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View Full Version : readjusting lineups (should we bring back the goon squad?)



imbtyler
04-05-2011, 02:37 PM
It seems the problem we're having with the lineups is too many conflicting playing styles. PG and Hans don't work well in the starting lineup with DC, DG and Roy. All five players have a need/urge to be THE scorer, whereas there are other players in the roster (Josh, Rush, Dun) have somewhat of a passing instinct, which is absolutely necessary to the scorer-passer ratio.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but if Dun and Josh were starting at the 2 and 4 spots, respectively, I think it would allow for a less selfish style of play. Putting PG and Hans back into the goon squad would let them utilize their own scoring against less intense defenders (or rather, non-starters). Also, they wouldn't have to compete against Foster/AJ (usually) as scoring options, and adding in Rush or Lance (not Posey) at the 2-guard brings another facet of scoring and mid-level passing ability and movement to capitalize on the other scorers.

So I guess what I'm basically saying is, I think we should bring back the almost-original goon squad. Except we've got no room to make adjustments this late and close to the playoffs. Would we be better off anyway?

Infinite MAN_force
04-05-2011, 02:42 PM
This thought had crossed my mind. Someone can look up the numbers, but I thought someone had pointed out the Collison/Dun/Granger/Mcbob/Hibbert lineup had been our most successful this year.

Mcroberts has great chemistry with both Dunleavy and Hibbert, so it makes some sense. I would still play Tyler big minutes and possibly finish games (depending on who has it going)

BRushWithDeath
04-05-2011, 02:54 PM
This thought had crossed my mind. Someone can look up the numbers, but I thought someone had pointed out the Collison/Dun/Granger/Mcbob/Hibbert lineup had been our most successful this year.


Not just our best lineup. Our best lineup by a mile.

It is the 6th most effective 5 man group in the league behind two groups of Lakers, a group of Rockets, a group of Celtics, and a group of Spurs.

No other Pacers group is even close to the top 50.

kester99
04-05-2011, 02:55 PM
I'm not against the change, even at this late date, since these line-ups being discussed are very familiar to our guys anyway.

I would add Dahntay into the 2nd unit before Rush. Rush becomes 11th man.

A link to the various units' minutes played and results:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2010-2011&team=IND&sortnumber=3&sortorder=DESC

Basically, these have been our best three line-ups that have played significant minutes, and don't involve putting Danny or Roy in the 2nd unit:

1. Collison, Darren - Dunleavy, Mike - Granger, Danny - McRoberts, Josh - Hibbert, Roy
2. Collison, Darren - Dunleavy, Mike - Granger, Danny - Hansbrough, Tyler - Hibbert, Roy
3. Price, A.J. - Jones, Dahntay - George, Paul - Hansbrough, Tyler - Foster, Jeff

The combo of AJ, Brandon, Paul G, Foster, and Tyler has only played nine minutes, so it's basically untested, to an extent. Dahntay's a spark plug for the 2nd unit, anyway. So...Brandon to 11th man.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that unit 2 as the starters tomorrow...keeping Tyler in and adding Dunleavy. It'll be interesting to see if Frank stands pat or makes a change, and what kind of change if he makes one.

Sookie
04-05-2011, 03:01 PM
I wouldn't suggest moving lineups around anymore.

What I would suggest is two things..

Vogel has an O'brien like quality, where he subs guys in based on a pattern, not necessarily based on need. (Most system based coaches do this)

And this is fine. Because usually he adjusts to the end of the game. However, I think he needs to adjust sooner. If DC is struggling...bring AJ in at the five minute mark, instead of waiting until the two minute mark or start of the second quarter. (Or shorten AJ's time if he's struggling..) IF Hans isn't making any shots..bring in Josh earlier. And vice versa..make the adjustments needed quicker..not just at the end of the game. To me, that would stop the hole.

And second..I think if we are in a hole, that Vogel should try the "goon squad" to see if they can get back into it. Put Aj, Dahntay, PG, Hans, and FOster in at the same time. They don't have to be our second unit in order to all play together. If we're in a hole, play them together and see if they can get something done.

Trophy
04-05-2011, 03:04 PM
Not only was that starting group incredibly effective, but the bench/"Goon Squad" was too.

I think it's pretty obvious that Paul is not ready to be a consistent starter and Tyler just doesn't complement Roy like Josh does mainly on the offensive end.

I feel like those lineups/rotations will give us the best chance to be competitive in the playoffs and win at least a game.

Starting our best players isn't always going to get the job done because a lot of players depend too much on themselves to do more which can ruin the chemistry.

Infinite MAN_force
04-05-2011, 03:05 PM
Not just our best lineup. Our best lineup by a mile.

It is the 6th most effective 5 man group in the league behind two groups of Lakers, a group of Rockets, a group of Celtics, and a group of Spurs.

No other Pacers group is even close to the top 50.

****. Do it yesterday then. Or at least as soon as Dunleavy can handle the minutes.

Hard to argue with that stat.

Mackey_Rose
04-05-2011, 03:09 PM
I wouldn't suggest moving lineups around anymore.

Why? Afraid to damage the non-existent chemistry in the starting lineup?

Sookie
04-05-2011, 03:22 PM
Why? Afraid to damage the non-existent chemistry in the starting lineup?

Because it's a young team and they need consistency.

This starting lineup has won quite a few important games. And as I said, if Vogel makes the simple adjustment of

1. Bringing guys in quicker if something isn't working (which, he has been reluctant to do, although has gotten better)

and

2. As I suggested..if we do get ourselves in a hole. Try using the Goon squad to dig us out of it.

You've said it yourself, that the problem isn't with the shooting guard and power forward position. And we aren't going to start Price over Collison, or Foster over Hibbert..or Rush/Dun/Dahntay over Granger. So there's no point in messing with the psyche of the team with the other guys. Particularly since now the second unit is starting to have some good chemistry, so at least we have one unit with good chemistry..no need to mess it up again.

PaceBalls
04-05-2011, 03:24 PM
Absolutely bring back the good squad. We should have Dun and Josh starting.

Mackey_Rose
04-05-2011, 03:54 PM
You've said it yourself, that the problem isn't with the shooting guard and power forward position.

That is true. Those positions are not the problem, but with the current personnel manning those positions, they do contribute to the poor chemistry of the starting unit.

Coincidentally (or maybe not so much so) they also were driving forces behind the emergence of the unfortunately named "Good Squad."

Eleazar
04-05-2011, 03:58 PM
At this point in the game I would rather do what Sookie is suggesting.

Sookie
04-05-2011, 04:18 PM
That is true. Those positions are not the problem, but with the current personnel manning those positions, they do contribute to the poor chemistry of the starting unit.

Coincidentally (or maybe not so much so) they also were driving forces behind the emergence of the unfortunately named "Good Squad."

I don't know, I think Hans helps Roy in a way that Josh doesn't. Josh feeds him the ball in the right places and such. But with Hans on the floor, the other team has to pick who they defend. That helps Roy a lot.

And with PG, I'd rather we wait and bring back Dun slowly, and not mess with PG's head. (And PG hasn't been a problem in the starting lineup.)

And as I've said, we've won some really important games and games against some really good teams with this starting lineup.

Unclebuck
04-05-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't really care, but we should start using the lineup now that we plan to use and are OK using against the Bulls in the first round of the playoffs.

Can Dunleavy guard the Bulls starting shooting guard? Who is their starting shooting guard? I guess it is Bogans. Mike can start against him, so I would move Mike into the starting lineup now assuming he is OK physically.

Is Josh or Tyler a better defender against Boozer - or really who can better defend Boozer in the pick and rolls because that is where Boozer gets the majority of his offense.

JEM
04-05-2011, 04:53 PM
Should stay as is.

xIndyFan
04-05-2011, 05:29 PM
i don't think it is time to change lineups.

the starting lineup is not the best lineup right now, i get that. and agree. but the starting lineup is the kids. the guys the pacers will be using going forward with whatever additions get done this summer. these guys need to learn to play together nicely. learn where each other is on the court. learn how to maximize their collective strengths etc. that process is starting now.

plus the front office needs to see if there are guys that cannot work together. if so, then trades need to be made. i do not think that the case myself. i think these guys can learn to work together. but they still need some time to figure it out. maybe that time is now and maybe next season. but the starters are the core guys going forward and need to get their collective :censored: together.

on the subject of lineups, i like the group that played the passing game late in the NOH game. the old guys + AJ. thought it worked well together. would like to see more of it. and the collison + foster + 3 shooters lineup. like to see more of it also.

BringJackBack
04-05-2011, 06:00 PM
I really think that this is a case of knee-jerk/overreacting. We have, I think, 5 games to go in the season and the eighth spot has our name on it. We currently have a team with Danny, Roy, Collison, and 12 other guys that can be moved, switched around, or whatever and it won't make a difference in the win/loss column.

The only thing that I don't want to see are the vets (Besides Jeff or Mike because they are productive) dominating the playing time. George, Josh, Tyler, DC, AJ, Roy, and even Lance are getting that time and a couple of months ago a lot of those guys weren't.

Ultimately, DC/Mike/Granger/Josh/Hibbert won't win us or lose us any more games than DC/George/Granger/Tyler/Hibbert will.

CableKC
04-05-2011, 07:29 PM
If the original lineup of DC/Dunleavy/Granger/McBob/Hibbert truly is the best offensive lineup that we have....then I'm okay with seeing the return of the Goon Squad.

I recall several times where the Goon Squad was able to clamp down defensively against the other Team while either regaining a lead and/or even extending a lead significantly.

LucasRL13
04-05-2011, 07:31 PM
Charlotte gonna lose this game

CableKC
04-05-2011, 07:41 PM
Can Dunleavy guard the Bulls starting shooting guard? Who is their starting shooting guard? I guess it is Bogans. Mike can start against him, so I would move Mike into the starting lineup now assuming he is OK physically.
I think the SG rotation for the Bulls is made up of some combination of Kieth Bogans, Kyle Korver, CJ Watson and Ronnie Brewer ).

CJ Watson and Keith Bogans are the type of SGs that can easily put up a lot of points in a short amount of time. If Dunleavy is struggling against either of them....then bring in BRush.


Is Josh or Tyler a better defender against Boozer - or really who can better defend Boozer in the pick and rolls because that is where Boozer gets the majority of his offense.
That is the concern....which is the best Pick and Roll Defender that we have?

Although it's near impossible to defend against DRose, I'm as concerned about how to properly defend the frontcourt of Boozer and Taj Gibson.

Mackey_Rose
04-06-2011, 09:07 AM
I really think that this is a case of knee-jerk/overreacting.

It really isn't. The knee-jerk overreaction was the last time we changed the lineup. This discussion is just a correction of that mistake.

I'm not going to discuss the shooting guard position, because Dunleavy's injury forced that change. He probably never would have lost his spot. I will discuss the power forward position however.

I think it is fair to say that if the play of Roy Hibbert isn't the most important factor relative to the team's success, it is certainly very close to the top of the list.

Roy plays better when he's paired with Josh in the front court, than he does with Tyler. He did under O'Brien, and he has under Vogel.

Under O'Brien:

With Josh starting, the Pacers were 14-18 (.438)
With Josh and Roy starting, the Pacers were 14-17 (.451)

During those games with both Josh and Roy in the lineup, and O'Brien as coach, Roy averaged:

13.7 points per game
7.6 rebounds per game
2.4 assists per game
1.6 blocks per game

With Tyler starting, the Pacers were 2-8 (.200)
With Tyler and Roy starting, the Pacers were 2-7 (.222)

During those games with both Tyler and Roy in the lineup, and O'Brien as coach, Roy averaged:

6.8 points per game
6.5 rebounds per game
1.1 assists per game
1.1 blocks per game

Under Vogel:

With Josh starting, the Pacers were 10-9 (.526)

During those games with both Josh and Roy in the lineup, and Vogel as coach, Roy averaged:

14.9 points per game
7.7 rebounds per game
1.8 assists per game
1.9 blocks per game

With Tyler starting, the Pacers are 8-7 (.533)

During those games with both Tyler and Roy in the lineup, and Vogel as coach, Roy averaged:

11.4 points per game
6.7 rebounds per game
1.7 assists per game
1.9 blocks per game

There are several other factors that contribute to these numbers, both from Roy and in the win-loss ratio. I'm not saying that Josh is better than Tyler, but I will say that it makes the team better to have Josh playing with Roy, because it makes Roy better.

vnzla81
04-06-2011, 09:32 AM
Again, like I said in another thread, you can switch SG's and PF's all you want but as long as your "small 3" (Danny,DC and Roy) keep taking games off nothing is going to change.

15th parallel
04-06-2011, 10:24 AM
I am not against lineup change since we are yet to see what really is the most effective starting lineup.

But I would suggest, as an immediate/trial solution, is to remove the offensive anchor to Hibbert at the starting lineup. When he's making shots, we're hard to stop. But when he's missing a lot, which happens most of the time, we're losing so bad. We have set the offense around Danny, or to move it to Tyler, or run cuts and screens for George. Let Hibbert and Collison facilitate. You see Hibbert become more effective wqhen Tyler attracts double teams. Collison's PnP is also effective around Tyler. And George can be effective when he's moving around rather that being passive around the corner.

Hicks
04-06-2011, 10:56 AM
Again, like I said in another thread, you can switch SG's and PF's all you want but as long as your "small 3" (Danny,DC and Roy) keep taking games off nothing is going to change.

This it ultimately what matters. I've come around again to preferring Josh be with the starters, but I still don't believe that would make a whole lot of difference right now.

We'll still feed the post, where Roy will or won't struggle in the low block, Danny's still going to play his offense the same way, and so will DC. What would likely change most with Josh in there is that those three might get an extra clean look on occasion, which is fine and good, but it still comes down to those three hitting their shots. Until Roy and DC become more consistent, we're still going to be rocky.

Mackey_Rose
04-06-2011, 12:33 PM
Until Roy and DC become more consistent, we're still going to be rocky.

What about Granger? He isn't exactly a model of consistency.

His efficiency has also taken a turn for the worse since Tyler's inclusion in the starting lineup.

NuffSaid
04-06-2011, 12:45 PM
This thought had crossed my mind. Someone can look up the numbers, but I thought someone had pointed out the Collison/Dun/Granger/Mcbob/Hibbert lineup had been our most successful this year.

Mcroberts has great chemistry with both Dunleavy and Hibbert, so it makes some sense. I would still play Tyler big minutes and possibly finish games (depending on who has it going)

According to the website, 82games.com, you are correct! Collison, Dunleavy, Granger, McRoberts and Hibbert has been our best starting lineup with a record of 21-10 (67.7%). Our best reserve squad that doesn't include any of the starters listed above has been Price, Danhtey, Paul George, Hansborough and Foster scoring at .467, +3 in turnovers and +22 FTA and 63% rebounding, 12.5% higher than our best starting unit!

Despite these statistics, I wouldn't change the starting lineup again just yet. Since the adjustments Vogel has made has proven to be somewhat effective and especially since Dunleavy recently returned from his thumb injury, I'd say it's too much of a risk making any lineup changes right now short of another injury. All Vogel has to do is shorten his rotation times as has been suggested and they should be fine. Once the regular season ends, I'd go back to what had been working w/Dunleavy and Jmac starting and Hans and PG coming off the bench. I'd also get Dahntey's minutes back up. Since Vogel took over as head coach, Dahntey's game has really impressed me.