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TheDon
03-07-2011, 08:14 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20110307/SPORTS04/103070318/Vogel-must-right-ship

One of Frank Vogel's first challenges when he took over as interim coach of the Indiana Pacers was to get the players to buy into what he wanted to accomplish.

Vogel's next challenge is to keep a team together that's struggling.
The Pacers are on a three-game losing streak and in danger of falling out of the eighth spot in the Eastern Conference playoff race.

Vogel, a mild-mannered person who doesn't berate his players, must get his players back on the same page if they are to stay on track.
"We have good people on our team," Vogel said. "We've got talented people. We stay together, and we keep working. It's that simple."

Players yelling in a closed locker room could be heard by those in the hallway after the Pacers' loss to the Houston Rockets on Saturday.
Center Roy Hibbert said the players need to police themselves. Forward Danny Granger said the veterans, including himself, Jeff Foster and James Posey, have to help keep the team together.

They plan to have a players' only meeting at some point in the near future. "At some point, we're going to meet up and talk some things out, because too many things are sliding right now and we have a real tough month ahead of us and we need to get some things taken care of," Hibbert said.

Poor play, struggling with team chemistry and a tough schedule are not good for what is ahead for the Pacers. They host the Philadelphia 76ers, whom the Pacers are trying to catch for the seventh seed, at Conseco Fieldhouse on Tuesday before starting a three-game trip at Minnesota on Wednesday.

"We understand we have four more back-to-back situations this month and the last two, we've come out and laid an egg," Vogel said. "It's unacceptable. We have to do something about it. I evaluate every day whether I need to change things. I'll do that when I watch the tape."

Fewer minutes for Price

Rookie Lance Stephenson's playing time has impacted second-year point guard A.J. Price's minutes. Price, who almost led the Pacers to a come-from-behind victory over Phoenix last week, has not played more than 15 minutes in a game in the past four contests.

Vogel has been using Stephenson as the first point guard off the bench late in the first quarter. The coach is trying to keep a balance on whose minutes Stephenson takes between Price and starter Darren Collison.
Stephenson has gotten extended minutes in two of the past three games because the Pacers were far behind.

"It comes with being professional," Price said. "You have to be ready when your time is called. When you get out there, you have to make the most of it and keep yourself on the court by any means necessary."
Vogel likely will have to decide eventually whether he wants to continue to play all three every game.

"I don't think it's disrupted my rhythm," Price said. "I do think it's somewhat disrupted our team a little bit as far as the second unit, not necessarily being too familiar with how certain guys play. It's going to take some time. We have a month left and we have to make the most of it."

Pacers4Life
03-07-2011, 08:22 PM
Let's hope the meeting was tonight.. Sheesh they've looked awful on most occasions of late. 20 games to sink or swim.. I hope the players are as tired as mediocrity as I am. We ARE better.. Than THIS, What we've seen the past 2 weeks or so is not all we're capable of.

TheDon
03-07-2011, 08:25 PM
I saw them interviewing players on the news a little while ago about it and Vogel seemed happy about it cause like some have said, and Vogel seemed to echo that sentiment. It at least shows they care enough to get things settled.

Sandman21
03-07-2011, 08:51 PM
Let's hope the meeting was tonight.. Sheesh they've looked awful on most occasions of late. 20 games to sink or swim.. I hope the players are as tired as mediocrity as I am. We ARE better.. Than THIS, What we've seen the past 2 weeks or so is not all we're capable of.

Bruno says it went down earlier today:
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/blog_brunner.html

imbtyler
03-07-2011, 09:35 PM
Maybe the discussion will entail PG stepping up over the other wing options, and, you know, getting their **** together for the rest of the season. A new coach can only do so much for the team; the players themselves need to have the passion to compete, no matter what happens.

Confidence is a huge issue with the guys, and they need to come together as brothers, and be able to be there for each other when things get down. Getting upset or getting down just because you're missing shots or getting bad calls isn't going to help anything. They need to look to each other for guidance and support, and be able to go on the court as one unit, not as five guys playing basketball together.

PacerPenguins
03-07-2011, 09:40 PM
hmmmmmmmm....................

TheDon
03-07-2011, 10:24 PM
I think it is interesting after obie left the way things have turned out after the so-called "honeymoon period" was over. It seems like the posters on this board have shifted and some to an extreme of holding the players accountable for the breakdowns. I recall that a few of the people that defended Obie would ask "At what point does it become the players fault for the problems?" Now that players are actually getting held accountable for their shortcomings? I feel like some are chomping at the bit to turn it around and say "well maybe it wasn't obies fault afterall." It seems like it's getting to two extremes where either nobody is responsible or everyone is responsible and there is very little room for any grey area on the subject.

Mackey_Rose
03-07-2011, 10:28 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings? Anyone think perhaps this kind of intra-team strife coming immediately after Lance's entry into the lineup is more than just a coincidence?

xIndyFan
03-07-2011, 10:30 PM
some things are the coaches fault.

but what happened is houston is solely on the players. fault the coach for a bad scheme, but implementing that scheme is on the players.

TheDon
03-07-2011, 10:36 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings? Anyone think perhaps this kind of intra-team strife coming immediately after Lance's entry into the lineup is more than just a coincidence?

I don't know about the team but it seems like it has at least effected AJ just reading the last part of his quote from the article with the the star.

I don't think it's disrupted my rhythm," Price said. "I do think it's somewhat disrupted our team a little bit as far as the second unit, not necessarily being too familiar with how certain guys play. It's going to take some time. We have a month left and we have to make the most of it."

Seems like a bit of passive-aggressive comment to make, although true can be looked at something directed at Lance. I'd like to have heard how he said that instead of just reading it. It could very well be just an honest assessment of one of the problems by AJ but I'm sure he's a little frustrated with getting bumped in and out of the lineup by a 20 year old kid when it can be argued that AJ has at times outplayed Darren.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 10:36 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings?

Jeff Foster.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 10:37 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings? Anyone think perhaps this kind of intra-team strife coming immediately after Lance's entry into the lineup is more than just a coincidence?

That would be a stupid reason but I guess I could see players getting mad about losing mintues but thats just selfish. Much like how we play at times very selfish.

righteouscool
03-07-2011, 10:40 PM
I can tell you Tyler isn't angry about Lance's minutes. Seems like Tyler is the beneficiary of every Lance pass.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings? Anyone think perhaps this kind of intra-team strife coming immediately after Lance's entry into the lineup is more than just a coincidence?

Um.. I think it has more to do with our three game losing streak effecting their confidence.

Not Lance being the Anti-Christ.

Sookie
03-07-2011, 11:03 PM
I don't know about the team but it seems like it has at least effected AJ just reading the last part of his quote from the article with the the star.

I don't think it's disrupted my rhythm," Price said. "I do think it's somewhat [B]disrupted our team a little bit as far as the second unit, not necessarily being too familiar with how certain guys play. It's going to take some time. We have a month left and we have to make the most of it."

Seems like a bit of passive-aggressive comment to make, although true can be looked at something directed at Lance. I'd like to have heard how he said that instead of just reading it. It could very well be just an honest assessment of one of the problems by AJ but I'm sure he's a little frustrated with getting bumped in and out of the lineup by a 20 year old kid when it can be argued that AJ has at times outplayed Darren.

AJ can be a little bit too honest at times. For the most part he keeps himself in check and stays PC. But he's said stuff like that a few times at Uconn.
(He once said that the Providence team had been disrespectful after they won against Uconn. He wasn't trying to provide locker room fodder, he just simply said how he honestly felt..oops. )

Wouldn't surprise me if he is frustrated though. The term "professional" doesn't even begin to describe how AJ has acted these past two seasons. However, I don't even really think he's losing minutes. In our only close game, he played the normal amount of minutes he typically plays. I think it's just the timing of when his minutes are coming that he, and the rest of the team, need to adjust too.

Regardless, to me that's between AJ, Lance and Vogel (maybe DC, as he's lost minutes too)..not really something a team only meeting has to address.

As for Lance in general. I don't really know why there would be a team only meeting because Lance entered the lineup. I don't like his style of play, but he's played about as well as you could have expected given his circumstances..and doesn't appear to be stepping on anyone's toes.

edit: Nevermind. What AJ was saying in a very subtle manner was, Dahntay's not happy with Lance.

imawhat
03-07-2011, 11:04 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings? Anyone think perhaps this kind of intra-team strife coming immediately after Lance's entry into the lineup is more than just a coincidence?


Is there something you've heard?

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 11:06 PM
i think it was reported by Wells a scuffle insued saturday and lance djones had words.

lance has a ton of "hot dog" in him, i could see Bird maximizing lances value as a trade chip next season. lance has talent, but he has a long ways to go as well.

MyFavMartin
03-07-2011, 11:15 PM
At some point you have to let go and forget about the wins and losses that have already occurred and just go out and play like you want to win.... sense of urgency or desperateness... I don't care what you call it... They's guys work too hard to expect anything to be given or handed to them... Finish strong guys.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:16 PM
i think it was reported by Wells a scuffle insued saturday and lance djones had words.

lance has a ton of "hot dog" in him, i could see Bird maximizing lances value as a trade chip next season. lance has talent, but he has a long ways to go as well.

DJ talks too much for being as poor as he is. He acts like he is Kobe Stacy said he was getting on guys in the huddle. WTF would you listen to him lol?

TheDon
03-07-2011, 11:19 PM
Wasn't Dahntay the one that was doggin on Lance earlier in the year something along the lines of Lance saying he was the best player in New York and Dahntay said somethinga bout him riding them bench?

MunciePacerBabe
03-07-2011, 11:19 PM
I am thinking there is some correlation to the trades that were trying to be made at the deadline. I wondered then if player morale would change. Team chemistry has not been the same since then.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 11:22 PM
DJ talks too much for being as poor as he is. He acts like he is Kobe Stacy said he was getting on guys in the huddle. WTF would you listen to him lol?

according to wells lance is not well liked by some of the pacer players. has something to do with a know it already type of attitude.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:23 PM
according to wells lance is not well liked by some of the pacer players. has something to do with a know it already type of attitude.

I dont doubt some players dont like each other but if it affects there on the floor game that is really un professional.

just like at your job you may not like people but you have to work with them to better the team.

http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/3/7/2036786/wells-stephensons-immaturity-overshadows-talent

O'Braindead
03-07-2011, 11:24 PM
Mike Wells joined JMV on Monday afternoon and added some flavor to the Pacers' post-game drama in Houston. JMV prodded for details and Wells mentioned that he actually put his ear up to the door to try to determine who was yelling at whom but so many voices were involved he couldn't tell which words were directed at what players.

So what were they arguing about?


Defensive breakdowns and some maturity issues. You gotta guy like Lance Stephenson who is just getting some playing time and some of the veterans were upset with the way he was playing out there, as far as not wanting to give the ball up and also some of the passes he was making.
You know, Lance is a very talented player and I'm never going to take that away from him. I just feel like he needs to grow up. He's very immature still. I've mentioned that to a number of people about his maturity problems and a lot of people say, well he's only 20 years old, but my response to that is, you may be 20 years old but at the same time there's a difference between acting 19 or 20 and acting 15 or 16 and I feel like Lance is more in that 15 to 16 range and again, where the leadership lacks, he thinks he can get away with that.

Wells goes on to mention that Stephenson has rubbed teammates the wrong way because he doesn't want to listen to the older guys because he thinks he knows it all. Listen to the whole thing and you'll hear some strong words from Wells regarding Stephenson's approach to his initial chance to play in the NBA.

Personally, I've been holding my breath waiting for some negative impact to arise from Stephenson's rise in the playing rotation. At least I can exhale and shake my head. Heck, my face didn't even turn red waiting for something to pop up. As well as Stephenson has played on the court, there's much more to playing at the highest level than simply making plays with the ball in your hands.



So with Stephenson and Dahntay Jones creating the most noise in the Pacers' locker room, I can't see anything worthwhile emerging from the yelling. I can see Jones complaining about defensive breakdowns, but he has no point to make on dominating the ball and breaking the offense. That's all he does. Sometimes it works great, sometimes it doesn't.

Meanwhile, the actual playmakers who should have the loudest voice, who should raise their level of play and leadership remained drowned out. I mean, we're talking about two guys in Jones and Stephenson who play a mere portion of the minutes in a game, neither considered anyting more than a role player off the bench.

Where are Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and Darren Collison? How about old pros, James Posey and Jeff Foster? They've already let a minor issue (seriously, no 20-year old rookie should make the locker room so crazy) fester into a problem. How long before they're desperate enough to do something about it and save the season?

http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/3/7/2036786/wells-stephensons-immaturity-overshadows-talent

Looks like Dahntay Jones is mad that Lance doesn't give him the ball 5 out of 6 times down the floor unlike AJ Price. That's what this garbage is about. Dahntay doesn't get the ball enough. Shocker.

Deadshot
03-07-2011, 11:24 PM
I am thinking there is some correlation to the trades that were trying to be made at the deadline. I wondered then if player morale would change. Team chemistry has not been the same since then.

Or perhaps its the fact that we played OKC and then Dallas/Houston on the road in a short stretch.

If anything, I think the potential trade could have brought the players closer together. I remember reading that several players were relieved Josh was still on the team.

Professor S
03-07-2011, 11:25 PM
proof? I dont doubt some players dont like each other but if it affects there on the floor game that is really un professional.

http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/3/7/2036786/wells-stephensons-immaturity-overshadows-talent

Day-V
03-07-2011, 11:28 PM
Dahntay can get over it.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 11:29 PM
http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/3/7/2036786/wells-stephensons-immaturity-overshadows-talent

Looks like Dahntay Jones is mad that Lance doesn't give him the ball 5 out of 6 times down the floor unlike AJ Price. That's what this garbage is about. Dahntay doesn't get the ball enough. Shocker.

Wowsers... Hit the nail on the head there.

Wow. WOW. Wow.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:30 PM
http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/3/7/2036786/wells-stephensons-immaturity-overshadows-talent

Looks like Dahntay Jones is mad that Lance doesn't give him the ball 5 out of 6 times down the floor unlike AJ Price. That's what this garbage is about. Dahntay doesn't get the ball enough. Shocker.

Ya poor dantahy Lance tries to get others the ball and datahy freaks out :laugh:

jeffg-body
03-07-2011, 11:30 PM
Hell, I am just glad the players care enough to have a player's only meeting to discuss the recent issues.

TheDon
03-07-2011, 11:31 PM
It is somewhat surprising the way Wells unloaded some of that stuff to JMV about Lance. Listening to Lance do his postgame interviews lately seemed like maybe he was on the right path and really maturing, but according to Wells he makes it seem like it was an ongoing inevitability that Lance would cause some sort of a problem.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 11:32 PM
I like Wells, but sometimes he kind of makes something out of nothing so perhaps that's a factor too. In this case, I don't think so though.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:32 PM
and Dantay is the Vet ? thats just as immature as Lance

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 11:34 PM
Here is the Mike Wells interview.


http://www.1070thefan.com/jmv/podcast.aspx

Sookie
03-07-2011, 11:40 PM
"Getting other guys involved" is not exactly what Lance has been doing.

He's had the ball in his hand's practically every second on offense, until he either passes or shoots. I know you guys are excited about Lance and his talent, but that's obnoxious if you've ever played with a person like that. It really doesn't get the rest of the team involved, and players get annoyed.

However..and this is a big however..because I like DJones..but still. Dahntay is not the right guy to criticize anyone for that. Because he does the exact same thing..except, at least Lance will pass it instead of taking a really stupid shot.

Mackey_Rose
03-07-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm surprised to see Wells be so blunt. Lance has talent, but this kind thing is really, really far from surprising.

Bball
03-07-2011, 11:47 PM
Can I repeat what I said the other day about how odd it was they completely held Lance out all season and then as soon as his court case was settled (2/3rds of the way into the season) they decide to carve serious minutes for him in the rotation. For a team talking playoffs, that's just odd. I don't care how you slice it... it's odd...

MunciePacerBabe
03-07-2011, 11:50 PM
Or perhaps its the fact that we played OKC and then Dallas/Houston on the road in a short stretch.

If anything, I think the potential trade could have brought the players closer together. I remember reading that several players were relieved Josh was still on the team.

Let's hope that is the case. I know I am glad that the potential trade failed. So glad to hear about the player's relief regarding Josh.

Just the thought of losing a fellow teammate/employee/worker that you like can play havoc with the head. Imagine how the ones who were being considered for the trade may have felt?...especially if they like their surroundings. We have a bunch of young guys that appear on the surface to like each other and who are bonding....they will pull it back together! Go Pacers!

Pacersalltheway10
03-07-2011, 11:51 PM
DC just disappeared in this this. Could this be affecting his game?

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:52 PM
"Getting other guys involved" is not exactly what Lance has been doing.

He's had the ball in his hand's practically every second on offense, until he either passes or shoots. I know you guys are excited about Lance and his talent, but that's obnoxious if you've ever played with a person like that. It really doesn't get the rest of the team involved, and players get annoyed.

However..and this is a big however..because I like DJones..but still. Dahntay is not the right guy to criticize anyone for that. Because he does the exact same thing..except, at least Lance will pass it instead of taking a really stupid shot.

Listen too the interview Wells said he was the best passing pg over the last few games.

Again I call :bs: he was being unselfish and passing and making others better. If that countuines only time will tell. But over his last few games he was very good passing pg and making players better. You are biased if you dont agree with that. Again thats only a 4gm stretch.

imawhat
03-07-2011, 11:52 PM
I love Lance as a basketball player, but man there are a lot of red flags going up everywhere.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 11:52 PM
Can I repeat what I said the other day about how odd it was they completely held Lance out all season and then as soon as his court case was settled (2/3rds of the way into the season) they decide to carve serious minutes for him in the rotation. For a team talking playoffs, that's just odd. I don't care how you slice it... it's odd...

I think it has to do with he's already very talented and he needed minutes as soon as possible to help the team.

His defensive issues were overblown the whole time. It's not good, but he's got years to fix it and at least it's not a lack of effort issue.

Bball
03-07-2011, 11:53 PM
I think the trade that didn't happen... and now Lance getting serious minutes have combined to tell the players "Our goal is NOT the playoffs this season".

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:54 PM
I love Lance as a basketball player, but man there are a lot of red flags going up everywhere.

agree he better clean his act up

90'sNBARocked
03-07-2011, 11:54 PM
Who on this team has the clout to lead one of these meetings? Anyone think perhaps this kind of intra-team strife coming immediately after Lance's entry into the lineup is more than just a coincidence?

I could see that

Sookie
03-07-2011, 11:56 PM
Listen too the interview Wells said he was the best passing pg over the last few games.

Again I call :bs: he was being unselfish and passing and making others better. If that countuines only time will tell. But over his last few games he was very good passing pg and making players better. You are biased if you dont agree with that. Again thats only a 4gm stretch.

Allen Iverson is a talented passer. He averaged more career assists than Chauncey Billups. I'd say he's a more talented passer than Chauncey, actually.

Which one would you want running the team?
Do you consider AI unselfish?

Dominating the ball to that extent is dominating the ball. You play basketball, you've never played with a guy like that?

It doesn't shock me that it bothers some guys on the team.

Really doesn't shock me that it's bothered DJones the most :laugh:

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:57 PM
Allen Iverson is a talented passer. He averaged more career assists than Chauncey Billups. I'd say he's a more talented passer than Chauncey, actually.

Which one would you want running the team?
Do you consider AI unselfish?

Dominating the ball to that extent is dominating the ball. You play basketball, you've never played with a guy like that?

It doesn't shock me that it bothers some guys on the team.

Really doesn't shock me that it's bothered DJones the most :laugh:

AI made others better. But again we have not seen enoght of Lances game to judge wait till next year at this time to pass judgement.

EDIT: again I will say I want Lance playing SG or SF not pg. But denying his passing skills he did the past few games in wrong

Heisenberg
03-07-2011, 11:59 PM
I feel like we're on the brink of disaster. Bird leaves and Danny gets traded type disaster.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 12:01 AM
I feel like we're on the brink of disaster. Bird leaves and Danny gets traded type disaster.

Neither scenario would be disastrous.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:02 AM
I feel like we're on the brink of disaster. Bird leaves and Danny gets traded type disaster.

BLOW IT UP!!!!!

Day-V
03-08-2011, 12:02 AM
He's had the ball in his hand's practically every second on offense, until he either passes or shoots.

So did Mark Jackson.

kester99
03-08-2011, 12:02 AM
Lance is taking fewest shots per minute of play than any of our currently playing PGs. That's a fact. What people see when they watch him may be something different.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 12:03 AM
AI made others better. But again we have not seen enoght of Lances game to judge wait till next year at this time to pass judgement.

EDIT: again I will say I want Lance playing SG or SF not pg. But denying his passing skills he did the past few games in wrong


I'm not denying his passing talent. That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying he's ball dominant, and THAT trait can bother players, particularly with the extent that he is ball dominant.

I will say, that's partially unfair for the older guys to get upset about. Lance is a rookie, he's going to play..he needs to play..how he's comfortable with. If we're going to give him a few minutes to let him develop than the older guys need to work with that trait..not shout at him or become annoyed with him for it. That's not going to help him improve, it'll just make him dig his heels in.

This is one of the reasons why I like him at the SG spot. It makes Lance an offensive option, not THE offensive option. It allows either DC or AJ to pick when Lance gets to be ball dominant, instead of having him do it every play.

but anyway, the fact that you think AI makes players better means we have a completely different definition of what makes a player better. Actually, explains a lot of our differences here.

kester99
03-08-2011, 12:03 AM
So did Mark Jackson.

So does any PG....it's kind of the definition.

Heisenberg
03-08-2011, 12:04 AM
Neither scenario would be disastrous.
I'm not saying it would be either/or. I'm talking about the circumstances. Instead of Bird retiring because he wants to go happily chill in French Lick he retires because he feels like he built a mess that it'll take someone else to fix and instead of Danny being traded because it makes longterm sense for the franchise it's because he asks to be moved.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:05 AM
I'm not denying his passing talent. That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying he's ball dominant, and THAT trait can bother players, particularly with the extent that he is ball dominant.

Which is one of the reasons why I like him at the SG spot. It makes Lance an offensive option, not THE offensive option.

but anyway, the fact that you think AI makes players better means we have a completely different definition of what makes a player better. Actually, explains a lot of our differences here.

Name one good talented pg who isnt ball dominate?? EVERYONE OF THEM IS Chris Paul check
Deron Williams check
Steve Nash check
should I keep going that is the pg's job to create for others as well as for themselfes

only ones who arent are ones who have ball dominate SG like Fisher he has Kobe who does 80% of the ball handling. Same with Miami same with Sacremento and Jordan Pippen era Bulls

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 12:06 AM
"Getting other guys involved" is not exactly what Lance has been doing.

He's had the ball in his hand's practically every second on offense, until he either passes or shoots. I know you guys are excited about Lance and his talent, but that's obnoxious if you've ever played with a person like that. It really doesn't get the rest of the team involved, and players get annoyed.

However..and this is a big however..because I like DJones..but still. Dahntay is not the right guy to criticize anyone for that. Because he does the exact same thing..except, at least Lance will pass it instead of taking a really stupid shot.

I agree with that, and also think part of it is jealousy. Lancer has real talent, and also a big ego. The vets like DJ are probably not cool with Lance acting humble and diverting to them

Day-V
03-08-2011, 12:07 AM
I actually don't mind playing with a guy who dominates the ball, provided he passes to open guys. I'm all for that.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:08 AM
I actually don't mind playing with a guy who dominates the ball, provided he passes to open guys. I'm all for that.

and they make your job easier by getting you your shot.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 12:09 AM
One is dominant, while one dominates.

Carry on.

gummy
03-08-2011, 12:11 AM
The most worrying thing for me about all this is the stuff about Lance's immaturity. The kid's got talent and I want to root for him, but every time I think it might be OK to another red flag goes up. Yeah, I know he's young and he has time to mature and yet - it seems like with everything he has gone through lately you'd expect that he might have grasped the need to tone it down a bit.

Acting like a 15-16 year old because he can get away with it? Hearing that makes me feel kind of sick to my stomach, waiting for the next shoe to drop. Yeah, DJ is the last guy that needs to be talking about sharing the ball but it sounds like it's more than just DJ concerned with Lance's play on the court. It's about Lance's overall attitude and approach to the job, and "vets" is plural.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 12:14 AM
Name one good talented pg who isnt ball dominate?? EVERYONE OF THEM IS Chris Paul check
Deron Williams check
Steve Nash check
should I keep going that is the pg's job to create for others as well as for themselfes

only ones who arent are ones who have ball dominate SG like Fisher he has Kobe who does 80% of the ball handling. Same with Miami same with Sacremento and Jordan Pippen era Bulls

All of those guys are capable of running an offense that doesn't revolve entirely around them dribbling the ball around for twenty seconds and passing it out to someone who essentially has no choice but to shoot it, because if they don't, said player is just going to dribble the ball around again, to get another shot.

Some of them, like Steve and CP3, have offensive systems that are set up for them to do that. But Rondo, for example, is a fantastic PG, who..you know..runs an offense that includes other guys making a few decisions with the ball.

There are varying degrees of being ball dominant. DC is ball dominant, but not to the extent that Lance is.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 12:16 AM
Im sure he probably comes across a little cocky, but wouldn't be surprised if he treat someone like Danny or Jeff, differently from someone like DJ

Kind of like players like DG to Lance have earned respect, where DJ hasnt really done much, so Lance treats him inn that way

Unclebuck
03-08-2011, 12:17 AM
I have found that more often than not players only meetings do help in the short term. So I think the Pacers will play much better Tuesday night. But the impact of a players only meeting is almost always very short 1 or 2 games

Sookie
03-08-2011, 12:18 AM
Im sure he probably comes across a little cocky, but wouldn't be surprised if he treat someone like Danny or Jeff, differently from someone like DJ

Kind of like players like DG to Lance have earned respect, where DJ hasnt really done much, so Lance treats him inn that way

The funny thing to me is, they seem like they are always together (DJones and Lance)

No one was cheering harder than Dahntay when Lance made a good play the other game (I forget when, but Dahntay was up cheering)

I kind of though DJ was Lance's babysitter. Kind of shocking to me, that those are the two having the problems. Maybe it's just too much Alpha personality there..

Day-V
03-08-2011, 12:19 AM
I don't see why all this talk is going on about Lance's style of play, anyway. His play hasn't been the problem this past week. Hell, the times he has been on the court have been the only times the team has looked halfway coherent on offense.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 12:20 AM
There are varying degrees of being ball dominant. DC is ball dominant, but not to the extent that Lance is.

I think the best way to quantify "ball dominant" is by judging how quickly they pass the ball when they first get over the half court line. Does the PG hold on to the ball while he dribbles and looks to make his move? Or does he give up the rock quickly after crossing the half court line?

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:20 AM
All of those guys are capable of running an offense that doesn't revolve entirely around them dribbling the ball around for twenty seconds and passing it out to someone who essentially has no choice but to shoot it, because if they don't, said player is just going to dribble the ball around again, to get another shot.

Some of them, like Steve and CP3, have offensive systems that are set up for them to do that. But Rondo, for example, is a fantastic PG, who..you know..runs an offense that includes other guys making a few decisions with the ball.

There are varying degrees of being ball dominant. DC is ball dominant, but not to the extent that Lance is.

Again you have only seen 4 gms at the NBA level. How about we wait untill next season when he gets coached up a bit to judge in Chauncy Billups 2nd year he wasnt a very good pg and looked like he would be a career backup same with Steve Nash. I dont have much faith he will allow himself to be coached which will result in him being a SG. But the guy doest wait to pass like you suggest he actually did a good job of running the PnR offense. He was quick in his decsions and made the right basketball play i dont know how you can say he was playing selfish. But whatever, you can choose to think whatever you want.

kester99
03-08-2011, 12:20 AM
The way Mike Wells characterizes Lance shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Having said that though, there were humorous comments from some of the players some time ago regarding Lance talking less and listening more. But this doesn't mean it's a terminal situation. He can grow, I hope. Even if he doesn't work out, for that reason, he's not one of the key pieces yet, and his absence from the floor can probably only help stabilize the chemistry again.

Let's see what comes out of this meeting. The players said it was all good. I'll listen to them before speculation by the media. The Philly game will be a good indicator of team morale, and how much they can bounce back after that all-around poor showing at Houston.

ChristianDudley
03-08-2011, 12:21 AM
I have found that more often than not players only meetings do help in the short term. So I think the Pacers will play much better Tuesday night. But the impact of a players only meeting is almost always very short 1 or 2 games

Anything will help!! At least the Bobcats blew a chance at a win tonight!!! :D

kester99
03-08-2011, 12:21 AM
All of those guys are capable of running an offense that doesn't revolve entirely around them dribbling the ball around for twenty seconds and passing it out to someone who essentially has no choice but to shoot it, because if they don't, said player is just going to dribble the ball around again, to get another shot.

I really don't know which game you're watching. Please cite a time and game we could look up? I just don't remember seeing that. It certainly didn't happen in The Dallas game. I was so honked at the Houston game I deleted it. I can go review it on NBA Broadband, though.

imawhat
03-08-2011, 12:24 AM
Seriously, Lance has spent plenty of time setting up plays; I'm not sure why this is an issue. He's not entirely ball dominant.

But let's say he was. And all he could do was break people off the dribble to create easy plays for someone else. So what? The goal on offense is to score. If you can successfully run a pick and roll all game long, what else matters?

It's like complaining about Shaq because he didn't have a jumpshot. What's the point if he can dunk it on people all game long?

That's a hyperbolic example, but Lance has an uncanny ability to get really easy shots for his teammates. I'd say it's more valuable, in ways, than orchestrating an offense because there's so little an opponent can do about it in crunch time. He'll pass over a small guy and he'll go around someone with a similar height. He leaves at the perfect time on picks and he has great timing instincts on his passes.


Having said all this, he still doesn't seem worth the effort. I can't think of many guys (or any) with his maturity issues that worked out.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 12:25 AM
The funny thing to me is, they seem like they are always together (DJones and Lance)

No one was cheering harder than Dahntay when Lance made a good play the other game (I forget when, but Dahntay was up cheering)

I kind of though DJ was Lance's babysitter. Kind of shocking to me, that those are the two having the problems. Maybe it's just too much Alpha personality there..

Good point

Thats the other school of thought. The big brother , little brother syndrome. Hanging out together , everything's cool, next minute arguing, fighting and fussing. Something that happens in every family with 2 or more boys

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:26 AM
I really don't know which game you're watching. Please cite a time and game we could look up? I just don't remember seeing that. It certainly didn't happen in The Dallas game. I was so honked at the Houston game I deleted it. I can go review it on NBA Broadband, though.

Lance has really been doing the opposite of that. He was quick to get into the sets and run the plays. But Sookie I guess sees it very different.


DC is the one who has been doing that the past month. Hopefully he can improve and Lance can keep it up. And not play selfish like DJ which Sookie already seems he is doing but again whatever.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 12:27 AM
I don't see why all this talk is going on about Lance's style of play, anyway. His play hasn't been the problem this past week. Hell, the times he has been on the court have been the only times the team has looked halfway coherent on offense.

The shouting was about his style of play along with his attitude. Which was reported.

Someone said it was because Lance wasn't giving DJones the ball enough. Probably part of it. But the comment was "other guys" which is more than one.

My perspective from the get go was Lance was too ball dominant. Whether you guys agree or not, sure seems like members of the team do.

They need to work with him though, not shout at him over it. But he needs to also work with them.

cdash
03-08-2011, 12:27 AM
Honestly, Lance is the biggest reason why I would be hesitant to sign Zach Randolph. I subscribe to Bill Simmons' theory that you can have one headcase, but two is a problem.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:30 AM
Seriously, Lance has spent plenty of time setting up plays; I'm not sure why this is an issue. He's not entirely ball dominant.

But let's say he was. And all he could do was break people off the dribble to create easy plays for someone else. So what? The goal on offense is to score. If you can successfully run a pick and roll all game long, what else matters?

It's like complaining about Shaq because he didn't have a jumpshot. What's the point if he can dunk it on people all game long?

That's a hyperbolic example, but Lance has an uncanny ability to get really easy shots for his teammates. I'd say it's more valuable, in ways, than orchestrating an offense because there's so little an opponent can do about it in crunch time. He'll pass over a small guy and he'll go around someone with a similar height. He leaves at the perfect time on picks and he has great timing instincts on his passes.


Having said all this, he still doesn't seem worth the effort. I can't think of many guys (or any) with his maturity issues that worked out.

Ya he better get with Roy and Paul in the off seson hopefully they can knock some sense into him. J Tinsley and Shawne Williams were really talented but they blew it hopefully Lance doesnt.

Ozwalt72
03-08-2011, 12:30 AM
I've always seemed to see Dahntay and Lance close to each other pregame and stuff...almost buddy buddy. I think maybe Dahntay's trying to mentor Lance (in demeanor, professionalism) and that occasionally they butt heads while Lance adjusts.

I honestly doubt the player meeting is about these two. How about some accountability defensively?

Day-V
03-08-2011, 12:31 AM
How about some accountability defensively?

I'm all for it.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:31 AM
I've always seemed to see Dahntay and Lance close to each other pregame and stuff...almost buddy buddy. I think maybe Dahntay's trying to mentor Lance (in demeanor, professionalism) and that occasionally they butt heads while Lance adjusts.

I honestly doubt the player meeting is about these two. How about some accountability defensively?

really our biggest problem that and stupid TO's

Ozwalt72
03-08-2011, 12:32 AM
The funny thing to me is, they seem like they are always together (DJones and Lance)

No one was cheering harder than Dahntay when Lance made a good play the other game (I forget when, but Dahntay was up cheering)

I kind of though DJ was Lance's babysitter. Kind of shocking to me, that those are the two having the problems. Maybe it's just too much Alpha personality there..

Heh I decided to post previously before getting to this. And said about the same thing.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 12:33 AM
really our biggest problem that and stupid TO's

Boxing out.

imawhat
03-08-2011, 12:34 AM
I have found that more often than not players only meetings do help in the short term. So I think the Pacers will play much better Tuesday night. But the impact of a players only meeting is almost always very short 1 or 2 games

In general, I've seen some crazy things happen after things boil over.

As an example, I was on a really bad softball team a couple years back. We were 1-10, and everything unraveled between that 11th game and the following practice where half the team didn't show up. There were insults going back and forth, namecalling, etc.. We faced the 1st place, undefeated that weekend and just demolished them, playing together as a team.

Also, one of my favorite games from a couple of seasons ago was that road victory after Jack/Ford had their blowup. We came out and embarrassed Charlotte. I wouldn't be surprised if we played really well tomorrow.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:35 AM
Honestly, Lance is the biggest reason why I would be hesitant to sign Zach Randolph. I subscribe to Bill Simmons' theory that you can have one headcase, but two is a problem.

Actually Zach is the perfect examble of Lance. Zach was so inmature at 20 it wasnt even funny and was talented as hell. Hopefully Lance can follow Zachs footsteps and mature.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:36 AM
Boxing out.

I give up on that Josh and Tyler and Roy dont know how

cdash
03-08-2011, 12:38 AM
Actually Zach is the perfect examble of Lance. Zach was so inmature at 20 it wasnt even funny and was talented as hell. Hopefully Lance can follow Zachs footsteps and mature.

Yeah, but I'm not 100% certain that Zach still doesn't indulge in legally dubious behavior.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:40 AM
Yeah, but I'm not 100% certain that Zach still doesn't indulge in legally dubious behavior.

well at least he doesnt get caught if he does;). His teammates seem to like him in the locker room now. He wasnt like early on ethier I think he was like Lance that way also he thought he couldnt be taught and he knew it all.

cdash
03-08-2011, 12:42 AM
well at least he doesnt get caught if he does;). His teammates seem to like him in the locker room now. He wasnt like early on ethier I think he was like Lance that way also he thought he couldnt be taught and he knew it all.

I'm just hesitant to get two guys who may have character concerns around each other, that's all I'm trying to say.

McKeyFan
03-08-2011, 12:45 AM
Lance penetrates and either goes to the hoop or kicks the ball out for open shots. He doesn't wait until the clock is almost expired.

This talk of him being "too ball dominant" is just plain inaccurate.

He's a heck of an offensive player. Sounds like a little bit of jealousy to me.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 12:48 AM
So according to Sookie Lance holds the ball too long making him "a ball dominant player" I would like to know how you call our want to be point guards in DC and AJ? They are two times worse ball hoggers than Lance and can't even make a simple pass.

Day-V
03-08-2011, 12:49 AM
So according to Sookie Lance holds the ball too long making him "a ball dominant player" I would like to know how you call our want to be point guards in DC and AJ? They are two times worse ball hoggers than Lance and can't even make a simple pass.

Sometimes I wonder if A.J. Price thinks the area inside the 3 point line is Lava.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:52 AM
So according to Sookie Lance holds the ball too long making him "a ball dominant player" I would like to know how you call our want to be point guards in DC and AJ? They are two times worse ball hoggers than Lance and can't even make a simple pass.

that will never change and its sad but whatever

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 12:53 AM
Sometimes I wonder if A.J. Price thinks the area inside the 3 point line is Lava.

I think he does and won't pass the ball inside because it would get burned too, he rather shoot a fadeway three pointer.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 01:20 AM
So according to Sookie Lance holds the ball too long making him "a ball dominant player" I would like to know how you call our want to be point guards in DC and AJ? They are two times worse ball hoggers than Lance and can't even make a simple pass.

the rest of their teammates aren't annoyed with those two.

Whether you think I'm wrong or not, I just said what the article essentially said and offered the opinion that I agreed with them.

I didn't ever say that Lance wasn't making good decisions or that he wasn't a willing passer. I said he's extremely ball dominant, and the entire offense revolved around him dribbling and being the offense when he was in. And how whether it was efficient or not, that can annoy teammates. You guys took the "20 seconds" and ran with it, but missed my point. Oh well.

He's ball dominant because if he's given the ball, 99% of the time, only two (or one) people on any possession will touch the ball. Lance, and the person Lance passed it to. Some don't have a problem with that style of play. I do.

Maybe the vets just don't see the game the way you guys do. You guys should talk to them about it. Tell them how wrong they are.

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-08-2011, 01:23 AM
There was a moment (I believe in the 1st quarter) where the TV broadcast caught Jeff yelling at Lance. At the moment, I didn't think much of it, but then later you heard about Jeff going off in the huddle, and then "vets" being displeased with Lance. Jeff has seen this all before. If he's having trouble with Lance, that's a big red flag for me.

I'm increasingly leaning towards "He's not worth the trouble." Bird should know to not be enamored with talented knuckleheads after his experience with Shawne Williams. Give them enough second chances and they will burn you. The warning signs are here. How much longer are we going to keep overlooking them while we hope Stephenson can be some sort of savior for this franchise?

Day-V
03-08-2011, 01:23 AM
I'll tell Dahntay. That's no problem.

ilive4sports
03-08-2011, 01:29 AM
Lance penetrates and either goes to the hoop or kicks the ball out for open shots. He doesn't wait until the clock is almost expired.

This talk of him being "too ball dominant" is just plain inaccurate.

He's a heck of an offensive player. Sounds like a little bit of jealousy to me.

If it really is this Lance/DJ issue that is issue here, I definitely think jealousy is a rather big factor in this. Why? Because Lance playing with DJ is bad for DJ in so many ways.

1. DJ doesn't get the ball as often when Lance is in because of how Lance plays. DJ wants the ball right away so he can dribble for ever and then take a bad shot.

2. Lance takes some of DJ's minutes at the SG spot.

3. Lance is arguably a better player than DJ. DJ knows this and it wasn't a problem when Lance didn't play. DJ can feel his minutes sliding away.

4. DJ may be upset because he has been Lance's "big brother" and now he is getting over shadowed by this rookie that isn't getting him the ball as much as he wants.

DJ is definitely a ME type of player. I haven't liked his play at all this year. Yeah he had a hot game or two, but he's an incredible black hole on offense.

Yes Lance has the ball in his hands a lot when he plays. But you can't doubt that he is making plays with the ball in his hands. He is making great passes, hitting guys who are open, getting to the basket (just not finishing well). He does try to set up offensive sets. They don't always work, mostly they aren't at the fault of Lance though. The second unit hasn't been much of a "team" unit since Vogel took over.

I really hope this isn't a whole team issue with Lance getting PT. I would hope that our guys are more professional than this.

And I really hope Lance starts to mature quickly. No reason to act like a 15 year old. I think it may be because he is finally showing his talent on the court so he has gotten cocky again. We were hearing that he was maturing earlier this year, but now that he gets play time and shows he can play it might be going to his head.

ilive4sports
03-08-2011, 01:34 AM
the rest of their teammates aren't annoyed with those two.

Whether you think I'm wrong or not, I just said what the article essentially said and offered the opinion that I agreed with them.

I didn't ever say that Lance wasn't making good decisions or that he wasn't a willing passer. I said he's extremely ball dominant, and the entire offense revolved around him dribbling and being the offense when he was in. And how whether it was efficient or not, that can annoy teammates. You guys took the "20 seconds" and ran with it, but missed my point. Oh well.

He's ball dominant because if he's given the ball, 99% of the time, only two (or one) people on any possession will touch the ball. Lance, and the person Lance passed it to. Some don't have a problem with that style of play. I do.

Maybe the vets just don't see the game the way you guys do. You guys should talk to them about it. Tell them how wrong they are.

Now let's not pretend that the second unit hasn't been playing like this since Vogel took over. Its always been AJ brings the ball up and shoots it himself, passes it to DJ who holds and shoots it himself, or AJ passes it to Tyler who holds it and shoots it himself. Only time its different is when George gets the ball because he's willing to share.

dgranger17
03-08-2011, 01:37 AM
I actually don't mind playing with a guy who dominates the ball, provided he passes to open guys. I'm all for that.

That's what she said.....

Lance makes plays. He might dribble a little too much sometimes, but he hasn't played that much. Is he disrupting flow or chemistry? Possibly, but what do you except from a guy who's only played 4 games? He has a decent mid-range game, he's good at taking it to the hole, and he's good at passing it to an open man if he decides not to take it to the hole. Other than his defense, I've been extremely impressed of a guy who's only played in 4 games. Luckily, there's usually a guy on the other team who Lance can guard regardless of position. With Lance, George, and Dahntay on the court at the same time Lance doesn't necessarily have to guard the opponents point guard. I love Rush, but hopefully sooner rather than later we can see Lance, Rush, and Dahntay in the 2nd unit and George starting.

Conference Finals

Day-V
03-08-2011, 01:43 AM
That's what she said.....

Damn you.

Psyren
03-08-2011, 02:03 AM
Okay so I just barely skimmed through this thread. Someone explain to me.

Basically, people are saying Lance is a "disaster" because Dahntay "Black Hole" Jones b****ed about not getting the ball enough?

Are you f***ing kidding me? Where are we getting the "Lance is a disaster" crap from? He's been our best PG over the past 4 games. Chemistry issues exist, I'm aware. But why is everyone now back on the "bash lance" idea?

I like Dahntay. But f*** him. Seriously. He's the biggest black hole I've ever seen play basketball. Once he touches it, no chance in hell you're getting it back.

He can deal. Lance has looked for everyone on the floor, and has done a nice job.

Someone please explain if I simply am missing something.

If all this is over Dahntay being a little b***h, then fine. Let him b***h.

EDIT:Let me add these points as well.

1. Wells is an idiot. Odds are he's blowing this far out of proportion (Or so we can hope).
2. It might help if we had a leader on this team to calm things down. Yes, I'm looking at you Danny Granger/Roy Hibbert/Anyone else who would care to step up.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 02:26 AM
Now let's not pretend that the second unit hasn't been playing like this since Vogel took over. Its always been AJ brings the ball up and shoots it himself, passes it to DJ who holds and shoots it himself, or AJ passes it to Tyler who holds it and shoots it himself. Only time its different is when George gets the ball because he's willing to share.

That's a fair point. You give the ball to Dahntay or Hans and they will shoot it, regardless. And quite frankly, AJ enables them both. (Although, can't say I blame him, if not getting the ball to DJones every time down the court means you get chewed out..)

But I doubt Lance's style would change with the starters. That's how he plays.
It's just that style. Maybe he'll change a bit as he develops. And it's not even close to our biggest concern with him. But it's the truth.

You guys are on me about AJ. Well, if he's shooting crappy I'll say he's shooting crappy. If he's turning the ball over, I'll say he's turning the ball over.

You guys won't even admit that Lance is more ball dominant than anyone else on our team not named Dahntay Jones? Come on. That's just a fact. Whether the vets are right in being annoyed with him or not, doesn't change that it's a fact.

Go back and watch him play. Yes, he makes a nice pass. And yes, he gets an assist off of it. But no one else makes a decision with the ball, unless Lance didn't get to touch it that possession. (Although, to be fair, that was a bit different in this last game, until garbage time. Notice how poorly he played though.) The guy is talented, but he's got his offensive flaws. And it's okay to admit it.

That's not even saying that Dahntay should be yelling at Lance. Lance has only played 4 games. He deserves to be able to play comfortably and the Vets should allow him to adjust. (and that's not to mention..of all people to be yelling at that specific issue..) But perhaps the combo of the immaturity and the ball dominance is the problem.

edit: Really nice to hear though, that PG is a "perfect rookie"

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-08-2011, 02:40 AM
I honestly think the vets are more upset about the defensive side of the ball. Yeah, like Sookie said, the ball dominating can get annoying, but I know when I play I'm much more annoyed by the guy who can't stay with his man.

If he's dominating the ball and it's leading to good results, then I'm fine with it. However, if he completely disregards the other side of the ball, then the rest of the team is forced to cover for him and they end up all looking bad. It isn't just Lance is awful at defense, it becomes the Indiana Pacers are awful at defense. Maybe that's what the vets are taking an issue with? Especially if Lance is as immature and unwilling to learn as Wells says. I know that would wear thin on me real quick.

PaceBalls
03-08-2011, 03:48 AM
At least Lance isn't dribbling at the top of the key for 20 seconds like DC. Talk about ball dominating... Lance is a breath of fresh air compared to DC.

Also, I just don't get how AJ is the odd man out in this rotation. DC needs to be the one getting under 15 mins a game.

I see the PG depth chart as AJ, Lance then DC right now.

I can see the vets *****ing about a lack of defensive effort or scrambling for the loose balls. Another reason AJ should be starting.

Psyren
03-08-2011, 03:58 AM
At least Lance isn't dribbling at the top of the key for 20 seconds like DC. Talk about ball dominating... Lance is a breath of fresh air compared to DC.

Also, I just don't get how AJ is the odd man out in this rotation. DC needs to be the one getting under 15 mins a game.

I see the PG depth chart as AJ, Lance then DC right now.

I can see the vets *****ing about a lack of defensive effort or scrambling for the loose balls. Another reason AJ should be starting.

Agreed.

And my problems are also with the whole team defensively. Not just Lance. Not just AJ. Not just DC.

EVERYBODY. Every single person is missing assignments, making slow reactions, and generally just playing ****** defense.

Every person on the entire team needs to take responsibility for their own lack of defense instead of b****ing about their teammates.

spazzxb
03-08-2011, 04:17 AM
He's had the ball in his hand's practically every second on offense, until he either passes or shoots.

This describes every point guard in the nba. Lance doesn't just iso and run the clock out. If he can't make something happen in a few seconds he gets rid of the ball.

able
03-08-2011, 05:27 AM
For those convinced this is a DJ v Lance problem, i suggest you listen to the podcast in full.
For those convinced it is his pg skills or ball hogging, see above.

This is about Lance as a person and a player, about a 20yr old rookie thinking he is entitled, thinking he knows better/best lika any adolescent kid does at times.
This is about the red flags that prevented NY to pick the kid up in the 2nd round.
This is about LB once again risking it all on talent and praying on a good outcome with the "problematic side" of things, Shawne was not the only one, Artest hung around longer, we drafted other problems, heck gave him q guaranteed contract and send him packing before the season started.

These are very serious issues

They don't just go away, they need dealing with and seeing his history so far i don;t think LB is the one who can do or wants to do that.

Gold
03-08-2011, 05:39 AM
And I really hope Lance starts to mature quickly. No reason to act like a 15 year old. I think it may be because he is finally showing his talent on the court so he has gotten cocky again. We were hearing that he was maturing earlier this year, but now that he gets play time and shows he can play it might be going to his head.

I don't see being cocky/arrogant as a problem. It's just a personality trait. He's just being him. What I would be worried about is if he's really arrogant to the point he doesn't feel he doesn't need to learn from anyone like what has been reported. That would be a problem for his development and the team... but from what I've seen in interviews, It sounds like he's trying to learn as much as he can. But who knows?

spazzxb
03-08-2011, 05:49 AM
A second round pick is risking it all? Seriously?


For those convinced this is a DJ v Lance problem, i suggest you listen to the podcast in full.
For those convinced it is his pg skills or ball hogging, see above.

This is about Lance as a person and a player, about a 20yr old rookie thinking he is entitled, thinking he knows better/best lika any adolescent kid does at times.
This is about the red flags that prevented NY to pick the kid up in the 2nd round.
This is about LB once again risking it all on talent and praying on a good outcome with the "problematic side" of things, Shawne was not the only one, Artest hung around longer, we drafted other problems, heck gave him q guaranteed contract and send him packing before the season started.

These are very serious issues

They don't just go away, they need dealing with and seeing his history so far i don;t think LB is the one who can do or wants to do that.

Speed
03-08-2011, 07:24 AM
Lance is a guy who needs a veteran coach and a veteran mentor. Someone to tone down the arrogance without squelching the talent and ability. His arrogance and the way he carries himself on the court reminds me of Gary Payton without the lockdown Defense of course...

Hey swagger can be good, IF your willing to back it up by outworking everybody and actually learning too.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 07:40 AM
I wonder if DJ was yelling and fighting with Danny for letting a 38 years old player destroy him, my guess is nope, I wonder if somebody was fighting and yelling at DJ for sucking big time and been a huge black hole, my guess is nope, at the end of the day nobody has earned to b**** and complaint about anybody because pretty much everybody is sucking a$$.

Gamble1
03-08-2011, 08:39 AM
Honestly, Lance is the biggest reason why I would be hesitant to sign Zach Randolph. I subscribe to Bill Simmons' theory that you can have one headcase, but two is a problem.
If we sign a coach like Mike Brown then and give Lance a mentor as mentioned above then I think he would be ok.

The fact is we need talent that is going to be consistent and Zach would provide that Lance not so much. If getting rid of Lance would make Bird feel better about signing Zach then I am personally packing the bags for Lance.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 08:42 AM
the rest of their teammates aren't annoyed with those two.

When it comes to AJ, you are right. The team is not annoyed with him. They think his role needs to be much larger. It is nothing new, or in reaction to a terrible, terrible stretch from Collison. That has been the case all season.


Maybe the vets just don't see the game the way you guys do. You guys should talk to them about it. Tell them how wrong they are.

I think most people who have played the game at a moderately high level don't see the game the way the majority of fans do. Fans get far too caught up in numbers (points per game especially) and spend less time thinking about style of play. Style of play is an extremely crucial component of team chemistry.

People can say that AJ looks for his shot too much, and I wouldn't say I disagree. However, he also looks to create for his teammates much more than DC, and he isn't always looking to make his own highlight like Lance does.

Plus it doesn't hurt that they just like the guy.


For those convinced this is a DJ v Lance problem, i suggest you listen to the podcast in full.
For those convinced it is his pg skills or ball hogging, see above.

This is about Lance as a person and a player, about a 20yr old rookie thinking he is entitled, thinking he knows better/best lika any adolescent kid does at times.
This is about the red flags that prevented NY to pick the kid up in the 2nd round.
This is about LB once again risking it all on talent and praying on a good outcome with the "problematic side" of things, Shawne was not the only one, Artest hung around longer, we drafted other problems, heck gave him q guaranteed contract and send him packing before the season started.

These are very serious issues

They don't just go away, they need dealing with and seeing his history so far i don;t think LB is the one who can do or wants to do that.

Bingo.

It's a lot like when the new kid, fresh out of college, comes into the office and can't be told how to do anything.

KevinB
03-08-2011, 09:18 AM
I agree with everyone else being concerned about Lance's maturity issues. However, if Lance was the focus of the players only meeting, than I'm more concerned with the maturity level of the rest of the team. The team's poor defense, blocking out, and turnovers should have been the focus. If they are scapegoating Lance, that is an accountability issue. Also, for how many years have we been complaining about not having anyone who can create a shot for themselves, not to mention others. Now, moreso than the last few years, with the growing number of big/strong pointguards in the East, I say give the guy more than 4 games before we run him out of town. Because, then it will just be DC and AJ that everyone is complaining about, because we are being overmatched on a nightly basis.

Tom White
03-08-2011, 10:00 AM
i think it was reported by Wells a scuffle insued saturday and lance djones had words.

lance has a ton of "hot dog" in him, i could see Bird maximizing lances value as a trade chip next season. lance has talent, but he has a long ways to go as well.

Wells was on JMV Monday and did allude to at least part of the problem being Lance. He implied that Lance seems to think he knows more, and is better than what he actually is. Well's was saying something along the lines of Lance needing to remember that he is a rookie second round draft pick, and is lucky to be in the league, rather than to be so cocky about himself.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have read more of the thread before posting. Didn't realize this was already in the thread.

Rogco
03-08-2011, 10:05 AM
I love the way Lance plays, and I don't think the Dahntay / Lance thing really stems from on the court play, but about Lance's attitude in his on the court play and his unwillingness to understand his role.

I could be wrong, but it really sounds like Lance is aggressive and possibly one of those guys who is a bit nuts, and that type of presence is very disrupting and impossible to deal with. The highschool problems, the girlfriend and stairs, the prostitute in new york on you tube and the current team issues all point towards an unhealthy volatility.

I really hope I'm wrong, and obviously this is judgement without ever having met the guy

Unfortunately we don't have any leader on this team who can stand up to that personality, apart from possibly Dahntay. Granger is the only one with the clout to do that, but he's a quiet guy, not a yell in your face throw your against a locker type of guy.

BillS
03-08-2011, 10:11 AM
Wow. Sometimes this forum is like a bunch of high school girls trying to decide if the way Johnny said "hello" means he thought they were fat or that their zits were acting up.

If Wells dishes dirt on the guy you hate, he's just scratching the surface and is revealing things you knew all along. If he dishes dirt on a guy you like, he's overblowing the situation or misinterpreting it because it is clearly everyone else's fault.

When a player states bare facts that can't be disputed by anyone familiar with the game of basketball, that introducing a new player to the rotation without practice time disrupts the flow of what has been on the floor, this is seen as some major insult and smack in the face to the new player. Huh? What was he supposed to say? If it had been about a player people thought stunk, it would have been seen as stating the obvious and trying to avoid the question of how the new player really is affecting chemistry.

And finally, we see another instance where clearly fans watching from the stands know more about what is going on than the coach or the other players on the floor. Teammates of Lance Stephenson are blind or naive or immature if they think he has an attitude or isn't playing the right way, because we see it differently. What do they know, they just play the game.

Here's what I take from all this:

1) The players care about what is going on out on the floor. That's why they get frustrated at themselves and one another.

2) There was a blowup in the locker room as the guys vented their frustration. Note it was in the locker room, behind closed doors, not by individual players going to the media and dumping on their teammates.

3) There was a player-only meeting where the players feel they sorted out how they felt about things. Why think this isn't true?

4) More players than just DJ have problems with Lance's attitude. If it was just DJ the word "teammates" would not have been used, I think Wells would happily have hung DJ out to dry if everyone else was OK with Lance's play. But, again, see item 3.

Now, finish up in the bathroom, next class is about to start.

Rogco
03-08-2011, 10:19 AM
Wow. Sometimes this forum is like a bunch of high school girls trying to decide if the way Johnny said "hello" means he thought they were fat or that their zits were acting up.

If Wells dishes dirt on the guy you hate, he's just scratching the surface and is revealing things you knew all along. If he dishes dirt on a guy you like, he's overblowing the situation or misinterpreting it because it is clearly everyone else's fault.

When a player states bare facts that can't be disputed by anyone familiar with the game of basketball, that introducing a new player to the rotation without practice time disrupts the flow of what has been on the floor, this is seen as some major insult and smack in the face to the new player. Huh? What was he supposed to say? If it had been about a player people thought stunk, it would have been seen as stating the obvious and trying to avoid the question of how the new player really is affecting chemistry.

And finally, we see another instance where clearly fans watching from the stands know more about what is going on than the coach or the other players on the floor. Teammates of Lance Stephenson are blind or naive or immature if they think he has an attitude or isn't playing the right way, because we see it differently. What do they know, they just play the game.

Here's what I take from all this:

1) The players care about what is going on out on the floor. That's why they get frustrated at themselves and one another.

2) There was a blowup in the locker room as the guys vented their frustration. Note it was in the locker room, behind closed doors, not by individual players going to the media and dumping on their teammates.

3) There was a player-only meeting where the players feel they sorted out how they felt about things. Why think this isn't true?

4) More players than just DJ have problems with Lance's attitude. If it was just DJ the word "teammates" would not have been used, I think Wells would happily have hung DJ out to dry if everyone else was OK with Lance's play. But, again, see item 3.

Now, finish up in the bathroom, next class is about to start.

Damn, I forgot this forum was only for reprinting what was reported by journalist and not open for fan interpretation. My bad. I'll just wipe my butt and get out of here....

Hicks
03-08-2011, 11:05 AM
Well, often someone's interpretation prompts a response.

dohman
03-08-2011, 11:07 AM
Great players are great because they think they are better and have ice in their viens. Not because they defer when they know they can score.

If lance has the potential to be great he needs to learn the speed of the game now. We are gambling on a second round pick because he can be the next gilbert or manu. He has the skills and body to be something special.

BillS
03-08-2011, 11:11 AM
Damn, I forgot this forum was only for reprinting what was reported by journalist and not open for fan interpretation. My bad. I'll just wipe my butt and get out of here....

There's interpretation and there's wild speculation that has no basis in anything actually reported. Don't think they are the same.

It's the jumping to wild conclusions that is the crazy part.

xIndyFan
03-08-2011, 11:23 AM
You know, Lance is a very talented player and I'm never going to take that away from him. I just feel like he needs to grow up. He's very immature still. I've mentioned that to a number of people about his maturity problems and a lot of people say, well he's only 20 years old, but my response to that is, you may be 20 years old but at the same time there's a difference between acting 19 or 20 and acting 15 or 16 and I feel like Lance is more in that 15 to 16 range and again, where the leadership lacks, he thinks he can get away with that.

http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/3/7/2036786/wells-stephensons-immaturity-overshadows-talent


this was the part that bothered me. no offense met to any 15 yr olds, but there is a huge difference between acting like you're 15 and acting like you're 20. nothing wrong with acting like you're 15 when you're 15. it is a big difference if you act like you're 15 when you're 20.

if lance is really feels entitled enough to blow off the rest of the team, then it is too early to start him. or play him. jmo, but attitude is important in a team game. expecially with young team. if this team was a veteran team, they could keep lance under control with no repercussions. but on a young team like this, it could be a real problem going forward.

time for lance to sit. :(

Ozwalt72
03-08-2011, 11:54 AM
If Wells dishes dirt on the guy you hate, he's just scratching the surface and is revealing things you knew all along. If he dishes dirt on a guy you like, he's overblowing the situation or misinterpreting it because it is clearly everyone else's fault.



To be fair, the issue I have with what Wells has said is how Lance and Dahntay relate to the topic of the players meeting. I think he's pulling it out of his ***. There are plenty other reasons to be pissed off in that locker room.

DaveP63
03-08-2011, 12:14 PM
Now let's not pretend that the second unit hasn't been playing like this since Vogel took over. Its always been AJ brings the ball up and shoots it himself, passes it to DJ who holds and shoots it himself, or AJ passes it to Tyler who holds it and shoots it himself. Only time its different is when George gets the ball because he's willing to share.

This would be the same "goon squad" that has pulled the starters out of the fire on numerous occasions recently, pulled even, extended leads and generally outplayed the oppostion, right? So instead of being the black pit of dispair that some would make it out to be, maybe it's been working OK for a while.

The bigger problem is the fact that they don't play defense like they were, they don't block out and most of them aren't hustling after loose balls, they don't move offensively, there is no sense of urgency. Those are the real problems. If Lance is being an A-hole he will either get his attitude adjusted or he will be gone.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 12:57 PM
That's a fair point. You give the ball to Dahntay or Hans and they will shoot it, regardless. And quite frankly, AJ enables them both. (Although, can't say I blame him, if not getting the ball to DJones every time down the court means you get chewed out..)

But I doubt Lance's style would change with the starters. That's how he plays.
It's just that style. Maybe he'll change a bit as he develops. And it's not even close to our biggest concern with him. But it's the truth.

You guys are on me about AJ. Well, if he's shooting crappy I'll say he's shooting crappy. If he's turning the ball over, I'll say he's turning the ball over.

You guys won't even admit that Lance is more ball dominant than anyone else on our team not named Dahntay Jones? Come on. That's just a fact. Whether the vets are right in being annoyed with him or not, doesn't change that it's a fact.

Go back and watch him play. Yes, he makes a nice pass. And yes, he gets an assist off of it. But no one else makes a decision with the ball, unless Lance didn't get to touch it that possession. (Although, to be fair, that was a bit different in this last game, until garbage time. Notice how poorly he played though.) The guy is talented, but he's got his offensive flaws. And it's okay to admit it.

That's not even saying that Dahntay should be yelling at Lance. Lance has only played 4 games. He deserves to be able to play comfortably and the Vets should allow him to adjust. (and that's not to mention..of all people to be yelling at that specific issue..) But perhaps the combo of the immaturity and the ball dominance is the problem.

edit: Really nice to hear though, that PG is a "perfect rookie"

I am not sure but I think people feel that by saying Lance is ball dominant, is a dis, or negative statement

I don't think your putting Lance down when you say this. I agree he is ball dominant. His entire playing career up to this point, he has been , by far, the best player on the team. He is used to having the ball in his hands on virtually every offensive play. He will either break his man off the dribble and get to the rim, or pass.

People please dont confuse the phrase "ball dominant" with selfish.

Lance is not a selfish player by any means, but he does dominate the ball, and thats why, ironically, DJ gets mad because he wants to do the same thing

Kemo
03-08-2011, 01:05 PM
except Lance WILL actually pass the ball lol , and quite well I might add .. He can read and assess the situation as well ..fairly good .. his passes are usually quick, crisp and direct , like a zipline hitting the receiver in just the right place which is usually the shooting pocket..

If DJ gets the ball YOU AIN'T GETTING IT BACK... lmao

KevinB
03-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Great players are great because they think they are better and have ice in their viens. Not because they defer when they know they can score.

If lance has the potential to be great he needs to learn the speed of the game now. We are gambling on a second round pick because he can be the next gilbert or manu. He has the skills and body to be something special.

There is a lot of truth to this. Just watch Michael Jordan's Hall Of Fame speech and see how much of an a--hole he was. Not to say that Lance is even close to MJ, but we all know the Pacers are missing a killer, partly because they are a bunch of "nice" guys.

Speed
03-08-2011, 01:06 PM
I'm just glad they give a crap this year, thats a good thing.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 01:07 PM
It seems like a vast majority of people are way too focused on the on-court stuff with regards to this issue.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:07 PM
If Lance walks around with a sense of entitlement , dont blame Lance , blame all the people that allowed this type of behavior to be tolerated.

Lance has been on a national level for quite some time, he is from Brooklyn and we tend to carry a little swag with us :)

That being said, I am sure that someone like LeBron, D Wade etc. is much more of an arrogant ******* then Lance could ever be

Cherokee
03-08-2011, 01:07 PM
In the past five games:
Player ...................... Shots Taken ............ Assists
A.J. ................................32................ .........3
D.C. ...............................41................. .......14
Dahntey ..........................30...................... ....2
Lance .............................25................... ......21

Sparhawk
03-08-2011, 01:08 PM
I'm sure the players meeting should help some. But they still have to execute out there. When you are losing, more things bubble to the surface, and I think that's what most of this is about. Maybe it's a good thing to happen now and get all the negative stuff out and let it be addressed.

Not sure how Lance is seen as ball dominant. It seems to me he passes the ball most of the time when he crosses the half court line. When he gets the ball back, yes, he can dominate, but he seems to have more assists than shots taken if you ask me.

I'm also willing to bet that there hasn't been a 24 second shot clock violation when Lance has been out there. Not getting a shot off is embarrassing. Lance has looked real good at finding the open man cause of his ability to penetrate the lane effectively. He's also seem to help the offense to run more smoothly. I don't want his know-it-all superiority attitude to start clouding his judgment and that may be why D Jones was bringing this up now.

Speed
03-08-2011, 01:10 PM
It seems like a vast majority of people are way too focused on the on-court stuff with regards to this issue.

Thats what we see. What's going on otherwise? Is he late to practice, games, not going hard? Can you share? Or maybe its already out there, I just didn't hear about it.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:10 PM
Also if Lance was really a duchebag and not getting along with the team, I highly doubt Vogel would be increasing his minutes, like he has been

Speed
03-08-2011, 01:12 PM
In the past five games:
Player ...................... Shots Taken ............ Assists
A.J. ................................32................ .........3
D.C. ...............................41................. .......14
Dahntey ..........................30...................... ....2
Lance .............................25................... ......21

Wow! Even with garbage time factored in, thats impressive.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Thats what we see. What's going on otherwise? Is he late to practice, games, not going hard? Can you share? Or maybe its already out there, I just didn't hear about it.

It's about his general attitude and demeanor. It is more about him as a person, than it is about him as a basketball player.

He has an abrasive personality, it shouldn't be a surprise that friction was created when that personality was introduced into the team.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:13 PM
In the past five games:
Player ...................... Shots Taken ............ Assists
A.J. ................................32................ .........3
D.C. ...............................41................. .......14
Dahntey ..........................30...................... ....2
Lance .............................25................... ......21

If you could bro, could you post the numbers for Ty and Josh, im really curious

Thanks

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:14 PM
It's about his general attitude and demeanor. It is more about him as a person, than it is about him as a basketball player.

He has an abrasive personality, it shouldn't be a surprise that friction was created when that personality was introduced into the team.

These guys are pros they should be able to get along for the sake of the team. DJ should just ignore him.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 01:16 PM
If you could bro, could you post the numbers for Ty and Josh, im really curious

Thanks

Last 5 Games:

Josh: 30 shots taken, 11 assists

Tyler: 68 shots taken, 1 assist

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:17 PM
Last 5 Games:

Josh: 30 shots taken, 11 assists

Tyler: 68 shots taken, 1 assist

1 assit damm i thought it would be 0 lol

BPump33
03-08-2011, 01:17 PM
It's about his general attitude and demeanor. It is more about him as a person, than it is about him as a basketball player.

He has an abrasive personality, it shouldn't be a surprise that friction was created when that personality was introduced into the team.

So, how do we fix that and is Lance's talent worth trying to fix it? Any ideas on who we could bring in to bring him down a notch or two? I would think Larry would be able to talk to him, but maybe not. I know Foster has the respect of most of us, but I could see Lance not buying into that. He probably doesn't respect Dahntay. You would think Posey's rings could help a little, but maybe not. A lot of our guys are too nice and even "soft" to put him in his place.

Peck
03-08-2011, 01:18 PM
Am I remembering this wrong but wasn't D. Jones appointed as Lance's mentor/babysitter earlier in the season?

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 01:18 PM
If you could bro, could you post the numbers for Ty and Josh, im really curious

Thanks

Josh has had below average assist numbers of the past 5 games but over that decidedly miniscule time period:

Josh Shots: 30
Josh Assists: 11

Tyler Shots: 68
Tyler Assists: 1

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 01:19 PM
These guys are pros they should be able to get along for the sake of the team. DJ should just ignore him.

You're not wrong.

But shouldn't Lance also try to make himself a part of the team that has been playing all year?

Speed
03-08-2011, 01:21 PM
Last 5 Games:

Josh: 30 shots taken, 11 assists

Tyler: 68 shots taken, 1 assist


I wish they had someone that had a line that looked more like this.

20 shots, 50 rebounds, 10 blocks, 150 minutes of good az defense

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 01:22 PM
So, how do we fix that and is Lance's talent worth trying to fix it? Any ideas on who we could bring in to bring him down a notch or two? I would think Larry would be able to talk to him, but maybe not. I know Foster has the respect of most of us, but I could see Lance not buying into that. He probably doesn't respect Dahntay. You would think Posey's rings could help a little, but maybe not. A lot of our guys are too nice and even "soft" to put him in his place.

The only hope is that age can mature him because he doesn't seem to listen to anyone at this time.

Is it worth waiting for that? As long as we don't bring in another headcase, probably.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:23 PM
You're not wrong.

But shouldn't Lance also try to make himself a part of the team that has been playing all year?

how do we know he hasn't ?I would guess he hasnt also. I just think ethier Roy or Danny should really take him under thier wing. His talent is so good I just hope they find a way to help him get better off the court and help him with defense on the court. He has so much offensive skill it would be a shame if he blows it.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:25 PM
The only hope is that age can mature him because he doesn't seem to listen to anyone at this time.

Is it worth waiting for that? As long as we don't bring in another headcase, probably.

Zach Randolph was the same lets hope Lance matures like Zach but hopefully faster than Zach did.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:29 PM
Last 5 Games:

Josh: 30 shots taken, 11 assists

Tyler: 68 shots taken, 1 assist

So "aledgedely" players are upset with Lance, who has 25 shot attempts to 21 assists

yet Ty has taken 68 shots, with only 1 assist, and he gets a pass?

This is starting to sound more and more like sour grapes

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 01:30 PM
how do we know he hasn't ?I would guess he hasnt also. I just think ethier Roy or Danny should really take him under thier wing. His talent is so good I just hope they find a way to help him get better off the court and help him with defense on the court. He has so much offensive skill it would be a shame if he blows it.

The limitations Lance has above the neck are greater than limitations Travis Diener had below the neck.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:30 PM
So, how do we fix that and is Lance's talent worth trying to fix it? Any ideas on who we could bring in to bring him down a notch or two? I would think Larry would be able to talk to him, but maybe not. I know Foster has the respect of most of us, but I could see Lance not buying into that. He probably doesn't respect Dahntay. You would think Posey's rings could help a little, but maybe not. A lot of our guys are too nice and even "soft" to put him in his place.

Honestly, his father, probably one of the few people Lance would really listen to him

Pacer4ever, I am demanding you speak to Lance's pops next game

Its squarely on you bro

:)

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 01:33 PM
So "aledgedely" players are upset with Lance, who has 25 shot attempts to 21 assists

yet Ty has taken 68 shots, with only 1 assist, and he gets a pass?

This is starting to sound more and more like sour grapes

One is a PF who, while he takes way too many shots, has at least earned respect within the lockerroom.

The other is a rookie PG who came in and acted like he knew all there was to know.

Allegedly.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:33 PM
Honestly, his father, probably one of the few people Lance would really listen to him

Pacer4ever, I am demanding you speak to Lance's pops next game

Its squarely on you bro

:)

Honestly I've spoke to his dad a few times. The guy is more like a best friend and should not be his mentor. He needs a father figure who will discpline him not talk about how good he is and such. Thats part of the problem where he came from andhow he was rasied. Hopefully they can take te Coney Island out of him.(Just not the basketball part:D)

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:35 PM
The limitations Lance has above the neck are greater than limitations Travis Diener had below the neck.

lol true but a least with Lance it is fixable. Poor Travis he would still be in the NBA if he had Lances physical gifts.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 01:37 PM
Zach Randolph was the same lets hope Lance matures like Zach but hopefully faster than Zach did.

Contract year = Good behavior , no thanks for Zach.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:37 PM
One is a PF who, while he takes way too many shots, has at least earned respect within the lockerroom.

The other is a rookie PG who came in and acted like he knew all there was to know.

Allegedly.

not trying to be argumentative bro, but how do you know for a fact that "Ty has earned respect in the locker room?"

Not saying that is not the case , but I dont know it to be factual, unless you know something else I dont, or have read

BPump33
03-08-2011, 01:37 PM
The limitations Lance has above the neck are greater than limitations Travis Diener had below the neck.

Hey now, leave poor Travis out of this. :D

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:38 PM
Contract year = Good behavior , no thanks for Zach.

I guess he was in a contract year the last 5+ years?? Zach has changed Im just using him as an example of what maturing can do. Rasheed Wallace also matured a lot in his later years.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 01:40 PM
Honestly I've spoke to his dad a few times. The guy is more like a best friend and should not be his mentor. He needs a father figure who will discpline him not talk about how good he is and such. Thats part of the problem where he came from andhow he was rasied. Hopefully they can take te Coney Island out of him.(Just not the basketball part:D)

Great point, and I have thought the same thing , which is really sad. Lance doesnt need his Dad to be his best friend, but to be his Father, first and foremost

I also think Lance's dad is vicariously living the dream through his son

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 01:40 PM
I guess he was in a contract year the last 5+ years??

He was in trouble not long ago, I don't know were you are getting your five years from?

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:41 PM
Great point, and I have thought the same thing , which is really sad. Lance doesnt need his Dad to be his best friend, but to be his Father, first and foremost

I also think Lance's dad is vicariously living the dream through his son

that is true also

BPump33
03-08-2011, 01:42 PM
Maybe we can get Danny's dad to put the fear into Lance.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:42 PM
He was in trouble not long ago, I don't know were you are getting your five years from?

no he wasnt he was allgedly and the guy was lying get your facts and come back and see me. All Zach was doing was letting a childhoo friend borrow his car. the only crime he commited was being too nice to old friends.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:44 PM
Maybe we can get Danny's dad to put the fear into Lance.

He puts fear into me everytime I talk to him :D

That guy is the type of metor Lance needs ASAP

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 01:44 PM
By the way does anybody remember Mike Dunleavy not liking some of his teammates in GS because they played "street ball" or some like that? Could he be one of the guys not liking Lance? I know it was a big issue there, many fans felt like he was trowing his teammates and Baron under the buss.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 01:45 PM
I am not sure but I think people feel that by saying Lance is ball dominant, is a dis, or negative statement

I don't think your putting Lance down when you say this. I agree he is ball dominant. His entire playing career up to this point, he has been , by far, the best player on the team. He is used to having the ball in his hands on virtually every offensive play. He will either break his man off the dribble and get to the rim, or pass.

People please dont confuse the phrase "ball dominant" with selfish.

Lance is not a selfish player by any means, but he does dominate the ball, and thats why, ironically, DJ gets mad because he wants to do the same thing

Thank you..thank you...

Being ball dominant doesn't mean you don't get assists. (In fact just the opposite) It just means you can irritate your teammates. (Particularly if you have a know it all attitude to go along with it.)

Selfish is what Dahntay Jones does.

edit: Mackey, they are annoyed with DC too? Is it attitude or lack of defense?

NuffSaid
03-08-2011, 01:46 PM
Look, I agree that inserting Lance into the rotation certainly has disrupted team chemistry, but I don't think you can put the blame for the team's poor performance of late squarely on his shoulders. That would be very unfair. IMO, the only players who have performed with any consistency have been Hansborough, Jmac and Paul George. Hibbert, Granger and Collison have all been up and down of late. Same could be said of AJ Price, but that's only taking into account how his perimeter game has gone cold of late. Otherwise, I'd still take him as our starting PG over Collison mainly because he makes smart plays.

Clearly, Dunleavy going down has disrupted our offense. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this just haven't been paying close enough attention to this team. It's not that Dunleavy is a big-time scorer, but rather he moves without the ball so well others have to move with him. His defense has also been very good lately. I think Vogel did the right thing in giving BRush a chance to regain his starting role in Dunleavy's absence, but it's very obvious to me that he hasn't met the challenge. I'd start Paul George in his place and split backup SG mins between Lance and BRush w/Lance being the 3rd option. I'd only put Lance at the Point if both Collison and AJ are injured or in deep foul trouble. Not saying he's a bad PG, but clearly his unfamiliarity with the players (or even the plays) has caused some problems w/team chemistry. Reinserting Collison and Price as our primary and backup PGs and letting Lance play at SG should bring things back into some concreate order.

Other than that, there's really no excuse for this team to have performed so bad on this WC road trip. It's not Lance's fault things dropped off although having him out there did throw things off track somewhat. But again, that has more to do with him being so unfamiliar with his teammates out there or nerves from finally getting playing time than him making big mistakes. To that, he's not alone. Everyone on the team who saw playing time has errored, some more often and far worse than Lance not passing the ball to any particular player. How 'bout all the turnovers Collison and Dahntey made, or the missed shots at the rim by Hibbert and Granger, or the missed 3PAs by...well, just about everyone who attempted one?

There's plenty of blame to go around. I'm just glad they swallowed their pride and aired their grievences. Tonight, we'll see who paid attention and took their heart-to-heart talk seriously.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 01:48 PM
no he wasnt he was allgedly and the guy was lying get your facts and come back and see me. All Zach was doing was letting a childhoo friend borrow his car. the only crime he commited was being too nice to old friends.

He was dumb enough to let a drug dealer drive his car, I don't care how you make it sound, that was a huge mistake and in a place like Indiana something like that could set the Pacers back years.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:50 PM
Look, I agree that inserting Lance into the rotation certainly has disrupted team chemistry, but I don't think you can put the blame for the team's poor performance of late squarely on his shoulders. That would be very unfair. IMO, the only players who have performed with any consistency have been Hansborough, Jmac and Paul George. Hibbert, Granger and Collison have all been up and down of late. Same could be said of AJ Price, but that's only taking into account how his perimeter game has gone cold of late. Otherwise, I'd still take him as our starting PG over Collison mainly because he makes smart plays.

Clearly, Dunleavy going down has disrupted our offense. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this just haven't been paying close enough attention to this team. It's not that Dunleavy is a big-time scorer, but rather he moves without the ball so well others have to move with him. His defense has also been very good lately. I think Vogel did the right thing in giving BRush a chance to regain his starting role in Dunleavy's absence, but it's very obvious to me that he hasn't met the challenge. I'd start Paul George in his place and split backup SG mins between Lance and BRush w/Lance being the 3rd option. I'd only put Lance at the Point if both Collison and AJ are injured or in deep foul trouble. Not saying he's a bad PG, but clearly his unfamiliarity with the players (or even the plays) has caused some problems w/team chemistry. Reinserting Collison and Price as our primary and backup PGs and letting Lance play at SG should bring things back into some concreate order.

Other than that, there's really no excuse for this team to have performed so bad on this WC road trip. It's not Lance's fault things dropped off although having him out there did throw things off track somewhat. But again, that has more to do with him being so unfamiliar with his teammates out there or nerves from finally getting playing time than him making big mistakes. To that, he's not alone. Everyone on the team who saw playing time has errored, some more often and far worse than Lance not passing the ball to any particular player. How 'bout all the turnovers Collison and Dahntey made, or the missed shots at the rim by Hibbert and Granger, or the missed 3PAs by...well, just about everyone who attempted one?

There's plenty of blame to go around. I'm just glad they swallowed their pride and aired their grievences. Tonight, we'll see who paid attention and took their heart-to-heart talk seriously.

Ya we miss Mike Dunleavy because he plays like Larry Bird ;) being serious now we miss him somewhat. But he is not coming back next year I am happy we can devlope the youngins now.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 01:52 PM
edit: Mackey, they are annoyed with DC too? Is it attitude or lack of defense?

DC and Lance aren't even close to comparable, and I should have been more clear.

With DC it's 100% relative to on-court stuff.

The lack of court vision and defense from a point guard has to be infuriating.

Lord Helmet
03-08-2011, 02:03 PM
I'm glad they had a meeting, let's hope it translates to some wins.

As others have stated, this issue isn't just Dahntay vs Lance. The players are upset with Lance, as he has apparently been acting like a damn child. Listen, I don't care how good this kid is, if this isn't solved by the end of the season, get rid of him.

After the Artest-era, I'm through with great talent, but immature/crazy. JO/Tins/Jackson/Artest were great, but as we were contenders with that squad for a while, it ended up blowing up in our faces. Actually blowing up in our faces is a subtle way to describe how that ended....

I don't want to even have that chance again. If Lance can't grow up soon, cut his ***.

(With all that said, I like the way he plays, I really do, but I'm not going to let the talent blind me from the potential ticking time bomb.)

Since86
03-08-2011, 02:18 PM
I think the biggest thing I can take out of this, is that some of you have never played a day of competitive sports.

I'm not talking Y league, or intramurals, I'm talking varsity on your high school team at a minimum.

This whole "they should just get over it because they're professionals" line doesn't work in the real world. It's a nice little thought, but it doesn't happen that way.

Personality clashes is the whole idea about "team chemistry." It takes two to have a problem.

NuffSaid
03-08-2011, 02:20 PM
Ya we miss Mike Dunleavy because he plays like Larry Bird ;) being serious now we miss him somewhat. But he is not coming back next year I am happy we can devlope the youngins now.
I think developing the young talent is important, but doing so while in the midst of a playoff push probably isn't the best time to do that. As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Although the Pacers weren't playing great, they were doing fairly well to a point since the coaching change and before Dunleavy got hurt and Lance and BRush both started getting minutes. Frankly, I'd say BRush's performance has been worse than Lance's, but regardless something needs to be done to turn things around and fast. Either the players hold themselves accountable - which by initial accounts it would appear they have - or the coach needs to make some changes. Again, we'll see who took the talks seriously tonight.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 02:21 PM
I think the biggest thing I can take out of this, is that some of you have never played a day of competitive sports.

I'm not talking Y league, or intramurals, I'm talking varsity on your high school team at a minimum.

This whole "they should just get over it because they're professionals" line doesn't work in the real world. It's a nice little thought, but it doesn't happen that way.

Personality clashes is the whole idea about "team chemistry." It takes two to have a problem.

I've played at a high level and quite frankly I didnt like 3/4 ths of the team. But I worked with them so the team would be a sucess.


Just like at your job these guys are "pro athletes" this is there job they should treat it that way.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 02:23 PM
I think developing the young talent is important, but doing so while in the midst of a playoff push probably isn't the best time to do that. As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Although the Pacers weren't playing great, they were doing fairly well to a point since the coaching change and before Dunleavy got hurt and Lance and BRush both started getting minutes. Frankly, I'd say BRush's performance has been worse than Lance's, but regardless something needs to be done to turn things around and fast. Either the players hold themselves accountable - which by initial accounts it would appear they have - or the coach needs to make some changes. Again, we'll see who took the talks seriously tonight.

Dude we were gonna make the playoffs and be by far the worst team and get swept there is no point. I like that we get to see these guys grow and play instead of the vets.

Hicks
03-08-2011, 02:23 PM
If Lance walks around with a sense of entitlement , dont blame Lance , blame all the people that allowed this type of behavior to be tolerated.

It probably is other people's fault that he is the way he is (to a degree), but we can't solve the problem today by scolding his parents/adult influences of his past. He has to be willing to change now. If he doesn't, I expect a bad ending to his career.

Hicks
03-08-2011, 02:26 PM
The only hope is that age can mature him because he doesn't seem to listen to anyone at this time.

Is it worth waiting for that? As long as we don't bring in another headcase, probably.

My biggest hope is that Clark Kellogg can get through to him.

Since86
03-08-2011, 02:28 PM
I've played at a high level and quite frankly I didnt like 3/4 ths of the team. But I worked with them so the team would be a sucess.


Just like at your job these guys are "pro athletes" this is there job they should treat it that way.

And yet you're at every game through the week, and talk about how you have a job, during the height of high school basketball season.

You're Y league team, doesn't count as "high level."

I'm not trying to scold you, I'm saying juggling each other's egos is a hard process and it's something as simple as you're trying to make it.

They might be professionals, but they're humans first, and they've all been pampered their entire lives secondly. You think players who smoke dope during the season have enough sense to look at their teammate and just swallow things that are bothering them?

I'm not picking on BRush, I don't know if he even has a problem with it all.

My point is that just because they are "professionals" doesn't mean they act that way.

On paper, it's a good theory. But like so many other theories, it loses it's luster when it's actually practiced in real life.

BPump33
03-08-2011, 02:28 PM
My biggest hope is that Clark Kellogg can get through to him.

Wow, I completely forgot about Clark.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 02:30 PM
And yet you're at every game through the week, and talk about how you have a job, during the height of high school basketball season.

You're Y league team, doesn't count as "high level."

I'm not trying to scold you, I'm saying juggling each other's egos is a hard process and it's something as simple as you're trying to make it.

I quit playing after I ****ed up my knee 2 yrs ago. I played high level AAU with players who have big egos. I worked with them to help the team. BTW ive never played Y ball lol

Hicks
03-08-2011, 02:32 PM
And yet you're at every game through the week, and talk about how you have a job, during the height of high school basketball season.

You're Y league team, doesn't count as "high level."

I'm not trying to scold you, I'm saying juggling each other's egos is a hard process and it's something as simple as you're trying to make it.

I think the claim that no one who didn't play in 'high level' competition would understand is BS.

I never did, but I've had experiences in other ways that taught me the same lesson you learned. Chemistry matters, and it's not simply a matter of ignoring the problem. You and I both know it, but only you played in 'high level' competition.

Since86
03-08-2011, 02:44 PM
I think the claim that no one who didn't play in 'high level' competition would understand is BS.

I never did, but I've had experiences in other ways that taught me the same lesson you learned. Chemistry matters, and it's not simply a matter of ignoring the problem. You and I both know it, but only you played in 'high level' competition.

I think you're severly underestimating the level at which their ego's tick.

My "high level" comment wasn't a put down. I know I wouldn't be able to handle all the bullcrap that goes on.


We're talking about guys getting along that have been "the man" their entire lives. Whether it was Jr. High, high school, AAU, college, whatever.

They have been the alpha dog, who took the shot they wanted, played defense as lackluster as they wanted too, etc.

They have had their "friends" telling them how great they are, how much better they are than their teammates, how bad their teammates suck etc.

It's not like walking into your workplace, and trying to do a project with a co-worker you don't like.

Out of the 15 in the lockerroom, there are probably 14 alpha male personalities, if not 15. They're not going to just get along, because someone tells them to start acting like a professional.

They have lived their entire lives as being the boss, and now you put them into a situation where they need to be Indians, and not Chiefs.

It's a hard process. It's an even harder process when you introduce someone in the middle of a playoff push who doesn't want to listen.

These guys are where they are because of their attitude. It's also what brings them down. I don't think it's a long shot to say that most of us, if not all of us, don't work with the level of ego that all 15 of them have.

Ego problems kill college teams every single day, and most will never even make it to Europe, let alone the NBA. We're talking about the supreme of the supreme, and they're going to have MASSIVE ego's to go along with it.

Ego's too big to just turn down when the professional card is thrown in their face.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 02:49 PM
I think the claim that no one who didn't play in 'high level' competition would understand is BS.

I never did, but I've had experiences in other ways that taught me the same lesson you learned. Chemistry matters, and it's not simply a matter of ignoring the problem. You and I both know it, but only you played in 'high level' competition.

I have to agree with Since86, I think it makes a big difference.

While a lot of comparisons can be made, a sports team and a business team just are not the same. I simply do not believe you have the same kind of relationships with your coworkers, nor do you rely on them the same way you do in athletics. I was lucky enough to play at a moderately high level, and now I'm in the business world, and they just are not the same.

Also, P4E while maybe you played competitive AAU ball, that also isn't comparable to this situation. With AAU ball you are not with your teammates literally every single day. You might have met up with your teammates a couple times during the week and on weekends, but you don't build up the same kind of cohesiveness and chemistry that you do on a real team. That's a huge problem with the whole AAU system, players do not learn how to be good teammates. They might learn how to be better individual players, but until the NBA goes to a league of one-on-one, being able to play well with others is going to help.

Hicks
03-08-2011, 02:57 PM
I didn't say anything about business, though I think this can happen in many places.

I think you are grossly misinformed if you think huge egos and/or highly competitive people are limited to athletes.

I agree with both of you that you will absolutely find severe examples in high level sports, btw.

NuffSaid
03-08-2011, 02:58 PM
Dude we were gonna make the playoffs and be by far the worst team and get swept there is no point. I like that we get to see these guys grow and play instead of the vets.
I would much rather see the team get to the post-season and get man-handled in the first round than for them not to get there at all.

Since86
03-08-2011, 03:00 PM
I didn't say anything about business, though I think this can happen in many places.

I think you are grossly misinformed if you think huge egos and/or highly competitive people are limited to athletes.

Who said it's limited to athletes?

I don't think anyone here works with the very best in their field though, that's why I'm not making the comparison to everyday life.

We're talking about some very narcissistic people.

Shaq and Kobe couldn't even get a long, that was while winning 3 straight championships. Think how bad it would have been if they were actually losing.

Hicks
03-08-2011, 03:04 PM
You did when you pulled the "you wouldn't understand" card. Actually, yes, I understand just fine.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 03:04 PM
I didn't say anything about business, though I think this can happen in many places.

I think you are grossly misinformed if you think huge egos and/or highly competitive people are limited to athletes.

I agree with both of you that you will absolutely find severe examples in high level sports, btw.

My bad, got confused trying to reply to you and P4E in one fell swoop.

PacersPride
03-08-2011, 03:17 PM
This is about LB once again risking it all on talent and praying on a good outcome with the "problematic side" of things, Shawne was not the only one, Artest hung around longer, we drafted other problems, heck gave him q guaranteed contract and send him packing before the season started.


They don't just go away, they need dealing with and seeing his history so far i don;t think LB is the one who can do or wants to do that.

LB is risking it all on Lance,, dude is a 2nd round pick who we can cut ties with immediately. this isnt like the jackhole, murph, dun trades that Walsh orchestrated, or the williams draft choice by walsh.

LB can cut Lance and send him packing. your always busting Birds balls but your reasons for doing so are completely rediculous.

how are we "risking it all" with Lance??

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 03:21 PM
LB is risking it all on Lance,, dude is a 2nd round pick who we can cut ties with immediately. this isnt like the jackhole, murph, dun trades that Walsh orchestrated, or the williams draft choice by walsh.

LB can cut Lance and send him packing. your always busting Birds balls but your reasons for doing so are completely rediculous.

how are we "risking it all" with Lance??

we did give him a guarteed contract of 1.6 m

BillS
03-08-2011, 03:25 PM
So "aledgedely" players are upset with Lance, who has 25 shot attempts to 21 assists

yet Ty has taken 68 shots, with only 1 assist, and he gets a pass?

This is starting to sound more and more like sour grapes

You're kidding me, right? I mean, Lance is playing the bulk of his minutes at PG, where he is supposed to spend at least some time distributing the ball.

Tyler is playing PF, where (since he isn't playing outside the perimeter) he is supposed to receive the ball at the end of the play most of the time.

The only time his role is to pass to someone for the score would be on a defensive rebound leading to a full-court pass for a layup, and if there are too many dribbles even THAT wouldn't count.

Yeah, you mighrt want to see more assists from Tyler, but comparing the two positions is like asking why a baseball catcher doesn't have as many dunks as a basketball center.

Since86
03-08-2011, 03:26 PM
You did when you pulled the "you wouldn't understand" card. Actually, yes, I understand just fine.

So you work with the absolute best in your respective fields?

I don't know how else to say it. I didn't mean it as a slam, because I view myself in the same category.

I'm saying there is a huge difference in ego when we're talking about someone operating in the middle, and operating on the top.

Juggling ego's while stuck in the middle is hard enough, I can only imagine how hard it is to do with the ego's of the people who are the very best at their respective fields.

Dealing with Tom Cruise is going to be harder than dealing with some actor who is the 6th lead, or an extra.

The better one becomes at their trade, the harder it is to tell them they're wrong. Especially when they've been told they're the best their entire lives.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 03:32 PM
You're kidding me, right? I mean, Lance is playing the bulk of his minutes at PG, where he is supposed to spend at least some time distributing the ball.

Tyler is playing PF, where (since he isn't playing outside the perimeter) he is supposed to receive the ball at the end of the play most of the time.

The only time his role is to pass to someone for the score would be on a defensive rebound leading to a full-court pass for a layup, and if there are too many dribbles even THAT wouldn't count.

Yeah, you mighrt want to see more assists from Tyler, but comparing the two positions is like asking why a baseball catcher doesn't have as many dunks as a basketball center.

No I wasnt kidding Bill,

Regardless of the position , which to me is irrelevant (look at Josh's assists), 60 plus shots to 1 assist for Ty shows he rarely, if ever, passes the ball. Yet we allegedly have yet to hear a complain about that

Lance has 25 shots with 21 assists , but supposedly players are mad with him?

Ty gets way too much of a pass here in my opinion

Since86
03-08-2011, 03:35 PM
Tyler isn't asked to make plays, other than scoring.

He recieves a pass in a scoring position, if he thinks he can score, he's going too. If not, he's going to pass the ball out so the offense can find another scorer, in another scoring position.

You need to take what the player's role on the team is, into consideration, rather than just comparing them all in one lump.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 03:39 PM
Tyler isn't asked to make plays, other than scoring.

He recieves a pass in a scoring position, if he thinks he can score, he's going too. If not, he's going to pass the ball out so the offense can find another scorer, in another scoring position.

You need to take what the player's role on the team is, into consideration, rather than just comparing them all in one lump.

So using your , how does Josh get so many assists? Is his role not similar to Ty's

Again I am not saying Ty should have 15 assits but to have over 60 shots and only one assist is pathetic. Heck, Roy is our starting center and averages 5 assits a game

BillS
03-08-2011, 03:42 PM
No I wasnt kidding Bill,

Regardless of the position , which to me is irrelevant (look at Josh's assists), 60 plus shots to 1 assist for Ty shows he rarely, if ever, passes the ball. Yet we allegedly have yet to hear a complain about that

Lance has 25 shots with 21 assists , but supposedly players are mad with him?

Ty gets way too much of a pass here in my opinion


Tyler isn't asked to make plays, other than scoring.

He recieves a pass in a scoring position, if he thinks he can score, he's going too. If not, he's going to pass the ball out so the offense can find another scorer, in another scoring position.

You need to take what the player's role on the team is, into consideration, rather than just comparing them all in one lump.

What Since86 said.

And who are you saying isn't complaining? The words "black hole" are constantly used around PD to refer to Tyler.

If you mean from the other players, maybe it is because they understand his role is not to get someone else the ball. You can't possibly say the same about the role of the PG.

Don't forget that the complaint isn't just about Lance not giving up the ball enough, it is about some of the passes he makes. That could mean how he gets the ball to a shooter, and it could also mean he either holds the ball or only passes to someone he thinks should be in scoring position instead of finding the man who is in a position to get it to another man.

As gets said over and over, you can't use stats in a vacuum, you have to look at how the stats match the role and how those stats are being gotten. Heaven knows that argument has raged on PD over the stats of Troy Murphy perhaps being a slightly inaccurate picture of his actual impact on the court :lol:

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 03:44 PM
What Since86 said.

And who are you saying isn't complaining? The words "black hole" are constantly used around PD to refer to Tyler.

If you mean from the other players, maybe it is because they understand his role is not to get someone else the ball. You can't possibly say the same about the role of the PG.

Don't forget that the complaint isn't just about Lance not giving up the ball enough, it is about some of the passes he makes. That could mean how he gets the ball to a shooter, and it could also mean he either holds the ball or only passes to someone he thinks should be in scoring position instead of finding the man who is in a position to get it to another man.

As gets said over and over, you can't use stats in a vacuum, you have to look at how the stats match the role and how those stats are being gotten. Heaven knows that argument has raged on PD over the stats of Troy Murphy perhaps being a slightly inaccurate picture of his actual impact on the court :lol:

I was referring to the players

Simple question: Do you have a problem with a PF that shots at roughly 41%, having only 1 assist to 60 plus shot attempts?

I do

Since86
03-08-2011, 03:44 PM
So using your , how does Josh get so many assists? Is his role not similar to Ty's

Again I am not saying Ty should have 15 assits but to have over 60 shots and only one assist is pathetic. Heck, Roy is our starting center and averages 5 assits a game

No, his role is not similiar to Tyler's. The only similiarity in their game, is that they play the same position. Their skill sets are completely opposite.

able
03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
LB is risking it all on Lance,, dude is a 2nd round pick who we can cut ties with immediately. this isnt like the jackhole, murph, dun trades that Walsh orchestrated, or the williams draft choice by walsh.

LB can cut Lance and send him packing. your always busting Birds balls but your reasons for doing so are completely rediculous.

how are we "risking it all" with Lance??

Team bustups, chemistry problems, blow-ups, we've been there before, because of talented players, that were stark-raving mad.

2 year guaranteed contract before playing 1 minute and then runnung into trouble, nothing new tehre either

If you risk blowing up team chemistry, team-cohesivenes and the general "happiness" of your other players, including the stars, stars to be etc then you are risking it all.

As said in the podcast, when Lance was not playing he was nice and it humbled him enough to keep the attitude in check but since he is playing it went south.

Since the coach does not bench him (which is what most coaches would do) either the coach is to nice (which is the choice I go with at this moment in time) or he has orders to play him no matter what.

"Risking it all" is what he did when he allowed Artest another year, to a lesser extent when he took Shawn as a rookie, knowing the risk, same with James White, which we paid 2 years for playing a short while with the Spurs and then nothingness i believe.(not followed his trails)

Lance is another risk, not send away after trouble hit, nearing the end of that juicy videos showed up, they were ignored, now team-chemistry seems to take a (mild?) hit.

I's say that it risks the playofs run, and since that was his ultimate goal, he is risking it all.

BillS
03-08-2011, 03:59 PM
I was referring to the players

Simple question: Do you have a problem with a PF that shots at roughly 41%, having only 1 assist to 60 plus shot attempts?

I do

I think that is too few assists, but I wouldn't expect even 10 at the absolute most. Like Since86 said, Tyler's not going to be feeding the guy who makes the shot, he's not the inside/outside post player target. He'll feed the guy who feeds the guy.

Josh plays a different game and is more likely to be involved in passing to a cutter or player in position to shoot. Just the fact that Tyler is probably 3rd (some would say 2nd) scoring option for the Goons and Josh is the opportunity scorer for the starters is almost enough to work that out.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
No, his role is not similiar to Tyler's. The only similiarity in their game, is that they play the same position. Their skill sets are completely opposite.

again, how does that excuse Ty taking 60 plus shot with 1 assist?

I dont care what role they have, or position they play

When you have a PF that barely shots above 40% from the field, and has 60 plus shot attempts to 1 assist, I have a problem with that

Am I alone?

If so its cool, thats my opinion

Speed
03-08-2011, 04:05 PM
Assists from my PF are towards the very bottom of the list of things I care about from him.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
Assists from my PF are towards the very bottom of the list of things I care about from him.

Ya but being able to see and pass to the open man is up on my list. Tyler has tunnel vision.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 04:09 PM
Assists from my PF are towards the very bottom of the list of things I care about from him.

I understand

but again are you not concerned with a player shooting around 40% from the field, who gets his shot blocked often and has 1 assist to 60 plus shot attempts?

Psyren
03-08-2011, 04:10 PM
As said before, I don't know who this is "between" if anybody.

I'm sure everybody's frustrated.

But to be completely honest, there's not one f***ing person in that locker room who's entitled to b***h about anybody else. With the exception of Tyler and Jeff (at least in my opinion) the effort has been trash.

I sure as hell (if this is the case) don't see where Dahntay gets to b***h. The offense is non existent when he has the ball. Sure, he may score, but he is not entitled to b***h at anyone else.

And for Lance. He needs to put his tail between his legs. He is not a leader right now, he's the youngest player on this team, and he's not entitled to think he knows more than anybody else either.

Frankly, I wish someone would go in there and b***h every single one of them out.

BillS
03-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Ya but being able to see and pass to the open man is up on my list. Tyler has tunnel vision.

Who is open once Tyler has the ball? At this stage he ain't getting doubled until he's on his way to the basket and the passing lane is likely closed by the guy doubling. Tyler's job isn't to look for the open man, his job is to BE the open man.

Yes, 1 seems low, but how many are you expecting? I hope not the kind of assist-to-points ratio you are seeing from the PG numbers.

Since86
03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
I understand

but again are you not concerned with a player shooting around 40% from the field, who gets his shot blocked often and has 1 assist to 60 plus shot attempts?

Because no one expects Tyler to get assists.

Do I think he should pass the ball more? Most certainly, but he's not going to get more assists as a result. Well, maybe a small bump, but nothing statistically significant.

You're going about the argument wrong. Assists have nothing to do with the conversation about Tyler.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 04:14 PM
Who is open once Tyler has the ball? At this stage he ain't getting doubled until he's on his way to the basket and the passing lane is likely closed by the guy doubling. Tyler's job isn't to look for the open man, his job is to BE the open man.

Yes, 1 seems low, but how many are you expecting? I hope not the kind of assist-to-points ratio you are seeing from the PG numbers.

watch the weak side wing it is always open when tyler has the ball at the high post

Since86
03-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Who is open once Tyler has the ball? At this stage he ain't getting doubled until he's on his way to the basket and the passing lane is likely closed by the guy doubling. Tyler's job isn't to look for the open man, his job is to BE the open man.

Yes, 1 seems low, but how many are you expecting? I hope not the kind of assist-to-points ratio you are seeing from the PG numbers.

He's asked to score the ball, not pass the ball. I don't know why that's hard to understand.

He should be a little more judicious with his shots, but he's a play finisher, not a play maker.

BillS
03-08-2011, 04:18 PM
watch the weak side wing it is always open when tyler has the ball at the high post

So what you're saying is that a good mid-range shooter and aggressive basket driver like Tyler is faulted because he doesn't pass out to a guy for a long 2 or a 3 point shot?

All righty then.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 04:19 PM
Because no one expects Tyler to get assists.

Do I think he should pass the ball more? Most certainly, but he's not going to get more assists as a result. Well, maybe a small bump, but nothing statistically significant.

You're going about the argument wrong. Assists have nothing to do with the conversation about Tyler.

I digress

My point of mentioning Tyler was that if the players are allegedly *****ing about Lance dominating the ball when he has 25 shots and 21 assists, is utter hypocrisy when nothing has been said about Ty shooting over 60 times and having only 1 assist

I dont expect him to put up PG assist like numbers, but he rarely if ever passes the ball

Ty is not a good enough shooter percentage wise to shot the ball every time he touches it, which is exactly what is happening by evidence of only 1 assist

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 04:22 PM
He's asked to score the ball, not pass the ball. I don't know why that's hard to understand.

He should be a little more judicious with his shots, but he's a play finisher, not a play maker.

That doesnt even make sense

Every player in the NBA should pass the ball, whether scorer or not

I agree with your point that TY is more a scorer than Josh, but Ty needs to pass sometimes, bottom line

BPump33
03-08-2011, 04:22 PM
I digress

My point of mentioning Tyler was that if the players are allegedly *****ing about Lance dominating the ball when he has 25 shots and 21 assists, is utter hypocrisy when nothing has been said about Ty shooting over 60 times and having only 1 assist

I dont expect him to put up PG assist like numbers, but he rarely if ever passes the ball

Ty is not a good enough shooter percentage wise to shot the ball every time he touches it, which is exactly what is happening by evidence of only 1 assist

I was under the impression that they were b*tching about his off-court entitlement more than anything else.

pacergod2
03-08-2011, 04:22 PM
He's asked to score the ball, not pass the ball. I don't know why that's hard to understand.

He should be a little more judicious with his shots, but he's a play finisher, not a play maker.

I think YOU need to be a little more "judicious" with your personal attacks. "I don't know why that's hard to understand" is pretty arrogant on your part and rather hypocritical, because your opinion is often times rather skewed. You could be a hell of a lot less arrogant in your opinion of your own intelligence. I like a lot of the things you say, but man, you get awful personal attacking others' opinions. Please understand that your opinions are not black and white, right over wrong.

And I agree with what you said above. We need scoring in the second unit, so if he is open, make them pay. I like that he shoots as much as he does. I think we need to swap Rush and George right now. I think we need Tyler's offense with Foster on the second unit and I would contest that I like the extra defense from Rush. I think Rush would also be more inclined to look to score on the second unit. I think Hibbert has to start and that McRoberts should be the one starting opposite him. Add PG to the starters and your first team is more offensively inclined.

Edit: I somewhat contradicted myself about needing offense on the second team. We definitely do, but when adding Lance/AJ to the second unit, you get a bump in offensive output. Our first team is struggling to score right now, so I think the defensive minded McRoberts and Rush being split up might be a good thing. I prefer defense, but when we come out as flat as we have and show an inability to score, I would like to bring in a player like George who can get to the rim, which is something none of our other starters seemingly do on a consistent basis.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 04:26 PM
People keep forgetting that guys like Cwebb and BradM got paid a lot of money because of all the things they could do and because they were good at passing the ball, not every power forward has this talent, maybe 20% of power forwards can do this without turning the ball over.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 04:31 PM
So what you're saying is that a good mid-range shooter and aggressive basket driver like Tyler is faulted because he doesn't pass out to a guy for a long 2 or a 3 point shot?

All righty then.

When he is doubled team or has a damm near 3pt shot attemt yes he should. Instead he chucks up the bad shot.

cdash
03-08-2011, 04:31 PM
People keep forgetting that guys like Cwebb and BradM got paid a lot of money because of all the things they could do and because they were good at passing the ball, not every power forward has this talent, maybe 20% of power forwards can do this without turning the ball over.

True, but for those guys, passing was a secondary skill. Their offensive games were vastly superior to Josh's.

Since86
03-08-2011, 04:36 PM
I think YOU need to be a little more "judicious" with your personal attacks. "I don't know why that's hard to understand" is pretty arrogant on your part and rather hypocritical, because your opinion is often times rather skewed. You could be a hell of a lot less arrogant in your opinion of your own intelligence. I like a lot of the things you say, but man, you get awful personal attacking others' opinions. Please understand that your opinions are not black and white, right over wrong.

The idea of players having different roles isn't my opinion, it's a fact. Josh and Tyler have different roles.

90's is either purposely ignoring that fact, or just merely overlooking it. Either way, comparing their assist totals without the context of their role on the team is a pretty big mistake.

I think me and 90's can handle our own relationship, and how we communicate with each other.

If he thinks I'm talking down to him, then I apologize, but that is between me and him.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 04:39 PM
True, but for those guys, passing was a secondary skill. Their offensive games were vastly superior to Josh's.

No doubt, I'm just saying that passing for a power forward is not a normal thing, just look at every single post made by the "Josh fans", all they talk about is how amazing his passing is and how he sees people and all that, if it wasn't a hard thing to do there wouldn't be much emphasis in his passing abilities.

BillS
03-08-2011, 04:40 PM
When he is doubled team or has a damm near 3pt shot attemt yes he should. Instead he chucks up the bad shot.

Or draws a foul. He's about the only guy who can do that.

But assume the fouls aren't being called and the shot isn't falling. Passing out to the open wing is not going to get him a dozen assists. He should pass more, yes, but it seldom if ever is going to be to the guy in position to make the immediate shot, it's going to be to a guy who will get things set back up outside.

Back to the original topic, the reason players are upset at Lance is because he is SUPPOSED to pass and is EXPECTED to pass. Tyler isn't EXPECTED to do so.

It is probably also a bit of Lance thinking he is hot stuff in spite of those flaws that his teammates see, and Tyler not having that problem in some way.

Or, they could have also complained about Tyler but no one in the media thought it would stir the pot to mention it, so they didn't.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 04:44 PM
I was under the impression that they were b*tching about his off-court entitlement more than anything else.

I heard it was both, maybe?

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 04:46 PM
I heard it was both, maybe?

When they are already unhappy with a player for how he is off the court, when he is ****ty on the court, like Lance was in the Houston game, it makes it more likely that the feelings will come to a head.

BPump33
03-08-2011, 04:46 PM
I heard it was both, maybe?

Who knows. None of us really know anything. :D

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 04:49 PM
The idea of players having different roles isn't my opinion, it's a fact. Josh and Tyler have different roles.

90's is either purposely ignoring that fact, or just merely overlooking it. Either way, comparing their assist totals without the context of their role on the team is a pretty big mistake.

I think me and 90's can handle our own relationship, and how we communicate with each other.

If he thinks I'm talking down to him, then I apologize, but that is between me and him.

were cool, u got a sharp tongue but it doesnt bother me ( I do at times)

Im not ignoring that Josh and Ty have "roles" but what you seem to be ignoring is facts

Ty shoots roughly 41% from the field
He shot 60, plus times and had 1 assist
If you run the numbers, that would mean Ty hit 24 shots out of 60.

So either his shot percentage must go up, or he must learn to pass up contested shots, and his assist numbers should increase

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 04:50 PM
Or draws a foul. He's about the only guy who can do that.

But assume the fouls aren't being called and the shot isn't falling. Passing out to the open wing is not going to get him a dozen assists. He should pass more, yes, but it seldom if ever is going to be to the guy in position to make the immediate shot, it's going to be to a guy who will get things set back up outside.

Back to the original topic, the reason players are upset at Lance is because he is SUPPOSED to pass and is EXPECTED to pass. Tyler isn't EXPECTED to do so.

It is probably also a bit of Lance thinking he is hot stuff in spite of those flaws that his teammates see, and Tyler not having that problem in some way.

Or, they could have also complained about Tyler but no one in the media thought it would stir the pot to mention it, so they didn't.

I dont care about assits I use my eyes to tell me if he is playing smart not stats. I just wish he would see the open man more and be a little seletive.


About te foul thing thats why we need a Zach R type big it would really help a big brusier.

ilive4sports
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
No one is saying Tyler needs to add the passing ability of Josh, to his game, but he certainly needs to learn when to shoot and when to pass. No doubt about it. You are lying if you think a 60 shot to 1 assist ratio is ok since he is a power forward. That's not ok, especially when he isn't shooting great. He settles for way too many jump shots. It's not even that he doesn't get assists, its that he doesn't pass. Sure Tyler is there to finish the play as some of you have said. But there are a lot of times where passing the ball is a much better option than taking a jumper.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
were cool, u got a sharp tongue but it doesnt bother me ( I do at times)

Im not ignoring that Josh and Ty have "roles" but what you seem to be ignoring is facts

Ty shoots roughly 41% from the field
He shot 60, plus times and had 1 assist
If you run the numbers, that would mean Ty hit 24 shots out of 60.

So either his shot percentage must go up, or he must learn to pass up contested shots, and his assist numbers should increase


But when Tyler passes the ball (which, is rare) he's not trying to create a play. He's giving it back to the PG to find another shot. He's not a play maker, everyone knows that.

Whether he should shoot a little less is another question. But I think, at least 10 of those shots, are probably attempted tip ins from his own shot being blocked, so his percentage isn't that bad.

I also think people overrate assists in the same way that points and rebounds can be overrated.

Speed
03-08-2011, 04:56 PM
I put alot of stock in Tyler's physical play, that is one component I like in a PF.

I still want a PF that can lock down on interior defense and get 8-10 boards every night. Thats not either guy.

Neither are the answer right now or really even close for what I think you need in a starting PF.

So continues the decade long quest to find Dale Davis, I guess.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 04:58 PM
I put alot of stock in Tyler's physical play, that is one component I like in a PF.

I still want a PF that can lock down on interior defense and get 8-10 boards every night. Thats not either guy.

Neither are the answer right now or really even close for what I think you need in a starting PF.

So continues the decade long quest to find Dale Davis, I guess.

I didnt relize how small Tyler was untill I saw him standing next to Ibaka.

Unclebuck
03-08-2011, 05:00 PM
I put alot of stock in Tyler's physical play, that is one component I like in a PF.

I still want a PF that can lock down on interior defense and get 8-10 boards every night. Thats not either guy.

Neither are the answer right now or really even close for what I think you need in a starting PF.

So continues the decade long quest to find Dale Davis, I guess.


I hope Peck doesn't see this, but Speed, your comments got me to thinking. What player from the 90's has been harder to replace or find a player similar. Smits, Reggie, or Dale? I could argue it has been Dale.

But then again how many Dale's are there in the entire NBA? Not as many as there used to be. (You think the Heat aren't looking for a Dale Davis type player?)

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 05:01 PM
I didnt relize how small Tyler was untill I saw him standing next to Ibaka.

You haven't seen him standing next to McRoberts, Hibbert, Foster, Solomon Jones, or even Dunleavy?

ilive4sports
03-08-2011, 05:01 PM
But when Tyler passes the ball (which, is rare) he's not trying to create a play. He's giving it back to the PG to find another shot. He's not a play maker, everyone knows that.

Whether he should shoot a little less is another question. But I think, at least 10 of those shots, are probably attempted tip ins from his own shot being blocked, so his percentage isn't that bad.

I also think people overrate assists in the same way that points and rebounds can be overrated.

I don't even care about assists being low, but he needs to pass. I rarely see him give it back to the PG to find another shot. Its really that bad with Tyler right now and not passing. I love his play, his energy and everything. But he needs to learn because players will figure him out. Guys just need to play him straight up and he will have more problems because he wont be fouled as much. Right now it seems players are confused with his play style and its great for us. But sooner than later he will be figured out. Which is why he needs to pass.

Since86
03-08-2011, 05:02 PM
One thing that needs to be cleared up is that Tyler's shot to assist ratio is NOT 60:1.

He's taken 377 shots this year, with 24 assists. That is about a 15:1 shot to assist ratio. That's a HUGE difference.

We can talk about a few games sample, but the 15:1 ratio is over the entire year, which is the more accurate results.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 05:03 PM
You haven't seen him standing next to McRoberts, Hibbert, Foster, Solomon Jones, or even Dunleavy?

Foser and Hibbert are centers


Mcbob isnt much biger Im just talking about shoulder size Ibaka looked like 2 of Tyler

BillS
03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
Foser and Hibbert are centers

How tall is he standing next to Postey? :lol:

MagicRat
03-08-2011, 05:08 PM
Tyler and Dahntay both have fewer assists this season than Solo Jones. Just sayin'....

Cherokee
03-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Tyler and Dahntay both have fewer assists this season than Solo Jones. Just sayin'....
That's a frightening thought!

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 05:11 PM
One thing that needs to be cleared up is that Tyler's shot to assist ratio is NOT 60:1.

He's taken 377 shots this year, with 24 assists. That is about a 15:1 shot to assist ratio. That's a HUGE difference.

We can talk about a few games sample, but the 15:1 ratio is over the entire year, which is the more accurate results.

He simply asked for the last 5 games, because that's what the post about the point guards shots:assists ratio gave.

I didn't mean to imply that his ratio was actually 60:1.

Tyler's ratio for the season is 15.7 shots per assist.

Josh's ratio for the season is 2.5 shots per assist.

16 shots for every assist is still pretty remarkable. You really almost have to try to not get assists to maintain that kind of ratio for a full season.

Kemo
03-08-2011, 05:13 PM
So continues the decade long quest to find Dale Davis, I guess.


Ironically ,the funny .. yet sad thing is ..

We could have Double D walk onto our team himself ... and the majority of people on here would STILL be clamouring to the notion that we need to find a D.D. type player... LOL..

Since86
03-08-2011, 05:15 PM
He simply asked for the last 5 games, because that's what the post about the point guards shots:assists ratio gave.

I didn't mean to imply that his ratio was actually 60:1.

Tyler's ratio for the season is 15.7 shots per assist.

Josh's ratio for the season is 2.5 shots per assist.

16 shots for every assist is still pretty remarkable.

I know that it was just over a 5 game span, but posters are starting to run with it, like that's the overall trend for the season.

The past 5 games have been a FAR extreme of what reality really is. The discussion needs to revolve around what has really been happening, and not a small sample size that points to an extreme.

While 15.7 shots per assist is pretty high, it's still no where near the 60:1 level that keeps getting mentioned. That is a staggering number.

I'm not trying to defend his numbers, I too think he should pass more often, but we need to discuss the real numbers.

Speed
03-08-2011, 05:17 PM
The funny .. yet sad thing is ..

We could have double d walk onto our team himself ... and the majority of people on here would STILL be clamouring to the notion that we need to find a DD type player... LOL..

It actually happened for a few months, remember, DD walked in at about 40% of himself and played for the Pacers. I still loved it!!

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2011, 05:26 PM
While 15.7 shots per assist is pretty high, it's still no where near the 60:1 level that keeps getting mentioned. That is a staggering number.

I'm not trying to defend his numbers, I too think he should pass more often, but we need to discuss the real numbers.

Here's every player in order:

1. Lance Stephenson - 1.5 shots per assist
2. TJ Ford - 1.7 shots per assist
3. Darren Collison - 2.3 shots per assist
4. Josh McRoberts - 2.5 shots per assist
5. Jeff Foster - 3.2 shots per assist
6. AJ Price - 3.3 shots per assist
7. Solomon Jones - 3.9 shots per assist
8. Mike Dunleavy - 4.9 shots per assist
9. Roy Hibbert - 5.5 shots per assist
10. Danny Granger - 6.1 shots per assist
11. Paul George - 6.2 shots per assist
12. James Posey - 6.5 shots per assist
13. Dahntay Jones - 8.3 shots per assist
14. Brandon Rush - 8.4 shots per assist
15. Tyler Hansbrough - 15.7 shots per assist

He's nearly doubled everybody's favorite black hole, Dahntay Jones.

pacergod2
03-08-2011, 05:33 PM
I think me and 90's can handle our own relationship, and how we communicate with each other.

If he thinks I'm talking down to him, then I apologize, but that is between me and him.

Unfortunately, it is how you handle yourself with more than just 90s. I think 90s is a big boy with a pretty vast experience in his life and he can handle your hyperbolic and arrogant ways. It is my almighty opinion that you could use some tact when talking to everybody on here. It goes a long way in people respecting your opinion outright. Your id drives to be correct and smarter than everybody else and therefore diminishes peoples' opinion of your opinion. I think you say a lot of good things, but then you ruin it with your snide comments toward other posters. Just some constructive criticism that I doubt your ego will utilize. Carry on.

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 06:35 PM
I hope Peck doesn't see this, but Speed, your comments got me to thinking. What player from the 90's has been harder to replace or find a player similar. Smits, Reggie, or Dale? I could argue it has been Dale.

But then again how many Dale's are there in the entire NBA? Not as many as there used to be. (You think the Heat aren't looking for a Dale Davis type player?)

To some degree was JO, the next Davis?

90'sNBARocked
03-08-2011, 06:39 PM
its gettin, its gettin, its gettin , kinda hectic

:)

As soon as the Pacers start winning , we will all be singing kumbya again

HickeyS2000
03-08-2011, 06:45 PM
Here's every player in order:

1. Lance Stephenson - 1.5 shots per assist
2. TJ Ford - 1.7 shots per assist
3. Darren Collison - 2.3 shots per assist
4. Josh McRoberts - 2.5 shots per assist
5. Jeff Foster - 3.2 shots per assist
6. AJ Price - 3.3 shots per assist
7. Solomon Jones - 3.9 shots per assist
8. Mike Dunleavy - 4.9 shots per assist
9. Roy Hibbert - 5.5 shots per assist
10. Danny Granger - 6.1 shots per assist
11. Paul George - 6.2 shots per assist
12. James Posey - 6.5 shots per assist
13. Dahntay Jones - 8.3 shots per assist
14. Brandon Rush - 8.4 shots per assist
15. Tyler Hansbrough - 15.7 shots per assist

He's nearly doubled everybody's favorite black hole, Dahntay Jones.

Why does it matter that a PF has such a high ratio? Most of the time when Tyler passes, he was unable to get his shot, and he is passing back out to a guard so he can setup the offense. He isn't looking for cutters and spot-up shooters because that's not his job. If you are looking for Tyler to be a high assist-per-shot guy he will never meet your expectations. I agree he likes to shoot, but his shot selection is what needs improvement and that is something that will improve with time. If you are looking for a PF that likes to pass McBob is your guy. Personally, I prefer a PF that can rebound and get you 15-20 points, not be an all-star passer.

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 06:56 PM
Why does it matter that a PF has such a high ratio? Most of the time when Tyler passes, he was unable to get his shot, and he is passing back out to a guard so he can setup the offense. He isn't looking for cutters and spot-up shooters because that's not his job. If you are looking for Tyler to be a high assist-per-shot guy he will never meet your expectations. I agree he likes to shoot, but his shot selection is what needs improvement and that is something that will improve with time. If you are looking for a PF that likes to pass McBob is your guy. Personally, I prefer a PF that can rebound and get you 15-20 points, not be an all-star passer.

Nobody is asking for him to be a high assist-per-shot guy.

But I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation to want him to be at least a low assist-per-shot guy as opposed to a legendarily low assist-per-shot guy.

He has nearly doubled his second lowest teammate.

HickeyS2000
03-08-2011, 07:00 PM
Nobody is asking for him to be a high assist-per-shot guy.

But I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation to want him to be at least a low assist-per-shot guy as opposed to a legendarily low assist-per-shot guy.

He has nearly doubled his second lowest teammate.

I guess this just doesn't concern me as much as others. I would be much more interested to see what this number is against other PFs, not guards.

TheDunkingDutchman
03-08-2011, 07:03 PM
DJ talks too much for being as poor as he is. He acts like he is Kobe Stacy said he was getting on guys in the huddle. WTF would you listen to him lol?

Ya, I like DJ but I am sure he was the instigator in this. Lance has a lot to learn but we need somebody on this team with some confidence. You can see that confidence translating to the court already for Lance.

HickeyS2000
03-08-2011, 07:06 PM
I guess this just doesn't concern me as much as others. I would be much more interested to see what this number is against other PFs, not guards.

Didn't have much time but I looked and Amare last year posted a 15-1 ratio and he is has been in the league 8 years.