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View Full Version : Vogel needs to be the coach next year



vnzla81
04-19-2011, 01:00 AM
I wasn't sure about Vogel until today, the guy lost DC and was still few minutes away from winning game two, I love his in game adjustments and his defense, today I was amazed in how he used PG and how calm he was during the game, I think this guy deserves to be the coach for next year, what do you guys think)

Evan_The_Dude
04-19-2011, 01:14 AM
I say let the series end first and see how they play the remaining games. If they play like this every game (even if they lose), it would be almost stupid not to bring him back. We have a core, and we may have a coach that knows what to do with that core. As of now it looks like we're a marquee player away from kicking Chicago's a**.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 01:14 AM
Agreed. I don't want Mike Brown. I don't have any faith he would have inspired our team the way Vogel has in game 1 and 2. Methinks if we let Vogel get away we'll be regretting it some day soon.

Hicks
04-19-2011, 01:20 AM
I'm sold. The only way I change my mind is if this series ends in embarrassing fashion, which I doubt it will.

gummy
04-19-2011, 01:25 AM
I'm sold too. I've been riding with one foot on and one foot off the Vogel bandwagon. I'm all the way in now. Hell, let me go change my avatar to celebrate!

Jose Slaughter
04-19-2011, 01:26 AM
I agree... what he has done this group is amazing.

This town is gonna be Pacer crazy soon enough.

15th parallel
04-19-2011, 01:34 AM
Let Vogel grow with the team. He's young, but so our current core.

He has won the team over, a team that had its share of extreme ups and downs this season. That's a testament to how good he is as a coach.

Strummer
04-19-2011, 01:36 AM
I like Vogel a lot but I'm not going to be disappointed if he doesn't get the job. I think it comes down to his vision of where the team needs to go. He needs to be on the same page as the front office.

Oh, and he has to convince them that he has a broad enough understanding of basketball strategy. That he knows more than just the Pitino/JOB way.

But yeah, I like what he's done with the team. But there's really not any way for us to know how much of that was him and how much was influenced by Bird and others. If it's all Vogel then it's pretty impressive.

Constellations
04-19-2011, 01:38 AM
Vogel needs to be back next season. Another coach is only going to the hurt the team's chemistry for the meantime. 3 coaches, with 3 different styles and mission statements, can mentally work against a team.

Day-V
04-19-2011, 01:40 AM
I was sold at "Stay Tuned".

joeyd
04-19-2011, 01:40 AM
Posted this in another thread, but maybe we should start a "Bring Frank Back" chant at the end of Game 4.

docpaul
04-19-2011, 01:45 AM
I wasn't sure about Vogel until today, the guy lost DC and was still few minutes away from winning game two, I love his in game adjustments and his defense, today I was amazed in how he used PG and how calm he was during the game, I think this guy deserves to be the coach for next year, what do you guys think)

As much as I love what he's doing, I think you step back and make these decisions objectively. We should interview everyone and then measure him against a real yard stick, ie not JOB.

If we go through a *real* interview process this off season, and end up selecting him, then I'll be more than satisfied. Selecting him without a full, explicit search, IMO would be more emotional or reactionary to other bites he might get.

If he were to come, we definitely need a 1st rate big man assistant coach, though. Not clear to me how well he'll be able to bring on a veteran coaching team around him.

ilive4sports
04-19-2011, 01:59 AM
I have been saying I would like a more experienced coach for awhile now, but I have changed my mind. The composure he is showing in the playoffs is great. He is getting this team to play right with the number one team. I am all for bringing Coach Vogel back.

Eleazar
04-19-2011, 02:00 AM
I agree, and get him a good assistant coach that is a genius X's and O's guy.

presto123
04-19-2011, 02:02 AM
If he doesn't come back it will be a travesty. A sham. A mockery. It will be a traveshamockery:laugh: I've wanted him back since well a long time ago:)

Psyren
04-19-2011, 02:02 AM
I have to say I'm sold as well.

He inspires this team, or so it seems. I'm excited to see what he can do with them as we develop and get more experience, and hopefully add another key piece or two.

And as Trader Joe said, I think if we let him go we'll end up regretting it.

Sookie
04-19-2011, 02:05 AM
We questioned the guys ability to teach defense, and the Pacers are playing FANTASTIC defense.

Get a vet assistant to help out with offense and defense, but I'm interested in seeing the system Vogel would come up with. Some of his set plays are fantastic.

And he can read the guys well (knows when to yell vs when to be positive) and has each and every one of these guys believing that they can and should beat the Bulls. (And quite frankly, they should have..)

pizza guy
04-19-2011, 02:09 AM
I've been in favor of it from the start. Those first 9 games and the press conferences told me what I wanted to know. The man understands that coaching is a combination of strategy, confidence, timing, and tact. There are so many facets that go into the job, and Frank seems to have the knack for it. Some guys are just meant to be coaches.

If Vogel is not back, I will be disappointed.

Nobody wants to play against Frank Vogel...NOBODY.

Doddage
04-19-2011, 02:11 AM
Posted this in another thread, but maybe we should start a "Bring Frank Back" chant at the end of Game 4.
We can, but it'd be better to do that when the playoffs are over, when we're holding up the trophy.

pizza guy
04-19-2011, 02:11 AM
The one thing I'd love to see is a big man's coach for Roy, Tyler, and Josh. Someone to teach these guys how to use their size to get rebounds and be strong around the hoop. And maybe we draft Kenneth Faried, but that's a different thread.

imawhat
04-19-2011, 02:12 AM
There are a few questionable calls, but that's nitpicking at this point. I think he's earned that interview.

I'm happiest with his rotations and use of players' strengths. I think he's great at both of those things. My choice all series would have been to put George on Rose. Not too many coaches would've tried that, but he did.

Now we're starting to see some defensive and offensive execution in a highly scrutinized series. I think he's outcoached the coach of the year.

Most importantly, I love that he's given our guys the chance to develop. It's been mentioned a million times, but our guys are playoff tested now. How can anyone not look at next season and think we're not going to be considerably improved.

I've seen enough Granger ISOs to fill my life, but he's done a helluva job. And I hadn't even mentioned his ability to motivate players and to get them to believe.

AesopRockOn
04-19-2011, 02:17 AM
We questioned the guys ability to teach defense, and the Pacers are playing FANTASTIC defense.

This. My main concern with Vogel was defense. He got the offense together, fixed the rotations well enough, and got the guys excited to play ball again. But the team defense was pitiful many nights. In these past two games, he has shown that he can get the players ready with a superb team D system and up individual players' intensity. We've seen Rush, DC, PG, and others really bring it defensively. We should still interview and play our hand. But damn it if Vogel doesn't have me eating out of his hand with the way he's prepared these guys to play, out-coaching the probable COTY.

IOW, exactly what imawhat posted above; sorry, quoted Sookie's post before I got to the end.

Speed
04-19-2011, 07:04 AM
He's done a hell of a job, out-coaching a guy who's coach of the year, likely.

O'Braindead
04-19-2011, 07:10 AM
I'm on board. He deserves the job.

The Jackson shimmy
04-19-2011, 07:11 AM
It depends on whom else is available and/or interested...

Roaming Gnome
04-19-2011, 07:32 AM
It depends on whom else is available and/or interested...

Honestly, the names that I hear that are available don't intrigue me like watching how Vogel would grow with this team.

Major Cold
04-19-2011, 08:13 AM
I am warming to the idea more and more.

Before the playoffs I said I would not be disappointed if he was retained. Now I think I would be excited if he was.

GO VOGEL.

bellisimo
04-19-2011, 08:16 AM
Vogel reminds me of Jeff Van Gundy in variety of ways...I can't say what exactly but when I look and listen to his press conferences, JVG just pops up in my head...

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 08:23 AM
I stated after the game that Vogel has won me over and I'll admit I was reluctant all along.

But if I were Bird, I would still open the search up, lets see who is available and who is interested. If Mike Brown or JVG were really interested, that IMO is a tough call.

Regardless if Vogel is our coach for the next 3 or 4 years I'll be happy

Sollozzo
04-19-2011, 08:59 AM
Like Bird said in the Kravitz interview, Vogel will get the first interview and the last interview. And he's basically interviewing for the job this series, which is obviously working in his favor at this point.

I think he's going to be the coach next year and beyond.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 09:00 AM
I stated after the game that Vogel has won me over and I'll admit I was reluctant all along.

But if I were Bird, I would still open the search up, lets see who is available and who is interested. If Mike Brown or JVG were really interested, that IMO is a tough call.

Regardless if Vogel is our coach for the next 3 or 4 years I'll be happy

Dont take this wrong, I am not criticizing your opinion.
But could you explain to me the love affair so many have with Brown and JVG? I see a guy who has been in the broadcast booth for some time now and a guy who didnt even coach his own team. Niether impress me at all.
In regards to Vogel, I think he has done an outstanding job.
Some may disagree, but I would almost always go with an up and comer as a coach (like Vogel) than I would a retread who got fired for not winning.
JVG had a lot of talent in Houston and did little. He had one nice run with the Knicks. To me, he has gotten a lot of respect for one playoff run.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 09:03 AM
Honestly, the names that I hear that are available don't intrigue me like watching how Vogel would grow with this team.

I was trying to figure out how to word my feelings but you stated them perfectly! I see no coach out there who I would get excited for. I usually dont get excited over retreads unless they have a history of winning or turning around franchises. This team is headed in the right direction. Keep Vogel!

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 09:07 AM
Dont take this wrong, I am not criticizing your opinion.
But could you explain to me the love affair so many have with Brown and JVG? I see a guy who has been in the broadcast booth for some time now and a guy who didnt even coach his own team. Niether impress me at all.
In regards to Vogel, I think he has done an outstanding job.
Some may disagree, but I would almost always go with an up and comer as a coach (like Vogel) than I would a retread who got fired for not winning.
JVG had a lot of talent in Houston and did little. He had one nice run with the Knicks. To me, he has gotten a lot of respect for one playoff run.


In a word, Defense. Both are IMO great defensive coaches and that is what I want most of all. Just a personal preference.

I do think your suggestion that Brown and JVG are re-treads is way off base and not based in reality. if you would rather have Vogel, fine, I understand, but Brown and JVG are not retreads or even close.

Pacerized
04-19-2011, 09:16 AM
I wouldn't want anyone to make a major decision like hiring a coach based off a game high, or game low. We're in the playoffs and the way Vogel has the team playing has me on a game high. Let's see how the rest of the series goes and take some time to calm down whenever the season comes to an end. I still just want Bird to be here and pick the best coach possible to take us to the next level and that might be Vogel. If Vogel is hired I hope it's a very short contract, maybe 2 years. In spite of how we feel about him, he won't have any other head coaching jobs waiting for him.

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 09:25 AM
These first two playoff games have been encouraging. I've believed that Vogel has just had "it" since he started.

That said, I don't think these first two games should have changed anything. He should get the first and last interview. If we push it to 7 games, I'd say the job is his, but we aren't there yet.

Right now, I think you have to do your due diligence and see who is interested, what it's going to cost, and in what direction do they want to take this team. I would not be disappointed at all if Vogel got the job, but this team is at a major crossroads right now. I don't want to just give him the job without knowing for sure he's the best option.

threein73
04-19-2011, 09:37 AM
I got on here to start a KEEP FRANK thread, and was glad this was already going.. Last night I went from "we should probably keep him" to "he should DEFINITELY be back". Unfortunately I live in Georgia and won't make it to the two home games, but I would love to hear a "Keep Frank" chant at both games, at the appropriate times (i sure HOPE there are appropriate times!).

Sollozzo
04-19-2011, 09:38 AM
At this point, if he doesn't get the job it will be because another candidate absolutely blows the Pacers front office away. And I just don't think any such available candidate exists.

BPump33
04-19-2011, 10:06 AM
At this point, if he doesn't get the job it will be because another candidate absolutely blows the Pacers front office away. And I just don't think any such available candidate exists.

I said it two weeks ago, I still say it now. Frank gets "it." I was talking with Denari on Saturday about Frank, and his exact words were, "Frank gets it."

The players fight for him, they seem to like him and we are playing competitive basketball against the best team in the NBA. He wants to be here. Let these young guys and young coach gel together and we will continue to improve.

bellisimo
04-19-2011, 10:24 AM
its pretty interesting to see the Bulls fans' take on Vogel..they are comparing him to Vinny Del Negro and think that if we had a coach who wasn't "asleep on the wheel" we'd be up 2-0...

this is the summary of what they're writing on the comments under their newpaper stories on chicagotribune and chicago suntimes...

Kid Minneapolis
04-19-2011, 10:28 AM
I stated after the game that Vogel has won me over and I'll admit I was reluctant all along.

But if I were Bird, I would still open the search up, lets see who is available and who is interested. If Mike Brown or JVG were really interested, that IMO is a tough call.

Regardless if Vogel is our coach for the next 3 or 4 years I'll be happy

If UB has finally come around, you know Vogel is doing something right. ;)

Sollozzo
04-19-2011, 10:34 AM
its pretty interesting to see the Bulls fans' take on Vogel..they are comparing him to Vinny Del Negro and think that if we had a coach who wasn't "asleep on the wheel" we'd be up 2-0...

this is the summary of what they're writing on the comments under their newpaper stories on chicagotribune and chicago suntimes...



What are the specifics they're using to back up that assertion?

BillS
04-19-2011, 10:37 AM
There are some holes in the end-game strategy I'm still not convinced can be closed without an extremely strong offensive assistant. I don't know how you make that part of the interview and selection process.

As far as relationship with the players, I'm mostly sold. Vogel does well in the "encouragement" side, but can he put on the "bad guy" hat and get on players about bad shot selection and not sharing the ball?

I wouldn't be upset if he was back, but I'd bet that when flaws show up the forum will turn on him like a barracuda eating its young. It will be quite interesting to see the usual coach defenders doing their thing for Frank when the knives come out...

pizza guy
04-19-2011, 10:41 AM
its pretty interesting to see the Bulls fans' take on Vogel..they are comparing him to Vinny Del Negro and think that if we had a coach who wasn't "asleep on the wheel" we'd be up 2-0...

this is the summary of what they're writing on the comments under their newpaper stories on chicagotribune and chicago suntimes...

That's strange. I thought Frank had been doing a great job making adjustments and game planning against perhaps the biggest single-man threat in the league this year, and an exceptional defensive team. Frank has gone toe-to-toe with Thibs, in my opinion, but overall talent has won out (not to mention some questionable calls by refs). The simple fact that Frank has taken a less talented, less experienced team, and pushed the #1 seed this hard tells me that he must be doing something right.

Larry Staverman
04-19-2011, 10:43 AM
I've said it several times before and I will say it again Vogel is the right coach for this team. I would like to beef up his assistant core a little but I have liked the way Vogel has handled the team since the first few games he coached.

bellisimo
04-19-2011, 10:50 AM
What are the specifics they're using to back up that assertion?

they're saying we have huge mismatches in low post and that we should not stop till we get every Bulls' Big in foul trouble...they feel that we have a very athletic team and can cause a lot of mismatches for the Bulls but our coach is not taking advantage of any of them...

Sollozzo
04-19-2011, 10:52 AM
I don't really know what they're talking about. Hibbert was in foul trouble last night and the Bulls seemed to be having their way with him. Hansbrough played his game, but just couldn't knock down jumpers like he usually does.

The Bulls have some of the best low post D in the league. I'm just not sure where the "mismatches" are.

Speed
04-19-2011, 11:02 AM
Vogel has the balls to put a 20 yr old rookie on the league MVP, call PG and Hanbroughs number in crunch time. I like his style. I don't know if he can keep a team together over 82 games, but he's coaching his *** off right now. Defensive schemes are creative, offense is right for this talent set and group.

makaveli
04-19-2011, 11:07 AM
Anyone who has ever coached at any level will tell you that to be successful your players have to want to play for you....that's the "it" that Vogel gets. I don't mean a guy who kisses their ***, but a guy who believes in them so much that they will do anything to not let him down. These guys LOVE playing for this man and you can see it on their faces, in their body language and most importantly the way they compete on the court. That is something that can't be "hired" in no matter how big the name or how impressive the resume, and we'd be foolish to just let it walk out the door.

CooperManning
04-19-2011, 11:13 AM
I've always been a skeptic about Vogel's long-term relationship with the team. We all loved him when he started out well, but as the season dragged on, I thought it became clear that we needed a veteran coach.

But after watching these last two games, I don't want Frank to leave. How many times during the game did you notice an adjustment that needed to be made, only to see Frank make it seconds later? That rarely happened to me when JOB was coaching and I would hate to watch another coach that doesn't understand the team's strengths.

Larry knew better than anyone that this team needed to taste the playoffs if it was truly going to grow. I admit, in years past I've been a tank advocate. But this year, I couldn't be happier to have the 15th pick. What this playoff run is going to do is make everyone hungry, Vogel included.

I want this group coming back for a full 82 games next year*. I don't want Darren Collison to have his 5th new head coach going into his third season. Let's add another rookie and a battle-tested vet or two to our young, hungry core and let's see what the Fighting Vogels can pull off.


* - **** the lockout.

duke dynamite
04-19-2011, 11:20 AM
Who would've thought we'd have two Brad Stevens's in the state?

I'm in.

pacergod2
04-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Anyone who has ever coached at any level will tell you that to be successful your players have to want to play for you....that's the "it" that Vogel gets. I don't mean a guy who kisses their ***, but a guy who believes in them so much that they will do anything to not let him down. These guys LOVE playing for this man and you can see it on their faces, in their body language and most importantly the way they compete on the court. That is something that can't be "hired" in no matter how big the name or how impressive the resume, and we'd be foolish to just let it walk out the door.

When developing the respect of his players, he talks to them in a "frank" and truthful manner. He then executes those things he says in game, such as making a change to the starting lineup and sticking with it and giving consistency to the rotations. These players did not believe in Jim because his in game decision making was putrid. They all saw it. They played through it. The players did not believe in what he was trying to convey, because the things he said did not match what they dealt with when it mattered in games.

With Vogel, he made the same changes a lot of the players were hungry for. The players know their strengths and weaknesses, not only individually but collectively as well. Frank came in and he had to make the right decisions to get more out of the players. He is making these decisions and it is allowing the team's efforts to be more productive. The team is playing hard. They are playing the most competitive basketball I have seen out of them in five years. Much of it was JOB, but at the same time, Vogel hasn't gone with the philosophy of "just don't screw it up", instead focusing on "how can this team improve". His adjustments are phenomenal for a first time interim coach. I applaud him for that. He needs Laimbeer as an assistant if we are going to hire him. ;)

Trophy
04-19-2011, 12:12 PM
He's been great.

I'd love for us to bring him back.

The players love him, he loves the players, we're winning and that's what matters.

I think he will be our head coach. He can pick and choose who he wants on his staff also. He seems to be close with most of them like Dan Burke and Jay DeFruscio.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 12:21 PM
If we can't get Adleman, then yes, keep Vogel!

No offense to Vogel lovers, of which I'm one, but we need to put ALL emotions to the side when we make our coaching decision.

Remember what happened to IU football under Bill Lynch? Coached half a season after Hep (R.I.P.) died and won some big games as the interim head coach. After the season he was promoted to head coach. Without question the worst decision in the program's history.

I am not by any means saying Vogel is the equivalent of Lynch (or even close to that level of putrid trash). Just pointing out that temporary success+emotions can cloud the decision making progress.

Can anyone dispute Adleman over Vogel?

redfoster
04-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Sign this man to a 2-year deal TODAY. He deserves it completely.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 12:31 PM
In a word, Defense. Both are IMO great defensive coaches and that is what I want most of all. Just a personal preference.

I do think your suggestion that Brown and JVG are re-treads is way off base and not based in reality. if you would rather have Vogel, fine, I understand, but Brown and JVG are not retreads or even close.

Retreads = coaches who have been fired and seeking to be employed again. What about Brown or JVG does not fit into this equation? Are they seeking their first coaching job? Are they seeking a job after they left on their own terms? I believe they both got fired for lack of performance.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:33 PM
If we can't get Adleman, then yes, keep Vogel!

No offense to Vogel lovers, of which I'm one, but we need to put ALL emotions to the side when we make our coaching decision.

Remember what happened to IU football under Bill Lynch? Coached half a season after Hep (R.I.P.) died and won some big games as the interim head coach. After the season he was promoted to head coach. Without question the worst decision in the program's history.

I am not by any means saying Vogel is the equivalent of Lynch (or even close to that level of putrid trash). Just pointing out that temporary success+emotions can cloud the decision making progress.

Can anyone dispute Adleman over Vogel?

Comparing this to Lynch is horrible because almost everyone agreed that the year he was the interim coach the team should have won 8 or 9 games and that they actually underachieved with him as the head man.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 12:38 PM
Comparing this to Lynch is horrible because almost everyone agreed that the year he was the interim coach the team should have won 8 or 9 games and that they actually underachieved with him as the head man.

I agree that was a bad analogy. I do get what he is saying though. You dont want to base the decision off of emotion.
But wasnt Vogel 27-21 after taking over for O'Brien and getting this team in the playoffs? That's pretty good for a team nobody expected to get in. Also, what would their record have been had Vogel coached the whole year? I would rather hire from within than get another guy who has coached 4-5 teams. We may be giving up on a coach who could be here the next 15 years for a coach who at best will be here 3-4.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:44 PM
Vogel was 20-18.

O'Brien was 17-27.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 12:48 PM
Comparing this to Lynch is horrible because almost everyone agreed that the year he was the interim coach the team should have won 8 or 9 games and that they actually underachieved with him as the head man.

Using your logic (not mine), comparing Lynch to Vogel is a fitting comparrison because almost everyone agreed this year the Pacers should of made the playoffs, just like the Hoosiers were supposed to make it to a bowl game (which they did, first since '93 - makes a 5 year playoff drought seem like vacation). They both met their preseason goals after being inserted as interim head coaches.

Really not trying to compare their merits or coaching talent. Again, just pointing out a pitfall of emotional decision making.

Why not go after the best coach we can? I love Vogel but Adleman is by far and away the best coach on the market. His resume speaks for itself.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 12:48 PM
Adelman is also old.

Give me the young guy who has PROVEN, he can get through to these guys and light a fire. I'm not making this emotionally. This team has over achieved since Vogel took over IMO.

That IU team underachieved with Lynch at the helm.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 12:51 PM
Vogel was 20-18.

O'Brien was 17-27.

Ok thanks!
Still he was above .500 in the regular season using the former coach's defense and staff. The team was much better with Vogel and would have never made the playoffs without the coaching change.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 12:52 PM
Adelman is also old.

Give me the young guy who has PROVEN, he can get through to these guys and light a fire. I'm not making this emotionally. This team has over achieved since Vogel took over IMO.

That IU team underachieved with Lynch at the helm.

Me too!
But Adelman would be a better pick than Brown or JVG.

BillS
04-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Give me the young guy who has PROVEN, he can get through to these guys and light a fire. I'm not making this emotionally. This team has over achieved since Vogel took over IMO.

I'd venture to point out that he's really only "proven" he can handle a team under circumstances where it would have been hard for them NOT to be ready to listen to him. To most of the players, he's the next best thing to God compared to the previous coach. Even the chemistry blowup being resolved doesn't make me completely comfortable, considering it reportedly came from a deep bench player disrupting the entire team. You can't fix a blowup involving a more vital component by simply benching the offender - and was there something that could have/should have been done to prevent it rather than having to fix it?

I like Vogel, I think he has some very positive aspects, but I'm not ready to anoint him the savior of the franchise just yet. I might be willing to take him for a shortened season, but once the lockout is resolved this team has to be ready to move forward hard, and one of either the players or the coach needs not to be on learning curve - and I don't think we're dumping the young guys in favor of a veteran team any time soon.

It should be carefully considered, not just decided on an emotional level.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 01:00 PM
If we let Vogel go, we will regret it.

makaveli
04-19-2011, 01:03 PM
If we let Vogel go, we will regret it.

Yes....for many years to come.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 01:13 PM
Adelman is also old.

Give me the young guy who has PROVEN, he can get through to these guys and light a fire. I'm not making this emotionally. This team has over achieved since Vogel took over IMO.

That IU team underachieved with Lynch at the helm.

LOL!!! Seriously?... You don't want Rick b/c you think he's too old to get through to our Pacers? I guess just like McCain was too old to get through to America's youth. Since when does youth know what's best?

Sigh... Adelman over achieves everywhere he goes. 16 playoff appearances in 20 seasons with a .61 win percentage. He missed the playoffs the last two years even though he posted back to back winning seasons (.512 & .524) w/o Yao Ming.

IMO your O sounds emotional and not logical. You want to keep Vogel b/c he's proven he can get through to a .500 team (under Vogel) and not go after a guy like Adelman who is a first ballot HoFer.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 01:40 PM
Adelman is a first ballot HoFer? News to me.

BTW I voted for John McCain.

Young
04-19-2011, 01:46 PM
There for a while I didn't know if Vogel was legit. What he was selling was good but I wasn't for sure if the players were buying it. I think they have. They respect him and trust him and that is very important when being a head coach.

I also wonder what Vogel's philosophy really is? Is he doing what Bird wants him to do or is he doing what he believes?

As of today I would lean strongly towards voting to bring Vogel back as the head coach. However I wouldn't make that decision based on two strong showings by this team just as I wouldn't say fire him based on two poor performances.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 01:50 PM
I also love Vogel's sideline demeanor and his confidence. He and Brad Stevens are very similar in this way.

Jared Sullinger
04-19-2011, 01:55 PM
There are more proven candidates out there (Adelman, Sloan, Jeff Van Gundy), but what are the chances we'd land one of them? Probably slim. I'd take Vogel over the rest of the available coaching riffraff.

Roaming Gnome
04-19-2011, 02:07 PM
I love how Vogel has our extremely young team "prepared to <s>compete</s> win" instead of pissing their pants because of such a big stage and their youth & underdog status. I feel preparing your team with the confidence to win is big time. I like his demeanor on the sidelines as well.

I'm not going to lie, I have my concerns too with a coach so young and inexperienced. I also have questions of him as a tactician and strategist of the game, but I'm personally willing to cast my doubts aside to take advantage of a guy that has room for improvement and not quite stuck in his ways. A guy that OUR team has bought into.

Anyway, I'm sure that his number on a Herb Simon ledger sheet looks a lot better then some of the names that keep getting bandied about.

Also, don't forget... Before you judge Vogel, remember he hasn't had a training camp with these guys. We don't know what his defensive system is because he has only had very limited time to hodge podge J. O'Brien's systems on both offense and defense.

Personally, I'm sold... However, I still think it is the right move to conduct interviews and let the emotional tide roll back out to sea.

RWB
04-19-2011, 02:16 PM
It's up to Vogel and the interview process if he get's the job. Big question will be 'Frank, who/what will your staff be, and what will their responsibilities be'? If Frank stays loyal to the others and does not bring in vet coach experience, then his opportunity is blown.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 02:17 PM
Adelman is a first ballot HoFer? News to me.

BTW I voted for John McCain.

Consider yourself informed:

8th all time in wins (with a .61 win%) and 9th all time in playoff wins (with a .503 win%). 18 winning seasons in 20 years of coaching.

Someone asked why would we go after a guy who will only be here for 4 years at best (I'll never understand how anyone can assume a coach's tenure b4 a single game is coached). Maybe because that guy is Adelman, who spent 4 years in Houston and left as their winningest coach in franchise history (.588 win %) w/o his two best players for the vast majority of his tenure.

Did you forget about his 22 game win streak w/o Yao? 2nd best streak all time.

PacerDude
04-19-2011, 02:19 PM
If Mike Brown or JVG were really interested, that IMO is a tough call. What could either of these guys bring that Vogel hasn't ??

I recall a lot of Brown-bashing going on here because he had LeBron and his late game 'strategy' was 'Give LeBron the ball and get out of his way.'

Young
04-19-2011, 02:21 PM
What could either of these guys bring that Vogel hasn't ??

I recall a lot of Brown-bashing going on here because he had LeBron and his late game 'strategy' was 'Give LeBron the ball and get out of his way.'

In Mike Brown's defense the whole give the ball to Lebron thing could have been to keep the owner or Lebron happy. Maybe he had his hands tied?

RWB
04-19-2011, 02:25 PM
What could either of these guys bring that Vogel hasn't ??

I recall a lot of Brown-bashing going on here because he had LeBron and his late game 'strategy' was 'Give LeBron the ball and get out of his way.'

Kind of sounds like 'Give the ball to DRose and get out of his way.' That concept is working for Chicago.

makaveli
04-19-2011, 02:25 PM
What could either of these guys bring that Vogel hasn't ??

I recall a lot of Brown-bashing going on here because he had LeBron and his late game 'strategy' was 'Give LeBron the ball and get out of his way.'


Hmmmmm....."Give DANNY the ball and get out of his way"? shudder

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 02:29 PM
In Mike Brown's defense the whole give the ball to Lebron thing could have been to keep the owner or Lebron happy. Maybe he had his hands tied?

Or it could have been because that is the best strategy to use.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 02:30 PM
There are more proven candidates out there (Adelman, Sloan, Jeff Van Gundy), but what are the chances we'd land one of them? Probably slim. I'd take Vogel over the rest of the available coaching riffraff.

Totally agree... Slim to none odds Bird can pull a rabbit out of a hat (hiring Adelman, Sloan, etc)...

I'd love to bring Vogel back if we can't land someone on that short list.

Mark Jackson anyone?

Really?
04-19-2011, 02:36 PM
I think Vogel has earned another year, I wonder how long of a contract he would sign though.

Know it won't happen but I would suggest to bring him back on a 1 yr contract, if he doesn't do good then let him go, I'm pretty sure that Bird would leave then too, we would start fresh with a whole new crop of guys.

Vogel seems to really have a connection with the guys on the team, something I really never saw with Obrien, but I wonder how long this connection would last.

Really?
04-19-2011, 02:38 PM
Totally agree... Slim to none odds Bird can pull a rabbit out of a hat (hiring Adelman, Sloan, etc)...

I'd love to bring Vogel back if we can't land someone on that short list.

Mark Jackson anyone?

I'm a Mark Jackson fan but after thinking about it he really has NO experience, atleast give GM's a appetizer before they try to order the whole meal.

Sandman21
04-19-2011, 02:45 PM
If Mark Jackson wants a head coaching gig in the NBA, he NEEDS to get some experience on the bench as an assistant first. I know we lucked out once already with hiring a guy with no coaching experience, but look who we wound up with when we tried it again!

BillS
04-19-2011, 02:46 PM
Mark Jackson anyone?

:tongue:

Love Jax, but Vogel is the clear winner of THAT choice.

Ozwalt72
04-19-2011, 02:48 PM
Mark Jackson anyone?

I don't see a legitimate reason to even consider a guy with no coaching experience whatsoever.

Mackey_Rose
04-19-2011, 02:52 PM
I don't see a legitimate reason to even consider a guy with no coaching experience whatsoever.

Completely agree. Jackson doesn't deserve a coaching job, until he proves he's willing to put in the work.

BillS
04-19-2011, 02:56 PM
Completely agree. Jackson doesn't deserve a coaching job, until he proves he's willing to put in the work.

Now, the thought of Jax giving in and coming as an assistant under Vogel makes me :love:

Won't happen, but :love:

BPump33
04-19-2011, 02:57 PM
Now, the thought of Jax giving in and coming as an assistant under Vogel makes me :love:

I would be afraid this city would have "backup QB syndrome" and push for Jax to have the job at any sign of rough times.

Doddage
04-19-2011, 03:04 PM
Young? Check.
Has the players' respect? Check.
Has potential to get even better? Check.
A cheaper option than what else is on the market? Check.

Yeah. It seems to be a no-brainer.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 03:08 PM
Slick just called for Vogel's interim tag to be removed on Dakich's show. That's good enough for me.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 03:28 PM
I'm a Mark Jackson fan but after thinking about it he really has NO experience, atleast give GM's a appetizer before they try to order the whole meal.

Jackson is showing he does not have the work ethic for the job. I heard him campaigning for the job on tv awhile back.
If he is serious about coaching he will put in the time as an assistant and work up from there. I think he has the ability, but taking the shortcut to coaching makes me think it would be a huge mistake.
Only the elite superstars make that kind of jump (Bird, Isaiah etc..). And even then, it rarely works out. Bird was the exception not the rule.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 03:29 PM
Slick just called for Vogel's interim tag to be removed on Dakich's show. That's good enough for me.

I was convinced before. But, that might convince someone who is on the fence! I think Boyle would carry more weight than Slick.

Trader Joe
04-19-2011, 03:32 PM
I was convinced before. But, that might convince someone who is on the fence! I think Boyle would carry more weight than Slick.

Really? Slick has been the most matter of factly negative person about this team for about 3 years.

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 03:33 PM
Retreads = coaches who have been fired and seeking to be employed again. .

OK so that leaves let me see, Popovich and Jackson or young coaches in their first job, because everyone else has been fired. Carlisle? Nope. Skiles? nope.....................

Your standard is just wrong - I mean you might refer to it that way, but it is unrealistic.


I think Vogel should get 3 years, if you aren't willing to do that then you shouldn't hire him.
One year is absurd, 2 years is very questionable

kellogg
04-19-2011, 03:37 PM
What about Adelman?

Scot Pollard
04-19-2011, 03:38 PM
I want Vogel to add a former head coach to his staff believing he's our head coach

I'd like to add Mike Woodson to the staff but hes going to want to be a head coach

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 03:42 PM
I want Vogel to add a former head coach to his staff believing he's our head coach

I'd like to add Mike Woodson to the staff but hes going to want to be a head coach


are there any young defensive guru's out there that are maybe not first assistant but maybe second assistant. (Mike brown was not the lead asisstant when he started with the Spurs.

kellogg
04-19-2011, 03:43 PM
Young? Check.
Has the players' respect? Check.
Has potential to get even better? Check.
A cheaper option than what else is on the market? Check.

Yeah. It seems to be a no-brainer.

Learning on the fly? Check

I just am not totally sold on Vogle. We have a young team that has a lot to learn. His resume is thin and in fact no way on this planet he would have gotten a head coaching job except in this very unique situation.

We might have a Ferrari parked in the garage...but (no disrespect intended) that doesn't mean I'd be comfortable handing over the keys to a 19 year old.

Scot Pollard
04-19-2011, 03:51 PM
are there any young defensive guru's out there that are maybe not first assistant but maybe second assistant. (Mike brown was not the lead asisstant when he started with the Spurs.

Vitaly Potapenko who is young and was brought in for defense was the most random selection to be an assistant here.

I dont know what his take is but that was an OBrien selection so Vogel might go another way with the whole staff.

Heres a few random former coaches from not that long ago who may be interested in taking an assistant coaches job here.

Brian Hill
Bob Hill
Eddie Jordan
Sam Vincent
Tony Barone
Bernie Bickerstaff
Larry Krystkowiak
Reggie Theus
Eric Musselman

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Vitaly Potapenko who is young and was brought in for defense was the most random selection to be an assistant here.

I dont know what his take is but that was an OBrien selection so Vogel might go another way with the whole staff.

Heres a few random former coaches from not that long ago who may be interested in taking an assistant coaches job here.

Brian Hill
Bob Hill
Eddie Jordan
Sam Vincent
Tony Barone
Bernie Bickerstaff
Larry Krystkowiak
Reggie Theus
Eric Musselman


I don't want any of them. The only two I might consider at all are Krysto and Mus. I know Mus bombed as a head coach, but I think he's well thought of as an assistant

But I want someone else

pizza guy
04-19-2011, 04:51 PM
I actually just looked through a handful of Pitino's disciples because I thought if Vogel is retained and chooses his own staff, that he might look for fellow Pitino guys. Theus was one that I looked into a little bit because he's currently in Minnesota as an assistant, and I would imagine that anyone working for Kahn would want to leave.

Whoever Frank adds, I hope he looks for someone to work with Roy and Tyler on rebounding and scoring around the bucket with authority. And I hope he finds a defensive minded assistant to help organize that aspect because we have the talent and athleticism to be a decent defensive team.

It was mentioned a few posts back, but I think the thing that may swing the vote on whether or not Frank stays is who he wants to bring in as assistants. It's obvious that he has a good relationship with the players, and he can get the most out of them because they respect him. But, as a leader, you're only as good as those you put around you. I think Frank can coach much like Bird coached, if he finds the right assistants. Make some in-game adjustments, motivate the players, and have good assistants to help teach and implement your gameplan.

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 04:52 PM
I apologize if this has been posted elsewhere, but this is a good article.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/4916366-419/frankly-speaking-the-bulls-tom-thibodeau-has-met-his-match.html

Frankly speaking, the Bulls’ Tom Thibodeau has met his match (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/4916366-419/frankly-speaking-the-bulls-tom-thibodeau-has-met-his-match.html)



BY MARK POTASH | Commentary
Last Modified: Apr 19, 2011 02:22PM
Tom Thibodeau is a heavy favorite to win the NBA’s Coach of the Year Award. But let’s not forget that’s a regular-season honor.

Two games into his first playoff series as an NBA head coach, Thibodeau already has been put on the spot by the Indiana Pacers’ Frank Vogel — an anonymous interim coach considered a threat in this series more out of respect and professional courtesy than anything else.

The Bulls are up 2-0 in their Eastern Conference first-round series. But it’s an uneasy 2-0 because Vogel and his coaching staff have found a way to discombobulate the Bulls — on defense in Game 1 and on offense in Game 2.

Monday night he threw the Bulls’ offense out of sync by putting 6-8 rookie Paul George on Derrick Rose, with point guard Darren Collison guarding Keith Bogans. Rose still scored 36 points, but he had to work much harder to get them. He shot 11-of-25 from the field, committed six turnovers and sat out part of the first quarter after picking up his second foul.

Most of it, it threw the Bulls out of whack. George stole an inbounds pass intended for Rose 18 seconds into the game — the start of a difficult night for the Bulls with the basketball in their hands. They finished with 21 turnovers. Not only that, but it probably wasn’t a coincidence that the Pacers’ defense had the Bulls off a beat all night — missing close-range shots off the back of the rim or the front and missing out on “and-ones” they normally make.

You can say the Bulls just had a bad game, but that would be short-changing the Pacers, especially their coach. Even the Bulls players noticed. ‘‘Indiana’s a well-coached team,’’ Bulls forward Luol Deng said. When a Frank Vogel-coached team gets your attention, you know it’s real.

‘‘Indiana’s a very good team,’’ Deng said when asked if the Bulls or the Pacers were the source of the Bulls’ problems. ‘‘I’m sure they spent a lot of time taking away a lot of stuff we’re doing. They’re reading how we play defense and [what we] try to put in place and counter those. As a team we have to play harder and take those things away.’’

That’s Thibodeau’s job. In an unlikely battle against a coach with even less head coaching experience than himself, Thibodeau needs to respond to the challenge. Vogel has made his move and now it’s Thibodeau’s turn to respond. ‘‘They were trapping Derrick on the high pick-and-roll,’’ Joakim Noah said. ‘‘We just have to do a better job of giving him outlets and just be aggressive. Offensively we have to clean up a few things.’’

That’s Thibodeau’s job. The Bulls are used to countering double teams on Rose, but not so much when it’s 7-2 Roy Hibbert and the 6-8 George doing the double-teaming. He has Keith Bogans — regarded by at least one NBA awards voter as a better defensive player than Dwight Howard — guarding George, who averages 7.8 points per game. That doesn’t appear to be an efficient use of personnel. If George can guard the best point guard in the league, can Bogans guard Collison? Just wondering.

It will be interesting to see what Thibodeau does in Game 3, because the Xs and Os of this series are a factor and that’s his expertise. I guess it would be mean-spirited to say that with Lovie Smith in attendance, Thibodeau wasn’t the worst coach in the house Monday night, so I won’t say that. But there’s no doubt he wasn’t the best coach in the house either.

‘‘Everybody is expecting us to blow out Indiana, but I keep saying this is a very good team,’’ Deng said. ‘‘Indiana had a lot of [issues] during the year — the coaching change and everything. I really think they found their identity. The way they’re playing, I think next year they’ll be a different team.’’

As we’ve seen in Games 1 and 2, they’re already a different team.

‘‘This series we have to lock in and focus. It might be all close games,’’ Deng said. ‘‘Every game is going to be a different story. [In Game 2] it was our turnovers. We were sloppy. So we have to watch tapes and fix those things. As long as we don’t repeat the same problems, I think we’ll be making progress.’’

That, too, is Tom Thibodeau’s job.


<HR>

graphic-er
04-19-2011, 04:53 PM
I'd give Vogel 2 years with a team option on a 3rd.

Thoreau87
04-19-2011, 04:55 PM
Jackson is showing he does not have the work ethic for the job. I heard him campaigning for the job on tv awhile back.
If he is serious about coaching he will put in the time as an assistant and work up from there. I think he has the ability, but taking the shortcut to coaching makes me think it would be a huge mistake.
Only the elite superstars make that kind of jump (Bird, Isaiah etc..). And even then, it rarely works out. Bird was the exception not the rule.

While we're on the subject, I found an article if you/anyone else is interested.

Mark Jackson Fights Inexperience in Seeking Head Coaching Job
Brett Pollakoff

LOS ANGELES -- Mark Jackson played in the NBA for 17 seasons, and currently serves as a television analyst for ESPN and ABC. There's no question he knows plenty about the game of professional basketball, but he's never spent any time on the bench in a coaching role at any level of the sport.

Since Jackson is currently in the interview process for a head coaching position -- most recently with the Atlanta Hawks, as reported by FanHouse's Sam Amick -- this may seem like a legitimate concern.

In another exclusive interview with FanHouse on Saturday, however, Jackson did his best to put those concerns to rest. While he did agree that a team would have to make somewhat of a leap of faith if it gave him a head coaching position with his lack of experience specifically in that role, Jackson also pointed out some similar cases where the lack of experience wasn't even remotely an issue.

"I think it depends on who's doing the hiring," Jackson said. "I think you've got great examples of it, just like any other hire. And then you have examples where it didn't work. Doc Rivers was hired with no experience, and he's as good as it gets as coaching goes.



Share "So I think it's just a question of who you hire. I understand the leap of taking that chance, but hiring anybody requires a leap and taking a chance. Unless it's Phil Jackson, or other coaches with great history."

Hubie Brown, who was a head coach in the ABA and NBA for a combined 15 seasons and who also is on the ESPN/ABC broadcasting team, said that hiring a head coach who doesn't have any experience is understandably something a team might be concerned with. But that doesn't mean that it can't work, especially if the person surrounds himself with some quality assistants.

"Well, there aren't any rules on that," Brown said. "I mean, what Larry Bird did in Indiana, he brought in a defensive guy and he brought in an offensive guy. Now, they ran both ends of the floor, he micromanaged. When Isiah Thomas got his job, that's exactly what he did -- no previous experience at all.

"Well, the problem is, you've got to get someone to believe that you can do that, and surround yourself," Brown continued. "Where you get into trouble, anytime you get a job, is when you get a job and surround yourself with guys who like you, and who will say everything you want. But they can't teach. And they can't help you. But see, you like it, because they're not a threat. They're not a threat to your job, because you know more than them.

"It comes down to whether an owner or a general manager who's making decisions feels that you can do it, even though you've never coached a game in your life. 'Don't tell me about what you did as a player, I've got millions and millions of dollars involved here. Where's your credibility?' So, that's the other side of it."

Jackson seemed to recognize the importance of building a strong staff of assistant coaches if and when he gets his opportunity, but at the same time, he doesn't want to bring anyone on who would contribute some name value to his situation, but little else.

"It's important to surround yourself with qualified people," Jackson said. "The question is, who's qualified? Do you get a name just to get a name because it's a sexy name to have next to you, or do you get a guy that is going to work and is qualified to put you in position to be successful?

"It's important to surround yourself with people who are as smart or smarter than you, and who will put you in a position to be successful. And that makes sense to me, whether it's a brand new coach or a veteran coach. I think if you're Jeff Van Gundy, you hire Patrick Ewing on your bench for a reason. Because he brings something on a different level that enhances you as a coach. So it's just a smart thing to do."

No matter how good of a job Jackson does in filling out his coaching staff, the reality is that if he's the head coach, the players will ultimately look to him to have that strong leadership presence. So besides his wealth of knowledge of the game, what are some of the other qualities that Jackson would be able to bring to the table if he gets his chance?

"I'm a guy who takes pride in being a leader," Jackson said. "I was a guy who was an extension of the coach no matter where I played, and I take pride in getting the most out of everybody around me, including myself. And I'm a student of the game. I had the luxury of playing under five or six Hall of Fame coaches, and I was smart enough to know what to steal from them, meaning taking from each and every one of them what they did great, and what I thought they didn't do well."

Jackson knows that being a head coach in the league won't be easy, but that's what interests him about the opportunity: the challenge. And when asked what the greatest challenge would be once he gets that opportunity, being a former player, his answer didn't come as much of a surprise.

"I think for any coach, the challenge is to keep it fresh," Jackson said. "That's any coach. To make sure the message doesn't get stale. To get your team to play hard all the time, and to compete."

And how would Jackson go about doing that?

"You get it done by preparing yourself, by getting into proper habits, and that starts every day in practice," Jackson said. "It starts in the preseason, it starts in the summer, where you accept nothing short of leaving it on the floor. And then the next night, leaving it on the floor. You get into the habit of accepting nothing short of that. And all of a sudden, that mentality, that approach becomes contagious to where it's not just one guy thinking that way, but it's 12-15 guys thinking that way.

"It's a challenge for anybody, and it's a challenge that intrigues and excites me."

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/06/05/mark-jackson-fights-inexperience-in-seeking-head-coaching-job/

ChicagoJ
04-19-2011, 05:06 PM
Frankly, guys, our inexperienced roster and inexperienced coach make for a bad combination at crunch time.

John Wooden always said, "Be quick but don't hurry."

The last four minutes of Game #1 and Game #2, the Pacers were rushing things. We can't tell if that is 100% because of inexperienced players or because of inexperienced coaches that aren't able to calm down the inexperienced players.

I'd still prefer the team test all the waters. Will Byron become available again? Mike Brown? There are a number of candidates that I would prefer that have playoff experiene but are not, in my opinion, retreads.

Ideally, whoever they pick then recruits Chuck Person away from the Lakers to be the #1 assistant.

Unclebuck
04-19-2011, 05:10 PM
Frankly, guys, our inexperienced roster and inexperienced coach make for a bad combination at crunch time.

John Wooden always said, "Be quick but don't hurry."

The last four minutes of Game #1 and Game #2, the Pacers were rushing things. We can't tell if that is 100% because of inexperienced players or because of inexperienced coaches that aren't able to calm down the inexperienced players.

I'd still prefer the team test all the waters. Will Byron become available again? Mike Brown? There are a number of candidates that I would prefer that have playoff experiene but are not, in my opinion, retreads.

Ideally, whoever they pick then recruits Chuck Person away from the Lakers to be the #1 assistant.


I don't think it is coaching at all. J, you have not been around since Vogel has taken over. Until the playoffs, I have not been too impressed with Vogel - I mean he did a good job during the regular season, but I think in the playoffs he's done an outstanding job. Pacers just don't have players who can create a shot late in games IMO not coaches fault.

Vogel is very calm

TheDon
04-19-2011, 05:31 PM
I remember Shade being very adamant about wanting Adleman as our coach. I wonder what shade would want now between Vogel and Adleman going off a pure hypothetical assumption that we could get Adleman just as easy as we could retain Vogel.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 05:52 PM
While we're on the subject, I found an article if you/anyone else is interested.

Mark Jackson Fights Inexperience in Seeking Head Coaching Job
Brett Pollakoff

LOS ANGELES -- Mark Jackson played in the NBA for 17 seasons, and currently serves as a television analyst for ESPN and ABC. There's no question he knows plenty about the game of professional basketball, but he's never spent any time on the bench in a coaching role at any level of the sport.

Since Jackson is currently in the interview process for a head coaching position -- most recently with the Atlanta Hawks, as reported by FanHouse's Sam Amick -- this may seem like a legitimate concern.

In another exclusive interview with FanHouse on Saturday, however, Jackson did his best to put those concerns to rest. While he did agree that a team would have to make somewhat of a leap of faith if it gave him a head coaching position with his lack of experience specifically in that role, Jackson also pointed out some similar cases where the lack of experience wasn't even remotely an issue.

"I think it depends on who's doing the hiring," Jackson said. "I think you've got great examples of it, just like any other hire. And then you have examples where it didn't work. Doc Rivers was hired with no experience, and he's as good as it gets as coaching goes.



Share "So I think it's just a question of who you hire. I understand the leap of taking that chance, but hiring anybody requires a leap and taking a chance. Unless it's Phil Jackson, or other coaches with great history."

Hubie Brown, who was a head coach in the ABA and NBA for a combined 15 seasons and who also is on the ESPN/ABC broadcasting team, said that hiring a head coach who doesn't have any experience is understandably something a team might be concerned with. But that doesn't mean that it can't work, especially if the person surrounds himself with some quality assistants.

"Well, there aren't any rules on that," Brown said. "I mean, what Larry Bird did in Indiana, he brought in a defensive guy and he brought in an offensive guy. Now, they ran both ends of the floor, he micromanaged. When Isiah Thomas got his job, that's exactly what he did -- no previous experience at all.

"Well, the problem is, you've got to get someone to believe that you can do that, and surround yourself," Brown continued. "Where you get into trouble, anytime you get a job, is when you get a job and surround yourself with guys who like you, and who will say everything you want. But they can't teach. And they can't help you. But see, you like it, because they're not a threat. They're not a threat to your job, because you know more than them.

"It comes down to whether an owner or a general manager who's making decisions feels that you can do it, even though you've never coached a game in your life. 'Don't tell me about what you did as a player, I've got millions and millions of dollars involved here. Where's your credibility?' So, that's the other side of it."

Jackson seemed to recognize the importance of building a strong staff of assistant coaches if and when he gets his opportunity, but at the same time, he doesn't want to bring anyone on who would contribute some name value to his situation, but little else.

"It's important to surround yourself with qualified people," Jackson said. "The question is, who's qualified? Do you get a name just to get a name because it's a sexy name to have next to you, or do you get a guy that is going to work and is qualified to put you in position to be successful?

"It's important to surround yourself with people who are as smart or smarter than you, and who will put you in a position to be successful. And that makes sense to me, whether it's a brand new coach or a veteran coach. I think if you're Jeff Van Gundy, you hire Patrick Ewing on your bench for a reason. Because he brings something on a different level that enhances you as a coach. So it's just a smart thing to do."

No matter how good of a job Jackson does in filling out his coaching staff, the reality is that if he's the head coach, the players will ultimately look to him to have that strong leadership presence. So besides his wealth of knowledge of the game, what are some of the other qualities that Jackson would be able to bring to the table if he gets his chance?

"I'm a guy who takes pride in being a leader," Jackson said. "I was a guy who was an extension of the coach no matter where I played, and I take pride in getting the most out of everybody around me, including myself. And I'm a student of the game. I had the luxury of playing under five or six Hall of Fame coaches, and I was smart enough to know what to steal from them, meaning taking from each and every one of them what they did great, and what I thought they didn't do well."

Jackson knows that being a head coach in the league won't be easy, but that's what interests him about the opportunity: the challenge. And when asked what the greatest challenge would be once he gets that opportunity, being a former player, his answer didn't come as much of a surprise.

"I think for any coach, the challenge is to keep it fresh," Jackson said. "That's any coach. To make sure the message doesn't get stale. To get your team to play hard all the time, and to compete."

And how would Jackson go about doing that?

"You get it done by preparing yourself, by getting into proper habits, and that starts every day in practice," Jackson said. "It starts in the preseason, it starts in the summer, where you accept nothing short of leaving it on the floor. And then the next night, leaving it on the floor. You get into the habit of accepting nothing short of that. And all of a sudden, that mentality, that approach becomes contagious to where it's not just one guy thinking that way, but it's 12-15 guys thinking that way.

"It's a challenge for anybody, and it's a challenge that intrigues and excites me."

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/06/05/mark-jackson-fights-inexperience-in-seeking-head-coaching-job/

I think that article goes to show that he wants to start at the top and not work his way there. He needs to be an assistant coach first for a few years but does not want to do that. I cannot blame him from a financial standpoint because he would have to take a serious pay cut and would increase his workload by 200%.
If Jackson would take an assistant coach position under a decent NBA coach for a few years, I think he would be a great choice. But I am not interested in someone who wants to start at the top and not pay his dues.
I do like him though!

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 05:56 PM
I want Vogel to add a former head coach to his staff believing he's our head coach

I'd like to add Mike Woodson to the staff but hes going to want to be a head coach

I agree with you to a point here. A veteran assistant would be great. The concern with Woodson is that he is a former coach who probably wants to coach again (and should get a job). Would he be loyal to Vogel or would he be looking out for himself? I am not cracking on Woodson here, I would say that about anyone in his shoes. A "Dick Harter" type coach who has been in the NBA for years would be a better choice.

ChicagoJ
04-19-2011, 06:26 PM
I don't think it is coaching at all. J, you have not been around since Vogel has taken over. Until the playoffs, I have not been too impressed with Vogel - I mean he did a good job during the regular season, but I think in the playoffs he's done an outstanding job. Pacers just don't have players who can create a shot late in games IMO not coaches fault.

Vogel is very calm

I haven't been on here, but I've watched more games since O'Brien was fired than I've watched in the previous five years combined. Okay, that may be a slight exaggeration.

I'm glad he's the anti-Jim. But there are better coaches available to be the permanent coach of this young team.

Pacemaker
04-19-2011, 06:50 PM
Vogel has the balls to put a 20 yr old rookie on the league MVP, call PG and Hanbroughs number in crunch time. I like his style. I don't know if he can keep a team together over 82 games, but he's coaching his *** off right now. Defensive schemes are creative, offense is right for this talent set and group.

x 2 !!!!!!!!

Scot Pollard
04-19-2011, 06:56 PM
I agree with you to a point here. A veteran assistant would be great. The concern with Woodson is that he is a former coach who probably wants to coach again (and should get a job). Would he be loyal to Vogel or would he be looking out for himself? I am not cracking on Woodson here, I would say that about anyone in his shoes. A "Dick Harter" type coach who has been in the NBA for years would be a better choice.

Dick Harter was a very knowledgable, older man who was a big part in helping keep this players in line I feel.

I really like coach Woodson and I think he'd prefer to be an assistant here in Indy than be an assistant somewhere else mainly because he's a born and raised Indy native.

Mike Woodson and Frank Vogel are my 2 top choices to be the head coach. I'm leaning more towards Vogel however.

That's the reason why I brought up Woodson's name. I want both he and Vogel to be coaches here. Vogel HC, Woodson, AC.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 07:06 PM
Dick Harter was a very knowledgable, older man who was a big part in helping keep this players in line I feel.

I really like coach Woodson and I think he'd prefer to be an assistant here in Indy than be an assistant somewhere else mainly because he's a born and raised Indy native.

Mike Woodson and Frank Vogel are my 2 top choices to be the head coach. I'm leaning more towards Vogel however.

That's the reason why I brought up Woodson's name. I want both he and Vogel to be coaches here. Vogel HC, Woodson, AC.

I like Woodson too. I think he got the short end in Atlanta. He might be my second choice behind Vogel. Simply because I tend to support Indiana guys.

pacerwaala
04-19-2011, 09:01 PM
Posted this in another thread, but maybe we should start a "Bring Frank Back" chant at the end of Game 4.

No! Let us do that at the end of Game 6, not Game 4! You know what I mean!

idioteque
04-19-2011, 09:07 PM
Woodson had all the talent in the world down in Atlanta and never put it to really good use. Maybe they just have mismatching parts, but the fact that they had so many good players on that team and never established themselves in the upper tier in the East while he was there says something to me.

Everything I've read about Adelman is that he won't play young players and is a big disciplinarian. We've been down that road.

I was never impressed by Mike Brown in Cleveland. He had a great staff there that I think carried him a lot of the way.

I'll stick with Vogel, basically because I'm convinced that there is no better fit for this team as it stands.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 09:18 PM
Woodson had all the talent in the world down in Atlanta and never put it to really good use. Maybe they just have mismatching parts, but the fact that they had so many good players on that team and never established themselves in the upper tier in the East while he was there says something to me.

Everything I've read about Adelman is that he won't play young players and is a big disciplinarian. We've been down that road.

I was never impressed by Mike Brown in Cleveland. He had a great staff there that I think carried him a lot of the way.

I'll stick with Vogel, basically because I'm convinced that there is no better fit for this team as it stands.



I would have to agree with you on just about all of that. IDK why Woodson didnt work out in Atlanta but I thought he was a good coach. No way I would take him over Vogel. The Adelman and Brown comments I agree with 100%. Adelman is not a good fit and we still dont know if Brown can even coach (and there is no Lebron here to carry him).

Trophy
04-19-2011, 09:28 PM
Woodson wouldn't be a bad choice, but Vogel suits this team well and I think he's the right fit moving forward.

I'm pretty confident Bird will officially name him head coach over the summer.

He's probably going to interview other people just to hear what they have to say, but I think the job is Vogel's.

d_c
04-19-2011, 09:31 PM
I would have to agree with you on just about all of that. IDK why Woodson didnt work out in Atlanta but I thought he was a good coach. No way I would take him over Vogel. The Adelman and Brown comments I agree with 100%. Adelman is not a good fit and we still dont know if Brown can even coach (and there is no Lebron here to carry him).

I think a big reason Woodson is out of Atlanta is because they knew they could just hire his assistant (Larry Drew) at a far lesser salary. They probably thought those two guys were basically the same thing as far as results go, but Drew could be had for far cheaper.

At this point with this showing so far, I would be surprised if they didn't bring Vogel back. He's earned it.

PacersForever
04-19-2011, 09:36 PM
I love Vogel and his adjustments.

However I think he needs to get Hibbert consistently involved throughout the entire game. I would like to see some postup run for Hansbrough to.

BobbyMac
04-19-2011, 09:40 PM
I think Frank would be a very good choice to be the coach next year. Please.

troyc11a
04-19-2011, 09:47 PM
We need to know if Bird is coming back or not. If we get a new GM, then the chances of Vogel coming back are very slim. A new GM will want to hire "his guy." They almost never keep the guy who is in place on an interim basis. So, if we really want Frank to be the coach, we should probably pull for Larry to come back first!

Larry Staverman
04-20-2011, 08:27 AM
Two numbers to keep in mind

Vogel maybe 2 years @ $3 million

Brown, Adelman etc, who we will have competition for their services, maybe 4 years @ $15 million

For a team losing millions each year the decision may be made for them

Thoreau87
04-20-2011, 09:43 AM
The Adelman and Brown comments I agree with 100%. Adelman is not a good fit and we still dont know if Brown can even coach (and there is no Lebron here to carry him).

I know you guys love Vogel with all your heart (as do I!) but that doesn't give you the right to disrespect the game of basketball with your views on Adelman.

He's a disciplinarian who doesn't play young guys? The man came to Houston to coach Yao and T Mac, who both flamed out. After being handed lemons, he preceded to win 53 games and get the first series win in franchise history. He developed Chuck Hayes and Luis Scola (his rookies), along with many young players over the years (Brooks and Landry to name a few), into a .500+ ball club in the West. That's some pretty good lemonade IMO!

We couldn't get Rick if Larry begged (as rumors already have him pegged as the most likely Lakers coach. If they can convince him).

I love Vogel and would love him as a coach, but seriously fellas? You'd choose Vogel over Jesus Christ if it came down to it.

CooperManning
04-20-2011, 10:10 AM
I love Vogel and would love him as a coach, but seriously fellas? You'd choose Vogel over Jesus Christ if it came down to it.

Truth, Jesus doesn't know how to handle NBA personalities. More of a college coach imo. Good recruiter and all.

Day-V
04-20-2011, 10:18 AM
We might have a Ferrari parked in the garage...but (no disrespect intended) that doesn't mean I'd be comfortable handing over the keys to a 19 year old.

I would when that 19 year old is Joey Logano.

Kid Minneapolis
04-20-2011, 10:23 AM
...If George can guard the best point guard in the league...


I dislike reading these lines all the time by the media, how Rose is the best PG in the league. Not everyone, including myself, will agree that Rose is the best PG in the league. He's a damn good player. He's the best *scoring* PG in the league, but that's not the entire criteria. I love Rondo and Chris Paul as more complete PGs, playing the traditional role of PG in setting up their teammates and making winning plays.

There's regular-season domination, and there's playoff success. Rose, to me, is a regular-season dominator... Rondo is a playoff PG. I think Paul could be too if his supporting cast was a little better. Rose will always be "the guy", due to the way he plays. I couldnt' see sticking Rose on the Celtics and sacrificing his numbers... he has to have the ball in his hands at all times. It just doesn't work for true team basketball. He will have to achieve Jordan status in order to win it all, and I frankly just don't see that.

It's fun watching Rose doin his 1-on-5, but that's not how you play playoff PG in my book. They're gonna go down eventually. They're already getting exposed by a 37-45 team in the first round. 1-horse teams, 1-on-5 guys, don't win championships.

Sollozzo
04-20-2011, 10:48 AM
Yeah, forgive me too, but I'm not ready to proclaim Rose as the best PG in the league as if it's set and stone.

Westbrook is practically dead even with him, IMO. They are both scoring PG's and Westbrook does it just as good. I'd still easily take a healthy 100% Chris Paul over him. Easily. I'd probably take Dwill over him too.

Hell, I would still take Nash over him. Nash hasn't dropped off at all. It's not his fault that the inept ownership/management of the Suns chose to shell out 81 million for Josh Childress, Channing Frye, and Hakim Warrik over paying Amare 100 million and keeping a team that went to WCF's last year intact. They were a Kobe Jordanesque performance away from forcing game 7. They freaking swept the Spurs last year and made them look like fools. Not paying Amare and instead collectively paying those 3 bums close to the money Amare got is one of the worst blunders ever. It effectively ended Nash's chances of having anymore success.

If there's anyone who deserves to get traded to a team with a chance, it's Nash. They don't deserve him with the way they bungled that.

Thoreau87
04-20-2011, 11:09 AM
I dislike reading these lines all the time by the media, how Rose is the best PG in the league. Not everyone, including myself, will agree that Rose is the best PG in the league. He's a damn good player. He's the best *scoring* PG in the league, but that's not the entire criteria. I love Rondo and Chris Paul as more complete PGs, playing the traditional role of PG in setting up their teammates and making winning plays.

There's regular-season domination, and there's playoff success. Rose, to me, is a regular-season dominator... Rondo is a playoff PG. I think Paul could be too if his supporting cast was a little better. Rose will always be "the guy", due to the way he plays. I couldnt' see sticking Rose on the Celtics and sacrificing his numbers... he has to have the ball in his hands at all times. It just doesn't work for true team basketball. He will have to achieve Jordan status in order to win it all, and I frankly just don't see that.

It's fun watching Rose doin his 1-on-5, but that's not how you play playoff PG in my book. They're gonna go down eventually. They're already getting exposed by a 37-45 team in the first round. 1-horse teams, 1-on-5 guys, don't win championships.

So we can't call Derrick Rose the best PG because a less talented player at the same position can't do what Rose can?

He does exactly what his team needs when they need it (create for others, scores the ball, pushes the pace, executes in the half court). That's the reason his team is #1 and he's the MVP.

Outside of Rose, the Bulls have 1 perimeter player who can create there own shot (Deng), one great shooter (Korver) who Rose sets up for big shots like a traditional PG would, and 2 of the absolute worst offensive SGs in the NBA (Bogans and Brewer). He gets more out of that bunch then anyone in the NBA could.

So he does what's needed to win and in doing so we can't call him the best at his position because whats needed isn't the traditional PG role?

And your definitely not giving the Pacers enough credit. Obviously were playing at a much higher level then 37-45. NTM were division rivals who know each other through and through.

EDIT: Just read this in BringJackBack's signature. Says it better then I can when it comes to responding to your "exposed by a 37-45 team in the first round" comment:

"Don't waste time with the argument that it's only the Pacers, the seven-games-under-.500 Pacers because the Pacers have a better roster by miles better than fourth-seeded Orlando and play with a passion the Atlanta Hawks couldn't possibly understand. Whichever of those two the Bulls get in the second round won't come close to testing the Bulls the way the Pacers will over this series."

Pacergeek
04-20-2011, 11:11 AM
Vogel should be the next coach. i am on board with his hire. too many retread NBA coaches around. the NBA needs new, young coaches to step up. its clear that the players like playing for Vogel. hibbert said that he should be coach of the year.

Thoreau87
04-20-2011, 11:19 AM
Yeah, forgive me too...Hell, I would still take Nash over him...

ROTFL!!!

You will not be forgiven until you go to basketball intervention and seek some serious help.

troyc11a
04-20-2011, 01:40 PM
ROTFL!!!

You will not be forgiven until you go to basketball intervention and seek some serious help.

Is he really saying he would take Nash over Rose? At this stage of their careers? Maybe 7-8 years ago but not now! Get real man.

Kid Minneapolis
04-20-2011, 01:47 PM
So we can't call Derrick Rose the best PG because a less talented player at the same position can't do what Rose can?

He does exactly what his team needs when they need it (create for others, scores the ball, pushes the pace, executes in the half court). That's the reason his team is #1 and he's the MVP.

Outside of Rose, the Bulls have 1 perimeter player who can create there own shot (Deng), one great shooter (Korver) who Rose sets up for big shots like a traditional PG would, and 2 of the absolute worst offensive SGs in the NBA (Bogans and Brewer). He gets more out of that bunch then anyone in the NBA could.

So he does what's needed to win and in doing so we can't call him the best at his position because whats needed isn't the traditional PG role?

And your definitely not giving the Pacers enough credit. Obviously were playing at a much higher level then 37-45. NTM were division rivals who know each other through and through.

EDIT: Just read this in BringJackBack's signature. Says it better then I can when it comes to responding to your "exposed by a 37-45 team in the first round" comment:

"Don't waste time with the argument that it's only the Pacers, the seven-games-under-.500 Pacers because the Pacers have a better roster by miles better than fourth-seeded Orlando and play with a passion the Atlanta Hawks couldn't possibly understand. Whichever of those two the Bulls get in the second round won't come close to testing the Bulls the way the Pacers will over this series."


1) I haven't under-credited the Pacers, I'm one of their biggest cheer-leaders, I've been saying since before the series that I thought Indy has a *chance* when most people predicted a sweep, but in reality, Chicago is a #1 seed, and they won 25 more games than us, dude. Think about that for a second. Ya, we're under-rated; yes, I believe we play better team ball than they do; and while the sky is the limit and we're improving ever since Vogel took over, we still have work to do! We're still not near the Bulls level in the grand scheme of things right now. We have way too many variables and things to improve to seriously consider winning this series. THAT'S OK. This is an awesome learning experience for our players. We just received our new coach 35 games ago, we're still very young --- we're likely gonna lose this series, and it's completely possible that we'll get swept, much to Roy Hibbert's chagrine. That doesn't mean I'm not pulling for them! Doesn't mean I don't think a miracle can happen. But... Chicago is 62-20, with home-court through the playoffs, employ the "MVP" (which is mostly based off the percentage of contribution by a single player), is considered a championship favorite... while Indy is a 37-45 #8 seed. I don't think Chicago has what it takes to win it all, but they are SUPPOSED to be better than us, and we're absolutely taking it to them in the first round. This indicates exactly what I said about the difference between regular season and playoff basketball. The Bulls have their work cut out for them in the playoffs due to Rose's style of play, which is to dominate the ball. They are too reliant on him. And just as I said before the playoffs --- the Bulls are going to struggle. And here they are --- struggling, against a team that is not as bad as their record indicates, but by no means a 62-20 championship contender, either.

2) Talent. That's completely opinion and conjecture. Rose may be more athletic, but I think Rondo has a much better mind, Paul too, even Deron Williams. My entire point is that the media is clearly defining Rose as THE BEST POINT GUARD in the league, when there's a lot of people who won't agree, or even that he's the most talented. He's the most athletic. He's the best scorer. I'll leave it at that.

Since86
04-20-2011, 02:31 PM
I know you guys love Vogel with all your heart (as do I!) but that doesn't give you the right to disrespect the game of basketball with your views on Adelman.

He's a disciplinarian who doesn't play young guys? The man came to Houston to coach Yao and T Mac, who both flamed out. After being handed lemons, he preceded to win 53 games and get the first series win in franchise history. He developed Chuck Hayes and Luis Scola (his rookies), along with many young players over the years (Brooks and Landry to name a few), into a .500+ ball club in the West. That's some pretty good lemonade IMO!

Well that just sold me! A coach who manages to get a 2 time NBA championship franchise their first series win in franchise history must have some deal with the devil or something.

Hopefully his magic hasn't run out!!!

PacersFan1991
04-20-2011, 02:34 PM
I'm all for Vogel.

TheDon
04-20-2011, 02:48 PM
It's almost getting to the point to where I feel like if we don't I'll be sad but not necessarily disappointed. I really think Vogel could do well with a solid defensive assistant coach.

Since86
04-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Why a defensive assistant? IMHO, the defense isn't a concern. It's the offense that needs help.

But then again, I'm hesitant to judge either without a full offseason/training camp.

TheDon
04-20-2011, 04:59 PM
I think we've been scoring pretty well all things considered it doesn't look the greatest against the Bulls because the Bulls are a good defensive team but we still managed to score fairly well against them. The thing that drives me nuts is seeing either Hibbert, Hansbrough, or Foster out above the 3 point line trying to do only God knows what. I'm not the best x's and o's person but I want my bigs to never really get out past the 18' mark so they can be in best position to defend the rim and be in position to box out and get a rebound. The next time I see Hibbert come out above the 3 point line for anything but a trap on Rose :suicide4:

ilive4sports
04-20-2011, 05:22 PM
Why a defensive assistant? IMHO, the defense isn't a concern. It's the offense that needs help.

But then again, I'm hesitant to judge either without a full offseason/training camp.

In the playoffs, yes the offense needs more work than the defense. But in the regular season... the defense was pretty ugly. That was and still is my biggest worry about Vogel. I would hope they make changes in the offseason that ensure the defense being like it is against the Bulls rather than what it was during the season.

Neither side is perfect, but I felt the defensive system was worse than the offensive system.

troyc11a
04-20-2011, 09:25 PM
In the playoffs, yes the offense needs more work than the defense. But in the regular season... the defense was pretty ugly. That was and still is my biggest worry about Vogel. I would hope they make changes in the offseason that ensure the defense being like it is against the Bulls rather than what it was during the season.

Neither side is perfect, but I felt the defensive system was worse than the offensive system.

They both need help dont they? I am guessing an offseason acquisition could help solve some of the offensive problems. The problems on "D" could be solved by Vogel getting time to implement his system. He is obviously doing a good job of putting together game plans for the playoffs.

Unclebuck
04-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Here are some nice things coach Thibs said about Vogel
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/cbsports-thibodeau-praises-pacers-vogel-20110420,0,1734863.story


Thibodeau lauds Vogel's work with young Pacers


By K.C. Johnson Tribune reporter


Before Game 1 of the Chicago Bulls' Eastern Conference quarterfinals series against the Indiana Pacers, interim coach Frank Vogel praised Tom Thibodeau, saying he hoped one day he could coach like the Bulls' coach.

On Wednesday, Thibodeau returned the favor.

"He's well prepared for the job," Thibodeau said. "He's worked under two great coaches (Rick Pitino, Jim O'Brien). He studies hard. He prepares well. He's done a terrific job."

Vogel, 37, inserted Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough into the lineup when he took over for the fired O'Brien. This led to a deeper, better Pacers team.

"They have quality depth and not just up front but in their backcourt too," Thibodeau said.

"The big thing is at the beginning of the year, they had injuries. Now they are healthy.
They're a good team."

The Bulls lead the best-of-seven series 2-0 with Game 3 on Thursday night at Conseco Fieldhouse.

"They've always been a very high-scoring team," Thibodeau said. "What they've added this year is they've improved defensively. They have quality big guys. George is a really good defender. They have a lot of weapons.

"Danny Granger is one of the best scorers in the league. Darren Collison is really emerging. They're deep and keep coming at you. That's why they play so physical up front."

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Hicks
04-21-2011, 09:23 AM
Now add in the stuff Kravitz revealed about Frank today, and I'm even more sold on keeping him.

bellisimo
04-21-2011, 11:17 AM
"The big thing is at the beginning of the year, they had injuries. Now they are healthy.


who was injured earlier in the season? i thought we had a relatively healthy season no?

Unclebuck
04-21-2011, 11:21 AM
who was injured earlier in the season? i thought we had a relatively healthy season no?


Yeah, I'm not too sure. Hansbrough missed almost all of training camp and preseason. He wasn't really ready early on. Other than that,I don't know. Rush was suspended for the first 5 games.......

Trophy
04-21-2011, 11:25 AM
At this point, I'm pretty sure Bird will bring him back.

We haven't had a coach the whole team really liked in a while.

To think this guy was pretty much nothing on O'Brien's staff and a lot of people thought he was going to have the same mindset.

Wow he's 100% the opposite. Hard to believe we had a coach in Vogel on the bench for this long.

Thoreau87
04-21-2011, 11:33 AM
Well that just sold me! A coach who manages to get a 2 time NBA championship franchise their first series win in franchise history must have some deal with the devil or something.

Hopefully his magic hasn't run out!!!

Yeah... about that... I have dishonored my family with that comment.

I believe I was referencing too fast and forgot to think... He's got so many franchise records that I didn't even read what I wrote.

Please tell the original twin towers I'm sorry if you bump into them.