PDA

View Full Version : Hollinger's All-2012 Team Features Hansbroughand George



bulldog
03-08-2011, 02:06 PM
Up-and-Coming Players to Watch
...
Before we hit that point, we have time to look at some players toiling in relative obscurity who could make a major impact next season. I'm not talking about the John Walls and DeMarcus Cousinses of the league. I mean players who are relative unknown but have started to turn the corner for what are in most cases lesser teams...

Tyler Hansbrough, Pacers
Hansbrough did virtually nothing the first two months and briefly fell out of the Pacers' rotation entirely, but lately his play has been more encouraging.

One thing new Indiana coach Frank Vogel did was give Hansbrough a consistent role, playing him about half the game off the bench at power forward. That strategy has allowed Hansbrough to play more freely on offense, and he's averaging nearly a point every two minutes on the season and proving adept at drawing fouls. But to be a long-term starter, he needs to raise his shooting percentage from 43.0 percent.
...
Paul George, Pacers
If there is one reason to watch the Pacers this year, it's this guy. While the Griffin-Wall-Cousins rookie trio still hogs all the attention, it's become increasingly clear that George was flat-out stolen at No. 10 by Indiana. A long, silky finisher who looks as if he could easily ramp up to the go-to scorer role, George is shooting 56.7 percent on 2-pointers.

His main shortcoming has been that he has taken a ton of 3-pointers and struggles to make them. That talent should develop in time, as his shooting stroke looks solid, and if it does the 20-year-old will be nigh unguardable.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110308
(Insider Only)

As always, good pick ups by Hollinger. The longer article disproves two common anti-Hollinger rants on this board, that he doesn't watch games and that he hates the Pacers.

cdash
03-08-2011, 02:15 PM
What?! Hollinger hates the Pacers! This cannot be!

Really?
03-08-2011, 02:29 PM
lol Hanbrough looks so serious in the picture.. but thats Tyler I guess...

cdash
03-08-2011, 02:31 PM
Now that I have gotten my sassy comment out of the way, I really like that these guys are getting some level of national attention. The blurb on Paul George is especially refreshing to hear. Obviously he's not saying anything didn't already know, but it's nice to see him being recognized by the national media.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 02:42 PM
What?! Hollinger hates the Pacers! This cannot be!

LMAO

Thats what I was thinking

The world is officially coming to an end, or hell has frozen over

:)

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2011, 04:42 PM
he's averaging nearly a point every two minutes on the season and proving adept at drawing fouls. But to be a long-term starter, he needs to raise his shooting percentage from 43.0 percent.3rd on team in FGAs per minute (.401)

8th on the team in Points Per Shot (1.19)

10th on the team in FG% (43%)

12th on the team in eFG% (43%) - bonus .5 FGM for each 3PM

43% from a PF is HORRIBLE. Not kinda bad. Like out of the NBA bad. Unless you are 3pt type PF. Guys like Dale or Tony Davis were 50%+ types. This is because most PFs are able to supplement their regular shooting with power dunks or scores at the rim.

You can laugh this off as a quirk, but Tyler did the same thing last season too.


BTW, highest FGA/Min - Danny at .453
Highest PPS - Josh 1.39
Highest FG% - Josh 54%
Highest eFG% - Josh 58%, 2nd is Dun at 56% (gotta give him his due)
Biggest surprise - D Jones is 2nd in PPS at 1.36 and is shooting 50.8%, 53.6% eFG



BTW, on a totally different angle we've got the long line of ***** ****** who think that Rush is some disaster on offense in comparison to Dunleavy. Rush being unaggressive or a poor shooter or something.

Dun .302 FGA/Min
Rush .299 FGA/Min, virtually identical

Dun 55.8% eFG
Rush 51.6% eFG (certainly a drop, but still 4th on the team)

Dun has him on PPS clearly, 1.29 to 1.20 which is a fair chunk. But to tie it back into this thread, how is Rush's 1.20 PPS worse than Tyler's 1.19? (hint: it's not)

Yet people love Tyler drawing points and lament Rush passing up shots, as if that is a bad thing. For all of Tyler's aggressive play and foul drawing, he's not as efficient as Rush is at scoring the ball.



I don't hate Tyler or love Rush. I hate that people hate Rush and love Tyler when in fact they should feel pretty neutral about both.

Wylder1324
03-08-2011, 04:47 PM
One important thing to remember about Tyler is that he goes into the paint with the mentality that he is either going to score or get fouled trying....often he draws a TON of fouls but cant always convert in the process......this effects his %......honestly Im ok with it because he is such a good free throw shooter.....if we can get 2 pts AND a foul on the opposing teams player then pencil me in for this every time.

Ozwalt72
03-08-2011, 04:51 PM
One important thing to remember about Tyler is that he goes into the paint with the mentality that he is either going to score or get fouled trying....often he draws a TON of fouls but cant always convert in the process......this effects his %......honestly Im ok with it because he is such a good free throw shooter.....if we can get 2 pts AND a foul on the opposing teams player then pencil me in for this every time.

Except when he's fouled...his missed shot isn't counted. Isn't that the case?

esabyrn333
03-08-2011, 04:52 PM
3rd on team in FGAs per minute (.401)

8th on the team in Points Per Shot (1.19)

10th on the team in FG% (43%)

12th on the team in eFG% (43%) - bonus .5 FGM for each 3PM

43% from a PF is HORRIBLE. Not kinda bad. Like out of the NBA bad. Unless you are 3pt type PF. Guys like Dale or Tony Davis were 50%+ types. This is because most PFs are able to supplement their regular shooting with power dunks or scores at the rim.

You can laugh this off as a quirk, but Tyler did the same thing last season too.


BTW, highest FGA/Min - Danny at .453
Highest PPS - Josh 1.39
Highest FG% - Josh 54%
Highest eFG% - Josh 58%, 2nd is Dun at 56% (gotta give him his due)
Biggest surprise - D Jones is 2nd in PPS at 1.36 and is shooting 50.8%, 53.6% eFG



BTW, on a totally different angle we've got the long line of ***** ****** who think that Rush is some disaster on offense in comparison to Dunleavy. Rush being unaggressive or a poor shooter or something.

Dun .302 FGA/Min
Rush .299 FGA/Min, virtually identical

Dun 55.8% eFG
Rush 51.6% eFG (certainly a drop, but still 4th on the team)

Dun has him on PPS clearly, 1.29 to 1.20 which is a fair chunk. But to tie it back into this thread, how is Rush's 1.20 PPS worse than Tyler's 1.19? (hint: it's not)

Yet people love Tyler drawing points and lament Rush passing up shots, as if that is a bad thing. For all of Tyler's aggressive play and foul drawing, he's not as efficient as Rush is at scoring the ball.



I don't hate Tyler or love Rush. I hate that people hate Rush and love Tyler when in fact they should feel pretty neutral about both.

Seth----

If we get a starting PF this off season who would you want coming off the bench, Tyler or Josh?

I'm torn and personally and IMO your a subject matter expert so I would love to hear your view.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
One important thing to remember about Tyler is that he goes into the paint with the mentality that he is either going to score or get fouled trying....often he draws a TON of fouls but cant always convert in the process......this effects his %......honestly Im ok with it because he is such a good free throw shooter.....if we can get 2 pts AND a foul on the opposing teams player then pencil me in for this every time.

WRONG!! A missed shot while being fouled, does not count as an attempt.

It has absolutely no effect on his shooting percentage.

Gamble1
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
I don't hate Tyler or love Rush. I hate that people hate Rush and love Tyler when in fact they should feel pretty neutral about both.
I am not sure what spark that little rant but I think the difference to me is that its hard to get behind Rush because he has all the physical tools to be our starter and he hasn't gotten it done IMO. We all chalk that up as either mental or he is flat out unwilling to put in the work to be a dominant offensive pg.

Tyler isn't a starter but you never question his toughness or willingness to reach his potential as a NBA player however limited that may be. The same can't be said of Rush IMO.

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 04:58 PM
Except when he's fouled...his missed shot isn't counted. Isn't that the case?

I don't know where the ridiculous notion that because Tyler is fouled a lot it hurts his shooting percentage. It actually helps it. A ton. If you are fouled on a shot attempt, it only counts as a shot attempt if you make it. If you miss and are fouled it is not an attempt.

BillS
03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
I think the thing that bothers me a bit is that for some reason folks see Tyler as a finished product after basically a year on the floor.

I think his style won't change much, certainly, but his decision making - which is what we are talking about - is only going to improve.

With Rush, though, we are talking about style - people expect him to be something aggressive on offense, which he never has been and probably never will be. In all honesty, if the other scoring options in the starting lineup are doing their jobs (Granger, DC, and Hibbert as scorers), I really think Josh can provide some of the motion that Dun has provided, which leaves Rush free to be the last option in scoring but the defensive focal point.

judicata
03-08-2011, 05:46 PM
After two years, I'm still not sure what Seth is trying to say.

Psyren
03-08-2011, 05:52 PM
3rd on team in FGAs per minute (.401)

8th on the team in Points Per Shot (1.19)

10th on the team in FG% (43%)

12th on the team in eFG% (43%) - bonus .5 FGM for each 3PM

43% from a PF is HORRIBLE. Not kinda bad. Like out of the NBA bad. Unless you are 3pt type PF. Guys like Dale or Tony Davis were 50%+ types. This is because most PFs are able to supplement their regular shooting with power dunks or scores at the rim.

You can laugh this off as a quirk, but Tyler did the same thing last season too.


BTW, highest FGA/Min - Danny at .453
Highest PPS - Josh 1.39
Highest FG% - Josh 54%
Highest eFG% - Josh 58%, 2nd is Dun at 56% (gotta give him his due)
Biggest surprise - D Jones is 2nd in PPS at 1.36 and is shooting 50.8%, 53.6% eFG



BTW, on a totally different angle we've got the long line of ***** ****** who think that Rush is some disaster on offense in comparison to Dunleavy. Rush being unaggressive or a poor shooter or something.

Dun .302 FGA/Min
Rush .299 FGA/Min, virtually identical

Dun 55.8% eFG
Rush 51.6% eFG (certainly a drop, but still 4th on the team)

Dun has him on PPS clearly, 1.29 to 1.20 which is a fair chunk. But to tie it back into this thread, how is Rush's 1.20 PPS worse than Tyler's 1.19? (hint: it's not)

Yet people love Tyler drawing points and lament Rush passing up shots, as if that is a bad thing. For all of Tyler's aggressive play and foul drawing, he's not as efficient as Rush is at scoring the ball.



I don't hate Tyler or love Rush. I hate that people hate Rush and love Tyler when in fact they should feel pretty neutral about both.

I love Hansbrough because of his effort, not necessarily his productivity or decision making.

I hate Rush because the effort never seems to be there.

If I could have Rush give Hansbroughs effort, I would probably love Rush because he'd make some plays on hustle alone.

Just my take on it.

Effort goes a long way for me.

Pacer Fan
03-08-2011, 06:25 PM
Since alot of you are talking about Rush, I'm curious, Do anyone actually know why he doesn't try harder. Has he ever been asked this question in a interview?

He has the skillls and a good shot...I just don't get it.

I like Rush alot, when I first seen him he reminded me of a young "Big Smooth". Especially the hair style he was sporting and sleepy eyes.

daschysta
03-08-2011, 06:39 PM
Some players are just naturally passive, it's an expression of his personality on the floor. He's a nice complimentary piece, as he knows his role, and has been on winners before. The problem is that the pacers would be better off if he had the aggression to match his physical tools. The fans see this and resent what is percieved as a blatant lack of effort, whereas I think that rush could really thrive on a team that didn't need him to assert himself as one of the top offensive options.

Jared Sullinger
03-08-2011, 06:41 PM
*Snipped rant*

Tyler's played 79 career games; Brandon's played 204.

If Hansbrough's still the exact same player 200 games into his career, I assure you that Pacer fans wont be nearly so forgiving of his flaws. Likewise, I'm sure "Brandon haters" were far easier on him earlier on in his career when there was still hope that he'd fully realize his potential. He has not.

Also, as has been mentioned, most fans appreciate the hustle and energy Tyler plays with, which is in stark contrast with the impression most have of Rush as a pothead with a lazy─almost apathetic─demeanor.

Pacer Fan
03-08-2011, 06:49 PM
Yea, I get all that, I'm just wondering if he has ever been asked that question in a interview. You know, get put on the spot in the public eye.

daschysta
03-08-2011, 06:53 PM
No interviewer would be that rude, rush would just say that he gives 100 percent all the time and that interviewer wouldn't get any more scoops from him at least.

Pacer Fan
03-08-2011, 06:58 PM
Well, we need to get Geraldo Rivera to interview him live. He would ask the hard questions. :D

speakout4
03-08-2011, 07:21 PM
BTW, on a totally different angle we've got the long line of ***** ****** who think that Rush is some disaster on offense in comparison to Dunleavy. Rush being unaggressive or a poor shooter or something.
.
It is a real pleasure to watch Rush pass up shots when we're behind double digit points and then finally take a 3 pointer when he's so wide open because why bother to defend a guy who doesn't shoot. Last game he took the same number of shots or one less than foster. That helps but of course everyone who isn't a Rush fan is ***** ******.

Sollozzo
03-08-2011, 07:39 PM
43% from a PF is HORRIBLE. Not kinda bad. Like out of the NBA bad. Unless you are 3pt type PF. Guys like Dale or Tony Davis were 50%+ types. This is because most PFs are able to supplement their regular shooting with power dunks or scores at the rim.




So Hansbrough is shooting 43% when his career games played is equivalent to a full rookie season. Big deal. There is plenty of time for him to improve. If he's shooting 43% in his 8th season like Jermaine O'Neal did (03-04) then maybe I'll be concerned. An alleged Super Star PF shooting 43% in his "prime". Now that's horrible.

judicata
03-08-2011, 07:56 PM
Everyone, including Hollinger, recognizes that Tyler needs to improve his shooting percentage.

On the other hand, most people also recognize that all shots are not created equal. Most players, especially post players, are going to sacrifice shooting % when their attempts increase. Switch Josh and Tyler in the lineups, tell Tyler to only score on garbage baskets and Josh to shoot the ball 12 times a night and see what happens to those numbers.

I hope that nobody changes their opinions and interests in players because you think they should be picking their favorite players based on TS%. I don't give a **** if Tyler shoots 35% from the field or Monta Ellis can't play a lick of defense or Foster's jumpshot looks like it was ejected out of a cannon. They are still my favorite players, irrespective of their faults.

People like Tyler because he brings it every night. These same people are probably inclined to dislike the nightly apathy and tentative play out of Rush.

I know you understand this because you're in love with Josh because he can dribble behind his back and throw a no-look pass on the break and jump out of the gym despite the fact that some of his production statistics are unflattering.

Hicks
03-09-2011, 12:12 AM
So Hansbrough is shooting 43% when his career games played is equivalent to a full rookie season. Big deal. There is plenty of time for him to improve. If he's shooting 43% in his 8th season like Jermaine O'Neal did (03-04) then maybe I'll be concerned. An alleged Super Star PF shooting 43% in his "prime". Now that's horrible.

Yeah. Kind of hilarious that in his "closest he ever got to being MVP" season, Jermaine put up what is now described as an 'out of the league bad' FG%.

PaceBalls
03-09-2011, 02:20 AM
Just to jump in the new Brandon vs Tyler debate.. which is so nice since it's not a Josh vs Tyler debate.

There is one huge difference between the two players besides all the stats and what not. Tyler WANTS to take over the game. He WANTS to be the difference maker. Rush, while solid, just wants to do as little as possible on offense, almost as if his thought process is this... "damn they passed it to me, now I gotta go pull some crap out of my ***... or maybe I'll miss a shot! eek! I better try to pass it!"

Brandon is very mouse-like... a damn big barrel chested mouse, but that is what I see in his demeanor.

Now, I am not a hater, I like Brandon, but he is what he is. He is a role player who wants to defer. He plays solid D usually and he can be a really good 3pt assassin. He is a role player every team needs, they don't get paid much and they bring necessary skills that you need with bench players.

Tyler is a leader and has the eye of the tiger.

That's the difference and why they aren't equal in value to our club.

Sollozzo
03-09-2011, 07:37 AM
Yet people love Tyler drawing points and lament Rush passing up shots, as if that is a bad thing. For all of Tyler's aggressive play and foul drawing, he's not as efficient as Rush is at scoring the ball.






Rush shot 2-2 last night for a wussy 4 points, but thank God he didn't hurt his efficiency rating......

I don't care about some efficiency statistic. I care that my starting SG has no aggression whatsoever when it comes to scoring the basketball. It seems he can barely put up double digits which is awful.

Forgive us for being more patient Hansbrough, a guy who is still basically a rookie if you go by career games played, than we are with Rush, someone who is in his third season and has had opportunity after opportunity to reach his potential but hasn't.

Something people forget with Hansbrough is that the dude couldn't practice all summer. Never discount how important working in the summer is, especially for young players. The guy pretty much lost his rookie season AND the summer after it. That's HUGE.

We all know Tyler will be in the gym working his tail off every day this summer. I know I can't wait to see him next year with a full summer of work under his belt.

nyballer31
03-09-2011, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;1187995]
Yet people love Tyler drawing points and lament Rush passing up shots, as if that is a bad thing. For all of Tyler's aggressive play and foul drawing, he's not as efficient as Rush is at scoring the ball.



QUOTE]




You can throw out all the fancy statistics you want,at the end of the day we are starting a shooting guard who refuses to shoot.We start a powerforward that is not asked to score but to do the other little things like provide energy, rebound ,defense and score off garbage points you are now essentially playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end.Starting one guy who doesn't look to shoot the ball is fine but it's hard for teams to start two guys like that and expect to outscore your opponents.Brandon Rush by not looking to shoot the basketball makes it tougher on Roy and Danny to get good shots.

Nobody is saying Brandon Rush needs to take 15 shots a game, it would be nice just once in a while if our starting two guard would be a threat to shoot the basketball.It may make Rush's defender think twice to come help out on Roy or Danny.

Mackey_Rose
03-09-2011, 10:17 AM
It may make Rush's defender think twice to come help out on Roy or Danny.

Please find me an example of this happening. I watch closely for this kind of stuff, and it pretty much never, ever happens.

Rush may not shoot enough to satisfy a majority of people, but he's too good a shooter to be left alone. NBA coaches know this, so his defender almost never helps. He's almost always being guarded closely, that's probably why he doesn't shoot much. The few times his man does help out, result in him getting open looks, and those are the only shots he takes.

Conventional basketball wisdom says contested shots are bad shots. Rush is just reluctant to take bad shots. That isn't a bad thing.

We need our scorers to score. Not Rush.

naptownmenace
03-09-2011, 10:22 AM
I don't know where the ridiculous notion that because Tyler is fouled a lot it hurts his shooting percentage. It actually helps it. A ton. If you are fouled on a shot attempt, it only counts as a shot attempt if you make it. If you miss and are fouled it is not an attempt.

I could be wrong but I thought what he was saying is that Tyler is aggressively looking to attack and either score or draw the foul. Sometimes he fails to do both - meaning he either misses a makeable shot or he is fouled and there is no whistle and he misses the shot.

At least he's being aggressive. Brandon Rush should be coming off the bench. He's hurting the Pacers out there more than he helps them because he doesn't do nearly enough positive on the offensive end of the floor and his defense has regressed as well.

nyballer31
03-09-2011, 10:27 AM
We need our scorers to score. Not Rush.


Our scorers don't score well enough to get by starting two guys in our starting five who are not threats to shoot the ball.We also don't defend well enough to use that strategy.

naptownmenace
03-09-2011, 10:28 AM
Conventional basketball wisdom says contested shots are bad shots. Rush is just reluctant to take bad shots. That isn't a bad thing.

We need our scorers to score. Not Rush.

Actually the Pacers need scorers that can score in one-on-one situations - even against good defense. Paul might be able to develop into that type of player as he develops more strength but as of right now, Tyler is the only player on the team that can score through contact on a consistent basis. Every good team has at least 2 of these type of players. The Pacers really need to improve in this area.

nyballer31
03-09-2011, 10:29 AM
[QUOTE=Mackey_Rose;1188802]Please find me an example of this happening. I watch closely for this kind of stuff, and it pretty much never, ever happens.

QUOTE]

Where do you think the double teams are coming from?There not leaving Granger open.
At the end of the day your starting shooting guard is going to have to make a jumper with somebody on him.Rush isn't a good enough defender to get by taking 2 shots when we don't have alot of offensive fire power to begin with.

vnzla81
03-09-2011, 10:59 AM
It really makes me mad to hear people saying that Brandon doesn't care, I am starting to wonder if some people here even watch the games, the guy is one of the hardest workers on the floor, he block shots, rebounds, plays D on the other team best player and he is one of the only guys that are able to fit the post, people just because he doesn't take a lot of shots doesn't mean he doesn't care.

BRushWithDeath
03-09-2011, 12:03 PM
Where do you think the double teams are coming from?There not leaving Granger open.
At the end of the day your starting shooting guard is going to have to make a jumper with somebody on him.Rush isn't a good enough defender to get by taking 2 shots when we don't have alot of offensive fire power to begin with.

The only player on the entire team who ever, and this is occassionally, gets doubled is Roy. And that is almost always the PG coming in to dig out the ball because Collison has cut through the lane for a pass. People aren't doubling off Granger. People aren't doubling off Rush. People aren't doubling off McRoberts. They aren't doubling off Collison unless he's crowding the lane. Roy doesn't need to be doubled so it doesn't happen often. When it does happen it is not a designed double and they aren't purposely not guarding any of our players. It is simply the PG recognizing that Collison isn't a threat in the lane so he may as well swipe a few times at the ball while Roy is being indecisive in the post.

I would love for teams to actually send true double teams at Roy with our "offensive liabilities" Rush or McRoberts' defenders. They would get dunk after dunk if that happened. Unfortunately, it does not because Roy doesn't warrant it. He's too weak for teams to need to double him. He's a big house on a little foundation.

Sollozzo
03-09-2011, 01:15 PM
I don't hate Tyler or love Rush. I hate that people hate Rush and love Tyler when in fact they should feel pretty neutral about both.



The problem, Seth, is that you hold Tyler on equal footing with Rush and Josh when Tyler's career games played is equivalent to a rookie who played a full season while Rush and Josh have played in a ton more games (Josh has played in double, Rush almost three times as much). Furthermore, Rush and Josh have each had multiple summers since coming into the league to work on their games while Tyler lost last summer with his vertigo. So not only has Tyler played in only 80 career games, but he's also never even had a summer to work on his game, which is HUGE for a young player. Think about it, Josh has had three summers to work on his game since coming into the league while Tyler has had ZERO.

Whenever young players improve, they always seem to attribute it to their hard work in the summer.

I don't care that Tyler is 25 and is a trivial amount of months older than Josh. I care about NBA experience, something Tyler has little of while Josh has a decent amount of (plus he's had summers to work on his game). NBA experience is superior to age as far as importance goes. Danny is a year and a half older than Lebron but Lebron has two years of NBA experience on him. Which do you think is more important? (not trying to compare Danny to Lebron, just am making a general point...)

People on here don't have a vendetta against Rush. Go back two seasons in the archive and you will find plenty of posters who had high hopes for him as the SG for the future. I was one of them, especially given how he finished 09 on an offensive tear. I thought that was a sign of good things to come. But he's basically the exact same player he was two seasons ago. Where is the improvement? No one is asking that he become a 20 PPG scorer, but we would like our SHOOTING GUARD to shoot the ball more than just a couple times a game. All we are asking for is for SOME offensive aggression, that's it. It's frustrating because we know that Rush has some offensive talents, it's just that he chooses not to use them for whatever reason. Where is Rush specifically better now than he was two years ago? I don't see it. The guy had the starting SG position handed to him on a silver platter but hasn't been able to get it done.

So yeah, we're going to be a bit more patient with Tyler, a player who is still a rookie for all practical purposes, than we are with Rush, a player who is in his third year and practically is the same player he was as a rookie.

nyballer31
03-09-2011, 03:10 PM
I would love for teams to actually send true double teams at Roy with our "offensive liabilities" Rush or McRoberts' defenders. They would get dunk after dunk if that happened. Unfortunately, it does not because Roy doesn't warrant it. He's too weak for teams to need to double him. He's a big house on a little foundation.

It may not be a "true" double team but every time Roy has the ball teams collapse on him and he has struggled passing out of that.Its easy to get away with it when you don't have the threats on the court to keep the defense honest.Like I said before were playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end.We don't defend, and we don't have enough big time scorers to make up for that lack of production at the 2 guard spot.Rush is averaging 6ppg a game on 6 shot attempts since he's been inserted as the starter.That just isn't going to cut it for this team or many other teams in the league.

BRushWithDeath
03-09-2011, 04:14 PM
It may not be a "true" double team but every time Roy has the ball teams collapse on him and he has struggled passing out of that.Its easy to get away with it when you don't have the threats on the court to keep the defense honest.Like I said before were playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end.We don't defend, and we don't have enough big time scorers to make up for that lack of production at the 2 guard spot.Rush is averaging 6ppg a game on 6 shot attempts since he's been inserted as the starter.That just isn't going to cut it for this team or many other teams in the league.

I don't disagree that Rush isn't cutting it offensively. He hasn't.

I disagree that he's hurt his teammates by being on the floor. Roy is not getting doubled. Granger is not getting doubled. Collison is not getting doubled. McRoberts is not getting doubled. There is not one player on our team who needs to be double teamed.

BillS
03-09-2011, 06:27 PM
I don't disagree that Rush isn't cutting it offensively. He hasn't.

I disagree that he's hurt his teammates by being on the floor. Roy is not getting doubled. Granger is not getting doubled. Collison is not getting doubled. McRoberts is not getting doubled. There is not one player on our team who needs to be double teamed.

There are two things:

1) Roy DOES get collapsed on when he holds the ball before he makes a move. As was said above, it was not a double as such but if it cuts off a passing lane or disallows Roy to take the position he needs to score, it is just as effective.

2) No one - including Rush, and I have no film to back it up but if I had film of the first quarter against Philly I'd post it here - moves to help open a passing lane for Roy when he gets the ball. Rush doesn't move until he gets the ball the first time - he will sometimes keep moving after he has passed it away, but until he gets it he stands where he starts, usuall;y just above the baseline at the 3-point line.

These two things make it harder for guys on the floor to be successful.

SMosley21
03-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Hansbrough's stats for the month of March:


17.3 ppg
7.7 rpg
1.3 spg
47% FG
75% FT

Unfortunately, the Pacers are only 1-5 in those games.

Doddage
03-10-2011, 12:41 PM
I don't hate Tyler or love Rush. I hate that people hate Rush and love Tyler when in fact they should feel pretty neutral about both.
Why does it matter if people love Tyler? Shouldn't people have the right to have their favorite players on the team? I mean, you don't see anyone saying that they hate your preference of Josh McRoberts...

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2011, 10:20 PM
Now, I am not a hater, I like Brandon, but he is what he is. He is a role player who wants to defer. He plays solid D usually and he can be a really good 3pt assassin. He is a role player every team needs, they don't get paid much and they bring necessary skills that you need with bench players.

Tyler is a leader and has the eye of the tiger.

That's the difference and why they aren't equal in value to our club.
Stephen Jackson likes to take charge and take all the shots. When he shot 41-42% for the Pacers fans HATED HIM and HATED his shot selection.

Al Harrington was called a BLACK HOLE. JO was a black hole prima donna.


Meanwhile when Reggie chose to only take 12-14 FGAs per game and score 18-19 ppg instead of 20 FGAs for 28 points he was considered a good team player. If Jax chose to pass more and shoot less he was a team player.


This is the thing, just by using a different word to describe the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR you can taint it either way you want to have it portrayed. The night they drafted Rush, to the other PD guys at the draft, I said "he'll be just like McKey and people will HATE him for it".


But here's the thing, I agree with Thingfish in the sense that these are different roles paired with different mindsets. I think Rush and Josh add great value because they ENABLE THE SCORERS. That was my point in the swap Bosh for Josh comment that people jumped on. Lebron and Wade have a problem where they don't need each other, they need a really talented DIFFERENT TYPE OF GUY to work off of, not another "them".


Tyler, like Dahtay by the way, helps because they need aggressive guys to initiate some offense and get things going. But they ALSO NEED some guys that will help them get those shots.

We saw what "bad Tyler" can look like in Minnesota - being portrayed by Danny Granger. When Danny was taking quick jumpers and missing tons of shots without involving others his "fire" or "aggressiveness" or "will to win" became just another bad strategy chucker ruining his team.

Any volume shooter that isn't willing to also pass the ball, set screens for others, and just in general takes a shot every time the ball hits his hands is going to cut both ways. Tyler has just come off of two nice scoring nights so it's all rolling good for him.

But when it goes south it can look like DC, Roy and Danny have looked lately.


Let's be honest, wasn't the team in better shape when the ball was with Rush or George last night than it was with Danny? Being selective has it's own advantages, and admittedly some disadvantages too.





BTW, the main reason I wanted to get back to this thread (work is nuts) is because I was most impressed with Tyler's 2nd half vs Philly. That was way more than just Hans getting hot, that was different than every other game he's had. He wasn't just bulling around, being aggressive and having things go his way.

My theory is that players developing will have these moments of inspiration when things go right and they suddenly realize a whole new dimension to their game, one that existed potentially but they hadn't found it yet, hadn't made those connections. They suddenly realize they really do belong.

And I think those 2 PnR with Lance that got Tyler the dunks had that type of effect on him. He was in command of plays after that. He wasn't just hustling, he was ahead of the plays, ahead of the thought process going on during the plays. He started anticipating where the action was going on both ends of the court. And of course that confidence boosted his shooting confidence and really dialed in his jumper.

I thought he was a bit off last night vs Minny in comparison, but still obviously statistically good and one of just a few bright spots on the night. To me those last 2 games speak volumes more than whatever Hollinger had seen prior to that.




PS - Paul George was flat-out bad a** on defense, he must have tipped 8-10 passes and dribbles even if they didn't become steals. However I also thought Rush looked good on defense in a different way, more blocks and rebounding than the tips. Good SG combo IMO.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2011, 10:27 PM
Why does it matter if people love Tyler? Shouldn't people have the right to have their favorite players on the team? I mean, you don't see anyone saying that they hate your preference of Josh McRoberts...
Because I'm not saying I LOVE JOSH and he's going to be an all-star and he's so great and Tyler shouldn't play over Josh and that they should just trade worthless Tyler because Josh is so great.


How can you not see how insanely annoying that kind of stuff is? There is something about some of the Tyler fanbase that isn't the same as a normal fanbase of a young pick.

Tyler could go 4-16 and people would say "wasn't he great, they need to trade Josh to make more room for Tyler". You won't see me brag about a bad night by Josh. My thing with Josh all along has remained as simple as "hey, he's pretty good and helps out, you aren't overpaying him in the least, so what's the problem".

That's just a tad different than "recognize the greatness".

I realize that plenty of people, people like Hicks who thanked your post even, don't jock Tyler that way. Hicks feels about Tyler like I do about Josh - why not play him, he seems to help out and he's young and he's developing.

The fact is I've NEVER taken a stance opposing that viewpoint. I've said all along, even when I wasn't buying his chances to make it, that you 100% MUST play Tyler just like all the other kids because you've got to develop them and frankly they typically gave you a better chance to win.


But of course people can't separate "I don't think he's going to make it" or "I don't think 4-13 is a good shooting night" from "he sucks", even though they are clearly not the same comment.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2011, 10:36 PM
There are two things:

1) Roy DOES get collapsed on when he holds the ball before he makes a move. As was said above, it was not a double as such but if it cuts off a passing lane or disallows Roy to take the position he needs to score, it is just as effective.

2) No one - including Rush, and I have no film to back it up but if I had film of the first quarter against Philly I'd post it here - moves to help open a passing lane for Roy when he gets the ball. Rush doesn't move until he gets the ball the first time - he will sometimes keep moving after he has passed it away, but until he gets it he stands where he starts, usuall;y just above the baseline at the 3-point line.

These two things make it harder for guys on the floor to be successful.
Bill, I do agree with the general premise that off ball movement helps keep guys from getting in trouble.

However, Roy has had chances to make passes and make moves and his reaction time has been very poor. He's back to way overthinking the entire process.

Last night with no Josh and Rush in the backup role Roy continued his same old struggles, as did DC and Granger. Those 3 are killing the team right now and it's not because guys aren't moving.

Roy has guys to pass to but he waits and that gets the passing lane compromised. Or he lets the double down get to him and lets them dig the ball out. Or he goes into his move far too late and allows the defender to get set on him.

I see Rush run cuts all the time because I am a fan and in this case I'm pretty defensive due to these debates, thus the focus on him. What I also see is especially DC and Roy MISSING THOSE CHANCES. I see it with Josh as well, and several times with Tyler last night.

These guys run out on breaks and nothing. They come off the baseline cut and nothing. They setup the backdoor cut behind the double and nothing.


Perfect example of this issue was last night - Josh makes a brilliant pass to a baseline cutting DC at the rim, the pass goes right through traffic to him. DC then blows the layup. But when Josh or Tyler make that same cut DC doesn't even try that pass, let alone make it.

Roy is having similar problems out of the low post.



IMO the main problems are DC just flat-out literally throwing the ball away all the time, as well as not seeing the court at all, Danny bombing crap shots away when he's not arm bar fouling guys as he drives to the lane, and Roy showing the sharpness of a wet mop in the low post.

Those 3 make everything anyone else is out there doing just about worthless. It's not that the rest of the team is killing it, it's just that it wouldn't matter much even if they were.

Sookie
03-10-2011, 10:38 PM
It's silly to have the Tyler versus Josh debates anyway. From all accounts, they like each other and like playing with each other...and something I like..

Tyler just so happened to have started playing well around the time that Josh got hurt.

Sounds like a teammate helping out another teammate to me.

judicata
03-10-2011, 10:58 PM
Because I'm not saying I LOVE JOSH and he's going to be an all-star and he's so great and Tyler shouldn't play over Josh and that they should just trade worthless Tyler because Josh is so great.



I love Tyler, and I see very little of this outside a couple of tools that are easy to spot at 200 paces. Most people here subscribe to the theory that Tyler will NEVER be anything other than a good 6th man, no matter how many good games he plays. After Vogel was promoted I made the argument that Tyler should continue to start and gave 4-5 legitimate reasons. I was called a Carolina homer.

Meanwhile, Tyler gets a little love from a sportswriter and you're all over it like cheeto dust on fingertips with his downsides. Christ on a cracker, the very author of that article made it a point to knock him for his poor fg% but you still feel obligated to ram it home over some imaginary "Tyler is the MVP" faction that has not materialized.

Find me 5 people on this forum who legitimately don't believe that (1) Tyler needs to get his fg% up, and (2) Tyler needs to move the rock around more, and I will eat my words.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2011, 11:02 PM
The problem, Seth, is that you hold Tyler on equal footing with Rush and Josh when Tyler's career games played is equivalent to a rookie who played a full season while Rush and Josh have played in a ton more games (Josh has played in double, Rush almost three times as much). Furthermore, Rush and Josh have each had multiple summers since coming into the league to work on their games while Tyler lost last summer with his vertigo. So not only has Tyler played in only 80 career games, but he's also never even had a summer to work on his game, which is HUGE for a young player. Think about it, Josh has had three summers to work on his game since coming into the league while Tyler has had ZERO.

Whenever young players improve, they always seem to attribute it to their hard work in the summer.
First off - Blake Griffin vs Beasley. So "NBA summer league experience" vs "big time NCAA program with good coaching" arguments are a joke - a year after being the #1/#2 pick vs the #8-#10 pick it was so reversed it wasn't even funny. Plenty of guys that stay in school see real benefit from that vs being bench fodder in the NBA. In college coaches actually coach you and teach you and you get playing time to work on your game and you are matched with competition of your own level rather than being massively overmatched and overwhelmed.

BTW, you are allowed to work out in the summer in college. That's not some exclusive right for NBA guys only.



Second - NBA minutes played is 2000 to 1500 in favor of Josh. That's about 2 months of NBA 7th man playing time. And again if you compare the playing time Tyler got while Josh sat in Portland you'd know it's a lot worse than that.

You are yourself taking the stance that PLAYING and EXPERIENCE help, but in fact Tyler has all the playing time because Josh (foolishly) came out much sooner. That's on Josh and he paid a price for it. But let's not pretend like he was in some awesome development program while Tyler was playing against toddlers in the ACC and NCAA tourney.

Since the 05-06 season Tyler has played 5900 minutes of competitive basketball on a title team with multiple NBA pick teammates. Josh has played 4000. NBA coaches and players go on and on about how there is very little time to practice during the season, and in the summer there are strict NBA CBA rules on just how much coaching contact time the team can have with players. Rick Carlisle talked about this when people wondered why he didn't work the guys harder - he literally ran out of allowed practice time due to union agreements.


Third - Tyler isn't "a few months" older than Josh, he's a year and a half older. That's a draft class or maybe even 2. Tyler is older than - George, Josh, Price (3 year NCAA), Hibbert (4 year NCAA), Collison (4 year NCAA), and Lance. He's only 4 months younger than Rush.



I guess I don't get where it's alright to beat up on Rush or Josh for not getting it yet (to your liking) but to then turn around and say "lay off on Tyler, he's just now learning" as if his UNC time was one giant goof of Fing around and streetball.

vnzla81
03-10-2011, 11:05 PM
I think is funny to read Seth's description of Josh pass he called it a "brilliant pass" :laugh: is not enough to say "he made a nice pass" but because the guy was Josh is "brilliant" :laugh:

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2011, 11:15 PM
We need our scorers to score. Not Rush.
And not only do I agree with this in Rush's sense, it means that I'm happy with him not being in that role (or Josh). To me your scorers, the guys that initiate your offensive mismatches and defensive breakdowns are Danny, Roy, DC, George and Tyler.

You don't post up Foster for a reason. And as I already pointed out, Dunleavy was NOT taking more shots or making any more passes or shooting at a better rate. Rush is filling the Dun role in terms of general production pretty well (and for a lot less money).

The problem is that Roy, DC and Danny aren't filling their role. They aren't supposed to be the guys that wait for Rush and Josh to make the big move and get it going.

I don't hate DC, Roy and Danny for this, I just think it sucks right now and I'm stumped as to what's up with all 3 of them. And Roy started having issues before Dun went out IMO.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2011, 11:21 PM
I think is funny to read Seth's description of Josh pass he called it a "brilliant pass" :laugh: is not enough to say "he made a nice pass" but because the guy was Josh is "brilliant" :laugh:
Because it was brilliant.

Out by the arc, zipped through lane traffic, dead on target to a 6' PG at the rim on the cut. That's better than just a nice bounce pass back out of a PnR.

I'd rip it and post it but I deleted that freaking nightmare off my Tivo despite the juicy Tyler highlight reel material. I'm running low on DVR space and can't keep up as it is.


You want some counter-balance on Josh - how about how in the last few games he's insisted on forcing his "nice for a PF" dribble out of transition and into the actual lane where he ends up losing it. How about him not faking off Jrue with Collison on the wing in order to avoid Jrue (a PG) getting the shot block on another dribble transition drive.

There's bad too.

The point about the pass is this - we have main focus guys who aren't able to make those passes and that's a big problem. It's nice that Josh has that skill, but wouldn't it be nicer if DC had it instead (or also)?

PaceBalls
03-10-2011, 11:29 PM
Nap, it seems like you agreed with me for the most part, except for the first paragraph where you want to take me to task and make all these amazingly bad comparisons with other players.

Like, seriously, are you really going to compare Tyler to SJax? SJax has incredible talent, he just also happens to be a member of the bloods gang, likes to carry guns around and goes to seedy nightclubs.

I think that comparison and all the others were totally wrong. Al Harrington does not play with the passion or intensity you see from Tyler. The JO blackhole comparison was probably closest, but remember JO was pretty awesome until his knees gave out...

I just think Tyler can be the foundation for this team and it's de facto leader, which is why I think he has more value to the franchise than Brandon.