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MyFavMartin
03-30-2011, 02:55 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/51526461-87/corbin-jazz-utah-jefferson.html.csp#


Communication breaks up between Corbin, Jazz
By Brian T. Smith
The Salt Lake Tribune

First published Mar 29 2011 08:16PM
Updated 2 hours ago Updated Mar 30, 2011 10:40AM
First-year Jazz coach Tyrone Corbin has made two major decisions since taking over mid-season for Jerry Sloan. Neither went off smoothly, while both increased tension within a frustrated Utah team that is just 5-16 under Corbin, and was already dealing with the unexpected departures of Sloan and All-Star guard Deron Williams.

Corbin’s first change seemed innocent at the time. Swapping C.J. Miles for Raja Bell in Utah’s starting lineup March 14 against Philadelphia, Corbin made a move that Sloan had long resisted but made sense post-Williams. The Jazz’s offensive space was shrinking, with opponents caving in on big men Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap after Williams’ 3-point capability and ballhandling skills had been shipped to New Jersey; Miles’ perimeter-based shooting opened the floor up.

The only problem? Bell left a morning shootaround for the 76ers game thinking that he was starting, despite Corbin having already told the media that Miles was being promoted — an announcement that was made while an unknowing Bell received medical treatment. The veteran then entered the arena later that evening still believing he was in the first unit, only learning about his demotion as tipoff approached.

Bell, a widely respected veteran whom his teammates have referred to as the “glue” of their now-fractured club, did not take the news well, telling the media that the communication between him and Corbin could have been better.

That temporary fissure was a prelude to the break between Jefferson and Corbin on Monday, during a 100-95 overtime home loss to Washington. And it followed an OT loss to New Orleans last Thursday, which saw Corbin acknowledge that he made a coaching mistake by not having Millsap intentionally miss the second of two free throws as Utah led 104-103 with just 1.3 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter.

Corbin and Jefferson suited up for the Wizards contest having said the same thing for the last two weeks: The Jazz would continue to fight, be professional and produce their best effort, despite the fact that Utah was playing its way out of a postseason berth. Corbin refused to panic, go young and rebuild. Meanwhile, Jefferson entered Utah’s current six-game slide having played his best basketball of the year, at times single-handedly carrying his short-handed team on the offensive end and putting up All-Star-caliber numbers that shadowed his defensive deficiencies.

But after Utah scored an abysmal 30 points during the second half of a home loss Saturday to Dallas, the Jazz initially came out just as flat against Washington. Down 51-43 at halftime to the third-worst team in the NBA, Corbin suddenly decided to make the move that he had long resisted, hitting the rebuild button and putting rookies Gordon Hayward, Jeremy Evans and Derrick Favors on the court.

“I don’t think we came out with the energy ready to take care of business,” said Corbin, whose team did not practice Tuesday.

Jefferson was sent to the bench with 54 seconds left during the third quarter, never to return. Not when Utah was down by just three points with 2:14 left in regulation. Not when starters Earl Watson and Millsap were reinserted with 3:05 remaining in overtime, and the Jazz’s rookies were tiring and losing their edge. Utah’s leading scorer and rebounder — the only player on the Jazz’s roster to start all 75 games this season — was completely isolated from his squad, at one point sitting three seats removed from his nearest teammate.

The message was clear: The Jazz were rebuilding, and Monday’s hastily formed plan did not include Jefferson.

Asked two specific questions during a postgame interview about Big Al’s benching, Corbin answered both but never specifically addressed the core of either. He explained why he decided to bring back Watson and Millsap, but Utah’s coach failed to provide a reason for Jefferson’s extended absence.

Jefferson walked out the arena without saying a word, but Miles acknowledged that his teammate was highly frustrated. And a series of recent no comments from Jefferson point toward a deepening fallout on a team where even personal communication has recently been a struggle.

k_lewis93
03-30-2011, 03:01 PM
I would love it if the Pacers could pick him up. He has been playing ridiculous lately and they obviously don't want him in Utah. Be more then happy to welcome him in Indy :)

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 03:02 PM
I don't know if this means they would trade him but he would obviously be a great addition to the team.

redfoster
03-30-2011, 03:04 PM
Soo... Granger for Jefferson this offseason? Not sure I support this trade like I did at the deadline.

MyFavMartin
03-30-2011, 03:08 PM
I don't know if this means they would trade him but he would obviously be a great addition to the team.

Agreed but don't know what it'd take to get him.

Ute's young talent:
PG Devin Harris
SG Gordon Hayward
SF CJ Miles/ Jeremy Evans
PF Milsap
C Favors


They'd prolly want some size (ie Hibbert), which I'd not want to give up Roy. Alternatively, they may want an upgrade at the SF spot.

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 03:09 PM
Soo... Granger for Jefferson this offseason? Not sure I support this trade like I did at the deadline.
I am not sure what it would take to get him. DO they go young and try to do a salary dump for multiple picks and a PG type player?

They have 57 million tied up next year so I can see the motivation to cut ties with Jefferson.

Would they do 2 first round picks and one more piece for him?

IUfan4life
03-30-2011, 03:11 PM
so the thought process here is that Jefferson plays the 4? Admittedly I have not seen a lot of Al. Are we certain that he can play the 4 spot?

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 03:16 PM
Agreed but don't know what it'd take to get him.

Ute's young talent:
PG Devin Harris
SG Gordon Hayward
SF CJ Miles/ Jeremy Evans
PF Milsap
C Favors


They'd prolly want some size (ie Hibbert), which I'd not want to give up Roy. Alternatively, they may want an upgrade at the SF spot.

I wouldn't give up Hibbert for Al Jefferson but if we got Al I would consider trading Hibbert for a more athletic PF. I am not sure that pairing works well but I would still like to see us with that much post scoring.

Edit: I might have to take back that statement... Hibbert for AL???????

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 03:18 PM
so the thought process here is that Jefferson plays the 4? Admittedly I have not seen a lot of Al. Are we certain that he can play the 4 spot?
He would have to drop some weight to play pf but I think he can. Currently he is listed at 280 lb's.

Peck
03-30-2011, 03:19 PM
To me Jefferson is the epitome of a player who will put up big numbers on a bad team but not really do much to help a team win or get better.

For him to produce you have to play through him and at the end of the day he is just not good enough to be able to put a team on his back and will them to victory. His defense is often abysmal.

There are better options out there and I'm not sure for our club that he would fit in any better than either Tyler or Josh. (I'm not saying he isn't better than either of them but he wouldn't be a better fit IMO).

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 03:21 PM
To me Jefferson is the epitome of a player who will put up big numbers on a bad team but not really do much to help a team win or get better.

For him to produce you have to play through him and at the end of the day he is just not good enough to be able to put a team on his back and will them to victory. His defense is often abysmal.

There are better options out there and I'm not sure for our club that he would fit in any better than either Tyler or Josh. (I'm not saying he isn't better than either of them but he wouldn't be a better fit IMO).
I don't think Hibbert is a guy who can carry this team either which begs the question would you consider trading Hibbert for Al Jefferson?

vnzla81
03-30-2011, 03:30 PM
I don't think Hibbert is a guy who can carry this team either which begs the question would you consider trading Hibbert for Al Jefferson?

I would do it and never look back, then I would try to get a defensive minded pf/c to play with him(kmar,varejao)

naptownmenace
03-30-2011, 03:32 PM
To me Jefferson is the epitome of a player who will put up big numbers on a bad team but not really do much to help a team win or get better.

For him to produce you have to play through him and at the end of the day he is just not good enough to be able to put a team on his back and will them to victory. His defense is often abysmal.

There are better options out there and I'm not sure for our club that he would fit in any better than either Tyler or Josh. (I'm not saying he isn't better than either of them but he wouldn't be a better fit IMO).

I'm not completely sold on that idea. To counter your argument I present this guy:

http://hustleandheart.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/pau-gasol1.jpg

Ozwalt72
03-30-2011, 03:33 PM
I'd do Hibbert, Posey and our first for Jefferson in the offseason.

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 03:34 PM
Honestly he was the first guy I thought of as well. The difference to me is that Gasol plays probably better defense (atleast in the playoffs).


Edit: The only center that can carry a team currently is Howard and he is even struggling doing it.

Peck
03-30-2011, 03:43 PM
I'm not completely sold on that idea. To counter your argument I present this guy:

http://hustleandheart.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/pau-gasol1.jpg

Good player and all but to negate your argument (slightly) I will counter by saying most people would look pretty good next to this guy.

http://socialmediaseo.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/kobe-bryant-mvp.jpg

Trader Joe
03-30-2011, 03:46 PM
Good player and all but to negate your argument (slightly) I will counter by saying most people would look pretty good next to this guy.

http://socialmediaseo.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/kobe-bryant-mvp.jpg

Not to mention Pau actually took some pretty terrible Grizzly teams to the playoffs. Just because they never won there isn't his fault. He had ZERO help.

Psyren
03-30-2011, 03:53 PM
Now I don't know the situation so it's a bit hard to make this comment.

Even though I don't know if Corbin would be/could be/could've been a Pacer coaching candidate, it's never a good sign for a rookie head coach to have his players walking out on him.

Doesn't sound like the kind of coach I'd want here if he were to be a possibility.

Again, I'm not that familiar with Corbin or the happenings in Utah. Or Al Jefferson for that matter, so maybe it's just Jefferson's personality?

At least Frank's players haven't walked out on him (yet/to our knowledge).

Hicks
03-30-2011, 03:55 PM
It's my understanding that Al Jefferson has as good of a post game as anyone in the league, which instantly makes me interested in him for that reason alone.

He was a PF when he was a Celtic, so I assume he still could play that position.

Defensively, I thought he was better than his PD reputation states, but I've hardly studied him, either.

My general feeling is you could do a lot worse for a 4 or a 5.

cdash
03-30-2011, 03:55 PM
Pass on Jefferson. Don't like him, his knees, or his contract. Absolutely would not trade Hibbert for him.

vnzla81
03-30-2011, 04:01 PM
To me Jefferson is the epitome of a player who will put up big numbers on a bad team but not really do much to help a team win .

Danny Granger? 2007 Mike D? Jefferson was putting the same numbers when Dwill was there and is not like Utah is a bad team either, they have a lot of talent, they just never understood that Paul and Al together are not good, a guy like Al needs a guy that can play D and do the dirty work.

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 04:04 PM
Pass on Jefferson. Don't like him, his knees, or his contract. Absolutely would not trade Hibbert for him.
After 2008-2009 season how many games has he missed?

graphic-er
03-30-2011, 04:29 PM
Pass on Jefferson. Don't like him, his knees, or his contract. Absolutely would not trade Hibbert for him.

Wait A Minute, what about his knees.....are they considered old? Worn down and injury prone? :-p

cdash
03-30-2011, 04:33 PM
Wait A Minute, what about his knees.....are they considered old? Worn down and injury prone? :-p

I assume you are referring to that trainwreck of a David West thread. I did not participate in that lunacy.

cdash
03-30-2011, 04:34 PM
After 2008-2009 season how many games has he missed?

I don't know, but taking his knees out of the equation, I don't like his game or his contract.

vnzla81
03-30-2011, 04:38 PM
I don't know, but taking his knees out of the equation, I don't like his game or his contract.

Aren't you the same guy that wanted Zbo?:confused:


By the way I don't think Utah would be asking much for him, they got him with the trade exception.

NuffSaid
03-30-2011, 04:47 PM
I'd give up Dahntey Jones, Soloman Jones and TJ Ford for Al Jefferson.

pacer4ever
03-30-2011, 04:49 PM
I'd give up Dahntey Jones, Soloman Jones and TJ Ford for Al Jefferson.

TJ and Solo wont even be under contract so we couldnt do this. They are gonna want a couple first rd picks or young talent. Because thats what they gave up to get him


They are trading him to give Favors more mins

vnzla81
03-30-2011, 05:12 PM
I would also ad that Al would have two years left in his contract and he is only 26 years old.

Justin Tyme
03-30-2011, 05:15 PM
Sorry, as much as I wanted the Pacers to do a JO trade to the Celtics to get Jefferson, I wouldn't take him on for 14 mil next year & 15 mil the year after. Too much money to spend when the Pacers can pick up numerous players for that type of money. His next contract won't cheap either. Thanks but PASS even if the Jazz took Posey's contract.

cdash
03-30-2011, 05:35 PM
Aren't you the same guy that wanted Zbo?:confused:


By the way I don't think Utah would be asking much for him, they got him with the trade exception.

Yeah, and Zbo is not Al Jefferson. They are similar, but I think Zach is better and I don't think he has injury concerns. Of course Jefferson doesn't have the character concerns (that I know of). I just don't like Jefferson that much. He isn't a good fit next to Roy and I would rather be patient and see if something else comes up.

pacergod2
03-30-2011, 05:38 PM
I would go after Jefferson, then a guy like Chandler or Dalembert if I want to bring him in. I don't think Hibbert is a great fit for a guy like Al. I would rather have Hibbert than Al, so I wouldn't really consider it. I might be wrong and they might be a perfect pairing, but two guys that are slow footed probably wouldn't work in any pick and roll situation.

wintermute
03-30-2011, 05:50 PM
I think Al Jeff now is like a young Zach - great post player, big numbers, but somehow doesn't translate to team success. Of course, ZBo did turn things around the past 2 years. And that's the kind of turnaround we'd be hoping for if we do trade for Al Jeff. Is it likely to happen? Who knows.

Jefferson is slow laterally, making him a poor fit defending PFs, especially playing with another slow guy like Hibbert. He's a bit undersized for defending opposing center though. He's 6'10'' but plays smaller. So you'd always have a problem with him on defense.

yoadknux
03-30-2011, 05:50 PM
He just didn't play half a game. It's not like they said "wow, he's out of here right now". I don't think they'd trade him that quickly.
And trade Granger for him? Never.

Gamble1
03-30-2011, 05:59 PM
I think Al Jeff now is like a young Zach - great post player, big numbers, but somehow doesn't translate to team success. Of course, ZBo did turn things around the past 2 years. And that's the kind of turnaround we'd be hoping for if we do trade for Al Jeff. Is it likely to happen? Who knows.

Jefferson is slow laterally, making him a poor fit defending PFs, especially playing with another slow guy like Hibbert. He's a bit undersized for defending opposing center though. He's 6'10'' but plays smaller. So you'd always have a problem with him on defense.
I think Al would have to drop some weight before he could play next to Hibbert. The one thing people have to remember is that AL and Hibbert would be a very interesting pairing when you consider low post scoring and our wings abilities to hit 3's. We could basically grind the opponent down in the low post with AL, Hibbert and Hans off the bench.

Didn't Larry Bird make calls this trade deadline for Millsap and Jefferson?


Yeah, and Zbo is not Al Jefferson. They are similar, but I think Zach is better and I don't think he has injury concerns. Of course Jefferson doesn't have the character concerns (that I know of). I just don't like Jefferson that much. He isn't a good fit next to Roy and I would rather be patient and see if something else comes up.

OF course I think ZBO could possibly get paid more than AL and he is older than AL. Really a 2 year contract to see if things could mesh would be reasonable and it would help us decide if Roy is apart of the long term plans here while giving us a viable replacement if he isn't.

vnzla81
03-30-2011, 06:32 PM
Yeah, and Zbo is not Al Jefferson. They are similar, but I think Zach is better and I don't think he has injury concerns. Of course Jefferson doesn't have the character concerns (that I know of). I just don't like Jefferson that much. He isn't a good fit next to Roy and I would rather be patient and see if something else comes up.

Help me to understand this, you are telling me that they are similar(Zbo,Al) and then you tell me that Al doesn't fit with Hibbert? So why did you argue with me for hours telling me how Zbo and Hibbert can play together? :confused:

beast23
03-30-2011, 06:44 PM
I hear the name Al Jefferson and I'm immediately intrigued. He is a very good low post scorer. However, I really can't recall Jefferson playing anywhere other than in the paint... on either end of the floor.

I just don't see him as a capable PF, especially defensively. It doesn't make any sense to me to acquire Jefferson and insert him into the lineup as a center. The acquisition would do nothing to resolve the front court defensive problems.

Jefferson's reported weight for the 2009-2010 season was 265. However, when he was traded to Minnesota, his weight was listed at 280. Definitely sounds like a guy who has resigned himself to being a post player, specifically at the center position.

I agree with others that there are better ways to spend 29M over the next 2 years than to risk getting a player that may not be able to play one of our positions of need.

ballism
03-31-2011, 07:50 AM
I'd be interested in him as Hibbert's replacement, if we also bring in an athletic quality 4.
Not interested in playing him with Hibbert.

I know Utah has principles on this, but honestly, they might have to look for a proper coach if these stories are true.
Also, why not just play Al and Favors together, Favors is the perfect addition to Al. He can get the alley oops, offensive boards, and roam around blocking shots.

It would be crazy if they trade Al and have Favors playing with Okur or Milsap.

focused444
03-31-2011, 08:05 AM
I don't think moving Hibbert for him would be the right move, but my god he killed the Pacers last time the two teams met. He iced that game. He was hitting jumpers from all over the floor.

Trophy
03-31-2011, 08:16 AM
I wouldn't go out of my way to trade valuable pieces to get him.

I wouldn't want him as my starting center.

PacerPride33
03-31-2011, 10:59 AM
I actually think Jefferson and Hibbert can co-exist. Jefferson killed us at home and I was impressed with his inside game all the way out to 15ft jumpers. I wouldn't give up Hibbert or Granger though. Rush, Posey or Stephenson and this years first would be the most I'd give up

OakMoses
03-31-2011, 11:36 AM
Al Jefferson has never been in a position to play on a good team until this year. Utah was a good team until they traded Williams. So, the one decent team he played on was good until they traded away their best player for some 3rd/4th tier talent and youngsters. I don't think the good numbers/bad team argument can really stand. Also, anything you say about Jefferson in this department you can say about Granger also.

Jefferson is a better player than Roy Hibbert. It's quite likely that he is a better player than Hibbert will ever be. He's a better scorer, better rebounder, and nearly as good of a shot-blocker despite being 4 inches shorter.

It's also quite likely that Jefferson will come pretty cheap due to his contract. The Pacers, having the ability to absorb that contract, could make an intriguing offer. You could probably do a Hibbert for Jefferson trade straight up. If Utah decides they're rebuilding, that would be a very interesting offer.

I'd do it in second.

mattie
03-31-2011, 11:55 AM
Our fans undervalue everyone of our players while overvaluing almost every talent on every team. Jefferson is a prime example. Thankfully, I don't think we have to worry too much because our front office see's the weakness in Al's game.

vnzla81
03-31-2011, 12:08 PM
I think is funny to see people saying that we don't want a 20/10 guy because we got Roy, aren't we all hoping that Roy becomes that guy in two or three years when he is like 27? People don't like his game? Isn't his game pretty much what we want Roy to do? :confused:

owl
03-31-2011, 12:24 PM
I would be very hesitant to buy into a player based on what he did against the Pacers.
That being said Utah may be willing to just get rid of the contract for somehing like an expiring and pick. Money is a BIG factor in team decisions. It happens. Trade Roy for Jefferson, I don't think so. We need to add talent to what we have.

CableKC
03-31-2011, 12:39 PM
TJ and Solo wont even be under contract so we couldnt do this. They are gonna want a couple first rd picks or young talent. Because thats what they gave up to get him

They are trading him to give Favors more mins
Whose going to be their Center? Milsap?

If he's moved...it won't be because they need to find minutes for Favors...it will be for other reasons. A Milsap/Favors/AlJeff Frontcourt rotation seems fine to me.

Gamble1
03-31-2011, 12:41 PM
Whose going to be their Center? Milsap?

If he's moved...it won't be because they need to find minutes for Favors...it will be for other reasons. A Milsap/Favors/AlJeff Frontcourt rotation seems fine to me.
Okur? :confused:

Gamble1
03-31-2011, 12:51 PM
I think is funny to see people saying that we don't want a 20/10 guy because we got Roy, aren't we all hoping that Roy becomes that guy in two or three years when he is like 27? People don't like his game? Isn't his game pretty much what we want Roy to do? :confused:
Whats crazy to me is that people don't see this as insurance in case Roy doesn't pan out. I mean how much do people think Roy is going to get paid when his contract can be extended. 10-12 mill?

Basically we could have a 1 year trial period then trade either one of them for a good player. I mean how many people would want Al as an expiring.. Probably the majority of the league and this is the worse case scenario if it didn't work out.

xIndyFan
03-31-2011, 01:40 PM
jefferson has a nice game. and he produces numbers game after game.

he would not be the ideal player to go with roy in the frontcourt, that is true. but he is much much much better than tyler, jeff and/or josh. while he is not the guy i would pick to be the guy playing the 4 next year for the pacers, he would do the job nicely anyway. $14M and $15M are a lot of money, but only a 2 yr contract. like i said, not the guy i want, but definitely a guy i'd take.

cdash
03-31-2011, 01:44 PM
Help me to understand this, you are telling me that they are similar(Zbo,Al) and then you tell me that Al doesn't fit with Hibbert? So why did you argue with me for hours telling me how Zbo and Hibbert can play together? :confused:

They can play together but they are not ideal fits. Really, Zbo isn't an ideal fit either, I just think he was the most talented guy out there and a beast. Jefferson is a step or two below Zbo in my opinion. I like that Zbo can knock down midrange jumpers on a consistent basis. I think he has more range than Jefferson on the offensive end.

vnzla81
03-31-2011, 02:17 PM
They can play together but they are not ideal fits. Really, Zbo isn't an ideal fit either, I just think he was the most talented guy out there and a beast. Jefferson is a step or two below Zbo in my opinion. I like that Zbo can knock down midrange jumpers on a consistent basis. I think he has more range than Jefferson on the offensive end.

I don't think Roy can play together with either guy and yes Zbo has more shooting range and can also shoot three.

As you can see I like Al more, there is nobody in the league that can stop him one on one, he is way underrated I think.

PacerPride33
03-31-2011, 02:34 PM
I think trading for Jefferson is the best we can do anyway. Don't see a top big guy coming here via free agency

focused444
03-31-2011, 02:35 PM
I think is funny to see people saying that we don't want a 20/10 guy because we got Roy, aren't we all hoping that Roy becomes that guy in two or three years when he is like 27? People don't like his game? Isn't his game pretty much what we want Roy to do? :confused:

This is the way I see it. NO ONE on any team of mine if I were GM would be completely off the table. You must hear out all deals, and put the organization in the best position possible. That being said, here are some reasons why I would be leery of a Roy for AL deal.

1. I'm not really sure yet how good Roy is gonna be. Can you tell me what you think Roy will eventually become? Al, we kinda do know, and the guy has been traded from team to team and is on his way out (presumably) of another city.

2. Roy is a developing 7 footer. These guys are rare in today's NBA. I think we are just beginning to see signs that some nights Roy gives us a distinct advantage in the paint.

3. Roy is a big part of the teams leadership. I just don't look at numbers. Look at the way he embraced PG24. Look at Area 55. Look at the way he affects the entire organization. Why would we want to replace that (while he's still developing on the court) with someone who is having problems with their coach in the midst of fighting for a playoff spot? Not only is Roy still making progress on the court, but he is acclimating to a leadership role altogether.

So yes, Roy has some obvious flaws in his game that can drive me insane from time to time, but I don't see Al's numbers and say "ok well he can net us 6 more points per game (random figure) so we should move Roy for that upgrade" Al is an above average NBA player who I would want on the Pacers if the price were right, but I would just be leery to move Roy unless the deal clearly had to be done.

Some of the posters around here are a little more patient than you. I read all your deadline talk this year. You wanted to trade for a handful of guys. That is the way you would handle it. Some people want to see the bigger picture unfold. Both of us having an opinion is cool. I understand wanting to reshuffle the mediocre Pacers, so why is it "funny" for the people wanting to see what we have.

I don't only look at 20/10 numbers and say "gotta get that guy." I don't care if Roy ever gets those exact numbers. Not if the team is winning and his defense is key factor, or someone else is carrying the scoring load. There are a ton of other factors then just looking at the numbers for me.

Jared Sullinger
03-31-2011, 02:54 PM
If we could pick up Big Al and then a hard-nosed, versatile defender to put next to him (say, Anderson Varejao), I'd be all for it.

MyFavMartin
03-31-2011, 02:58 PM
I see similarities of Roy to Big Z.

ballism
03-31-2011, 04:11 PM
I see similarities of Roy to Big Z.

Untill Roy learns to throw secret elbows, I don't see it! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W-YAu5Z48c

To be serious, there's plenty of similarities, although Big Z was probably more talented before injuries. The amazing part of Big Z's game is that despite injuries, he always was among the top offensive rebounders in the league WHILE taking a third or more of his shots from long range (and making a lot of them).
Not every 7'3 guy can hang around the high post and still be dominant on boards.
Roy has a way to go, especially in terms of offensive rebounding.
That said, Roy could develop that way, and it would certainly give us flexibility in terms of who to play next to him.

Jared Sullinger
03-31-2011, 05:11 PM
I see similarities of Roy to Big Z.

Third-year Roy puts up very similar production to third-year Z:

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/295/77179838.gif (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hibbero01&y1=2011&p2=ilgauzy01&y2=2001)

The only significant difference is Roy's big advantage in assists.

ballism
03-31-2011, 05:17 PM
Kind of, but is there's a point to look at third year for Z (or second, or fourth)?
That's the period when he combined 91 games over 4 years.

Trophy
03-31-2011, 06:23 PM
I see similarities of Roy to Big Z.

That's why Roy needs to add muscle.

At over 7 feet, I don't want my center playing like a string bean like Z.

He's pretty weak now and hopefully he hits the weights in the offseason and adds a couple of pounds.

Jared Sullinger
03-31-2011, 06:56 PM
Kind of, but is there's a point to look at third year for Z (or second, or fourth)?
That's the period when he combined 91 games over 4 years.

Because Roy's currently in his third-year and I was looking at them from the same point in their careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hibbero01&y1=2011&p2=ilgauzy01&y2=2001

You can change Z's seasons by editing the date at the end of the above URL.

ballism
03-31-2011, 07:24 PM
Because Roy's currently in his third-year and I was looking at them from the same point in their careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hibbero01&y1=2011&p2=ilgauzy01&y2=2001

You can change Z's seasons by editing the date at the end of the above URL.

Just saying it's pointless. Z was playing at what, 60% health?

You are comparing Roy's healthy season with Z's 20 games after missing 2 full seasons.

Look, I think Roy may have a career like Z if he keeps working hard (hopefully not the injuries part). But that stat comparison makes no sense. Z's real third season didn't even happen till 2002-2003.

Jared Sullinger
03-31-2011, 07:46 PM
Just saying it's pointless. Z was playing at what, 60% health?

You are comparing Roy's healthy season with Z's 20 games after missing 2 full seasons.

Look, I think Roy may have a career like Z if he keeps working hard (hopefully not the injuries part). But that stat comparison makes no sense. Z's real third season didn't even happen till 2002-2003.

Z's third-year production is very similar to the per-minute production throughout the rest of his career, so I'm not sure I really buy the whole injury excuse.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html

ballism
03-31-2011, 09:00 PM
Z's third-year production is very similar to the per-minute production throughout the rest of his career, so I'm not sure I really buy the whole injury excuse.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html

Cool, so lets compare Roy's production to Z's career production or some full season? :) (if there's a point to, I mean, those stats don't reflect key things like very different shot distribution for Roy and Z, eg)

It just seems pointless to say that Roy in his 3rd year is like Z in his 3rd year, when Z spent that year in crutches, as well as the two before it...

And yes, injuries matter. Besides the common sense, look at those stats again.
Those 20 games are a major aberration compared to both (A) Z's last "real" season in 97-98 (his rookie year, arguably the best year of his career) and (B) Z's next "real" season in 01-02 (where he was extremely inefficient trying to play first long season on new feet).

Jared Sullinger
03-31-2011, 10:46 PM
Cool, so lets compare Roy's production to Z's career production or some full season? :) (if there's a point to, I mean, those stats don't reflect key things like very different shot distribution for Roy and Z, eg)

It just seems pointless to say that Roy in his 3rd year is like Z in his 3rd year, when Z spent that year in crutches, as well as the two before it...

And yes, injuries matter. Besides the common sense, look at those stats again.
Those 20 games are a major aberration compared to both (A) Z's last "real" season in 97-98 (his rookie year, arguably the best year of his career) and (B) Z's next "real" season in 01-02 (where he was extremely inefficient trying to play first long season on new feet).

Roy Hibbert & Zydrunas Ilgauskas | Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hibbero01&y1=2011&p2=ilgauzy01&y2=2011)

There's their career stats. Factoring in that Z has played almost five more minutes per-game throughout their careers, they again come out remarkably similar.

If I'm choosing between a guy who looks to be another Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Big Roy) and a proven 20 & 10 low-post scorer (Big Al), I'll take the latter. Al has a big contract, but he's a big time talent, so it's understandable.

Pacerized
04-01-2011, 01:20 AM
Utah's payroll sits at 52 mil next season on 8 players. That's if they don't pick up the team option on Miles and let Kirilenko walk. They're one of many teams that may be willing to sell cheap if the new cba is tight. It would be nice if Jefferson would come at the right price. I don't think he cost you Granger, maybe a young prospect and a 1st.

ballism
04-01-2011, 01:59 AM
Utah's payroll sits at 52 mil next season on 8 players. That's if they don't pick up the team option on Miles and let Kirilenko walk. They're one of many teams that may be willing to sell cheap if the new cba is tight. It would be nice if Jefferson would come at the right price. I don't think he cost you Granger, maybe a young prospect and a 1st.

Utah also has two lottery picks, one of them (New Jersey's) should be very high. They should be around to 57-60 mil next season depending on how the lotto goes.

It does seem to make a lot of sense for them to sell Al Jefferson, if they could get a young promising C in the draft (Kanter?).

pacergod2
04-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Utah also has two lottery picks, one of them (New Jersey's) should be very high. They should be around to 57-60 mil next season depending on how the lotto goes.

It does seem to make a lot of sense for them to sell Al Jefferson, if they could get a young promising C in the draft (Kanter?).

If we gave them our first this year and possibly a player, such as Dahntay Jones just to make room on the roster for Al and would be a cheap fourth wing for Utah, and to offset a fraction of the money we would take on, it would be a great deal. This would have to be one of those draft day agreements that doesn't get fulfilled until after the new CBA, so it may be risky. We take a guy for Utah and commense the trade July 7 (or whenever they agree on a new CBA). If something falls through with the new CBA, we could be stuck with whoever we drafted for them.

vnzla81
04-01-2011, 11:28 PM
Al is on ESPN right now

xIndyFan
04-01-2011, 11:36 PM
If we gave them our first this year and possibly a player, such as Dahntay Jones just to make room on the roster for Al and would be a cheap fourth wing for Utah, and to offset a fraction of the money we would take on, it would be a great deal. This would have to be one of those draft day agreements that doesn't get fulfilled until after the new CBA, so it may be risky. We take a guy for Utah and commense the trade July 7 (or whenever they agree on a new CBA). If something falls through with the new CBA, we could be stuck with whoever we drafted for them.

there is a window between the last game of the season and the draft to do some trades, i think. the expiring contracts expire when the team finishes the season. so the pacer cap number is lower. and can make trades and take on salary.

wintermute
04-02-2011, 05:50 AM
there is a window between the last game of the season and the draft to do some trades, i think. the expiring contracts expire when the team finishes the season. so the pacer cap number is lower. and can make trades and take on salary.

It's true that teams can make trades once their season ends, but only if it involves players who are under contract for the following season.

The Pacers' cap won't be lower until the next season starts however. Heck we won't even know what the cap number is until a new CBA gets negotiated. We could conceivably make a trade of Al Jeff for Posey + Tyler + Dahntay, but not Al Jeff for cap space.