks or the Magic lol.

PR07
04-22-2011, 03:21 PM
I don't mind that Roy lost some of his "baby fat", but what he needs to do it put on some good weight, the muscle type. For a guy so big in frame, he gets pushed around way too much.

Scot Pollard
04-22-2011, 03:44 PM
He acts like a chicken sometimes.

I wish he was as aggressive as Noah. Maybe not swing his elbows around nearly about to break someone's nose, but I want him to play with size and get fouled and dunk with authority.

I don't want him to be like a goofy Zydrunas Ilgauskas, but be like a tough Dwight Howard type.

Since86
04-22-2011, 03:47 PM
Did Hibbert even take a jumpshot last night? I honestly can't remember one.

People were calling him a "mental midget" during the whole JOb arguments, which I thought was harsh and uncalled for. I do agree, however, that mental toughness isn't a strength of Roy.

After game 2 the camera panned to Roy sitting on the bench, and he had his elbow on his knee with a towel in his hand, and his head resting on his wrist. He just had this look on his face like his GF just broke up with him right after he proposed or something.

I think it's good to show emotions, and it's good that losing bothers him. But it shouldn't make him sad, IMHO. It should make him pissed off. That's competitive drive. Take that emotion of anger, and use it as motivation to work harder. He looked defeated, he looked lost.

Roy, you need to take some responsbility for your play and not start handing out excuses on why you're not getting your job done. You shot 3-12. You shouldn't be getting the ball anymore than that if you're only going to hit 3 of your attempts.

If you want the ball in better position, THEN GET YOUR BIG *** IN BETTER POSITION!!!!!

The team can't set you up and get you the ball where you want it, just because you want it there. You've got to take the initiative and get position. If you don't get the ball, yell for it on the floor. If they still don't get you the ball, get in their face. If they still don't get you the ball, then say it publically.

ilive4sports
04-22-2011, 04:26 PM
Roy was in great position with the ball many times and just missed the shot. What more does he want that a good look from two feet away from the basket?

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 04:57 PM
I am at a loss to explain why some of you want him to gain weight, he is already slow and heavy footed enough and if he gains weith even all muscle he'll get even slower and more heavy-footed.

I would consider trading him, see what we could get.

troyc11a
04-22-2011, 05:00 PM
Roy needs to shut up and start making shots. He is missing shots over a shorter defender who he should attack.
He is getting better and is the most likeable player on the team. But the bottom line is he is soft and that will not change. It is in his DNA and players do not all of a sudden get tough.
If he adds weight he will just be a bigger, slower version of the softie he is now. If he gains weight he will be in contant foul trouble and would need to be benched or traded!

troyc11a
04-22-2011, 05:02 PM
He acts like a chicken sometimes.

I wish he was as aggressive as Noah. Maybe not swing his elbows around nearly about to break someone's nose, but I want him to play with size and get fouled and dunk with authority.

I don't want him to be like a goofy Zydrunas Ilgauskas, but be like a tough Dwight Howard type.

If Roy was half as tough as Noah he would be an all-star! Shoot, if we was half as tough as Jeff Foster he would be an all-star!

pacer4ever
04-22-2011, 05:08 PM
I am at a loss to explain why some of you want him to gain weight, he is already slow and heavy footed enough and if he gains weith even all muscle he'll get even slower and more heavy-footed.

I would consider trading him, see what we could get.

I have wanted to trade him since forever he isnt menatly or physically strong enoght to play at a high level on a regular basis. My off season plan if im the gm would be expolre trades for Danny and Roy. Obviously I wouldnt trade them for just any deal but if a decent deal came around I would do it.

Peck
04-22-2011, 05:08 PM
I am at a loss to explain why some of you want him to gain weight, he is already slow and heavy footed enough and if he gains weith even all muscle he'll get even slower and more heavy-footed.

I would consider trading him, see what we could get.

What do you have in mind?

Hicks
04-22-2011, 05:11 PM
Can't complain about touches when you can't finish around the rim.

With that said, despite Roy's issues, I doubt a better center is going to be available in the next several years.

We're going to have to hope he keeps working his *** off to get better, sees the fruits of his labor, and that we get a better power foward to start next to him.

I'm fine with upgrading (and I'm also happy to keep him), but I just don't see how that's going to happen.

BillS
04-22-2011, 05:22 PM
Hibbert was definitely better once he lost the weight, he just had another weakness that defenses exploit, and that is his lack of aggressiveness to get up to the rim to finish. Some of that is muscle in his lower body, but most of it is mental.

Roy losing the weight is one of the main reasons his fouls went way down this year. This was NOT some negative advice from an idiot who didn't know better - in fact, weren't people saying at the beginning of the year that the advice was good AND it took a lot of work on Roy's part individually over the summer to make it happen, so it couldn't possibly have been from the coach?

dohman
04-22-2011, 05:22 PM
Where you get the ball is crucial. When you get the ball is crucial. The post play is very dependent on which side your man is guarding you and where you can get the ball at. Roy has been forcing the issue the past 2 games trying to get his shots up from angles and positions he normally does not get them from.

He has plenty of bunnies at the rim that just go in and out. He is not taking bad shots. His touch is simply just a hair off. He is a playoff rookie. You can say trade him all you want but there is not way to pratice the physical play of the playoffs. Roy has been eating up 3 years of nba regular season basketball. With a guy on your back shoving you out of position and every time you get a good shot you get called for a offensive foul I could see why he would be frustrated. He is so close to dominating noah. Its not other way around. dissect hibberts shots and you will see that once he gets that playoff touch down around the rim he will be back up at 15 ppg.

This playoff series is the best thing that could of happened to hibbert. You better believe he will come back from this stronger. He is very eager and willing to learn. Vogel has said he is the most coachable player he has.

Another thing I wish he would get away from before these playoffs games is those damn 5 hour energys. The camera showed him drinking one RIGHT BEFORE tip. IF YOUR READING THIS ROY take your shot before shoot around. Get yourself going with that energy shot in you. This goes back to that touch. The inside game is all about a minute flick of the wrist. Your body already has adrenalin going during the game that throws your shot off there is no reason to add increased energy or jitters throw it off that much more. I am sure its great for his defense and court awareness. But I have seen the effects first hand from guys that are shooters drink them before game. They are instantly long.

BillS
04-22-2011, 05:24 PM
The inside game is all about a minute flick of the wrist.

Or, perhaps, about playing 7'2" tall and doing the jump necessary to jam the ball into the hoop instead of trying to finesse it in every time.

He gets the ball in plenty of time to take a step on the defender, he just holds until the double comes before moving...

dohman
04-22-2011, 05:27 PM
Or, perhaps, about playing 7'2" tall and doing the jump necessary to jam the ball into the hoop instead of trying to finesse it in every time.

He gets the ball in plenty of time to take a step on the defender, he just holds until the double comes before moving...

He is not athletic enough to do that. From the angles and positions he is in he would need about another 5 inches of vertical. Roy is a throwback player. His game resembles the game of the past. The desire and height are there, he is just going to take more time to get his footwork and go to moves perfected.

gummy
04-22-2011, 07:26 PM
Love ya Roy, but if you want the ball in a better position you're going to need to actually hold your position for more than a fraction of a second and/or make your moves quicker.

Trophy
04-22-2011, 08:05 PM
I do like the tough mindset of Kendrick Perkins.

I just wish Roy had that mindset and the body and being 7-2, that would be huge.

I like Marc Gasol too. He has a big body and is aggressive.

AesopRockOn
04-22-2011, 09:05 PM
If you guys haven't been reading 8p9s (http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/) during this series, I highly suggest you do before the series ends.


Here’s Hibbert’s shot chart from last night’s game.

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/hibbert0421.jpg

Look, Hibbert did not get frozen out by his teammates, and the game plan didn’t go away from him. His usage rate was just under 30%, which is extremely high. He had opportunities, and he failed to convert them. Alex Yovanovich (http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2011/04/why-to-feel-good-about-80-percent-of-the-pacers-starters/) highlighted the concerns that Roy’s play has raised more completely than I can here, but at this point, Hibbert does not appear to be built for the playoffs.


In a series full of Pacer surprises – mostly pleasant – Roy’s play has probably been the only thing besides Derrick Rose’s ability to get to the line that has gone according to what I expected. Physically, he is just not strong enough to get and hold position. As a result, he does a very poor job of “presenting himself” for the entry pass.


Mentally…well, I have opinions that I’m grossly unqualified to state, but we’ll leave those out. One thing that I think most will agree from watching him is that he’s incredibly indecisive. Almost every time he gets the ball in the post, it’s as if he’s funneling requests for decisions through a bloated and overworked bureaucracy. On more than one occasion last night, he received the ball on the block -unguarded – after getting a baseline screen, then waited for the defense to come to him before he made any kind of move.

If you cannot make a decision, one will be made for you – and you will rarely like it.


Like others have said, the biggest disappointment of the playoffs. Larry should have sold high.

Trophy
04-22-2011, 09:08 PM
Roy started the beginning of Game 1 off really well and it put us in control.

When he's doing well, we're a dangerous team and we'll win.

Hicks
04-23-2011, 01:54 AM
Larry should have sold high.

Oh my God. Really? As if there was this clear 'peak' for Roy that the majority would agree upon that was the best Roy was ever going to be in his career. The kid is a 3rd year player. 'Sell high' doesn't even apply to him yet!

AesopRockOn
04-23-2011, 05:55 AM
Oh my God. Really? As if there was this clear 'peak' for Roy that the majority would agree upon that was the best Roy was ever going to be in his career. The kid is a 3rd year player. 'Sell high' doesn't even apply to him yet!

I really don't want to run afoul of the Hibbert fans. Hell, I'd consider myself one, mostly. But to say that his trade value at the end of 2010 was certainly not the highest it ever will be is off-base. We have Roy under contract for next season; you could argue that as an expiring rookie deal, he's more valuable then. Fine. That's nit picking. Is he worth resigning? For how much? How can trading him not be an option moving forward?

Roy is not untouchable. He's going to have the same problems (fatigue issues, body issues, mental issues?) unless drastic things take place. We'd love to see Roy get much stronger while staying mobile and keep an even keel emotionally. We'd love to see Brandon Rush show that he gives a ****. We'd love it if Lance Stephenson had a different brain. But this is the NBA and you look at the history and play the percentages. 'Sell high' must always be an option, even if it's a 4th or 5th option in deciding a player's status in a franchise.

But I don't want to talk about this. Let's send this series back to Chicago!