PDA

View Full Version : DC



MrPreGame
04-19-2011, 07:25 AM
So Collison got hurt.

Can we win without him? He was playing decently

Can we win a game, maybe the series without our starting pg?

TJ Ford stepped up a lil bit given all the rust he got on the pine.

Thoughts?

Major Cold
04-19-2011, 07:56 AM
TJ played a little, but brought it as much if not more than AJ at running the offense.

AJ hit some great shots, but TJ solid all around in most possessions.

I am willing to wager that many will scratch their heads wondering why TJ was stuck on the bench. Pacers done him durty by placing him in an offense that doesn't work and not giving him a shot when that offense went away.

daschysta
04-19-2011, 08:01 AM
We need DC if we are going to have any shot at making the series interesting in the long run. AJ can be decent in stretches, but DC is much better with the starters, has been distributing the ball more and is one of the only guys on the team who can get their own shot when chicagos defense makes running sets difficult.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 11:22 AM
The short answer is no.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 11:46 AM
We might be able to win one game depending on how well Price and Ford play.

AJ's got to adjust to the starters, because it is such a difference. Dun and Josh help out the PG so much, so long as the PG lets them help, ie gives up the ball. (Which, surprisingly, Ford really did) But TJ also has to try and not be the hero too. Being smart and solid is important. If He starts dribbling it around in circles and throwing up bad shots/throwing the ball to the other team, we'll have a problem.

I think AJ is also better at the end of games than DC is. But..its actually having a close game at the end that's the problem. In order to do that, he needs to not freak out for ten minutes at a time...

If Price plays as well as he did in the last six minutes of that game, in the last two minutes and third quarter, we win easily.

However, I think switching up the lineup after a few months of gelling will hurt. The starters are used to playing with DC, bench is used to playing with AJ. At least they'll be able to practice some..but I really hope DC is healthy and able to go.

Lou Bega
04-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Born Ready missed his time to shine. I hope he realizes this; but he is probably to busy smoking weed and listening to Gucci Mane.

PacersRule
04-19-2011, 11:50 AM
IMO, we might be able to win one game at home without Collison, however that is me being really optimistic. Realistically, I think we get sweep without Collison. He's that important to the Pacers.

pizza guy
04-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Without DC, we have no chance. Had he played the second half last night, I think we would've won that game. He's a second year guy with plenty of bugs to work out in his game, but he has really stepped up in the playoffs.

CircleCity3318
04-19-2011, 11:53 AM
Do we know the severity of the injury? And how long he will be about? Kind of early to be start asking if we can win without him without all of the facts.

Phree Refill
04-19-2011, 12:26 PM
I want to talk about that cameraman for a minute. He attempts to get his legs out of the way AFTER Collison steps on his foot. He saw Darren coming and just continued to stare at him rather than move his feet. After Darren sprang his ankle the cameraman then tries to make it look like he was attempting to move his feet in earnest. He was wearing Bulls red as well. I'm not going to get into the notion that "if we had Darren we could have won" but I will say had it been Derek Rose stepping on a cameraman's foot all you would hear on ESPN right now would be "Are cameramen too close to the floor? Did the cameraman just cost the Bulls a championship? Did the Pacers put that cameraman there?"

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Born Ready missed his time to shine. I hope he realizes this; but he is probably to busy smoking weed and listening to Gucci Mane.

Lay off the poor kid.

Have you ever tried to listen to that garbage without being high?

Sookie
04-19-2011, 12:29 PM
Lay off the poor kid.

Have you ever tried to listen to that garbage without being high?

Honestly, thank god Stephenson screwed up just in case DC isn't able to play. I think TJ stinks as a PG..but he's just a much better option.

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 12:31 PM
Honestly, thank god Stephenson screwed up just in case DC isn't able to play. I think TJ stinks as a PG..but he's just a much better option.

Great call.

I can't think of anything that would take the wind out of the team's sails more than if Lance was forced into playing time.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:32 PM
Great call.

I can't think of anything that would take the wind out of the team's sails more than if Lance was forced into playing time.

To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him too.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anyone more ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 12:37 PM
To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him to.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anymore ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?

Hmm...that's an interesting question. It's too soon to be answered, but Danny Granger perhaps.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 12:38 PM
To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him to.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anymore ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?

Honestly, what surprised me was TJ gave the ball up to Dun and Josh. That surprised me. The offense in the second unit works well when everyone shares the ball. And TJ did that. Which is strangely unlike TJ.

I also thought his demeanor the fact that he was calm helped the team a lot. When AJ was all "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!" The fact that TJ came in and sort of had his back was probably helped him more than anyone.

Lou Bega
04-19-2011, 12:38 PM
To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him to.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anymore ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?

Tyler Hansbrough.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:39 PM
Seriously, Ford looked like an honest to goodness point guard, only at one point did he get in the air and then force a pass and even then it was to someone who was wide open. He had that nice baseline drive where he kicked to Paul who was open, but hesitated on the corner 3.

BillS
04-19-2011, 12:39 PM
To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him to.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anymore ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?

OK, now, come on. I've been silent on the whole "wasn't everyone who rode the pine under JOB really fantastic and he was too stupid to see it" movement, but this is beyond ridiculous.

TJ did a good job last night, but bear in mind he had his moments under JOB as well. He played minimal minutes, had other people on the floor to be threats, and worked out. That doesn't indicate he is some really good player whose only flaw was to be ruined by The Great Satan.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:39 PM
Tyler Hansbrough.

Tyler's career is still too young to have been ruined by playing under JOB.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:40 PM
Honestly, what surprised me was TJ gave the ball up to Dun and Josh. That surprised me. The offense in the second unit works well when everyone shares the ball. And TJ did that. Which is strangely unlike TJ.

I also thought his demeanor the fact that he was calm helped the team a lot. When AJ was all "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!" The fact that TJ came in and sort of had his back was probably helped him more than anyone.

Well Ford has played well in the playoffs in the past.

xIndyFan
04-19-2011, 01:33 PM
thought TJ played well. especially given the lack of conditioning.

but if DC is out, the pacers are in trouble big time. AJ is just not playing that well. i like sookie's OMG OMG OMG comment. it sums up pretty well how AJ looked. just kind of overwhelmed by the whole playoff thing.

IF DC can play, then he needs to play. if not, AJ starts and TJ backs him up. hope AJ plays well enough. this is a trial by fire that the kids are going to have to deal with. next year will be so much better for any lumps taken now.

plus lance is learning the consequences of being a jerk. he could be playing now instead of sitting in a suit. hopefully that will assist in the growning up process.

KingGeorge
04-19-2011, 02:34 PM
I recently sprained my ankle playing basketball so I feel DC's pain right now.

Just being able to walk on it is a good sign, and it seemed he was able to get some acceleration at halftime but was bothering him to much.

I'm glad that we have the two days rest so he can ice the ankle, and I wouldn't be surprised if he plays Thursday.

However, if he doesn't play, I wouldn't mind seeing T.J. Ford getting the start over Price.

I'm not going to say Price was the reason we lost the game, but he definitely did not help the cause either.

He had 5 turnovers on 3-8 shooting, with a +/- of -17.

T.J. Ford +7
Darren Collison +6

With that being said, WE NEED YOU DARREN!!! Get healthy soon!

jcouts
04-19-2011, 02:42 PM
I thought TJ played better than AJ.

I'm just wondering if it's better to start TJ and at least keep the chemistry of the 2nd unit intact with AJ. I wouldn't be opposed to that strategy.

Hicks
04-19-2011, 02:47 PM
I, too, wonder if it would be better to start TJ and let AJ stick to his usual role. It's a gamble, though.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm hoping we won't have to make that decision...

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 02:50 PM
I, too, wonder if it would be better to start TJ and let AJ stick to his usual role. It's a gamble, though.

My guess is it would be six one way, and half a dozen the other.

The silver lining to the Collison injury cloud is that we weren't ever going to win the point guard match-up anyway.

From what (very) little I've heard, I still think Collison is going to play.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 02:51 PM
My guess is it would be six one way, and half a dozen the other.

The silver lining to the Collison injury cloud is that we weren't ever going to win the point guard match-up anyway.

From what (very) little I've heard, I still think Collison is going to play.

Agreed.

He said something like 90% of the time with that injury he would have come back in the second half, but he just couldn't get it to feel right. My guess is that it tightened up at half time and that's why he couldn't come back.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 03:00 PM
I thought TJ played better than AJ.

I'm just wondering if it's better to start TJ and at least keep the chemistry of the 2nd unit intact with AJ. I wouldn't be opposed to that strategy.

TJ was better than AJ when AJ was all...:onozomg:

However, TJ was not better than AJ was, during the last six minutes of that game. Price was fantastic. Really Really Jekyll and Hyde performance.

I mean, if you really look at what Price did during that stretch..
Set up Hansbrough for one of Hans' jumpshot, twice. (Although Tyler didn't make either.)
Made a three to beat the shot clock
Made a beautiful pass to Foster in the post, and Foster went to the line
The hustle play
Made a great pass to Granger on a backcourt cut, Granger went to the line
Got fouled on the three pointer, made the foul shots

The only other time the Pacers put points on the board was when PG was fouled when he went to the basket.

So, essentially, anything positive the pacers did in that stretch on the offensive end of the floor, Price was heavily involved


Ford calmed everyone down and didn't do anything stupid. But you go with Price if you have to go with either. I don't think AJ will poo on himself again, but if he does..hopefully Ford will come into the game and not do anything stupid again.

I also like putting Ford with Dun and Josh if Ford will give up the ball. I think, if played with the first unit, we'd see more "bad TJ." Starting really doesn't bother me as much as finishing. If we're stuck with Price and Ford, Price needs to finish.

That all said..I'm hoping DC is healthy enough to go. It helps with everything, especially team chemistry and morale, if DC is ready to go. I don't want Vogel to have to make a decision.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 03:02 PM
AJ made a couple "I just yanked that out of my butthole" shots Sookie. Otherwise he was pretty terrible all night.

I truly believe we would have continued pulling away from the Bulls towards half time if DC didn't go down.

BillS
04-19-2011, 03:03 PM
I also like putting Ford with Dun and Josh if Ford will give up the ball. I think, if played with the first unit, we'd see more "bad TJ."

This.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 03:05 PM
BTW TJ is still our best defensive PG. That was the biggest thing I noticed last night. Colison has been OK this series, mostly hidden. Price has been bad. Ford though was in the face of Bogans or Brewer or Korver whenever they touched it.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 03:10 PM
AJ made a couple "I just yanked that out of my butthole" shots Sookie. Otherwise he was pretty terrible all night.

I truly believe we would have continued pulling away from the Bulls towards half time if DC didn't go down.

Not in the last six minutes he wasn't. I don't know what changed it. Whether Vogel talked to him (if he did, another check on the "good for players list") Or if Dahntay talked to him, or if the fact that Ford wasn't playing like bad TJ calmed him down, or if he just got himself out of the crazy AJ mode on his own...he was a completely different player. I just laid it out for you. The only positive thing the team did that didn't involve Price either creating or scoring, was when PG went to the line.

We might have continued pulling them away. But turning the ball over and taking bad shots is what Collison had been continuing to do in crunch time. Where as Price played well in crunch time..If he had been anything other than "sucks" in the last 3 minutes or if we make our foul shots and don't get two terrible calls against us, we win anyway.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 03:12 PM
Collison only has 2 turnovers for the whole series.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 03:17 PM
Collison only has 2 turnovers for the whole series.

So you think DC has been good in crunch time, the last two times he's been in crunch time?

Look, I agree, we keep our lead heading into half time with an uninjured Collison, instead of having it shrink because Price decided to share the ball with the team in white.

But the last two times we've been in the situation, up around 10 with five minutes or less remaining, the other team charged back, largely because DC was trying to do too much and made some costly mistakes, whether it be bad shots or turnovers (in the NY game)

My point was about crunch time. I don't think DC would have played as well as Price did in the crunch, and we may have lost our lead then. Maybe not, but it's something that happened the last two times we've been in that situation.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 03:22 PM
We don't know for sure how DC would have responded in the crunch. What we do know for sure is that AJ entering the game sparked a 19-5 Bulls run.

cdash
04-19-2011, 03:24 PM
To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him too.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anyone more ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?

Yeah, I defended the guy as not being as bad as we made him out to be...but, uh, he was every bit as bad as most made him out to be, and maybe worse.

rock747
04-19-2011, 03:29 PM
We NEED DC..... any news on his injury??

Sookie
04-19-2011, 03:33 PM
We don't know for sure how DC would have responded in the crunch. What we do know for sure is that AJ entering the game sparked a 19-5 Bulls run.


Yes but we are discussing "well, we would have won had DC not been injured" which is a hypotheical..and I'm saying.. well..we don't know that either, 10 point leads haven't exactly been safe with him. I think past performance is a good indication of what might have happened. Not to mention, Price was significantly better at crunch time than DC has been lately.

*Not bashing DC here. I'm one of the few that been very much on DC's side throughout the bashing that went on here. And he's playing well against Rose. I'm just saying, despite the fail of epic proportions that Price put on in the 2nd and 3rd. He was great in the fourth and made up for it. It was a 2 point game with thirty seconds left, largely because of AJ. And he made a lot more plays than just "throwing a few prayers up"

And, I think a big Bulls run was coming at some point, whether DC or AJ was in the game or not. Because quite frankly, great teams will go on runs like that. The Bulls have gone on that run the past three times we've played them. It's pretty logical that they would have done it again.

Anthem
04-19-2011, 03:54 PM
I truly believe we would have continued pulling away from the Bulls towards half time if DC didn't go down.
I completely buy into this.

Hicks
04-19-2011, 04:15 PM
I completely buy into this.

I'm not convinced, but I sure as hell wish I would have been able to find out.

BPump33
04-19-2011, 04:35 PM
MikeWellsNBA

Vogel said he's going to with the mind frame that they'll be without Collison in Game 3

MikeWellsNBA

Collison said he plans to play if he's anywhere between 60-70 percent healthy.

Doddage
04-19-2011, 04:39 PM
Ugh, damn you cameraman.

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 04:39 PM
To build on that, I honestly thought Ford played well last night. This simplifying of the offense has probably helped him too.

How many careers has Jim O'Brien ruined? Was anyone more ruined by playing under him than TJ Ford?


Every player was ruined

Doddage
04-19-2011, 04:41 PM
Every player was ruined
Not sure if serious...

I Love P
04-19-2011, 04:41 PM
He's gonna play were going to win game 3 then Saturday's game becomes HUGE.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 04:42 PM
I mean...he's gotta at least try to go right?

Sookie
04-19-2011, 04:48 PM
I mean...he's gotta at least try to go right?

DC is a tough kid, I think he'll try.

BPump33
04-19-2011, 04:48 PM
MikeWellsNBA

Collison: "If I can do more than jog, maybe not at full strength, I know Iím going to play."

Strummer
04-19-2011, 04:51 PM
I thought TJ looked really good on offense. He was making nice crisp passes to the open guys. If Collison is out, I'd like to see TJ get starter minutes if his conditioning allows it. I was wishing he was in there at the end of the game.

I'm wondering if a healthy Collison/Ford duo could have put us over the top in both games.

owl
04-19-2011, 04:56 PM
TJ should have started the second half and had AJ come off the bench like he normally does.

KingGeorge
04-19-2011, 04:56 PM
I would rather have a 60-70 percent jogging Collison than A.J Price at this point.

BPump33
04-19-2011, 04:58 PM
I thought TJ looked really good on offense. He was making nice crisp passes to the open guys. If Collison is out, I'd like to see TJ get starter minutes if his conditioning allows it. I was wishing he was in there at the end of the game.


Was that when AJ hit the three or when he got fouled on the three? Or the two times he hit Tyler for wide open jumpers? I'm confused.

I thought AJ had a VERY rough patch in the second quarter, but I thought he kept us in the game down the stretch. I could be wrong.

xIndyFan
04-19-2011, 05:03 PM
jmo, but asking TJ to play starter's minutes after sitting for half the season is asking the impossible. there is no way that TJ is in any kind of actual game shape. the best you can hope to get out of TJ is short shifts like he had in game 2.

in some ways, being out of shape might be a good thing for TJ's play. since he cannot run, he has to stand and run the offense. less dominating the ball because he is physically unable to do so.

Strummer
04-19-2011, 05:05 PM
Was that when AJ hit the three or when he got fouled on the three? Or the two times he hit Tyler for wide open jumpers? I'm confused.

I prefer pass first point guards. It's great when AJ scores but he tends to try and become the offense when he's in there. TJ had the ball moving when he was in.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 05:07 PM
I prefer pass first point guards. It's great when AJ scores but he tends to try and become the offense when he's in there. TJ had the ball moving when he was in.

Dun and Josh had the ball moving, Ford gave them the ball.

And by passes, do you mean the great pass to Foster for a layup, in which Foster got fouled and went to the line. Or the great backdoor pass he made to Granger, in which Granger got fouled and went to the line.

or the two times he got Hansbrough for wide open jumpers.

He was terrible last three minutes of the second and the third. That's not debatable. And heck, I wouldn't have put him back in. But Vogel did, and he played great at the end of the game. That's not debatable either.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 05:11 PM
Born Ready missed his time to shine. I hope he realizes this; but he is probably to busy smoking weed and listening to Gucci Mane.

Along with Danny, Josh, and Rush... Well I don't know if they like Gucci or not.

Strummer
04-19-2011, 05:13 PM
Dun and Josh had the ball moving, Ford gave them the ball.

And by passes, do you mean the great pass to Foster for a layup, in which Foster got fouled and went to the line. Or the great backdoor pass he made to Granger, in which Granger got fouled and went to the line.

or the two times he got Hansbrough for wide open jumpers.

Ya know, I went out of my way not to mention AJ in my first post just so I wouldn't get you riled up. And here you come anyway. I thought Ford looked really good running the offense. I'd like to see more of him. I think that'll give us a better chance of winning. To me that's the important thing.

Doddage
04-19-2011, 05:24 PM
I thought TJ looked really good on offense. He was making nice crisp passes to the open guys. If Collison is out, I'd like to see TJ get starter minutes if his conditioning allows it. I was wishing he was in there at the end of the game.

I'm wondering if a healthy Collison/Ford duo could have put us over the top in both games.
Price gives us a different look off the bench at PG. I'm not a huge fan of him, but he's not scared to shoot the ball and it seems like that translates into him hitting some pretty big shots for us.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 05:28 PM
Ya know, I went out of my way not to mention AJ in my first post just so I wouldn't get you riled up. And here you come anyway. I thought Ford looked really good running the offense. I'd like to see more of him. I think that'll give us a better chance of winning. To me that's the important thing.

I'm not riled up, I just think the position is odd.

TJ played much better than the way Price played at the end of the 2nd and begining of the 3rd. But that's only because he didn't do anything too stupid, was calm, and gave the ball to Dun and Josh to run the offense. As opposed to Price's freaking out and epic 5 turnovers in 5 minutes.

However, Price played much much better in the fourth then Ford played. Scoring wise, and running the offense.

So to me, if we're rating their performances and what Vogel should have done. It's pretty obvious, looking back, that with the performance from both PGs, that putting Price back in was the correct call. (It's one that, quite frankly, I'm not sure I would have made. But after seeing it happen, +1 Vogel)

I might suggest, that if Vogel had put TJ in at the end of the second. And let him finish the quarter, that might have changed the outcome of the game. It probably would have given AJ a little while to digest "the moment" and maybe he wouldn't have pooed himself. But there was no way that Vogel could know that AJ was going to get so overwhelmed. Good note for the coaching staff, AJ Price apparently does not like surprises.

edit: DC says he expects to play, Vogel says he's not as confident. I've got this cute mental image of DC hopping onto the court. :D (I'm laughing so I don't cry..)

pacers_heath
04-19-2011, 05:36 PM
TJ is our best point guard on the roster right now. If TJ gets the bulk of the minutes we have a better shot at winning the series. He's also probably the only player on the roster i don't cringe when the ball is in his hands during crunch time. TJ has gotten screwed over the last couple of seasons under O'Brien. I think you could argue that he's the most talented player on the roster.

You might not like him as your starting PG, but he can score at will 5x better than anyone else on the team and that's something we have REALLY been lacking in the series. Chicago has also not planned on having to deal with him. He could really be a game changer if you ask me

BringJackBack
04-19-2011, 05:41 PM
If TJ was anywhere near that good than he'd have been traded at the deadline for something decent. He wouldn't have absolutely zero trade value.

pacers_heath
04-19-2011, 05:43 PM
If TJ was anywhere near that good than he'd have been traded at the deadline for something decent. He wouldn't have absolutely zero trade value.

it's only because his contract is awful and his numbers sucked because of his terrible system he played in. not to mention larry was not the most reasonable in dealing him. he was regarded as one hell of a player two years ago before he played in O'brien's system and it's silly to think he's completely regressed. he's been better than Collison when given minutes

also:

1) he hasn't been given a chance under vogel
2) he's probably a much better player in the playoffs when he actually is motivated and has the most experience of anyone on the team save Foster
3) he's the only guy that can create his own shot! we really need a go-to guy on the court. we could even play him at the 2 for this reason.

he's way too good to sit on the bench for this team

BillS
04-19-2011, 05:49 PM
he was regarded as one hell of a player two years ago before he played in O'brien's system and it's silly to think he's completely regressed.

Really? And here I was thinking he was a player who never seemed to trust his play after coming back from an injury, to the extent that he lost his starting position on the team he was with at the time and was extremely unhappy with it.

Silly me.

pacers_heath
04-19-2011, 05:54 PM
Really? And here I was thinking he was a player who never seemed to trust his play after coming back from an injury, to the extent that he lost his starting position on the team he was with at the time and was extremely unhappy with it.

Silly me.

he's been nothing but professional for the team since this happened, which shows his maturity because this really hurt his career.

he can also bank half court shots at will, which yields yet ANOTHER secret weapon

pacers_heath
04-19-2011, 05:58 PM
i will never see eye to eye with everyone about TJ on here. he's shown he's got just as much ability as Collison as a starting PG, probably more, but Collison gets coddled while we just gave up on Ford because it didn't fit O'Brien's genius system at the time

question his judgement on the court all you want, but it's still better than DC

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 06:05 PM
i will never see eye to eye with everyone about TJ on here. he's shown he's got just as much ability as Collison as a starting PG, probably more, but Collison gets coddled while we just gave up on Ford because it didn't fit O'Brien's genius system at the time

question his judgement on the court all you want, but it's still better than DC

Right now there is no question that TJ is the best pg on this team. He has been all year. DC is the future and much cheaper. That is why he gets the PT and why TJ has been shelved. Financial decision all the way.
In the end, most will admit they think DC will be better than TJ. He's just not there yet!

ilive4sports
04-19-2011, 06:10 PM
i will never see eye to eye with everyone about TJ on here. he's shown he's got just as much ability as Collison as a starting PG, probably more, but Collison gets coddled while we just gave up on Ford because it didn't fit O'Brien's genius system at the time

question his judgement on the court all you want, but it's still better than DC

Wait, we are talking about the same TJ that just refused to pass the ball to Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough right? Come on now, there is a good reason he got benched for AJ Price and then even Lance Stephenson. And its more than let the young guys play. Its because he isn't that good. He has been extremely professional in his time here, but he is not as good as DC.

Bball
04-19-2011, 06:20 PM
Does a 60-80% DC help us? ....Or do we need him at 100% (or as close to it as possible after an 82 game NBA season)?

rock747
04-19-2011, 06:57 PM
TJ should have started the second half and had AJ come off the bench like he normally does.

I agree with this 100%. I think it threw off the rhythm of the rotations. I would rather have TJ start if collison can't go Thursday.

pacers_heath
04-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Wait, we are talking about the same TJ that just refused to pass the ball to Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough right? Come on now, there is a good reason he got benched for AJ Price and then even Lance Stephenson. And its more than let the young guys play. Its because he isn't that good. He has been extremely professional in his time here, but he is not as good as DC.

what? Tyler and George didn't even play when O'Brien was here. He's definitely better than DC, no question.

Major Cold
04-19-2011, 07:04 PM
When TJ was in there we were running sets that we have ran since JOB was here. We run them sometimes, but not near as much as we did with TJ.

While Dun and Josh was apart of the sets, it was TJ who brought the ball up. He was apart of the offense and did not demand the ball to be effective. He moved well without the ball and so did DC. AJ does not move well without the ball.

BringJackBack
04-19-2011, 07:07 PM
Lol, TJ Ford is not as good as Darren Collison. He's never gotten his chance, but Solomon Jones never got his chance as the starting center either. I don't buy that excuse. If he was so good, he'd find his way on the court.

Or he would have been bought out. He had so little interest that he didn't want to get bought out.

Major Cold
04-19-2011, 08:08 PM
Lol, TJ Ford is not as good as Darren Collison. He's never gotten his chance, but Solomon Jones never got his chance as the starting center either. I don't buy that excuse. If he was so good, he'd find his way on the court.

Or he would have been bought out. He had so little interest that he didn't want to get bought out.


I think for so long everyone was clamoring for AJ and Lance to get their shot when JOB was here. And the excuses were that... "If he was so good, he'd find his way on the court."

And the logic was that JOB does not know what he has and the system is messed up.

JOB is fired...new system is in...but Lance gets a nod ahead of TJ? Why? Cause we wanted to know what we had? What about the playoffs? Cause if TJ laid a rusty egg last night you better believe I put the blame on Bird or Vogel or whoever made the decison to tell him to go to Houston on road trips.

TJ is not a starter, I realize that. But he is a good backup. And having Lance ahead of him for so long was shocking.

Jon Theodore
04-19-2011, 08:25 PM
I'll echo what others have said, TJ looked great all considering...and I haven't even thought of how badly O'Brien may have affected TJ Ford.

It would be interesting to see TJ get some real minutes and play extremely well....that would really put O'briens awfulness in perspective...but it probably won't happen.

We are in trouble if Price has to play 30 minutes...

Jon Theodore
04-19-2011, 08:29 PM
Now that I think about it....TJ Ford is probably a great choice as a back-up PG to Darren Collison. TJ is one of the few guys in this league who can get close to Collisons speed and he is also more of a scorer, like Collison.

I would have really liked to see a Collison/TJ point guard rotation under Vogel. I guess wanting to develop youth was obviously the route the Pacers took, but I think that rotation could have been good...certainly could have been better than Collison/AJ rotation has been.

BillS
04-20-2011, 11:09 AM
he can also bank half court shots at will, which yields yet ANOTHER secret weapon

At will? :lmao:

Gamble1
04-20-2011, 11:31 AM
I really hope AJ develops into a alright backup but right now I am not buying he is a NBA backup pg at all.

The guy is averaging 1 assist a game in the playoffs. Thats 38 minutes played and 2 assist total. Seriously thats doing a good job at running the offense.

I see very little reason why he should keep his job this off season. We will have the money to sign a decent backup and this team IMO can ill afford to have 2 young pgs developing at the same time. One of which shows very little promise at all.

cdash
04-20-2011, 11:43 AM
I really hope AJ develops into a alright backup but right now I am not buying he is a NBA backup pg at all.

The guy is averaging 1 assist a game in the playoffs. Thats 38 minutes played and 2 assist total. Seriously thats doing a good job at running the offense.

I see very little reason why he should keep his job this off season. We will have the money to sign a decent backup and this team IMO can ill afford to have 2 young pgs developing at the same time. One of which shows very little promise at all.

He was awful when DC first went down. Plain awful. No way of getting around it. He's a chucker and he doesn't get a whole lot of assists. That being said, he hasn't been bad as the backup point guard. He fits well in that unit and he comes dirt cheap. He really only got about half the season of having a real, established role, so to think he is done developing is silly. I don't think spending extra money on a backup point guard is a smart or necessary thing to do. DC is going to play the lion's share of those minutes anyway. I'm not giving up on Price yet. People so quickly forget how young these guys are. There has been (and will continue to be) growing pains. We wanted a young team, we got one. This comes with the territory.

BRushWithDeath
04-20-2011, 12:07 PM
While I respect Collison's desire to play hurt, I am not all that stoked to see a player whose primary (only?) attribute is speed play without the ability to run.

BPump33
04-20-2011, 12:11 PM
While I respect Collison's desire to play hurt, I am not all that stoked to see a player whose primary (only?) attribute is speed play without the ability to run.

I tend to agree, but hopefully the adrenaline from the situation/atmosphere helps with the pain. I just hope he doesn't screw himself up for Game 4 if that's the case.

Gamble1
04-20-2011, 12:23 PM
He was awful when DC first went down. Plain awful. No way of getting around it. He's a chucker and he doesn't get a whole lot of assists. That being said, he hasn't been bad as the backup point guard. He fits well in that unit and he comes dirt cheap. He really only got about half the season of having a real, established role, so to think he is done developing is silly. I don't think spending extra money on a backup point guard is a smart or necessary thing to do. DC is going to play the lion's share of those minutes anyway. I'm not giving up on Price yet. People so quickly forget how young these guys are. There has been (and will continue to be) growing pains. We wanted a young team, we got one. This comes with the territory.
Shocker here but I totally disagree. This team needs an experienced back up pg who can defend at a high level and run the offense.

Collison may get the lions share of the minutes but the guy is small and will likely get hurt during an 82 game season. We can pinch the pennies all we want but it makes no sense to do this when we have as much money off the books as we do next year. Pay a backup 3-5 mill and cut AJ.

AJ is a chucker and HE DOESN"T SHOOT THE BALL WELL. That is the worse combination IMO. He may do well in short stints but every guy in the NBA can point to a game or two and say the same thing. There is absolutely no reason to keep him.

I am not a big Jarret Jack fan but he would be 10 times better than AJ at this point.

Edit: OR Farmar

MagicRat
04-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Vogel was on the Dakich show and said DC is still really sore and is doubtful.....

Sookie
04-20-2011, 03:03 PM
He was awful when DC first went down. Plain awful. No way of getting around it. He's a chucker and he doesn't get a whole lot of assists. That being said, he hasn't been bad as the backup point guard. He fits well in that unit and he comes dirt cheap. He really only got about half the season of having a real, established role, so to think he is done developing is silly. I don't think spending extra money on a backup point guard is a smart or necessary thing to do. DC is going to play the lion's share of those minutes anyway. I'm not giving up on Price yet. People so quickly forget how young these guys are. There has been (and will continue to be) growing pains. We wanted a young team, we got one. This comes with the territory.

Right, he was awful. What was it..4 turnovers in 4 minutes. Yea...He was, however, really good at the end. Which seems to have been forgotten. And it wasn't just making shots, he was making some really good plays too. As I pointed out in a different thread, Hibbert was terrible the entire game (and certainly had stretches worse than Price this season) and Hansbrough was terrible himself, and neither had a redeeming fourth quarter. And besides that, if they could be somewhat competitive in terms of rebounds we probably win. But the only people who get a mention are Granger and Price.

He was certainly a chucker this year. The funny thing is, Price has never been a chucker. Which is just odd. And I don't know why a player would suddenly change their mentality. Especially since he obviously had more freedom at UConn.

I'm not happy with the way he played this season except for flashes of really good play, but I know how he's capable of playing, and I'm a fan of that player. And I'll stick up for him, because given the circumstances, I think people have been unusually harsh on him (and on and off with DC..now it's a lovefest..for the same exact player who is just making shots now. But previously..the bashing against DC was unbearable)

I would imagine, a summer of actually getting to improve his game, get himself in a good place mentally and physically, and a full season of an established role with a good coach, would help him a lot. Just like it would help any young player.

I wouldn't waste money on a backup point guard either. We'd be spending more money on the backup, a guy that'll get around 15 minutes anyway, then on DC himself. Backup point guards don't make or break teams. If both play to their potential and develop well, we've got a pretty good pair of point guards anyway.

Eleazar
04-20-2011, 04:24 PM
In the 4th quarter Price played every bit as good, probably better, than Collison has played at any point in this series. He was making everyone on the team better, and was clutch. Other than a short period of bad play Price has been good and even great at times in this series.

Gamble1
04-20-2011, 04:37 PM
But the only people who get a mention are Granger and Price.

He was certainly a chucker this year. The funny thing is, Price has never been a chucker. Which is just odd. And I don't know why a player would suddenly change their mentality. Especially since he obviously had more freedom at UConn.

I'm not happy with the way he played this season except for flashes of really good play, but I know how he's capable of playing, and I'm a fan of that player. And I'll stick up for him, because given the circumstances, I think people have been unusually harsh on him (and on and off with DC..now it's a lovefest..for the same exact player who is just making shots now. But previously..the bashing against DC was unbearable)

I would imagine, a summer of actually getting to improve his game, get himself in a good place mentally and physically, and a full season of an established role with a good coach, would help him a lot. Just like it would help any young player.

I wouldn't waste money on a backup point guard either. We'd be spending more money on the backup, a guy that'll get around 15 minutes anyway, then on DC himself. Backup point guards don't make or break teams. If both play to their potential and develop well, we've got a pretty good pair of point guards anyway.
AJ is attempting about the same number of shots per minute as he was last year. He has become a chucker under 2 different coaches and I see no reason to waste 800,000 bucks on a guy who is underperforming.

This isn't about being overly harsh on any player its just the facts. The guy is not that good. Maybe he was in college but he hasn't shown that he can translate well to the NBA. Flashes of greatness doesn't cut it for me. Fred Jones showed flashes of being a good scorer but he couldn't string it together consistently. ITs the same thing when you look at Price.

IF DC goes down for a significant amount of time next year we probably don't make the playoffs with Price. We could change that if we have somebody like Jack or Farmar.

McKeyFan
04-20-2011, 05:00 PM
As a few posters noted about a month ago, we don't have a point guard.

So, whether it's DC or AJ doesn't really bother me much. Both struggle seeing the floor and making good passes. I think AJ has better potential to see the floor but he has seemed a bit too hellbent on shooting first.

That said, AJ is better in the clutch. And, in this series, we need clutch play desperately. Therefore, I'm actually a bit pleased to see AJ in at the end Thursday night (if that's how it goes down).

To add to that priority, even with all his liabilities, TJ Ford probably is indeed the best player on our team at creating his own shot. It will be interesting if gets a chance to use that skill in the series. Sure beats Granger throwing up a perimeter shot with two guys on him.

righteouscool
04-20-2011, 05:15 PM
I don't know. I've been happy with DC lately. He had a rough stretch, but he's a second year player in a new system. That will happen.

naptownmenace
04-20-2011, 06:02 PM
However, if he doesn't play, I wouldn't mind seeing T.J. Ford getting the start over Price.

I'm not going to say Price was the reason we lost the game, but he definitely did not help the cause either.

He had 5 turnovers on 3-8 shooting, with a +/- of -17.

T.J. Ford +7
Darren Collison +6

With that being said, WE NEED YOU DARREN!!! Get healthy soon!

This. At this point in the postseason, I think it's clear that AJ is a backup PG. You could pretty much say the same for TJ Ford but TJ at least has experience and defense on his side. He's not a great defender but I thought his defense in game 2 was excellent. Even when he was matched with Korver, he stayed right in his lap and forced him to give up the ball.

It would be better if DC can play but I wonder how well DC can play with a bum ankle anyway. He was succeeding against Rose mainly because of his speed. I'm sure his ankle injury will negate that. If they decided to just go with TJ as the starter, I'd be more than fine with that.

Kemo
04-20-2011, 06:34 PM
TJ is our best point guard on the roster right now. If TJ gets the bulk of the minutes we have a better shot at winning the series. He's also probably the only player on the roster i don't cringe when the ball is in his hands during crunch time. TJ has gotten screwed over the last couple of seasons under O'Brien. I think you could argue that he's the most talented player on the roster.

You might not like him as your starting PG, but he can score at will 5x better than anyone else on the team and that's something we have REALLY been lacking in the series. Chicago has also not planned on having to deal with him. He could really be a game changer if you ask me
I can agree with SOME of what you are saying..

My main thing is.. I believe in the 1st half ,that TJ should maybe play 3 or 4 minutes to get warmed up while providing a spark off the bench..

THEN .. depending on how the game is going early in the 4th quarter, and how DC and AJ are playing , I would honestly let TJ play the last 4/5 minutes of the 4th ..

One thing I will say about TJ .. he IS clutch in end of game situations..
And as you said, Chicago hasn't made a gameplan for him..

Kemo
04-20-2011, 06:37 PM
i will never see eye to eye with everyone about TJ on here. he's shown he's got just as much ability as Collison as a starting PG, probably more, but Collison gets coddled while we just gave up on Ford because it didn't fit O'Brien's genius system at the time

question his judgement on the court all you want, but it's still better than DC


ya know... They DO say , that a point guard is a direct extension of the head coach ..

Ransom
04-20-2011, 11:58 PM
While I liked Ford in limited playing time, I loved Price's hustle and his calm down the stretch. He hit some big shots, which he knows how to do from his time at UConn.