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Madsen's dancing skillz
04-11-2011, 09:14 PM
Let's be honest, we're probably not going contending for the championship next year. The lack of star talent in this year's free agency period only cements our fate even further. So I'm begging Bird and Vogel to keep our starting 5 the same and give them starter minutes. If we look beyond Granger, each starter has shown tantalizing glimpses of what type of player they could be. Look at each starter's (minus Granger) best month statistically.

Collison-32.1 MPG .459 FG% .897 FT% 6.1 APG 15.2 ppg (1 yr in NBA)
Hansbrough- 30.3 MPG .498 FG% .750 FT% 7.1 RPG 16.8 PPG (1 yr but really a rookie)
Hibbert-29.3 MPG .491 FG% .738 FT% 9.4 RPG 15.6 PPG (2yrs in NBA)
George-18.0 MPG .527 FG% .333 3P% .750 FT% 3.1 RPG 0.9 SPG 9.1 PPG (20 yr old rookie, playing out of position, and already one of the best defenders on the team)

So let these guys work and improve their game over the summer knowing they have their coach and president's confidence. Whenever the next season starts back up, we will see who becomes a go-to-guy, a solid starter or rotation material. Then the following summer, the Pacers can address those problem positions. In the meantime, the guys can develop some genuine chemistry and get to know each others' game, something that could be invaluable if this team does become a contender in the following years.

(First time writer, long time reader. nice to meet ya)

imawhat
04-11-2011, 09:39 PM
I hope we save some bullets for the 2012 free agency class. We'll have a chance to be a big player in a market with higher quality players.

PacerPenguins
04-11-2011, 09:46 PM
Let's be honest, we're probably not going contending for the championship next year. The lack of star talent in this year's free agency period only cements our fate even further. So I'm begging Bird and Vogel to keep our starting 5 the same and give them starter minutes. If we look beyond Granger, each starter has shown tantalizing glimpses of what type of player they could be. Look at each starter's (minus Granger) best month statistically.

Collison-32.1 MPG .459 FG% .897 FT% 6.1 APG 15.2 ppg (1 yr in NBA)
Hansbrough- 30.3 MPG .498 FG% .750 FT% 7.1 RPG 16.8 PPG (1 yr but really a rookie)
Hibbert-29.3 MPG .491 FG% .738 FT% 9.4 RPG 15.6 PPG (2yrs in NBA)
George-18.0 MPG .527 FG% .333 3P% .750 FT% 3.1 RPG 0.9 SPG 9.1 PPG (20 yr old rookie, playing out of position, and already one of the best defenders on the team)

So let these guys work and improve their game over the summer knowing they have their coach and president's confidence. Whenever the next season starts back up, we will see who becomes a go-to-guy, a solid starter or rotation material. Then the following summer, the Pacers can address those problem positions. In the meantime, the guys can develop some genuine chemistry and get to know each others' game, something that could be invaluable if this team does become a contender in the following years.

(First time writer, long time reader. nice to meet ya)

WELCOME!!

xBulletproof
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
I've said all along that we're more likely to use that cap space to make lopsided trades than sign free agents.

Professor S
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
I hope we save some bullets for the 2012 free agency class. We'll have a chance to be a big player in a market with higher quality players.

Even if we spend ALL our cap space in the offseason (doubtful), we still have over $10 million coming off the cap in 2012. We'll still be pretty big players in that market - I'm assuming we'll save enough space to make a run at least one of the big names in that free agent class.

ilive4sports
04-11-2011, 09:54 PM
I've said all along that we're more likely to use that cap space to make lopsided trades than sign free agents.

This would be the best way to get a big time player as the FA class isn't too special this off season. I don't think they will spend it all just to spend it.

Eleazar
04-11-2011, 09:59 PM
I agree with keeping low in the free agent market. Try to find a veteran PF/C, and maybe a veteran back-up PG (I like AJ, but I'm not sure if having 2 young PGs is a good thing). Beyond that I just want to see 1 year filler type players.

BringJackBack
04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
xBulletproof is right.

-If we can't get a 4 who can score WITHOUT the ball in his hands (Like a Paul Milsap or Josh Smith), rebound, and block shots, than don't look to upgrade that spot as it would be a waste of money. Try to fleece ATL or Utah for their power forwards.

Carl Landry, Jeff Green, etc. isn't going to cut it. They are free agents and they are not going to get us over the hump.

-Go for a starting 2 that is versatile, meaning that he can score both with the ball in his hands, and can come off of screens. A lot like a Jamal Crawford or OJ Mayo. Try to pull off a lopsided trade for OJ Mayo.

Try to plug in the holes in free agency. Get a backup point guard, a backup four, and get a backup C unless if we re-sign Foster.

beast23
04-11-2011, 10:08 PM
I think your plan requires more definition. Where are the additional players to fill out the roster going to come from?

The following players are under contract going into next season: Granger, Posey, DJones, Hansbrough, Hibbert, Collison, Price, George, Rush and Stephenson. These salaries total 34.9M.

Dunleavy, Foster, SJones, McRoberts and Ford are free agents.

So, assuming that the salary cap still exists and it is close to this year's cap, say 58M, that leaves about 23M in cap space. An additional 4-5 players are still required to fill out the roster. Under your plan, I presume we would signt a first round draft choice. If the second round draft choice is good enough to make the team, that would bring the roster to 12 players.

But, if you look at how the roster is composed, it will have a significant number of holes that must be filled in order to continue to progress forward. Without acquiring some additional talent, I don't believe the team can be as competitive as it has been during the current season. We could re-sign Dunleavey, Foster and McRoberts at reasonable salaries to fill out the roster, giving us essentially the same roster that we have this season. And that might be about the cheapest way we could go. But we would lose ground to the other teams in the Eastern Conference.

I personally don't see how any plan looking at short-term or long-term improvement of the team that considers financial well-being of the franchise can possible succeed without committing dollars from out cap space towards one or two free agent signings this summer.

Infinite MAN_force
04-11-2011, 10:18 PM
I've said all along that we're more likely to use that cap space to make lopsided trades than sign free agents.

Yep. Nobody is holding a gun to our heads forcing us to sign free agents out of a sub par free agent class... that also doesn't mean you do nothing.

Being under the cap allows you to make trades without matching salary. It's like having expiring contracts, except better. You can offer the team you are trading with immediate cap relief by taking their contracts.

This is why our number one "free agent" target this summer should be Josh Smith. He fits both need (impact defensive player) and position (PF). He seems to be available, and his current team is looking to get out of his salary. The Pacers are in a perfect position to make a trade happen here.

On another note, I hate the idea of pursuing Al Jefferson. Jefferson and Hibbert would make a TERRIBLE defensive front court. Josh Smith makes way more sense.

beast23
04-11-2011, 10:19 PM
xBulletproof is right.

-If we can't get a 4 who can score WITHOUT the ball in his hands (Like a Paul Milsap or Josh Smith), rebound, and block shots, than don't look to upgrade that spot as it would be a waste of money. Try to fleece ATL or Utah for their power forwards.

Carl Landry, Jeff Green, etc. isn't going to cut it. They are free agents and they are not going to get us over the hump.

-Go for a starting 2 that is versatile, meaning that he can score both with the ball in his hands, and can come off of screens. A lot like a Jamal Crawford or OJ Mayo. Try to pull off a lopsided trade for OJ Mayo.

Try to plug in the holes in free agency. Get a backup point guard, a backup four, and get a backup C unless if we re-sign Foster.

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of Landry. It just depends on what the Pacers decide to do with the 4 and 5. For example, if they decide to continue with Hansbrough as the starter and re-sign McRoberts as primarily the backup 5 with a few minutes at the 4, then I could see the signing of Landry at reasonable dollars as a means of adding depth to the 4 position.

Under no circumstances would I sign a player like Crawford or Mayo at the 2 if we do not significantly strengthen the frontcourt defensively. If we do bring in a much better defensive starter at 4, then this team will NOT move forward unless we bring in a much better defensive starter at the 2.

Crawford and Mayo do not cut it defensively in my book and although both are offensively gifted players, as far as I'm concerned each would be a downgrade defensively at 2 as compared to George or even Dunleavy.

The starting unit must be strengthened defensively. If it is not done at the 4, it absolutely must be done at the 2.

Eleazar
04-11-2011, 10:25 PM
But, if you look at how the roster is composed, it will have a significant number of holes that must be filled in order to continue to progress forward. Without acquiring some additional talent, I don't believe the team can be as competitive as it has been during the current season. We could re-sign Dunleavey, Foster and McRoberts at reasonable salaries to fill out the roster, giving us essentially the same roster that we have this season. And that might be about the cheapest way we could go. But we would lose ground to the other teams in the Eastern Conference.

I personally don't see how any plan looking at short-term or long-term improvement of the team that considers financial well-being of the franchise can possible succeed without committing dollars from out cap space towards one or two free agent signings this summer.

I don't understand how not signing a FA automatically means the team is standing still and everyone else is getting better. Players are constantly changing skill level, sometimes the best the thing to do is just sit still and let your players get better, especially for a young team. I'm not saying this team shouldn't sign anyone, but not signing anyone doesn't automatically mean every team gets better and we don't.

Madsen's dancing skillz
04-11-2011, 10:37 PM
I think your plan requires more definition. Where are the additional players to fill out the roster going to come from?

The following players are under contract going into next season: Granger, Posey, DJones, Hansbrough, Hibbert, Collison, Price, George, Rush and Stephenson. These salaries total 34.9M.

Dunleavy, Foster, SJones, McRoberts and Ford are free agents.

So, assuming that the salary cap still exists and it is close to this year's cap, say 58M, that leaves about 23M in cap space. An additional 4-5 players are still required to fill out the roster. Under your plan, I presume we would signt a first round draft choice. If the second round draft choice is good enough to make the team, that would bring the roster to 12 players.

But, if you look at how the roster is composed, it will have a significant number of holes that must be filled in order to continue to progress forward. Without acquiring some additional talent, I don't believe the team can be as competitive as it has been during the current season. We could re-sign Dunleavey, Foster and McRoberts at reasonable salaries to fill out the roster, giving us essentially the same roster that we have this season. And that might be about the cheapest way we could go. But we would lose ground to the other teams in the Eastern Conference.

I personally don't see how any plan looking at short-term or long-term improvement of the team that considers financial well-being of the franchise can possible succeed without committing dollars from out cap space towards one or two free agent signings this summer.

You're partially right. We probably do need to fill a few positions for role players this offseason. I wouldn't mind signing a player like Dunleavey or McRoberts for a reasonable price. What I don't want to see is the Pacers signing someone this summer who would eat a lot of our salary cap space while demanding starter minutes. The whole point of my argument is that we have a very young starting five (in terms of NBA experience) and we should give the current starters a chance to work on their game, give them significant playing time and see what emerges. They all have shown potential to be very good players in this league. Have the front office and coaching staff give them a chance to get to the next level before we make a play for major talent in 2012.

Pacerized
04-11-2011, 10:37 PM
Everything comes down to the new cba now. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose with a hard cap that is lower then the current LT threshold. If this goes through the cba has to give a way out for teams that are way over the cap which may be a grandfather clause, or slow implementation of the cap. I think it's more likely that an exception would be giving to wave 1 player in a buyout but not count that against the cap similar to the Alan Houston rule that came out with the last cba.
No team is going to cut their franchise player but if this happens we may see more talent available then we know about now. We may also be in a unique position to take advantage of a buyers market by taking on salary.
I really hope for a tough CBA.
No matter what I don't see our young group of players developing into a title contender without adding some talent. If the talents not their during this off season then I agree with you that we should wait until the trade deadline or next off season.

Madsen's dancing skillz
04-11-2011, 10:51 PM
Yep. Nobody is holding a gun to our heads forcing us to sign free agents out of a sub par free agent class... that also doesn't mean you do nothing.

Being under the cap allows you to make trades without matching salary. It's like having expiring contracts, except better. You can offer the team you are trading with immediate cap relief by taking their contracts.

This is why our number one "free agent" target this summer should be Josh Smith. He fits both need (impact defensive player) and position (PF). He seems to be available, and his current team is looking to get out of his salary. The Pacers are in a perfect position to make a trade happen here.

On another note, I hate the idea of pursuing Al Jefferson. Jefferson and Hibbert would make a TERRIBLE defensive front court. Josh Smith makes way more sense.

While I would love to have Smith on our team, I'm not sure I would make that signing this summer. What if Hansbrough makes that leap, gets his jump shop down, gets to the foul line more? What if Hansbrough averages 17 and 8 next year while Roy remains relatively stagnant? Wouldn't it make more sense to use our cap space on a strong, defensive-minded center the following year? You can make the same argument with George at SG. We keep gushing over our players' potential, but it's of no use if the Pacers don't give them an opportunity to actually fulfill it.

ndcoltsnpacers
04-11-2011, 11:16 PM
While I would love to have Smith on our team, I'm not sure I would make that signing this summer. What if Hansbrough makes that leap, gets his jump shop down, gets to the foul line more? What if Hansbrough averages 17 and 8 next year while Roy remains relatively stagnant? Wouldn't it make more sense to use our cap space on a strong, defensive-minded center the following year? You can make the same argument with George at SG. We keep gushing over our players' potential, but it's of no use if the Pacers don't give them an opportunity to actually fulfill it.

See this is the thing, we have all this money and it's great. But I almost feel like we're a year or two away from knowing what we've really got from some of these guys. Committing a decent chunk of money toward someone who's NOT a superstar (or even an all-star maybe) to put Hansbrough or Paul George on the bench taking less minutes seems like a good way to have our progression hit a wall. As in maybe we get good enough to get up to the 4th or 5th seed but never a real contender, like the Hawks. I'm perfectly fine with the idea of signing McRoberts back for hopefully a reasonable contract and having Dunleavy and Foster back for significantly less money and sitting on our nest egg and letting it grow even more in 2012.

beast23
04-11-2011, 11:31 PM
I don't understand how not signing a FA automatically means the team is standing still and everyone else is getting better. Players are constantly changing skill level, sometimes the best the thing to do is just sit still and let your players get better, especially for a young team. I'm not saying this team shouldn't sign anyone, but not signing anyone doesn't automatically mean every team gets better and we don't.
I can see some of our younger players improving on the offensive end of the court. But quite frankly, that isn't going to make that much difference on the scoreboard. We don't have problems scoring points right now, and as a team, we simply won't show a huge jump in the number of points we score in a game.

So, getting down to the bottom line, to show significant improvement in our won-loss record with the same roster, it's defensive improvement that we need, specifically in our backcourt players being able to prevent dribble penetration, being able to stop the PnR and man-on-man frontcourt coverage.

I don't believe we have a 2 on the team that can show enough improvement to be able to cover for Collision enough to prevent fouls from piling up on our frontcourt players.

I don't believe that our present frontcourt players will improve significantly in man-on-man or even 2-on-2 coverage. In fact, if we lose both Foster and McRoberts to free agency or retirement, I believe that cheap replacements in our frontcourt will only make our already weak frontcourt defense even worse.

It has been years since I have seen a Pacers team defend the PnR adequately. No matter what, I have no reason to believe this will change next season, especially while utilizing the same players.

So, filling in our roster with cheap replacement players to me is like waving the white flag. In other words, lets roll the dice and pray to the bball gods that our youthful players will improve enough to enable the team to continue moving forward. Essentially, let's leave it to chance.

On the other hand, many of the other EC teams will be very active in the FA market and in trades, acquring players that they KNOW will help plug weaknesses that currently exist in their teams. In other words, they are NOT leaving anything to chance, they are making calculated moves that very likely WILL improve their teams.

Can't you see the difference? Not going after FAs and trades leaves things to chance. Very risky. A strategic plan to identify your weaknesses and plug some of them through player acquisitions is much more likely to improve the bottom line (i.e. W-L record).

That does not mean that we have to try to improve every problem we have in this one off-season. If suitable players are available at decent prices, I would plug as many holes as possible. If the right players are not available, or just don't meet the "standard for improvement" that Bird has in mind, then pass and wait for a later opportunity near the trade deadline or the summer of 2012.

My entire point is, if the opportunity is there at the right price, then jeez, take advantage of it. It's not like we do not have the cap space to afford it.

But leave nothing to chance. Do what is necessary to GUARANTEE that the team continues improving and moving forward. Standing pat and taking the conservative approach is a smart move in a declining market. From nearly all reports, this summer could provide a bull market on players as many teams attempt to reduce their team salaries by moving some of their players to teams that have ample cap space. We should be out there shopping... but if the right opportunity is not there, it still does not mean that we have to buy.

-----

P.S. I've provided my thoughts on acquiring players based on weaknesses in the way we play. I have overlooked perhaps the biggest reason for bringing in new players. I shouldn't really have to explain it, but the biggest reason we should be a player in the FA market or in seeking trades is to acquire a leader. Without a leader, even an improvement in the team's defensive performance may not be enough to get us over the hump.

Hicks
04-11-2011, 11:55 PM
I'm hoping we make a couple of mid-priced acquisitions, and then after that I hope we sit on the rest for now. Maybe we even have enough left that, combined with the space Posey's deal will create, we can go after a nice piece in 2012.

With the right veteran or two added to this team, we could jump to mid-seed (4th/5th) territory next season, I think.

Anthem
04-12-2011, 12:30 AM
I've said all along that we're more likely to use that cap space to make lopsided trades than sign free agents.
As have I. And I still feel that way.

Strummer
04-12-2011, 01:46 AM
I'd like to see the Pacers try to keep significantly under the cap for the next several years. The flexibility is important.

And what about all the talk early in the season about the money the Pacers were losing? And the talk of moving the team? Maybe that all got ironed out. But if we can operate at $20 million under our present salary level for the next 2 years, wouldn't that go a long way toward making the team profitable?

I think we could sign a free agent (or trade) for $7 million a year and still be $20 million under the cap. That's probably a sound fiscal decision for this year.

DaveP63
04-12-2011, 08:39 AM
It is a matter of what we want versus what we need...

What we want: A new/veteran/better PG, SG, SF, PF, C...

What we need depending on who is resigned: A guy that can get his own and hit "that" shot, any time, any where. Normally, that guy is not going to be your center. Nor is it normally your power forward. We have 275 small forwards and your starter is Danny Granger for the near future. We all tend to vomit blood around here if the point guard doesn't have more assists than points, so that leaves the 2 guard...So who do you get and who do you sit?

troyc11a
04-12-2011, 08:54 AM
Not only do I agree with some of the stuff mentioned here, let's remember that last year teams gave away good players along with a draft pick to a team willing to take on their salary. You guys remember the Bulls giving Washington their 1st rd pick just to take Hinrich? With the new CBA, I bet teams will be more desperate this offseason even though there are no mega-stars to lower your cap space for!

graphic-er
04-12-2011, 09:50 AM
Pacers need to go out and get Smith in the off-season. Give ATL a combination of Hansbrough, Rush, and our 1st.

Hansbrough has developed into a pretty decent trade chip in my opinion. There are going to be teams enamored with him in the off-season. We need to cash in now. Offensively he is not going to get much better than he is now. Of all PFs in the league his shot is probably the easiest to block. Smith does everything that Hansbrough does, only better. Getting rid of Rush will allow us to more easily resign Dunleavy. We have to get rid of one of our Wing players this off-season. So if you want Dunleavy back then you need to get rid of Rush or Jones. Too much money tied up in that position. We have 3 wing players making 3-4 million each, and 2 other wing players making over 10 million each.

MyFavMartin
04-12-2011, 09:54 AM
I think Detroit is a prime example of spending money for the sake of signing free agents and wasting a bunch of cap space.

Bird (or whoever is brought in) and Morway will spend it wisely. Cap space + draft picks/young talent = ???

We'll see...

I love the team, but one or two additions and we can really move up in the East...

graphic-er
04-12-2011, 10:02 AM
I'd also like to see us look at Felton in the off-season to beef up our PG rotation. DC has been playing good recently though.

naptownmenace
04-12-2011, 10:40 AM
Why not aim for the stars? If they save enough money this summer they might be able to make a pitch to team up Dwight Howard and Chris Paul with Danny Granger.

The Pacers need to make as big a splash as possible but will probably be competing with ORL, NY, and NJ to land Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. It's also possible that Howard might accept an extension next season and forgo free agency.

Either way, they should aim really high and use their cap space and future 1st round picks to make a run at a title and not just settle for adding role players.

BillS
04-12-2011, 11:29 AM
Why not aim for the stars? If they save enough money this summer they might be able to make a pitch to team up Dwight Howard and Chris Paul with Danny Granger.

:lol2:

I think I wet myself...

Shade
04-12-2011, 11:43 AM
I've said all along that we're more likely to use that cap space to make lopsided trades than sign free agents.

I've also been stressing this for a while, but most people seem to overlook it.

mattie
04-12-2011, 11:51 AM
:lol2:

I think I wet myself...

If Dwight decides to skip town in 2012 and Indiana kept their cap space, we'd be one of the best places for him to go if his goal was to win. If Indiana did take themselves seriously and go after him, I wouldn't be surprised if he signed her at all.

The idea that no big time free agent would sign here is ridiculous. If Indy was a black hole sure, but its not. It's a great little town that two of the biggest NFL stars in the country love living in, I don't think dwight would be opposed if it meant having Granger, Paul and Collison he got to play with.

It would certainly suck for Roy, but I'll take winning. And winning a lot.

Lou Bega
04-12-2011, 11:59 AM
Paul George & DC starting in the backcourt again next year Ping-pong balls? The Pacers won't win 41 games. The PG needs to be upgraded, I am not a fan of Darren Collison. Paul George hasn't had a much more productive rookie year than Brandon Rush. He needs to have a good offseason and improve his game.

I would not be suprised to see the cap space used w/ Danny Granger and James Posey in a super mega summer block buster 4-6 team deal.

graphic-er
04-12-2011, 12:02 PM
Really....anybody who thinks Dwight Howard is coming to Indiana needs to be committed for substance abuse. Can you name any superstar in the history of the league that has actually signed with the Indiana's, Milwaukee's, an Clevelands of the League?
Howard is going west and will probably end up a Laker, or in Texas.

mattie
04-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Really....anybody who thinks Dwight Howard is coming to Indiana needs to be committed for substance abuse. Can you name any superstar in the history of the league that has actually signed with the Indiana's, Milwaukee's, an Clevelands of the League?
Howard is going west and will probably end up a Laker, or in Texas.

Sure that's why it won't happen. Every one ever involved with the NBA preaches night and day stars need a big market. I think it's a joke. They start to believe it certainly. But in Howard's case the guy wants to win. The best case scenario for Howard is to go somewhere he gets paid and he wins. He doesn't need to be surrounded by a bigger market. .Trust me, he'd get on TV every where he goes regardless as to the market.

If stars needed big markets, Peyton Manning would play in NY, Dwight Freeney would play in Miami, and Bob Sanders prior to this off season would have already signed with New England. And you can't argue, oh well football is a different sport. It doesn't matter. If stars crave media markets, that is exactly what would happen.

Oddly enough only in the NBA do you hear every single media personality preach about how stars need a bigger market.

Shade
04-12-2011, 12:22 PM
Why not aim for the stars? If they save enough money this summer they might be able to make a pitch to team up Dwight Howard and Chris Paul with Danny Granger.

The Pacers need to make as big a splash as possible but will probably be competing with ORL, NY, and NJ to land Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. It's also possible that Howard might accept an extension next season and forgo free agency.

Either way, they should aim really high and use their cap space and future 1st round picks to make a run at a title and not just settle for adding role players.

We aren't going to lure a Dwight Howard or a Chris Paul here, but an Eric Gordon is a very real possibility. And, IIRC, he'll be a FA after next season.

Shade
04-12-2011, 12:23 PM
Oddly enough only in the NBA do you hear every single media personality preach about how stars need a bigger market.

That's because that's how Stern's NBA is marketed. It starts at the top.

PaceBalls
04-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Larry has shown that he can be very creative with trades. Getting Collison is a great example. I certainly don't expect him to go all "Joe Dumars" on us and sign mediocre players to huge contracts.

naptownmenace
04-12-2011, 01:06 PM
We aren't going to lure a Dwight Howard or a Chris Paul here, but an Eric Gordon is a very real possibility. And, IIRC, he'll be a FA after next season.

I wasn't making an either or statement. I think the only possibility to get Dwight to come to Indy would be to also get Chris Paul. I doubt NY, NJ, or LA will have the money to go after a pairing or CP3/DWill + DHoward so that would give Indy a slight advantage.

It's been rumored that CP3 and Dwight would love to play on the same team. If Orlando can't afford both players (they have Arenas' and Turkoglu's ridiculous contracts to deal with) and New Orleans is still in dire financial straits, the Pacers could try and grant their wish.

They could offer a max or near-max contract to both players and say, "We've offered a max contract to your friend and if you agree we're positive they'll agree and then we'll have a team that rivals Miami's big 3."

CP3 and Dwight already have major endorsements and neither of them play in a large major market city now. A year from now the Pacers could be a 5 or 6 seed in the East so they would be going to a team that is competitive and could be a contender with them on the squad. Another thing TPTB need to remind free agents of is that 15 million in Indianapolis is like 20 million in NY or LA because the property and living costs is so much lower.

Hicks
04-12-2011, 01:07 PM
Larry has shown that he can be very creative with trades. Getting Collison is a great example. I certainly don't expect him to go all "Joe Dumars" on us and sign mediocre players to huge contracts.

God help us if he falls in love with the talent of someone on the '11 market. Then you will see Joe Dumars type signings.

He's established in the draft/trades that if he wants something bad enough, he'll overpay to get it.

BPump33
04-12-2011, 01:11 PM
God help us if he falls in love with the talent of someone on the '11 market. Then you will see Joe Dumars type signings.

He's established in the draft/trades that if he wants something bad enough, he'll overpay to get it.

FWIW I already mentioned the Q&A with Morway, but this just reminded me. My buddy asked Morway to please "not pull a Dumars on us this summer and overpay for what's out there" and Morway laughed and said he wouldn't.

Shade
04-12-2011, 01:38 PM
I wasn't making an either or statement. I think the only possibility to get Dwight to come to Indy would be to also get Chris Paul. I doubt NY, NJ, or LA will have the money to go after a pairing or CP3/DWill + DHoward so that would give Indy a slight advantage.

It's been rumored that CP3 and Dwight would love to play on the same team. If Orlando can't afford both players (they have Arenas' and Turkoglu's ridiculous contracts to deal with) and New Orleans is still in dire financial straits, the Pacers could try and grant their wish.

They could offer a max or near-max contract to both players and say, "We've offered a max contract to your friend and if you agree we're positive they'll agree and then we'll have a team that rivals Miami's big 3."

CP3 and Dwight already have major endorsements and neither of them play in a large major market city now. A year from now the Pacers could be a 5 or 6 seed in the East so they would be going to a team that is competitive and could be a contender with them on the squad. Another thing TPTB need to remind free agents of is that 15 million in Indianapolis is like 20 million in NY or LA because the property and living costs is so much lower.

If you can't get either, you can't get both.

mattie
04-12-2011, 06:12 PM
I wasn't making an either or statement. I think the only possibility to get Dwight to come to Indy would be to also get Chris Paul. I doubt NY, NJ, or LA will have the money to go after a pairing or CP3/DWill + DHoward so that would give Indy a slight advantage.

It's been rumored that CP3 and Dwight would love to play on the same team. If Orlando can't afford both players (they have Arenas' and Turkoglu's ridiculous contracts to deal with) and New Orleans is still in dire financial straits, the Pacers could try and grant their wish.

They could offer a max or near-max contract to both players and say, "We've offered a max contract to your friend and if you agree we're positive they'll agree and then we'll have a team that rivals Miami's big 3."

CP3 and Dwight already have major endorsements and neither of them play in a large major market city now. A year from now the Pacers could be a 5 or 6 seed in the East so they would be going to a team that is competitive and could be a contender with them on the squad. Another thing TPTB need to remind free agents of is that 15 million in Indianapolis is like 20 million in NY or LA because the property and living costs is so much lower.

I really think if Larry wanted to he could get them both. I really have no doubt in my mind actually.

It's just highly unlikely that Larry would just sit on his money and wait to sign both. But if he wanted to he definitely could.

It would take Larry making a big sell in order to convince them to come, but it could be done. See, if you actually consider everything other than the non-stop media propaganda it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense for those two to seek a big market currently. It just doesn't financially, or if they want to win.

It would take Larry selling the Pacers, Indianapolis both to them and on ESPN as well. He'd have to help them look past the bull**** basically. But could he do it if he was aggressive enough? Sure. We just know there is little more than a 1% chance he'd even try.

PacerPride33
04-12-2011, 07:11 PM
The idea of obtaining Dwight and CP3 to both come here is highly unlikely, but financially, it does make sense and definetely worth trying. I'm sure NO and Orlando would do what Denver did, and that is trading their star players in exchange for assets, that way they don't end up with nothing (Cleveland). This would mean Dwight and CP3 would have to guarantee they'd sign the contract extension when they got here. Trading Orlando Roy and NO Darren Collison would give both teams young prospects at the position they were losing. Basically, trade anyone (except for Danny and Paul if possible) and future draft picks to aquire CP3 and Howard. I think this makes more sense than to wait and hope they'd both come via free agency

ksuttonjr76
04-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Pacers need to go out and get Smith in the off-season. Give ATL a combination of Hansbrough, Rush, and our 1st.

Hansbrough has developed into a pretty decent trade chip in my opinion. There are going to be teams enamored with him in the off-season. We need to cash in now. Offensively he is not going to get much better than he is now. Of all PFs in the league his shot is probably the easiest to block. Smith does everything that Hansbrough does, only better. Getting rid of Rush will allow us to more easily resign Dunleavy. We have to get rid of one of our Wing players this off-season. So if you want Dunleavy back then you need to get rid of Rush or Jones. Too much money tied up in that position. We have 3 wing players making 3-4 million each, and 2 other wing players making over 10 million each.

Tyler has been upgraded from "Shouldn't be a starter" to "He won't get any better offensively"? Interesting.

imbtyler
04-12-2011, 07:51 PM
I think that a huge part of what needs to happen this offseason is trading away Dahntay, Rush, and Posey. They're not vital to our success, they're clogging the wing position and roster overall, and they can be exchanged for better pieces that we'll actually need. They're not completely useless players (wellll, besides Posey), but with the cap space we'll have, they're good enough to trade as assets to teams who can use them.

I agree that we should let our starters grow into their roles, but I still believe that we need someone at SG and PF who can do the job properly. For the time being, I'd rather have Paul George and Hans in the second rotation, providing their talents where they can shine, rather than being less active around the starters. In time, they'll both evolve into the roles (by then, Paul might be starting at the 3), as well as develop a stronger NBA game. By that time, whoever we pick up to fill the spots can still be used, or we can trade them away for better pieces/picks.

With that said, I'd much rather have a choice of free agents from the 2012 class. But if we can find someone to fit the bill now, whether that be through 2011 signings or (preferably) trades, then we won't have to worry about FA and just go straight to planning for the playoffs.

ksuttonjr76
04-12-2011, 08:21 PM
I think that a huge part of what needs to happen this offseason is trading away Dahntay, Rush, and Posey. They're not vital to our success, they're clogging the wing position and roster overall, and they can be exchanged for better pieces that we'll actually need. They're not completely useless players (wellll, besides Posey), but with the cap space we'll have, they're good enough to trade as assets to teams who can use them.

I agree that we should let our starters grow into their roles, but I still believe that we need someone at SG and PF who can do the job properly. For the time being, I'd rather have Paul George and Hans in the second rotation, providing their talents where they can shine, rather than being less active around the starters. In time, they'll both evolve into the roles (by then, Paul might be starting at the 3), as well as develop a stronger NBA game. By that time, whoever we pick up to fill the spots can still be used, or we can trade them away for better pieces/picks.

With that said, I'd much rather have a choice of free agents from the 2012 class. But if we can find someone to fit the bill now, whether that be through 2011 signings or (preferably) trades, then we won't have to worry about FA and just go straight to planning for the playoffs.

It's funny how we want our players to get better, but we keep wanting to play them against JV talent.

CableKC
04-12-2011, 08:37 PM
I think that a huge part of what needs to happen this offseason is trading away Dahntay, Rush, and Posey. They're not vital to our success, they're clogging the wing position and roster overall, and they can be exchanged for better pieces that we'll actually need. They're not completely useless players (wellll, besides Posey), but with the cap space we'll have, they're good enough to trade as assets to teams who can use them.

I agree that we should let our starters grow into their roles, but I still believe that we need someone at SG and PF who can do the job properly. For the time being, I'd rather have Paul George and Hans in the second rotation, providing their talents where they can shine, rather than being less active around the starters. In time, they'll both evolve into the roles (by then, Paul might be starting at the 3), as well as develop a stronger NBA game. By that time, whoever we pick up to fill the spots can still be used, or we can trade them away for better pieces/picks.

With that said, I'd much rather have a choice of free agents from the 2012 class. But if we can find someone to fit the bill now, whether that be through 2011 signings or (preferably) trades, then we won't have to worry about FA and just go straight to planning for the playoffs.
I disagree about Posey and Inferno.

Posey was more of a throw in to get Collison....but I think that he does provide a good locker-room presense that also acts as a mentor to the younger players. I agree that Posey isn't in the long-term plans...but I think that Bird values his presense in the Locker-room and his Playoff experience. He may be included in some bigger trades to keep the Salary cap down...but IMHO...Bird won't actively be looking to move him.

As for Inferno....he is the exact type of Players that you want on your Team....a veteran Role Player ( yes, that is somewhat overpaid ) that can provide some hard nosed defense and knows what it is to go through the grind of the Playoffs. This is one of the reasons why I think Bird signed him for the long-term.

Larry Staverman
04-12-2011, 08:42 PM
I'm hoping we make a couple of mid-priced acquisitions, and then after that I hope we sit on the rest for now. Maybe we even have enough left that, combined with the space Posey's deal will create, we can go after a nice piece in 2012.

Remember Hibbert's extension will eat up a good chunk of that 2012 space with Hans and Collison due for extensions the following year

pacer4ever
04-12-2011, 08:58 PM
Remember Hibbert's extension will eat up a good chunk of that 2012 space with Hans and Collison due for extensions the following year

you can sign the FA then you resign Hibbert because of the Bird rights we have and he is a RFA. If Roy wants anymore than 5yrs 50m I would let him walk

beast23
04-12-2011, 09:56 PM
you can sign the FA then you resign Hibbert because of the Bird rights we have and he is a RFA. If Roy wants anymore than 5yrs 50m I would let him walk


If the new CBA works the same as the present CBA, we absolutely CANNOT sign the FA first then re-sign Hibbert. Under the present CBA, if you want the FA from another team as well as your own FA, your own FA must be signed first, then whatever cap space is left can be used to sign the FA from the other team.

The point that "Larry Staverman" makes is an important one. We can only hope we are not put in a position that we would need to pay Hibbert as much as 10M per season to retain him. It also provides a very good reason for obtaining players that we need either this summer or by the trade deadline next season, especially if we might be looking to obtain more than one higher-priced player.

troyc11a
04-12-2011, 10:43 PM
Why not aim for the stars? If they save enough money this summer they might be able to make a pitch to team up Dwight Howard and Chris Paul with Danny Granger.

The Pacers need to make as big a splash as possible but will probably be competing with ORL, NY, and NJ to land Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. It's also possible that Howard might accept an extension next season and forgo free agency.

Either way, they should aim really high and use their cap space and future 1st round picks to make a run at a title and not just settle for adding role players.

Hey I would like to see that happen. I agree with you that they should set the bar high. No way in the world they would even consider Indiana if larger markets were a possibility. Always aim high though, but have a plan B as well!

Infinite MAN_force
04-13-2011, 01:06 AM
While I would love to have Smith on our team, I'm not sure I would make that signing this summer. What if Hansbrough makes that leap, gets his jump shop down, gets to the foul line more? What if Hansbrough averages 17 and 8 next year while Roy remains relatively stagnant? Wouldn't it make more sense to use our cap space on a strong, defensive-minded center the following year? You can make the same argument with George at SG. We keep gushing over our players' potential, but it's of no use if the Pacers don't give them an opportunity to actually fulfill it.

It is this simple. I like Tyler, but at the NBA level, Roy Hibbert is a MUCH better building block than Tyler Hansbrough. I don't even think it's that debatable.

Ask any GM in the league who they would rather build around.

I also don't believe Tyler will ever be a better NBA player than Josh Smith is right now. At best? He MIGHT equal him... and I have my doubts about that. You absolutely give up Tyler to bring in a player the caliber of Smith, who is also an absolutely perfect fit with your budding 7-2 post presence in Roy Hibbert.

Hibbert and Josh Smith would make for a shot blocking factory of a front court, and that has a ton of value. Defense wins championship. To say we should keep Hansbrough and look to replace Hibbert is absurd in my opinion. 7-2 center's with a skill level like Hibbert are nigh impossible to find. He may not be dominant necessarily, but in the right situation with the right players around him? A HUGE asset. With today's tendency toward undersized center's he creates a big match up problem with the majority of teams in the league.

Madsen's dancing skillz
04-13-2011, 01:44 AM
It is this simple. I like Tyler, but at the NBA level, Roy Hibbert is a MUCH better building block than Tyler Hansbrough. I don't even think it's that debatable.

Ask any GM in the league who they would rather build around.

I also don't believe Tyler will ever be a better NBA player than Josh Smith is right now. At best? He MIGHT equal him... and I have my doubts about that. You absolutely give up Tyler to bring in a player the caliber of Smith, who is also an absolutely perfect fit with your budding 7-2 post presence in Roy Hibbert.

Hibbert and Josh Smith would make for a shot blocking factory of a front court, and that has a ton of value. Defense wins championship. To say we should keep Hansbrough and look to replace Hibbert is absurd in my opinion. 7-2 center's with a skill level like Hibbert are nigh impossible to find. He may not be dominant necessarily, but in the right situation with the right players around him? A HUGE asset. With today's tendency toward undersized center's he creates a big match up problem with the majority of teams in the league.

Hey I agree that if you have a good center, you build around him before anyone else. And Hibbert has certainly has shown potential. But he has been excruciatingly inconsistent. (As have every other starter)

I think I kinda structured my scenario wrong. Let me put it this way, what if Hansbrough improves a lot over the summer? You would no longer need to use all that cap space for Josh Smith or any other starting PF, as you already have a quality PF. You would have to find a good backup PF that can match up against players Hansbrough has trouble with, but someone like Josh Smith would be unnecessary. Now you have your starting PF and enough cap space to make a serious run at an Eric Gordon or Chris Paul. And if players see a young, competitive team with large amounts of cash to splash, it will just make the Pacers all that more attractive.

Rogco
04-13-2011, 08:31 AM
Let's be honest, we're probably not going contending for the championship next year. The lack of star talent in this year's free agency period only cements our fate even further. So I'm begging Bird and Vogel to keep our starting 5 the same and give them starter minutes.

Then the following summer, the Pacers can address those problem positions. In the meantime, the guys can develop some genuine chemistry and get to know each others' game, something that could be invaluable if this team does become a contender in the following years.

(First time writer, long time reader. nice to meet ya)

Nice post (especially since it's what I think! :) ) If we go out and spend all our cap space this summer on the craptastic free agency market we'll just pull a Detriot and end up with this summer's versions of Ben Gordon and Charlie villanueva. The two are backups making damn near 20 mil, and it's not like they were traded for to get rid of players or bring in other players, they were free agent additions and that teams a train wreck. But remember when they signed them, everyone though Detroit would be great again as they had a good nucleus and lots of cap room, instead they're the most dysfunctional team in the league and a good lesson to the Pacers in what not to do.

If we can, I'd like to see us have at least 20 mil if not upwards of 30 mil in cap room next year (depending on CBA!), and I'd love to turn some of the cap space into another draft pick next year, which is shaping up to be an excellent draft.

I say we re-sign Foster, McBob and maybe Dunleavy if he's cheap, cut Lance, sign our first and maybe second rounders and then bring over one of our foreign big men to fill out the roster. We maybe can get Foster on a one year deal if he's thinking of retiring and have him help train our foreign big (then keep Foster around in the organization, he's awesome!) So go into next year well under the cap with Posey's expiring to cover's Hibbert's extension. Also, draft a pg in the draft this year to cover the loss of AJ next year and cause I think the is more pg depth than any other position this year.

So yes, this means we put off our big retooling for another year, but we put it off until after a new CBA when teams are cash strapped and we're looking good, and there is an amazing free agent class and a potentially excellent draft class. I think if we do this it could change the fortunes of the Pacers for years to come (just means next year instead of hoping for a much better team we'll be looking for growth from PG and from our draftees.)

naptownmenace
04-13-2011, 09:51 AM
It is this simple. I like Tyler, but at the NBA level, Roy Hibbert is a MUCH better building block than Tyler Hansbrough. I don't even think it's that debatable.

Ask any GM in the league who they would rather build around.

I also don't believe Tyler will ever be a better NBA player than Josh Smith is right now. At best? He MIGHT equal him... and I have my doubts about that. You absolutely give up Tyler to bring in a player the caliber of Smith, who is also an absolutely perfect fit with your budding 7-2 post presence in Roy Hibbert.

Hibbert and Josh Smith would make for a shot blocking factory of a front court, and that has a ton of value. Defense wins championship. To say we should keep Hansbrough and look to replace Hibbert is absurd in my opinion. 7-2 center's with a skill level like Hibbert are nigh impossible to find. He may not be dominant necessarily, but in the right situation with the right players around him? A HUGE asset. With today's tendency toward undersized center's he creates a big match up problem with the majority of teams in the league.

Tyler is one of my favorite players on the Pacers squad. I like him more than Paul George and DC at this point. I would still be willing to trade him for a player like Josh Smith because of the defense that he brings.

On the boards they're probably a wash and even offensively, considering that Tyler will probably improve in that area, they might be equal but on the defensive end is where Josh Smith has the absolute advantage.

The problem with him on the Hawks is that both he and Horford are really PFs. Still they work pretty well together. If you put him in the line-up with a true 7'2" Center that can play the low post on offense and defend the low post on defense, I think he could really shine.

naptownmenace
04-13-2011, 10:01 AM
I say we re-sign Foster, McBob and maybe Dunleavy if he's cheap, cut Lance, sign our first and maybe second rounders and then bring over one of our foreign big men to fill out the roster. We maybe can get Foster on a one year deal if he's thinking of retiring and have him help train our foreign big (then keep Foster around in the organization, he's awesome!) So go into next year well under the cap with Posey's expiring to cover's Hibbert's extension. Also, draft a pg in the draft this year to cover the loss of AJ next year and cause I think the is more pg depth than any other position this year.


That's not a bad idea. In fact, that's a great idea because I forgot about the great Stanko! All signs are pointed to the Pacers bringing him over. The Pacers will have 2 legit centers over 7-feet tall!


<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0O4LyXGdKrI?hd=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/5497209618_271ddfc17d_z.jpg

graphic-er
04-13-2011, 10:06 AM
Tyler has been upgraded from "Shouldn't be a starter" to "He won't get any better offensively"? Interesting.

I'm just saying the guy is going to get his shot blocked on a regular basis down low for the rest of his career. Thats not something you build around as your starting PF. I mean what good is all the hustle downlow to get that offensive rebound only to get it blocked on the way back up for the put back? I remember a game this year where he got 3-4 offensive rebounds on one possession and get blocked 3 time in a row and finally made the forth try. So if you can turn him into Josh Smith, I'd go for it.

Rogco
04-13-2011, 11:23 AM
I'm just saying the guy is going to get his shot blocked on a regular basis down low for the rest of his career. Thats not something you build around as your starting PF. I mean what good is all the hustle downlow to get that offensive rebound only to get it blocked on the way back up for the put back? .

What are you basing this on? According to Hoopdata, four Pacers get their shots blocked more often than Tyler. Those would be Paul George, Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and Josh McRoberts. Does that mean we can't build around any of these guys, especially Hibbert and Granger as they have more experience than Tyler and thus won't grow as much?

http://www.hoopdata.com/scoringstats.aspx?team=IND&type=tot&posi=%25&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=20

graphic-er
04-13-2011, 11:35 AM
What are you basing this on? According to Hoopdata, four Pacers get their shots blocked more often than Tyler. Those would be Paul George, Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and Josh McRoberts. Does that mean we can't build around any of these guys, especially Hibbert and Granger as they have more experience than Tyler and thus won't grow as much?

http://www.hoopdata.com/scoringstats.aspx?team=IND&type=tot&posi=%25&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=20

Never mind the fact that he takes most of his shots now from just behind the free throw line or baseline jumper. The ball inexplicably finds him inside he gets blocked more often that not.

CableKC
04-13-2011, 11:53 AM
That's not a bad idea. In fact, that's a great idea because I forgot about the great Stanko! All signs are pointed to the Pacers bringing him over. The Pacers will have 2 legit centers over 7-feet tall!
Although I too would love to bring over Stanko or Lorbek....what "signs" ( other then speculation ) do you have that indicate that the Pacers will bring him over?

Rogco
04-13-2011, 12:54 PM
Never mind the fact that he takes most of his shots now from just behind the free throw line or baseline jumper. The ball inexplicably finds him inside he gets blocked more often that not.

I'm still not seeing it. Once again, statistically he takes 29.1% of his shots at the rim, much greater than Danny Granger who only takes 23.9% at the rim, yet Granger gets blocked 0.9% more often (which is a lot). Further, take into account Tyler's team leading free throw rate (free throws attempted per field goals attempted) and second in the team shooting percentage and it indicates that not only does he get blocked less often than you seem to think, but he's also turning the inside possessions into fouls and points. That or he hits all his mid range jumpers and gets fouled at the same time, but that seems incredibly unlikely.

http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=IND&type=pg&posi=%&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=20

naptownmenace
04-13-2011, 02:37 PM
Although I too would love to bring over Stanko or Lorbek....what "signs" ( other then speculation ) do you have that indicate that the Pacers will bring him over?

There was the article by Conrad Brunner on Pacers.com this past preseason about how much Stanko has progressed and then there was a follow up article in January stating that Stanko was having a "Breakout year".

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/blog_brunner.html

There was an article just last week stating that the Pacers are thinking about signing him.
http://www.iamagm.com/news/2011/04/06/pacers.thinking.about.signing.stanko.barac.drafted .2007

Those are pretty good signs considering the Pacers already own his draft rights.




"You never know what's going to happen," says the Croatian, who is "happy" in Vitoria.

Barac has an opt-out clause every summer to play in the NBA if he pays an amount close to $1.5 million.

Larry Staverman
04-13-2011, 06:43 PM
If the new CBA works the same as the present CBA, we absolutely CANNOT sign the FA first then re-sign Hibbert. Under the present CBA, if you want the FA from another team as well as your own FA, your own FA must be signed first, then whatever cap space is left can be used to sign the FA from the other team.

The point that "Larry Staverman" makes is an important one. We can only hope we are not put in a position that we would need to pay Hibbert as much as 10M per season to retain him. It also provides a very good reason for obtaining players that we need either this summer or by the trade deadline next season, especially if we might be looking to obtain more than one higher-priced player.


Also, with so many rookie contracts of our young core players coming up in future years you have to look down the road at who you want to keep and how much is the franchise willing to or able to spend. If you max out in '11 or '12 with free agents signed to 4 or 5 year deals you may not be able to sign a young asset that blossoms into a key player.

troyc11a
04-14-2011, 09:45 AM
The Pacers do not need another small PF like Josh Smith. They need a guy who can play PF/C to shorten the rotation and keep quality players on the court. If we get Smith, we then have to spend more money on a quality, defensive minded back-up for Hibbert. Only makes sense to try and do both with the same person. Trades seem like the best scenerio. How about a guy like Varejeo from Cleveland? He has a mean streak and can play both positions. I heard he might be available.