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View Full Version : Pacers last 9 losses have all been by double figures



Unclebuck
04-04-2011, 08:41 AM
Do we care?

Does it tell us anything about this team?

Does that mean the team isn't as good as their record would indicate lately.

What that also means is the Pacers have been winning all the close games. So have they learned how to win the close games.

Is this anything to be concerned about

I'm just the messenger and just asking questions. Don't jump to any conclusions


http://www.indystar.com/article/20110404/SPORTS04/104040327/1062/SPORTS04/Pacers-fall-flat-New-Orleans-keep-their-playoff-lead (http://www.indystar.com/article/20110404/SPORTS04/104040327/1062/SPORTS04/Pacers-fall-flat-New-Orleans-keep-their-playoff-lead)

vnzla81
04-04-2011, 08:48 AM
This means that when the Pacers are bad they are horrible and when the Pacers are good they can beat anybody, this normally happens when you play young guys, we just never experience this because the old coach wouldn't play young guys.

Justin Tyme
04-04-2011, 09:13 AM
It comes down to which team comes to play each night.... Dr. Jeckyll or Mr. Hyde.

Whoever is in charge this off season has a job on their hands getting the right players to make this team click.

This team is in a good position now for an ownership change as I addressed numerous times earlier in the season.

BillS
04-04-2011, 09:34 AM
As Longfellow put it:

"There was a little girl, who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead,
And when she was good, she was very, very good,
But when she was bad she was horrid."

mboyle1313
04-04-2011, 10:27 AM
All,

Mr. Wells has corrected me on this matter. The correct number is 11, not 9, though the point is the same.

This group, while not without talent, is bereft of a hard core carnivore in a position of influence. This person can not be a coach; he must be a player. Think Jordan, Stockton, Duncan, Iverson, et al. I'm not speaking from the standpoint of talent, as all of the aforementioned are considerably more talented than anyone currently populating the roster of The Blue and Yellow Menace. I am referring to a desire to compete and win that can actually be unhealthy if not checked.

Virtually all teams in the Pacers position lack such a presence. It is one of the things that separates the good teams from the teams that wish they were good.

MJB

dohman
04-04-2011, 10:37 AM
How many of those games were back to backs though.

It seems we always lose large on a back to back. I didnt get to watch yesterday.

Unclebuck
04-04-2011, 10:39 AM
Yes, what MJB said is the most important factor.

Just to get into it a little more. It seems to me when things start to go bad within a game, they cannot right themselves.

Another stat that back up the point is the Pacers are 4-31 when trailing at halftime. Wow that is unbelievable, I didn't even realize that.

Just for reference the cavs are 7-48, the Wizards are 7-44.

(Who ever said NBA games are decided in the 4th quarter.

Pacers are 4-32 when trailing heading into the 4th quarter.

So if you have a very busy schedule, watch the first half and stop, no reason to watch after halftime

imawhat
04-04-2011, 10:53 AM
It's not surprising to me. All a team has to do is hold serve after the first quarter.

I think it's more surprising that we've won as many games after having to dig out of a 10+ point deficit every game.

We needed to make a change in the starting lineup but we didn't move the right guy.

Mark
04-04-2011, 10:56 AM
Bright side: We're winning close games?!

Marlin
04-04-2011, 10:57 AM
All,

Mr. Wells has corrected me on this matter. The correct number is 11, not 9, though the point is the same.


By my count, you were right saying 9.

Since losing in Dallas 116-108 on March the 4t, the Pacers have lost by double digits @ Houston, vs Philadelphia, @ Minnesota, @ Toronto, @ Boston, @ Memphis, vs Sacramento, @ Detroit and @ New Orleans.

If my brain still supports me, that's nine games.

DemonHunter1105
04-04-2011, 11:13 AM
Well we start a rookie, two 2nd year players(Tyler is more like a rookie), a 3rd year player and Danny...we tend to forget how young we are.

mboyle1313
04-04-2011, 11:24 AM
Marlin,

Turns out nine is accurate. I should have known better than to trust Wells. Nine is still enought to be a franchise record in that department.

MJB

Day-V
04-04-2011, 11:50 AM
Really don't care. I hate loses, no matter if they're by 1 point or 21 points.

But, on the bright side. We're still in the 8th spot with 3 of our 4 remaining games at home. Gotta finish the season out.

Mackey_Rose
04-04-2011, 12:02 PM
All,

Mr. Wells has corrected me on this matter. The correct number is 11, not 9, though the point is the same.

This group, while not without talent, is bereft of a hard core carnivore in a position of influence. This person can not be a coach; he must be a player. Think Jordan, Stockton, Duncan, Iverson, et al. I'm not speaking from the standpoint of talent, as all of the aforementioned are considerably more talented than anyone currently populating the roster of The Blue and Yellow Menace. I am referring to a desire to compete and win that can actually be unhealthy if not checked.

Virtually all teams in the Pacers position lack such a presence. It is one of the things that separates the good teams from the teams that wish they were good.

MJB

That hurts, no question about it. Yesterday was the perfect example of the difference between a good "best player" and Danny Granger.

Chris Paul didn't put up huge numbers (how good is a player when 18 points and 8 assists from a point guard, seems like average statistical output?) but his effect on the game was undeniable. He leads both vocally and by example.

That is what separates Granger from the the elite players in the league. They lead, he is content to follow.

This team suffers from a severe lack of leadership, and until we bring someone in capable of being that kind of personality, we're never going to be the kind of team that can seriously compete in the playoffs.

Dr. Awesome
04-04-2011, 12:35 PM
You know, this obviously worries me to a certain extent, but did anyone see the schedule for March? We played a ridiculous amount of games. Obviously youth plays a factor in that(the inconsistency), but at the same time, our guys had to be worn out.

naptownmenace
04-04-2011, 01:11 PM
As several have pointed out, this team is very young and inexperienced. They haven't had any NBA success and 3 of the starters have played less than 2 seasons. I can't think of any other team in the NBA in playoff position that has less experience in the starting lineup.

A team doesn't win with talent alone. Even the Bulls weren't very good during Michael Jordan's first 3 seasons because they had a lot of young and unproven players. No one would say that they didn't have a player that had enough talent, drive to win, leadership qualities, ect because MJ, even as a Rookie, was one of the best players in the league (ROY, 2nd team All NBA). I think that experience really gets underestimated.

Probably the biggest factor in the Pacers double-digit loses is that they are a terrible road team. Eight of those nine loses were on the road.

CableKC
04-04-2011, 01:18 PM
This will only worry me next season when we have a Long-Term Coach in place and a stronger lineup that will likely include 2 new long-term Starters in the lineup to add to the existing core of young Players that we have.

As Justin Tyme posted....we have young Players...this is to be expected. I don't like it...but that's the likely reason for our "ups and downs".

Major Cold
04-04-2011, 02:49 PM
That is what separates Granger from the the elite players in the league. They lead, he is content to follow.



It is extremely tough to get players that play on the elite level and lead. There are leaders that have little voice because they do not play on an elite level (Jack).

To get both in one player is rare. That is how special Reggie was to this team.

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Marlin,

Turns out nine is accurate. I should have known better than to trust Wells. Nine is still enought to be a franchise record in that department.

MJB
He really needs to lay off the hard liquor. Sad to see his math skills take such a major hit. It does make for more interesting tweets though.

;)

Come on Mikey, step up that game.



This group, while not without talent, is bereft of a hard core carnivore in a position of influence.Not to suck up, but this is probably my favorite line written about the Pacers probably since Bob Collins wrote something. Just the right amount of color and accuracy.


It's funny because Roy is certainly emotional and driven to put in effort, much like Tyler is driven though without the emotional level, but neither has that presence in the heat of battle that suggests an innate knowledge that they simply are the best person on the court in that moment and refuse to be told otherwise.

Finding that in someone who has the talent to back it to at least some degree but who doesn't have the ego problem it can create is really tough. Dare I say Artest had that in him but was so socially awkward to interact with that the effect was partially neutralized, and eventually undermined.


Clearly Danny wants to be that type, as does Roy I think. But I think at gut check time these guys just don't view themselves that way, maybe because they are smart enough to recognize that they aren't the best guy out there.

Perhaps they have too much self-awareness . I certainly think we see that hurt Rush at times.

Trophy
04-04-2011, 03:38 PM
The issue is that this team, if they start a game off trailing by a good amount, they'll shut down.

From last night, specifically the starters didn't have it going in the first quarter and then they shut down.

We need to go out every game and for all the minutes, play like we care and play harder than we started the game off.

A specific player who really effects our win/loss is Roy. When he's playing like a powerful center, we've been pretty much anybody, but if he's fearful like last night and lets the opposing big man have his way in the paint, then it makes it really tough for everyone else.

The Jackson shimmy
04-04-2011, 05:07 PM
Mark-

Yup. Or as Dakich has put it more than once over time, the Pacers
lack a 'killer' (ie, a player who simply hates to lose with every fiber
of his being, will fight tooth and nail to avoid it and wills those around
him on his team to adopt a similar attitude wether they like it or not).

Anthem
04-04-2011, 05:57 PM
I should have known better than to trust Wells.
Epic Win.

Anthem
04-04-2011, 05:58 PM
I beg you people, for the love of all the is good and pleasing, please learn how to spell the word "losses."

"Loses" is a verb.

BillS
04-04-2011, 06:10 PM
I beg you people, for the love of all the is good and pleasing, please learn how to spell the word "losses."

"Loses" is a verb.

Just be glad they aren't spelling it "looses".

D-BONE
04-04-2011, 08:41 PM
Future (Summer) TPTB TBD, find a way to get us a new guy or two that really have the cojones to be the matador, por favor!

BlueNGold
04-04-2011, 10:43 PM
You all see the pattern, right?

Remember the lament of this team "collapsing" in the past? It became like clockwork a couple years ago. That is a sign of a team that the opposition does not respect. Teams used to take it easy on the Pacers the first three quarters, then crank up the pressue. ...and we folded.

Now what is happening? This team plays with more force, effort and energy. Perhaps not the most talented bunch, but they do give good effort. The same teams that knew they could crank it up and wipe us out no longer believe that. They are pressing more because we are more competitive.

IOW, teams are actually trying from the get-go. You can see that simply by watching the games, which are...as a result...more enjoyable to watch than the last few years.

Unclebuck
04-04-2011, 11:00 PM
Now what is happening? This team plays with more force, effort and energy. Perhaps not the most talented bunch, but they do give good effort. The same teams that knew they could crank it up and wipe us out no longer believe that. They are pressing more because we are more competitive.

IOW, teams are actually trying from the get-go. You can see that simply by watching the games, which are...as a result...more enjoyable to watch than the last few years.


I just don't see what you often see, I respect your opinions/theories, but rarely agree.

Pacers last season trailed at halftime in 50 games. This year with only 4 games left they have trailed at halftime 35 times. Seems to me like that indicates teams played us pretty hard from the get go last year.

This years team is better, but I don't see teams playing us harder and I certainly don't think any stats in this thread would prove your point.

Last season and the pacers were 5-43 in games they trailed after 3 quarters. So i think the somewhat prevailing theory that the team collapse in the 4th quarter is largely untrue. The pacers were 25-6 when they led after three which is a good record. only 6 losses when leading after 3 quarters. This season the pacers have already lost 10 games when leading after 3 quarters

BlueNGold
04-04-2011, 11:53 PM
Ok. I guess I agree with you on that first sentence. I don't mind being in the majority....;<)

Last season was one filled with injuries. It's hard to compare last season to anything. In any event, we will have to disagree on the point made. On average, I have no doubt that teams try harder against more talented teams...and backslide against weaker opponents. I think this explains some things (e.g. great teams losing to terrible ones, virtually predictable collapses in the 4th quarter), but you are free to disagree. IMO, this is human nature and happens all the time in sports.

Perhaps what I am seeing is the style difference. When teams are not jacking up threes, there is often more passing, playmaking and interior play. Maybe not all three all the time...but I think there is more effort being expended. Just having Hans on the court 27mpg versus 12mpg has to be taxing on the opposition.

With that said, here is one indication that teams are working harder now:

Josh McRoberts has taken 8 three pointers in the last 34 games. He took 29 in a fraction of that many games in the month of December. Does that make it easier on the opposition or harder? I think it makes things harder because it plays to Josh's strengths. This is one reason I think teams have to try harder to beat us...even if they often accomplish their goal.

naptownmenace
04-05-2011, 10:01 AM
I said it before but I feel like no one really noticed it.

The Pacers play very badly on the road. Eight (8) of those double-digit losses (9) were on the road.

Young teams usually play poorly on the road.

Naptown_Seth
04-05-2011, 08:58 PM
I said it before but I feel like no one really noticed it.

The Pacers play very badly on the road. Eight (8) of those double-digit losses (9) were on the road.

Young teams usually play poorly on the road.
I've noticed too. I've made a few comments here and there where I basically took this as a given at this point, but I think you are right about it seemingly being overlooked in general.

Specifically they'll get slaughtered in the first 2 playoff games, show some resistance in the next two and then probably lose in 5.

Beats the s*** out of no playoffs, no high pick, same old coach, no sign of change which is what we got the last 2 Aprils.



It seems certain per the odds that a few of the kids aren't going to come out the other side on this development plan. It would be remarkable if to a man they all made strong, solid progression. But some should and finally we'll know which is which. The playoffs this year will be a nice step on that path, even if they aren't really that competitive.