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View Full Version : Pacers are 2-5 since Dunleavy got injured



dgranger17
03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
:dance:

MillerTime
03-07-2011, 03:15 PM
:dance:

Our schedule got a lot tougher since Dunleavy got injured. We just had a Western Conference road trip

I Love P
03-07-2011, 03:19 PM
Has Rush started all those games? That's why we're 2-5. Get healthy soon Mike.

beast23
03-07-2011, 03:20 PM
:dance:Does this thread serve any meaningful purpose?

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 03:20 PM
:inbeforethelock:

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 03:21 PM
Does this thread serve any meaningful purpose?


yes, we miss Mike

I Love P
03-07-2011, 03:23 PM
:inbeforethelock:

Your favorite thing to do. ^

yoadknux
03-07-2011, 03:23 PM
We should resign him as soon as possible for max salary

Speed
03-07-2011, 03:27 PM
I guess with the talk of changing the starters thats in the same idea here.

I've seen it said that Paul should move in the starting line up, I disagree at the moment. I'd rather have him in the second unit and be more aggressive attacking offensively. The 2 guard in this offense spends alot of time standing and spreading the floor, PG would defer even more with that 1st unit.

If they make any switch, I'd swith Josh and Tyler so that you have an up and down fast breaking - second unit and Tyler gives the First unit a physical prescence that it is lacking.

It seems like a really perfect switch to me.

Taterhead
03-07-2011, 03:29 PM
Mike might have helped us win 1-2 of those games to be honest. We have struggled on offense at times and Mike might of helped us through some rough stretches. But that doesn't mean playing him over these youngsters is the right thing to do. We have all seen Mike and know what he's capable of, and we also know he's not going to cure our problems. We lost those games because of defense more than anything and Mike doesn't us help with that.

The only chance we have to take the next step is to play our young players and coach them through the rough patches.

Jared Sullinger
03-07-2011, 03:30 PM
We have an average point guard and arguably the worst starting SG and PF in the league. Calling Brandon Rush hot garbage would be a massive insult to hot garbage.

ilive4sports
03-07-2011, 04:39 PM
I don't see how Mike would have helped us win any of the games we lost. We played terrible defense in all of them and defense isn't exactly Mike's strength. Offense seems to be better with him, but that isn't the big problem here.

LA_Confidential
03-07-2011, 04:43 PM
So?

Sookie
03-07-2011, 04:44 PM
Mike was much more important to the offense than people want to admit.

But another huge factor was how badly the chemistry was shaken up. All while the schedule got tougher, more games are being played, and the team got younger because of Mike being taken out of the lineup.

They are trying to learn new things, offensively and defensively, with new players they aren't used to playing with, and they are doing it with one less vet to show them the way. Of course losing Mike hurt.

CableKC
03-07-2011, 05:52 PM
yes, we miss Mike
I'm not prepared to say that this losing is based entirely on "missing Mike" in the rotation. I admit that it's a small part of the reason ( since I do think that he...in some small fashion....contributes on the offensive end )....however, I think that the reason for the losses is attribute to other major factors:

1 ) Schedule got tough after 2/23 when we started playing far tougher Teams ( specifically Teams that are over .500 either on the road or at home )
2 ) The gradual introduction of BRush and Lance to the rotation.

With the gradual inclusion of BRush to the Starting Lineup and Lance to the Goon Squad....I think that it has really messed with the chemistry built with the 1st and 2nd units. Adding Lance into the lineup where he was playing some PG minutes also changes how the Goon Squad is run. Add in that we are now hitting a West Coast road trip and playing many more +.500 teams....I'm not surprised that we are where we are not.

I said it in one of the "honeymoon" threads....I don't think that it's an accident that Vogel started coaching during that stretch in the schedule.....for a good # of games....we were playing teams that we should be doing well against while competing against Teams that are on the "same level" as us. For now, we are just playing against Teams that are clearly better then us.

Brad8888
03-07-2011, 06:20 PM
We should resign him as soon as possible for the mid level exception, if there is such a thing going forward

Fixed.

Rogco
03-07-2011, 06:24 PM
We miss Mike for a couple of reasons. Not saying we would have won anymore games, but I don't think we would have lost so brutally. Mike's a good offensive presence, but more importantly, Rush is a downgrade. I don't think it's a coincidence that since the Detriot game Collison is only averaging 3 assists a game (and 2.3 turnovers. What filth.) or that our starting unit has been struggling on the offensive end. Mike can provide that scoring spark and is much more active than Rush.

I'm don't think this is evidence of Mike being a great player, more that Rush just isn't cutting it right now (and DC isn't either).

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 06:45 PM
Pacers without Dunleavy 2-5
Possible record with Dunleavy 1-6, why? Because if anybody here remember,we won the Detroit game because of Rush defense and Rush last second dunk, we miss Dunleavy as much as we miss Posey.

Dunleavy amazing team defense and amazing offense was not going to help againts really good teams, who he was going to guard in OKC, Phoenix, Dallas and the other teams? Like somebody else already said our issue is defense and no I don't think his "team defense" was going to help either.

cdash
03-07-2011, 07:04 PM
Pacers without Dunleavy 2-5
Possible record with Dunleavy 1-6, why? Because if anybody here remember,we won the Detroit game because of Rush defense and Rush last second dunk, we miss Dunleavy as much as we miss Posey.

Dunleavy amazing team defense and amazing offense was not going to help againts really good teams, who he was going to guard in OKC, Phoenix, Dallas and the other teams? Like somebody else already said our issue is defense and no I don't think his "team defense" was going to help either.

Keep fighting the good fight!

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 07:06 PM
yes, we miss Mike

you sound like this guy



http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j430/pacer4ever/jim-obrien1.jpg

fact of the matter he isnt coming back next year. It is a good thing we can evualte our young talent and let them devlope the right way.

DemonHunter1105
03-07-2011, 07:08 PM
We could have used Dunleavy but he would not have been our savior. The only thing he would have changed is not getting blown out as bad against Houston in my opinion.

Hicks
03-07-2011, 07:50 PM
Mike isn't worthless, but I don't buy for a second that our record would be much different (if at all) with him still playing. The details might have been different, but the results would likely be very similar.

BillS
03-07-2011, 07:53 PM
I don't know why I'm bothering, since the responses will likely be that I'm either a moron or JOB or both, but here goes.

Let's take OKC for an example. In the first 6+ minutes, the Thunder went 7-11, which is 64%. The Pacers went 1-10, which is 10%.

If Dun, through his movement, helps the Pacers get 3 measly baskets in that period, they start out at 40% instead of 10%. For that to be a negative compared to what actually happened Dun would have to suck so bad at defense that the Thunder go 100% over 6 minutes. 100%.

Do I think Dun would have been the difference between winning and losing? Not necessarily, but we needed motion, we needed to draw defenders away - which his motion does - and we were already stinking up the place on defense. If we aren't down 12 points halfway through the first quarter, maybe we have some energy to withstand what comes later.

CableKC
03-07-2011, 08:02 PM
I don't know why I'm bothering, since the responses will likely be that I'm either a moron or JOB or both, but here goes.

Let's take OKC for an example. In the first 6+ minutes, the Thunder went 7-11, which is 64%. The Pacers went 1-10, which is 10%.

If Dun, through his movement, helps the Pacers get 3 measly baskets in that period, they start out at 40% instead of 10%. For that to be a negative compared to what actually happened Dun would have to suck so bad at defense that the Thunder go 100% over 6 minutes. 100%.

Do I think Dun would have been the difference between winning and losing? Not necessarily, but we needed motion, we needed to draw defenders away - which his motion does - and we were already stinking up the place on defense. If we aren't down 12 points halfway through the first quarter, maybe we have some energy to withstand what comes later.
There's no way to prove the notion that Dunleavy could have scored 3 baskets in that same timeframe...nor really disprove that he could have come in and did nothing.....for all we know...Dunleavy could have been there and it wouldn't have made any difference.

Given that Dunleavy would have likely been defended by Thabo or Durant....I'm not so sure that he would have gotten off 6 to 9 points in 6 minutes.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 08:09 PM
I don't miss Mike because of how good he was, I miss him because of how bad Brandon is.

I think it's time to put the "Mike has no team defense" thing to rest too. He would did a good job of doubling down on bigs, drawing charges, and rebounding the ball defensively. Those things are missing now.

speakout4
03-07-2011, 08:31 PM
We have an average point guard and arguably the worst starting SG and PF in the league. Calling Brandon Rush hot garbage would be a massive insult to hot garbage.
Man, I thought cdash and I had the least regard for Brandon but you definitely have us beat.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 08:34 PM
We are 1 of only a few teams who dont have a guard aveing at least 15ppg. We need an upgrade

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 09:09 PM
I have to agree with some of you, Mike is a huge loss in many ways. He doesn't stand around watching the ballhandler, waiting for them to do something, he's doing something himself. He creates offense thru motion and allows others better opportunites. I know his Defense isn't the best but he's averaging 11 ppg, 5 rpg, 2 apg. and you never know when he'll find that stroke and rip off 20 pts. I have also noticed this year less double team on Danny when Mike is playing. Don't forget what he creates when running thru the paint. Creates opportunities. This also applies to DC, how the heck can he get assists or do much of anything with no motion, But DC is another thread. :)

D-BONE
03-07-2011, 09:28 PM
He couldn't hurt, but I don't think record-wise there'd be much of a difference. He's perhaps the best SG on this roster, but the problem is he's not really a SG. And our roster isn't that hot. And the competition's been good. Yawn.

Naptown_Seth
03-07-2011, 09:53 PM
yes, we miss Mike
Yes, we miss sub-500 teams.


Oh nuance, subtlety and complete objective views, how we hate you.


You know who else misses Mike? Every non-playoff team he was ever on (all of them).


This thread has all the insight of Navin R. Johnson saying "He hates these cans!"

Naptown_Seth
03-07-2011, 10:24 PM
There's no way to prove the notion that Dunleavy could have scored 3 baskets in that same timeframe...nor really disprove that he could have come in and did nothing.....for all we know...Dunleavy could have been there and it wouldn't have made any difference.

Given that Dunleavy would have likely been defended by Thabo or Durant....I'm not so sure that he would have gotten off 6 to 9 points in 6 minutes.
All Bill has to do is show me some tape of:

A) Rush NOT moving during that period

B) Dun NEVER having 1st quarters of 0-3 or 0-4 or getting destroyed by very athletic teams with any kind of length to go with it.

But other than that the argument is totally sound.



Dun DOES move well without the ball. I've also seen him fall down during his own dribble several times and make many pretty ugly TOs. I've also seen him go 1-7 to start games (or worse). Sure he's had those Denver 3rd quarter nights, but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

I can buy some small amount of impact, but nowhere near the impact of playing good teams on 2nd nights of a road trip.

Plus the problem with the team right now is 80% on - Collison, Granger, Hibbert. They are the focal points of the offense and all 3 look pretty awful at the same time. That's going to be a problem no matter Dun, Rush or any other SG that's not a focal point more than them.

Those are the guys we are counting on, and for a reason I think. Right now they are in a nasty funk, and not just due to being overmatched (I mean Chuck Hayes and Budinger?)

cdash
03-07-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't think anyone is saying in this thread that Dunleavy would have made the difference in any of those losses. It is possible to think he could help us, but not enough to overcome the large loss margin we suffered on the road trip. I think Dunleavy being out is a minor problem relative to the rest of our issues right now, although I think even those are overblown to a certain extent. What I am relatively confident about is that Dunleavy would have made a bigger impact in those games than Brandon Rush did.

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 10:29 PM
Yes, we miss sub-500 teams.


Oh nuance, subtlety and complete objective views, how we hate you.


You know who else misses Mike? Every non-playoff team he was ever on (all of them).


This thread has all the insight of Navin R. Johnson saying "He hates these cans!"

I don't miss him, I hope they lose every game to get back in lottery. Better trading chip for the summer.:D

speakout4
03-07-2011, 10:52 PM
I don't think anyone is saying in this thread that Dunleavy would have made the difference in any of those losses. It is possible to think he could help us, but not enough to overcome the large loss margin we suffered on the road trip. I think Dunleavy being out is a minor problem relative to the rest of our issues right now, although I think even those are overblown to a certain extent. What I am relatively confident about is that Dunleavy would have made a bigger impact in those games than Brandon Rush did.
Amen. Just Dun being active running around like ole Reggie puts some juice in the offense. And please spare me that Reggie's running around was more purposeful than Dun's.

Trophy
03-07-2011, 10:53 PM
We are 1 of only a few teams who dont have a guard aveing at least 15ppg. We need an upgrade

"Bird, add the Mayo!"

PR07
03-08-2011, 12:20 AM
Losing Dunleavy has hurt some of our offensive flow, but I think our problems go a lot further than simply his absence.

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-08-2011, 12:21 AM
I miss backdoor cuts and good feeds to Roy in the post. Other than that? I don't miss Mike one iota.

The Rush hate on here is becoming really exaggerated and misguided. He doesn't have the flash of Paul George or the mentality of Dahntay, but he's a player every team needs because he's the ideal in-between, compliment player to a successful team with other more consistent scorers. Seth hit it. He looks bad now because Collison, Granger, and Roy are struggling and people are looking at him to step it up and compensate for their poor play. You can't ask him to do that because he's simply not that kind of player. He won't ever be that 20 point consistent scorer, but he will help you win games. It's too bad it will probably take him getting traded for people to realize his real value.

NapTonius Monk
03-08-2011, 02:14 AM
We are 1 of only a few teams who dont have a guard aveing at least 15ppg. We need an upgradeOr we need to structure our offense so that they are more involved. The answer isn't always to get rid of people.

CableKC
03-08-2011, 02:42 AM
I miss backdoor cuts and good feeds to Roy in the post. Other than that? I don't miss Mike one iota.

The Rush hate on here is becoming really exaggerated and misguided. He doesn't have the flash of Paul George or the mentality of Dahntay, but he's a player every team needs because he's the ideal in-between, compliment player to a successful team with other more consistent scorers. Seth hit it. He looks bad now because Collison, Granger, and Roy are struggling and people are looking at him to step it up and compensate for their poor play. You can't ask him to do that because he's simply not that kind of player. He won't ever be that 20 point consistent scorer, but he will help you win games. It's too bad it will probably take him getting traded for people to realize his real value.
I agree with you to a certain extent....cuz I love that BRush doesn't disappear on the defensive end and can impact the defense much like Dunleavy can impact the offense with his off-the-ball movement. The problem that I have is that BRush can completely disappear on the offensive end....or at the very least....I have come away from many games not even remembering what impact BRush had on the offensive end.

Unfortunately, when the Team isn't winning......we only remember that BRush didn't add too much on the offensive end...but forgetting that Players like DC, Granger and Hibbert were stuggling as well.

cdash
03-08-2011, 02:46 AM
Unfortunately, when the Team isn't winning......we only remember that BRush didn't add too much on the offensive end...but forgetting that Players like DC, Granger and Hibbert were stuggling as well.

Uhhh...what? There are all kinds of posts about those three guys specifically and about horrible they have been playing. I hardly think they are forgotten or blameless.

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-08-2011, 02:53 AM
I agree with you to a certain extent....cuz I love that BRush doesn't disappear on the defensive end and can impact the defense much like Dunleavy can impact the offense with his off-the-ball movement. The problem that I have is that BRush can completely disappear on the offensive end....or at the very least....I have come away from many games not even remembering what impact BRush had on the offensive end.

Unfortunately, when the Team isn't winning......we only remember that BRush didn't add too much on the offensive end...but forgetting that Players like DC, Granger and Hibbert were stuggling as well.

I think Brandon goes as the team goes. I don't think he has it in him to be a game-changer or a leader in the sense of inspiring the rest of the team to make a run. He's too laid back (some will say passive, but passive sounds too negative to me) to force the issue on offense when the team is struggling. He'll just go down with the ship, while doing his best to at least not let his man add more water to it.

I wish he would be more aggressive sometimes, but I honestly think it's just his personality. Some players aren't like that. It's similar to asking Tyler to turn it down a notch. Won't happen. I wish he could spend some time with Joe Johnson to ask him how he manages to stay so laid back, yet still have an impact on offense.

FireTheCoach
03-08-2011, 02:57 AM
Mikes the best shooter on the team... his contributions are missed.

spazzxb
03-08-2011, 06:29 AM
you sound like this guy



http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j430/pacer4ever/jim-obrien1.jpg

fact of the matter he isnt coming back next year. It is a good thing we can evualte our young talent and let them devlope the right way.

Got nothing valuable say? Just throw out old reliable.

bellisimo
03-08-2011, 06:50 AM
our defense stinks in the first quarter and we dig ourselves in a hole - with or without Mike.

HeliumFear
03-08-2011, 07:05 AM
COME BACK MIKE :( !!!!!

kellogg
03-08-2011, 10:36 AM
Does this thread serve any meaningful purpose?

No...the title might as well have been we're 2-5 since Solomon Jones was benched.

kellogg
03-08-2011, 10:39 AM
Mikes the best shooter on the team... his contributions are missed.

I was semi-interested in bringing him back next year until I went to the Heat game and watched D Wade dribble around him like he was standing still...

...he brings nothing else on the positive side to offset that negative.

it does no good for him to give us the rare 20 point night when he gives up 20 in a quarter on D.

BillS
03-08-2011, 11:21 AM
There's no way to prove the notion that Dunleavy could have scored 3 baskets in that same timeframe...nor really disprove that he could have come in and did nothing.....for all we know...Dunleavy could have been there and it wouldn't have made any difference.

Given that Dunleavy would have likely been defended by Thabo or Durant....I'm not so sure that he would have gotten off 6 to 9 points in 6 minutes.


If Dun, through his movement, helps the Pacers get 3 measly baskets in that period, they start out at 40% instead of 10%.

I didn't say Dun would score, I said he would help the Pacers score. If he doesn't take a shot but pulls a defender away to open up a passing lane for Roy or keeps a double from happening, he is making something happen.

How many times did the entire team go 1-10 while Dun was on the floor? I think saying Dun could have helped isn't ridiculous at all. I know the +/- is only useful for players people haven't already made up their minds about, but there is SOME reason why he was at a plus, it isn't all just luck and everyone covering for his sorry lame skillless a$$.

huber14
03-08-2011, 11:40 AM
we would have been 2-5 with or without him

sportfireman
03-08-2011, 12:19 PM
And we are 27-35 since Murphy got traded. We will have some rough stretches we are a young team. Dun (dont like him) is important to the team but I doubt he would have made enough of a difference to result in a win. We will get better. Be patient.

Volginator
03-08-2011, 12:31 PM
He can be used in certain situations great role player in my opinion. Obviously plays about the same amount of defense Murphy did, but when our team needs a bucket or two he could definitely provide that (or at least would provide that for the other team).

Really?
03-08-2011, 12:48 PM
I like Dunleavy in our offense.. his D maybe not but he knows how to get open on offense and helps open up things for others. Not sure how much that affects the previous losses but he does have some value on this team.

I remember the first game he was out the offense almost seemed lost without him cutting all across the floor trying to get open, just an observation.

dgranger17
03-08-2011, 01:23 PM
No...the title might as well have been we're 2-5 since Solomon Jones was benched.

In all games when Solomon is inactive, we're 12-13.

Since Vogel took over (Solomon only appeared in 1 game, a loss), we're 10-7 when Solomon is inactive. 10-8 if you count the Chicago, which is technically the 1st game he began his inactive streak.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 01:28 PM
I'd also add, overall the starting lineup's defense has been pretty pathetic without Dun (even if individually the SG position was upgraded.)

Which means our offense got worse and our defense stayed pathetic. It's not really a stretch to say that Dun's offense would help us here.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:29 PM
I'd also add, overall the starting lineup's defense has been pretty pathetic without Dun (even if individually the SG position was upgraded.)

Which means our offense got worse and our defense stayed pathetic. It's not really a stretch to say that Dun's offense would help us here.


mostly because Rush has been terrible and im one of Rush's biggest fans

OJ Mayo would have helped more. He moves without the ball well and is a great passer and scorer that what we need. Plus is a decent defender

I Love P
03-08-2011, 01:34 PM
Seems like a lot of discussions going around here for a thread that was thought to be locked.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 01:36 PM
Seems like a lot of discussions going around here for a thread that was thought to be locked.

yes sir

dal9
03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
Amen. Just Dun being active running around like ole Reggie puts some juice in the offense. And please spare me that Reggie's running around was more purposeful than Dun's.

here's the thing though, reggie would actually make shots, and be a real threat to make shots...i mean that is why we liked him, not really the running around...otherwise we could just put an eight year old on a sugar high at SG

BillS
03-08-2011, 04:05 PM
here's the thing though, reggie would actually make shots, and be a real threat to make shots...i mean that is why we liked him, not really the running around...otherwise we could just put an eight year old on a sugar high at SG

Considering defenses follow Dun around, either he's considered a threat to make those shots or they are all just stupid. I suppose many here on PD would choose the latter.

We have, after all, had examples of players who didn't draw a defender under other schemes. If Dun is as bad or worse than those guys, why was he still drawing defenders?

sportfireman
03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
mostly because Rush has been terrible and im one of Rush's biggest fans

OJ Mayo would have helped more. He moves without the ball well and is a great passer and scorer that what we need. Plus is a decent defender

You do realize we didn't get Mayo.... right?

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
You do realize we didn't get Mayo.... right?

No really?