PDA

View Full Version : Pacers "Relevant" again and Vogel starting to stand up to players.



Phree Refill
04-21-2011, 06:50 AM
Kravitz had an article in the Star this morning that had an interesting tidbit to it aside from the subject of the article. I've bolded it below.

Bob Kravitz
The Indianapolis Star

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110421/SPORTS04/104210398/1062/SPORTS04/Relevant-s-an-improvement


Relevant? That's an improvement

A strange thing happened at the United Center with 24 seconds left in Game 2 of the Pacers-Bulls series.

A chant went up.

"Granger (stinks)! Granger (stinks)!"

Sam Smith, the veteran Chicago basketball writer best known for his book "The Jordan Rules," turned to me on press row.

"Forty eight hours ago, most of these people didn't know Indiana still had an NBA franchise," he said. "And they definitely didn't know who Danny Granger was."

Back in the day of my old radio show, we asked ESPN national hoops writer Chris Broussard what he viewed as the national perception of the Indiana Pacers.

"There is no national perception," he said.

He was right.

Shoot, there was hardly a local perception. People went from hating the home team to simply not caring. This year, the Pacers finished last in the league in attendance, a tough pill to swallow in a region where basketball is religion.

The Pacers were the most anonymous, nondescript team in the NBA, bereft of stars, lacking any real identity as a basketball team.

Now, though, that's changing. Or it's starting to change. It's hardly a paradigm shift nationally or locally, but with the Pacers playing the Bulls tough the first two games in Chicago, and returning home tonight for Game 3 at Conseco Fieldhouse, there's a growing sense that the Pacers have begun to matter again.

And in a good way.

"I walk around in the mall now or drive around, I definitely see more Pacers hats and jackets and shirts," Roy Hibbert said. "That wasn't the case when I got here. My rookie year, the team was trying to change its image. I had old women stop me in the street and say, 'You guys have got to stop acting like hoodlums.' "

He laughed.

"I was like, I wasn't even here, I was in college when all that stuff happened," Hibbert said. "But I knew what they were saying."

Sure enough, the Pacers are very fortunate to be in the Eastern Conference; in the West, they wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs with 37 victories. But it's what you do with the opportunity when you get there, kind of the VCU Effect. And the Pacers have seized this opportunity and not only taken the Bulls to the limit, but reminded people nationally and locally that they do, in fact, exist.

You think prospective free agents haven't noticed that Indiana is building an interesting, young team with massive potential? Suddenly, Indy doesn't look like hoops purgatory.

I'm not going to get all dramatic and say this is the series that turns it all around for this franchise. They still finished last in the league in attendance. They still might not sell out Game 3. And there's a pretty good chance Chicago fans will turn portions of the fieldhouse into the United Center South. (Quick request: Can they bring the Luv-a-Bulls along?)

It's unfair to expect some kind of Pavlovian response from local fans who've spent the last eight years either disgusted or bored by this franchise. It takes a lot more than 40 games of good basketball to make fans buy tickets.

But it's changing.

People are feeling good about this franchise, even invested.

It is impossible, at this point, to give interim coach Frank Vogel too much credit. He has done an astonishing job, putting his imprint on this team emotionally and strategically. When he took over, this group was dispirited by years under Jim O'Brien, and was playing a style of basketball that favored early, quick 3-point shots. Vogel made this team feel good about itself, and altered the team's style, making it a more physical outfit, doing so without the benefit of an offseason.

I'm just not ready to rip off the interim tag, not until the season is completely done. There are still too many questions:

Will Larry Bird return and be the one making the call?

How much money will owner Herb Simon be willing to spend on a head coach?

In the long term, do you want a young coach leading a young team, or do you need a veteran with more experience and cachet?

At this point, the Pacers players don't quite know whether Vogel is the easy-going Mr. Positive they sometimes walked over the first months of his tenure, or the increasingly tough taskmaster they've seen the past few weeks. Vogel raised eyebrows at a recent practice when he went verbally toe-to-toe with veteran James Posey.

"As he's gone along, he's gotten more comfortable and figured out what his coaching style is," Pacers veteran Mike Dunleavy said. "At the beginning, he wanted to be overly positive, and that was a good thing. Now he's gotten to the point where he's raising his voice a little bit and cracking the whip a little bit recently."

What's interesting is, there's a local debate over Vogel's future. Look at the message boards, listen to radio . . . they're talking about it. The noxious cloud of apathy is starting to lift.

Finally, after all these lost years, Indiana Pacers basketball has begun to matter again.

Really glad to hear Frank is finding his path as far as what type of authoritarian he needs to be. For the players to really respect him and want to play hard for him 100% of the time they need to know he's not just a pushover. Just like the potential all our young players have, Frank is improving as well and showing he has just as much potential as them. While I think the front office does need to do a thorough search for our next coach and wait several weeks after our season is over to allow biased (good) emotions to subside that cloud the perception of Vogel, I can't help but be excited like many of you at the thought of Vogel and this team both growing together in the future.

Kaufman
04-21-2011, 07:18 AM
one might presume that in addition to growing into the job, the front office might be giving vogel permission to "crack the whip" a bit, signs to me that they are exhibiting confidence in him.

just a theory.

bellisimo
04-21-2011, 07:22 AM
why is Posey going toe-to-toe with Vogel?

Unclebuck
04-21-2011, 07:58 AM
See that was my first impression of Vogel and one reason why I wasn't on board until these playoffs. I thought at times it appeared the players did walk all over him and that he was too positive and too nice - that was my impression and educated guess.

Future_NBA_Player
04-21-2011, 08:11 AM
why is Posey going toe-to-toe with Vogel?

Its not as bad as that sounds. He was just wants to test the waters and see how much he can get away with.

duke dynamite
04-21-2011, 08:50 AM
why is Posey going toe-to-toe with Vogel?
Maybe Posey is just a dick. Who knows?

vnzla81
04-21-2011, 08:52 AM
Maybe Posey is just a dick. Who knows?

I always thought he was, he had issues with his coach before.

pizza guy
04-21-2011, 08:57 AM
Its not as bad as that sounds. He was just wants to test the waters and see how much he can get away with.

I think the question was more about why it was Posey? A guy who hasn't seen playing time for awhile, and probably won't. What did he have to argue about so adamantly? And wasn't he supposed to be a veteran presence, an example to the young guys?

Maybe we're trying to make too much of the incident, but it does seem strange.

Good for Vogel, though, that he's taking off the training wheels a little bit.

Kegboy
04-21-2011, 09:01 AM
I would think Posey's just mad he's not playing. One thing in the regular season, but this is the playoffs.

Changing topics, I want to point out something:


Look at the message boards, listen to radio...

I thought Bob didn't know what a message board was? I mean, he just got on twitter, right?

:kravitz:

Unclebuck
04-21-2011, 09:08 AM
The point isn't why was it Posey, or what is wrong with Posey, the point has nothing to do with Posey, the point is that Vogel stood up to him or anyone.

If we want to put a list together of NBA players who have gone toe-to-toe with their coach, the list would last forever

Hicks
04-21-2011, 09:21 AM
Vogel's stock just went up, again, with me.

pacergod2
04-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Posey is typically a very vocal player in terms of calling out weaknesses in other teams, telling other players where they need to be, etc. He was always the guy in the huddle saying things like that with JOB. Maybe Posey said something the coach didn't agree with and they had a discussion. Discussions in basketball are often full of energy and emotion from being so worked up physically. It is not a big deal.

I would love to keep Vogel around, but he may be better as a lead assistant at this point.

BillS
04-21-2011, 09:46 AM
I must have been too focused on what was happening on the floor, but I never heard them say "Granger Sucks", I heard them say "Pacers Suck" - what was going on when they were calling out Granger?

graphic-er
04-21-2011, 10:18 AM
I must have been too focused on what was happening on the floor, but I never heard them say "Granger Sucks", I heard them say "Pacers Suck" - what was going on when they were calling out Granger?

Pacers Suck - Granger Sucks.... sound very similar when yelling in a crowd. Could be either. I'm not sure which one they said. I thought at that point in the game Granger Sucks didn't make sense because it wasn't like Danny had done anything to warrant that chant. He wasn't playing out of his mind, and he wasn't stinking it up out there either.

I hope the whole Fieldhouse chants SATs when Rose gets to the line.

BPump33
04-21-2011, 10:29 AM
Pacers Suck - Granger Sucks.... sound very similar when yelling in a crowd. Could be either. I'm not sure which one they said. I thought at that point in the game Granger Sucks didn't make sense because it wasn't like Danny had done anything to warrant that chant. He wasn't playing out of his mind, and he wasn't stinking it up out there either.

I hope the whole Fieldhouse chants SATs when Rose gets to the line.

We have done the SAT chant at least the last two times Rose has been here and it's hard to tell over all the MVP chants from the Bulls "fans." Maybe we'll have better luck tonight.

bellisimo
04-21-2011, 10:45 AM
i'd advise against singling out players and chanting...come on we had Reggie on our team...we don't need to face similar consequences from opposing players...no need for a Chris Paul mishap again...

tfarks
04-21-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't need any reaffirmation at this point. Vogel needs to stay.

Hicks
04-21-2011, 11:01 AM
Better to chant Kill-Er-Clowns, Kill-Er-Clowns.

Trophy
04-21-2011, 11:12 AM
I noticed how Vogel is discipling these players a lot more than when there was that locker room issue.

I think he's the one who told Lance off and he's not going to tolerate immature children and those who won't give it their all on the court.

You can even tell during timeouts when he had the mic on he was raising his voice giving the guys confidence at the time.

It's working all working.

El Pacero
04-21-2011, 01:56 PM
I must have been too focused on what was happening on the floor, but I never heard them say "Granger Sucks", I heard them say "Pacers Suck" - what was going on when they were calling out Granger?

If I remember correctly, "Granger Stinks" came after "Pacers Suck" ...but it wasn't nearly as loud so might not even heard it on TV.

Justin Tyme
04-21-2011, 02:43 PM
I thought Bob didn't know what a message board was? I mean, he just got on twitter, right? :kravitz:



LOL! That's funny, and at the sametime dead on target. You can take it to the bank that Kravitz reads PD... probably daily.

"Mediocre minds think alike", right Bob?

LucasRL13
04-21-2011, 02:53 PM
Do you guys believe it is still possible even if we win the tie?


I believe if we win these two at home we still have every opportunity to surprise everyone and everything ;)

90'sNBARocked
04-21-2011, 03:23 PM
Better to chant Kill-Er-Clowns, Kill-Er-Clowns.

Hicks

how sick ould it be if fans brought in clown masks and wore them in Conseco!!!!

Rose looks up at the free throw line while seeing a sea of clown faces and wimpers away in fear

sweet

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 03:32 PM
Makes me wonder if Posey was the player that just quit during the drill during our slump...

Good to see Vogel being more of an authority figure too. Is there anything wrong with this guy? He's seeming rather great so far.

jhondog28
04-21-2011, 03:47 PM
why is Posey going toe-to-toe with Vogel?

Cause Posey is older hahaha

Anthem
04-21-2011, 04:23 PM
Makes me wonder if Posey was the player that just quit during the drill during our slump...
What's this? I hadn't heard this before.

ilive4sports
04-21-2011, 04:57 PM
What's this? I hadn't heard this before.

There was a poster who's friend was at a practice and an unnamed player just quit in the middle of the drill. I will try and find the post

here it is

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=62567&highlight=player+quit


I was recently told a story from my ex-coach who is a season ticket holder and was given a chance to sit in on a practice.

The team was doing a 2v1 fast break drill, where whoever made a shot had to get back on defense. He didn't say who it was but apparently one of the players after making a shot just walked off the court instead of running back on defense, and refused to listen to the coaches when he was told to get back on defense.

He also said he felt like the players half-assed the practice until Larry Bird came walking in at which point in time they started to practice hard.


So it appears to me that the players respect Bird, but in no way respect Vogel.

NapTonius Monk
04-21-2011, 06:44 PM
why is Posey going toe-to-toe with Vogel?If it was on the court, you can bet that conversation happened at the three point line. Posey wouldn't have come inside of the arc for that conversation.

hoosierguy
04-21-2011, 06:53 PM
Another offbase column by Kravitz.

If Bulls fans actually did not know until recently that Indiana had an NBA team then they are even dumber than I thought. Amazing that Chicagoans could be so dismissive of Indiana after Superbowl XLI.

The Pacers' attendance woes are simply a product of playing in a small market and not being very good. The Bulls didn't win more than 30 games in a season for the better part of a decade after Jordan retired but still drew well. The Knicks, Clippers, Nets, Timberwolves, and Warriors have all been worse on average than the Pacers over the past five seasons but draw more fans as a result of playing in a bigger market. That is all.

It wasn't that long ago that the Pacers were drawing 16-17k a night on average.

Since86
04-22-2011, 12:56 PM
Dakich just went on a few seconds about Posey. Said he needs to be shown the door. I guess Posey cussed out Frank.