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Really?
04-01-2011, 06:53 PM
With the current roster of the Hawks so far failing to reach the upper echelon of the Eastern Conference -- and with their play being uneven throughout this season -- there's been some rumblings roster changes could suit them best heading forward.

And in his chat Friday, ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher wrote about how it could happen.

"I'm told the Hawks will make major changes before the next time we play if they don't make at least a strong second-round showing this year in the playoffs," he wrote.

While Bucher doesn't get into specifics, there's been the suggestion that Josh Smith could be a trade chip, as he has some value around the league and could potentially bring back multiple parts.

Joe Johnson's massive contract would likely make him a tough trade, while Al Horford's recent contract extension this season makes him a candidate to remain with the team if major changes do occur.

Interest anyone... a little Josh Smith could go a long way...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors

imbtyler
04-01-2011, 07:12 PM
I'd love to have Josh Smith with the team. He'd add a few facets that we don't have in others in the PF rotation.

cdash
04-01-2011, 07:15 PM
I have long said that Josh Smith is the prototype PF that you would want next to Roy Hibbert. Again, probably in the minority, I would trade Granger for him.

Eleazar
04-01-2011, 07:32 PM
My only problem with Smith is his contract.

Gamble1
04-01-2011, 07:34 PM
I have long said that Josh Smith is the prototype PF that you would want next to Roy Hibbert. Again, probably in the minority, I would trade Granger for him.
I think the Hawks would want to cut some salary so unless a third team is involved then I can't see a Granger for Hawks trade.

I would give two first round picks and pick between Rush or Djones. I would also do a 1 st and a Hans for him but I know that would set off a fire storm here at PD.


My only problem with Smith is his contract.
A two year contract for his talents isn't bad at all IMO.

cdash
04-01-2011, 07:37 PM
I think the Hawks would want to cut some salary so unless a third team is involved then I can't see a Granger for Hawks trade.

I would give two first round picks and pick between Rush or Djones. I would also do a 1 st and a Hans for him but I know that would set off a fire storm here at PD.

I really don't think two first round picks and Rush/Dahntay would get the job done. If they want to cut salary and don't want Granger then I'd be willing to deal Hansbrough (gasp!), a 1st round pick (or two, heavily protected), and Rush/Dahntay. Who knows what the Hawks are looking for though. It's the Hawks.

Gamble1
04-01-2011, 07:44 PM
I really don't think two first round picks and Rush/Dahntay would get the job done. If they want to cut salary and don't want Granger then I'd be willing to deal Hansbrough (gasp!), a 1st round pick (or two, heavily protected), and Rush/Dahntay. Who knows what the Hawks are looking for though. It's the Hawks.
I think they have to cut salary. I mean next year they have 65 million dedicated to 7 players. They need a wing off the bench to replace Crawford and they would need a pf to replace Smith if he is dealt.

ballism
04-01-2011, 07:52 PM
My master plan to take over the world:

Step 1: Add Pritchard and give him a phone.

Step 2: Roy+Tyler for Smith. They cut costs, get a real 5, move Al Horford to 4, and get a backup, so seems to make sense for them.
We get the best PF realistically available to us.

Step 3: Then call Utah and get Al Jefferson's deal for DC, Rush and salary relief.
Perfect? No. Better than Hibbert and most bigs in this league? Sure, imo. And J-Smith complements him perfectly

Step 4: OJ Mayo for a future pick (+S&T McBob if they even really want him).

Step 5: Draft Fredette and hope he's ok! Or sign Andre Miller or Aaron Brooks, if available / we have any cap left.
Personally, would prefer Andre with this roster for a few years, but he's on partially guaranteed deal for next year.

Step 6: the bench. Resign Dun (3 years, 10 mil deal? probably would take a bit more) to be a veteran 4th wing.
Use midlevel on Carl Landry or Dalembert or whoever will be the best available backup big.

Mayo-Danny-Smith-Al with a decent point guard. George, Dun and Dalembert as backup guys.

Profit!

Psyren
04-01-2011, 08:06 PM
Problem is what it would take to get him.

He certainly intrigues me though. He's a fantastic player who would really help us defend against better 3's and 4's.

vnzla81
04-01-2011, 08:28 PM
The Hawks need to realize that he is a 3 and not a 4 and I like him but I don't think he is the type of guy you need next to Hibbert.

Now if we are talking about getting him and then signing Tyson Chandler? :drool:

BringJackBack
04-01-2011, 08:34 PM
Whaaaa..? Josh Smith is the P-E-R-F-E-C-T fit next to Hibbert.

cdash
04-01-2011, 08:38 PM
The Hawks need to realize that he is a 3 and not a 4 and I like him but I don't think he is the type of guy you need next to Hibbert.

Now if we are talking about getting him and then signing Tyson Chandler? :drool:

Have you seen Josh Smith shoot jump shots? You want him playing as close to the basket as possible. You play him at the 3 and he is going to chuck up a ton of ill-advised shots.

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 08:48 PM
Smith is a 4. No questions. To put it in terms that vnzla can understand .... Saying Smith is a 3 is like saying Dunleavy is a star defender.

He's not overpaid at all. Are some of you watching the same NBA as me? Id trade Granger for him and jump around on my bed cheering for an hour like a kid.

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 08:58 PM
Smith is a 4. No questions. To put it in terms that vnzla can understand .... Saying Smith is a 3 is like saying Dunleavy is a star defender.

He's not overpaid at all. Are some of you watching the same NBA as me? Id trade Granger for him and jump around on my bed cheering for an hour like a kid.

That's a great idea - replace the two best players on the team with an average PF. If you want the Pacers to be a definite lottery team, make that deal. Maybe we can hit the lottery because we would be assured of a top 5 pick next year after that trade.

cdash
04-01-2011, 09:02 PM
That's a great idea - replace the two best players on the team with an average PF. If you want the Pacers to be a definite lottery team, make that deal. Maybe we can hit the lottery because we would be assured of a top 5 pick next year after that trade.

I'm confused. Replacing two players? Who else are you replacing?

Oh, and Josh Smith is much better than an average PF.

Gamble1
04-01-2011, 09:04 PM
My master plan to take over the world:

Step 1: Add Pritchard and give him a phone.

Step 2: Roy+Tyler for Smith. They cut costs, get a real 5, move Al Horford to 4, and get a backup, so seems to make sense for them.
We get the best PF realistically available to us.

Step 3: Then call Utah and get Al Jefferson's deal for DC, Rush and salary relief.
Perfect? No. Better than Hibbert and most bigs in this league? Sure, imo. And J-Smith complements him perfectly

Step 4: OJ Mayo for a future pick (+S&T McBob if they even really want him).

Step 5: Draft Fredette and hope he's ok! Or sign Andre Miller or Aaron Brooks, if available / we have any cap left.
Personally, would prefer Andre with this roster for a few years, but he's on partially guaranteed deel for next year.

Step 6: the bench. Resign Dun (3 years, 10 mil deal? probably would take a bit more) to be a veteran 4th wing.
Use midlevel on Carl Landry or Dalembert or whoever will be the best available backup big.

Mayo-Danny-Smith-Al with a decent point guard. George, Dun and Dalembert as backup guys.

Profit!
Step 2: Only trade Hibby for Smith.

Step 3: Get AL for 2 first round picks and Rush

Stop there....:)

Edit: I am not sure how much we can trade for and give the other team cap relief. I think you are going over....

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 09:07 PM
I'm confused. Replacing two players? Who else are you replacing?

Oh, and Josh Smith is much better than an average PF.

The last month of the season Tyler has put up the same numbers as Josh Smith has at his best! Why would you send Granger away for Josh Smith when Tyler is already every bit as good as he is? You would be basically cutting Granger and getting nothing in return.

cdash
04-01-2011, 09:10 PM
The last month of the season Tyler has put up the same numbers as Josh Smith has at his best! Why would you send Granger away for Josh Smith when Tyler is already every bit as good as he is? You would be basically cutting Granger and getting nothing in return.

Not really sure I follow your logic here. First off, Tyler would still be here and come off the bench and log nice minutes, so you aren't losing him. Second, I love Tyler, but Josh Smith is a much better player and, more importantly, he is a much, much better defender. With dealing Granger, the hope is that Paul George can slide over to the 3 (the position I think he ends up playing long term) and replace some of what you are losing with Danny.

Numbers are nice, but as Troy Murphy showed us...they don't mean everything. Smith's impact on both ends of the court is greater than Tyler's.

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 09:11 PM
That's a great idea - replace the two best players on the team with an average PF. If you want the Pacers to be a definite lottery team, make that deal. Maybe we can hit the lottery because we would be assured of a top 5 pick next year after that trade.

We'll be one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA because we swapped an innefficient 20 ppg scorer who rarely plays defense for a guy who scores 17 ppg more efficiently while being in the top 10 in the league in steals and also makes people think twice about going to the rim as one of the leagues 5 best shot blockers?

What are you smoking?

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 09:13 PM
The last month of the season Tyler has put up the same numbers as Josh Smith has at his best! Why would you send Granger away for Josh Smith when Tyler is already every bit as good as he is? You would be basically cutting Granger and getting nothing in return.

Tyler as good as Josh Smith? Are you kidding me?

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 09:14 PM
Step 2: Only trade Hibby for Smith.

Step 3: Get AL for 2 first round picks and Rush

Stop there....:)

Edit: I am not sure how much we can trade for and give the other team cap relief. I think you are going over....

Step #1 = I like Pritchard! He is aggressive and will shake things up!
Step #2 = Have to bail on this one. Giving away Hibbert for a player who is not any better than the PF we currently have would not be a good idea (IMHO). Tyler has been as productive as Smith since he has been a starter. Smith is not that good.
Step #3 = Not sure on this one either. AJ is an upgrade offensively but Im not sure I would trust a fat guy with a big contract. He is better than Roy though. I guess I'm unsure about this one.
Step#4 = That would be great!
Step #5 = I really want to see a bigger, veteran point guard! Miller would be great if not overpriced.
Step #6 = Dun, Jones, along with they guys you mentioned would make a strong bench!

What are the odds of all this working out? Slim to none, but it gives us something to talk about.

vnzla81
04-01-2011, 09:16 PM
Have you seen Josh Smith shoot jump shots? You want him playing as close to the basket as possible. You play him at the 3 and he is going to chuck up a ton of ill-advised shots.

I don't think he is the banger, garbage man Roy needs next to him, he is an undersize power forward that can dunk and do a lot of things, this year he is getting 16.8 and 8, call me crazy but I could see Tyler getting close to that, maybe 14 and 7, and with Josh getting like 9 and 7.

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 09:17 PM
Tyler as good as Josh Smith? Are you kidding me?

Anyone who can count can see this. Tyler = 15.8/7 Smith = 16.8/8.7
You want to spend 10 million more for 1 point and 1 rebound per game? And we are using Tyler's second year versus Smith's all-time best! Smith is a very mediocre PF. Adds nothing to the team but millions of $$$ and 1 point and 1 rebound per game.

speakout4
04-01-2011, 09:18 PM
Those days where the offense goes to sleep would be long gone with Smith in the lineup.

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 09:19 PM
I don't think he is the banger, garbage man Roy needs next to him, he is an undersize power forward that can dunk and do a lot of things, this year he is getting 16.8 and 8, call me crazy but I could see Tyler getting close to that, maybe 14 and 7, and with Josh getting like 9 and 7.

I agree! Tyler has already been doing close to that the last month. Real bunch of GM's here that want to take our strongest position and raid it while doing nothing to help the other 4 positions which SUCK!

cdash
04-01-2011, 09:20 PM
I don't think he is the banger, garbage man Roy needs next to him, he is an undersize power forward that can dunk and do a lot of things, this year he is getting 16.8 and 8, call me crazy but I could see Tyler getting close to that, maybe 14 and 7, and with Josh getting like 9 and 7.

He's not undersized. He's got plenty of size, length, and athleticism. I noticed you left out other stats there, you know, the ones that Tyler doesn't get but Smith does. Blocks (a lot of them), steals, and assists. More efficient. A rim protector...not sure what there is not to like with Smith at PF, besides maybe his mercurial attitude.

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 09:22 PM
He's not undersized. He's got plenty of size, length, and athleticism. I noticed you left out other stats there, you know, the ones that Tyler doesn't get but Smith does. Blocks (a lot of them), steals, and assists. More efficient. A rim protector...not sure what there is not to like with Smith at PF, besides maybe his mercurial attitude.

"Mercurial attitude" = is that slang for an idiot?

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 09:27 PM
Anyone who can count can see this. Tyler = 15.8/7 Smith = 16.8/8.7
You want to spend 10 million more for 1 point and 1 rebound per game? And we are using Tyler's second year versus Smith's all-time best! Smith is a very mediocre PF. Adds nothing to the team but millions of $$$ and 1 point and 1 rebound per game.

You're ignoring that Smith will have more blocks, steals, and assists in one month than Tyler will have all year. He doesn't miss rotations like Tyler either. As much stock as we put in Tyler drawing fouls, Smith does the same.

This isn't even close. Smith is the real deal and Tyler would be best coming off the bench.

vnzla81
04-01-2011, 09:28 PM
He's not undersized. He's got plenty of size, length, and athleticism. I noticed you left out other stats there, you know, the ones that Tyler doesn't get but Smith does. Blocks (a lot of them), steals, and assists. More efficient. A rim protector...not sure what there is not to like with Smith at PF, besides maybe his mercurial attitude.

Don't get me wrong I like the guy but just like Zbo,Al and another bunch of power forwards I don't think he fits with Hibbert, I also don't see PF as our weakness, to me priority number 1 is point guard and priority number 2 is getting a guard that can create his own shot.

cdash
04-01-2011, 09:28 PM
"Mercurial attitude" = is that slang for an idiot?

Not an idiot, but he's definitely got some diva in him. Maybe he needs a Snickers bar.

vnzla81
04-01-2011, 09:29 PM
By the way JS is playing on ESPN right now.

cdash
04-01-2011, 09:31 PM
Don't get me wrong I like the guy but just like Zbo,Al and another bunch of power forwards I don't think he fits with Hibbert, I also don't see PF as our weakness, to me priority number 1 is point guard and priority number 2 is getting a guard that can create his own shot.

Power forward may not be a "weakness" per se, but it can be improved, and Josh Smith would be a big improvement. I just don't see how he doesn't fit with Hibbert. You want an athletic guy who blocks shots and plays solid defense next to Roy. Someone who won't clog the lane and can hit a midrange shot. That's Josh Smith.

Gamble1
04-01-2011, 09:32 PM
I would be happy with either AL Jefferson or Josh Smith. IF we could get both then great but I don't want to break the bank to get both of them. I think we should have a shot at either one but its going to have to be a sweet deal. IF we could do Tyler for Josh and a second round pick then I think the Hawks would consider it.

Likewise I think AL could be had with multiple picks and or Rush or Tyler. I don't mind having a perfect fit because we could do a lot of damage with Hibby and AL. Think Lakers with Pau Gasol and Bynum. The key is too use the cap space so we get the most bang for buck.

Trophy
04-01-2011, 09:32 PM
Smith is a 4. No questions. To put it in terms that vnzla can understand .... Saying Smith is a 3 is like saying Dunleavy is a star defender.

He's not overpaid at all. Are some of you watching the same NBA as me? Id trade Granger for him and jump around on my bed cheering for an hour like a kid.

I agree 100%.

There's no question Smith is a 4. Yes he's 6-9 (like Tyler), but he's able to contain opposing big men with his solid defense. He was a strong candidate for defensive player of the year last season and/or the season before.

His offense is something dangerous for opponents.

I'd love to get the Atlanta's key player that always kills us in pretty much every matchup against them.

Give them Danny, a few other pieces for Smith.

Josh Smith is really the #1 big man I want and I want us to be active and go out and try and get him.

ballism
04-01-2011, 09:32 PM
Anyone who can count can see this. Tyler = 15.8/7 Smith = 16.8/8.7
You want to spend 10 million more for 1 point and 1 rebound per game? And we are using Tyler's second year versus Smith's all-time best! Smith is a very mediocre PF. Adds nothing to the team but millions of $$$ and 1 point and 1 rebound per game.

Take it a step further, KG in his title year = 18.8/9.2 at 10 more million than Josh Smith. Basically, 3 points, 2 rebounds for 20 mil more than Tyler.
Yuck!

Gamble1
04-01-2011, 09:39 PM
Don't get me wrong I like the guy but just like Zbo,Al and another bunch of power forwards I don't think he fits with Hibbert, I also don't see PF as our weakness, to me priority number 1 is point guard and priority number 2 is getting a guard that can create his own shot.
Thats why I think we should just get either Smith or Jefferson but not both. IF we could get Mayo for our first then Smith or Jefferson then problem solved. I think you are over thinking the perfect fit next to Hibbert.

PacerPride33
04-01-2011, 09:41 PM
Posey+Rush+McBob sign and trade to give them a 4 back and this years first

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 09:41 PM
You're ignoring that Smith will have more blocks, steals, and assists in one month than Tyler will have all year. He doesn't miss rotations like Tyler either. As much stock as we put in Tyler drawing fouls, Smith does the same.

This isn't even close. Smith is the real deal and Tyler would be best coming off the bench.

Hey I am all for upgrading every position. But why sink millions into your best position right now when the other 4 basically suck. An analogy that makes sense would be to ask why would the Colts invest millions in Drew Brees to be Peyton's back up? I know the football players here are way better than the BB players but the point is similar. There are 5 positions on the court at one time. 4 are terrible, and 1 is holding their own. I would simply improve the ones that suck the most first. No pg, No sg, Center is soft, and SF is only good when he feels like playing. Smith is not bad. But we have much more glaring weaknesses that cannot be filled if Smith is added.

Sparhawk
04-01-2011, 09:41 PM
I would love to get Smith as I mentioned in another thread. Not sure we have the pieces that Atlanta would want. They want a C to move Horford to the 4, so it would take Hibbert. We only want Smith to put next to Hibbert.

Don't think we'll get Smith. And Smith is a hell of a lot better than tunnel vision Hans.

speakout4
04-01-2011, 09:46 PM
If we get Smith then our concern would be who plays best along side him. Smith not Roy would be the cornerstone but I don't see a problem and expect they would adjust to each other. Josh's mobility would help when roy is double-teamed. Josh is just so much more mobile than Tyler. Right now we have two less than optimal athletes starting in the frontcourt.

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 09:48 PM
Hey I am all for upgrading every position. But why sink millions into your best position right now when the other 4 basically suck. An analogy that makes sense would be to ask why would the Colts invest millions in Drew Brees to be Peyton's back up? I know the football players here are way better than the BB players but the point is similar. There are 5 positions on the court at one time. 4 are terrible, and 1 is holding their own. I would simply improve the ones that suck the most first. No pg, No sg, Center is soft, and SF is only good when he feels like playing. Smith is not bad. But we have much more glaring weaknesses that cannot be filled if Smith is added.

You're putting too much stock in 1 good month from Tyler. You realizing you're comparing a single month to a guy who's been doing it for years. Not only that, but they're the same age. Tyler could win 6th man awards while Josh is making All NBA defensive teams in his prime.

Everyone on this team has had their ups and downs. Why you're singling out Tyler as amazing and everyone as terrible I have no clue. Are you a UNC fan who migrated here or something?

vnzla81
04-01-2011, 09:48 PM
Thats why I think we should just get either Smith or Jefferson but not both. IF we could get Mayo for our first then Smith or Jefferson then problem solved. I think you are over thinking the perfect fit next to Hibbert.

Is not over thinking, every team needs to do this, there is a reason why Minny didn't want to play Al and Love together and now Utah is finding out that the Al/Millsap front court is not that good, to me guys that complement Hibbert don't cost a lot of money.

Gamble1
04-01-2011, 10:00 PM
Is not over thinking, every team needs to do this, there is a reason why Minny didn't want to play Al and Love together and now Utah is finding out that the Al/Millsap front court is not that good, to me guys that complement Hibbert don't cost a lot of money.
Utahs issues are not because of Al and Milsap (who is having a break out year). They lost a great coach and a top 3 pg in the league. So you think Kahn made a smart move by trading AL?????

speakout4
04-01-2011, 10:07 PM
I am missing why Hibbert/Tyler is better than Hibbert/Smith. What exactly does Tyler do to help Roy or is it that Tyler not proximal to Roy that makes it work.

I don't think that we have yet found the right PF/C combo and I like both Roy and Tyler.

troyc11a
04-01-2011, 10:15 PM
You're putting too much stock in 1 good month from Tyler. You realizing you're comparing a single month to a guy who's been doing it for years. Not only that, but they're the same age. Tyler could win 6th man awards while Josh is making All NBA defensive teams in his prime.

Everyone on this team has had their ups and downs. Why you're singling out Tyler as amazing and everyone as terrible I have no clue. Are you a UNC fan who migrated here or something?

I simply watch a team that has exactly one guy that plays hard each night and he is the one everyone wants to bench or move out. I love watching Tyler because of his passion. And as for years, Smith is in his third. I just cant understand the reasoning behind bringing him in when he is no better than the guy we have.

Jared Sullinger
04-01-2011, 10:17 PM
We'll be one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA because we swapped an innefficient 20 ppg scorer who rarely plays defense for a guy who scores 17 ppg more efficiently while being in the top 10 in the league in steals and also makes people think twice about going to the rim as one of the leagues 5 best shot blockers?

What are you smoking?

Granger's a more efficient scorer than Josh Smith and has been every single season of his career. Other than that, I'd agree that Smith is clearly the more complete player and probably would fill a bigger need for the team, especially if George is as good as many expect him to be.

cdash
04-01-2011, 10:17 PM
I simply watch a team that has exactly one guy that plays hard each night and he is the one everyone wants to bench or move out. I love watching Tyler because of his passion. And as for years, Smith is in his third. I just cant understand the reasoning behind bringing him in when he is no better than the guy we have.

No one is wanting to bench Tyler or move him out. If you put Tyler on the bench in a sixth man role, I really think that he will a) still get minutes and b) could be a sixth man of the year type of guy, and a huge boon to our second unit. Once again, Smith is absolutely better than Tyler, make no mistake about it...and I love Tyler.

Hoop
04-01-2011, 10:21 PM
I simply watch a team that has exactly one guy that plays hard each night and he is the one everyone wants to bench or move out. I love watching Tyler because of his passion. [b]And as for years, Smith is in his third[b/]. I just cant understand the reasoning behind bringing him in when he is no better than the guy we have.
Just for the info, Smith is in his 7 season. It's not hard to look up.

cdash
04-01-2011, 10:22 PM
Just for the info, Smith is in his 7 season. It's not hard to look up.

That's crazy to me that he and Tyler are the same age though. So weird.

Trophy
04-01-2011, 10:23 PM
I'm a little reluctant to trade Roy to get Josh Smith because getting rid of Roy isn't going to do much for us because Smith needs a center to play with.

I would, however trade Danny for Smith straight up or throw in a future 1st round pick or 2 if needed.

xIndyFan
04-01-2011, 10:33 PM
since the pacers play ATL next friday, we will all get a chance to see if tyler = jsmith. my guess, smith will have an easy night shooting over tyler and/or josh. if you can get josh smith on the pacers, tyler, mcbobs and everyone else takes a step down. josh smith is a top 10 PF. much better than what the pacers have now.

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 10:36 PM
Just for the info, Smith is in his 7 season. It's not hard to look up.

From the guy who just asked if I could count. :D

xBulletproof
04-01-2011, 10:40 PM
I simply watch a team that has exactly one guy that plays hard each night and he is the one everyone wants to bench or move out. I love watching Tyler because of his passion. And as for years, Smith is in his third. I just cant understand the reasoning behind bringing him in when he is no better than the guy we have.

Except he isn't nearly as good as Smith in a lot of ways.

You're either just a really, really bad judge in evaluating talent or you haven't watched Josh Smith. There really aren't any other options.

xIndyFan
04-01-2011, 10:45 PM
Except he isn't nearly as good as Smith in a lot of ways.

You're either just a really, really bad judge in evaluating talent or you haven't watched Josh Smith. There really aren't any other options.

:amen: this. josh smith is a top 5, top 10 PF talent. pacers have no one even close to him. he is one of the guys that the pacers should really make an effort to get.

ballism
04-01-2011, 10:46 PM
Edit: I am not sure how much we can trade for and give the other team cap relief. I think you are going over....

There are many 'ifs' there, it's more a wishlist of a fan than a realistic plan. :p
I mean, how many times have teams pulled something like that anyway. As in, 4 better starters -- mostly through trades -- in a short span. i think only once, Dumars in Detroit.

As for cap, i won't check numbers, but off the top of my head, I think that's actually the most realistic part. It should work. We'd be adding around 30-35 mil (?), while giving away 8-10 (?). That could work if cap doesn't change. If the numbers are wrong, might have to throw in Posey's expiring in one of the deals, or renounce Dun or McBob Bird rights.

beast23
04-02-2011, 12:03 AM
My initial first choice for starting PF was West. I liked his PnR game and he is a very capable scorer and rebounder while also being a better than average defender. However, Smith is by far the more complete player and is one of the top 2-3 defenders at the position.

That being said, I would do everything I could to complete the trade without sacrificing Granger. We drafted Granger and it appears he considers himself to be a long-term Hoosier. Once his contract is up, I think most of us would believe that Granger would be willing to re-sign with us once again. Giving up Granger could prove a bit risky 2 years from now when it comes time to renegotiate Smith's contract. Is he as likely to stay as Granger? Just asking... because 2 years down the road if we find ourselves without Smith AND Granger, we are in trouble.

I would probably keep Granger and Hibbert off-limits if possible. But I would be willing to give up anyone else to get Smith. If that could be done, Hibbert, Smith and Granger make an excellent base for the makings of a very good team.

If we had those three players, I would lean towards a defensive-minded team and see if the Sixers could be persuaded to part with Igoudala. I believe that with these four players, perimeter shooting would suffer, but we would definitely have one of the best defending starting units in the league.

The coming summer, if we can only get a new CBA, could prove to be a very interesting off-season. It looks like there will be many teams looking to shed salary. I can hardly wait to see what our acquisitions will be.

Will Galen
04-02-2011, 12:47 AM
I'm a little reluctant to trade Roy to get Josh Smith because getting rid of Roy isn't going to do much for us because Smith needs a center to play with.

I would, however trade Danny for Smith straight up or throw in a future 1st round pick or 2 if needed.

:-o :rolleyes:

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 02:40 AM
:amen: this. josh smith is a top 5, top 10 PF talent. pacers have no one even close to him. he is one of the guys that the pacers should really make an effort to get.

Josh Smith is about the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team. How in the world is he a top 5 talent?

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 02:49 AM
Just for the info, Smith is in his 7 season. It's not hard to look up.

I was taking off for "college" years to make it more even. Its really not fair to compare a guys who are close in age while one has played 7 years in the NBA while the other has played only 2. Smith should be miles ahead of Tyler in his development.

DemonHunter1105
04-02-2011, 04:09 AM
I am still not sure we are utilizing Danny to the best of his abilities. I wouldn't trade him and his scoring punch for Josh unless they threw something else in (Jo. Crawford?) and we threw in someone like Tyler too.

I want to keep Roy.

wintermute
04-02-2011, 06:38 AM
Josh Smith is about the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team. How in the world is he a top 5 talent?

The guy you quoted said he was a top 5, top 10 PF - I'd agree with top 10 PF. I have Horford as the Hawks' best player, with Josh Smith 2nd best and Joe Johnson 3rd. I'd say Joe is Granger level talent, with Smith a step above.

There's no doubt that Smith is extremely talented, but I don't think he's playing up to his potential. In particular, his immaturity, shot selection, and lack of focus really hurts his team. Just check his game logs to see how up and down his play could be.

He's a top defender in the league though. And his athleticism can be difficult for some teams to handle (i.e. Pacers). In the Hawks' 3 wins against us this season, Josh Smith is averaging 24.3 pts 8.3 reb 4.0 ast 3.3 blk on 51% shooting. That's some monster numbers there.

No idea whether the Hawks plan to move him or not, but if they do I think he's worth the gamble.

Frostwolf
04-02-2011, 09:17 AM
josh smith gets blocks, steals, rebounds, and has a jump shot. and he is quick enough to defend 3s and 4s well. he can jump out of the gym. tyler may be offensively gifted, but josh is the complete package.

tyler, he's getting there. but anyone who thinks they are at the same level of talent is surely surely misguided.

Gamble1
04-02-2011, 09:58 AM
There are many 'ifs' there, it's more a wishlist of a fan than a realistic plan. :p
I mean, how many times have teams pulled something like that anyway. As in, 4 better starters -- mostly through trades -- in a short span. i think only once, Dumars in Detroit.

As for cap, i won't check numbers, but off the top of my head, I think that's actually the most realistic part. It should work. We'd be adding around 30-35 mil (?), while giving away 8-10 (?). That could work if cap doesn't change. If the numbers are wrong, might have to throw in Posey's expiring in one of the deals, or renounce Dun or McBob Bird rights.
I think we could get Josh Smith with just Roy Hibbert. There are very few promising young centers in the league that can score and I think the Hawks would pull the trigger on the deal in heart beat.

I would be happy with a future lineup of:

pg: Collison 1.5 mill
sg: Mayo 5 mill
sf: Danny G 13 mill
pf: Josh Smith 13 mill
C: Dalembert 7 mill

Backups: Price, Djones, PG, Rush (may have to package him for JSmith), Tyler, Name your backup Center (Foster, Kwame Brown, Pryzbilla).

Defensively that frontcourt is now very tough which you are going to need if Collison is our starting pg and we still have money to spare.

Edit: That starting lineup is only costing us 40 million which is actually pretty good. If the Hawks would take 2 first and Rush for Josh then I do it in a heart beat.

littlerichard54
04-02-2011, 10:16 AM
My master plan to take over the world:

Step 1: Add Pritchard and give him a phone.

Step 2: Roy+Tyler for Smith. They cut costs, get a real 5, move Al Horford to 4, and get a backup, so seems to make sense for them.
We get the best PF realistically available to us.

Step 3: Then call Utah and get Al Jefferson's deal for DC, Rush and salary relief.
Perfect? No. Better than Hibbert and most bigs in this league? Sure, imo. And J-Smith complements him perfectly

Step 4: OJ Mayo for a future pick (+S&T McBob if they even really want him).

Step 5: Draft Fredette and hope he's ok! Or sign Andre Miller or Aaron Brooks, if available / we have any cap left.
Personally, would prefer Andre with this roster for a few years, but he's on partially guaranteed deal for next year.

Step 6: the bench. Resign Dun (3 years, 10 mil deal? probably would take a bit more) to be a veteran 4th wing.
Use midlevel on Carl Landry or Dalembert or whoever will be the best available backup big.

Mayo-Danny-Smith-Al with a decent point guard. George, Dun and Dalembert as backup guys.

Profit!


Oh my.......

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 01:11 PM
The guy you quoted said he was a top 5, top 10 PF - I'd agree with top 10 PF. I have Horford as the Hawks' best player, with Josh Smith 2nd best and Joe Johnson 3rd. I'd say Joe is Granger level talent, with Smith a step above.

There's no doubt that Smith is extremely talented, but I don't think he's playing up to his potential. In particular, his immaturity, shot selection, and lack of focus really hurts his team. Just check his game logs to see how up and down his play could be.

He's a top defender in the league though. And his athleticism can be difficult for some teams to handle (i.e. Pacers). In the Hawks' 3 wins against us this season, Josh Smith is averaging 24.3 pts 8.3 reb 4.0 ast 3.3 blk on 51% shooting. That's some monster numbers there.

No idea whether the Hawks plan to move him or not, but if they do I think he's worth the gamble.

Sorry I missed the PF quote. There is no way he is the 2nd best player on the team. At best he is 4th. 3rd would be a severe stretch and 2nd is just not looking at the roster. He is not even in the same ballpark as Horford. I would trade any 2 players they wanted for him. Johnson is way better (so is Granger), and Crawford is better. Heck, I know Hinrich isnt better than Smith but I would much rather have him because he adds what we need.

I dont get the infatuation this board has for a very mediocre player. He is average and way overpaid. He is so good that he wasnt even in the game last night night at crunch time. Which shows he is not that good, he is just paid good.

Jrod Jones
04-02-2011, 01:11 PM
Why is money a problem here. Next year we could be looking at almost 30 million in cap space... whats the point in not spending any of it on an elite talent? Smith is the perfect fit for us with his explosive defense and high efficiency offense (I know his shooting is spotty at times but he still shots around 50% consistently)

Taking on Smith and maybe 1 other player would be completely doable within our salary limitations next year...

Jrod Jones
04-02-2011, 01:14 PM
Sorry I missed the PF quote. There is no way he is the 2nd best player on the team. At best he is 4th. 3rd would be a severe stretch and 2nd is just not looking at the roster. He is not even in the same ballpark as Horford. I would trade any 2 players they wanted for him. Johnson is way better (so is Granger), and Crawford is better. Heck, I know Hinrich isnt better than Smith but I would much rather have him because he adds what we need.

I dont get the infatuation this board has for a very mediocre player. He is average and way overpaid. He is so good that he wasnt even in the game last night night at crunch time. Which shows he is not that good, he is just paid good.

Are you kidding me?

2009- 16/9/4 + 2steals 2blocks (51% FG)
2008- 16/7/3 + 1.5steals 1.5blocks (50% FG)
2007- 17/8/3 + 1.5steals 3blocks (46% FG)

In his 5 years as a full time starter, Smith has had 8+ rebounds and 2+ blocks in 4 of them.

Youngest player EVER to reach 500 blocks (21)
Youngest player EVER to reach 1000 blocks (24)
All-Defensive 2nd Team (2010)

And on top of all of this, THE GUY IS 25 YEARS OLD

itzryan07
04-02-2011, 01:36 PM
id say get mayo and smith, and trade Granger and have PG move to the SF

cdash
04-02-2011, 01:39 PM
Smith should be miles ahead of Tyler in his development.

He is.

Sparhawk
04-02-2011, 01:56 PM
I do want Smith, but no to Mayo. A Mayo and Collison backcourt would be a lot of pressure on the the bigs, although it could mean a career high in blocks for Smith.

cdash
04-02-2011, 02:02 PM
I do want Smith, but no to Mayo. A Mayo and Collison backcourt would be a lot of pressure on the the bigs, although it could mean a career high in blocks for Smith.

Yeah I'm still not sure why so many people have their hearts set on OJ Mayo. Maybe it's because they know he is available for cheap?

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Are you kidding me?

2009- 16/9/4 + 2steals 2blocks (51% FG)
2008- 16/7/3 + 1.5steals 1.5blocks (50% FG)
2007- 17/8/3 + 1.5steals 3blocks (46% FG)

In his 5 years as a full time starter, Smith has had 8+ rebounds and 2+ blocks in 4 of them.

Youngest player EVER to reach 500 blocks (21)
Youngest player EVER to reach 1000 blocks (24)
All-Defensive 2nd Team (2010)

And on top of all of this, THE GUY IS 25 YEARS OLD

All of this for a guy who is not good enough to get off the bench during crunch time against a contender.

itzryan07
04-02-2011, 03:26 PM
Yeah I'm still not sure why so many people have their hearts set on OJ Mayo. Maybe it's because they know he is available for cheap?

they want him cause he is a beast. Don't say he is a bust cause he isn't. Rudy Gay is the star of the team and thats why his stats dont look good

cdash
04-02-2011, 03:31 PM
they want him cause he is a beast. Don't say he is a bust cause he isn't. Rudy Gay is the star of the team and thats why his stats dont look good

Such a beast that he doesn't even start over Tony Allen (who I really, really like actually).

cdash
04-02-2011, 03:33 PM
All of this for a guy who is not good enough to get off the bench during crunch time against a contender.

Oh for crying out loud. Are you a Tyler/UNC fan or are you a Pacers fan? If it's the former I'll stop wasting my time arguing with you.

Trophy
04-02-2011, 03:55 PM
I'd gladly go out and get both Mayo and Smith.

Mayo needs to go to a new team and get a role. He's just not fitting in with Memphis. Give them Josh (S&T), Brandon, and 2011 First.

Getting Smith is a pipe dream. Give them 2 Firsts past in 2012 and 2013 and Danny.

xIndyFan
04-02-2011, 04:09 PM
Yeah I'm still not sure why so many people have their hearts set on OJ Mayo. Maybe it's because they know he is available for cheap?

me neither?? wouldn't mind having him as a third wing, but not to play in front of danny or paul.

my theory is people like mayo because he was a high draft pick. or someone they thought was going to be a good player when he was drafted. he just hasn't been in the league long enough or played for a team they watch enough for that to wear off.

Trophy
04-02-2011, 04:22 PM
me neither?? wouldn't mind having him as a third wing, but not to play in front of danny or paul.

my theory is people like mayo because he was a high draft pick. or someone they thought was going to be a good player when he was drafted. he just hasn't been in the league long enough or played for a team they watch enough for that to wear off.

I watch the Grizzlies pretty often not just for Mayo, but when he does come on the floor, he brings solid scoring and he's pretty talented. He has signs of potential and would probably be a big time scorer with a different team.

He has good ballhandling and is crafty.

So that's my opinion on him. He's talented and that's something we lack. Not because he's a top pick.

I still have a feeling Bird will get him. I mean I wouldn't think he'd be that interested in a deal and it doesn't get done because there's no time and he'll walk away from it completely.

ballism
04-02-2011, 04:23 PM
Personally I like Mayo, because he's better than the no.15 pick in this draft. Also, he's an upgrade over any guard on the roster, and he's still on rookie scale for one more year. I'm more surprised when people want to start Paul, who clearly is not ready for a starting role yet. Or when people start to consider Rush or Dahntay good starters after a couple good games or even a couple decent defensive possessions.

cdash
04-02-2011, 04:23 PM
I'm not wild about a Mayo/Collison backcourt (and unlike many, I'm not ready to give up on DC yet). It isn't a great pairing and we would have any extremely small, defensively weak backcourt.

xIndyFan
04-02-2011, 04:29 PM
I'm not wild about a Mayo/Collison backcourt (and unlike many, I'm not ready to give up on DC yet). It isn't a great pairing and we would have any extremely small, defensively weak backcourt.

:iagree:

draft express has mayo listed at 6-3.25. that is pretty short for a SG. especially one without much interest in the defensive end.

pacers are trying to be a smashmouth strong physical team. i just don't see mayo being that kind of guy. now maybe if i watched more MEM games, he would have virtues that i missed, but the ones i do watch he seems to be a chucker. and not much of a defender. :shrug:

xIndyFan
04-02-2011, 04:33 PM
I watch the Grizzlies pretty often not just for Mayo, but when he does come on the floor, he brings solid scoring and he's pretty talented. He has signs of potential and would probably be a big time scorer with a different team.

He has good ballhandling and is crafty.

So that's my opinion on him. He's talented and that's something we lack. Not because he's a top pick.

I still have a feeling Bird will get him. I mean I wouldn't think he'd be that interested in a deal and it doesn't get done because there's no time and he'll walk away from it completely.

i have no way of knowing, but my impression was the mayo deal was more of a chance to get rid of a couple of guys and take a flyer on mayo rather than a guy bird really wanted.

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 04:33 PM
Oh for crying out loud. Are you a Tyler/UNC fan or are you a Pacers fan? If it's the former I'll stop wasting my time arguing with you.

I hate NC. I am a Pacer fan who wants to see the team get better. We would not be much better with Smith than we will be with Tyler. Drop $10mill on a player who players our deepest and best position while leaving the other 4 alone will leave us with about 38-40 wins next year. Outside of Tyler and Danny, we have the worst starting "other 3" in basketball. If we get Smith we are stuck with Collison, George, and Hibbert. This means we will suck again next year because we still only have 2 decent starters. Improve the PG or SG position and this team is above .500 next year.
There will not be enough cap room to get Smith and improve the team as well. We still have to keep the bench together which means resigning Dunleavy and JMac. Want the team battle for the 8th seed again = get Smith.

ballism
04-02-2011, 04:37 PM
I'm not wild about a Mayo/Collison backcourt (and unlike many, I'm not ready to give up on DC yet). It isn't a great pairing and we would have any extremely small, defensively weak backcourt.

Indeed, it's not perfect. Although lets be fair, Mayo is not a Kyle Korver - he's active on defense and above average, just doesn't have the wingspan to be great. DC would be the far weaker link in that chain.
I'm all for a better backcourt, if there are any better options in terms of price, talent, age, production and defense.

ballism
04-02-2011, 04:41 PM
i have no way of knowing, but my impression was the mayo deal was more of a chance to get rid of a couple of guys and take a flyer on mayo rather than a guy bird really wanted.

You don't get rid of expiring (McBob) and decent rookie contract (Rush) and give away a mid round pick, unless you like what you get back.
I have no way of knowing either, just would seem insane to me if that happened.

Eleazar
04-02-2011, 05:30 PM
So that's my opinion on him. He's talented and that's something we lack. Not because he's a top pick.


When will people realize that we in fact do have a lot of young talent. We don't have a winning record under Vogel because we have veteran savvy. No it is because we have a bunch of talent.

Spirit
04-02-2011, 08:59 PM
I'd rather have Tyler starting at PF than Josh Smith.

itzryan07
04-02-2011, 09:19 PM
Such a beast that he doesn't even start over Tony Allen (who I really, really like actually).

actually, in the beginning of the season, they wanted to bring him off the bench for more scoring or instant offense, but he never adapted to it, and then he got the 10 game suspension, and a fight on the team plane, so it just has been a bad season for him overall

yoadknux
04-02-2011, 09:33 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here...
J-Smoove is one of the best defensive forwards in the league, gets tons of steals and blocks, can score the ball well.
Tyler is a nice offensive player, not a great defender, and in his best month of the year had about the same offensive production as Josh.

I don't know what's going to happen in a few years, but right now, I don't see anything Tyler does better than Josh.

beast23
04-02-2011, 09:44 PM
I hate NC. I am a Pacer fan who wants to see the team get better. We would not be much better with Smith than we will be with Tyler. Drop $10mill on a player who players our deepest and best position while leaving the other 4 alone will leave us with about 38-40 wins next year. Outside of Tyler and Danny, we have the worst starting "other 3" in basketball. If we get Smith we are stuck with Collison, George, and Hibbert. This means we will suck again next year because we still only have 2 decent starters. Improve the PG or SG position and this team is above .500 next year.
There will not be enough cap room to get Smith and improve the team as well. We still have to keep the bench together which means resigning Dunleavy and JMac. Want the team battle for the 8th seed again = get Smith.
I actually "get" some of what you are saying. You are probably saying that PF is the deepest position on the team because we have two players that are capable of playing the position with the level not signicantly dropping off no matter which player is on the floor. Unfortunately, I think what you are overlooking is that neither player in conjunction with Hibbert is capable of providing good/adequate frontcourt defense.

You seem to think that adding Smith would be the only move the Pacers intended to make. Either that or you believe that after adding Smith, the Pacers would not have enough cap space left over to add other quality players to the roster. Both assumptions would be wrong.

As an example, if we were to remove the salary of all expiring contracts from the roster, then re-sign McRoberts for 3.5M, sign a first-round draft choice for 1.5M, then add Smith's and Igoudala's salaries to the roster, the total salary expenditure would be 66.4M. And, that does not account for the total salary being reduced by the salaries of the players that would have to be traded to acquire the two players.

What I'm saying is that it is possible to significantly improve the roster by adding as many as two quality players with higher salaries without breaking the bank. Any assumptions otherwise are just wrong.

speakout4
04-02-2011, 09:52 PM
I actually "get" some of what you are saying. You are probably saying that PF is the deepest position on the team because we have two players that are capable of playing the position with the level not signicantly dropping off no matter which player is on the floor. Unfortunately, I think what you are overlooking is that neither player in conjunction with Hibbert is capable of providing good/adequate frontcourt defense.

You seem to think that adding Smith would be the only move the Pacers intended to make. Either that or you believe that after adding Smith, the Pacers would not have enough cap space left over to add other quality players to the roster. Both assumptions would be wrong.

As an example, if we were to remove the salary of all expiring contracts from the roster, then re-sign McRoberts for 3.5M, sign a first-round draft choice for 1.5M, then add Smith's and Igoudala's salaries to the roster, the total salary expenditure would be 66.4M. And, that does not account for the total salary being reduced by the salaries of the players that would have to be traded to acquire the two players.

What I'm saying is that it is possible to significantly improve the roster by adding as many as two quality players with higher salaries without breaking the bank. Any assumptions otherwise are just wrong.
I don't see what you see because there will be too many players coming up for their second contracts in a few short years and there will be no money to sign all of them. This team needs to avoid the situation where Donnie had to let Brad Miller go because he had to resign Bender, Foster, and Reggie. So Smith, Igoudala, Granger will just break the bank.

beast23
04-02-2011, 10:16 PM
I don't see what you see because there will be too many players coming up for their second contracts in a few short years and there will be no money to sign all of them. This team needs to avoid the situation where Donnie had to let Brad Miller go because he had to resign Bender, Foster, and Reggie. So Smith, Igoudala, Granger will just break the bank.Two years out, you are correct. After next season, Posey's contract is gone, but the total team salary is still high. My point was to show that getting two quality players was possible.

As the end of next season approaches, I think the Pacers will have some difficult choices to make, regardless of what the total salary is and how many players we might bring in this summer. But, I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing... it will be time to either fish or cut bait with several of our players. Price, Collison, Hibbert, Hansbrough, George, Rush and possibly a re-signed McRoberts. Some of these players would be traded to bring in better players this summer. And others might be traded in the summer of 2012. Or possibly one of these players improves so much that the players we acquire this summer will be traded at the trade deadline next year or in the summer of 2012.

Look, it is totally possible to not sign anyone this summer and merely let the cap space be eaten up by increasing salaries and the cost of re-signing players in the summer of 2012. If it is only salary that we are concerned with, then signing maybe one player this summer and then taking the conservative approach of not doing anything else is the safe way to go. But this tact falls significantly short in doing much to improve the team's success in the W-L column.

The point is, add to the talent this summer and do NOT wait/hope that the present youngsters will all achieve their perceived upside. Use most of the cap space this summer to acquire top notch talent and then be prepared to make the trades that are necessary to maintain a decent salary level the following summer (2012). We will still have desirable assets at that time... for example Smith would be on the last year of his contract and at least some of the remaining youngsters will be coveted players.

I feel confident that the Pacers will acquire at least one decent talent this summer. An important point is to surround that player with as much talent as possible in hopes that the player will want to stay in Indianapolis.

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 10:37 PM
I actually "get" some of what you are saying. You are probably saying that PF is the deepest position on the team because we have two players that are capable of playing the position with the level not signicantly dropping off no matter which player is on the floor. Unfortunately, I think what you are overlooking is that neither player in conjunction with Hibbert is capable of providing good/adequate frontcourt defense.

You seem to think that adding Smith would be the only move the Pacers intended to make. Either that or you believe that after adding Smith, the Pacers would not have enough cap space left over to add other quality players to the roster. Both assumptions would be wrong.

As an example, if we were to remove the salary of all expiring contracts from the roster, then re-sign McRoberts for 3.5M, sign a first-round draft choice for 1.5M, then add Smith's and Igoudala's salaries to the roster, the total salary expenditure would be 66.4M. And, that does not account for the total salary being reduced by the salaries of the players that would have to be traded to acquire the two players.

What I'm saying is that it is possible to significantly improve the roster by adding as many as two quality players with higher salaries without breaking the bank. Any assumptions otherwise are just wrong.

Wait just a minute! You are assuming the CBA will not change. In all likely hood the salary cap will drop significantly. If it does not - then there can be an honest debate. But adding Smith would put a lot of money into the 4 and I just think that is fundamentally wrong. The 4 spot should not be taking up a huge chunk of the cap on a winning team unless it is an elite player. Smith is a decent player but nowhere near elite. A winning team always has a good pg (unless they have superstars like Jordan, Pippen or Kobe, Gasol). I am not convinced Hibbert will ever be a quality defensive Center. Smith looks good on defense now because Horford can cover some of his mistakes - Hibbert cannot. And would probably make him look worse than he is (like he does our PF's now).
Again, I am not against upgrading any position. I would start with the more significant ones first instead of sinking a ton of money into a postion that is really decent and could be a lot better next year.

Add Iggy and a quality pg and this team would be primed for a long run!

beast23
04-02-2011, 10:56 PM
Add Iggy and a quality pg and this team would be primed for a long run!

You add Iggy and a quality PG then this team will have a very strong resemblance to a donut... very tasty on the outside with a large hole in the center. And that's because you have done nothing, absolutely nothing, to improve the post defense.

I'm not going to argue whether or not Smith is an elite player... I hate the use of the word elite because it is so ambiguous.

How I will respond is simply by this. I don't think you have an appreciation at all that the game of basketball is played on two ends of the floor. At any rate, ignoring Smith's talents on the defensive end of the court seems to support my view.

If you do have an appreciation of the defensive aspects of the game, then you would certainly be forced to admit that the Pacers defense in and around the post is at best "lacking". And if you have that appreciation, can you name me more than 2-3 PFs that play better all-around defense, either in the post or even away from the basket, than Josh Smith? Of course, if you don't have that appreciation, then our discussion is moot.

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 11:03 PM
You add Iggy and a quality PG then this team will have a very strong resemblance to a donut... very tasty on the outside with a large hole in the center. And that's because you have done nothing, absolutely nothing, to improve the post defense.

I'm not going to argue whether or not Smith is an elite player... I hate the use of the word elite because it is so ambiguous.

How I will respond is simply by this. I don't think you have an appreciation at all that the game of basketball is played on two ends of the floor. At any rate, ignoring Smith's talents on the defensive end of the court seems to support my view.

If you do have an appreciation of the defensive aspects of the game, then you would certainly be forced to admit that the Pacers defense in and around the post is at best "lacking". And if you have that appreciation, can you name me more than 2-3 PFs that play better all-around defense, either in the post or even away from the basket, than Josh Smith? Of course, if you don't have that appreciation, then our discussion is moot.

Hey the Pacers "D" sucks. Smith is a quality defensive PF but anyone would look better playing next to Horford who is the real stud on that team. What I am saying is Hibbert is terrible on the defensive end and Smith will not look so good next to him. I dont think he would lift Hibberts game - I think Hibbert would hinder his. So really, adding Smith would not help our team as much as Iggy and a pg who can "D". Iggy is a great defensive player.
Our PF position is not bad. Neither is our SF. The other 3 positions are almost to horrible to watch. And I dont see any of them getting better anytime soon.
If you want to talk about trading for Horford, I am all in on that one. Maybe Varajeo or another Defensive stopper at the 5.

ThA HoyA
04-02-2011, 11:17 PM
Smith is a great help defender and protects the basket with just his presence.... Would be a huge upgrade

Eleazar
04-02-2011, 11:28 PM
In my opinion if it isn't a can't miss opportunity I would rather sit on what we have as far as starters go. When I say can't miss I mean the player is better now and will be better than the player he is replacing 4 or 5 years from now.

The bench is a different story. I like what we have, but outside of one maybe two players a bench player isn't something you look at as a long term core player (of course with the exception of players still in their rookie contract).

beast23
04-02-2011, 11:30 PM
Smith is a great defender because he plays next to Horford? Look, Horford is a very good defender and he will help any PF defend better, but there is one thing you need to understand. Josh Smith was acknowledged as a great defender in each of the three years before Horford was ever in the league.

So Smith was already a great defender, without Horford. So who is to say that it is not Horford that is benefitting from Smith's strong defensive abilities? In reality, I believe both sides of the statement are true... both players seem to compliment each other very well.

I would agree with one thing you have stated. Our PF position is not that bad... on the offensive end of the floor only. It is very inconsistent on the defensive end of the floor.

Josh Smith is every bit the defender at the PF position that Igoudala is at SG. I like Igoudala because he is such a tenacious defender and is also able to guard some PGs and quite a few SFs. Smith is also a tenacious defender and is also able to guard quite a few SFs as well as covering PFs / shorter centers that are playing center. Both of these players are about as good as it gets on the defensive end of the floor.

If we had Danny in foul trouble or injured, no problem. Shift Smith to SF and insert Hansbrough. Or, shift Igoudala to SF and insert George. Either works, depending on the matchup and the offense that might be required against the particular opponent.

As far as some of our youngsters getting better at defense, I see our perimeter defense improving through George as much more likely than our interior defense improving through Hansbrough or McRoberts. I fully expect George to have a "breakout season" next year on the defensive end of the court. I think he is that close. He has a few problems with ticky-tack fouls and decision-making, but I think many of his problems will be corrected with a few more months of experience and a little more respect from the officials that he will surely get beyond his rookie year.

vnzla81
04-02-2011, 11:36 PM
I don't know but does anybody here really think that a team with DC,PG,Danny,JS and Roy is better than Hinrich,JJ,Marvin,JS and Horford? Like I said before, we need to improve the PG and SG position if we really want to make some noise, I don't see PF,C or SF as top priority.

troyc11a
04-02-2011, 11:48 PM
I don't know but does anybody here really think that a team with DC,PG,Danny,JS and Roy is better than Hinrich,JJ,Marvin,JS and Horford? Like I said before, we need to improve the PG and SG position if we really want to make some noise, I don't see PF,C or SF as top priority.

This is what I have been trying to say. I still cannot understand why so many on this board want to improve the best position on the team first. This makes no sense whatsoever. Even if I agree (and I dont) that Smith is an elite PF, then adding him to our team still only puts us vying for the 8th seed and we just sunk millions into our best position.
Like you said. ATL's lineup is waaaaaaaay better than ours. If Smith was so good then why would he be available? The answer: the grass always looks better on the other side. Keep Smith and ad a pg/sg/c that can defend and we have a real team here.

xBulletproof
04-02-2011, 11:48 PM
I don't see what you see because there will be too many players coming up for their second contracts in a few short years and there will be no money to sign all of them. This team needs to avoid the situation where Donnie had to let Brad Miller go because he had to resign Bender, Foster, and Reggie. So Smith, Igoudala, Granger will just break the bank.

Soooo we're just supposed to sit still and do nothing to improve the team and stay pat as a .500 team next year (hopefully)?

Terrible reasoning, and plan.

When you're closer to 10 games under .500 than being .500 you don't stand pat unless you've got a Kobe, Wade, or Lebron in their rookie years who will single handedly drag you out of the .500 muck just by improving. Do we have that guy? Doubt it.

speakout4
04-02-2011, 11:54 PM
Soooo we're just supposed to sit still and do nothing to improve the team and stay pat as a .500 team next year (hopefully)?

Terrible reasoning, and plan.

When you're closer to 10 games under .500 than being .500 you don't stand pat unless you've got a Kobe, Wade, or Lebron in their rookie years who will single handedly drag you out of the .500 muck just by improving. Do we have that guy? Doubt it.
I'm not saying standing pat but you make sure that the guys you have been grooming are not going somewhere else. You always seem to have have some editorial comment about other people's lacking the intelligence you attribute to yourself. .

Doddage
04-02-2011, 11:54 PM
If only there was a way to get both Josh Smith and Iggy... :homerdrool:

xBulletproof
04-02-2011, 11:56 PM
This is what I have been trying to say. I still cannot understand why so many on this board want to improve the best position on the team first. This makes no sense whatsoever. Even if I agree (and I dont) that Smith is an elite PF, then adding him to our team still only puts us vying for the 8th seed and we just sunk millions into our best position.
Like you said. ATL's lineup is waaaaaaaay better than ours. If Smith was so good then why would he be available? The answer: the grass always looks better on the other side. Keep Smith and ad a pg/sg/c that can defend and we have a real team here.

PF is not our best position, and Josh Smith is light years ahead of Tyler.

Smith could be available because they have near 70 million dollars tied up in just 7 players. They still need 8 more signings and are looking at spending way, way too much money for a team that's as bad off as we are financially I'd guess. It's not because he sucks or for any other reason.

Besides that you keep acting like this one thing is the only thing we'll ever do. We're far from being a contender and to get there it's going to take a series of moves. Nobody is going to just hand us Wade/Lebron/Kobe to help us out. Adding a guy who commands respect in the paint on defense, is an All NBA defender and can score, handle the ball and pass well is one hell of a step in that direction. No single move we make is going to make us contenders, I don't care what position it's at.

xBulletproof
04-03-2011, 12:01 AM
I'm not saying standing pat but you make sure that the guys you have been grooming are not going somewhere else. You always seem to have have some editorial comment about other people's lacking the intelligence you attribute to yourself. .

Well if we're not standing pat, then we can trade the one's we don't plan on signing before that day comes, yes? Not seeing the problem.

As for editorial comment deal, it's my opinion, so of course I'm going to think it's right. It's mine. Just as anyone else thinks their own is correct, and mine is wrong. If you'd rather not hear someone defend their own stance on something, you probably shouldn't be on the internet. Or talk to people. Or watch TV.

I've seen you make a couple snide comments about me over the last year, and I've ignored them for the most part. Don't know what to tell you man, you seem to take me a bit too personal. Ignore function works well.

speakout4
04-03-2011, 12:05 AM
As for editorial comment deal, it's my opinion, so of course I'm going to think it's right. It's mine. Just as anyone else thinks their own is correct, and mine is wrong. If you'd rather not hear someone defend their own stance on something, you probably shouldn't be on the internet. Or talk to people. Or watch TV.

I've seen you make a couple snide comments about me over the last year, and I've ignored them for the most part. Don't know what to tell you man, you seem to take me a bit too personal. Ignore function works well.
Absolutely and you are the only one on this board that I ever put on ignore and now you're going back on. You can do the same.

beast23
04-03-2011, 12:07 AM
Well if we're not standing pat, then we can trade the one's we don't plan on signing before that day comes, yes? Not seeing the problem....

cdash must have been busy tonight, so I came in as a self-annointed middle-inning reliever.

I'm glad our closer has arrived. And, may the force be with you. As for me, I'm going to bed.

xBulletproof
04-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Absolutely and you are the only one on this board that I ever put on ignore and now you're going back on. You can do the same.

.... but I don't need to do the same. I'm not the one that's cranky because the other person has an opinion. Hope it works out for you though, honestly.

In fact, I'd say I dealt with your snide comments better than you deal with me having an opinion. I must have met you and did something to you personally, or said something that really hurt your soul. I don't get it. There's a few people I'd understand putting me on ignore, vnzla because we couldn't agree on the color of the sky, I swear, and Sookie at one point when I nitpicked multiple arguments with her over a 2 day span and 2 were a misunderstanding that was my fault completely. And maybe a couple of other people. You, you just seem to have a real personal issue with me like I met you and ruined your life or something. Get some thicker skin fella. It's the internet. You're not hurting my feelings that I'm your lone ignore victim. Save yourself the strain on your ticker and cool down. This isn't that deep.

:shrug:

xBulletproof
04-03-2011, 12:11 AM
cdash must have been busy tonight, so I came in as a self-annointed middle-inning reliever.

I'm glad our closer has arrived. And, may the force be with you. As for me, I'm going to bed.

A baseball, and Star Wars reference all the same post. That alone is deserving of a thanks. :dance:

troyc11a
04-03-2011, 12:22 AM
PF is not our best position, and Josh Smith is light years ahead of Tyler.

Smith could be available because they have near 70 million dollars tied up in just 7 players. They still need 8 more signings and are looking at spending way, way too much money for a team that's as bad off as we are financially I'd guess. It's not because he sucks or for any other reason.

Besides that you keep acting like this one thing is the only thing we'll ever do. We're far from being a contender and to get there it's going to take a series of moves. Nobody is going to just hand us Wade/Lebron/Kobe to help us out. Adding a guy who commands respect in the paint on defense, is an All NBA defender and can score, handle the ball and pass well is one hell of a step in that direction. No single move we make is going to make us contenders, I don't care what position it's at.

How many All-Star games has Smith played in? He is not light years ahead of any starting PF in the league. He is a little above average. Not many teams will be in the hunt for an overpaid PF who has attitude problems.
Again, concerning the finances, we have no idea what the CBA will be. We may be able to get 1-2 good pieces this summer. I hope we can, I just dont see it after we re-sign/sign bench players. WE already have 1 highly overpaid player in DG. Dont' want another.
I would take Horford and Hinrich off their hands though!

xBulletproof
04-03-2011, 12:34 AM
How many All-Star games has Smith played in? He is not light years ahead of any starting PF in the league. He is a little above average. Not many teams will be in the hint for an overpaid PF who has attitude problems.

Based on this argument, you shouldn't want Andre Iguodala either. He hasn't played in an All Star game. In fact I'd say Smith and Iguodala are very comparable in skill sets except Smith is a much better shot blocker, and their standing relative to their positions is damn near equal. Both are above average on offense, but excel at defense. I'm not contradicting myself however, I've been very vocal of wanting Iguodala as well.

In fact, now that I think about it I have no idea how you can support getting one, and not want the other.

troyc11a
04-03-2011, 12:41 AM
Based on this argument, you shouldn't want Andre Iguodala either. He hasn't played in an All Star game. In fact I'd say Smith and Iguodala are very comparable in skill sets except Smith is a much better shot blocker, and their standing relative to their positions is damn near equal. Both are above average on offense, but excel at defense. I'm not contradicting myself however, I've been very vocal of wanting Iguodala as well.

In fact, now that I think about it I have no idea how you can support getting one, and not want the other.

It is really easy to understand how Iggy would help our team more than Smith. WE get nothing out of the 2 spot - NOTHING at all. George is 2-3 years away.
We have 2 realiable PF's who are getting better.
So we really need Iggy. We could use Smith. Big difference.
At least we can agree on Iggy. I say we need a pg worse than a PF too. They are just so darn hard to come by.

xBulletproof
04-03-2011, 12:49 AM
It is really easy to understand how Iggy would help our team more than Smith. WE get nothing out of the 2 spot - NOTHING at all. George is 2-3 years away.
We have 2 realiable PF's who are getting better.
So we really need Iggy. We could use Smith. Big difference.
At least we can agree on Iggy. I say we need a pg worse than a PF too. They are just so darn hard to come by.

We really need Iggy over anyone else? For what? We're not going to be a contender the next year or two regardless. Do we really need to fill a job we expect PG24 to fill by the time we will matter anyway? George could easily come in and average 13 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and 1 block next year. That wouldn't even take groundbreaking improvement. Hell, he'd probably average 12 points per game now if he could catch and shoot. He hits his jumpers on the move, but catch and shoot I don't think he's ever had to do in his life. He's always been the guy with the ball in his hand. Once he figures out how to catch and shoot this offseason, and adds some strength he should be an average starting SG next year.

We'll have only 1 PF unless McRoberts decides to come back, since he is a free agent. Even if he does, I wouldn't argue with him getting the backup C minutes against most teams anyway.

troyc11a
04-03-2011, 12:54 AM
We really need Iggy over anyone else? For what? We're not going to be a contender the next year or two regardless. Do we really need to fill a job we expect PG24 to fill by the time we will matter anyway? George could easily come in and average 13 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and 1 block next year. That wouldn't even take groundbreaking improvement. Hell, he'd probably average 12 points per game now if he could catch and shoot. He hits his jumpers on the move, but catch and shoot I don't think he's ever had to do in his life. He's always been the guy with the ball in his hand. Once he figures out how to catch and shoot this offseason, and adds some strength he should be an average starting SG next year.

We'll have only 1 PF unless McRoberts decides to come back, since he is a free agent. Even if he does, I wouldn't argue with him getting the backup C minutes against most teams anyway.

Everyone in the NBA would score more if ther were better at the "Catch and shoot."
I dont see any fight in George. He looks like a guy who is happy to be paid and just plays. I know he is young. But I am not sure the "fight" is something that is worked into you. You either have it or you dont. Right now, not only does he not have it - He looks like he's never seen it.
Great talent that could just as easily be wasted as going for 13/5 next year.
So is there ANY position on this roster that you think needs improvement other than the 4? You seem to act like we have a group of hall of famers running around out there (lol)

MyFavMartin
04-03-2011, 01:53 AM
Smith brings shotblocking, but his game IQ isn't great, and he doesn't like contact on the offensive end of the court, hence, he likes to stay on the outside and shoot the three, which he's not too good at. He seems aloof and has had previous attitude problems. He's a bit of a tweener of 3/4 and doesn't have the beef that I'd like to see paired with Roy.

cdash
04-03-2011, 03:09 AM
Smith brings shotblocking, but his game IQ isn't great, and he doesn't like contact on the offensive end of the court, hence, he likes to stay on the outside and shoot the three, which he's not too good at. He seems aloof and has had previous attitude problems. He's a bit of a tweener of 3/4 and doesn't have the beef that I'd like to see paired with Roy.

He has greatly reduced his three point shooting the last two years compared to his overconfidence before then with his outside shooting. He's not a tweener at the 3/4. He's a 4 who can guard 3s, so he is just versatile. Roy doesn't necessarily need beef next to him. He needs a defensive minded PF next to him. Either that's a beefy Varejao-type or an athletic rim protecting shot blocker like Josh Smith. Josh Smith has a more advanced offensive game than Varejao and would benefit from Roy's passing ability for dunks and put backs.

Pacerized
04-03-2011, 10:15 AM
Given the choice betweeen Smith and Nene, I'd take Nene or a player like him. I think we need a 4 who can move over to 5 over a 4 who can guard 3's. If we could get Smith for the right price I'd still say do it. I'm hoping the new cba puts us in a position to help a team out that has to shed salary to get to the new cap, so we can be nice enough to take a star player off their hands for a pick.

yoadknux
04-03-2011, 11:11 AM
How many All-Star games has Smith played in? He is not light years ahead of any starting PF in the league. He is a little above average. Not many teams will be in the hunt for an overpaid PF who has attitude problems.
Again, concerning the finances, we have no idea what the CBA will be. We may be able to get 1-2 good pieces this summer. I hope we can, I just dont see it after we re-sign/sign bench players. WE already have 1 highly overpaid player in DG. Dont' want another.
I would take Horford and Hinrich off their hands though!
So first you claim PF is our best position... Now you say that Granger is Highly Overpaid?
Wow. :rolleyes:

troyc11a
04-03-2011, 01:18 PM
So first you claim PF is our best position... Now you say that Granger is Highly Overpaid?
Wow. :rolleyes:

Granger is paid like a "Batman" but plays like a "Robin." This has been suggested on this board by many. That is not a controversial statement at all. Granger is a good player being paid like a great one.

BringJackBack
04-03-2011, 01:30 PM
..Except for the part where he isn't overpaid. "Batmen" get paid max contracts. Danny is not getting paid a max contract. He's a good player getting paid like a good player.

purdue101
04-03-2011, 01:35 PM
Granger is paid like a "Batman" but plays like a "Robin." This has been suggested on this board by many. That is not a controversial statement at all. Granger is a good player being paid like a great one.

Really? I agree that Granger is forced to play as Batman when he is a Robin, but his pay is comparable to a Robin (10-12M per season). Most elite players in this league make anywhere from 15-20M per season, Danny is well below that.

In fact, I would venture to say Danny is slightly underpaid. Look at the Spurs - their franchise guy makes 18M per season and the Robin's (Parker/Manu) are making 12-13M. Boozer was just signed as a second fiddle to 14M per season. Josh Smith & Horford are making 12M plus per year.

I'm not a huge Danny Granger fan, and I'm not even certain he's the 2nd best player on a contender, but I can recognize his value is worth what he is being paid, if not above..

yoadknux
04-03-2011, 02:01 PM
Granger is paid like a "Batman" but plays like a "Robin." This has been suggested on this board by many. That is not a controversial statement at all. Granger is a good player being paid like a great one.
The different salaries of the "Batmen" of the legaue:
Kobe Bryant LA Lakers $24,806,250
Pau Gasol LA Lakers $17,822,187
Carmelo Anthony New York $17,149,243
Dwight Howard Orlando $16,509,600
Amare Stoudemire New York $16,486,611
Chris Paul New Orleans $14,940,152
Deron Williams New Jersey $14,940,152
LeBron James Miami $14,500,000

Granger's Salary: $10,973,202
He's not overpaid. Wanna see overpaid?
Rashard Lewis Washington $20,514,000
Michael Redd Milwaukee $18,300,000
Andrei Kirilenko Utah $17,822,187
Vince Carter Phoenix $17,300,000
Zach Randolph Memphis $17,333,333
Joe Johnson Atlanta $16,324,500 (haha, JJ is gonna make more money than Jordan)

beezer615
04-03-2011, 04:03 PM
When I think of our Kryptonite, I think of the Hawks and specifically Josh Smith. With or without new and improved Tyler. Tyler can bang with bigs, but Josh can fly over him in a single bound and swat shots. 2 completely different games. it would be awesome to have them both. Throw draft picks at em...

pwee31
04-03-2011, 04:06 PM
I think Josh Smith would bring a lot of positive to this team. Defense gets better, he takes the pressure off of Roy of being the only true shot blocker. He's athletic, and a high flier to excite the fans. He's still really young coming straight out of high school, and he's an upgrade in talent.

Not sure what it takes to get him, but it's something you have to look at.

I think the Hawks are going to ask for a young center if they do decide to move him, b/c they would like to move Horford to his natural position of PF.

Do I move Hibbert for Smith... no. A 1st round pick, filler and space...absolutely.

troyc11a
04-03-2011, 04:33 PM
..Except for the part where he isn't overpaid. "Batmen" get paid max contracts. Danny is not getting paid a max contract. He's a good player getting paid like a good player.

The next 3 years DG is getting paid = $12mill, $13mill, and $14mill.

I know it is not a max contract, but it is close enough with the current CBA. I am not sure what Danny could have maxed out at anyway. That's still a ton of money and cap space for a guy who doesnt lead! I bet we can all list about 10 players making significantly less who we would trade him for in a heartbeat (excluding rookie contracts would be a little more difficult but possible)

BringJackBack
04-03-2011, 04:51 PM
The next 3 years DG is getting paid = $12mill, $13mill, and $14mill.

I know it is not a max contract, but it is close enough with the current CBA. I am not sure what Danny could have maxed out at anyway. That's still a ton of money and cap space for a guy who doesnt lead! I bet we can all list about 10 players making significantly less who we would trade him for in a heartbeat (excluding rookie contracts would be a little more difficult but possible)

I just tried..

Rajon Rondo
Manu Ginobli (But he took a pay cut because of loyalty, age, and injury concerns. He could have gotten a HUGE contract with another team if he wanted to)
Monta Ellis

Heck I can't even think of 5. Maybe throw in Paul Milsap.

MyFavMartin
04-03-2011, 05:07 PM
What would Josh Smith's salary do to our resigning/extension of our youth?

Jrod Jones
04-03-2011, 05:09 PM
Troy, the things you are saying are really starting to irritate me.

- Granger's contract is very fair (if not excellent) value.
- Granger might be forced into the "Batman" role (your use of this metaphor is awful) but his contract is that of a 3rd or 2nd option
- Josh Smith is an elite PF
- Smith is leaps and bounds (literally and figuratively) ahead of Tyler
- PF is NOT our strongest position
- Not playing in an allstar game does not put you on the same level as others who have not played in all star games
- You see no fight in George? I don't even know what to say to you

And those are the more "legitimate" things you have said. I am not going to even comment on things you have said like preferring Hinrich for our team then Smith. Actually, I just typed that and got upset.

Kirk Hinrich the past 3 years
2009 10/4/3 1stl 43%/79% 30min
2010 11/5/3 1stl 41%/75% 33min
2011 10/4/3 1stl 44%/75% 30min

Darren Collison the past 2 years
2010 13/6/3 1stl 48%/85% 27min
2011 13/5/3 1stl 45%/87% 30min

Also, HINRICH IS GETTING PAID 9mill THIS YEAR, plus the 6 year age difference DC is in a different league than Hinrich. Hinrich is an awful fit for our team! With DC, Price and then trying to squeeze some occasional minutes to Lance there really is no room for another backup point guard (yes, Hinrich would be our backup)

Now look, I am not saying that Tyler is not great. I love his hustle and what he brings to this team. I also think that his ceiling is a lot higher then most people. BUT you cannot disregard the possibility of adding an explosive Offensive and Defensive who is not getting paid unreasonably.

Gamble1
04-03-2011, 05:17 PM
What would Josh Smith's salary do to our resigning/extension of our youth?
Depends on the new CBA. As it is currently it shouldn't hinder us from resigning Collison and Hibbert to decent contracts. The thing to keep in mind is that Josh Smith is signed for 2 more years after this season. If we keep Poseys contract and let it expire then we should have no problem signing Hibbert to an extension.

Eleazar
04-03-2011, 11:12 PM
Depends on the new CBA. As it is currently it shouldn't hinder us from resigning Collison and Hibbert to decent contracts. The thing to keep in mind is that Josh Smith is signed for 2 more years after this season. If we keep Poseys contract and let it expire then we should have no problem signing Hibbert to an extension.

Under the current CBA we would technically be able to re-sign everyone. Depending on how far over the luxury tax Simon is willing to go is what really decides, and we don't know how much he would be willing to spend.

I doubt we would be able to re-sign them all under a new CBA. I don't know if there will be a hard cap, but I am certain it won't be as easy to re-sign every player.

PacerPride33
04-04-2011, 12:18 AM
Would love to get Josh Smith if we didn't have to give up main core. I do think we have a better chance at landing Jefferson though

Jared Sullinger
04-04-2011, 01:13 AM
If Atlanta does consider moving Josh Smith, and wants to lower their payroll in the process, I'd happily give them Paul George and our 1st round pick. That's a great young prospect, a mid-round 1st and they'd shed $8.5M.

Gamble1
04-04-2011, 09:17 AM
Under the current CBA we would technically be able to re-sign everyone. Depending on how far over the luxury tax Simon is willing to go is what really decides, and we don't know how much he would be willing to spend.

I doubt we would be able to re-sign them all under a new CBA. I don't know if there will be a hard cap, but I am certain it won't be as easy to re-sign every player.
IF you are talking core guys then we should be able to sign Collison, Hibbert back with a question mark for Hans.

I always go back to how the how much the current league payroll is. IMO if half the league is operating at around 60-70 mill you not going to see a HUGE shift in cap space. Most of the teams with power ie big markets aren't going to let the small market dictate how the operate. Do I know for sure? NO but all the gloom and dome is salesmanship IMO and I am not buying it.

pacergod2
04-04-2011, 11:24 AM
cdash, I didn't want to thank every single post of yours, so I am just writing a new post on this. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of JSmoove.

- Smith's athelticism around the rim is ridiculous. Our offensive rebounding would improve dramatically. His slashing ability paired with Hibbert's passing (and hopefully McRoberts's as well) would be awesome. The weakside capability/effectiveness of Smith is as good as any other player in the league.

- Smith is an active rebounder, which is exactly what we need around the slow footed Hibbert. Hibbert will rebound the ball high off the rim moreso, than travel ten feet to get a board. Smith would be able to make the rebounding reads and basically rebound whatever Hibbert can't get to.

- We would have two top five shot blockers in the front court, with plus shot blockers at SF (Granger) and SG (Rush and hopefully George). The length and athelticism he gives us on the defensive side of the ball would be such a marked improvement that he would be well worth his contract to us on just the defensive end of the ball.

- He has a versatile offensive game, as long as he stays within about 15-18 feet of the basket. He becomes much less effective the further he gets from the rim. I love how he can take just about any PF off the dribble. He is a coach's dream in the pick and roll, IMO.

- He is absolutely better than Tyler. I would make Tyler the centerpiece around trading for Smith. Tyler and our 2011 First would give them about $8-10M in savings, depending on what they do with the pick. Atlanta needs to get Horford some help at center, which could be a foundation for making a deal. Tyson Chandler, Kwame Brown, Sam Dalembert, Greg Oden, Yao Ming. There are going to be a lot of centers available this off-season. The Hawks need to move Horford to PF, sign a better center, and bring Hans off the bench. That would keep Williams at SF, who is an excellent defender. Atlanta doesn't get killed defensively if they move Smith because they have plus defenders at 2-4, plus whichever center they would bring in would give them a plus defender at the five as well. They can afford to move Smith, because he would return the most in a trade and they won't trade Horford. Williams doesn't have a ton of value now that he is getting paid around $7M per.

- As for contracts, you have to pay the better players accordingly. Josh Smith is such a game changing player, because of the things he is "elite" at. His athleticism is as good as any PF in the league. He is an elite shot blocker. His athleticism and ability to read player movements, allow him to get as many steals and weakside blocks as he gets. I have said for as long as I have been on this board that Smith would be a great compliment to Hibbert.

- I think that we can make some serious noise with a player like Smith. He puts an athletic force between Granger and Hibbert. I think Smith compliments Granger just as much as he compliments Hibbert. Granger's perimeter scoring and outside shooting helps take the scoring burden off Smith and he will get easy looks off of the attention Granger gets. Granger isn't the quickest player, but wouldn't look nearly as bad when he gets blown by with two shot blockers like that behind him. Granger would also get a lot more weakside blocks with players being so concerned about where Hibbert and Smith are.

- Smith would also let Collison off the hook a little more defensively. Again for the same rim protection he would give everyone. This would allow Collison to play the lanes more for steals, which kills a team defensively if they don't have the protection behind them. That is why Allen Iverson had three and a half plus-defenders on the floor with him at all times. It afforded him the luxury of playing passing lanes instead of manning up the other PG.

Sorry so long, but there are so many reasons why we should look at Josh Smith, that it is incredulous so many would not want him here. We would get more out of Josh Smith than the Hawks get from him, just based on the rotation make-up for both teams. I would not want to give up Granger or Hibbert for him though. He compliments both players so well that it is the reason behind wanting him so much. Hansborough, Rush, George, and Collison are all very likeable, good players. I would give any of them up for Smith, because you can't bring in better players without giving something of value up. If we could send Hans to ATL for Smith, and George to PHI for Iggy, I think you have to consider making those deals work. I think Rush probably has the least value to other teams, but he also would be much easier to sign cheaply going forward of our young guys. It makes sense to keep him around on the second unit. Same with McRoberts. I think Hans and George will command more money in the future and have the value to get a solid return.

Sorry so long.

Professor S
04-04-2011, 11:54 AM
- He is absolutely better than Tyler. I would make Tyler the centerpiece around trading for Smith. Tyler and our 2011 First would give them about $8-10M in savings, depending on what they do with the pick. Atlanta needs to get Horford some help at center, which could be a foundation for making a deal. Tyson Chandler, Kwame Brown, Sam Dalembert, Greg Oden, Yao Ming. There are going to be a lot of centers available this off-season. The Hawks need to move Horford to PF, sign a better center, and bring Hans off the bench. That would keep Williams at SF, who is an excellent defender. Atlanta doesn't get killed defensively if they move Smith because they have plus defenders at 2-4, plus whichever center they would bring in would give them a plus defender at the five as well. They can afford to move Smith, because he would return the most in a trade and they won't trade Horford. Williams doesn't have a ton of value now that he is getting paid around $7M per.


While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Smith, and would love to bring him in, there is no way they will accept Hansbrough (who would be their backup PF behind an All-Star caliber Horford) and a mid-first round pick in a mediocre draft. I am sure they could find a better offer elsewhere.

pacergod2
04-04-2011, 11:57 AM
While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Smith, and would love to bring him in, there is no way they will accept Hansbrough (who would be their backup PF behind an All-Star caliber Horford) and a mid-first round pick in a mediocre draft. I am sure they could find a better offer elsewhere.

True. I was just throwing an idea out there that they may consider as the basis of a bigger, better deal. Maybe something with a third team that brings them a center.

Professor S
04-04-2011, 12:35 PM
True. I was just throwing an idea out there that they may consider as the basis of a bigger, better deal. Maybe something with a third team that brings them a center.

Fair enough. I would LOVE to get Smith and would give up Hans without blinking to do it but I can't imagine us swinging that without parting with Roy or getting a third team involved.

cdash
04-04-2011, 01:24 PM
cdash, I didn't want to thank every single post of yours, so I am just writing a new post on this. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of JSmoove.

- Smith's athelticism around the rim is ridiculous. Our offensive rebounding would improve dramatically. His slashing ability paired with Hibbert's passing (and hopefully McRoberts's as well) would be awesome. The weakside capability/effectiveness of Smith is as good as any other player in the league....

Didn't want to quote the whole post, but you summed up what I have been saying in about 15 different posts in one fell swoop.

xBulletproof
04-04-2011, 01:29 PM
While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Smith, and would love to bring him in, there is no way they will accept Hansbrough (who would be their backup PF behind an All-Star caliber Horford) and a mid-first round pick in a mediocre draft. I am sure they could find a better offer elsewhere.

Talent wise I agree they could get better offers. But their need is slashing salary. 70 million in 7 players for next year. They're near luxury tax area and they need 8 more players. If they're truly trying so save cash they wont have many options.

cdash
04-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Talent wise I agree they could get better offers. But their need is slashing salary. 70 million in 7 players for next year. They're near luxury tax area and they need 8 more players. If they're truly trying so save cash they wont have many options.

Just to add to this, while Horford's ideal position is probably power forward, he plays the bulk of his minutes at center for the Hawks.

Professor S
04-04-2011, 01:41 PM
Talent wise I agree they could get better offers. But their need is slashing salary. 70 million in 7 players for next year. They're near luxury tax area and they need 8 more players. If they're truly trying so save cash they wont have many options.

I'm no capologist so I wasn't aware of the Hawks issues in that regard. Perhaps the deal isn't as much of a pipe dream if they truly need to shed salary that badly. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

PacerPride33
04-04-2011, 02:37 PM
Would they look at McBob at Center? If so a S&T could be worked out. Add Rush who would have a great shot at starting at small forward for them. Add in 2011 first and I'd even consider a protected 2012 first

cdash
04-04-2011, 02:40 PM
Look we are going to have to give quality to get quality, that's all there is to it. We aren't going to get Smith or anyone else with any real value for our leftovers. The guess here is that Atlanta would ask for Hibbert/1st initially, at least.

Trophy
04-04-2011, 03:32 PM
If the Hawks would want Roy rather than Danny, I'd do it still, but then I'd want us to go out and get Al Jefferson to play next to Josh Smith.

Jefferson and Horford are pretty similar players so our front court would be pretty similar to what the Hawks have now.

Isaac
04-04-2011, 04:33 PM
If the Hawks would want Roy rather than Danny, I'd do it still, but then I'd want us to go out and get Al Jefferson to play next to Josh Smith.

Jefferson and Horford are pretty similar players so our front court would be pretty similar to what the Hawks have now.

If we could get a front court with Al and Josh without giving up Danny we would compete for a top 4 spot in the east. Find a way to add Mayo as well... that'd be exciting

Gamble1
04-04-2011, 04:39 PM
If we could get a front court with Al and Josh without giving up Danny we would compete for a top 4 spot in the east. Find a way to add Mayo as well... that'd be exciting
Would people rather have Iguodala or Al Jefferson. IF we got Iggy then maybe sign a defensive center like Dalembert to a 6 million dollar contract. Our defense would be really good if we made those two moves.

troyc11a
04-04-2011, 04:39 PM
If we could get a front court with Al and Josh without giving up Danny we would compete for a top 4 spot in the east. Find a way to add Mayo as well... that'd be exciting

I'm not trying to be negative but I am wondering why a frontcourt of Al, Josh and Danny would excite you when Atlanta has not won anything with Horford, Josh, and Joe Johnson (who is better than Danny)?
Is it because of Mayo that you would be excited? Or is it the frontcourt? I am not arguing, just asking.

troyc11a
04-04-2011, 04:42 PM
Would people rather have Iguodala or Al Jefferson. IF we got Iggy then maybe sign a defensive center like Dalembert to a 6 million dollar contract. Our defense would be really good if we made those two moves.

I would definitely rather have Iggy and a Defensive center. That would give us 2 defensive stoppers. I like Al but he is all offense and his weight problems scare me.

Honestly, I would be thrilled with a defensive 7'0 center alone and maybe a pg with strong defensive skills. Don't know who is available there though.

cdash
04-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Would people rather have Iguodala or Al Jefferson. IF we got Iggy then maybe sign a defensive center like Dalembert to a 6 million dollar contract. Our defense would be really good if we made those two moves.

Iguodala 100 times out of 100. Doubt Philly trades him though, besides the Evan Turner factor they have no reason to do so.

Trophy
04-04-2011, 04:43 PM
I'm not trying to be negative but I am wondering why a frontcourt of Al, Josh and Danny would excite you when Atlanta has not won anything with Horford, Josh, and Joe Johnson (who is better than Danny)?
Is it because of Mayo that you would be excited? Or is it the frontcourt? I am not arguing, just asking.

Well adding Al, Josh, and OJ being a playoff contender would sure as hell be better than being an 8th seed by default below .500.

Collison/Mayo/George/Smith/Jefferson is the lineup I'd be happy with.

It would be something we can build from.

We have to be a solid playoff team before we get ahead of ourselves.

pacergod2
04-04-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't want anything to do with OJ Mayo or Al Jefferson, unless we get them for cheap, i.e. cap relief and spare parts.

They play little to no defense. Nor do they care to. No Thanks.

Gamble1
04-04-2011, 04:58 PM
Iguodala 100 times out of 100. Doubt Philly trades him though, besides the Evan Turner factor they have no reason to do so.
Well I knew you would say that....;)

They may want to cut salary but they would want a pretty good package for Iggy. IF we put two first round picks on the table that may swing things.

Next question. Would you rather have Josh Smith or Iggy?

I ask this because I highly doubt we can get both.

Hicks
04-04-2011, 05:01 PM
Josh Smith would immediately become our starting PF if he arrived in town tomorrow night.

But with that said, I'm not in love with his game, either. Not unless I have several people tell me that he's really good at guarding big men on the low block. I've always thought of him as a terrific weak side defender, but nothing special one-on-one in the post. He's not exactly an ideally-sized PF, though he does have really good hops.

Jrod Jones
04-04-2011, 05:10 PM
6'9'' 240 is a pretty excellent sized PF when you factor in his athleticism

xBulletproof
04-04-2011, 05:50 PM
Josh Smith would immediately become our starting PF if he arrived in town tomorrow night.

But with that said, I'm not in love with his game, either. Not unless I have several people tell me that he's really good at guarding big men on the low block. I've always thought of him as a terrific weak side defender, but nothing special one-on-one in the post. He's not exactly an ideally-sized PF, though he does have really good hops.

I think this size issue comes from how big he was coming out of high school. He looked to be SG/SF size. No more. He's grown since then but I don't think perception changes so easily.

That's my guess. 6'9 and 240 is fine for a PF.

Hicks
04-04-2011, 05:52 PM
6'9'' 240 is a pretty excellent sized PF when you factor in his athleticism

I don't know. He looks 6'9" as much as Tyler looks 6'9".

Jared Sullinger
04-04-2011, 05:56 PM
He measured 6'7" barefoot, 6'8.25" in shoes. Of course, that was seven years ago and he was 18 years old at the time. Tyler was 6'8.25" barefoot, 6'9.5" in shoes.

The Jackson shimmy
04-04-2011, 06:22 PM
Gamble1-

Dalembert is an interesting name and one that crossed my mind the
other day when thinking through reasonably priced, athletic 'bigs'
whom could back up Hibbs at the 5 and play some sparse mins at
4 in a pinch and will be available.

He's a bit older (at almost 30) than is ideal. But he's about as good
a fit as their is in terms of size, skill-set and importantly, his
likely price tag.

troyc11a
04-04-2011, 06:50 PM
Gamble1-

Dalembert is an interesting name and one that crossed my mind the
other day when thinking through reasonably priced, athletic 'bigs'
whom could back up Hibbs at the 5 and play some sparse mins at
4 in a pinch and will be available.

He's a bit older (at almost 30) than is ideal. But he's about as good
a fit as their is in terms of size, skill-set and importantly, his
likely price tag.

I dont think 30 is bad at all considering how this team needs some veteran leadership. IDK if Dalembert is a leader or not. Isnt he the one that used to get made fun of for being a little lazy? I might have him mixed up with someone else but this is more than a few years back.

ballism
04-04-2011, 07:25 PM
I'm know I've mentioned Dalembert myself before too, but I'm a bit pessimistic since I think someone might overpay him. Overall, far from impressive performance during his current contract. But the last few months, he's been tearing it up.

I wonder what salary he will command. At midlevel would be a nice signing. Otherwise I'd rather look elsewhere.

cdash
04-04-2011, 07:34 PM
Well I knew you would say that....;)

They may want to cut salary but they would want a pretty good package for Iggy. IF we put two first round picks on the table that may swing things.

Next question. Would you rather have Josh Smith or Iggy?

I ask this because I highly doubt we can get both.

Josh Smith. I think he's such a great fit for this team. Out of any realistic option (i.e., not a superstar) he's probably my #1 target.

beast23
04-04-2011, 10:03 PM
Gamble1-

Dalembert is an interesting name and one that crossed my mind the
other day when thinking through reasonably priced, athletic 'bigs'
whom could back up Hibbs at the 5 and play some sparse mins at
4 in a pinch and will be available.

Dalembert will be a free agent, but is currently making 12.2M. I don't think he will be a reasonably priced backup at all. I think he will be way to expensive for a backup role and if acquired, would cause cap room dollars to run short in other areas of need.

Infinite MAN_force
04-04-2011, 11:52 PM
Dalembert will be a free agent, but is currently making 12.2M. I don't think he will be a reasonably priced backup at all. I think he will be way to expensive for a backup role and if acquired, would cause cap room dollars to run short in other areas of need.

At Dalembert's age I doubt he commands that kind of money this time around.

Infinite MAN_force
04-05-2011, 12:23 AM
there are so many reasons why we should look at Josh Smith, that it is incredulous so many would not want him here. We would get more out of Josh Smith than the Hawks get from him, just based on the rotation make-up for both teams. I would not want to give up Granger or Hibbert for him though. He compliments both players so well that it is the reason behind wanting him so much. Hansborough, Rush, George, and Collison are all very likeable, good players. I would give any of them up for Smith, because you can't bring in better players without giving something of value up.

Sorry so long.

The bolded part is a very good point, particularly when talking about Hibbert. The appeal of going after Josh Smith is as much about "fit" as it is talent. Giving up Hibbert in the deal would negate a lot of the positive impact, because a lot of the appeal is about how well Josh Smith fits with Hibbert in your potential front court.

If you can get a player who is both a great "fit" and a big talent upgrade, you do it... no questions asked. However, I don't think Hansbrough and a first are enough to get the job done.

As stated in the original article, Atlanta is looking to shed cap space and hopefully fill multiple positions by trading Smith. Their weak positions are center... and point guard. Kirk Hinrich is their current starter and their backup Jeff Teauge has been a bit of a draft disappointment.

I think offering a deal of Collison and Hansbrough, with the added incentive of being able to absorb Josh Smith's contract for immediate cap relief, would be a fairly reasonable offer for Smith. This fills a position of need for Atlanta (PG), without sacrificing front court depth (Hansbrough), and giving them the cap flexibility to pursue a center in the off season, thusly allowing them to move Horford to PF as they have long desired.

This leaves the Pacers with a hole at PG, but with your first round pick still in hand, swinging a deal for a player like Raymond Felton becomes a reasonable possibility. You still have the capability to absorb contracts and provide immediate cap relief to another team. For Denver, who's PG of the future is clearly Ty Lawson, getting out of Felton's contract and simultaneously gaining a mid first round pick would be very appealing... a mid first round pick that could be used to acquire a new back up PG.

Felton, while a slight offensive downgrade from Collison, is a defensive upgrade, a better passing PG, and a better leader with more veteran experience... resulting in an overall upgrade of the position.

The current "arm chair GM" scenario I have laid out, would leave the Pacers with a starting lineup looking something like this...

Raymond Felton
Paul George
Danny Granger
Josh Smith
Roy Hibbert

That is an off season I would be pretty happy with. :D

Gamble1
04-05-2011, 09:56 AM
Gamble1-

Dalembert is an interesting name and one that crossed my mind the
other day when thinking through reasonably priced, athletic 'bigs'
whom could back up Hibbs at the 5 and play some sparse mins at
4 in a pinch and will be available.

He's a bit older (at almost 30) than is ideal. But he's about as good
a fit as their is in terms of size, skill-set and importantly, his
likely price tag.
Dalembert should be a piece we could add if we are willing to spend 6 to 7 million for a backup Center and for anyone who quotes his previous salary it was obvious that he was overpaid by the Sixers and he won't even sniff that type of contract again.

Dalembert would be an upgrade over Jeff Foster and he has the potential to be a starting Center if Hibbert is traded for Josh Smith. I wouldn't prefer that trade but he would be a good fit if we traded for Al Jefferson too. People think he is just a backup center now but his per 36 stats are the same as when he was with the sixers in 06-07. If we wanted to play old school tough nose ball then I wouldn't mind him on our team with a possible coach like Mike Brown who would utilize his strengths on defense.

Edit: I should also mention that a Tyler Dalembert combo would be pretty good as well.

pacergod2
04-05-2011, 10:56 AM
The problem I have had with Dalembert is that he always thinks he is a lot better than he really is. I have heard on numerous occassions that he gets pissy about his playing time, but he is not good enough to come in and make those commands here. Especially not over Hibbert who has a much better offensive game, but isn't quite as active defensively. I think Dalembert would want to go to one of the numerous teams in desperate need of a center where he will start. He won't be a Pacer.

Scot Pollard
04-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Please and thank you!

You can have whoever you want except Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough.

Honestly, I think Danny and Joe Johnson would make a solid 1 2 punch. Give them Danny and give us Josh Smith.