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Peck
04-10-2011, 02:49 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20110410/SPORTS04/104100366/1062/SPORTS04/It-s-too-early-decide-keeping-Vogel

Here's my thought about Indiana Pacers interim coach Frank Vogel, and it's one I shared with team president Larry Bird before Friday night's victory over the Atlanta Hawks at Conseco Fieldhouse.

Vogel hasn't won the job, but he hasn't lost it, either.

Bird nodded.

"That's fair,'' he said before the Pacers moved to 20-16 under Vogel after being 17-27 under Jim O'Brien. "Whatever happens, he's going to get the first interview, and he's going to get the last interview. I've been very pleased with how he's handled a very difficult situation.''

Somewhere in the columnist's handbook, it's written that I'm supposed to tell the readership whether Vogel should be retained or told, "Thanks for the good work, now pack your bags.''

I'm not ready to make that judgment.

And I'm not sure Bird is ready to make the call yet, either.

Shoot, Bird isn't sure if he's coming back next year. So there are some moving parts here on the Vogel front:

First, Bird's status.

By now, he has earned the right to make his own call here. There have been hiccups (Shawne Williams?), but big picture, he has done what he said he was going to do: rebuild in a slow, disciplined way and add young pieces along the way.

I know, just 38 of 432 playoff teams since 1984 have reached the postseason with a sub-.500 record, and if Charlotte and Milwaukee had the seasons most people expected, the Pacers would be in lottery land. They've won only six games against teams that have qualified for the playoffs during this soft stretch under Vogel, and if they were in the West, they would be tied for 11th place.

But they're in the playoffs.

Good for them. Mission accomplished.

"We don't get a trophy, and I never thought I'd be happy as hell to get an eighth seed in the playoffs,'' Bird said. "But I am, especially for these young players.''

Bird said Friday, if the Pacers had not made the playoffs, he likely would have walked away.

Now, having made the playoffs, that decision is a bit more difficult. The basketball man inside him would love to take advantage of the team's favorable financial position he has helped forge through several difficult years. But there are family and personal issues in play.

"My wife's been in this for 30 years now,'' Bird said. "She's never told me she wants me to quit what I'm doing, but twice this year after really tough losses, she's asked me, 'Larry, why are you doing this?' She's never asked me that before.''

Whatever Bird chooses to do, he needs to do it expeditiously. The Pacers are heading into one of the most important and uncertain summers in their history, and the possible lockout complicates everything. If Bird is out, his replacement needs to get to work quickly on free agency, trades and deciding on a coach.

It only makes sense that if Bird stays, Vogel's retention chances are far greater.

Second, how does Vogel fare in the playoffs?

Look, they're not going to beat the top-seeded Chicago Bulls in a seven-game series. Most Pacers fans would be thrilled if Indiana could be competitive every night and maybe win a home playoff game.

But let's see what Vogel does in the postseason, when coaching and making adjustments are paramount. He can help his cause, and if his players truly want him back, they can help Vogel's cause here, too. If they get swept and blown out, retaining Vogel will be a hard sell.

However the first round plays out, the playoff appearance is a very good thing for a young team.

"Our young guys have no clue what they're getting themselves into, and we're playing one of the hottest teams (the Bulls) out there,'' Bird said. "But what an experience. I never thought it was like that. In 1980, I couldn't believe the atmosphere, the intensity of the playoffs, every possession. I went home that summer and said, 'You've got to get better.' "

Whatever happens with Vogel, whether he's retained next year or pushed aside for a bigger, more experienced name, he will always have this playoff chase on his resume.

And that's no small thing.

"This isn't about me,'' Vogel said Friday. "This is about our young players getting a taste of the playoffs. I'm happy for them.''

Bottom line is, Vogel took a reeling team and delivered on a promise to reach the postseason. In a short time, he changed the team's mind-set and he changed its style. Without the benefit of an offseason and a training camp, he altered the way the team played offense, veering away from the bombs-away style of O'Brien and installing a more physical brand of basketball.

More, though, he made this fragile young team feel good about itself.

Now, could he earn/demand its respect over the long term? Does he have the tough-guy chops to get in people's faces -- like Lance Stephenson, who was demoted to the fourth spot at point guard on the team's depth chart Saturday and needs to be put on the next train out of town? How much of this recent success was the result of the soft schedule and the fact the players were just so thrilled to be out from under O'Brien's thumb?

Vogel may not get the full-time job -- again, it's too soon to make that call -- but he has earned the right to sit in those interviews and be taken very, very seriously

HoopMoney
04-10-2011, 04:46 AM
Frank Vogel is the next Jerry Sloan

Bob Kravitz may not be ready to make the judgment call on whether or not coach Frank Vogel should be kept next year but I am. The answer is a resounding YES! This guy has been a breath of fresh air since his first press conference. I love that he has put the 'smashmouth' label on this team. His confidence, positive attitude and hard work has rubbed off on this team and he should be given the chance to lead it into the future. His fundamental principles is exactly what Indiana appreciates in it's basketball.

After his first eight games of the season he looked like a coach of the year candidate. The next 13 games was a struggle. That was the transition period. After the new coach spark wore off, he had to change the players old habits and give them a new foundation to build on. Now that the regular season is winding down and we are in the playoffs, this team has turned the corner. We are building momentum and the novice fans are beginning to recognize.

Frank Vogel has a better chance of being here next year than Larry Bird. Larry Legend has kept his promise with the three year plan. We are in the playoffs and the future looks bright. This is the perfect time for him to step down. His wife's 30 years of patience is wearing thin. Do you think he would take significant pay cut from his 6 million dollar annual salary?

The Indiana head front office job would be any general manager's dream. You have a young playoff team with lots of cap space. What more could you ask for? That is the kind of position that an insightful individual could turn into gold. You would have to be a total bonehead to mess this up.

I would love for our Hoosier Legend to come back next year. He's the one person that the players are intimidated by.

The head coaching position is a lock for many years to come. It would be nice if he could get some veteran assistants to help. It's the head front office job that could make or break the future of this franchise. Go Pacers!

Fellow Area 55ers & PTOers, HoopMoney droppin knowledge. Oww!

Major Cold
04-10-2011, 09:00 AM
Good piece by Kravitz, even if it is a familiar tone. No matter what Vogel is getting consideration. I want his player management to be evaluated with such a young group to raise up. Can he bring in an experienced staff?

If Bird, Simon, Morway, new guy think he can do it, I will not be upset. But for me nothing is a RESOUNDING YES.

smj887
04-10-2011, 10:16 AM
I wouldn't mind keeping Vogel at all, but part of me wonders what an experienced coach could do. I mean, Vogel's basically just told the team to go out and play basketball as far as I can tell. And his winning percentage extrapolates to 45 wins over a full season, and that's even with the early March implosion. What happens when an experienced coach comes in and gives the team a boost? Am I the only one who thinks they can flirt with at least 50 games next year if all of the pieces fall where they should?

ksuttonjr76
04-10-2011, 11:00 AM
The team is in a comfortable position going into the offseason. Personally, I would prefer Bird to stay in office to watch the fruits of his labor ripe, but family does come first. As for Vogel, I would love for him to have the opportunity to coach the team for a full season, but I'm not beyond flirting with a bigger name coach.

pacers74
04-10-2011, 11:09 AM
I wouldn't mind keeping Vogel at all, but part of me wonders what an experienced coach could do. I mean, Vogel's basically just told the team to go out and play basketball as far as I can tell. And his winning percentage extrapolates to 45 wins over a full season, and that's even with the early March implosion. What happens when an experienced coach comes in and gives the team a boost? Am I the only one who thinks they can flirt with at least 50 games next year if all of the pieces fall where they should?

50 wins next year might be a little high. I will be happy just to break over the .500 mark. I bet there are a lot of coaches who just tell their team to go out and play basketball, Erik Spoelstra comes to mind.

We need to take a long look at who is available to coach this team next year, but please don't over look Vogel he has been on an assistant in the NBA for a long time and he is still young.

beast23
04-10-2011, 11:31 AM
The team is in a comfortable position going into the offseason. Personally, I would prefer Bird to stay in office to watch the fruits of his labor ripe, but family does come first. As for Vogel, I would love for him to have the opportunity to coach the team for a full season, but I'm not beyond flirting with a bigger name coach.Sitting here today, I believe that the FAR more significant issue is whether Bird stays for another year.

Bird is the man who has watched this team through all of its triumphs and failures, both from a team perspective, a coaching perspective and more importantly, from an individual personnel perspective.

No one, and I mean no one, knows the personnel of this team and how they fit together better than Bird. He knows straight off the top of his head the various combinations of players to acquire that will result in the best possible team performance next season. For example, he knows that if he acquires "player A" at PF for next season, then that acquisition would lead to him going down a particular path of attempting to acquire a specific player or type of player for SG. If "player A" is not available, then he moves to his next combination of desirable players.

If the Pacers replace Bird after this season, I believe they risk not going after the most suitable players that fill needs. Simple as that. Lose Bird, and there is a decent chance that the team ends up misusing some of its cap room.

Pacerized
04-10-2011, 11:36 AM
If Larry thinks that Vogel will get the first and last interview, he must plan on being part of that interview process. I hope I'm reading into this right in thinking that Bird will return to finish what he's started.
Vogel on the other hand would have to lead this team to an upset over the Bulls for me to be completely sold on his return. I just want us to get the best coach possible for our young team and the new talent we'll be bringing in this offseason. Vogel might be the answer but we're not entering a rebuilding phase, we're coming out of one. I think a coach like Jerry Sloan would be a better fit if he wants to coach again. If we retain Vogel I hope it's on no more then a 2 year contract. Let him prove himself over a full season before extending him any longer.

beast23
04-10-2011, 11:47 AM
I wouldn't mind keeping Vogel at all, but part of me wonders what an experienced coach could do. I mean, Vogel's basically just told the team to go out and play basketball as far as I can tell. And his winning percentage extrapolates to 45 wins over a full season, and that's even with the early March implosion. What happens when an experienced coach comes in and gives the team a boost? Am I the only one who thinks they can flirt with at least 50 games next year if all of the pieces fall where they should?
I think you diminish what Vogel has accomplished. He didn't just throw players out on the floor with the instruction to play, he completely changed their offensive system and culture... without the benefit of a training camp and preseason.

I think we could have had Phil Jackson or any HOF coach be at the helm of this team for this season, and the team would not have more than 44-45 wins. If Vogel had been in charge of the team the entire season after making the same change in system and culture during the preseason, I believe he could have accomplished a similar result. A specific coach can win you a few extra games, but the vast majority of the accomplishment will be dictated by your level of talent and in our case, "where they are" in their development.

With stability in the coaching and in the roles/responsibilities of the players, after acquiring FAs or players through trades this summer, I really look for the Pacers to be north of 50 wins next season... despite who is at the helm. As long as Bird is here to guide the content of the roster going into next season.

Brad8888
04-10-2011, 12:04 PM
One of Kravitz' best efforts in my opinion.

In my opinion, it would be a real shame for Bird to go, especially after all he has gone through.

Yes, it has been his job to go through these things, but the way everything played out was difficult to foresee for the most part, and the aftermath has been more devestating to the franchise than many would have thought going in.

It has to have been soul crushing for Bird at times, and he has to have privately felt burnt out in a situation where it probably seemed like there was no such thing as a good choice to be made to change things in any positive way, especially without the luxury of being in a large market with a free spending owner.

Out of respect for what Bird has tried to do and a desire to see him rewarded for his dedication through some really tough times, I hope he has the energy to keep going for a while longer. He deserves to feel the release that achieving a successful conclusion to the post Brawl era would bring to him with feeling the satisfaction of a job well done.

If he, after consulting with his family, doesn't feel it is a good idea to keep going, I can also respect that decision. We are all only given so much time in this life, and everyone needs to do what they can to maximize their and their family's happiness, health, and security while they still have the opportunity to enjoy it.

Tom White
04-10-2011, 12:12 PM
I think a coach like Jerry Sloan would be a better fit if he wants to coach again. If we retain Vogel I hope it's on no more then a 2 year contract. Let him prove himself over a full season before extending him any longer.

Let's step outside the box for a moment.

Here is something that has been rolling around in my head for awhile. What if Sloan was interested in coaching again, but only wanted to coach for a couple more years, and then retire?

What would Bird, Sloan and Vogel think about a situation where Sloan comes in to coach the team for a couple of years with Vogel as his lead assistant AND head coach in waiting?

It would give Vogel more time to learn from one of the best the league has seen, and still secure his future. It would give the team the experienced, disciplined, put up with no nonsense voice that a young group needs, while assuring them that a coach they seem to like quite well will be taking over one day.

We've seen this sort of thing work well at the college level (Matt Painter comes to mind). Would it work at this level?

Any thoughts?

ThA HoyA
04-10-2011, 12:34 PM
"Our young guys have no clue what they're getting themselves into, and we're playing one of the hottest teams (the Bulls) out there,'' Bird said. "But what an experience. I never thought it was like that. In 1980, I couldn't believe the atmosphere, the intensity of the playoffs, every possession. I went home that summer and said, 'You've got to get better.' "


This is the only reason I have cared about getting that eight seed even if we get swept. Hopefully will push guys to work harder and get better and take this game more seriously to want to return to the playoffs.

Justin Tyme
04-10-2011, 12:39 PM
Sitting here today, I believe that the FAR more significant issue is whether Bird stays for another year.

Bird is the man who has watched this team through all of its triumphs and failures, both from a team perspective, a coaching perspective and more importantly, from an individual personnel perspective.

No one, and I mean no one, knows the personnel of this team and how they fit together better than Bird. He knows straight off the top of his head the various combinations of players to acquire that will result in the best possible team performance next season. For example, he knows that if he acquires "player A" at PF for next season, then that acquisition would lead to him going down a particular path of attempting to acquire a specific player or type of player for SG. If "player A" is not available, then he moves to his next combination of desirable players.

If the Pacers replace Bird after this season, I believe they risk not going after the most suitable players that fill needs. Simple as that. Lose Bird, and there is a decent chance that the team ends up misusing some of its cap room.


Nice read, but you and I have a major difference of opinion about Bird's ability to evaluate players. You make him out to be a guru of evaluation of players. Oh, I can see Bird saying player X can do these things, but I don't see Bird being able to look at the fabric and pattern his wife bought and envision how it all goes together. Same with putting certain players together to get a certain result he wants as you said. I don't feel Bird has the talent to do it.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how did Bird ever think Stephenson was PG material? He missed on Cabbages being this great PG too. How did he miss Cabbages couldn't even bring the ball up the court while overseas scouting? What did Bird see in Maceo overseas that he thought would translate into the NBA game? KRush and Diener as these great 3 pt shooters that would mesh well with the existing players he had. He brought in numerous players that didn't fit Jimmy's system such as TJ. We'll just have to agree to disagree on Bird's ability to evaluate players thus assemble a team of players who can intergrate their talents with each other to become a real chanpionship contender.

Brad8888
04-10-2011, 12:45 PM
Let's step outside the box for a moment.

Here is something that has been rolling around in my head for awhile. What if Sloan was interested in coaching again, but only wanted to coach for a couple more years, and then retire?

What would Bird, Sloan and Vogel think about a situation where Sloan comes in to coach the team for a couple of years with Vogel as his lead assistant AND head coach in waiting?

It would give Vogel more time to learn from one of the best the league has seen, and still secure his future. It would give the team the experienced, disciplined, put up with no nonsense voice that a young group needs, while assuring them that a coach they seem to like quite well will be taking over one day.

We've seen this sort of thing work well at the college level (Matt Painter comes to mind). Would it work at this level?

Any thoughts?

Interesting concept, and I have decidedly mixed feeling on this.

That would ensure that knuckleheads would be less likely to gain traction in the future, would teach Vogel how to be tougher, and would further instill the culture of "smashmouth" basketball in the playing style of the Pacers going forward, and would gain casual fan interest in the team due to having such a respected coaching name on the sidelines again.

That said, and despite being a fan of Sloan and what he has accomplished, I am not sure that Sloan would necessarily have the right combination of energy and drive to both teach Vogel and lead the team, especially if there is a long lockout. I am just afraid that Father Time might be catching up to him, and if there is a long lockout that it might be difficult for him to shake the rust off of his coaching.

I guess my heart says "Yes, Please!", while my mind has doubts...

wintermute
04-10-2011, 01:02 PM
Let's step outside the box for a moment.

Here is something that has been rolling around in my head for awhile. What if Sloan was interested in coaching again, but only wanted to coach for a couple more years, and then retire?

What would Bird, Sloan and Vogel think about a situation where Sloan comes in to coach the team for a couple of years with Vogel as his lead assistant AND head coach in waiting?

It would give Vogel more time to learn from one of the best the league has seen, and still secure his future. It would give the team the experienced, disciplined, put up with no nonsense voice that a young group needs, while assuring them that a coach they seem to like quite well will be taking over one day.

We've seen this sort of thing work well at the college level (Matt Painter comes to mind). Would it work at this level?

Any thoughts?

Would work great for the Pacers, having a Hall of Fame coach and a popular heir apparent on staff.

The question is, would Jerry Sloan go for it? You don't hire a HoF coach and tell him who his lead assistant is going to be. If he's willing, then that's great. But what if he wants someone else, say his long time assistant Phil Johnson, in that role?

Even Vogel might not be so willing. There will a number of other head coach openings and depending on how well the team does in the playoffs, he may be a candidate for other jobs. Ok, so I don't think that's as likely.

Sounds like it's unlikely enough that any team could get Sloan to unretire. Getting something like this arranged would be even more difficult.

Jose Slaughter
04-10-2011, 02:47 PM
I always thought at the highest level of basketball there needs to be the highest level of committment. If you're not 100% committed to your game or to the job (BIRD) then you need to find something else to do.

If you're sitting on the fence, ya might as well hang 'em up & let someone with the fire you use to have come in & get it done.

I would love to have Bird back to reap what he has sown but all the suddle signs are there that this will be his final draft.

Sollozzo
04-10-2011, 02:57 PM
Nice read, but you and I have a major difference of opinion about Bird's ability to evaluate players. You make him out to be a guru of evaluation of players. Oh, I can see Bird saying player X can do these things, but I don't see Bird being able to look at the fabric and pattern his wife bought and envision how it all goes together. Same with putting certain players together to get a certain result he wants as you said. I don't feel Bird has the talent to do it.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how did Bird ever think Stephenson was PG material? He missed on Cabbages being this great PG too. How did he miss Cabbages couldn't even bring the ball up the court while overseas scouting? What did Bird see in Maceo overseas that he thought would translate into the NBA game? KRush and Diener as these great 3 pt shooters that would mesh well with the existing players he had. He brought in numerous players that didn't fit Jimmy's system such as TJ. We'll just have to agree to disagree on Bird's ability to evaluate players thus assemble a team of players who can intergrate their talents with each other to become a real chanpionship contender.


Everyone's going to miss here and there. Let's not forget that Walsh drafted George McCloud over Tim Hardaway. If you're a GM long enough, you're going to have some bad moments.

Don't forget that a lot of NBA teams were interested in Cabbage. We certainly weren't the only ones who were trying to get him.

Shawne Williams was a bust, and it certainly stings to have picked him over Rondo, but everyone else taken after Williams aside from Rajon were crap for the most part: Olesksi Pecherov, Quincy Douby, Renaldo Balkman, Rondo, Marcus Williams, Josh Boone, Kyle Lowry, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar, Sergio Rodriguez, Maurice Ager, Mardy Collins, Joel Freeland - those were the guys drafted after Williams. You obviously have Rondo and then you have Lowry, Brown, and Farmar who are decent, but most of those guys were complete crap.

We only got TJ because he was part of the deal to get JO out of here. It's not TJ that matters in that deal, it's Roy. I think everyone here can agree that Bird got about the best deal possible for JO.

KRush? Diener? Everyone has scrubs like that to balance out their roster. I don't care too much about them. Players like that come and go.

Overall, Bird has built a pretty solid little basketball team given what he's had to work with. He got a great deal for JO which gave us a center with quite a bit of potential. He turned Troy Murphy into Darren Collison. He's made some decent to really good draft picks in Rush, Hansbrough, and George. He did all of this without not having much at all to work with since taking over in 08. Once we got rid of JO, we virtually had no assets (aside from guys like Granger and Hibbert who we actually wanted to keep) until contracts like Murphy/Dun/Ford expired. He did a helluva good job with what he did with Murphy and I want to see what he can do with the cap space. Since Bird took over in 08, he's played both of his assets (JO and Murph contract) pretty damn well.

makaveli
04-11-2011, 10:26 AM
Nice read, but you and I have a major difference of opinion about Bird's ability to evaluate players. You make him out to be a guru of evaluation of players. Oh, I can see Bird saying player X can do these things, but I don't see Bird being able to look at the fabric and pattern his wife bought and envision how it all goes together. Same with putting certain players together to get a certain result he wants as you said. I don't feel Bird has the talent to do it.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how did Bird ever think Stephenson was PG material? He missed on Cabbages being this great PG too. How did he miss Cabbages couldn't even bring the ball up the court while overseas scouting? What did Bird see in Maceo overseas that he thought would translate into the NBA game? KRush and Diener as these great 3 pt shooters that would mesh well with the existing players he had. He brought in numerous players that didn't fit Jimmy's system such as TJ. We'll just have to agree to disagree on Bird's ability to evaluate players thus assemble a team of players who can intergrate their talents with each other to become a real chanpionship contender.


I agree with Solozzo....ALL great GM's strike out occasionally, but ALL great ones at least swing for the fences. Even the great Bill Polian, widely regarded as one of the best of his generation, drafts a Tony Ugoh on occasion. There are no sure things in sports. That is the beauty of it. The great GM's are excellent talent evaluators... the problem they run into is good players aren't made of talent alone. There are so many varibles....work ethic, maturity, injuries, toughness, desire, etc etc.... Most of those are outed with due diligence but then all of a sudden a kid with nothing, who's driven to be the best out of necessity, is flush with cash and the desire wanes, the toughness wanes, the party begins and never ends, the posse grows, and on and on. All that being said, I believe Larry has done a fine job assembling a "team" and hitting more than he misses (which is really how all GM's are truly judged when it's all said and done) and demonstrating an enviable amount of patience in the face of a frustrated fan base in a win now league. A patience which has this franchise on the brink of truly being "back" for the first time in many years. The only true "miss" that Larry is at fault for is not moving O'brien much sooner. In that instance, Larry's patience was detrimental to the team. As far as players go, though, it's nothing but an educated crap-shoot, and I say Larry is up on the house.

NuffSaid
04-11-2011, 12:19 PM
With a few minor roster tweaks, I think that Pacers can be alot better under vogel. IMO, the only way Vogel doesn't return is if:

1) a better, more experienced coach comes in; or,

2) the players don't want him back.

Still, I think even if management does find a better, more experienced coach the players will insist that Vogel stay on. Hell, if Mike Brown wanted to get back to coaching I'd take him as an assistant and retain Vogel as head coach since both clearly are or have been well respected by the players in the past.

CableKC
04-11-2011, 12:27 PM
I want a Coach that emphasizes defense....if Mike Brown is a Coach that emphasizes defense.......then I'm okay with picking him over Vogel.

I have no idea about how Mike Brown would run a Lebron-less offense.....but when Vogel came in...we had no clue how he'd run his offense and it seems to have worked out well.

Unclebuck
04-11-2011, 01:54 PM
I bet there are a lot of coaches who just tell their team to go out and play basketball, Erik Spoelstra comes to mind.



I suppose I should ask what you mean by a coach just telling his team, "to go out a play basketball" But if you mean what I think you mean, No coach does that, and Spoelstra who is very similar to Pat Riley is on the other far end of the spectrum. I think it is obvious when you watch the heat play defense. Defense doesn't happen by accident, it takes great and consistant coaching

Day-V
04-13-2011, 12:55 PM
Semi-bump. We now know how Roy feels. Although I think we knew how he felt already.


http://twitter.com/#!/Hoya2aPacer/status/58209650616696832

duke dynamite
04-13-2011, 12:57 PM
Semi-bump. We now know how Roy feels. Although I think we knew how he felt already.


http://twitter.com/#!/Hoya2aPacer/status/58209650616696832
Outside of Vogel, Roy has only had one coach during his short career so far. I hope he doesn't get all JO and ask to be traded if they don't retain Frank.

BPump33
04-13-2011, 12:59 PM
Outside of Vogel, Roy has only had one coach during his short career so far. I hope he doesn't get all JO and ask to be traded if they don't retain Frank.

I just hope they retain Frank.

Day-V
04-13-2011, 01:04 PM
I just hope they retain Frank.

Same.

Jared Sullinger
04-13-2011, 01:16 PM
I think Vogel's earned at least a one-year extension.

Naptown_Seth
04-13-2011, 01:47 PM
Nice read, but you and I have a major difference of opinion about Bird's ability to evaluate players. You make him out to be a guru of evaluation of players. Oh, I can see Bird saying player X can do these things, but I don't see Bird being able to look at the fabric and pattern his wife bought and envision how it all goes together. Same with putting certain players together to get a certain result he wants as you said. I don't feel Bird has the talent to do it.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how did Bird ever think Stephenson was PG material? He missed on Cabbages being this great PG too. How did he miss Cabbages couldn't even bring the ball up the court while overseas scouting? What did Bird see in Maceo overseas that he thought would translate into the NBA game? KRush and Diener as these great 3 pt shooters that would mesh well with the existing players he had. He brought in numerous players that didn't fit Jimmy's system such as TJ. We'll just have to agree to disagree on Bird's ability to evaluate players thus assemble a team of players who can intergrate their talents with each other to become a real chanpionship contender.
Exactly. And Bird also signed JOB's extension, which ironically led to this article discussing whether Bird will stay and if he'll keep Vogel.

Um, shouldn't we be asking if Bird will keep JOB? That was the plan all this time. It took ticket sales, losing and probably Herb Simon to get JOB moved out of here.


Bird has made good calls and terrible calls and this means he is adequate but also potentially replaceable.

Vogel's #1 asset was getting the F out of the way with the rotation and development and going to a style that matched the team's talent much better.

Vogel hasn't had the time to improve the team via coaching strategy. He improved the team by not being a total d-bag to his kids and by playing people that were more talented anyway.

Like Bird this means SO FAR he's adequate but potentially replaceable.


How anyone sees Sloan or Jackson out of half a season from Vogel with his team getting blown out in MANY games is beyond me. Even if he is at that level, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE?

I have evidence he might stink as a coach - see OKC, Dallas, Houston, see Lance issue, see slow starts, see inability to find scoring plays late in games.

I'm not saying he does stink, just that there are potential signs.

But I read on here and apparently if you step outside into drops of rain it's a sure sign it's going to be a sunny day. Yeesh. It might not rain, but I know which way my bet is hedging till I see something change.



BOB HILL once improved the team when he came in mid-season, and he had a WINNING RECORD once he took over. And now I've got to read guys saying essentially "Why get Larry Brown when you can have Bob Hill already." There is plenty of history on this kind of thing.

You can replace Vogel for the same reason you swapped Hill for Brown or Isiah for Rick.

BPump33
04-13-2011, 01:50 PM
Exactly. And Bird also signed JOB's extension, which ironically led to this article discussing whether Bird will stay and if he'll keep Vogel.

Um, shouldn't we be asking if Bird will keep JOB? That was the plan all this time.


Bird has made good calls and terrible calls and this means he is adequate but also potentially replaceable.

Vogel's #1 asset was getting the F out of the way with the rotation and development and going to a style that matched the team's talent much better.

Vogel hasn't had the time to improve the team via coaching strategy. He improved the team by not being a total d-bag to his kids and by playing people that were more talented anyway.

Like Bird this means SO FAR he's adequate but potentially replaceable.


How anyone sees Sloan or Jackson out of half a season from Vogel with his team getting blown out in MANY games is beyond me. Even if he is at that level, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE?

I have evidence he might stink as a coach - see OKC, Dallas, Houston, see Lance issue, see slow starts, see inability to find scoring plays late in games.

I'm not saying he does stink, just that there are potential signs.

But I read on here and apparently if you step outside into drops of rain it's a sure sign it's going to be a sunny day. Yeesh. It might not rain, but I know which way my bet is hedging till I see something change.

I understand why people wouldn't want Vogel to be retained, but my personal opinion is that I want him back. I'm SURE you can write paragraphs and paragraphs about how replaceable he is, but from my personal experience with him and from how the players have reacted to him, I want him back. It doesn't make either one of us right, just different opinions. Only time will tell.

BillS
04-13-2011, 01:59 PM
Um, shouldn't we be asking if Bird will keep JOB? That was the plan all this time. It took ticket sales, losing and probably Herb Simon to get JOB moved out of here.

OK, this is pure speculation yet you say it like it was a definite. Where did Bird or anyone credible ever say Bird was going to re-sign JOB to a new contract at the end of this year if he had no pressure?

Yes, I know that's what people were afraid of, and that means (around here) that ol' Stupid Head Bird would definitely do it, yup yup yup yup yup, but all the evidence was pointing to JOB being gone at the end of the season unless some miracle had happened in the post-season.

troyc11a
04-13-2011, 02:41 PM
I understand why people wouldn't want Vogel to be retained, but my personal opinion is that I want him back. I'm SURE you can write paragraphs and paragraphs about how replaceable he is, but from my personal experience with him and from how the players have reacted to him, I want him back. It doesn't make either one of us right, just different opinions. Only time will tell.

I honestly dont see anyone out there who is attractive to replace Vogel. If JVG was so good why has he been in the booth for the past few years (and what did he do in Houston with all that talent?). Mike Brown is dull and has not proven anything either. He had Lebron and abunch of guys who played defense and gave Lebron the ball - real intelligent there! Sloan, what has he ever won? Looks like the game as well as the modern NBA athlete has passed him by.
I like Vogel and have felt for years that teams should give co-ordinators chances rather than hiring a retread who got fired for not producing at his last place.