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View Full Version : How many times, if ever, has this been done in the NBA???



Peck
03-29-2011, 12:24 PM
During the Celtics game last night in the 4th quarter it became very apparent that Josh McRoberts was playing point power forward. The Pacers were literally running their offense through Josh at the top of the key for about 4 straight plays and Josh initiated the offense several other times during the quarter.

I could not think of a time that a power forward has been used like that. I can't think of a time any pacer power forward has ever done it & I'm really straining to figure out any other power forward that has done this.

Bird obviously initiated the offense a lot but was he ever really the power forward? Even with Cornbread Maxwell on the floor I still think Larry played the 3.

Hedu in Orlando? I'm not sure, maybe. Anybody more familiar with that situation clue me in.

Am I just missing a big obvious player or person?

pacersgroningen
03-29-2011, 12:27 PM
Antoine Walker with Celtics back when they were playing with like nobody inside, that team had Lafrentz, McCarty and those guys right?!

Sobotka
03-29-2011, 12:27 PM
Garnett in Minnesota for most of the first half of the decade.

Peck
03-29-2011, 12:30 PM
Garnett in Minnesota for most of the first half of the decade.

Did he actually initiate the offense for others or did they run their offense through him and on occasion he found others for a shot?

I'm asking honestly as I'm not sure.

What Josh was doing last night was not running the offense through him for him to look for something for himself but he was doing it to run the offense to make a play for others.

Bricklayer
03-29-2011, 12:33 PM
I can't see the games here in Hawaii but Anthony Mason comes to mind.

BobbyMac
03-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Wilt Chamberlan did it, but he was a center. Still the only center to lead the NBA in assists.

vnzla81
03-29-2011, 12:36 PM
Odom, Hedo, Garnett, Walker.

naptownmenace
03-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Odom, Hedo, Garnett, Walker.

Add Anthony Mason to that list. When he was in NY and Charlotte he played Point-Forward. He averaged a career high 5.7 assists per game in his first season in Charlotte.

KG averaged over 5 assists a game 6 years in-a-row (averaged 6.0 assists in 2003) and has a career average of 4.1 assists per game.

yoadknux
03-29-2011, 12:53 PM
Odom, Magic

PaceBalls
03-29-2011, 12:58 PM
There are a few in the NBA right now, maybe not guys who are orchestrating complex plays, but Odom, Hedo, Lebron(could be considered a PF), even Beasley will sometimes bring the ball up the court and create a play with a pick and roll or a drive and dish.

Josh has such great playmaking skills, I hope they really try to milk it for all it's worth.

I am ready to see Josh and Dunleavy as our starters again and reunite Paul and Tyler with the goon squad in preparation for the playoffs.

It is encouraging to see Frank using his players unique skills. I think I want to see what Frank can do with the team when he has a full year of preparation.

Trader Joe
03-29-2011, 01:13 PM
Odom in Miami Wade's rookie year.

I'd actually say it's been decently common this past decade. Lots of PFs have been the initiators of offense.

Kid Minneapolis
03-29-2011, 01:17 PM
I don't think KG really brought the ball up and distributed. He's a great feeder out of the post after drawing defenders in, I think that's how he gets most of his assists, and I'm guessing Wilt was the same way.

Anthony Mason was definitely a point-forward, maybe not as fancy in the passes as Josh, but he definitely brought the ball up the court and distributed and added some sauce to some of his passes.

aaronb
03-29-2011, 01:28 PM
Scottie Pippen was probably the most famous Point forward.

Marlin
03-29-2011, 01:29 PM
Boris Diaw comes to mind, too.

CableKC
03-29-2011, 01:49 PM
Every time I see McBob make a pass like the many that we see each game.....I say to myself.....man, I'm going to miss him when he's gone next season.

If Hansbrough was not here...I'd have no problem playing him as a backup PF....but I don't feel that McBob has the strength and rebounding skills to fill the role that Foster currently fills.....being a Backup Center. Unless McBob gets the Starting PF role ( he won't ) or Foster's role ( specifically backup Center to play next to Hansbrough and whoever the Starting PF is going to be ), my guess is that McBob will be gone next season.

pacergod2
03-29-2011, 01:55 PM
I think Toni Kukoc would qualify as a Point-PF.

McKeyFan
03-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Every time I see McBob make a pass like the many that we see each game.....I say to myself.....man, I'm going to miss him when he's gone next season.

If Hansbrough was not here...I'd have no problem playing him as a backup PF....but I don't feel that McBob has the strength and rebounding skills to fill the role that Foster currently fills.....being a Backup Center. Unless McBob gets the Starting PF role ( he won't ) or Foster's role ( specifically backup Center to play next to Hansbrough and whoever the Starting PF is going to be ), my guess is that McBob will be gone next season.

I'd hate to see him go. Especially if his ceiling is much higher. (He's still one of our youngest guys).

Even in the last two or three games I've noticed him doing a better job scoring on the drive and in the post.

Strummer
03-29-2011, 02:23 PM
I'm not saying this answers your question directly but I'm thinking of the old Sacramento Kings offense. They utilized two excellent passing big men in Vlade Divac and Chris Webber. They were always fun to watch. But those two bigs probably weren't initiating the offense in the way you mean.

Mackey_Rose
03-29-2011, 03:32 PM
I'd hate to see him go. Especially if his ceiling is much higher. (He's still one of our youngest guys).

Even in the last two or three games I've noticed him doing a better job scoring on the drive and in the post.

He basically was doing what you said you wanted to see with your thread about him at point guard. He wasn't playing the point guard position, but in the half court offense, he was being used as such.

It's huge for us, because it takes our biggest weakness (PG play) and turns it into a huge match-up advantage for us.

I know everybody loves Tyler, but he really doesn't offer us anything from a playmaking perspective, and that's currently the biggest hole in this team, and specifically in the starting lineup. Everybody wants to get their own, nobody wants to set up his teammates. Josh does. Maybe Dunleavy will give us some more of that, when he comes back. But right now, we are putting 5 players out there that want to score every time. In theory, that works. In practice, it usually doesn't. It is a cliche, but it's also a fact that there is only one ball on the court. Everybody can't be the main scoring threat.

I don't think it matters who starts between Tyler and Josh, and I'd like to see more of Tyler and Josh together, but Josh has a skill that our team is sorely lacking. I hope to see it utilized more.

Kid Minneapolis
03-29-2011, 03:38 PM
I think Toni Kukoc would qualify as a Point-PF.

Kukoc was mostly used as a SF... as a backup in Chicago. Think he only started the year after Grant left, only because that was the only starter position open. Tbo, I don't remember Kukoc runnin the point often... he was capable of bringing the ball up the court on occasion.

pacer4ever
03-29-2011, 03:40 PM
Lamar Odom in La still runs the backup's offense at PF


Anothy Mason, Hedo, Magic, Scottie Pippen

Mackey_Rose
03-29-2011, 03:43 PM
People are saying Magic, and yeah he was 6' 9", but make no mistake. That guy was a point guard.

pacer4ever
03-29-2011, 03:52 PM
People are saying Magic, and yeah he was 6' 9", but make no mistake. That guy was a point guard.

he played games at C and PF and still played point forward. Obviously he is a pg but when they had injurys he would fill in at the forward/ center spot.

MyFavMartin
03-29-2011, 03:56 PM
He basically was doing what you said you wanted to see with your thread about him at point guard. He wasn't playing the point guard position, but in the half court offense, he was being used as such.

It's huge for us, because it takes our biggest weakness (PG play) and turns it into a huge match-up advantage for us.

I know everybody loves Tyler, but he really doesn't offer us anything from a playmaking perspective, and that's currently the biggest hole in this team, and specifically in the starting lineup. Everybody wants to get their own, nobody wants to set up his teammates. Josh does. Maybe Dunleavy will give us some more of that, when he comes back. But right now, we are putting 5 players out there that want to score every time. In theory, that works. In practice, it usually doesn't. It is a cliche, but it's also a fact that there is only one ball on the court. Everybody can't be the main scoring threat.

I don't think it matters who starts between Tyler and Josh, and I'd like to see more of Tyler and Josh together, but Josh has a skill that our team is sorely lacking. I hope to see it utilized more.

Tyler is very good in the PnR and PnPop.

Sookie
03-29-2011, 03:56 PM
He basically was doing what you said you wanted to see with your thread about him at point guard. He wasn't playing the point guard position, but in the half court offense, he was being used as such.

It's huge for us, because it takes our biggest weakness (PG play) and turns it into a huge match-up advantage for us.

I know everybody loves Tyler, but he really doesn't offer us anything from a playmaking perspective, and that's currently the biggest hole in this team, and specifically in the starting lineup. Everybody wants to get their own, nobody wants to set up his teammates. Josh does. Maybe Dunleavy will give us some more of that, when he comes back. But right now, we are putting 5 players out there that want to score every time. In theory, that works. In practice, it usually doesn't. It is a cliche, but it's also a fact that there is only one ball on the court. Everybody can't be the main scoring threat.

I don't think it matters who starts between Tyler and Josh, and I'd like to see more of Tyler and Josh together, but Josh has a skill that our team is sorely lacking. I hope to see it utilized more.

The funny thing is, it was working well in the second unit for a very different reason.

That unit doesn't have one legitimate consistent scoring threat, that can get his points in the flow of the offense. I've said I think it's pretty obvious that Vogel, and the second unit as a whole, thinks it should be Price.

But by having good ball movement and letting Josh make plays, that allowed AJ to move without the ball and get pretty good shots, and because AJ was now getting better shots (instead of trying to create by himself) that offered more threats on offense because we had Rush and AJ and Dahntay moving without the ball, and Foster setting screens, and Josh able to get the ball to them (and they were all unselfish enough last night, to pass the ball if an even better shot opened up)

Actually, if Dun replaces Dahntay in the second unit, (I'm not sure I want him too..but if he does) An offense with AJ, Rush, Josh, Dun, and Foster (although Hibbert would benefit a lot from it) will have a lot of great ball movement, and player movement..if these guys continue to play the way they did last night. (Doubt it)

The starters, I'm not sure what they need. The problem with having Josh start with them is that, technically we have three guys looking for their shot (DC, Roy, and Danny) but they are also so dang inconsistent that it's almost better to have a fourth option in there in Hans..figuring we can count on at least one to get going offensively so we aren't in a hole.

BRushWithDeath
03-29-2011, 03:59 PM
I know everybody loves Tyler, but he really doesn't offer us anything from a playmaking perspective, and that's currently the biggest hole in this team, and specifically in the starting lineup.

Clearly you didn't see that back door pass Tyler threw for a lay-up last night. The pass was a hideous over the head bounce pass that Granger was lucky to catch. While the pass was brutal, and I don't know if he was credited with an assist or not, it was the first time I've seen Tyler seemingly anticipate a play versus solely reacting to it. That's a good sign and something that could potentially be built off of.

CableKC
03-29-2011, 04:07 PM
I'd hate to see him go. Especially if his ceiling is much higher. (He's still one of our youngest guys).

Even in the last two or three games I've noticed him doing a better job scoring on the drive and in the post.
The only way that I see him improving is if he ends up on a Team with a very good pass first PG that runs an offense that thrives on ball and Player movement.

I don't think that his celiing is going to be that much higher....I think that we we see now is pretty much what we will get. This isn't a bad thing as I think that he does offer some solid skills that I think allow him to be a serviceable rotational PF where he's best suited to be a solid backup PF or an "as needed for emergencies" Starting PF. The problem is that we already have Hansbrough that coudl fit that role for us.

pacer4ever
03-29-2011, 04:10 PM
Blake Griffen has run the Clipper offense this year many times

ballism
03-29-2011, 04:14 PM
Deleted wrong post.
Anyway, it was this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSuksGMJY8

Also, Chris Webber, Gasol? Both could initiate and make amazing first pass. Not full time, but then again, neither is Josh.

vnzla81
03-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Blake Griffen has run the Clipper offense this year many times

I was waiting all day for this comment, I knew it :laugh:

pacer4ever
03-29-2011, 04:18 PM
I was waiting all day for this comment, I knew it :laugh:

He has if you watch the games he has run point forward mutliple times

ChristianDudley
03-29-2011, 04:27 PM
Rasho Nesterovic.



lmao

vnzla81
03-29-2011, 04:31 PM
He has if you watch the games he has run point forward mutliple times

I think you are confuse about what a point forward should do.

ilive4sports
03-29-2011, 04:34 PM
Blake Griffen has run the Clipper offense this year many times

You know for someone who follows the Clippers so much it really kills me seeing you spell his name wrong, its Griffin. Sorry to say something, but I see so many people here do it and its been bugging me.

As for Josh setting up the offense, its not really new. He's done it and so has Granger. WhiskeyJim and I were talking about this in the one game thread. Granger was very effective in it too. It's a nice change of pace and I would like to see it some more from both Josh and Danny.

pacer4ever
03-29-2011, 04:35 PM
I think you are confuse about what a point forward should do.

no im not he has run the offense for the clippers many times just like Lamar Odom in LA. If you call what Josh did last night running the offense Blake does that quite a bit.

HeliumFear
03-29-2011, 05:25 PM
Part of what made KG so great is how he used his absolutely sick handles and passing...

He was definitely a point forward at times.

CableKC
03-29-2011, 05:26 PM
This thread tells me 2 things:

1 ) Vogel thinks so highly of McBob's skills at facilitating the offense that he trusts him to run the offense
2 ) Vogel has to resort to having Mcbob facilitate the offense since he didn't fully trust anyone on the floor during that time to run the offense

Naptown_Seth
03-29-2011, 08:11 PM
Tyler is very good in the PnR and PnPop.
That's not playmaking. He's in the role of TARGET off the dribble action of his PG. The PLAY is the playmaker there with the PG being the other part of it. A dangerous and quick PG makes the PnR tough to stop which in turn leaves the big more open for the roll or pop.



Odom a little bit, KG a little bit. Neither were nearly as much a true Point PF as Mason though.

Look at the assist to FGA ratio for one thing. It's one thing to just be the most dangerous guy out there and having stuff run THROUGH YOU as others explained, it's another thing to be Mark Jackson at 6'10" and defending the PF at the other end.

This makes Mason the ideal comparison to me. It wasn't about his offense, it was about his offensive awareness and passing skills.


I had to listen to the game so I didn't get to see the offense being run this way. Figures one of the few times I don't Tivo features Josh as a point PF part of the time.



EDIT - Ballism with Sabonis. Great call man. Fits this discussion perfectly.

Kid Minneapolis
03-29-2011, 08:13 PM
Think there's people getting confused about what a point-forward is. A point-forward brings the ball up the court and distributes the ball and initiates the offensive set. For instance, when we get a rebound, and Collison runs back and gets the ball from the rebounder, and then brings the ball up the court and initiates the offensive set --- that's being a "point" guard. A point forward is a forward who does the same thing.

There's really not many of those. As people have stated, McRoberts has brought the ball up the court after getting his own rebound, overcame transition ball pressure, and distributed the ball in transition, but hasn't necessarily initiated an offensive set or called a play like you see Collison do. McRoberts is some sorta hybrid point-forward who mainly works in the fast-break transition game but doesn't really initiate the offensive set or call a play.

Lamar Odom is also very capable of that but you'll actually see him call a play on occasion too, and reset the offense. LeBron is a point-forward at times. Tayshaun Prince is a forward, and plays the role of point quite often. If you consider Iguodala a forward, then he would also be a point-forward. Anthony Mason was a PF who brought the ball up the court, called plays, and initiated the offensive set. Pippen could be a point forward.

I cannot say that I've seen KG bring the ball up the court and distribute the ball and initiate the offense with any regularity. Maybe early in his career, but I don't remember it recently. KG gets the ball in the paint, goes into a series of moves, draws defenders down, and then makes an inlet/outlet pass to a shooter/cutter --- that's not being a point-forward. That's being a "post passer". Sabonis didn't qualify as a point-forward/center to me. Sabonis was a terrific post passer --- but he rarely got the ball, brought it across the timeline and initiated an offensive set. Amazing, amazing post passer, though.

mattie
03-30-2011, 03:19 AM
Think there's people getting confused about what a point-forward is. A point-forward brings the ball up the court and distributes the ball and initiates the offensive set. For instance, when we get a rebound, and Collison runs back and gets the ball from the rebounder, and then brings the ball up the court and initiates the offensive set --- that's being a "point" guard. A point forward is a forward who does the same thing.

There's really not many of those. As people have stated, McRoberts has brought the ball up the court after getting his own rebound, overcame transition ball pressure, and distributed the ball in transition, but hasn't necessarily initiated an offensive set or called a play like you see Collison do. McRoberts is some sorta hybrid point-forward who mainly works in the fast-break transition game.

Lamar Odom is also very capable of that but you'll actually see him call a play on occasion too, and reset the offense. LeBron is a point-forward at times. Tayshaun Prince is a forward, and plays the role of point quite often. If you consider Iguodala a forward, then he would also be a point-forward. Anthony Mason was a PF who brought the ball up the court, called plays, and initiated the offensive set. Pippen could be a point forward.

I cannot say that I've seen KG bring the ball up the court and distribute the ball and initiate the offense with any regularity. Maybe early in his career, but I don't remember it recently. KG gets the ball in the paint, goes into a series of moves, draws defenders down, and then makes an inlet/outlet pass to a shooter/cutter --- that's not being a point-forward. That's being a "post passer". Sabonis didn't qualify as a point-guard/center to me. Sabonis was a terrific post passer --- but he rarely got the ball, brought it across the timeline and initiated an offensive set. Amazing, amazing post passer, though.

Not sometimes, Pippen was the point-forward for the Bulls. He brought it up everytime accept the few times that MJ brought the ball up.

Grant Hill was also a the point for Detroit. Hill was the only player on his team that ever initiated the offense.

BKK
03-30-2011, 03:37 AM
Funny, there's an article in Reverse (French basketball magazine) this month about Anthony Mason entitled "Point power forward" :)

pacer4ever
03-30-2011, 03:41 AM
T-mac plays point forward now a days

Constellations
03-30-2011, 04:03 AM
You know for someone who follows the Clippers so much it really kills me seeing you spell his name wrong, its Griffin.

Agreed. I've seen Griffen and Griffing. It hurts.

Constellations
03-30-2011, 04:05 AM
I had to listen to the game so I didn't get to see the offense being run this way. Figures one of the few times I don't Tivo features Josh as a point PF part of the time.

Jsyk, if you have Comcast, they have Game Replays on the sports option.

ballism
03-30-2011, 04:12 AM
Agreed. I've seen Griffen and Griffing. It hurts.

CP3
DH12
Kobe
MJ
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Glove
Dream
Sheed
KG
Melo
Amare
LeBron
Wade
Ray Ray
Manu
Duncan
Pau
Rose
D-Will
Wilt
Kareem

Griffin is too complicated. It has more than 6 letters!

Peck
03-30-2011, 10:46 AM
Remember I'm specifically talking about power forwards, not small forwards, playing running the offense.

With that in mind, yes I obviously neglected Mason.

BTW, while Sabonis does not meet the criteria of being a power forward he certainly ran the offense in Portland on several occasions.

BRushWithDeath
03-30-2011, 10:53 AM
BTW, while Sabonis does not meet the criteria of being a power forward he certainly ran the offense in Portland on several occasions.

Sabonis was the first name that popped into my mind when I thought about bigs running an offense.

I was pretty surprised to see that he only averaged 2 assists per game for his career and only had a single season reaching 3 per game.

Josh actually averages more assists per 36. That was stunning to me.

vnzla81
03-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Remember I'm specifically talking about power forwards, not small forwards, playing running the offense.

With that in mind, yes I obviously neglected Mason.

BTW, while Sabonis does not meet the criteria of being a power forward he certainly ran the offense in Portland on several occasions.

Yeah but at least to me Josh is not a PF, he is a big SF that gets to play PF, there are few guys like him in the NBA, Durant,Green,Odom,Lebron, guys that can play the position but are not true power forwards.

Edit: I forgot to ad Smarion, and Jamison.

ballism
03-30-2011, 05:17 PM
EDIT - Ballism with Sabonis. Great call man. Fits this discussion perfectly.

Sarcasm aside, and the 'power forward' part aside... I might be wrong, but I don't remember a thing McRoberts did in that quarter that Sabonis didn't on pretty regular basis.
As in, the big gets the ball with 15-18 seconds left at the top of the key or at the wing and initiates the rest of offense.
Or is the "bring the ball over the halfcourt" part really the crucial part of this discussion (in that case, it's a very fair critique)? I assumed it's not, since I couldnt remember Josh bringing the ball up once last night.