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View Full Version : Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.



Foul on Smits
04-21-2011, 09:40 PM
You can't let aj price do what he's done all 3 games. You cannot let this guy suck the life and every ounce of momentum out of your team like that. You have a veteran pg on the bench that actually runs plays and is much quicker and won't pound the ball for 24 seconds. I'm sorry, you cannot be the coach if you can't see this. You just can't. Price has killed this team.

granger33
04-21-2011, 09:48 PM
Someone delete this thread

Foul on Smits
04-21-2011, 09:50 PM
Uhh

granger33
04-21-2011, 09:52 PM
We are all upset about the loss. Don't blame it on Vogel. His the reason why we are in the playoffs.

Anthem
04-21-2011, 09:52 PM
Vogel's a good coach, and he's been sticking with the rotation that got him here. AJ's had some good minutes this series. I would have liked to see TJ Ford too, but I understand why he made that call.

Foul on Smits
04-21-2011, 09:54 PM
Aj price has killed any momentum this team has had.

Dr. Hibbert
04-21-2011, 09:55 PM
Good coach. Innovative, inspirational, young. Cannot draw up final offensive possessions to save his life. That's his main flaw in my book, and easily cured by good assistants.

d_c
04-21-2011, 10:00 PM
Good coach. Innovative, inspirational, young. Cannot draw up final offensive possessions to save his life. That's his main flaw in my book, and easily cured by good assistants.

It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.

jcouts
04-21-2011, 10:00 PM
I'm not going to say that Frank isn't a good coach...but I do agree (I've now said this in three threads now) that Price is a big reason why we haven't won Games 2 and 3.

d_c
04-21-2011, 10:02 PM
JMO, but it seems this board is holding their coach to a far, far higher standard than the opposition's coach.

He did an unbelievable job, and in some ways, outcoached the guy who will probably win COY.

beast23
04-21-2011, 10:03 PM
Price is not the problem. For the most part, we played this game possession by possession and put a lot of emphasis on getting the most out of every single possession.

There were a few possessions that did not seem to include a good play. I will admit that Price was involved in a couple of those. I simply do not like quarter-ending plays that a ruled by a guard pounding the ball to consume the rest of the clock, only to call his own number in attempting to get the last shot. I've seen our PGs guilty of this the entire season. If you want to fault Price for this, then so be it. But it's not just Price, all of our PGs do the same thing.

But Vogel. I think he has more than earned the removal of the word "interim". It's just a question of whether the Pacers could luck into landing a top-tier coach for next season. If not, then don't look elsewhere; Vogel is your man.

Kid Minneapolis
04-21-2011, 10:03 PM
Disagree with this thread title. Knee-jerk reaction.

imawhat
04-21-2011, 10:05 PM
The only Vogel hasn't done well in this series is win. He's been absolutely amazing. Chicago is far superior in talent and has played well every game and we STILL have/had a chance to be up 3-0.

After tonight's game, I see no reason he shouldn't get the job.

Jon Theodore
04-21-2011, 10:05 PM
The bulls are a much better team than us...end of story. We have played beyond our talent level this entire series. To me when a team plays beyond their talent level...that is the sign of a good coach.

Not saying we are not talented...because we are. But we are NOT Bulls level talented.

Dr. Hibbert
04-21-2011, 10:07 PM
It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.

Never said he did. But this has been a problem for the Pacers for a while. Not a first-time occurrence.

d_c
04-21-2011, 10:08 PM
The bulls are a much better team than us...end of story. We have played beyond our talent level this entire series. To me when a team plays beyond their talent level...that is the sign of a good coach.

Not saying we are not talented...because we are. But we are NOT Bulls level talented.

Vogel did a great job with what he had.

He employed a bunch of strategies and personnel that Thibodeau simply didn't see coming. The Bulls almost looked unprepared. He took some chances and went deep into his bench, which is the opposite of what coaches normally do in the playoffs. Took guts to do that. Credit to him for that.

righteouscool
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.

And he would of been out coached if Rose was guarded by George. No telling if Rose would of hit it over George, but you go with what has bothered Rose the most and that is George.

I like Vogel as a coach, I'm just annoyed by that defensive play. Why would you put Jones on Rose? You can put Rush on Korver just as easily.

Sookie
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
Price is not the problem. For the most part, we played this game possession by possession and put a lot of emphasis on getting the most out of every single possession.

There were a few possessions that did not seem to include a good play. I will admit that Price was involved in a couple of those. I simply do not like quarter-ending plays that a ruled by a guard pounding the ball to consume the rest of the clock, only to call his own number in attempting to get the last shot. I've seen our PGs guilty of this the entire season. If you want to fault Price for this, then so be it. But it's not just Price, all of our PGs do the same thing.

Perhaps that's what Vogel wants at the end of the quarter. They do it so much (every time..) That you'd think, if he didn't want it, then he would have had them stop doing it. I hate ISOs.

AJ needs to get back to a PG mentality. He was never this shot happy, and who knows why he's doing it now. (as in last two seasons. Granted, apparently you were yelled at and yanked out if you didn't shoot quickly with O'brien..) Perhaps that's what his role is, but he was always such a good floor general, that it would be a shame if it is what his role has become.

That said, a backup point guard does not make or break you. And despite the missed shots, he certainly didn't hurt the team tonight in terms of "momentum" both times he was in our team went on a run.

d_c
04-21-2011, 10:11 PM
Never said he did. But this has been a problem for the Pacers for a while. Not a first-time occurrence.

And it's not an unusual occurrence for teams that don't have the go to difference maker down the stretch.

Defenses clamp down on clutch possessions, no matter who you play against. The guys who can make the game winning plays in those situations are the true superstars.

Powww
04-21-2011, 10:11 PM
I'm tired of this ****. DC builds up some momentum he goes to the bench, Price comes in and it takes him 20 seconds to set up the offense, no one is open = Price takes dumb shot. There is no way he is better than TJ.

Everygame I get scared when I see DC checking out to go get some rest cause I know we are about to lose all momentum. We need a back up PG over the summer.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 10:19 PM
Who is gonna play instead of Price? Ford? Do you guys remember how TJ Ford plays? Dribble into the lane and turn it over. Has Price been good? Hell no. He is looking for his shot way too much. But TJ isn't the answer and DC can't play the whole game. Blame Price for Price's play, not Vogel.

Sookie
04-21-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm tired of this ****. DC builds up some momentum he goes to the bench, Price comes in and it takes him 20 seconds to set up the offense, no one is open = Price takes dumb shot. There is no way he is better than TJ.

Everygame I get scared when I see DC checking out to go get some rest cause I know we are about to lose all momentum. We need a back up PG over the summer.

*sigh*

it may feel like that, but it's just not the case.

Price led the point guards in +/- by a significant margin this season. That isn't an indication of good or bad play.

What it is an indication of, is what happens, score wise, in the game, when a certain player comes in. So whether you think Price single handedly "loses the momentum" or not, doesn't matter. +/- shows he doesn't.

Now, what I think you are seeing..is that Dahntay Jones and AJ run an UGLY offense, it's as ugly as the Dun/Josh offense is pretty. But it's actually functioned pretty well this season.

Did Price play good tonight. Heck no. He was out of control and forcing shots. But he certainly didn't lose momentum for the team. He was a +/- 0. We didn't gain or lose momentum with him in. (Actually, that's not true..we did both.)

Trophy
04-21-2011, 10:27 PM
What do you expect?

Someone speaking out of their *** about something that isn't true.

Vogel is a damn good coach.

I don't feel a topic like this is worth going into much more detail.

PacersFan1991
04-21-2011, 10:32 PM
What a stupid thread, Vogel has done a damn good job and I hope he is named the full time Head Coach.

jeffg-body
04-21-2011, 10:33 PM
Yes, AJ has not played well in the post season, but DC is not all full strength either. Would you rather see TJ or heaven forbid Lance out there? He has us being competitive against one of the best teams in basketball right now. I was hoping we would pull off one game in this series but I am happy we are competing and making the bulls work their butts off for every win. Our guys really played good defense tonight but in the end was taken by the better team with an MVP player. Hopefully this experience will fuel the fire for our young guys to bust their humps in the offseason and get better. I see Hibbert, PG, DC and even Lance (if he can get it together) making good improvement this offseason.

Psyren
04-21-2011, 10:36 PM
Yes, AJ has not played well in the post season, but DC is not all full strength either. Would you rather see TJ or heaven forbid Lance out there? He has us being competitive against one of the best teams in basketball right now. I was hoping we would pull off one game in this series but I am happy we are competing and making the bulls work their butts off for every win. Our guys really played good defense tonight but in the end was taken by the better team with an MVP player. Hopefully this experience will fuel the fire for our young guys to bust their humps in the offseason and get better. I see Hibbert, PG, DC and even Lance (if he can get it together) making good improvement this offseason.

Lance? No thanks.

TJ instead of AJ? Yes please.

AJ is a good point guard. I've seen him do it.

It's not his fault we're losing, but he's certainly been, IMO, one of the major reasons. I'd rather see TJ who at least runs the offense, as opposed to the AJ Price "Dribble for 20 seconds, get stuck behind the free throw line, and shoot a really bad 3 pointer" offense.

owl
04-21-2011, 10:41 PM
The Pacers lost because they could not hit enough shots. George was 1 or 2 for 9.
I am not faulting him much because of his great defense and rebounding and goodness he is a young rookie. Others on the team did not step up either. Tyler has shot very poorly the past 2 games. These are young players really learning what the play-offs are all about. Vogel has done a superb job.

flox
04-21-2011, 10:43 PM
So uh...I have a feeling me and the board won't be getting along soon again.

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

Hoop
04-21-2011, 10:45 PM
For those who have not paid attention and it must be a lot of you. :-p

TJ has played his way on the bench every season he has been here, he earned it.

I'm done with him, I'll be happy if he never plays another second as a Pacer.

cdash
04-21-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm not upset with Vogel but I have to admit: I am not a big believer in AJ Price.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 10:52 PM
So uh...I have a feeling me and the board won't be getting along soon again.

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

Just remember how young this team is

PR07
04-21-2011, 10:55 PM
The last play was absolute garbage. Whether that was purely on Vogel, I don't know, but that was a terrible look by Granger. He was well defended and fading away.

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 10:58 PM
It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.

That is the luxury you have when you have a player like Rose and we don't have that, so the coach needs to be more creative, not blaming this loss on Vogel but I'm dissapointed that he can only call the same BS Iso plays JOB used to call.

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 11:05 PM
By the way I don't understand the AJ price complaining, both point guards were garbage, DC fadeway with Rose and Noah on his face had my blood boiling, DC was turning the ball over everytime he had a pick and roll situation, I don't know if anybody got to see it but in that last play Hansbrough was wide open and of course our point guard with no vision didn't see him :mad:

Anthem
04-21-2011, 11:06 PM
I'm not upset with Vogel but I have to admit: I am not a big believer in AJ Price.
I don't have a problem with that. I'd be happy to have an upgrade at backup PG, I know that for sure, but I don't know that Vogel would have had any more success with TJ.

I think there are still upgrades to be made at the PG spot.

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 11:09 PM
I don't have a problem with that. I'd be happy to have an upgrade at backup PG, I know that for sure, but I don't know that Vogel would have had any more success with TJ.

If you want to upgrade the back up point guard all you have to do is move DC to the bench and bring a real point guard.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 11:10 PM
By the way I don't understand the AJ price complaining, both point guards were garbage, DC fadeway with Rose and Noah on his face had my blood boiling, DC was turning the ball over everytime he had a pick and roll situation, I don't know if anybody got to see it but in that last play Hansbrough was wide open and of course our point guard with no vision didn't see him :mad:

DC didn't play great by any stretch, but at least he ran the offense or attempted too. AJ was looking for his shot the whole time. DC definitely played better than AJ did. It's not saying much, but he did.

flox
04-21-2011, 11:19 PM
I don't have a problem with that. I'd be happy to have an upgrade at backup PG, I know that for sure, but I don't know that Vogel would have had any more success with TJ.

I think Ford would be better defensively. But since we aren't guarding Rose with our PG, the point is probably moot and could be a decent justification for Price over Ford, since Price spaces the floor better.

But still, I think Ford deserves a look. At the very least, since it's the playoffs, his drives might actually be called fouls. And he has had decent playoff numbers in his career.

Sookie
04-21-2011, 11:21 PM
By the way I don't understand the AJ price complaining, both point guards were garbage, DC fadeway with Rose and Noah on his face had my blood boiling, DC was turning the ball over everytime he had a pick and roll situation, I don't know if anybody got to see it but in that last play Hansbrough was wide open and of course our point guard with no vision didn't see him :mad:

DC wasn't at full strength this game. So if you weight that, Price was the worst of the two. To me, it was the difference between "out of control" and "not quite there." I think its silly to blame a backup point guard for anything though, unless that backup is playing the same amount of minutes as the starter.

It's the PG position, so it sticks out. But it really is one of our better positions, particularly when you consider how young these two are. Give them another year and see how they develop. People have been really unfair to both of them. Darren Collison has had 4 (maybe 5) different coaches, with different coaching philosophies, in his second year. The point guard is an extension of the coach on the floor. Good for DC for playing as well as he has. Price, everyone needs to remember that 11 months ago this kid broke his kneecap. So the up and down of his game, from a physical standpoint. I'm not concerned about. I'm a fan of the AJ Price that was a great court general and had a great balance about himself where he knew when to shoot and when to pass, and made very good plays. I still see flashes of that Price, and that AJ needs to come back. Maybe scoring is his role in the second unit. But I have to say, I don't like that. He's a much better player as a "stir the drink/hit big shots when it's needed" kind of pg.

So in short, because of circumstances, neither have really had time for actual development, but I've seen enough flashes from both and good play from both, to know we've got something worth keeping there. So see how you feel about them, this time next season. There's really no rush, it's not like the Pacers are going to get pieces from other places to be contenders next season.

If this series has shown me anything, it's that we need an upgrade in our front court. But once again, I'd like to see how Josh, Tyler, and Roy would develop in a full season with a good coach. But we need a defender and a rebounder, and I don't see that coming from any of them.

Trophy
04-21-2011, 11:23 PM
DC was great in Game 1. Seems like a lot of people have forgotten.

He is clearly not 100%, but I would like for him to look to dish out the ball more like he did in Game 1.

I worry more about the offensive chemistry when AJ is running the point than I do when DC is out there.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 11:25 PM
The PG position isn't even why we lost tonight. Sure we didn't get great play from it, but at least DC hit his shots at a good clip. We needed the rest of the starters to hit their shots.

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 11:25 PM
DC wasn't at full strength this game. So if you weight that, Price was the worst of the two. To me, it was the difference between "out of control" and "not quite there." I think its silly to blame a backup point guard for anything though, unless that backup is playing the same amount of minutes as the starter.

It's the PG position, so it sticks out. But it really is one of our better positions, particularly when you consider how young these two are. Give them another year and see how they develop. People have been really unfair to both of them.

If this series has shown me anything, it's that we need an upgrade in our front court. But once again, I'd like to see how Josh, Tyler, and Roy would develop in a full season with a good coach. But we need a defender and a rebounder, and I don't see that coming from any of them.

Yeah so if DC is not full strength why play him at all? I don't like TJ but at that point I rather have the healthy poing guard playing and yes I agree with you AJ was worse.

flox
04-21-2011, 11:25 PM
I'm going to refrain from posting too much about Vogel until after the season, but I will say that we could definitely use a good backup point guard after the season.

But with Ford gone after this season I'm sure this will be addressed soon.

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 11:29 PM
The PG position isn't even why we lost tonight. Sure we didn't get great play from it, but at least DC hit his shots at a good clip. We needed the rest of the starters to hit their shots.

That is the problem, people complaint about Hansbrough not been able to hit his jumper but the problem is that both point guards were giving him the ball in the wrong places and out of rhythm, the same happened with everybody else, the two guys we have don't know how to make a simple pass.

Unclebuck
04-21-2011, 11:32 PM
You can't let aj price do what he's done all 3 games. You cannot let this guy suck the life and every ounce of momentum out of your team like that. You have a veteran pg on the bench that actually runs plays and is much quicker and won't pound the ball for 24 seconds. I'm sorry, you cannot be the coach if you can't see this. You just can't. Price has killed this team.


Ford has not played in months, he isn't ready to contribute. it isn't the coaches fault

Sookie
04-21-2011, 11:33 PM
That is the problem, people complaint about Hansbrough not been able to hit his jumper but the problem is that both point guards were giving him the ball in the wrong places and out of rhythm, the same happened with everybody else, the two guys we have don't know how to make a simple pass.

They were giving him the ball in the same place as they have been all season. Hans is just either cold or hot from those spots.

My issue with Hans, Josh, and Roy isn't with the offense, so much as the defense and rebounding.

Really. We're getting slaughtered on the boards. Price actually got 2 less rebounds than Hans in 20 less minutes, and he got more rebounds than Josh in less minutes. They don't ever box out.

Quite frankly, you wanna blame this series on anything, blame it on the rebounding.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 11:40 PM
That is the problem, people complaint about Hansbrough not been able to hit his jumper but the problem is that both point guards were giving him the ball in the wrong places and out of rhythm, the same happened with everybody else, the two guys we have don't know how to make a simple pass.

Hans and Hibbert had plenty of good looks. Hans even had a couple of good looks that he didn't take. Look, you dont take a combined 24 shots and only make 6. That just is terrible. Add in Paul George who only made 1 of his 9 shots... You can't blame that on DC or AJ. Sure DC wasn't 100%, but he is still the best PG this team has.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 11:41 PM
They were giving him the ball in the same place as they have been all season. Hans is just either cold or hot from those spots.

My issue with Hans, Josh, and Roy isn't with the offense, so much as the defense and rebounding.

Really. We're getting slaughtered on the boards. Price actually got 2 less rebounds than Hans in 20 less minutes, and he got more rebounds than Josh in less minutes. They don't ever box out.

Quite frankly, you wanna blame this series on anything, blame it on the rebounding.

Rebounding has been terrible. So many offensive boards are being given up. Combine it with terrible offense from 3 of the 5 starters and you are gonna lose.

Sookie
04-21-2011, 11:46 PM
Hans and Hibbert had plenty of good looks. Hans even had a couple of good looks that he didn't take. Look, you dont take a combined 24 shots and only make 6. That just is terrible. Add in Paul George who only made 1 of his 9 shots... You can't blame that on DC or AJ. Sure DC wasn't 100%, but he is still the best PG this team has.

6 of 24 shots
12 combined rebounds

but its our backup point guard's fault that we lost.

THIS is why I stick up for DC and AJ. Have they had their absolutely terrible stretches. Yes. Yes they have. Tonight was one of them.

But the other young guys always seem to get a pass. All of us knowing that they'll develop and they've got potential. To me, this extends to the point guards. Particularly when they are learning the most important position on the floor, and the hardest position on the floor..and neither have had the easiest circumstances to learn them in from the start of their careers.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 11:51 PM
6 of 24 shots
12 combined rebounds

but its our backup point guard's fault that we lost.

THIS is why I stick up for DC and AJ. Have they had their absolutely terrible stretches. Yes. Yes they have. Tonight was one of them.

But the other young guys always seem to get a pass. All of us knowing that they'll develop and they've got potential. To me, this extends to the point guards. Particularly when they are learning the most important position on the floor, and the hardest position on the floor..and neither have had the easiest circumstances to learn them in from the start of their careers.

I agree. I do think DC and AJ get more hate than they deserve. They have their terrible moments, AJ had quite a few tonight. But they aren't why we are losing this series. And a lot of the reason they have problems are the same reasons Hans/Hibbert/Paul have theirs. They are young!

d_c
04-21-2011, 11:51 PM
That is the luxury you have when you have a player like Rose and we don't have that, so the coach needs to be more creative, not blaming this loss on Vogel but I'm dissapointed that he can only call the same BS Iso plays JOB used to call.


I believe this board has incredibly unrealistic expectations of what coaches are able to do for NBA teams.

Sookie
04-21-2011, 11:55 PM
I believe this board has incredibly unrealistic expectations of what coaches are able to do for NBA teams.

Exactly.

A coach can draw up a brilliant play, but it won't mean anything if the players don't execute it.

I've seen a few great plays by Vogel to know he's capable of it. Our team, unfortunately, has "takebadshotsitus" And they are young..

Unclebuck
04-21-2011, 11:57 PM
I believe this board has incredibly unrealistic expectations of what coaches are able to do for NBA teams.


A point I've been trying to make for 4 seasons. so many thought I was defendiong the man, but really I was defending the position

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 11:58 PM
I believe this board has incredibly unrealistic expectations of what coaches are able to do for NBA teams.

Well I think this is easy to prove:
Pacers team with JOB= no playoffs

Pacers team with Vogel=playoffs, yep coaches make a huge difference.

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 12:01 AM
Well I think this is easy to prove:
Pacers team with JOB= no playoffs

Pacers team with Vogel=playoffs, yep coaches make a huge difference.


that wasn't his point. he was talking about how fans expect the coach to be able to get his team a good shot at the end of games.

Trophy
04-22-2011, 12:04 AM
To anyone who thinks Vogel is not a good coach then you're clearly not paying attention to the playoffs.

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 12:07 AM
that wasn't his point. he was talking about how fans expect the coach to be able to get his team a good shot at the end of games.

Well I think is because the same fans get to watch other games and see other coaches calling better last second plays that are not iso plays, how many times are we going to bang our heads against the wall to know that iso plays don't work for this team?

D squared fan
04-22-2011, 12:09 AM
Also if Vogel is kept. They need to hire a good offensive assistant coach.

Constellations
04-22-2011, 12:09 AM
Aj price has killed any momentum this team has had.

You do understand the caliber team the Bulls are right? And do you understand the caliber we are? Vogel has coached us to I believe, the most "exciting" playoff series right now. He's coached us great and made us look like a team worthy of being in the playoffs.

graphic-er
04-22-2011, 12:13 AM
I'm just tired of seeing our Back up point guard pound the ball for 10 seconds and not running the offense. I'd rather have TJ out there.

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 12:16 AM
I'm just tired of seeing our Back up point guard pound the ball for 10 seconds and not running the offense. I'd rather have TJ out there.

TJ would pound it for 20sec.

Constellations
04-22-2011, 12:21 AM
I say let Jeff run the point.

ilive4sports
04-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Well I think is because the same fans get to watch other games and see other coaches calling better last second plays that are not iso plays, how many times are we going to bang our heads against the wall to know that iso plays don't work for this team?

How do we know it is an iso play called? Tonight I didn't think it was. Execution wasn't there.

LA_Confidential
04-22-2011, 12:28 AM
I'm just tired of seeing our Back up point guard pound the ball for 10 seconds and not running the offense. I'd rather have TJ out there.

I miss Earl Wats....errr, Jarrett Ja....errr, Travis Dien....errr.

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 12:30 AM
I am re-watching the game and I have not seen an iso play the whole 4th quarter and there is less than 2 minutes to go in the game.

almost every play has been a pick and roll or Granger coming off screens

cdash
04-22-2011, 12:33 AM
To people bemoaning the iso calls at the end of games: Look around the NBA. That is 90% of what is called at the end of games. Isos for your best player. It's a call every coach makes because they all subscribe to the "get the ball in the hands of your best player" philosophy.

Lamar Mundane
04-22-2011, 12:36 AM
You can't let aj price do what he's done all 3 games. You cannot let this guy suck the life and every ounce of momentum out of your team like that. You have a veteran pg on the bench that actually runs plays and is much quicker and won't pound the ball for 24 seconds. I'm sorry, you cannot be the coach if you can't see this. You just can't. Price has killed this team.

Where the heck is the triple thank button?? Anyway, I don't agree with Vogel not being a good coach. I think he's at least done enough to earn a shot at a full season with these guys. We's be discussing how likely we are to win the lottery with 1 ball under JOB right now.

But you're absolutely right about price. I've never gotten so down so fast on a guy as I have with him. Simply awful. DC, DJ and TJ should see all guard PT, with AJ only playing in garbage time.

LA_Confidential
04-22-2011, 12:43 AM
To people bemoaning the iso calls at the end of games: Look around the NBA. That is 90% of what is called at the end of games. Isos for your best player. It's a call every coach makes because they all subscribe to the "get the ball in the hands of your best player" philosophy.

Im sure many would agree that the Iso play is by far the weakest portion of Danny's offensive game. I'd rank his skill set best to worst as follows:

1. Catch and Shoot
2. Screen Game
3. Post Game
4. Isolation

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 12:49 AM
There were no iso plays run in the fourth quarter

Day-V
04-22-2011, 12:50 AM
Wow, this thread is terrible.

cdash
04-22-2011, 12:53 AM
There were no iso plays run in the fourth quarter

What was that garbage at the end of the game then?

pacer4ever
04-22-2011, 01:01 AM
.
What was that garbage at the end of the game then?

That is a set play we have ran all season just basic PnR at first that was a option but the main option. Is to set Granger up for the shot he got. With an option to drive if he felt he could. But DC didnt leave him enoght time for that option. I think the Bulls knew it was coming.(he didnt get good sepration which is why he didnt get the best look)


It is simlar to the baseline end bound play. Where we give it to Hibbert by the 3pt line and Danny just runs around him and gets a open look from the Hibbert pick.

Eleazar
04-22-2011, 01:08 AM
It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.

Exactly, Vogel has been the better coach by a mile during this seasons. It is easy to coach a team when all you have to do is say, "Get the ball to Rose."


The bulls are a much better team than us...end of story. We have played beyond our talent level this entire series. To me when a team plays beyond their talent level...that is the sign of a good coach.

Not saying we are not talented...because we are. But we are NOT Bulls level talented.

I completely and utterly disagree, given fair refs and I have absolutely no doubt the Pacers would be up at least 2-1 if not 3-0 if we had fair and even refs. I mean seriously Boozer pushes Hansbrough to the ground and it is a foul on Hansbrough. You have to be in denial to not see it.

gummy
04-22-2011, 01:26 AM
Re: the last play, Granger indicates that the coaching staff drew up three or four different options and implies both that the Chicago D stepped up and that the guys failed to execute. It was not supposed to be iso ball or the highly contested shot he ended up taking.

"We had three or four different options. They took them away from us," said Granger. "This is part of lack of ball movement and inexperience. We’re a young team. This is a little disappointing because we need to win at least one of these."

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/rewind_110421.html
__________________

pacer4ever
04-22-2011, 01:31 AM
Re: the last play, Granger indicates that the coaching staff drew up three or four different options and implies both that the Chicago D stepped up and that the guys failed to execute. It was not supposed to be iso ball or the highly contested shot he ended up taking.

"We had three or four different options. They took them away from us," said Granger. "This is part of lack of ball movement and inexperience. We’re a young team. This is a little disappointing because we need to win at least one of these."

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/rewind_110421.html
__________________

It started out as a PnR with DC and Tyler that didnt work then the screen by Roy was a fail and Granger got a bad look.

cdash
04-22-2011, 01:45 AM
.

That is a set play we have ran all season just basic PnR at first that was a option but the main option. Is to set Granger up for the shot he got. With an option to drive if he felt he could. But DC didnt leave him enoght time for that option. I think the Bulls knew it was coming.(he didnt get good sepration which is why he didnt get the best look)


It is simlar to the baseline end bound play. Where we give it to Hibbert by the 3pt line and Danny just runs around him and gets a open look from the Hibbert pick.

Yeah, that does seem to be one of the two plays we run. The other is the Granger iso play--the one that beat the Knicks and the one that he tried to use a second time against the Knicks which Melo blocked.

bellisimo
04-22-2011, 06:34 AM
you know i was hoping for those trick set plays we make with alley oops to the basket from the inbound pass....have danny curl through a screen set by McRoberts and then have McRoberts go for the oop from the inbound passas Bulls were looking hard to double team Danny when he gets the ball...

there was a play called but the players just chocked on the execution of it...their spacing was awful thanks to the D that the Bulls came up with and they just weren't able to adjust to it in time...

this is all lack of experience more than anything...we will continue to get burned till we can learn to read the defenses better and react after they take away our option instead of trying to force our main/2nd option.

it felt like DC was told no matter what Granger is going to take the last shot - not sure if thats the case but that is exactly how he played it out....

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 08:00 AM
What was that garbage at the end of the game then?
p4ever asnwered your queston directly.

I think maybe some of us have different definition of what an iso is. if we dribble the ball up and the pt guard passed to danny, everyone clears out and DG goes one-on-one that is an iso.

If we move the ball up, run one pick and roll, run danny off a double scren and get Danny the ball at the top o the key - that is not an iso, especially because usually then danny runs of a screen in order to get into his sweet spot.

Unclebuck
04-22-2011, 08:01 AM
Yeah, that does seem to be one of the two plays we run. The other is the Granger iso play--the one that beat the Knicks and the one that he tried to use a second time against the Knicks which Melo blocked.


I dont consider those iso plays

vnzla81
04-22-2011, 08:15 AM
I dont consider those iso plays

Going one on one againts SW is not an Iso?

SMosley21
04-22-2011, 08:35 AM
Dumb thread alert!!!

Rogco
04-22-2011, 08:35 AM
Frustrating loss.

As for Vogel, I think he's done an amazing job with his overall game plan and getting the players ready to play. His only flaw has been off set pieces. We had a couple at the end of this last game and both ended up being contested crappy missed shots.

As for our point guards, I've been for months that we should draft a point guard in the draft with size to back up DC and let Price go. I like Price, but he's just not good enough.

I think this series has also really exposed our problems inside, especially with Hibbert. Offensively he should be a huge asset with Noah guarding him, and he just can't hit the close shots. I'm not calling for Hibberts head as I think he puts in the effort needed to progress and he has a great attitude. I'd like to see how he progresses over the offseason for next year as I think it will be a continued improvement, but I am now worried it's a position we'll have address.

thefeistyone
04-22-2011, 09:20 AM
I like Vogel a lot and I hope he's back next year

That being said, it's ok if everybody and there mom knows you're give it to your best player....if you're best player can get their own shot. That's not grangers game. The pacers strength is their depth, so they need to use it right down to their final possession. I would have been fine with any player on the court taking the final shot rather than grangers off balance 3. He needs to have something more creative following a time out.

Foul on Smits
04-22-2011, 09:20 AM
Dumb thread alert!!!

Come on. Grow up buddy. If you don't like it, don't post in it, but lets not act like a child.

thewholefnshow31
04-22-2011, 09:41 AM
Aj price has killed any momentum this team has had.

And you think TJ Ford would not have killed any momentum this team had? How quickly we forget why the guy got benched every year including this one. TJ would have killed the momentum just as quickly as AJ.

I think a lot of fans just had way to high of expectations for this team. I am thrilled we just kept it close, Paul George is having an amazing series defensively, and our young guys are gaining valuable experience.

Vogel has done a tremendous job turning this team around and getting us to the playoffs. He has done a very good job in the playoffs go up against the best team in the league given what he has to work with.

We get some rebounding help at PF in the offseason, Paul George works on his offense, and we will be a much higher seed then 8th next season.

BoomBaby31
04-22-2011, 09:47 AM
I strongly disagree with your theory of playing TJ over Price. TJ is a turnover machine. We traded big to get him and he's our 3rd option for a reason. Veteran or not, he is not better than Price.

I agree Vogel made some mistakes.

1.) HAVING JONES GUARD ROSE AT THE END OF THE GAME!!! Paul George should of been on Rose, he has guarded him the best any defender in the league could and to allow Jones to do so was a vital mistake.

2.) Keeping Collison and Granger under 35mins. I mean these kids are 23 and 28 they can play significant minutes. Especially Collison, he is far superior to TJ and Price and should of been on the court 41 minutes.


Is Vogel a good coach. Yes! I don't think we should keep our options closed though.

flox
04-22-2011, 09:58 AM
6 of 24 shots
12 combined rebounds

but its our backup point guard's fault that we lost.

THIS is why I stick up for DC and AJ. Have they had their absolutely terrible stretches. Yes. Yes they have. Tonight was one of them.

But the other young guys always seem to get a pass. All of us knowing that they'll develop and they've got potential. To me, this extends to the point guards. Particularly when they are learning the most important position on the floor, and the hardest position on the floor..and neither have had the easiest circumstances to learn them in from the start of their careers.

I don't suppose that you are advocating for a change in big men? That would make us most unlikely allies....

beast23
04-22-2011, 10:02 AM
I strongly disagree with your theory of playing TJ over Price. TJ is a turnover machine. We traded big to get him and he's our 3rd option for a reason. Veteran or not, he is not better than Price.

I agree Vogel made some mistakes.

1.) HAVING JONES GUARD ROSE AT THE END OF THE GAME!!! Paul George should of been on Rose, he has guarded him the best any defender in the league could and to allow Jones to do so was a vital mistake.

2.) Keeping Collison and Granger under 35mins. I mean these kids are 23 and 28 they can play significant minutes. Especially Collison, he is far superior to TJ and Price and should of been on the court 41 minutes.


Is Vogel a good coach. Yes! I don't think we should keep our options closed though.
Price or Ford... I don't think it makes much difference. However, Price had not been playing very well, so I probably would have given more time to Ford.

I agree, I would have had George on Ford. George had played Ford very well throughout parts of the game and seemed to be "all in" for the challenge.

As far as minutes go, couldn't disagree more. We were down 2-0, so screw the minutes. You play whoever you have to for as many minutes as you have to in order to get the job done. Basically, there is NO tomorrow.

Justin Tyme
04-22-2011, 10:22 AM
It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.


This is very true, and it makes Granger look even worse. Granger had some nice baskets in the 4th qtr, but who didn't realize Granger would take the last shot whether it was an open shot or a forced one? The sun comes up in east and sets in the west everyday, and it was predictable Granger would take the last shot. He's not Wade, LeBron, or Rose. Apparently, Granger feels he is the "MAN", when in reality he is just one of the other many boys when it comes to being clutch and the closer.

I realize Granger is the best player the Pacers have, but there are other players on the floor. IT IS A TEAM GAME. Quit allowing Granger to feel he has to take the last shot, especially when it is a forced shot that isn't even a good shot. 2 words that aren't synonymous with each other are "clutch and Granger." Never have been nor will they ever be.

pacergod2
04-22-2011, 10:26 AM
Wow. I disagree with so much of the sentiment in this thread. AJ did make a few turnovers, agreed, but he wasn't nearly as bad or as accountable for our loss as any other player.

I want to look at Granger. He took some really bad shots, early in the shot clock with nobody in position to rebound. That pass he threw cross court that sailed over the head of AJ was HORRID. He took that quick jumper off the offensive rebound completely off balance and in no way was that a smart play. He has been trying to bail himself out at the top of the key when he gets out of control by handing the ball off to a BIG on the three point line. They can't do ANYTHING with that. WTF are you thinking? The last shot, I don't mind him taking, but he was being guarded by three people. There were two people open. Our best player is making dumb plays. He was making shots last night. Great, but he needs to do more. Of course, he doesn't have any more playoff experience than everybody else on this team.

Hibbert missed some close ones, but the touch he had on those shots was nice. They just rolled off the rim. Joakim Noah is one of the best defensive centers in the entire league. To expect Hibbert to put up 20+ points and outrebound Boozer and Noah by himself is ridiculous. He does need to do a better job of rebounding I agree.

Hansborough was awesome last night with his hustle and toughness, but man his decision making was bad. He couldn't make up his mind whether he wanted to shoot or drive all night. There was no confidence stepping up into that 15-20 footer. Hansborough and Hibbert both need to box out more, but their PG, SG, and SF are all better rebounders than what we have. At least that is what they have been showing. Keith Bogans coming up with several key rebounds this series? Where are you Granger? Sitting outside the three point line watching? Cause that is all I have seen from you on that side of the ball.

As for Darren Collison. There is absolutely, positively, uncontestably no reason why, he should be guarding Korver. I have seen almost every single big three Korver has hit this series has been when Collison has been on him. I was saying last night that he should not have even been in the game. We should have just played without a PG if we are going to put George on Rose. Go big, get more rebounds, CONTEST JUMP SHOTS OF THE GUY WHO HASN'T MISSED A THREE NEARLY ALL SERIES AND WE HAVE OUR SHORTEST PLAYER GUARDING HIM?!?!?!

Coronary almost over.

Our pick and rolls have been ugly. Collison has been leaving way too soon so our bigs aren't even in position to set a pick. Collison has hit some big shots in the lane don't get me wrong, but when you are only doing one thing well, it becomes easy to defend. The Granger play last night he left early and took a bad angle on the pick. He started the play poorly and it just got worse. How did Granger not realize he had three people on him? Pass the ball if that is the case. Everybody on the court is an NBA player.

I hate that Rush hasn't gotten enough minutes, but I understand why. We are trying to figure out a way to guard Rose. Brandon is a half step too slow for Rose, so Jones makes more sense. George makes the most sense, I agree. Dunleavy has been solid offensively. I would have him guarding Korver being as long as he is. Korver isn't going to drive around anybody, even if it is Mike. Korver needs to be contested and that is what Mike does best, recover from getting burned by using his length and vision to make up for it later. I would have Mike playing Point Forward for us honestly. Keep him on Korver or Bogans defensively. If we were playing the Heat or Celtics, we would see Brandon getting more minutes.

McRoberts has been awesome this series. So has Foster. Love that Foster hit Rose hard. They want to elbow and punch our players, well we need to take it out on him. I am disappointed that we haven't fouled Rose harder. We have beat him up pretty good but it should be worse, considering that we are having fouls called on us for breathing on the guy. Make him pay for the officiating at least.

OK. I'm done. Sorry so long. It's been inside for too long.

PS - I think Vogel has done a good job. We are just a really inexperienced team who falters in the last two minutes of the game. It SHOULD be expected that these games have played out this way.

naptownmenace
04-22-2011, 10:33 AM
Good coach. Innovative, inspirational, young. Cannot draw up final offensive possessions to save his life. That's his main flaw in my book, and easily cured by good assistants.

I think the plays he drew up were good but I think Collison failed to execute them properly. The Bulls trapped him on the Pick-and-Roll and he didn't make the correct decisions when that happened.

When the game was tied at 84, Danny came open off of a screen but Darren didn't get him the ball. Instead he forced a contested shot between 2 defenders. The last play actually wasn't a bad play. Deng did a great job defending and Danny still got a great look at the game winning shot. Deng bothered the shot and forced the miss.

I don't see how you can blame Vogel when Hansbrough and Hibbert missed as many shots as they did in Game 3. Hibbert got the ball deep in the paint several times and he either missed or committed the offensive foul. Hansbrough's jumper has gone M.I.A. since game 1. Neither of those 2 things are Frank Vogel's fault.

Vogel made the great decision to play Dhantay Jones in Game 3. He also has the Pacers playing the best defense they've played all year. The Bulls have Derrick Rose and the Pacers don't. That's the difference in the entire series.

I don't understand how anyone can fault Vogel for not getting his young 37 win team to upset the league leader in wins and defensive. It's just silly.

Foul on Smits
04-22-2011, 10:49 AM
Wait. Why does everyone point at tyler and say " see Obrien wouldn't play him and now Vogel does and look at him now". Yet, obrien didn't play Ford either and its not assumed that he might benefit from thee Vogel system too? You can't have it both ways. And for the record, ive thought tj has been pretty solid all year.

binarysolo
04-22-2011, 10:57 AM
this series has made me think much better of Vogel, not worse

Justin Tyme
04-22-2011, 10:57 AM
Who is gonna play instead of Price? Ford? Do you guys remember how TJ Ford plays? Dribble into the lane and turn it over. Has Price been good? Hell no. He is looking for his shot way too much. But TJ isn't the answer and DC can't play the whole game. Blame Price for Price's play, not Vogel.


Ford has played in 1 game, and he wasn't at all as you described. He played within the system trying to get other players involved. OTOH, Price shot "9" times as a b/u PG in 13 PT. Making only TWO of them. That's a whopping 22%! Price in 3 playoff games is averaging 17 minutes per game and has achieved the incredible 1 Ast per game and shot 34%. That's ridiculous! 1 Ast for 17 minutes from a PG is beyond horrible. It just plain out right stinks. There is NO defending that type of poor play. I'd much rather have Ford, who has playoff experience, backing up Collison than Price.

AND yes, the Pacers need to look for a better b/u PG than Price for next season.

Sookie
04-22-2011, 10:58 AM
I don't suppose that you are advocating for a change in big men? That would make us most unlikely allies....

I believe strongly, that Price and Collison will be a fine PG duo. It's something we don't have to worry about, and them developing is our problem right now. Do they have flashes of terrible play. Yes, but they also show flashes of what they are capable of doing. And we just need to develop it. So it's not a problem. Both have a huge work ethic, do what the coaches tell them to do, and are pretty talented guys. They've gotten a lot of hate around here, but I have a feeling they'll both make people look silly by this time next season. (If given the opportunity)

But they are consistently the most "hated" on. We've gotten "Price hasn't played well all series." Not true. Not true at all. He played well the first game. Was Jekyll and Hyde the second. (Really just panicked and then settled down.) And did not play well last game. That's better then what Hansbrough, Josh, Hibbert, Dun, and Rush have done.

DC..we've got people whining about DC. But he had been excellent in this series until last game. Of course, he was playing on a sprained ankle. Not like that could have had anything to do with it, at all.

This series has shown, we need a defender and rebounder in the post. With that, we're up 3-0. That's something that Hibbert, Hansbrough, and McRoberts are never going to be. (Hello Jeff Foster ten years ago) I like all three of them a lot. And the skills that each bring to the game are unique. But none of them have the "tough defensive guy who is a rebounder" skill. That's the guy that needs to play next to Roy.

My dream, would be to have Hans be the backup PF, McRoberts be the backup C, and get a starting PF that is capable of doing those things. Problem is, Josh is going to have to get stronger to do that. (But those two play well together anyway)

I know you'd like to switch out Hibbert. I'd give Roy another year to see where he's at, as to me, he's got the most potential of the three. He works hard. His problem is mental, and core strength. (Which hopefully he'll address in the off season)

We also need a SG that can score. But just like the PG position, I feel that's only a matter of time and development with Paul George. So understandable if we don't make a change there.

This is just a mater of patience. These young guys are good. But the only thing we need, that we don't have, is a big guy that can rebound and defend. Heck, if the Pacers front office wanted to stick with this entire team for another season to see where they are at, then I'd be fine with it. I just believe that the conclusion we are going to come to is that we need a post defender and a rebounder.

daschysta
04-22-2011, 11:00 AM
Vogel has outcoached thibs (COY) and has our guys playing with passion and intensity. How this series can make vogel look like anything other than a very good coach baffles me. The last play was a good one btw. It obviously wasn't drawn up for a DC contested floater, evidenced by dannies reaction. DC executes properly and danny has an open jumper.

Bball
04-22-2011, 12:06 PM
I didn't get to see last night's game but based on what I saw previously from AJ I think Ford's experience could pay dividends. He has quickness necessary for the defensive end and he clearly wasn't rattled at all to be playing in game 2 even though he probably didn't expect to be.
OTOH... I guess we're still playing for the future so playing AJ now, even if he has a rough patch, might payoff next season or the next time in the playoffs. Otherwise, being in win or go home mode, I'd expect TJ to get some minutes...

Foul on Smits
04-23-2011, 03:28 PM
Yup......

Cryyin
04-23-2011, 03:36 PM
I think Frank has alot of potential as coach, and i realize its a learning process for him and the team together. I do have to question why paul george has not returned in the 2nd qtr after being such a disruptive force in the 1st. As well as he was playing today id give him as many minutes as he could handle.

BringJackBack
04-23-2011, 03:45 PM
Nope...

gummy
04-23-2011, 03:56 PM
Nobody makes the right decision all the time - and sometimes of course the right decision is much more obvious in hindsight. I don't think Vogel has made the right move all the time but I am totally puzzled by how anyone can look at where we were when he took over and at what we've done in this series against the #1 seed in the East and think "Yeah, that Vogel - not a good coach." Even Vogel fans did not envision this series being as competitive as it is but there is no doubt that Vogel's style of play matches up much better with the Bulls than JOB's. We can go all the way back to the regular season and take a look at the games against them headed by those coaches to see that.

Our guys are playing hard and Coach Vogel is putting them in a good position to succeed every game in this series. What more can you ask for from a coach?

flox
04-23-2011, 04:57 PM
I believe strongly, that Price and Collison will be a fine PG duo. It's something we don't have to worry about, and them developing is our problem right now. Do they have flashes of terrible play. Yes, but they also show flashes of what they are capable of doing. And we just need to develop it. So it's not a problem. Both have a huge work ethic, do what the coaches tell them to do, and are pretty talented guys. They've gotten a lot of hate around here, but I have a feeling they'll both make people look silly by this time next season. (If given the opportunity)

Given that Price will probably not be in question until next season because of his contract (although his status as backup PG may be in question), I think that Price will get his shot in camp. I think we both have decently established positions on the Price issue, so we'll just see what camp brings on that. Lets see if he can do it.


But they are consistently the most "hated" on. We've gotten "Price hasn't played well all series." Not true. Not true at all. He played well the first game. Was Jekyll and Hyde the second. (Really just panicked and then settled down.) And did not play well last game. That's better then what Hansbrough, Josh, Hibbert, Dun, and Rush have done.

DC..we've got people whining about DC. But he had been excellent in this series until last game. Of course, he was playing on a sprained ankle. Not like that could have had anything to do with it, at all.

I feel like when you have the point guards as the primary handlers, they will always get the most criticism. You need them to make the right decisions, and since we don't have an elite player to just dump the ball off to right now, they will get a lot of heat because they need to do more. But they do make really really bad plays at bad times that cause this, and as of right now if we want to win we just simply can't let that happen. I'm not saying it's fair, but at this point they have to carry a lot given the state of the rest of the team.


This series has shown, we need a defender and rebounder in the post. With that, we're up 3-0. That's something that Hibbert, Hansbrough, and McRoberts are never going to be. (Hello Jeff Foster ten years ago) I like all three of them a lot. And the skills that each bring to the game are unique. But none of them have the "tough defensive guy who is a rebounder" skill. That's the guy that needs to play next to Roy.

My dream, would be to have Hans be the backup PF, McRoberts be the backup C, and get a starting PF that is capable of doing those things. Problem is, Josh is going to have to get stronger to do that. (But those two play well together anyway)
Besides the strength position for Josh at C, I feel like he's better off at the PF and is more natural there. I'm not sure if I want him here long term, I feel both strength and at times, height will be an issue. I think that we can most likely live with Hans as a starting PF if we get a better center. At the very least, his effort will ensure big minutes each night.


I know you'd like to switch out Hibbert. I'd give Roy another year to see where he's at, as to me, he's got the most potential of the three. He works hard. His problem is mental, and core strength. (Which hopefully he'll address in the off season)
Agreed on the potential. Don't think he'll ever get there. Also worried that whatever PF we pair with Roy will be an offensive liability as many of those defensive rebounding PFs are. I think we're more likely to find that in a Center where we've seen Diop and Dalembert types.


We also need a SG that can score. But just like the PG position, I feel that's only a matter of time and development with Paul George. So understandable if we don't make a change there.

This is just a mater of patience. These young guys are good. But the only thing we need, that we don't have, is a big guy that can rebound and defend. Heck, if the Pacers front office wanted to stick with this entire team for another season to see where they are at, then I'd be fine with it. I just believe that the conclusion we are going to come to is that we need a post defender and a rebounder.

Yes, I'd be ok with standing par and improving the bench for a season. We would ideally find bench players who can push for starters and hopefully get our young guns better.