PDA

View Full Version : Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound



RoboHicks
04-07-2011, 03:00 AM
Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound
Written by Peck

Link (http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/?p=464)

This is going to be a short Odd Thoughts but there is just no way I could not write something on the night that our beloved Indiana Pacers earned a trip back to the NBA playoffs.

Thatís right, EARNED, a trip to the NBA playoffs. Under the rules as they exist, with the standards that are set and the teams that are playing the Pacers EARNED this spot.

What makes me even happier is that we won a game to get in. Yes the Bobcats lost to officially put us over the top but more importantly to me anyway is that we took care of business on our end and won our game and won it in a very convincing way.

Yes I will admit the Wizards were pretty much on cruise control after we took over the lead early on, but we still could have coughed up the lead at many different points in the game but we did not.

Side note: How Flip Saunders has a head coaching job in the NBA has always been a mystery to me.

Anyway Iím not going to review the game because in all honesty it was just a case of a team beating another team mercilessly. Happily our team was on the right end of this.

But I want to take kind of an overview of some things I think have been important in getting us here and hopefully important moving forward.

Mike Dunleavy becoming the 6th man:

Obviously this is controversial because Mike is one of those players you either hate or love and there are very few of us who take the middle ground with him. I just think he makes the second unit a much more fluid and properly functioning unit. Prior to him returning our second unit offense consisted of A.J. Price & Dahntay Jones attempting to go one on one with an occasional Josh Dunk or Brandon three for good measure. Mike changes all of that, he not only scores himself but his off the ball movement and passing ability changes the entire complexion of the second unit and makes that unit a much or potent scoring threat. His defense is good enough to be on this unit and in this position he does not have to defend the Wadeís or Allenís of the world. Iím also happy that Mike gets to go to the playoffs for the first time in his career still being a contributor and vital piece of the club. Unlike Troy Murphy who bought his way into the playoffs and is really not part of any regular rotation.

Darren Collison hitting his shots:

But more importantly starting to hit his team mates for some easy baskets and increasing his overall assist total upward. Yea he had a few to many turnovers in this game but overall he has been getting a little better about taking care of the ball. He is always going to be a scoring point guard, thatís just what he is, but as long as he looks for other players first thatís all we really can ask from him. I still worry about his defense and I donít look forward to seeing Derrick Rose run past him on the way to the rim but as long as he tries to keep him in front of him and helps run the offense on the other end I think he will be ok.

Frank Vogel as the head coach:

**Fair warning right now, if you are sick of reading about Jim OíBrien or are a defender of Jim OíBrien you may want to skip the next paragraph. Iím telling you this now because I donít want to read complaints about ďwhy canít you let it goĒ or anything of that nature. If you want to defend him (well good luck to you) thatís fine but we are going to talk about him & Iím not even going to justify why Iím talking about him. Skip down to the next set of stars to avoid this topic. **

Frank Vogel has gone 19-16 with the exact same roster that Jim OíBrien could only go 17-27 with. Not to mention that Frank has had to deal with a serious injury to a starter (Mikeís thumb) and had to readjust the roster on the fly. He has had no training camp, had very limited practice time and not only does he have no head coaching experience but his assistants all have very limited time as lead assistants either.

I donít care about any excuses about the schedule either prior to or after the coaching change. You play the games the NBA gives you and that is all you can do. Every team has to play the exact same amount of games and while yes certainly there are circumstances that may impact your playing ability overall in an 82 game season it pretty much all works out evenly. Itís kind of like complaining about poor officiating, yes in an isolated case you can get screwed on a call but overall it works out pretty evenly.

But from a personal standpoint I will say this. I like watching this team over 100% more than I ever did at any point in time in the previous 3 Ĺ years. I donít understand a stretch four, but I understand old school smash mouth basketball. I donít understand spreading the floor by taking quick shots early in the shot clock, but I understand taking good shots.

In other words on the offensive end Frank did a 180 with our club and took us away from a perimeter based offense to a team that lives and dies in the paint.

I donít have to argue the merits of this as the results do that for me.

But if Frank did nothing else at all he did this. He believed in our players, he made certain that they knew that he believed in them. He told us all to jump on board for the end ride because it was going to be a special end of the season.

Jim on the other hand told Larry Bird that this team could not make the playoffs. Thatís right he said that this team could not make the playoffs, itís more fun to type that on a night when the team just secured a playoff berth.

I donít know if Frank is the best coach to move forward with. Iíll say this, I wouldnít be offended if that is the way that we chose to go but at the end of the day this is something that we can decide in the off-season.

But I know for damn sure that Jim OíBrien was not a coach we could move forward with and in fact should never have been brought back this year.

So you can either view it as the day Jim OíBrien was fired or the day Frank Vogel was promoted either way works but this was the one day that changed our franchise for this season.

**Ok, Iím done talking about OíBrien now**

I donít know how we are going to end the year. We may decide we need to win and go into the playoffs with some kind of momentum or we may feel the need to rest Foster (which is what we did vs. the Wizards). Either way I guess I can understand, obviously I prefer to win out but I donít want anyone with a lingering nagging injury going into the playoffs.

PlayoffsÖÖ yea that feels good to type that again.

In the past Iíve never been happy just making the playoffs because I always wanted more. But for this team with what we have been through and where we have come from I want to go ahead and say it. I donít want the players, coaches or management to think this. But as a fan Iíll think it and Iíll say it out loud.

2010-11 Indiana Pacers NBA Season is a success

P.S. How fitting is this. On a night that we secure a playoff spot Mark Boyle has announced via twitter that Bobby ďSlickĒ Leonard will return the broadcast booth this Friday and will be here for our playoff run. To say that this is amazing is almost an understatement knowing how grave his initial condition was. I guess the only thing to say to that is Boom Baby!


http://www.remembertheaba.com/TributeMaterial/PlayerMaterial/BobbyLeonard/LeonardKickingClose.jpg (http://www.remembertheaba.com/TributeMaterial/PlayerMaterial/BobbyLeonard/LeonardKickingClose.jpg)

http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png (http://www.addtoany.com/share_save)

McKeyFan
04-07-2011, 08:14 AM
I donít know if Frank is the best coach to move forward with. Iíll say this, I wouldnít be offended if that is the way that we chose to go but at the end of the day this is something that we can decide in the off-season.


:laugh:

You make it sound like PD will decide the next coach.

Anyway, great thoughts all the way around.

Your points about the key, basic, but significant changes made by Vogel are spot on. He made those changes, and the results speak for themselves. Let's not forget that another assistant might have retained a lot of JOB ball. This one didn't.

Which makes you wonder. Did JOB have a host of players AND assistants who didn't believe in his system? (Lester Conner implied the same.) I wonder how Frank and Jim are getting along these days, seeing that Frank has kinda dissed the former system and explicitly made clear that Jim's teams took "bad shots."

I know there is a Vogel thread, but I'll say right here that he has a shot in my mind of getting the job. Some have said he doesn't have enough plays, etc., but he hasn't really had the opportunity to do all that. He may need a summer and training camp to install all that. It may be that he has shown extremely good judgment by keeping things simple during this transition.

I think watching his performance during this playoff series will be important. If we get swept and embarrased, that will lessen my enthusiasm for Frank. If we win two or more, his stock goes even higher.

What the players think about Vogel should also be a big factor. If they consider him a buddy but not so much feared, or at least respected, that needs to be factored in. But if they all tell Bird he has grown into a place of respect, and they all recommend his hiring, that would be hard to discount.

I would not be upset to hear he is the coach next year. Now, if JVG or some other known quantity gets named, that's cool too. But Vogel is a real contender, imo. (But we'll decide that this summer, right Peck?)

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 08:53 AM
Frank Vogel as the head coach:


Frank Vogel has gone 19-16 with the exact same roster that Jim O’Brien could only go 17-27 with.

I don’t care about any excuses about the schedule either prior to or after the coaching change. You play the games the NBA gives you and that is all you can do. Every team has to play the exact same amount of games and while yes certainly there are circumstances that may impact your playing ability overall in an 82 game season it pretty much all works out evenly. It’s kind of like complaining about poor officiating, yes in an isolated case you can get screwed on a call but overall it works out pretty evenly.




I do not want to get into JOB or Frank.

I just want to make a general comment about your general point. You are 100% correct if you are comparing a full season coached by coach A vs a full season coached by coach B in that case the schedules even out.

However what you are saying is incorrect if you are comparing coach A who coached the first 44 games to coach B who coached the final 38 games. Yes one of the things anyone should look at is strength of schedule - especially when there is a large difference.

At the very least strength of schedule should not be out of bounds as a means to compare the results of the two coaches. I know one thing if Vogel had coached the tougher part of the schedule and had gone 19-16 it would be brought up in this forum as a major feather in his cap. I know I would would think more highly of the job Frank did if he was able to go 19-16 during December and January of this season.

McKeyFan
04-07-2011, 08:58 AM
I know one thing if Vogel had coached the tougher part of the schedule and had gone 19-16 it would be brought up in this forum as a major feather in his cap.
Brought up by one or two maybe.

But I think the majority of Vogel supporters (or preferrers) are not obsessing on statistics like the handful of JOB advocates/devils advocates or whatever they are. Vogel fans look at the W/L record and watch the games with common sense. And they see the obvious improvements.

flox
04-07-2011, 09:06 AM
Brought up by one or two maybe.

But I think the majority of Vogel supporters (or preferrers) are not obsessing on statistics like the handful of JOB advocates/devils advocates or whatever they are. Vogel fans look at the W/L record and watch the games with common sense. And they see the obvious improvements.

Common sense? Half the board, and myself especially, don't have that.

Frank Vogel should send Portland and MJ a large thank you basket.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 09:13 AM
Vogel fans look at the W/L record and watch the games with common sense.

Really? Is that what you really mean to say

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 09:15 AM
I long for the day when I come here and I no longer have to read about Jim O'Brien vs. Frank Vogel.

BRushWithDeath
04-07-2011, 09:16 AM
Common sense? Half the board, and myself especially, don't have that.



Agreed in full.


Also, to dismiss the schedule strength entirely is completely misguided. Do I think we are a better team because of how we've changed since the overthrow of the former dictator? Tenfold. But the difference in schedule certainly helps. Kim-Jong-Il'Brien coached 44 games this season. 26 of those were against playoff teams. That is 59%. At season's end Vogel will have coached 38 games. Only 15 will have been against playoff teams. 39%. Is that the sole reason we've been better in at the end of year? Not at all. But it is a contributing factor.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 09:46 AM
Agreed in full.


Also, to dismiss the schedule strength entirely is completely misguided. Do I think we are a better team because of how we've changed since the overthrow of the former dictator? Tenfold. But the difference in schedule certainly helps. Kim-Jong-Il'Brien coached 44 games this season. 26 of those were against playoff teams. That is 59%. At season's end Vogel will have coached 38 games. Only 15 will have been against playoff teams. 39%. Is that the sole reason we've been better in at the end of year? Not at all. But it is a contributing factor.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I wish I had just posted what you did, because I agree with you 100% in what you have posted here. (although maybe I would not use some of the colorful language - but it is entertaining)

The point is the schedule differences are significant. We aren't talking about comparing 52% vs 48% and splitting hairs. 59% vs 38% is significant by any measure.

Kegboy
04-07-2011, 09:48 AM
Jim on the other hand told Larry Bird that this team could not make the playoffs. That’s right he said that this team could not make the playoffs, it’s more fun to type that on a night when the team just secured a playoff berth.

Thank you for reminding people of this Peck. I find it bewildering that people seem to think Jimmy could have done something that he himself said to his boss he simply could not do.

Kid Minneapolis
04-07-2011, 09:48 AM
Jim O'Brien also has years of head coaching experience. Frank Vogel has 38 games.

He was also thrown into the fire with a team that had lost 20 of 28 prior to his "promotion". I think most recent trend is probly the best comparison. 8-20 (.286) vs 18-17 (.514). It's not like Vogel was handed the keys to the Lakers. He had a big hill to climb, and he did it.

The best line by Peck was the memory of Jim declaring this team wasn't talented enough to make the playoffs... followed by Vogel's bold statement when O'Bie was fired that we would make the playoffs, and then we actually make the playoffs.

That is probly the largest message you can send, and one that the O'Bie lovers need to take the blindfolds off to.

Kegboy
04-07-2011, 09:51 AM
I do not want to get into ...

For those who saw my post in the other thread, you can add the above to "I'm not a ..." and "This thread isn't ...".

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 10:03 AM
Jim O'Brien also has years of head coaching experience. Frank Vogel has 38 games.

He was also thrown into the fire with a team that had lost 20 of 28 prior to his "promotion". I think most recent trend is probly the best comparison. 8-20 (.286) vs 18-17 (.514). It's not like Vogel was handed the keys to the Lakers. He had a big hill to climb, and he did it.

.

There is always a honeymoon period no matter who the coach is, and if JOB was hated as much as it appears he was by the players, then the honeymoon period is even a bigger issue . Plus JOB had worn out his welcome as he was in his 4th season - so that was a huge thing working against him.

I don't think taking over this team when Frank did was that difficult - epescially for the first month. I give Frank the most credit for what he did after the 6 game losing streak - but the honeymoon period was the easy part

BillS
04-07-2011, 10:12 AM
Thank you for reminding people of this Peck. I find it bewildering that people seem to think Jimmy could have done something that he himself said to his boss he simply could not do.

Given the number of people ON THIS FORUM who believe that our record is not a shining example of a playoff team, and the idea that if the Bucks or the Bobcats had taken care of their own business all season we would be in 9th place again, that analysis was not somehow ridiculously stupid. It's not like JOB was coaching the Bulls and said they weren't talented enough to be a playoff team.

How would people have reacted if, after Vogel's constant positive view of the team, we lost out (which could have happened) or one of those other teams won out, and we were in that "worst possible spot" again. Would people have accused Frank of not having a realistic view of the team?

Vogel sees the positive side, JOB saw the negative. We were ready to see some positive (and many were tired of the negative) - fine, but it doesn't make the positive suddenly perfectly correct except in a hindsight where the circumstances worked out.

One of the things that really bothers me around here is that any success seems to only be made valid through demonizing someone in the past. Larry Bird can only be a decent GM because Donnie sucked, Vogel is only a good coach because JOB is the worst coach since Naismith fired Fred Xavier Jones for not allowing his forwards to carry a pole to tip the ball out of the peach basket, and the young guys are good because the veterans are irrelevant.

Can't guys be judged in and of themselves without having to get one over on someone else to make it somehow real?

LA_Confidential
04-07-2011, 10:31 AM
It doesn't matter. Either way this team is in the playoffs with 3 tune up games left against playoff bound teams. It is quite possible that Frank will not be our coach next year and for the sake of this board that may be best. No more Frank vs. Jimmy.

Im hoping that our team puts up a good showing in the playoffs and we can some how lure Jerry Sloan onto our bench.

imawhat
04-07-2011, 10:45 AM
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I wish I had just posted what you did, because I agree with you 100% in what you have posted here. (although maybe I would not use some of the colorful language - but it is entertaining)

The point is the schedule differences are significant. We aren't talking about comparing 52% vs 48% and splitting hairs. 59% vs 38% is significant by any measure.

That is fine, but I will counter by saying Jim didn't have a month that sniffed the brutality of our March schedule. That's the worst non-lockout monthly schedule I've ever seen. We played 17 games in 30 days with 6 sets of back-to-backs and 2 three-game road trips. Let that soak in for a minute.

In fact, the Pacers went from being the team with the fewest games played in the NBA (for a decently long stretch) to the team with the most games played. Frank had very, very little practice time to do anything, whereas Jim had a few weeks like this one, where we played on Sunday then had two days off before our next game.

I've known this was a +.500 team all along if used properly, but I didn't think we had a chance to be .500 under Frank due to limited practice and the brutal schedule. Last night's win guaranteed a .500 record under Frank.

Making the playoffs is a pleasant surprise. And we did it despite having a ton of room to grow. We got really inconsistent play from Roy, Danny and Darren, our big three. We made it in because of Tyler's sudden growth and our bench's play.

IF everything else is status quo, and we can get good play from two of our big three plus an assertive Paul George, then I think we can make the games pretty interesting.

Kegboy
04-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Vogel sees the positive side, JOB saw the negative. We were ready to see some positive (and many were tired of the negative) - fine, but it doesn't make the positive suddenly perfectly correct except in a hindsight where the circumstances worked out.

It's not positive versus negative. If somebody actually tells their boss "it can't be done", and then his neophyte assistant is given the project and succeeds a week before the deadline, that's not only a damning indictment on the former, but it naturally makes the later look that much better by comparison. In fact, in such a scenario, it's pretty easy to reach one of two conclusions. Either the first guy was incompetent, or the second is a wunderkind.

Now, neither could be the case. The "honey vs. vinegar" argument isn't new. But when a man puts that stake in the ground that something simply isn't possible, and a kid comes along and does it fairly easily on his first shot, it's obvious the man was missing something.

flox
04-07-2011, 11:05 AM
That is fine, but I will counter by saying Jim didn't have a month that sniffed the brutality of our March schedule. That's the worst non-lockout monthly schedule I've ever seen. We played 17 games in 30 days with 6 sets of back-to-backs and 2 three-game road trips. Let that soak in for a minute.

January. 9 games against playoff teams.

December11-Janurary29- 17/28 Games versus playoff teams, versus Vogel who has had 12 games versus playoff teams TOTAL (with two left making 14 overall).

vnzla81
04-07-2011, 11:07 AM
I do not want to get into JOB or Frank.

I just want to make a general comment about your general point. You are 100% correct if you are comparing a full season coached by coach A vs a full season coached by coach B in that case the schedules even out.

However what you are saying is incorrect if you are comparing coach A who coached the first 44 games to coach B who coached the final 38 games. Yes one of the things anyone should look at is strength of schedule - especially when there is a large difference.

At the very least strength of schedule should not be out of bounds as a means to compare the results of the two coaches. I know one thing if Vogel had coached the tougher part of the schedule and had gone 19-16 it would be brought up in this forum as a major feather in his cap. I know I would would think more highly of the job Frank did if he was able to go 19-16 during December and January of this season.


Why you keep acting like we were going to lose those games(under JOB) even if Phill Jackson was the coach? should I remind you who our Power Forward was? I am pretty sure that if he had a decent coach since the beginning of the year and this coach decided to play everybody in their right positions and stopped jacking up threes, instead of been fighting for the 8th spot of the playoffs we could have been fighting for 6th or 7th place.

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 11:08 AM
Without comparing our record against playoff teams under Vogel vs. our record against playoff teams under JOB could someone please compare our record against under .500 teams under Vogel vs. our record vs. under .500 teams under JOB please. I think there will be some truth in that number.

Basically, I'm betting that our record against teams under .500 with Vogel as our head coach is noticeably better than our record against teams under .500 with JOB as our head coach. Only two teams in the entire Eastern Conference have winning records against teams over .500. It's about treading water against teams over .500 and beating the hell out of the teams under .500, and I think Frank has done that much better than JOB.

BRushWithDeath
04-07-2011, 11:09 AM
January. 9 games against playoff teams.

December11-Janurary29- 17/28 Games versus playoff teams, versus Vogel who has had 12 games versus playoff teams TOTAL (with one left making 13 overall).

All three remaining games are against playoff teams.

Making 15 out of 38 for Frank.

beast23
04-07-2011, 11:20 AM
Crap. First off, let me say that I'm not happy with the fact that the "feel-good" intention of the thread got de-railed. I think we have totally lost focus on the the fact that the thread is about making the playoffs.

With that said, let me be the next person to continue this loss of focus.

I enjoyed watching this team play the first 10-15 games of the season. To sum it up, let's just say that everyone seemed to be on the same page and played with both passion and joy. I did not like the system of play, but I enjoyed that team and was proud of the way they approached their work.

Shortly afterwards, something happened. I rarely enjoyed watching the team play and it seems that most of the simple joy of playing was gone.

Later in the season, a new head coach came on board. Not only did they re-established their passion and joy, they totally re-invented their identity. I was proud of the team that came out at the start of the season, but I am even more proud of the team that we have now because I have a much greater appreciation of how they play the game... I identify with that and I believe it is certainly representative of what we would all refer to as "Hoosier basketball".

Although I have acknowledged the coaching change, I believe this observation can be made without even considering that the change took place. We are proud of our present team and the fact that they persevered and were able to make the playoffs.

BillS
04-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Either the first guy was incompetent, or the second is a wunderkind.

Or something outside the control of both guys changed.

Saying the team is not a playoff team could mean "under no circumstances, even if all 29 other teams were whisked away to play against aliens, will we make the playoffs" or it could mean "all other things remaining equal, standing on their own we will not make the playoffs". We don't know which context, or what degree in between, the statement was made between JOB or Larry. We have an after-the-fact paraphrase.

Really, everyone during the JOB tenure thought the Bucks were going to continue being what they were last year at some point, so that was a realistic statement. There were non-JOB supporters agreeing with the statement, and many who changed their minds when Vogel took over changed back when he had his own losing streak.

We did what we had to do to take advantage of the circumstances, but had the situations of our rivals for 8th spot been the same as last year, even with our own work this year, we'd have missed the playoffs.

Given those probabilities, it is better to overdeliver than overpromise.

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 11:27 AM
So I did the math, using the current NBA standing as the determination of whether the team was an over .500 team or under .500 team, and if I'm correct JOB was 10-7 against teams under .500 and that would make him 7-20 against teams over .500. Frank meanwhile is 14-7 against teams under .500 and 5-9 against teams over .500.

If that math is right, someone needs to double check I was just looking through our schedule and then cross checking it to the standings on ESPN and then putting the numbers in an excel file, Vogel has given us a significant improvement in our winning percentage against teams below .500 (Again this is how you get to the playoffs as a young team), and a slight improvement in our record against teams over .500. Has he gotten to play more teams under .500? Yep absolutely. 4 more, but he's taken advantage of every one of those extra games and actually won them. Something that going by the stats it doesn't look like a JOB coached Pacers team would have done.

If we win these last 3 games, Frank would move to 8-9 against teams over .500. A HUGE improvement over the numbers JOB was putting up, it would get to the point to where it's not even up for debate as to if the schedule meant anything. The evidence suggests that even if we moved flip flopped the portions of the season they had to coach, Frank still would have gotten superior production and a superior record out of the team.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 11:28 AM
Without comparing our record against playoff teams under Vogel vs. our record against playoff teams under JOB could someone please compare our record against under .500 teams under Vogel vs. our record vs. under .500 teams under JOB please. I think there will be some truth in that number.




That will take some time.

How about I do this, record vs teams that currently have a worse record than the Pacers.

JOB was 10-5 - losses - Bucks at home, Bucks on road, @Wash, @Clips, @ G. State.

Vogel is 14-5 losses: @ Detroit twice, @Minny, @ Toronto, Home to Kings


Just at first glance of the 10 losses total, I would say that JOB had 1 really bad loss - @ Wash.
Vogel had 2 or 3 @Minny, @Toronto and home to the Kings.

Pacers have only had two home losses all season to teams with a worse record. That isn't bad.

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 11:32 AM
JOB only had 9 wins against teams under .500 UB.

EDIT: I mis-counted. He did in fact have 10. Must have missed one at some point. So he was 10-7 against team under .500 and 7 and 20 against teams over .500.

Anthem
04-07-2011, 11:32 AM
Jim on the other hand told Larry Bird that this team could not make the playoffs. Thatís right he said that this team could not make the playoffs, itís more fun to type that on a night when the team just secured a playoff berth.
What? How did I miss this? Can we get a link?

Hicks
04-07-2011, 11:36 AM
All I know is:

* I don't believe for a second Jim would have taken us 19-16 over this stretch.
* I believe in our current brand of basketball a hell of a lot more than I did the style we played prior to the end of January.
* We're not leaning on TJ Ford and Posey anymore, we're getting a ton of experience for Price, George, Josh, and Tyler.
* I'm certainly a happier fan now than I was months ago.
* We're in the *** damned playoffs

With all of the above in mind, I find it hard to give much of a **** about these pointless arguments that keep popping up.

:gopacers:

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 11:41 AM
JOB only had 9 wins against teams under .500 UB.

EDIT: I mis-counted. He did in fact have 10. Must have missed one at some point. So he was 10-7 against team under .500 and 7 and 20 against teams over .500.


Are you looking at what the records of the teams are now or when the Pacers played the teams. I just never know how to do that.

Interestingly enough the Pacers are 0-6 against the Rockets, Suns and Jazz - teams that won't make the playoffs but have a better record than the Pacers. JOB was 0-3 and Frank was 0-3

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 11:43 AM
What? How did I miss this? Can we get a link?

That was reported. No direct quote from Jim O'Brien or Bird. Or, wait a minute, did Bird say this - I'm getting old.

Jim hasn't said a word since he was fired. (No one cares, I know, but that is classy)

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 11:45 AM
Are you looking at what the records of the teams are now or when the Pacers played the teams. I just never know how to do that.

Interestingly enough the Pacers are 0-6 against the Rockets, Suns and Jazz - teams that won't make the playoffs but have a better record than the Pacers. JOB was 0-3 and Frank was 0-3

I'm looking at who is under .500 RIGHT NOW. Not when we played them.

Based on that...

JOB was 10-7 against teams under .500
7-20 against teams over .500

Vogel is 14-7 against teams under .500
5-9 against teams over .500

bellisimo
04-07-2011, 11:46 AM
Are you looking at what the records of the teams are now or when the Pacers played the teams. I just never know how to do that.

Interestingly enough the Pacers are 0-6 against the Rockets, Suns and Jazz - teams that won't make the playoffs but have a better record than the Pacers. JOB was 0-3 and Frank was 0-3


should be done looking at the current standings

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 11:46 AM
That was reported. No direct quote from Jim O'Brien or Bird. Or, wait a minute, did Bird say this - I'm getting old.

Jim hasn't said a word since he was fired. (No one cares, I know, but that is classy)

It's not like anyone gave him the chance to say anything.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 11:48 AM
It's not like anyone gave him the chance to say anything.


You don't think if he called up Wells or Kravitz they wouldn't interview him and have a singificant article about it. If JOB wanted to say something he'd be all over the local media.

Hicks
04-07-2011, 11:49 AM
That was reported. No direct quote from Jim O'Brien or Bird. Or, wait a minute, did Bird say this - I'm getting old.

Jim hasn't said a word since he was fired. (No one cares, I know, but that is classy)

Was it Kravitz?

bellisimo
04-07-2011, 11:50 AM
I'm looking at who is under .500 RIGHT NOW. Not when we played them.

Based on that...

JOB was 10-7 against teams under .500
7-20 against teams over .500

Vogel is 14-7 against teams under .500
5-9 against teams over .500

So JOB's record against teams under .500 was .588
and against teams over .500 was .259

while Vogel's against under .500 is .666
and against teams over .500 is .357

Speed
04-07-2011, 11:53 AM
What? How did I miss this? Can we get a link?

I remember it too, I want to say it was a Wells tweet maybe or maybe an insider blog article on Indystar. I am not positive though.

You know it might have even been a podcast with Wells being interviewed, now that I think about. I read/listen to so much stuff about the Pacers, it all runs together over time.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 11:54 AM
So JOB's record against teams under .500 was .588
and against teams over .500 was .259

while Vogel's against under .500 is .666
and against teams over .500 is .357


Ok, what does that tell us? I have no idea. Seems to track their overall records for this season. Why were we looking at these.

vnzla81
04-07-2011, 11:56 AM
So JOB's record against teams under .500 was .588
and against teams over .500 was .259

while Vogel's against under .500 is .666
and against teams over .500 is .357

So are you are trying to say that Vogel is a better coach than Jim? ............... :rockon:

imawhat
04-07-2011, 11:57 AM
That was reported. No direct quote from Jim O'Brien or Bird. Or, wait a minute, did Bird say this - I'm getting old.

Jim hasn't said a word since he was fired. (No one cares, I know, but that is classy)

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's really, really rare to hear a former coach interviewed in the same season they were fired.

Can you think of any time that's happened?

It's surprising because it'd be much more interesting than a writer's average, mid-season piece. There's probably an understanding that coaches don't talk about former teams as it could hurt their chances of being re-hired. Or maybe coaches sign an agreement to not divulge information/talk negatively as part of their severance package. I don't know.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 11:59 AM
Now that I'm thinking about it, it's really, really rare to hear a former coach interviewed in the same season they were fired.

Can you think of any time that's happened?

It's surprising because it'd be much more interesting than a writer's average, mid-season piece. There's probably an understanding that coaches don't talk about former teams as it could hurt their chances of being re-hired. Or maybe coaches sign an agreement to not divulge information/talk negatively as part of their severance package. I don't know.


Versace did and did and did.

Carlisle had a press conference after he was fired from Detroit, and spoke after he was let go from here, but he is too classy to say anything negative.

Who else was fired this year? Larry Brown, not sure he has said anything. Was any other coaches fired? Wow that might be a record.

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 11:59 AM
Ok, what does that tell us? I have no idea. Seems to track their overall records for this season. Why were we looking at these.

It suggests that the easier schedule argument is, as JOB would say, irrelevant.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 12:00 PM
It suggests that the easier schedule argument is, as JOB would say, irrelevant.


No, Jim had a more difficult schedule, the stats against the below .500 teams don't change that

Really instead of just looking at below .500 teams you should look at the exactwinning % of each team and use that as that tells you who they actually lost too, which I listed, and I suggested that Vogel had as many bad losses as Jim did.

I mean losing at Milwaukee is not a bad loss, losing at home to the Kings is. Losing at Wash is a bad loss, losing at Phoenix is not .

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 12:02 PM
No, Jim had a more difficult schedule, the stats against the below .500 teams don't change that

Using the %'s normalizes it. Vogel has a higher winning percentage against teams over .500 and under .500. It's pretty cut and dry. JOB would not have produced better results than Vogel in this easier stretch. He may have produced better results than what he did at the start of the year, but that is just JOB competing against himself.

mildlysane
04-07-2011, 12:02 PM
The only thing I worry about is that Frank's success may get him hired without the front office giving interviews to more qualified coaches. It reminds me of when Bob Knight was fired and Mike Davis was hired as a replacement, due mainly to his success in the tournament and several high profile coaches didn't even get an interview. Frank MAY be the "One", but I really want to make sure of that. There are several more experienced (and good) coaches out there without jobs, so I hope they get a fair shot at the job.

imawhat
04-07-2011, 12:03 PM
Sloan, Brown and O'Brien are the only coaching changes from the regular season.

It just seems that so many coaches, especially Isaiah, could have a ton of negative things to say after being fired. Maybe he did, but I can't remember.

Brad8888
04-07-2011, 12:04 PM
That will take some time.

How about I do this, record vs teams that currently have a worse record than the Pacers.

JOB was 10-5 - losses - Bucks at home, Bucks on road, @Wash, @Clips, @ G. State.

Vogel is 14-5 losses: @ Detroit twice, @Minny, @ Toronto, Home to Kings


Just at first glance of the 10 losses total, I would say that JOB had 1 really bad loss - @ Wash.
Vogel had 2 or 3 @Minny, @Toronto and home to the Kings.

Pacers have only had two home losses all season to teams with a worse record. That isn't bad.

As has been stated previously, this is a classic sign of a young team with young players being developed. And, this young team is finally getting a chance to learn the NBA game while playing a style that emphasizes its strengths and playing a style that is grounded in more fundamental play.

Inconsistency is the only thing that can be counted on currently, but that is a side effect of the young guys playing. Do those young guys have more talent and athleticism than the veterans? I think that answer (yes, the Animal Crackers have more talent than Posey and Murphy, etc.) is becoming more obvious as time passes. Do the veterans give the team its best chance to win? Again, I think that answer (yes, the Pacers have a better chance to win any given game by using a common sense approach of playing their best players, who happen to be young for the most part, in a way that maximizes their strengths) is becoming more obvious as time passes.

The best part of it all is that the young guys will now have a chance to progress and learn the game and actually have a foundation to build future success on that hopefully will lead to the type of success that we, as Pacers fans, used to take for granted.

Who knows, with a solid foundation of young guys who can make the playoffs, maybe the last piece or two necessary to regain contender status will be more likely to want to come here, fan support will truly return, and eventually our hopes and dreams of a title might even be realized!

Goooooooo Pacers!!!!!!!!

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 12:05 PM
With all of the above in mind, I find it hard to give much of a **** about these pointless arguments that keep popping up.

:gopacers:


You know if we eliminated every pointless argument in this forum we would be down to what? almost nothing?

I have a pointless argument: how about giving JOB credit for laying the foundation for this team to be able to make the playoffs, afterall so many of you argue that Vogel has had very little practice time, so really Vogel is winning with what JOB taught them for 3.5 years, 4 training camps.....is that pointless enough

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 12:10 PM
You know if we eliminated every pointless argument in this forum we would be down to what? almost nothing?

Well it is a sports forum after all. :D

Peck
04-07-2011, 12:12 PM
See once again this is the problem when you are using pure statistics as an argument without looking at the context.

The fact of the numbers state that both the Bucks & the Bobcats had a worse record than we did and that when we played both of them by definition we should have won.

However what it does not take into consideration is the fact that both of these teams were fighting for their playoff lives and our team beat them both times.

However because you guys are just lumping numbers together this goes down in the pile of four games against teams with losing records when I view them as monumental steps our franchise took to get to the playoffs.

I want you Uncle Buck & you BillS to get on here right now and type the words that you believe that Jim O'Brien would have had the same or better record than what Frank Vogel did over the same exact period of time vs. the same schedule. No qualifiers, no if's or butt's or anything else. If you honestly believe that Jim would have ended the season winning the same number of games due to strength of schedule then shout it out.

But before you do, you might want to go look at Jim's record vs. the Milwaukee Bucks. The same team that btw Frank Vogel is undefeated against. We had lost the previous 6 vs. them I know but go back over time and look at his record vs. them.

I love how us making the playoffs under the rules as they were set up is now a thing to be poo-pooed and skoffed at.

Well I'm not letting any of you bring me down over this. In the names of Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, Big Mac, Slick Leonard & Reggie Miller I declare this a day of Pacers celebration.

Making the playoffs with our young guys means something, beating teams we had to beat to end their playoff hopes means something, having a head coach who is not the care taker of evil doers eternal souls for all of eternity means something.

Even if it means nothing to you.

So let all Pacer fans who are not looking for excuses rejoice & join me in the celebration of the dancing fruit & smilies.

:carrot::pineapple:mango::cucumber::rock::dorange: :apple::bdance::dance3::badger::kravitz::yay::yay: :bgroovy:

BillS
04-07-2011, 12:15 PM
while Vogel's against under .500 is .666


But - wait - I thought JOB was the devil :devil: ...

vnzla81
04-07-2011, 12:17 PM
You know if we eliminated every pointless argument in this forum we would be down to what? almost nothing?

I have a pointless argument: how about giving JOB credit for laying the foundation for this team to be able to make the playoffs, afterall so many of you argue that Vogel has had very little practice time, so really Vogel is winning with what JOB taught them for 3.5 years, 4 training camps.....is that pointless enough

http://cdn.thefrisky.com/images/uploads/cnn.say_.no_m_.jpg

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 12:17 PM
Peck I agree completely about our wins against the Bobcats and the Bucks, but I was just breaking it down into the simplest of terms because even in those, Vogel has out performed JOB.

Peck
04-07-2011, 12:20 PM
You know if we eliminated every pointless argument in this forum we would be down to what? almost nothing?

I have a pointless argument: how about giving JOB credit for laying the foundation for this team to be able to make the playoffs, afterall so many of you argue that Vogel has had very little practice time, so really Vogel is winning with what JOB taught them for 3.5 years, 4 training camps.....is that pointless enough

Completly agree. On the offensive end Jim taught them the wrong way to play basketball and once he was gone we took that lesson to heart, changed everything up and started winning.

So thank you Jim.:)

BillS
04-07-2011, 12:29 PM
I want you Uncle Buck & you BillS to get on here right now and type the words that you believe that Jim O'Brien would have had the same or better record than what Frank Vogel did over the same exact period of time vs. the same schedule. No qualifiers, no if's or butt's or anything else. If you honestly believe that Jim would have ended the season winning the same number of games due to strength of schedule then shout it out.

Why should I do that? That isn't my argument. My argument is that JOB's assessment of this team not making the playoffs wasn't some ridiculous underestimation of how the team could perform with a good coach, not that JOB could lead the team to the playoffs.

I think under Vogel the team did what it had to do and was helped by the Bobcats blowing themselves up. I don't think that under Vogel this suddenly became a team that could make the playoffs with no help from other teams losing ground.

Peck
04-07-2011, 12:37 PM
Why should I do that? That isn't my argument. My argument is that JOB's assessment of this team not making the playoffs wasn't some ridiculous underestimation of how the team could perform with a good coach, not that JOB could lead the team to the playoffs.

I think under Vogel the team did what it had to do and was helped by the Bobcats blowing themselves up. I don't think that under Vogel this suddenly became a team that could make the playoffs with no help from other teams losing ground.

Sooooooo.......

You don't believe that Jim would have had the exact same or better record?

Since86
04-07-2011, 12:42 PM
I have a pointless argument: how about giving JOB credit for laying the foundation for this team to be able to make the playoffs, afterall so many of you argue that Vogel has had very little practice time, so really Vogel is winning with what JOB taught them for 3.5 years, 4 training camps.....is that pointless enough

Yeah, you're right. I'm sure Troy Murphy is using that knowledge as he sits his *** on Boston's bench.

I'm sure James Posey is using that knowledge as he sits his *** on the Pacers bench.

I'm sure TJ Ford is using that knowledge as he sits his *** at home.




But yes, thank you Jim O'Brien for relying on those three guys and building such a strong freaking foundation. It was greatly appreciated.

BillS
04-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Sooooooo.......

You don't believe that Jim would have had the exact same or better record?

For what its worth, no, but that would be without the typical end of season run that screws up everyone's projections.

My point is that even WITH Vogel's record, there was still no guarantee we'd make the playoffs. Therefore JOB's statement wasn't some example of stupidity, just pessimism - just as if Vogel continued with his own certainty that we would make the playoffs but Charlotte fails to implode and therefore manages to beat us out for the 8th spot it wouldn't make his optimism a stupid concept. Just half full vs. half empty.

vnzla81
04-07-2011, 12:56 PM
For what its worth, no, but that would be without the typical end of season run that screws up everyone's projections.

My point is that even WITH Vogel's record, there was still no guarantee we'd make the playoffs. Therefore JOB's statement wasn't some example of stupidity, just pessimism - just as if Vogel continued with his own certainty that we would make the playoffs but Charlotte fails to implode and therefore manages to beat us out for the 8th spot it wouldn't make his optimism a stupid concept. Just half full vs. half empty.

:blahblah:

BillS
04-07-2011, 12:57 PM
:blahblah:

:rolleyes:

If JOB said the sun was coming up tomorrow you'd use a cloudy day as proof he lied.

Since86
04-07-2011, 01:02 PM
I didn't realize Jim was a weather man as well. What channel did he get hired too?

Oh, BTW the Sun still comes up even on a cloudy day.

BillS
04-07-2011, 01:04 PM
Oh, BTW the Sun still comes up even on a cloudy day.

That was the point.

Since86
04-07-2011, 01:09 PM
That was the point.


That doesn't even make sense.

Anthem
04-07-2011, 01:18 PM
Man, you guys are chippy. I figured the playoffs would have everybody singing kumbaya.

Major Cold
04-07-2011, 01:21 PM
That doesn't even make sense.


You don't get it.

Were the sub .500 teams sub .500 with JOB as coach? Were the Bobcats without Wallace? Did the Pistons get better as the season went on, thus making loses under Vogel different than under JOB?

There are so many variables. But as Peck said I do not think that JOB could have won the same amount of games as Vogel. But I do not the the players would have responded to him at all.

I do not think that Vogel would have faired much better under the same time frame as JOB had either. All in all I think for us to make the playoffs JOB needed to be let go. If Vogel was coach at the start of the season I do not think that we would have moved up in positioning.

Since86
04-07-2011, 01:24 PM
You don't get it.

Obviously.

It's a bad analogy, because the sun rising is a certainty, and the sun still rises eventhough it's cloudy.

Jim said the Pacers wouldn't/couldn't make the playoffs. They did.

No one is calling Jim a liar, like Bill asked. They're saying he was wrong in his assessment. Just like he was wrong in his playing style assessment, just like he was wrong in his player evaluation assessment etc.

Being wrong doesn't make you a liar.

It's a horrible comparison, that doesn't make any sense.

tfarks
04-07-2011, 01:30 PM
Man, you guys are chippy. I figured the playoffs would have everybody singing kumbaya.

Haha. Bottom line, this is a message board. On the internet. :box:

BillS
04-07-2011, 01:39 PM
Obviously.

It's a bad analogy, because the sun rising is a certainty, and the sun still rises eventhough it's cloudy.

Jim said the Pacers wouldn't/couldn't make the playoffs. They did.

No one is calling Jim a liar, like Bill asked. They're saying he was wrong in his assessment. Just like he was wrong in his playing style assessment, just like he was wrong in his player evaluation assessment etc.

Being wrong doesn't make you a liar.

It's a horrible comparison, that doesn't make any sense.

I can try to explain, but I know I'm digging a bigger hole.

1) We don't know exactly how JOB said the team would not make the playoffs, if it was a definite statement or a qualified statement. We don't have a quote, just a paraphrase (whether it came from Bird, Kravitz, or Wells doesn't matter).

2) He was obviously wrong in his assessment, but that is not an indication of him having lost touch with reality or of Vogel obviously being a better coach. It is as much an indication that circumstances worked out otherwise. JOB chose to focus on the worst possibility, Vogel on the best. One of them was going to be wrong.

3) My explanation has been dismissed by vnzla81 as unworthy of comment, who knows why.

4) My response was by means of dismissing vnzla81's dismissal by satirically claiming that if JOB said something that would be patently true, his statement would be considered wrong if that truth were obscured in any way.

Since86
04-07-2011, 01:47 PM
I understand the point that you were trying to make.

But it's starting to get silly. The Pacers can only control the Pacers. Whatever Mil did or didn't do, whatever Cha did or didn't do, doesn't matter. They (the Pacers) have zero control over their situations.

All the Pacers can do is play the schedule that they're given and hope that they put forth a better record than those two teams.

They did that. Who freaking cares that Cha traded away Wallace or that Mil had injuries.

Dunleavy missed a good portion of the games down the stretch, the Pacers started a rookie, and two second year players. Mil and Cha both have playoff experience, both of them are vet teams that know what it takes to get the job done. They didn't get it done, and the Pacers did.



The song "You spin me right round" pops into my head when I was reading this thread, because it's such full of stupid defenses that change every time they're shut down.


Big freaking whoop Jim coached a bigger portion of the schedule. Like it has already been shown, the Pacers under Coach Vogel play better against sub 0.500 teams and over 0.500 teams.

What more proof do you need?

None. Nothing in the world can be said, or done, to change your, UB, and flox's mind. It's been that way for 6months.

The fact that Peck straight up said if you don't want to read it about Jim then move along, and this whole thread is about that one freaking portion of his post tells me all I need to know.

You have told us for so long Bill that you got in this position because you hate seeing all the extreme. Well guess what, you're the extreme now. You're in the exact position that you hated seeing, but you're still plugging away.

Good luck.

BillS
04-07-2011, 01:54 PM
You're doing the same thing as Peck. I'm not part of the argument about whether Vogel's record is better or worse and what that proves. I was ONLY commenting on whether the fact that JOB said we wouldn't make the playoffs and we did is in and of itself some kind of proof of how bad he was or how good Vogel is. I was ONLY trying to point out that it wasn't any more proof than Vogel saying we WOULD make them and we missed would somehow mean he wasn't as good as JOB.

That's all.

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 02:04 PM
I want you Uncle Buck & you BillS to get on here right now and type the words that you believe that Jim O'Brien would have had the same or better record than what Frank Vogel did over the same exact period of time vs. the same schedule.

No I don't think he would have had the same record as Frank. The team was quitting on Jim, so yeah, no way. But really my point in looking at the schedules is to try and use it to judge Frank Vogel and only Frank. Jim is gone and not coming back. Frank is here and might be coming back. And when I decide whether I want him back I want to know what the schedule was like when he was able to go 19-16. I think that is an important factor.

With that schedule I don't think 19-16 is that impressive, it is good. he's done a good job, I've never said anything different since he's taken over. he's done a good job. If he does a great job in the playoffs I might want him back, if he does a good job, probably not.

That is why I care about the schedule.

Since86
04-07-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't even understand how that argument can be made.

Jim O'Brien didn't think the Pacers were good enough to make the playoffs, period. He makes that assessment based on their play, WHICH HE COACHED.

Do I think the Pacers make the playoffs if Jim was still the coach? Hell no, I would say that Jim was correct on that particular assessment, because I think the style he coached isn't a winning style.

Jim tried saving his own *** with that statement, period. That was his last ditch effort to either save his job, or save face, take your pick.


Jim looked up and down his roster and decided that they weren't good enough to be a playoff team, and the best solution was to play his bull**** gimmicky system and lean heavily on the vets.

Wouldn't common sense tell you that if you're not good enough to make the post season that you should atleast try and develop your young players for next year? Well, that's common sense for me anyways....

Jim did the exact opposite. He said he didn't think they could make the playoffs, and still used James Freaking Posey as his closing 4, for close games. Instead of using those close games, which obviously meant nothing to him because he didn't think they could make the playoffs, he decided that he would try to win as many as possible, miss the playoffs, and not give that time for experience purposes.


THAT is what you're defending.



For pure hypothetical reasons, say that I agree with Jim that I didn't think we could make the playoffs.

Then why in the freaking world would I want to see James Freaking Posey close out close games when those close games could be used to get my younger players, who are actually apart of the future of the franchise experience?

That has been one of my biggest problems with Jim.

If you're not good enough to make it into post season play, and the season is a waste, then why not give as many minutes to your younger players as possible? Why not try and get max development out of them so you don't have to postpone the growing pains for another year?

I really don't care that Jim didn't think they weren't good enough to make the playoffs, I think he said that just to try and save face.

I care that he thinks they couldn't and still plays yo-yo with the younger guys in favor of his vet players.

That's a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem.

EDIT: And before you say that you're not trying to defend Jim, that you're just trying to give the discussion context, or whatever, realize that perception is reality.

You come in and poo-poo anything positive Frank that is also anti-Jim.

Whether or not that's your intention, that's what you do.

Peck
04-07-2011, 02:15 PM
No I don't think he would have had the same record as Frank. The team was quitting on Jim, so yeah, no way. But really my point in looking at the schedules is to try and use it to judge Frank Vogel and only Frank. Jim is gone and not coming back. Frank is here and might be coming back. And when I decide whether I want him back I want to know what the schedule was like when he was able to go 19-16. I think that is an important factor.

With that schedule I don't think 19-16 is that impressive, it is good. he's done a good job, I've never said anything different since he's taken over. he's done a good job. If he does a great job in the playoffs I might want him back, if he does a good job, probably not.

That is why I care about the schedule.

That's fine as long as you don't use it as either the main factor or the only factor. It just seems like since the other day that people seem to be downplaying the teams record by choosing to use one statistic (SoS) while choosing to ignore other factors (injury, youth, new lineup, change of rotations, change of style of play, etc.)

I said in my main post that I'm not sure if Frank is the coach to move forward with. I like the guy, I really do & so far his offensive coaching has been towards my taste (which also happens to be winning but I digress) but if Bird say's that we are going to bring in such & such person to coach the club to take it to the next level I won't want to burn down the fieldhouse either.

BillS
04-07-2011, 02:38 PM
EDIT: And before you say that you're not trying to defend Jim, that you're just trying to give the discussion context, or whatever, realize that perception is reality.

You come in and poo-poo anything positive Frank that is also anti-Jim.

Whether or not that's your intention, that's what you do.

Fair enough.

I'll be addressing the rest of your post below, but I wanted to put this at the top to make sure you know I understand where you're coming from.

The only thing I can say is there seem to be a lot of people who poo-poo anything that is positive (or even neutral) about JOB as totally impossible and unthinkable.


I don't even understand how that argument can be made.

Jim O'Brien didn't think the Pacers were good enough to make the playoffs, period. He makes that assessment based on their play, WHICH HE COACHED.

Do I think the Pacers make the playoffs if Jim was still the coach? Hell no, I would say that Jim was correct on that particular assessment, because I think the style he coached isn't a winning style.

Jim tried saving his own *** with that statement, period. That was his last ditch effort to either save his job, or save face, take your pick.

Why does the motivation have to be this self-serving and venal? Why is it so difficult to just believe he was making an honest assessment (and one that a majority of people on this board were on the verge of agreeing with)? You can (and do) make the argument that a different style might be what made the difference, but to say that any opposing assessment is the act of someone who knows he sucks and is basely trying to save his job over any other considerations is unfair, no matter what lack of <i>ability</i> you credit JOB with.



Jim looked up and down his roster and decided that they weren't good enough to be a playoff team, and the best solution was to play his bull**** gimmicky system and lean heavily on the vets.

He may not have been a good enough coach to make that work, and his system may have been wrong, but he believed it was the right direction to go. That's a far cry from implying that he knew it wasn't going to work and stuck with it anyway.


Wouldn't common sense tell you that if you're not good enough to make the post season that you should at least try and develop your young players for next year? Well, that's common sense for me anyways....

Jim did the exact opposite. He said he didn't think they could make the playoffs, and still used James Freaking Posey as his closing 4, for close games. Instead of using those close games, which obviously meant nothing to him because he didn't think they could make the playoffs, he decided that he would try to win as many as possible, miss the playoffs, and not give that time for experience purposes.


THAT is what you're defending.

Since I don't agree that if you feel you can't make the playoffs you just throw the season in the air and get "experience" for young players no matter what the cost, then yes, I guess I am.

I DO agree that there were minutes that could have been used for young players, that JOB relied on players who weren't performing the way he somehow thought they could, and that he could not or would not adjust to the realities of what took place on the floor. I agree that his faith in his offensive system was in many ways misplaced.

I don't argue that JOB wasn't a flawed - or even extremely flawed - coach. I agree that those flaws held the team back and led to him losing them completely.

I argue that there was not some clear-cut "in situation X you ALWAYS do Y and he was not smart enough to do so" answer, especially since I disagree with a lot of the Y answers people propose here. I especially argue against any answer that smacks of "he KNEW what was happening and chose to selfishly try to save his job above all else".



But that's all beside the point of the discussion I was having here. The point was that even though I agree Vogel was a better choice to finish the season than JOB (read that again, please, and keep it in mind), I believe there were circumstances beyond just his coaching that led to us getting a playoff spot. After all, we missed a playoff spot in 2008 going 11-5 down the stretch and winning the same number of games as we have so far (and most people have us chalked up for losses the last 3 so the record may very well end up the same). None of this stuff happens in a vacuum.

TinManJoshua
04-07-2011, 02:41 PM
For what its worth, no, but that would be without the typical end of season run that screws up everyone's projections.

My point is that even WITH Vogel's record, there was still no guarantee we'd make the playoffs. Therefore JOB's statement wasn't some example of stupidity, just pessimism - just as if Vogel continued with his own certainty that we would make the playoffs but Charlotte fails to implode and therefore manages to beat us out for the 8th spot it wouldn't make his optimism a stupid concept. Just half full vs. half empty.

There's a difference between pessimism and flat-out not believing in your guys. That is what's being pointed out. Jim wasn't pessimistic, he didn't believe in the team he was coaching.

Peck
04-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Fair enough.

I'll be addressing the rest of your post below, but I wanted to put this at the top to make sure you know I understand where you're coming from.

The only thing I can say is there seem to be a lot of people who poo-poo anything that is positive (or even neutral) about JOB as totally impossible and unthinkable.



Why does the motivation have to be this self-serving and venal? Why is it so difficult to just believe he was making an honest assessment (and one that a majority of people on this board were on the verge of agreeing with)? You can (and do) make the argument that a different style might be what made the difference, but to say that any opposing assessment is the act of someone who knows he sucks and is basely trying to save his job over any other considerations is unfair, no matter what lack of <i>ability</i> you credit JOB with.




He may not have been a good enough coach to make that work, and his system may have been wrong, but he believed it was the right direction to go. That's a far cry from implying that he knew it wasn't going to work and stuck with it anyway.



Since I don't agree that if you feel you can't make the playoffs you just throw the season in the air and get "experience" for young players no matter what the cost, then yes, I guess I am.

I DO agree that there were minutes that could have been used for young players, that JOB relied on players who weren't performing the way he somehow thought they could, and that he could not or would not adjust to the realities of what took place on the floor. I agree that his faith in his offensive system was in many ways misplaced.

I don't argue that JOB wasn't a flawed - or even extremely flawed - coach. I agree that those flaws held the team back and led to him losing them completely.

I argue that there was not some clear-cut "in situation X you ALWAYS do Y and he was not smart enough to do so" answer, especially since I disagree with a lot of the Y answers people propose here. I especially argue against any answer that smacks of "he KNEW what was happening and chose to selfishly try to save his job above all else".



But that's all beside the point of the discussion I was having here. The point was that even though I agree Vogel was a better choice to finish the season than JOB (read that again, please, and keep it in mind), I believe there were circumstances beyond just his coaching that led to us getting a playoff spot. After all, we missed a playoff spot in 2008 going 11-5 down the stretch and winning the same number of games as we have so far (and most people have us chalked up for losses the last 3 so the record may very well end up the same). None of this stuff happens in a vacuum.

Couldn't agree more.

I'll concede that from my point of view as well. Yes other teams did not perform up to expectations so in essence that did help in our playoff race.

But as you said, it's not in a vacuum. We beat two of those teams in crucial heavily contested playoff atmosphere type games and we did it with both of them fighting for thier very lives. Both teams after being beaten by us went on winning streaks to try and save their season, neither could. Why because we won some games as well.

Do we know the context in which Jim was speaking? No, none of us were there but I think most of us are smart enough to know that Jim didn't just pull that statement out of his @ss either. He didn't believe in them, as the interviews with team members have made clear since he has been gone. In fact Tyler has an interview in which the title is called I had a coach who didn't believe in me.

Jim is a very frustrating person. He knows how to coach, I've said it before & I'll say it again, he can coach any style you want. He just is so burried into advanced statistics that he can't see the forest for the tree's. He play's the %'s and has no real feel for the game.

However while he is a smart coach, there is more to coaching than knowing X's & O's. Communication is a coaching skill, adjustment is a coaching skill these are two things that Jim is lacking and to which, so far anyway, Frank seems to have a decent grasp of.

But again I invite both you & Uncle Buck to join my in laying down our arms of the eternal Jim O'Brien is the devil debate and let us join together in at the very least a celebratory banana dance to our beloved Pacers making the playoffs.

:dance::dance::dance:

Or would you have predered we tanked.;)

BillS
04-07-2011, 02:59 PM
There's a difference between pessimism and flat-out not believing in your guys. That is what's being pointed out. Jim wasn't pessimistic, he didn't believe in the team he was coaching.

Again, we do not have the exact quote or context. One side seems to be taking it as "we'll NEVER make the playoffs", while the other side takes it as "We won't make the playoffs unless something changes". Who knows which it was?

I think people are interpreting it as the former because of Jim's habit of discussing his players problems in the media. Fine, I understand that's a pretty powerful argument, but even at that he was assessing the team, not trying to blow smoke up Larry's butt. At that point, you don't color your perceptions with rose-colored glasses, you say what you believe.

And, again, I don't think he was that far from being right. Charlotte doesn't run into problems and we're outside looking in for another year.

BillS
04-07-2011, 03:03 PM
But again I invite both you & Uncle Buck to join my in laying down our arms of the eternal Jim O'Brien is the devil debate and let us join together in at the very least a celebratory banana dance to our beloved Pacers making the playoffs.

:dance::dance::dance:

Or would you have preferred we tanked.;)

Overall, well said and fair enough.

I thank your post and join you in <strike>comparing</strike> dancing apples and oranges.

:apple::dorange::apple::dorange::apple::dorange:

Peck
04-07-2011, 03:07 PM
Overall, well said and fair enough.

I thank your post and join you in <strike>comparing</strike> dancing apples and oranges.

:apple::dorange::apple::dorange::apple::dorange:

You always gotta one up me don't ya? Even with the fruit.:-p

Fair enough.

I won't even contest, apples & oranges it is.

:apple::dorange::apple::dorange::apple::dorange:

BillS
04-07-2011, 03:14 PM
You always gotta one up me don't ya? Even with the fruit.:-p

:rotflmao:

:dance::dance::dance::dance:

Since86
04-07-2011, 03:25 PM
Why does the motivation have to be this self-serving and venal? Why is it so difficult to just believe he was making an honest assessment (and one that a majority of people on this board were on the verge of agreeing with)? You can (and do) make the argument that a different style might be what made the difference, but to say that any opposing assessment is the act of someone who knows he sucks and is basely trying to save his job over any other considerations is unfair, no matter what lack of ability you credit JOB with.

You call it motivation? Saying your roster isn't good enough to make the playoffs, a team that was obviously still in the playoff race, is MOTIVATION?

Maybe in Jim's world, but come on. That wasn't motivation. Calling Josh's game against LA "irrelevent" wasn't motivation.

It was a defense to a question about Josh. Plain and simple. I can keep going with more examples, but they've been discussed to death.

Jim showed multiple times that when challenged he becomes defensive. Hell, he did it to Duke when he pressed Jim on Troy and the +/- stat a few seasons ago.

Jim is all about Jim. He cherry picks what he wants, and discredits anything that discredits that thought.

It wasn't motivation, it was Jim simply saving face, like he's always done. I don't know for sure the context, but do I really need to with all the examples of how he's reacted in the past?



He may not have been a good enough coach to make that work, and his system may have been wrong, but he believed it was the right direction to go. That's a far cry from implying that he knew it wasn't going to work and stuck with it anyway.


Him saying that the team isn't good enough to make the playoffs is him saying that they aren't good enoug hto make it work, and he didn't change his system.

Yes, it is exact that. He knew (or atleast thought) it wasn't going to work and continued to do it.




Since I don't agree that if you feel you can't make the playoffs you just throw the season in the air and get "experience" for young players no matter what the cost, then yes, I guess I am.

I DO agree that there were minutes that could have been used for young players, that JOB relied on players who weren't performing the way he somehow thought they could, and that he could not or would not adjust to the realities of what took place on the floor. I agree that his faith in his offensive system was in many ways misplaced.

Wow, totally mischaracterizing what I said. I said give them as many minutes as they can handle, which is about the number of minutes they are currently getting now.

I did not say give them 30mins and let them sink or swim. Coach Vogel is doing exactly what most of us had been calling for, and is exactly what I would have expected Jim to do.

Instead he went from giving players, like Tyler, DNP-CD to starting in a matter of days. Again I can go on with multiple examples.





I don't argue that JOB wasn't a flawed - or even extremely flawed - coach. I agree that those flaws held the team back and led to him losing them completely.

I argue that there was not some clear-cut "in situation X you ALWAYS do Y and he was not smart enough to do so" answer, especially since I disagree with a lot of the Y answers people propose here. I especially argue against any answer that smacks of "he KNEW what was happening and chose to selfishly try to save his job above all else".

Where have I ever said you have to do X when situation Y arises?

I never said that, and never will.

I said that if you don't think you're good enough to make the playoffs, then you should start building for the future. I stand by that statement.

Josh should have been in the rotation last year, instead of watching Troy Murphy get 30+mins. That's all I've said, and that's all I've meant by it.



But that's all beside the point of the discussion I was having here. The point was that even though I agree Vogel was a better choice to finish the season than JOB (read that again, please, and keep it in mind), I believe there were circumstances beyond just his coaching that led to us getting a playoff spot. After all, we missed a playoff spot in 2008 going 11-5 down the stretch and winning the same number of games as we have so far (and most people have us chalked up for losses the last 3 so the record may very well end up the same). None of this stuff happens in a vacuum.

You're right, none of that happens in a vaccum.

But if you don't think you will make the playoffs, then you won't. How freaking stupid is it to work towards a goal that you think is unattainable?

Especially when the goal is certainly realistic, and when it should be a goal
that you're shooting for.

That's an unacceptable opinion whether it's from the coach or a player when you're in the middle of a playoff hunt.

If they were NJ or some team that had absolutely zero shot, then okay, I can live with living in reality.

But obviously the thought that they aren't good enough to make the playoffs wasn't reality, because the Pacers did the exact opposite.

It's a defeatest attitude, and it's an attitude that has no place to be thought and most certainly not said, while you're fighting for a playoff spot.

It's stupid, it's immature, it's unacceptable. Period.

EDIT: Like I said, you're defending him for making the statement.

You're right, nothing happens in a vaccum which is why it's a dumb statement to make.

Jim didn't know all the variables that could happen. So why in the f-ing world would you quit, and yes I mean QUIT, when there is still a chance?

Him saying that the Pacers can't or won't make the playoffs was dumb, and it's undefendable.

It was the wrong attitude then, and it certainly has been proven to be a false statement. Defending that attitude is shocking, especially the day after the Pacers clinched.

Peck
04-07-2011, 03:29 PM
You call it motivation? Saying your roster isn't good enough to make the playoffs, a team that was obviously still in the playoff race, is MOTIVATION?

Maybe in Jim's world, but come on. That wasn't motivation. Calling Josh's game against LA "irrelevent" wasn't motivation.

It was a defense to a question about Josh. Plain and simple. I can keep going with more examples, but they've been discussed to death.

Jim showed multiple times that when challenged he becomes defensive. Hell, he did it to Duke when he pressed Jim on Troy and the +/- stat a few seasons ago.

Jim is all about Jim. He cherry picks what he wants, and discredits anything that discredits that thought.

It wasn't motivation, it was Jim simply saving face, like he's always done. I don't know for sure the context, but do I really need to with all the examples of how he's reacted in the past?




Him saying that the team isn't good enough to make the playoffs is him saying that they aren't good enoug hto make it work, and he didn't change his system.

Yes, it is exact that. He knew (or atleast thought) it wasn't going to work and continued to do it.




Wow, totally mischaracterizing what I said. I said give them as many minutes as they can handle, which is about the number of minutes they are currently getting now.

I did not say give them 30mins and let them sink or swim. Coach Vogel is doing exactly what most of us had been calling for, and is exactly what I would have expected Jim to do.

Instead he went from giving players, like Tyler, DNP-CD to starting in a matter of days. Again I can go on with multiple examples.





Where have I ever said you have to do X when situation Y arises?

I never said that, and never will.

I said that if you don't think you're good enough to make the playoffs, then you should start building for the future. I stand by that statement.

Josh should have been in the rotation last year, instead of watching Troy Murphy get 30+mins. That's all I've said, and that's all I've meant by it.



You're right, none of that happens in a vaccum.

But if you don't think you will make the playoffs, then you won't. How freaking stupid is it to work towards a goal that you think is unattainable?

Especially when the goal is certainly realistic, and when it should be a goal
that you're shooting for.

That's an unacceptable opinion whether it's from the coach or a player when you're in the middle of a playoff hunt.

If they were NJ or some team that had absolutely zero shot, then okay, I can live with living in reality.

But obviously the thought that they aren't good enough to make the playoffs wasn't reality, because the Pacers did the exact opposite.

It's a defeatest attitude, and it's an attitude that has no place to be thought and most certainly not said, while you're fighting for a playoff spot.

It's stupid, it's immature, it's unacceptable. Period.

While you and I share the same opinion of Jim and I won't dispute anything you are saying (I'm sure Bill will but that is up to him) I do want you to join with both BillS & myself for a moment of laying down our arms and rejoicing. I get where your coming from, but today we all need to celebrate.

Join me in the dance.

:bdance::bdance::bdance::dancers:

Unclebuck
04-07-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm not joining any of you in the dance

Since86
04-07-2011, 03:35 PM
I don't know if I can get over him saying that Jim was trying to give the team motivation. That's just......I don't know exactly.

I respect Bill, and I respect his opinion, but that's just crazy. I feel like I missed the memo that it's opposite day or something.

Peck
04-07-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm not joining any of you in the dance

hater.:tongue:

Peck
04-07-2011, 03:38 PM
I don't know if I can get over him saying that Jim was trying to give the team motivation. That's just......I don't know exactly.

I respect Bill, and I respect his opinion, but that's just crazy. I feel like I missed the memo that it's opposite day or something.

All well and good. Now dance damn you dance.....:)

:dance::dance::dance:

Since86
04-07-2011, 03:40 PM
:dancingba

Peck
04-07-2011, 03:44 PM
:dancingba

Gotta love some dancing Bavetta.

McKeyFan
04-07-2011, 03:48 PM
(which also happens to be winning but I digress)
Please stick to relevant topics.

duke dynamite
04-07-2011, 04:12 PM
I'm not joining any of you in the dance


ALL OBEY DANCING FROOT AND CHEER THE PACERS!

:pineapple:carrot::carrot::pineapple:pineapple
:cucumber::rock::cucumber::mango::dorange::apple: :apple::apple: :dorange::dorange::dorange: :apple::dance::dance: :carrot::rock::pineapple :carrot::mango::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance: :dance::dance:
:pineapple:carrot::mango::cucumber::rock::mango: :pineapple :dorange::dorange::apple::apple: :bananadan :bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroovy:





:boomer:

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 04:14 PM
This page makes me smile. I've missed this PD.

BillS
04-07-2011, 04:15 PM
I don't know if I can get over him saying that Jim was trying to give the team motivation. That's just......I don't know exactly.

I respect Bill, and I respect his opinion, but that's just crazy. I feel like I missed the memo that it's opposite day or something.

That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about his personal motivation, as in his personal reason for saying what he said to his boss. Motivation means other things besides trying to instill a feeling in others.

Peck
04-07-2011, 04:19 PM
This page makes me smile. I've missed this PD.

You know......I'm pretty sure I haven't seen either a dancing fruit or smilie from you in celebration of the playoffs.

To use and old Blazing Saddles quote "Give the governer a harrumph"

Since86
04-07-2011, 04:19 PM
I still stick by my point, though.

Jim defends Jim at all costs.

His attitude towards Duke when pressed on the +/- and his answer about Josh's game being "irrelevent" support it.

Regardless of his personal motivation, it was a dumb assessment then, and most certainly now.

duke dynamite
04-07-2011, 04:21 PM
I still stick by my point, though.

Jim defends Jim at all costs.

His attitude towards Duke when pressed on the +/- and his answer about Josh's game being "irrelevent" support it.

Regardless of his personal motivation, it was a dumb assessment then, and most certainly now.
That was a fun day.

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 04:21 PM
:dj:
:dance::champagne:pepper::dance2::alcohol: :cucumber: :mango::carrot::rock::borg::dorange:
:dancingba:bdance::dance3::kravitz::cheering: :fireworks::dancingsager::thisisfun:
:sparta:

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 04:25 PM
I fully embrace our dancing fruit overlords.

tfarks
04-07-2011, 04:27 PM
:rockon2::rockon2::rockon2::rockon2::rockon2:

:rock::rock::rock::trophy::rock::rock::rock:

duke dynamite
04-07-2011, 04:28 PM
I fully embrace our dancing fruit overlords.
This is Kent Brockman, signing out.

Peck
04-07-2011, 04:33 PM
:rockon2::rockon2::rockon2::rockon2::rockon2:

:rock::rock::rock::trophy::rock::rock::rock:

Sweet, did you notice he slipped in a title trophy in his dance? Now I feel ashamed and not up to par.

I salute you sir for stepping this up to another level.:buddies:

flox
04-07-2011, 04:35 PM
I want you Uncle Buck & you BillS to get on here right now and type the words that you believe that Jim O'Brien would have had the same or better record than what Frank Vogel did over the same exact period of time vs. the same schedule. No qualifiers, no if's or butt's or anything else. If you honestly believe that Jim would have ended the season winning the same number of games due to strength of schedule then shout it out.



Jim O'Brien would have not only given us a playoff birth, he would have probably challenged for a seed better than 8th. I'm not afraid to say it. I know this wasn't directed at me but I feel that if anyone was going to step up to this, I was. That SoS was a joke.

Out of talent this is not a playoff roster and I still don't believe that this is a playoff team in most other seasons in the NBA.

With that said:
:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance: :pepper: :pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper: :boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer: :boomer::boomer:

Trophy
04-07-2011, 04:36 PM
GO PACERS!!!!!!!!!

WE'RE BACK BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:apple: :mango: :carrot: :dance: :cucumber: :pepper:!!!!!

Peck
04-07-2011, 04:39 PM
Jim O'Brien would have not only given us a playoff birth, he would have probably challenged for a seed better than 8th. I'm not afraid to say it. I know this wasn't directed at me but I feel that if anyone was going to step up to this, I was. That SoS was a joke.

Out of talent this is not a playoff roster and I still don't believe that this is a playoff team in most other seasons in the NBA.

With that said:
:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance: :pepper: :pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper: :boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer: :boomer::boomer:

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

I'm not going to be baited. Keep those flags of dissention flying and never trust anyone over 30. (cool Pacer points to anyone who can tell me what movie that is from).

God love you Flox, on a day like today you are like an old cold war general from the Soviet Union after the fall of communism.

Let us join together and shout it out.

The Pacers are playoff bound!!!!!!!

:boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer:

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 04:40 PM
Reading Flox's posts right now are like driving through a state in the south and seeing someone with a bumper sticker that says "The South will Rise Again!" ;)

Trophy
04-07-2011, 04:46 PM
I love the Pacers.com front page.

Playoffs 2011: We're back!

Passion. Pride. Pacers. Playoffs!

http://i55.tinypic.com/2l8det5.jpg

flox
04-07-2011, 04:46 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

I'm not going to be baited. Keep those flags of dissention flying and never trust anyone over 30. (cool Pacer points to anyone who can tell me what movie that is from).

God love you Flox, on a day like today you are like an old cold war general from the Soviet Union after the fall of communism.

Let us join together and shout it out.

The Pacers are playoff bound!!!!!!!

:boomer::boomer::boomer::boomer:

GO PACERS GO!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::gopacers::gopacers: :boomer::boomer::boomer::montieth::xpacers:

Peck
04-07-2011, 04:47 PM
I love the Pacers.com front page.

Playoffs 2011: We're back!

Passion. Pride. Pacers. Playoffs!

http://i55.tinypic.com/2l8det5.jpg

The three P's have become four!!!!!

flox
04-07-2011, 04:48 PM
That's pretty nice. Almost as if they had that planned out.

BringJackBack
04-07-2011, 04:48 PM
:dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies:
:gopacers::gopacers::gopacers::rockon::rockon: :rockon::rockon::rockon::pineapple:pineapple :pineapple:pineapple:pineapple:pineapple:pineapple :pineapple:pineapple:pineapple:carrot::carrot: :carrot::carrot::carrot::carrot::carrot::carrot: :carrot::carrot::mango::mango::mango::mango: :mango: :cucumber: :cucumber::cucumber::cucumber::cucumber::cucumber: :cucumber::cucumber::cucumber::rock::rock::rock: :rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::apple::apple: :apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple: :apple::dorange::dorange::dorange::dorange: :dorange: :dorange::dorange::dorange::dorange:


GO PACERS! PLAYOFF BOUND! 4 P'S!

Trader Joe
04-07-2011, 04:51 PM
That's pretty nice. Almost as if they had that planned out.

:idea:

Trophy
04-07-2011, 04:55 PM
When there's this much dancing fruit on PD, you know something great has happened.

:dance: :mango: :pepper: :carrot: :apple: :cucumber:

Had to post it one more time.

I haven't been this proud of this team for a really long time.

BPump33
04-07-2011, 05:03 PM
Wait, I want to dance.

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

:pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper::pepper:

:mango::mango::mango::mango::mango::mango::mango:

:dance3::dance3::dance3::dance3::dance3::dance3:

And in honor of Slick, :boombaby:

McKeyFan
04-07-2011, 05:47 PM
Reading Flox's posts right now are like driving through a state in the south and seeing someone with a bumper sticker that says "The South will Rise Again!" ;)

Well, it will.

:happydanc


But I get your point.

TinManJoshua
04-07-2011, 05:47 PM
:dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies: :dance: :buddies:
:gopacers::gopacers::gopacers::rockon::rockon: :rockon::rockon::rockon::pineapple:pineapple :pineapple:pineapple:pineapple:pineapple:pineapple :pineapple:pineapple:pineapple:carrot::carrot: :carrot::carrot::carrot::carrot::carrot::carrot: :carrot::carrot::mango::mango::mango::mango: :mango: :cucumber: :cucumber::cucumber::cucumber::cucumber::cucumber: :cucumber::cucumber::cucumber::rock::rock::rock: :rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::apple::apple: :apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple: :apple::dorange::dorange::dorange::dorange: :dorange: :dorange::dorange::dorange::dorange:


GO PACERS! PLAYOFF BOUND! 4 P'S!

No Comic Sans! Bad! Bad Comic Sans!



:rockon2: :rockon2: :rockon2: :rockon2: :rockon2: :rockon2: :rockon2:

:gopacers::boomer::kravitz:

pwee31
04-07-2011, 06:29 PM
:dance::carrot::pineapple:mango::cucumber::rock::a pple::dorange::ohyeah::onozomg::cheer2::mjpopcorn: :xpacers:

Peck
04-08-2011, 04:32 PM
No dancing fruit love from El Pacero.:(:(

:lazy:

El Pacero
04-08-2011, 05:16 PM
No dancing fruit love from El Pacero.:(:(

:lazy:

Well, now we got past the JOB vs Vogel talk.... it's time to PACERS PARTY!!!

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

Peck
04-08-2011, 10:53 PM
Well, now we got past the JOB vs Vogel talk.... it's time to PACERS PARTY!!!

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

My life is now complete.:happydanc:happydanc

Kemo
04-08-2011, 11:47 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

I'm not going to be baited. Keep those flags of dissention flying and never trust anyone over 30. (cool Pacer points to anyone who can tell me what movie that is from).




Wild in the Streets?

Peck
04-09-2011, 01:08 AM
Wild in the Streets?

Nope & I can't believe nobody other than you even tried.

This is from Planet of the Apes (the original)

AesopRockOn
04-09-2011, 04:49 AM
It's Playoffs, Playoffs. Everybody's looking forward...

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Rebecca-Black-drive.gif

El Pacero
04-09-2011, 06:56 AM
It's Playoffs, Playoffs. Everybody's looking forward...

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Rebecca-Black-drive.gif

Dude that is crazy. I stayed up all night Thursday night writing a Playoffs parody to that song. Anyone want to shoot a music video?

ZepZach
04-09-2011, 07:04 AM
Dude that is crazy. I stayed up all night Thursday night writing a Playoffs parody to that song. Anyone want to shoot a music video?

I want this to happen.

Peck
04-09-2011, 01:36 PM
Dude that is crazy. I stayed up all night Thursday night writing a Playoffs parody to that song. Anyone want to shoot a music video?

Ok my old age is showing but I'll go ahead and ask.

Who the heck is this and what song is it?

Tom White
04-09-2011, 01:53 PM
I do not want to get into JOB or Frank.

I just want to make a general comment about your general point. You are 100% correct if you are comparing a full season coached by coach A vs a full season coached by coach B in that case the schedules even out.

However what you are saying is incorrect if you are comparing coach A who coached the first 44 games to coach B who coached the final 38 games. Yes one of the things anyone should look at is strength of schedule - especially when there is a large difference.

At the very least strength of schedule should not be out of bounds as a means to compare the results of the two coaches. I know one thing if Vogel had coached the tougher part of the schedule and had gone 19-16 it would be brought up in this forum as a major feather in his cap. I know I would would think more highly of the job Frank did if he was able to go 19-16 during December and January of this season.

OK, how about you taking on a bit of an assignment. At the of the season, total up the won-loss records of all the Pacer opponents during JOB's part of the season, and the same for Vogel's part of the season? Therein may live the proof of the relative strength of schedule each faced. Of course making it that simple would negate any home court factors, but I think it would be an interesting chore for you.

O'Braindead
04-09-2011, 03:34 PM
I do not know where to put this so I suppose that I will put it here:

http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011/04/08/slick110408mpg-1642611/index.html

This was from last night, but I wanted to point out that Slick has earned icon status from me.. A certain intrigue that I cannot even begin to try to explain or elaborate on. Only so many guys have that that I can remember. MLK, John Wooden, Bill Russell, JFK, Reagan, my father. It's so strange but Slick is in that group of "Icon" guys for me. I'd probably say that it is because he is the rock of our franchise. Even more neat is that I talk to him about every home game.

"Always ready for the Playoffs. That's the fun part of it."

Peck
04-09-2011, 03:40 PM
I do not know where to put this so I suppose that I will put it here:

http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011/04/08/slick110408mpg-1642611/index.html

This was from last night, but I wanted to point out that Slick has earned icon status from me.. A certain intrigue that I cannot even begin to try to explain or elaborate on. Only so many guys have that that I can remember. MLK, John Wooden, Bill Russell, JFK, Reagan, my father. It's so strange but Slick is in that group of "Icon" guys for me. I'd probably say that it is because he is the rock of our franchise. Even more neat is that I talk to him about every home game.

"Always ready for the Playoffs. That's the fun part of it."

No way brother.

Don't take this wrong but there is no way I'm letting this post go to the bottom of this thread.

This deserves it's own thread so everyone can see.