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View Full Version : was the collison trade a mistake?



Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 12:57 PM
before everybody jumps on me, just answer how many more games we have won this year minus Troy Murphy?

DGPR
03-07-2011, 01:00 PM
I would have just released Troy Murphy from the team, so getting anything of value (like a promising young point guard) is just money in the bank.

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 01:02 PM
We are "winning" by just trading Murphy away from us, "the score board is bizzillion to cero"

MyFavMartin
03-07-2011, 01:12 PM
DC is only in his 2nd year, so no.

You prefer TJ Ford to start? Are you saying AJ could start? In my opinion, I don't see either doing well in that situation.

TinManJoshua
03-07-2011, 01:13 PM
hmmmm, nope.

Peck
03-07-2011, 01:16 PM
While right now I am not very happy with Collison when I think about the other option (keeping Murphy) I become much more happy with him.

If nothing else Darren is a great trading piece for the future and as has been stated he is still only in his second year so there is still hope.

Kemo
03-07-2011, 01:18 PM
http://cdn.springboard.gorillanation.com/storage/craveonline.com/upl_images/WinningSheen.jpg

BillS
03-07-2011, 01:31 PM
That'd be ... no.

Nein. Non. Iye. Nyet. No. Na.

Uh-uh, not on your life, hell no, nope, nah.

rm1369
03-07-2011, 01:31 PM
I don't think I would call it a mistake, but it isn't the big win some had hoped. The team would have more cap space next year if the trade didn't occur because of Posey's contract. I don't think they'll need the extra space anyway - the FA crop is limited. You could argue that he may have been worth more at the deadline, but we had plenty of other expirings to move and didn't.

I think we did fine value wise, but it's similar to the drafting of Tyler - he may be worth the asset, but he's not really better than what you have. PD has endless Josh and Tyler debates because neither is a quality starter. The same will show to be true for DC and AJ. We added a backup level PG and we already had one - we needed a starter. Yes, DC is only a 2nd year player, but his flaws, IMO, will always leave you looking to up grade - he's small, poor defensively, and isn't really a floor general. He's just slightly better than the typical SG in a PGs body.

The big failure was drafting Tyler instead of Jrue. That effects both positions.

Sookie
03-07-2011, 01:33 PM
How on earth, is trading Troy Murphy for a quality second year point guard (even if he has some major things he needs to work on) a bad move?

yoadknux
03-07-2011, 01:34 PM
Of course not. Look at Murphy now.
DC started pretty well with us, but since the January he's not really getting it done. The only downside on that trade was getting Posey, but we have more than enough cap space this summer anyway.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 01:35 PM
:troll:

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 01:40 PM
How on earth, is trading Troy Murphy for a quality second year point guard (even if he has some major things he needs to work on) a bad move?

if you classify Darren Collision as "quality" than you have pretty low standards.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 01:40 PM
i know some disagree with me on the fact i believe Rush is an inconsistent 3pt shooter, or that Scottie Pippen was overrated.. but the next time im crucified for my stance.. at least be thankful i dont post nonsense like this.

troy murphy is garbage.. even if DC turns out to be nothing better than a bench player, it still saved the Pacers about 7 million dollars over two seasons.

avoidingtheclowns
03-07-2011, 01:41 PM
What BillS said. This is what I posted back when the trade was announced:


I'm not as high on him either, I don't really know if he's much more than a really good backup. That being said, Murphy & Posey is a fair price for him, even as a really good backup. At the very least, he's another asset we could package down the road with Dunleavy or Posey again.


And yes both Morway and Bird deserve plenty of credit for this. As d_c mentioned we went from the cost of obtaining Collison being Okafor/Murphy's EC/Rush/#10 to Posey/Murphy's EC. Whether you think Collison is a fringe all-star like UB or if you think he'll max out at an excellent back-up (like I tend to lean) it's still fantastic value.

Can't say anything (one way or the other) has changed my mind.

LA_Confidential
03-07-2011, 01:41 PM
Huh?

Day-V
03-07-2011, 01:46 PM
:50cent:

Sparhawk
03-07-2011, 01:49 PM
We are "winning" by just trading Murphy away from us, "the score board is bizzillion to cero"

Did somebody say "Cero"?

http://images.wikia.com/bleach/es/images/c/cc/Cero_de_Ulquiorra.jpg

righteouscool
03-07-2011, 01:51 PM
if you classify Darren Collision as "quality" than you have pretty low standards.

People are so forgetful. Collison has been very solid up until this month. There was a point where he was the Pacer's most consistent player ahead of both Danny and Hibbert.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 01:51 PM
if you classify Darren Collision as "quality" than you have pretty low standards.

Jesus H.. wtf is wrong with some folks on here. DC is a quality pg, he may only turnout to be a backup point gaurd but he would be a very good one to have.

im just flippin sick of pacer fans bashing every pacer player they can.

Roy - he is "garbage" and making fans sick on here
DC - shoulda kept murphy
Granger - trade him for peanuts


im waiting for Hansbro, Stephenson, and McBob to be the next guys everyone bashes on.

this is a young f'ing team, were not gonna win 60 games, and its gonna take time for the team to get better.

we cant just trade every player b/c they are not a superstar. 60 games into a players first season with this team were ready to say it was a mistake trading for him.. we all know Obrien runs a sh*tty offense for pg's to learn from. collison avg'd 19 and 9 as a rookie next season.

Lets get an established veteran coach in here first then re-evaluate the young players.

Sparhawk
03-07-2011, 01:57 PM
if you classify Darren Collison as "quality" than you have pretty low standards.

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your definition of quality. Darren's not a great point, but he's the best we've had in a while. He's a second year player that is struggling right now, but he'll figure it out.

The team as a whole is struggling, you can point to any player and call out what they are doing wrong right now.

I just don't know how you would think trading an expiring loser like Troy Murphy for Darren Collison could be considered a mistake in any way?

Also, this team is without JOB, so that is a win already. We are playing the rooks and young guys more minutes, so we are going to take our lumps like any other young team. It's not like OKC won straight away with Durant, it took a couple years and another lottery pick.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 01:58 PM
hindsight is only 20/20, but as it stands it really looks like we traded for the worst starting PG in the eastern conference. I am not saying that Murphy is better than DC, but we could have gotten something better in return for an expiring contract.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 01:59 PM
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your definition of quality. Darren's not a great point, but he's the best we've had in a while. He's a second year player that is struggling right now, but he'll figure it out.

The team as a whole is struggling, you can point to any player and call out what they are doing wrong right now.

I just don't know how you would think trading an expiring loser like Troy Murphy for Darren Collison could be considered a mistake in any way?

Also, this team is without JOB, so that is a win already. We are playing the rooks and young guys more minutes, so we are going to take our lumps like any other young team. It's not like OKC won straight away with Durant, it took a couple years and another lottery pick.

the worst starting PG in the east does not equal quality.

righteouscool
03-07-2011, 02:00 PM
hindsight is only 20/20, but as it stands it really looks like we traded for the worst starting PG in the eastern conference. I am not saying that Murphy is better than DC, but we could have gotten something better in return for an expiring contract.

Yes, if you consider the last 8 games a better judgement then the entire year.

This board makes me glad I didn't have the ability to be an athlete. Some of the expectations. . .sheesh.

MTM
03-07-2011, 02:02 PM
troy murphy is garbage.. even if DC turns out to be nothing better than a bench player, it still saved the Pacers about 7 million dollars over two seasons.

The trade was an upgrade in talent AND added that talent to a position of need on the team. DC is a likeable guy and is younger than what we sent out. Good trade.

Just like the Granger draft pick - not a savior for a franchise type of trade, but a steady improvement in talent.

We need 3-4 more moves like that to be a very good team. Any time you can upgrade talent (while avoiding headcases), you make the move.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 02:03 PM
hindsight is only 20/20, but as it stands it really looks like we traded for the worst starting PG in the eastern conference. I am not saying that Murphy is better than DC, but we could have gotten something better in return for an expiring contract.

i would say jose calderon, that is if he still starts. much prefer DC over Caderons salary for the next 3 seasons.. now if we woulda traded murphy for calderon..

this thread might actually have some relevance to it. but DC is very low risk, and as i already mentioned, we saved 7Millon over two seasons.

what part of this might you be having a hard time understanding?

Sookie
03-07-2011, 02:04 PM
if you classify Darren Collision as "quality" than you have pretty low standards.

Yes, he's quality.

Currently, he's not running an offense well, making poor decision, not shooting well, and has poor court vision, and not defending well. Some think he has poor bball IQ (I don't agree though.)

However, He's talented and has natural athletic ability. And at the very least (VERY least) he can fix his poor shooting and poor decision making pretty easily by next season..

Guys can have flaws and still be quality. DC has more talent in his pinky than Troy's got..not a mistake.

Thoreau87
03-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Of course it was a good deal. We traded away a player (not a player a contract) for a young point guard with potential.

ThA HoyA
03-07-2011, 02:07 PM
hindsight is only 20/20, but as it stands it really looks like we traded for the worst starting PG in the eastern conference. I am not saying that Murphy is better than DC, but we could have gotten something better in return for an expiring contract.

Like.... Dan Gadzuric and forward Brandan Wright?

Speed
03-07-2011, 02:17 PM
What DC will be, isn't even close to being determined.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 02:18 PM
Collison is really what everyone outside of Indy thought he'd be. Guy was the 21st pick of round 1 as a college Sr. He was the 7th PG taken in that years draft. He's developed into a borderline starter/good backup NBA PG. That is really all you should be expecting from someone of his background.

Justin Tyme
03-07-2011, 02:27 PM
I have never been enthralled with Collison, BUT it wasn't a mistake trading for him, if for no other reason than getting rid of Murphy, so Hans and McBob could get playing time to see what the Pacers have in them. The Good LORD, for whatever reason, never chose to bless me with PATIENCE, so I get upset watching Collison making stupid mistakes time and time again while playing poor "D". I just have to keep reminding myself he's only a 2nd year player, and hopefully the light will come on next year. HOPEFULLY!! It took Nash and Billups a # of years to finally get it figured out, so I just hope I have the patience to wait to see if Collison can become what the Pacers need at PG.

Now, after saying that, I hope Bird doesn't turn down any trades for a PG upgrade while waiting.

bulldog
03-07-2011, 02:34 PM
Yea, you still make that trade 10 out of 10 times, Murphy had no future here.

But people need to at least admit that Collison's lack of production wasn't all Jim O'Brien's fault, which was a common theme for a while, and one of the top reasons people listed for firing him.

troyc11a
03-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Collison is really what everyone outside of Indy thought he'd be. Guy was the 21st pick of round 1 as a college Sr. He was the 7th PG taken in that years draft. He's developed into a borderline starter/good backup NBA PG. That is really all you should be expecting from someone of his background.

You forget one thing! When this board discusses players who are NOT on the roster, they blow them up into being an all-star. Anthony Randph anyone? Once they become Pacers, reality sets in.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 03:02 PM
I do not believe it was a mistake. but in order to know for sure is if we knew what else we could have traded Troy for. But the pacers don't miss Troy and at worst Darren is an excellent backup on a short and cheap contract.

Mackey_Rose
03-07-2011, 03:03 PM
Yes, he's quality.

Currently, he's not running an offense well, making poor decision, not shooting well, and has poor court vision, and not defending well. Some think he has poor bball IQ (I don't agree though.)

However, He's talented and has natural athletic ability. And at the very least (VERY least) he can fix his poor shooting and poor decision making pretty easily by next season..

Guys can have flaws and still be quality. DC has more talent in his pinky than Troy's got..not a mistake.

With the exception of his shooting being off (horribly off) at the moment, all the negatives that Collison does, are the same things he has been doing all season.

This isn't a situation where he was playing lights out and then hit a slump. He has been playing like this all year, except his shot was falling, and it made people forget about all the other stuff.

His defense is horrendous, and puts all of his teammates in a bad position because they have to constantly cover for him giving up dribble penetration.

He never ran an offense well with JOB, although there was hardly an offense to run. With Vogel, he has looked like a fish out of water now that he is actually expected to be somewhat of a play maker.

He has always made way too many bad decisions.

His court vision is not poor, it is non-existent.

To me, those last three are huge red marks on a point guard's ability to play the position, and equals a poor basketball IQ, but if you think that's too harsh, fine. Are any of those points even arguable?

You can (and several people have) attribute that to his being young and inexperienced, but I believe a lot of that is stuff you either have, or you don't. It can't be taught, and it is almost never learned. It is about instincts, and knowing the game. I don't think he has it.

All that said...of the course the trade wasn't a mistake. We got rid of Murphy, which is as severe of a form of addition by subtraction as I can think of in professional sports.

Doddage
03-07-2011, 03:05 PM
Even if he's not producing right now, there's no way a trade that nets us a PG who averaged 18 points and 9 assists last year as a starter (no matter the system) for Troy Murphy is a mistake. That's a slam dunk that you do ten times over.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 03:24 PM
The wannabe "Realist" is back at it again.

Slick Pinkham
03-07-2011, 03:25 PM
The sentiment seems nearly unanimous.

http://wackyiraqi.com/wtf/stupid_thread.jpg

BRushWithDeath
03-07-2011, 03:26 PM
I'm on record as not caring for Collison as a player since the day the trade was made. But even to me this trade is a total slam dunk just because of who we lost. Addition by subtraction doesn't do it justice.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 03:48 PM
I'm on record as not caring for Collison as a player since the day the trade was made. But even to me this trade is a total slam dunk just because of who we lost. Addition by subtraction doesn't do it justice.

how can you be certain that this is a clear case of addition by subtraction? is our record any better than what it was a year ago at this time? i am gonna do some research. just because you thought Troy was "bad", and DC is an "upgrade", unless the team gets more wins, then your claim is not validated.

90'sNBARocked
03-07-2011, 03:50 PM
I dont think its stupid in theory, just maybe should have titled the tread

"Could we have gotten a better player for Murphy than DC?"

That is a legitimate question, I think

cdash
03-07-2011, 03:54 PM
The sentiment seems nearly unanimous.

http://wackyiraqi.com/wtf/stupid_thread.jpg

The board seems to be full of such threads today. We need a win to get people off the ledge.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 03:58 PM
last season, the pacers won 32 games. This season, we are on pace to win about 36 games. with the rough stretch of games coming up, i am not sure if we will get to 36. i am gonna say we finish with 34 wins. so by trading murphy and adding DC, we gained about 2 more wins than last season. Trade doesn't look so one-sided now does it?

Mackey_Rose
03-07-2011, 04:01 PM
last season, the pacers won 32 games. This season, we are on pace to win about 36 games. with the rough stretch of games coming up, i am not sure if we will get to 36. i am gonna say we finish with 34 wins. so by trading murphy and adding DC, we gained about 2 more wins than last season. Trade doesn't look so one-sided now does it?

How many wins did Murphy add to New Jersey?

Day-V
03-07-2011, 04:01 PM
I'd love to see what he could do with a PF who knows how to run the Pick and Roll.

Day-V
03-07-2011, 04:02 PM
Trade doesn't look so one-sided now does it?

:50cent:

beast23
03-07-2011, 04:06 PM
With the exception of his shooting being off (horribly off) at the moment, all the negatives that Collison does, are the same things he has been doing all season.

This isn't a situation where he was playing lights out and then hit a slump. He has been playing like this all year, except his shot was falling, and it made people forget about all the other stuff.


His defense is horrendous, and puts all of his teammates in a bad position because they have to constantly cover for him giving up dribble penetration.


He never ran an offense well with JOB, although there was hardly an offense to run. With Vogel, he has looked like a fish out of water now that he is actually expected to be somewhat of a play maker.


He has always made way too many bad decisions.


His court vision is not poor, it is non-existent.

To me, those last three are huge red marks on a point guard's ability to play the position, and equals a poor basketball IQ, but if you think that's too harsh, fine. Are any of those points even arguable?

I certainly don't see how you argue with either of the first two points.

I believe the last two are arguable. I would not attempt to evaluate any PG's playmaking abilities with reason based on the first 60% of this season.

I do have to admit that Collison has not played well since Vogel took over. But I also consider his whole body of work. It's difficult for me to say that a PG that averages 19ppg and 9apg makes "way too many bad decisions" or that he has "non-existent court vision".

If you wanted to say that you believe Collison to be a "one trick pony" and that he is unable to play at a level even near his best without playing in a strong PnR / PnP system, I can't really argue for or against that stance.

I would say that due to last season's statistics and this year's performance, I would say that Collison plays much better as a ball dominant PG. With the present group of teammates, I don't believe we could call that a bad thing or a good thing... it simply is what it is.

What I conclude about Collison is that he is a player playing like he has no confidence. If Vogel doesn't find a way to help him get it back, then Collison is virtually useless to us through the end of the year. But even if that is the case, he is young and has performed quite well previously. There is more than a little hope there, but to me, defensive improvement is the most important concern.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 04:08 PM
last season, the pacers won 32 games. This season, we are on pace to win about 36 games. with the rough stretch of games coming up, i am not sure if we will get to 36. i am gonna say we finish with 34 wins. so by trading murphy and adding DC, we gained about 2 more wins than last season. Trade doesn't look so one-sided now does it?

You are the worst wannabe pessimist on a message board that I have ever seen.

I can see you having a problem with DC's play or George's assertiveness but to take the next step to say that Murph is better than DC and George isn't as good as 10 other rookies is flat out.. Just.. Wow.

As xBulletproof said, your angle is to lower the bar significantly to give yourself room to say that you're a realist. That's crap.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 04:12 PM
You are the worst wannabe pessimist on a message board that I have ever seen.

I can see you having a problem with DC's play or George's assertiveness but to take the next step to say that Murph is better than DC and George isn't as good as 10 other rookies is flat out.. Just.. Wow.

As xBulletproof said, your angle is to lower the bar significantly to give yourself room to say that you're a realist. That's crap.

this is off topic, but George isn't one of the 10 best rookies. not even close really. we can agree to disagree, but i don't see how you can have George cleary in the top 10 rookies.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 04:17 PM
Who are ten better rookies? Don't forget to say WHY using statistics to back your point up. I'll be waiting.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 04:20 PM
Who are ten better rookies? Don't forget to say WHY using statistics to back your point up. I'll be waiting.

Wall,Turner,Wes Johnson, Favors, Cousins, Monroe, Fields, Bledsoe, Ed Davis, gary neal.


statistics are overrated, i watch the games to decide.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 04:24 PM
Wes Johnson? Derrick Favors? Landry Fields?

If you actually do watch the games than you are blind if you think that they are better than Paul George.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Wes Johnson? Derrick Favors? Landry Fields?

If you actually do watch the games than you are blind if you think that they are better than Paul George.


30 out of 30 GM's would take Favors and Johnson over George. Probably closer to 50/50 on Landry Fields.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 04:29 PM
30 out of 30 GM's would take Favors and Johnson over George. Probably closer to 50/50 on Landry Fields.

I don't think so. Wes Johnson is Brandon Rush 2.0 and the "Bust" label is starting to creep onto Derrick Favors a little bit (Even though I would gladly take him :laugh:). If Paul George got Landry Fields' minutes on the Knicks than he would be dubbed as the "Next TMac" by the media and all that.

I am a homer for sure, but I don't think this is the case here. :laugh:

Psyren
03-07-2011, 04:31 PM
Not a chance.

Anytime you can trade one of the worst defenders this team has ever had for a budding young point guard, you do it.

Whether he turns out to be anything, who knows?

Regardless, that's a no brainer trade. No chance it was a mistake.

Keep in mind. He's in his 2nd year.

Mistakes are bound to happen. Yes, he's been downright awful, but I'm in no way ready to declare this anything close to a mistake.

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 04:39 PM
I don't think so. Wes Johnson is Brandon Rush 2.0 and the "Bust" label is starting to creep onto Derrick Favors a little bit (Even though I would gladly take him :laugh:). If Paul George got Landry Fields' minutes on the Knicks than he would be dubbed as the "Next TMac" by the media and all that.

I am a homer for sure, but I don't think this is the case here. :laugh:

Landry Fields "gets it." He plays like a veteran, and doesn't force anything. He probably won't ever be an all-star, but right now he is clearly better than Paul George. Wes Johnson and Derrick Favors you could argue are around the same level as Paul. It is close though.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 04:41 PM
Give Paul George Landry Fields' minutes on the Knicks and he is well known around the league as the next Tracy McGrady.

SMosley21
03-07-2011, 04:42 PM
hindsight is only 20/20, but as it stands it really looks like we traded for the worst starting PG in the eastern conference. I am not saying that Murphy is better than DC, but we could have gotten something better in return for an expiring contract.

Really? Who's your source?

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 04:50 PM
Really? Who's your source?

i don't have one. i read that OKC was shopping Eric Maynor.

Sookie
03-07-2011, 04:52 PM
With the exception of his shooting being off (horribly off) at the moment, all the negatives that Collison does, are the same things he has been doing all season.

This isn't a situation where he was playing lights out and then hit a slump. He has been playing like this all year, except his shot was falling, and it made people forget about all the other stuff.

His defense is horrendous, and puts all of his teammates in a bad position because they have to constantly cover for him giving up dribble penetration.

He never ran an offense well with JOB, although there was hardly an offense to run. With Vogel, he has looked like a fish out of water now that he is actually expected to be somewhat of a play maker.

He has always made way too many bad decisions.

His court vision is not poor, it is non-existent.

To me, those last three are huge red marks on a point guard's ability to play the position, and equals a poor basketball IQ, but if you think that's too harsh, fine. Are any of those points even arguable?

You can (and several people have) attribute that to his being young and inexperienced, but I believe a lot of that is stuff you either have, or you don't. It can't be taught, and it is almost never learned. It is about instincts, and knowing the game. I don't think he has it.

All that said...of the course the trade wasn't a mistake. We got rid of Murphy, which is as severe of a form of addition by subtraction as I can think of in professional sports.


I agree that he's been doing the same things all season, other than his shot not dropping. And, as you've said, he's the best example of my "shiny new toy syndrome" out there.

However, my point was that a PG as fast as Darren who can shoot, play PnR, and doesn't make stupid decisions. (Which..as I said..we can fix the not shooting thing and not making stupid decisions thing pretty easily, I think. It'll probably just come with experience.) is a quality PG, and totally worth the cost of Murphy. Whether that quality is backup PG or good starter depends on how much else of his game he fixes.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 05:09 PM
With the exception of his shooting being off (horribly off) at the moment, all the negatives that Collison does, are the same things he has been doing all season.

This isn't a situation where he was playing lights out and then hit a slump. He has been playing like this all year, except his shot was falling, and it made people forget about all the other stuff.


His defense is horrendous, and puts all of his teammates in a bad position because they have to constantly cover for him giving up dribble penetration.


He never ran an offense well with JOB, although there was hardly an offense to run. With Vogel, he has looked like a fish out of water now that he is actually expected to be somewhat of a play maker.


He has always made way too many bad decisions.


His court vision is not poor, it is non-existent.

To me, those last three are huge red marks on a point guard's ability to play the position, and equals a poor basketball IQ, but if you think that's too harsh, fine. Are any of those points even arguable?

You can (and several people have) attribute that to his being young and inexperienced, but I believe a lot of that is stuff you either have, or you don't. It can't be taught, and it is almost never learned. It is about instincts, and knowing the game. I don't think he has it.

All that said...of the course the trade wasn't a mistake. We got rid of Murphy, which is as severe of a form of addition by subtraction as I can think of in professional sports.

I agree with you. I wanted Collison to be the answer so bad. Still think he is better than TJ, but that is no consolation

xIndyFan
03-07-2011, 05:11 PM
I agree with you. I wanted Collison to be the answer so bad. Still think he is better than TJ, but that is no consolation

yes he has been. last year the pacers had the worst PG rotation in the league by a lot.

this is after adding DC and AJ improving, they are about average. that is a huge improvement. it is not drose, but it is a big first step.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 05:12 PM
Yep. After the horrid point guard rotation of last year (Worst of the league by far), this one is a lot better, but still just a little bit below average/right at average.

Psyren
03-07-2011, 05:19 PM
30 out of 30 GM's would take Favors and Johnson over George. Probably closer to 50/50 on Landry Fields.

Now hold on a second.

Have you watched Favors play? I'll assume you have, and call you out on what your basis for saying Favors is better than George is. You can't really make an argument that, based on this season (not on potential) that you'd rather have Favors over George. If you do prefer him, you either are a huge fan of underachievers or just haven't watched the Nets/Jazz play. The guy is TERRIBLE at this point in his career, even though he's 19. He's still been absolutely horrendous.

Yes, most GM's would still take him over George on potential alone. I won't argue that. Regardless, Favors has been probably the most unimpressive rookie taken in the top 10 of this previous draft. He has done absolutely nothing to make me think he was worth that pick. Nothing.

EDIT: The most unimpressive rookie in the top 10 who has actually seen decent minutes.

SMosley21
03-07-2011, 05:25 PM
i don't have one. i read that OKC was shopping Eric Maynor.

So basically your statement is irrelevant. Just because OKC may or may not have been shopping Eric Maynor, does not mean they would have taken Troy Murphy in a trade for him.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 05:31 PM
Now hold on a second.

Have you watched Favors play? I'll assume you have, and call you out on what your basis for saying Favors is better than George is. You can't really make an argument that, based on this season (not on potential) that you'd rather have Favors over George. If you do prefer him, you either are a huge fan of underachievers or just haven't watched the Nets/Jazz play. The guy is TERRIBLE at this point in his career, even though he's 19. He's still been absolutely horrendous.

Yes, most GM's would still take him over George on potential alone. I won't argue that. Regardless, Favors has been probably the most unimpressive rookie taken in the top 10 of this previous draft. He has done absolutely nothing to make me think he was worth that pick. Nothing.

EDIT: The most unimpressive rookie in the top 10 who has actually seen decent minutes.


If you were starting an NBA franchise today. Who would you take 1st? Tyreke Evans or Ray Allen?

Talent and projection make a HUGE difference in evaluating a prospect. Favors was universally thought of as one of the top 3 HS players. One of the top 5 recruits and the 3rd overall pick in the draft as a teenager. George was an anonymous prospect from a mid major school.

30 of 30 GM's will take Derrick Favors over Paul George if given the opportunity.

Trader Joe
03-07-2011, 05:37 PM
Do some of you not realize that Collison is only in his second year? For a team that sucks as much as we have, some of you still have ridiculously high expectations for second year players and rookies.

Trader Joe
03-07-2011, 05:39 PM
hindsight is only 20/20, but as it stands it really looks like we traded for the worst starting PG in the eastern conference.

Lolz

Kirk Hinrich
Brandon Jennings
Baron Davis's Nacho Covered Beard
Mike Bibby's corpse
Whoever is currently playing "point guard" for the Pistons
DJ Augustin
Jose Calderon

Are all easily offended that your forgot about them.

Psyren
03-07-2011, 05:40 PM
If you were starting an NBA franchise today. Who would you take 1st? Tyreke Evans or Ray Allen?

Talent and projection make a HUGE difference in evaluating a prospect. Favors was universally thought of as one of the top 3 HS players. One of the top 5 recruits and the 3rd overall pick in the draft as a teenager. George was an anonymous prospect from a mid major school.

30 of 30 GM's will take Derrick Favors over Paul George if given the opportunity.

If I were to start a team today? That's not really a good question to ask.

Evans simply because of age. Frankly, I'd rather have Ray Allen if I could make him Tyreke's age. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at all.

And I understand your point on potential and whatnot. I'm saying that based on what we've seen through however many NBA games have been played, what would convince you to take Favors if we were to redo the draft?

Forget the HS and College crap. None of that top 3 HS, Georgia Tech vs Fresno debate.

Based entirely on NBA performance, if I could redo this draft, I sure as hell would not take Favors over George based on both of their performances to this point.

I'd only take Favors over George if we went back to the actual draft day when Favors had all the hype bs going his way.

As an NBA player, to this point, he's sucked. No other way around it.

CableKC
03-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Yeah, it was a mistake....a mistake for the Celtics.....

If we didn't trade him...the Nets wouldn't have dumped him for Brandon Wright and Murphy wouldn't have ended up on Waivers for the Celtics to pick up.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 05:46 PM
If I were to start a team today? That's not really a good question to ask.

Evans simply because of age. Frankly, I'd rather have Ray Allen if I could make him Tyreke's age. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at all.

And I understand your point on potential and whatnot. I'm saying that based on what we've seen through however many NBA games have been played, what would convince you to take Favors if we were to redo the draft?

Forget the HS and College crap. None of that top 3 HS, Georgia Tech vs Fresno debate.

Based entirely on NBA performance, if I could redo this draft, I sure as hell would not take Favors over George based on both of their performances to this point.

I'd only take Favors over George if we went back to the actual draft day when Favors had all the hype bs going his way.

As an NBA player, to this point, he's sucked. No other way around it.


My point is that you can't measure an NBA career like March 7th 2011 is the finish line. You need to look at what each guy has the potential to be over the next 10 years. Favors is probably going to be something between Derrick Coleman and Theo Ratliff in his prime. George is probably something closer to Lamond Murray or Willie Burton. A useful 9 man rotation guy on a good team. Not a top 3 option on a good team though.

Hopefully I'm wrong?

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 05:47 PM
Lolz

Kirk Hinrich
Brandon Jennings
Baron Davis's Nacho Covered Beard
Mike Bibby's corpse
Whoever is currently playing "point guard" for the Pistons
DJ Augustin
Jose Calderon

Are all easily offended that your forgot about them.

kirk hinrich- better than DC, even though he is past his prime
Brandon Jennings- no way Milwaukee would trade him for DC
Mike Bibby- over the hill, but is better than DC right now
Baron Davis- same as Bibby
rodney stucky- clearly better than DC
DJ Augustin- close, but slightly better right now
Calderon- better by far than DC.

who am i missing?

Trader Joe
03-07-2011, 05:49 PM
kirk hinrich- better than DC, even though he is past his prime
Brandon Jennings- no way Milwaukee would trade him for DC
Mike Bibby- over the hill, but is better than DC right now
rodney stucky- clearly better than DC
DJ Augustin- close, but slightly better right now
Calderon- better by far than DC.

who am i missing?

I'm so glad we're blessed to have such a fantastic talent scout on this board.

SMosley21
03-07-2011, 05:50 PM
My point is that you can't measure an NBA career like March 7th 2011 is the finish line. You need to look at what each guy has the potential to be over the next 10 years. Favors is probably going to be something between Derrick Coleman and Theo Ratliff in his prime. George is probably something closer to Lamond Murray or Willie Burton. A useful 9 man rotation guy on a good team. Not a top 3 option on a good team though.

Hopefully I'm wrong?

I'll give you 3 points for the Willie Burton reference but I think your argument about potential doesn't make much sense considering George has about as much potential as any player from this rookie class, AND has actually displayed some of it. Favors has a mystical aura of potential but has yet to show any of said potential.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 05:51 PM
Aaron, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Paul George was dubbed as a project from day one just as much as Derrick Favors was. Someone like Brandon Rush, Gerald Henderson, or Landry Fields don't really have room to improve because they lack potential and their age, but Paul and Favors are both big time projects and they aren't really close to reaching their potential at all. Paul is just showing his talents early whereas Favors hasn't shown his- yet.

For the record aaron, when I point you out I hope you know that I'm kidding with you or teasing you. I like your posts about the league, our players, etc. except when you go on one of those Bird tirades. :laugh:

Justin Tyme
03-07-2011, 06:29 PM
Wall,Turner,Wes Johnson, Favors, Cousins, Monroe, Fields, Bledsoe, Ed Davis, gary neal.


statistics are overrated, i watch the games to decide.


Ed Davis & Eric Bledsoe??

I wouldn't trade Hans for Davis! 6.8 & 6.8 in more minutes than George shooting 41% and 50 something % FT.

I like Bledsoe, but no way is he better than George. His shooting % across the board are less than Georges with more minutes.

Stats aren't that overrated in this instance. Few if any GM's would take either over George.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 07:25 PM
Lolz

Kirk Hinrich
Brandon Jennings
Baron Davis's Nacho Covered Beard
Mike Bibby's corpse
Whoever is currently playing "point guard" for the Pistons
DJ Augustin
Jose Calderon

Are all easily offended that your forgot about them.

I would take DJ and Jennings over DC all day. DJ is a pure pg and a very solid one. Jennings is DC but just better.

NapTonius Monk
03-07-2011, 07:29 PM
if you classify Darren Collision as "quality" than you have pretty low standards.
:hmm: Maybe not elite, but not even a 'quality' pg?

NapTonius Monk
03-07-2011, 07:31 PM
Lord help anyone that goes in a slump anymore. This is his 1st year with the team. He's having a rough stretch, yes. But weighed in the balance vs. the Murphy era, I'm willing to give Collison a bit more leash than just a partial season.

DemonHunter1105
03-07-2011, 07:37 PM
I would take DJ and Jennings over DC all day. DJ is a pure pg and a very solid one. Jennings is DC but just better.

Jennings has ok D, but I just don't like his game. He plays almost like Inferno but with better ball handling skills. He is not much of a jumpshooter, but thinks he can score from anywhere when he really can't. He is just sooo inefficient at scoring it drives me nuts.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 07:39 PM
I actually think that the Bucks are more dangerous without Brandon Jennings than they are with him.

Sookie
03-07-2011, 07:54 PM
That's funny, the last time we played the Bucks with Jennings, all I could think about was "I'm glad we have DC instead of Jennings"

Hicks
03-07-2011, 07:55 PM
I'm on record as not caring for Collison as a player since the day the trade was made. But even to me this trade is a total slam dunk just because of who we lost. Addition by subtraction doesn't do it justice.

By the way, isn't it time to update your signature to either two or three down (TJ and probably Mike)?

aaronb
03-07-2011, 08:00 PM
That's funny, the last time we played the Bucks with Jennings, all I could think about was "I'm glad we have DC instead of Jennings"

We've also got people who want Hansbro over Z-Bo, and worry that Mayo would steal minutes from Stephenson.

The lesson as always is you'll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the masses!!!!!

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 08:03 PM
We've also got people who want Hansbro over Z-Bo, and worry that Mayo would steal minutes from Stephenson.

The lesson as always is you'll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the masses!!!!!

Yeah I'll admit, things like that make me laugh even though we don't see it as much. Zach is basically a veteran version of Kevin Love minus the three point shooting and OJ Mayo would be the number one option on our team. He'd probably average around 20 PPG for us. Problem for him is that he has two fringe all stars on his team (Rudy and Zach) along with a good center and point guard so he has to defer.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 08:10 PM
That's funny, the last time we played the Bucks with Jennings, all I could think about was "I'm glad we have DC instead of Jennings"

Did u watch Jennings last night he almost single handledly beat Boston. His team has no talent with Bogut being injuied. The guy plays like DC but is a much better passerr and much better defense.

DJ is like AJ just he gets PT and produces he his among the leaders in assit to TO ratio I would taake him over DC

aaronb
03-07-2011, 08:22 PM
Yeah I'll admit, things like that make me laugh even though we don't see it as much. Zach is basically a veteran version of Kevin Love minus the three point shooting and OJ Mayo would be the number one option on our team. He'd probably average around 20 PPG for us. Problem for him is that he has two fringe all stars on his team (Rudy and Zach) along with a good center and point guard so he has to defer.

Being a transplanted Hoosier who lives in Memphis. I watch or attend almost every Grizz game. Zach and OJ are exactly what the Pacers need to plan their offseason around. Zach is a force in the box. Excellent offensive rebounder who scores with post moves. He doesn't rely on athleticism to be effective. So he should age well. He's legitimately at top 30 player, and would instantly be the best player on this roster.

Mayo is a good passer and ballhandler who has a nice midrange game, and can flat out score. He creates his own shot almost at will. Which is something the Pacers have always had a hard time finding. He really reminds me of a smaller Jalen Rose. I guarantee we will be thrilled if ended up here. This slashing ability would help Danny get better jumpshots.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 08:26 PM
Being a transported Hoosier who lives in Memphis. I watch or attend almost every Grizz game. Zach and OJ are exactly what the Pacers need to plan their offseason around. Zach is a force in the box. Excellent offensive rebounder who scores with post moves. He doesn't rely on athleticism to be effective. So he should age well. He's legitimately at top 30 player, and would instantly be the best player on this roster.

Mayo is a good passer and ballhandler who has a nice midrange game, and can flat out score. He creates his own shot almost at will. Which is something the Pacers have always had a hard time finding. He really reminds me of a smaller Jalen Rose. I guarantee we will be thrilled if ended up here. This slashing ability would help Danny get better jumpshots.

That still pisses me off that we didn't trade him for Josh. :p :laugh:

OJ Mayo reminds me of a less "Me" oriented Jamal Crawford.. I never got to see Jalen Rose in his prime because I'm younger, but I know that he was a very good player. He just obviously needs a change of scenery.

And ZBo would obviously become our best player as he's been splitting the limelight with Rudy in Memphis and Rudy Gay is better than Danny. He'd be great for us. Yes I do understand the past "problems", but the gamble is easily worth it as he is what the doctor ordered.

If we got them both would you quit disliking Bird? :p :laugh:

throwbackpacer
03-07-2011, 08:30 PM
Patience, patience, patience. I think it was a very good trade, and will pay off in the next couple of years big time. Second year guy still learning--would be nice if we had someone to teach by example, however.

Day-V
03-07-2011, 09:10 PM
Did u watch Jennings last night he almost single handledly beat Boston. His team has no talent with Bogut being injuied. The guy plays like DC but is a much better passerr and much better defense.


I guess you didn't hear about this considering you decided not to sit with the rest of Area 55 when we went to Milwaukee, but most of their fans have not been too thrilled with Jennings' play at any point this year. Pacero, kielbeze, redfoster, myself, and others talked to that Chuckles guy from Squad 6 after the game. He went on for a good 5-10 minutes about how Jennings needed to go.


Grass ain't always greener. Just sayin'. I'm happy we got (stole) DC. I think he has the type of mentality where he can improve. And I'm thinking (hoping, at least) he's about ready to bust out of this funk and everyone can shut up and shift all their hatred to either Paul, Roy, Danny, Tyler, or Rush.

BlueNGold
03-07-2011, 09:10 PM
I have not read this thread, but the title is ludicrous. I would have traded Murphy for any play on this team just to get his game off our court. The fact we got an asset like Collison still looks great even if he's not the answer.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 09:17 PM
I guess you didn't hear about this considering you decided not to sit with the rest of Area 55 when we went to Milwaukee, but most of their fans have not been too thrilled with Jennings' play at any point this year. Pacero, kielbeze, redfoster, myself, and others talked to that Chuckles guy from Squad 6 after the game. He went on for a good 5-10 minutes about how Jennings needed to go.


Grass ain't always greener. Just sayin'. I'm happy we got (stole) DC. I think he has the type of mentality where he can improve. And I'm thinking (hoping, at least) he's about ready to bust out of this funk and everyone can shut up and shift all their hatred to either Paul, Roy, Danny, Tyler, or Rush.


Isn't Jennings also 4 years younger than Collison? Is it possible he can improve?

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 09:17 PM
I guess you didn't hear about this considering you decided not to sit with the rest of Area 55 when we went to Milwaukee, but most of their fans have not been too thrilled with Jennings' play at any point this year. Pacero, kielbeze, redfoster, myself, and others talked to that Chuckles guy from Squad 6 after the game. He went on for a good 5-10 minutes about how Jennings needed to go.


Grass ain't always greener. Just sayin'. I'm happy we got (stole) DC. I think he has the type of mentality where he can improve. And I'm thinking (hoping, at least) he's about ready to bust out of this funk and everyone can shut up and shift all their hatred to either Paul, Roy, Danny, Tyler, or Rush.

I know there fans dont like him. I read the Bucks board on realgm. But they dont like him because he shoots too much and doesnt pass. Same reason much on here dont like DC. But Brandon can defend thats why I would take him over DC. Plus he is yonger and has better court vision just doesnt pass enoght some times.

EDIT: he puts up better stats with less talent around him but I get your point (Bogut is not the same since his injury)

Volginator
03-07-2011, 09:18 PM
As we head into the All-Star break, it seems an appropriate time to take a step back and evaluate the new talent that has entered the league in the past two seasons. No one can deny that each class, taken on its own merits, has been short on top-tier talent. But what about when we look at them combined?

When we consider that no fewer than nine different players are considered the likely faces of their team's future and another five play either pivotal or starting roles for playoff teams, we begin to see that the NBA has added plenty of strong players the last two summers.

Let's stack them up and rank them, not based on future performances or what they did last year, but strictly on how they have done so far this season.
Griffin
1. Blake Griffin, Clippers
Did you expect to see anyone else here? We'd have to go back to the 2008 draft to find anyone who can compete with Griffin for the top spot. If we did, he'd be notched just below Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and probably Kevin Love as the fourth-best player to enter the NBA in the past three years.
No one in the past two drafts comes close to matching the productivity or star power of Griffin.
2. Stephen Curry, Warriors
To my eye, he's the best player on an improving Golden State team. He can beat you with his long-range shooting, his passing and his ability to generate buckets against good defense. And none of those things are his best gift, which is his intelligence.
He was terrific last season and has been even better this season, improving in almost every metric we keep track of. His defense isn't as bad you think either. Besides, Steve Nash, who isn't known for his defense, won two MVPs. This guy is Nash all over again.
3. DeJuan Blair, Spurs
The best college rebounder to enter the NBA in years continues to pound the boards and the teams who passed on him in the 2009 draft (he went 37th overall). He's a solid starter on the league's best team and, after a rough start to the season, playing the best ball of his short career.
His great hands are not just good for rebounding in traffic, but also for stripping ball handlers and shooters attacking the rim -- he leads all bigs in steals per 48 minutes. And in a bit of irony, no player in his draft class has appeared in more games.
4. Serge Ibaka, Thunder
If you want to see how a player can impact a team without putting up double-doubles or huge scoring numbers, study Ibaka. Everyone sees what he does on defense (he leads all rookies and sophs in blocks), but the Thunder are also a much better offensive team when he's on the floor. He finishes over 70 percent of his shots in the paint and makes 45 percent of his pick-and-pops.
In short, he's the third-best player on one of the top 10 teams in the NBA.
5. Jrue Holiday, 76ers
A case can be made that Philly is the league's most improved team and Holiday, who leads the Sixers in minutes played, just might be its most valuable player. He sets the stage for the team on offense and defense, ranking second in assists and fourth in steals among all first- and second-year players.
He has also proved to be a much better shooter from distance, coming up huge in the scoring department in multiple games this season. Most recently, he poured in 27 of his team's 77 points in an upset of the Spurs. A change in Philly's offense might signal less production from Holiday, however, which would likely move him down this list.
6. Darren Collison, Pacers
Collison is quietly coming on as a high-level point guard. Solid for the first half of the season, he has been terrific since the coaching change in Indiana.
The Pacers have won eight of their past 10, and Collison is the steady hand at the wheel of this run.

-That was according to David Thorpe on ESPN Insider. Every player has ups and downs sure he isn't playing well now but seeing how he went from learning from Chris Paul & Byron Scott to JOB and watching TJ Ford attempting to play PG. I think a bad month is understandable.

Day-V
03-07-2011, 09:20 PM
Isn't Jennings also 4 years younger than Collison? Is it possible he can improve?

2 years, but I get your point. Guy could totally improve.

BRushWithDeath
03-07-2011, 09:36 PM
By the way, isn't it time to update your signature to either two or three down (TJ and probably Mike)?

Good call. I haven't paid attention to it all season.

I never even took the time to add Posey.

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 10:14 PM
Just my opinion:

Dc and Jennings are on their 2nd year. Stat wise they are very similar. I think DC has a better jump shot for sure. But, DC needs to apply defensive effort. I am very pleased with DC. He has had some bad games as of late but the offense is being ran differently and for a 2 year PG, I think it would affect him more then anyone else on the team.

I think we get a very talented PF and SG with a very good coach, DC will be fine. Maybe the new coach can work on PnR, PnP, and practice simple cutting to the basket. DC has to facilitate but he needs plays and players to facilitate too and players that can finish at the rim. Not one throwing up prayers after standing in post position for 5 seconds and the other faking till he gets fouled or blocked or throwing up more prayers. I hope you know who i'm talking about, cause, If you don't know, should you be down talking DC?

Lets be excited that the Pacers can finally rebuild this coming year without weights on their feet.

:dance::dance::dance:

diamonddave00
03-07-2011, 10:21 PM
I find it interesting you point out Jennings is 2 years younger than Collison and can improve. But ignore the fact Paul George is only 20 years old.

Darren Collison is playing on a very low salary for an NBA starter ( 1.4, 1.5, and 2.3 mil= 5.13 mil) for this season and the next 2 years. Gaining valuable playing time and hopefully improving . Who could the Pacers have gotten for less money and talent ?

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 10:31 PM
I find it interesting you point out Jennings is 2 years younger than Collison and can improve. But ignore the fact Paul George is only 20 years old.Darren Collison is playing on a very low salary for an NBA starter ( 1.4, 1.5, and 2.3 mil= 5.13 mil) for this season and the next 2 years. Gaining valuable playing time and hopefully improving . Who could the Pacers have gotten for less money and talent ?

LOL who are you talking about? Of corse Paul will improve I dont think anyone is arguing that

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 10:34 PM
I find it interesting you point out Jennings is 2 years younger than Collison and can improve. But ignore the fact Paul George is only 20 years old.

Darren Collison is playing on a very low salary for an NBA starter ( 1.4, 1.5, and 2.3 mil= 5.13 mil) for this season and the next 2 years. Gaining valuable playing time and hopefully improving . Who could the Pacers have gotten for less money and talent ?

Good Point....Nobody!

Pacergeek
03-07-2011, 10:46 PM
That's funny, the last time we played the Bucks with Jennings, all I could think about was "I'm glad we have DC instead of Jennings"

any rational NBA fan would pick Jennings over Collison. Jennings scored 55 pts in a single game. Scoring 50 pts in a game is impressive, and nobody on the Pacers has really came close. I highly Doubt DC will ever get to 50.

Trophy
03-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Brandon Jennings isn't what he was last year.

He's settling too much and not involving his teammates like he did last season.

That team isn't playing like a unit this season.

I feel like DC is more of a PG than Jennings.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 10:51 PM
At least DC doesn't attempt to score 55 points every game resulting in a career 37% field goal percentage.

Brandon Jennings is obviously more talented than Darren Collison, but Brandon Jennings thinks so highly of himself that it is a detriment to his team. He has a negative impact on his team whereas DC is usually null, and sometimes a positive impact.

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 10:55 PM
At least DC doesn't attempt to score 55 points every game resulting in a career 37% field goal percentage.

Brandon Jennings is obviously more talented than Darren Collison, but Brandon Jennings thinks so highly of himself that it is a detriment to his team. He has a negative impact on his team whereas DC is usually null, and sometimes a positive impact.

This makes no sence.

15th parallel
03-07-2011, 11:00 PM
How many times did he score more than 50 pts? Correct me if I'm wrong but he only did it once. Plus his fg% is not that high to let him jack up too many shots.

At least DC has recorded a triple double in his rookie year.

As for DC was a trade mistake, just look at Troy Murphy right now. He got a Tinsley treatment in NJ, and is just not contributing much to Boston. DC has struggled for a month, but for the whole season? Not much, really. He's young, he's new to the system (well, 2 systems actually). So you really can't expect too much this season for him, or for the rest of the young guys, to be consistent. Just let them play through this, and next season we will really see if they have improved.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 11:01 PM
This makes no sence.

Allen Iverson has talent, but he didn't play a team game. Chauncey Billups doesn't have the skills of AI, but he helps the team. Teams would rather have Billups.

Brandon Jennings has talent (To a much slighter degree), but he doesn't play a team game. Darren Collison doesn't have the talent of Brandon Jennings, but he helps the team most of the time (To a much, much slighter degree compared to Chauncey)

Does that make "sence"? Brandon Jennings' talent isn't worth the 5-23 shooting headaches all of the time.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:06 PM
Allen Iverson has talent, but he didn't play a team game. Chauncey Billups doesn't have the skills of AI, but he helps the team. Teams would rather have Billups.

Brandon Jennings has talent (To a much slighter degree), but he doesn't play a team game. Darren Collison doesn't have the talent of Brandon Jennings, but he helps the team most of the time (To a much, much slighter degree compared to Chauncey)

Does that make "sence"? Brandon Jennings' talent isn't worth the 5-23 shooting headaches all of the time.

Thats why AI almost one a title in philly with the real DC as his 2nd best player:dance:

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:08 PM
How many times did he score more than 50 pts? Correct me if I'm wrong but he only did it once. Plus his fg% is not that high to let him jack up too many shots.

At least DC has recorded a triple double in his rookie year.

As for DC was a trade mistake, just look at Troy Murphy right now. He got a Tinsley treatment in NJ, and is just not contributing much to Boston. DC has struggled for a month, but for the whole season? Not much, really. He's young, he's new to the system (well, 2 systems actually). So you really can't expect too much this season for him, or for the rest of the young guys, to be consistent. Just let them play through this, and next season we will really see if they have improved.

:confused:Thats why Jennings lead his team to the playoffs last year as a rookie and if Bogut was healthy they could have done damage. I would take a 50 win season opposed to a triple double.

90'sNBARocked
03-07-2011, 11:09 PM
I know there fans dont like him. I read the Bucks board on realgm. But they dont like him because he shoots too much and doesnt pass. Same reason much on here dont like DC. But Brandon can defend thats why I would take him over DC. Plus he is yonger and has better court vision just doesnt pass enoght some times.

EDIT: he puts up better stats with less talent around him but I get your point (Bogut is not the same since his injury)

Not to mention he scored 50+ points in one game as a rookie, something I would bet everything I own that DC will never do

As far as the fans, they will vent on anyone when the team is not doing well

I would take Jennings in a nanosecond over DC

I do though think DC can and will improve to be a good PG

cdash
03-07-2011, 11:13 PM
Not to mention he scored 50+ points in one game as a rookie, something I would bet everything I own that DC will never do

As far as the fans, they will vent on anyone when the team is not doing well

I would take Jennings in a nanosecond over DC

I do though think DC can and will improve to be a good PG

Funny you say this--that is exactly what is going on with us right now. Fans as a whole are very reactionary. I'm not nearly as concerned about DC, Danny, or Roy as most people seem to be. It's all in the ebs and flows of the season. Yeah, they all have their issues and downsides, but I'm not willing to give up on any of them or declare anything definitively.

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 11:14 PM
Hey, all I'm saying is that Brandon Jennings doesn't help his team win games. They were better with Earl Boykins starting.

A lot like how we were better last year when Earl Watson started over TJ Ford.

This year DC has been better than Brandon Jennings due to health and helping his team win. P4E, I think you are forgetting how DC was pretty solid before the past 12 game and Brandon Jennings was mightily struggling.

BTW, the reason the won 50 games last year was because of Bogut, Salmons, and THEN Jennings.

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 11:16 PM
Hey, all I'm saying is that Brandon Jennings doesn't help his team win games. They were better with Earl Boykins starting.

A lot like how we were better last year when Earl Watson started over TJ Ford.

:eek: ...... :loco:

BringJackBack
03-07-2011, 11:17 PM
Have you seen Brandon Jennings play recently? Most overrated point guard in the league.

15th parallel
03-07-2011, 11:17 PM
:confused:Thats why Jennings lead his team to the playoffs last year as a rookie and if Bogut was healthy they could have done damage. I would take a 50 win season opposed to a triple double.

I didn't mean 50-win season, but 50 or more points scored by Jennings. Well, DC was on the tough West in his rookie year while Jennings was on a weak East as a rookie so it's easier for the Bucks to enter the playoffs.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 11:20 PM
I didn't mean 50-win season, but 50 or more points scored by Jennings. Well, DC was on the tough West in his rookie year while Jennings was on a weak East as a rookie so it's easier for the Bucks to enter the playoffs.

they won 50 games that makes the playoffs out west. If we were in the west we would be damm near last place.

daschysta
03-07-2011, 11:35 PM
Wow. That is all that I have to say. Most people wanted us to play the lineup we are playing right now, supposedly fully aware that by playing the young guys so many minutes, while it will be good in the long run, will lead to some bumps in the road while they get their feet underneath them.

Darren, Roy, Brandon, Aj, Lance tyler, josh and paul are all very young, and PG's and Centers take alot of time to develop.

Darren has had a rough stretch of games, it happens to second year point guards, his shot has been off, and he's been having some trouble. He'll adjust and just continue to get better.

When players are so young thery will look like crap for some periods of time, it wasn't long ago that darren was arguably our best and most consistant player.

Darren is doing just fine, and is better than brandon jennings.

These young guys deserve a leash much longer than some of you guys are giving them.

Mackey_Rose
03-07-2011, 11:42 PM
I realize I have a low opinion of DC, but seriously, Brandon Jennings is so much better it isn't even funny.

90'sNBARocked
03-07-2011, 11:44 PM
Funny you say this--that is exactly what is going on with us right now. Fans as a whole are very reactionary. I'm not nearly as concerned about DC, Danny, or Roy as most people seem to be. It's all in the ebs and flows of the season. Yeah, they all have their issues and downsides, but I'm not willing to give up on any of them or declare anything definitively.

So true,

I have been on the boards at RealGM , and if we were playing the Lakers there would always be multiple post how Kobe sucks or Gasol is garbage. or the Lakers will get knocked out in the first round

its funny as heck

Pacersalltheway10
03-07-2011, 11:44 PM
Collison>>>>>>>>>> Murphy

And it's not even close. You gotta be kidding me. HE'S STILL A YOUNG PLAYER. HE CAN iMPROVE

15th parallel
03-08-2011, 12:26 AM
they won 50 games that makes the playoffs out west. If we were in the west we would be damm near last place.

I think we're misunderstanding here. What I meant was the number of games of Jennings that he scored 50 or more points, not the Bucks being a 50-win team last year. I'm just arguing with the previous poster that said it is much desirable for a player who scored more than 50 just once in his current career. BTW, they were a 46-win team last year (Jenning's Rookie year), not enough to make the West playoffs that year (where the 8th seed OKC was 50-32).

It's still too early to tell who'll be better of the two. Right now it's Jennings, but depending on what happens on the next years it maybe different. There were players who started out strong, but also had a faster decline on the later years. And the opposite is also true, where there are players who started slow, but bloomed after a few years.

cdash
03-08-2011, 12:29 AM
they won 50 games that makes the playoffs out west. If we were in the west we would be damm near last place.

This is splitting hairs, but the Bucks only won 46 games last year. Point still stands though.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:37 AM
Is this thread a mistake?

15th parallel
03-08-2011, 12:39 AM
Is this thread a mistake?

Yeah, most likely.

PR07
03-08-2011, 12:40 AM
What was Murphy giving us besides stat-padding and taking minutes away from Roy, Tyler, and Josh?

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:42 AM
This is splitting hairs, but the Bucks only won 46 games last year. Point still stands though.

They went 22-8 down the stetch damm. If Bogut didnt get hurt they could have done something in the playoffs they were scary hot.

Ozwalt72
03-08-2011, 12:43 AM
What was Murphy giving us besides stat-padding and taking minutes away from Roy, Tyler, and Josh?

That top of the key trailing 3 pointer was the only thing I actually liked from Troy.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:44 AM
That top of the key trailing 3 pointer was the only thing I actually liked from Troy.

:puke: it made me cringe

Ozwalt72
03-08-2011, 12:45 AM
:puke: it made me cringe

Eh I didn't like it coming from my power forward but at least he hit it at a very good clip.

Jared Sullinger
03-08-2011, 12:54 AM
Knowing how much Pacer fans here loved T.J. Ford, I'd love to see their reaction to Brandon Jennings. He's a point guard who averages three-times as many shot attempts as assists while shooting a blistering .376 from the field. He's late-stage Jamaal Tinsley on (more?) crack. Those saying he's better than the new whipping boy, Darren Collison, need to stop judging talents based on number of SLAM covers and start watching actual games.


P.S. - Posting a photo of R. Kelly and Usher doesn't qualify as a worthy rebuttal.

oxxo
03-08-2011, 12:56 AM
No the trade was not a mistake. Not even close. Even if DC ends up being nothing more than a backup.

And Brandon Jennings was the most overrated player to come along in a long long time. 37% shooting with 15 attempts per game from your PG? No thank you. Call me crazy, but when I watch the Bucks they seem better without him.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 12:56 AM
Knowing how much Pacer fans here loved T.J. Ford, I'd love to see their reaction to Brandon Jennings. He's a point guard who averages three-times as many shot attempts as assists while shooting a blistering .376 from the field. He's late-stage Jamaal Tinsley on (more?) crack. Those saying he's better than the new whipping boy, Darren Collison, need to stop judging talents based on number of SLAM covers and start watching actual games.


P.S. - Posting a photo of R. Kelly and Usher doesn't qualify as a worthy rebuttal.

I judge off watching games not by stats like some............

Day-V
03-08-2011, 12:56 AM
Knowing how much Pacer fans here loved T.J. Ford, I'd love to see their reaction to Brandon Jennings. He's a point guard who averages three-times as many shot attempts as assists while shooting a blistering .376 from the field. He's late-stage Jamaal Tinsley on (more?) crack. Those saying he's better than the new whipping boy, Darren Collison, need to stop judging talents based on number of SLAM covers and start watching actual games.


P.S. - Posting a photo of R. Kelly and Usher doesn't qualify as a worthy rebuttal.

Can I go with this?

:citizenkane:

oxxo
03-08-2011, 01:00 AM
Wall,Turner,Wes Johnson, Favors, Cousins, Monroe, Fields, Bledsoe, Ed Davis, gary neal.


statistics are overrated, i watch the games to decide.


how can you be certain that this is a clear case of addition by subtraction? is our record any better than what it was a year ago at this time? i am gonna do some research. just because you thought Troy was "bad", and DC is an "upgrade", unless the team gets more wins, then your claim is not validated.

If you're going to make this argument at least don't have double standards. You get to use statistics when it suits your argument (wins) and statistics don't matter when it doesn't (PG vs other rookies)? :\

Jared Sullinger
03-08-2011, 01:03 AM
I judge off watching games not by stats like some............

:wtf2:



(I've always wanted to do that to you :laugh:)

cdash
03-08-2011, 01:25 AM
I judge off watching games not by stats like some............

You can do both...

michealwilliams4
03-08-2011, 03:05 AM
I loved Jennings coming out of...I guess Europe. I wanted him as a Pacer given the slipping he would do. There wasn't a player I wanted more. When he was taken, I was dejected to a ridiculous degree. But he's been a serious hindrance to his team's success this year.

I love watching Jennings, but he's become best friends with Nick Young and Louis Williams in the school of players I love cheering for, but would off myself if they became Pacers and that kills me to say. Until Jennings can get his shot under control, he's one of the least valuable players in the league and I wouldn't touch him with intentions of him being a reliable scorer.

So what if he won them 46 games last year? This team is not last year's team. Bucks are 8-11 when he doesn't play, 15-27 when he does. The Bucks haven't had an 8-11 stretch when Jennings plays all year. Enough with Jennings. I don't think that means he's done, or he can't improve, but I think it's funny, because if we had Jennings and Milwaukee had traded for Collison, we'd be talking about how much better Collison is. That is a fact. Been said probably sixteen times in this thread, but the grass is always greener. Collison was a steal. Quit getting down on your own players just because they're your players.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 03:21 AM
I loved Jennings coming out of...I guess Europe. I wanted him as a Pacer given the slipping he would do. There wasn't a player I wanted more. When he was taken, I was dejected to a ridiculous degree. But he's been a serious hindrance to his team's success this year.

I love watching Jennings, but he's become best friends with Nick Young and Louis Williams in the school of players I love cheering for, but would off myself if they became Pacers and that kills me to say. Until Jennings can get his shot under control, he's one of the least valuable players in the league and I wouldn't touch him with intentions of him being a reliable scorer.

So what if he won them 46 games last year? This team is not last year's team. Bucks are 8-11 when he doesn't play, 15-27 when he does. The Bucks haven't had an 8-11 stretch when Jennings plays all year. Enough with Jennings. I don't think that means he's done, or he can't improve, but I think it's funny, because if we had Jennings and Milwaukee had traded for Collison, we'd be talking about how much better Collison is. That is a fact. Been said probably sixteen times in this thread, but the grass is always greener. Collison was a steal. Quit getting down on your own players just because they're your players.

I agree to a point but Jennings hs been through a lot this year I expect him to bounce back next year

Pacergeek
03-08-2011, 09:01 AM
i was thinking that Collison may actually be the worst starting PG in the NBA. i can't think of anybody that he is better than,

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 09:03 AM
i was thinking that Collison may actually be the worst starting PG in the NBA. i can't think of anybody that he is better than,

and Troy Murphy is the worst PF in the history of basketball.

Pacergeek
03-08-2011, 09:13 AM
and Troy Murphy is the worst PF in the history of basketball.

which pg is DC better than? Trader Joe had a humorous list of players like Baron Davis and Jose Calderon. Lol. i think he was joking though.

Trader Joe
03-08-2011, 10:31 AM
which pg is DC better than? Trader Joe had a humorous list of players like Baron Davis and Jose Calderon. Lol. i think he was joking though.

No, I wasn't.

xIndyFan
03-08-2011, 12:44 PM
i was thinking that Collison may actually be the worst starting PG in the NBA. i can't think of anybody that he is better than,


and Troy Murphy is the worst PF in the history of basketball.

now you're both being silly. neither of these statements is even close to accurate. :-p :laugh:

collison is an average starting PG. better than some. worse than others.

murphy is a bad starting PF, but would make a find backup PF on most teams.

daschysta
03-08-2011, 02:26 PM
This thread is ridiculous, especially when you consider the fact that the vast majority of posters considered losing murphy to be a positive unto itself.

It's silly to judge a second year point guard based on one bad streak of games. Earlier this year collison was really dynamite for us, he obviously has potential, and I think that eventually he can be a very good starting point guard.

He currently averages 13 and 5, which is respectable when you take into account the turnover in our systems, he's made headway into greatly reducing his number of turnovers, and before this recent down streak was maybe our most consistant scoring option other than granger, who has been up and down in that regard as well.

I just hope all of you are equally fickle when he starts playing well again, or better yet, you should understand that he's a second year point guard being asked to run a team, he'll have his downs and his ups. Just be glad we're giving him time to develop, as opposed to last year, or any time in recent pacers memory, where someone like earl watson or TJ ford would be manning the position. Hibbert and Collison are both very young and learning the two hardest positions in the game... trade talk?!?! seriously? That's the definition of selling low, we've seen the potential of both, let's let them grow instead of running them out of town. You all desired giving minutes to the youngsters, and this is what it entails. I suggest you live with the bumps, so that we can reap the rewards in the future.

Sookie
03-08-2011, 02:34 PM
No, I wasn't.

I would take DC, terrible stretch and all, over Davis and Calderon 10 out of 10 times.

NuffSaid
03-08-2011, 03:01 PM
If you judge the trade based on this season alone, then no. But if you judge it based on the young talent we acquired - a young and promising PG - and the fact that they got some much need cap space to boot, then YES, it was a very good trade.

Of course, we also have to accept the fact that it's going to be another year or two before all the accumulated young talent the Pacers have acquired via trades and the draft in recent years truly begins to gel, but I'd say Collison for Murphy was worth it.

cdash
03-08-2011, 03:21 PM
I would take DC, terrible stretch and all, over Davis and Calderon 10 out of 10 times.

Yeah, I agree.

I think the clearest message I've gotten from this thread is that bhaas is trying to antagonize people.

Unclebuck
03-08-2011, 03:33 PM
I just think Collison isn't as good as we thought or hoped.

He is small, he needs time to get his jump shot off and he cannot shoot well on the move (except for a halfway decent floater) he doesn't see the court very well, isn't a instinctive passer. So I think his offensive problems are just the way he is. it also seems to me that he is best when he tries to score first and pass second. That might not be the best thing for the team, but he plays better when looking for his own shot

Defensively I wonder if he could or should be better. I remember against Chris Paul earlier this season he defended him very well, while against lesser players he has struggled. Sure he is small (short and light, which is a bad combo) but sometimes his lateral quickness just looks horrible and I don't know if it is just horrible or if he just is slow reacting. The most troubling thing though defensively is I see a lack of multiple efforts - he'll try hard on the first attempt but if he gets beat he often just stops.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 03:48 PM
I would take DC, terrible stretch and all, over Davis and Calderon 10 out of 10 times.

Calderon is your type of pg though

cdash
03-08-2011, 03:54 PM
Calderon is your type of pg though

How so?

aaronb
03-08-2011, 03:55 PM
Of course, we also have to accept the fact that it's going to be another year or two before all the accumulated young talent the Pacers have acquired via trades and the draft in recent years truly begins to gel,


Greg Dreiling, Pooh Richardson and Randy Whitman were young players once upon a time. They stayed mediocre throughout their careers.

Usually a mediocre 25 year old role player, is going to be a mediocre 30 year old role player. That's kind of the rub with using lotto picks on 23 and 24 year old role players.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 03:57 PM
How so?

sookie likes pg's who pass and can run the offense that Caldron

cdash
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
sookie likes pg's who pass and can run the offense that Caldron

By that description, then everybody would like Calderon. Who doesn't like point guards who can pass and run the offense? :laugh:

BringJackBack
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
I think the clearest message I've gotten from this thread is that bhaas is trying to antagonize people.

Ding, ding, ding.

Really?
03-08-2011, 04:05 PM
Muprhy was good for Obrien's system... but the thing is the NBA is a lot about strategy... you have to have a coach that can get the best overall production out of his players and you have to develop a system that works the best with what you have.

Also Collision has the ability to be good in certain settings just like the majority of NBA players... you have to understand that he is in a slump right now and even after that he is only going to be so good... I think a lot of people got fooled and believed he was a top NBA pg... we should go back and look at some of the threads when the trade happened and look at what some of you all were saying... it was ridiculous.

But on another not a lot of times in the NBA if a starter isn't a super star there is a guy on the bench that is just as good for his team but he just doesn't have the opportunity to play the minutes that the other guy is playing.

Look what happened to Aaron Brooks.

Even though I have never been the biggest fan I doubt that collision is the biggest problem or even close to the biggest problem on our team right now..

Pacergeek
03-08-2011, 04:18 PM
I would take DC, terrible stretch and all, over Davis and Calderon 10 out of 10 times.

calderon is a pure PG, he is a distributor and knows how to run an offense. Baron Davis, even though on the decline, can still get it going if he is motivated. He can get hot and take over games. Has DC hit one single big shot in crunch time this season? I can't think of one single big shot that he has hit. I am not saying that Collison couldn't be better than those guys in the future, but right now those two guys are better.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 04:21 PM
calderon is a pure PG, he is a distributor and knows how to run an offense. Baron Davis, even though on the decline, can still get it going if he is motivated. He can get hot and take over games. Has DC hit one single big shot in crunch time this season? I can't think of one single big shot that he has hit. I am not saying that Collison couldn't be better than those guys in the future, but right now those two guys are better.
:puke:
Im more likely to play pg in the NBA before this happens Baron has been stealing money for years it isnt gonna change.

Pacergeek
03-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Muprhy was good for Obrien's system... but the thing is the NBA is a lot about strategy... you have to have a coach that can get the best overall production out of his players and you have to develop a system that works the best with what you have.

Also Collision has the ability to be good in certain settings just like the majority of NBA players... you have to understand that he is in a slump right now and even after that he is only going to be so good... I think a lot of people got fooled and believed he was a top NBA pg... we should go back and look at some of the threads when the trade happened and look at what some of you all were saying... it was ridiculous.

But on another not a lot of times in the NBA if a starter isn't a super star there is a guy on the bench that is just as good for his team but he just doesn't have the opportunity to play the minutes that the other guy is playing.

Look what happened to Aaron Brooks.

Even though I have never been the biggest fan I doubt that collision is the biggest problem or even close to the biggest problem on our team right now..

i will have to disagee. a PG is what this team has needed for several years now. We thought we had the answer when we traded for DC, but it is now apparent that he isn't who we thought he was. I was very high on him last season and i was angry that we didn't draft him after he had a 20 assist game. I was on his jock, and I was even dumb enough to think that he would be our best player. Hopefully, we can find a way to draft Kyrie Irving.

daschysta
03-08-2011, 04:23 PM
i will have to disagee. a PG is what this team has needed for several years now. We thought we had the answer when we traded for DC, but it is now apparent that he isn't who we thought he was. I was very high on him last season and i was angry that we didn't draft him after he had a 20 assist game. I was on his jock, and I was even dumb enough to think that he would be our best player. Hopefully, we can find a way to draft Kyrie Irving.

Repeat after me slowly.

Second. Year. Player.

He's shown flashes obviously, but it takes some time to truly realize potential. What he did in New Orleans last year just proves he has talent, it will take time to become consistant.

Pacersalltheway10
03-08-2011, 06:52 PM
Collison is the most important to this teams success but the team is also most important to Collisons success. When either one isn't doing well they both fail. Whether it be the teams or DCs fault this time , I don't know and neither does anyone else but based on the players meeting I assume it's the team.

hoosierguy
03-08-2011, 09:42 PM
before everybody jumps on me, just answer how many more games we have won this year minus Troy Murphy?

The Pacers started 21-45 last season with Murphy getting significant minutes.

The New Jersey Nets released him. The Nets.

Does that answer your question?

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 11:34 PM
Who doesn't like point guards who can pass and run the offense? :laugh:

People who like Darren Collison?

cdash
03-08-2011, 11:43 PM
People who like Darren Collison?

AJ Price isn't much better, sadly.

pacer4ever
03-08-2011, 11:43 PM
AJ Price isn't much better, sadly.

ya we need a upgrade badly

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2011, 11:46 PM
AJ Price isn't much better, sadly.

Lately, I agree.

AJ has sucked.

And the sad part is, as bad as AJ has been, he has still been better than Collison.

vnzla81
03-08-2011, 11:52 PM
AJ Price isn't much better, sadly.

At least he is getting playing time for us to know that, "winning"

Sookie
03-08-2011, 11:59 PM
AJ was a lot better last season.

He's still got that whole "defense" thing going for him, and he doesn't do stupid ****, so he beats out Collison. But his shot has been terrible, and he goes through stretches of trying to do too much, which he never did at UConn, so I don't know what that's about.

They are both second year players though..and both of them have had really great games that showed they are plenty capable.

I do think people, myself included, have been a little harsh and a little too emotional about all of the guys. They are all going to go through their bad spouts and good spouts. We should just chill a bit, and let them grow up. Hopefully they turn things around with a win against Minny tomorrow, and they can start some momentum.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:02 AM
AJ was a lot better last season.

He's still got that whole "defense" thing going for him.

They are both second year players though..

No he doesnt. Our pg defense is horrible reguardless of player I know you like AJ but come on he gets lite up. He isnt athletic enoght at this level to stay with elite pgs. For god sake Jrue fouled him out 2 night.

Sookie
03-09-2011, 12:08 AM
No he doesnt. Our pg defense is horrible reguardless of player I know you like AJ but come on he gets lite up. He isnt athletic enoght at this level to stay with elite pgs. For god sake Jrue fouled him out 2 night.

I know you don't like him, not enough flash or whatever, but typically he is good defensively. He gets beat sometimes like all players do, because no PG is going to lock down another PG, and he's inconsistent about it (although consistently significantly better than DC) but he's always somewhere between average and good. And once he figures out how to hand check without getting caught by the refs, he'll be quite good.

The defense he played against Steve Nash was ridiculous.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:13 AM
I know you don't like him, not enough flash or whatever, but typically he is good defensively. He gets beat sometimes like all players do, because no PG is going to lock down another PG, and he's inconsistent about it (although consistently significantly better than DC) but he's always somewhere between average and good.

The defense he played against Steve Nash was ridiculous.

I do like him he is a nice guy. But he isnt as good as you make him out to be or he would of been a top 10 in the draft when he came out.He is a decent backup pg. His defense isnt good he tries but it isnt good. At least he tries some dont even try. (*DC*)

judicata
03-09-2011, 12:14 AM
I know you don't like him, not enough flash or whatever, but typically he is good defensively. He gets beat sometimes like all players do, because no PG is going to lock down another PG, and he's inconsistent about it (although consistently significantly better than DC) but he's always somewhere between average and good. And once he figures out how to hand check without getting caught by the refs, he'll be quite good.

The defense he played against Steve Nash was ridiculous.

I think p4e only likes George. Not that I blame him!

xIndyFan
03-09-2011, 12:14 AM
No he doesnt. Our pg defense is horrible reguardless of player I know you like AJ but come on he gets lite up. He isnt athletic enoght at this level to stay with elite pgs. For god sake Jrue fouled him out 2 night.

that comment is misleading. the pacers were fouling at the end of the game. that is why AJ fouled out.

using misleading facts to make your point only undercuts your arguement.

plus it makes you sound like a josh [or tyler] fanboy posting how bad tyler [or josh] is to support their guy.

AJ is an average PG right now. but that still makes him the best PG on the team.

edit: like it or not, AJ had the highest +/- on the team of +8. he is one of those guys that plays much better than he looks.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:21 AM
I think p4e only likes George. Not that I blame him!

Honestly I dont like anyone on our roster basketball wise besides Paul. I like Lance but he wont devlope he is a headcase I hope i am wrong.

I hope we clean house

Sookie
03-09-2011, 12:23 AM
I do like him he is a nice guy. But he isnt as good as you make him out to be or he would of been a top 10 in the draft when he came out.He is a decent backup pg. His defense isnt good he tries but it isnt good. At least he tries some dont even try. (*DC*)

No, I really don't. I'll say he's the best PG on the roster. I don't know that it's saying much, but that's the truth. I'll say he's a fantastic court general, which is something that often goes unnoticed. I'll say he's got a lot of intangibles and is one of the smartest guys on the team..once again, not a top 10 draft trait.

I just happen to really appreciate the solid "doesn't show up in the stat sheet" kinda guy. He's more talented than what he's shown this season. More able to make players, a better shooter ect..I have a feeling that'll come next season. Heck, it was there last season.

Probably with a bit of stability in playing time, a normal offensive system, and hopefully his health back fully back.

But right now, he's playing defense and he's not being stupid. That makes him better than our other PG choices. Even if he's shooting (Clanking) too much. The team tends to look better, as a whole, when he's in. And when he's running the team, the Pacers tend to make a run..instead of losing ground. He's also young, and deserves the chance to develop and learn from his mistakes as much as DC and Lance do.

AJ may not have their talent, but if either DC or Lance's mentality doesn't change (whether it be court vision or immaturity) Price will always be the better point guard. Might as well help them all grow, and play the one that's playing the best and helping the team at the end of games...even if the one that is playing the best isn't playing to what he's capable of.

Mackey said the rest of the Pacers team thinks Price should have a bigger role, I'd say that's a good enough reason to give him one.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:23 AM
that comment is misleading. the pacers were fouling at the end of the game. that is why AJ fouled out.

using misleading facts to make your point only undercuts your arguement.

plus it makes you sound like a josh [or tyler] fanboy posting how bad tyler [or josh] is to support their guy.

AJ is an average PG right now. but that still makes him the best PG on the team.

edit: like it or not, AJ had the highest +/- on the team of +8. he is one of those guys that plays much better than he looks.

:confused: I think thats what I said he is a decent to good backup. Just he isnt a good defender he is poor and DC is a level below along with Lance.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:26 AM
No, I really don't. I'll say he's the best PG on the roster. I don't know that it's saying much, but that's the truth. I'll say he's a fantastic court general, which is something that often goes unnoticed. I'll say he's got a lot of intangibles..once again, not a top 10 draft trait.

I just happen to really appreciate the solid "doesn't show up in the stat sheet" kinda guy. He's more talented than what he's shown this season. More able to make players, a better shooter ect..I have a feeling that'll come next season. Heck, it was there last season.

Probably with a bit of stability in playing time, a normal offensive system, and hopefully his health back fully back.

But right now, he's playing defense and he's not being stupid. That makes him better than our other PG choices. Even if he's shooting (Clanking) too much. The team tends to look better, as a whole, when he's in. And when he's running the team, the Pacers tend to make a run..instead of losing ground. He's also young, and deserves the chance to develop and learn from his mistakes as much as DC and Lance do.

AJ may not have their talent, but if either DC or Lance's mentality doesn't change (whether it be court vision or immaturity) Price will always be the better point guard. Might as well help them all grow, and play the one that's playing the best and helping the team at the end of games...even if the one that is playing the best isn't playing to what he's capable of.

Mackey said the rest of the Pacers team thinks Price should have a bigger role, I'd say that's a good enough reason to give him one.

the thing is they are gonna upgrade the pg spot AJ would be solid as our back up but he isnt a starter at the NBA level unless he has talent around him. He would be a good fit in Philly playing with Iggy.

Sookie
03-09-2011, 12:31 AM
:confused: I think thats what I said he is a decent to good backup. Just he isnt a good defender he is poor and DC is a level below along with Lance.

Go watch the way Price played defense on Steve Nash or Eddie House, and get back to me.

Holiday over powerd him a few times, that doesn't make him a poor defender, it makes him weaker than Holiday. Typically he's always got a hand in a guys face, and stirs his guy into help or doesn't get beat.

As I said, he's got the drawing fouls part down on offense, but he needs to learn how to get away with it on defense, before he can be consistently good defensively. He's had games where he's been an excellent defender, you can't take that away from him.

vnzla81
03-09-2011, 12:31 AM
I think we should go after Felton next year, like Mackey said, PF is not as bad as point guard and SG.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:44 AM
Go watch the way Price played defense on Steve Nash or Eddie House, and get back to me.

Holiday over powerd him a few times, that doesn't make him a poor defender, it makes him weaker than Holiday. Typically he's always got a hand in a guys face, and stirs his guy into help or doesn't get beat.

As I said, he's got the drawing fouls part down on offense, but he needs to learn how to get away with it on defense, before he can be consistently good defensively. He's had games where he's been an excellent defender, you can't take that away from him.

:wtf2: EDDIE HOUSE :lol2:

Steve was just off that game DC shut him down so did Lance:laugh:

Sookie
03-09-2011, 12:50 AM
:wtf2: EDDIE HOUSE :lol2:

Steve was just off that game DC shut him down so did Lance:laugh:

......

It wasn't about how many shots Steve missed...never mind..

Between this and "AI makes other players better" (as in Allen Iverson, not Iggy)

I just don't know kid...

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 12:54 AM
......

It wasn't about how many shots Steve missed...never mind..

Between this and "AI makes other players better" (as in Allen Iverson, not Iggy)

I just don't know kid...

AI didnt make others better? You cant be serious im talking about during his prime in philly. Yes he ball hogged but he was a great passer and made Dc44 look great. Thats like saying Kobe doesnt make his teammates better. Yes they ball hog sometimes but thier presence alone makes thier teammates better. Sure makes thier life easier with a talent like him on the team.

Pacergeek
03-09-2011, 09:53 AM
collison got benched last night. doesn't look good.

BRushWithDeath
03-09-2011, 10:16 AM
collison got benched last night. doesn't look good.

The fact that Collison sucks doesn't matter.

It is still a good trade.

flox
03-09-2011, 10:18 AM
I dislike Collison as much as the next guy, I thought he was overvalued and that he wasn't the answer, but even I had to admit that the trade was not a mistake.

And I'm probably one of the last Troy Murphy supporters from a Pacers side in the universe.

Lou Bega
03-09-2011, 10:31 AM
Murphy was the only expiring contract the organization got something of value for. We got to see what Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough were capable of this season. We also got to see the inconsistency of Darren Collison. Yes we picked up a bad contract in James Posey, but it was time for a change.

xIndyFan
03-09-2011, 11:36 AM
I dislike Collison as much as the next guy, I thought he was overvalued and that he wasn't the answer, but even I had to admit that the trade was not a mistake.

And I'm probably one of the last Troy Murphy supporters from a Pacers side in the universe.

:iagree:

not the only one, but one of a dwindling few :laugh:

aaronb
03-09-2011, 12:15 PM
Murphy was the only expiring contract the organization got something of value for. We got to see what Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough were capable of this season. We also got to see the inconsistency of Darren Collison. Yes we picked up a bad contract in James Posey, but it was time for a change.


Agreed,

Maybe we can use our cap space and Posey's expiring to facilitate another move? Hopefully that is the way we are going?

I just want the franchise to pick an actual direction and RUN WITH IT. This non committal direction just leads to more non committal direction.

Really?
03-09-2011, 01:15 PM
Honestly I dont like anyone on our roster basketball wise besides Paul. I like Lance but he wont devlope he is a headcase I hope i am wrong.

I hope we clean house

lol clean house and add who... How much better do you think this team could actually be as far as what is out there and who would be willing to come to Indianapolis...? Just wondering.

Only other thing to add is that AJ isn't a better pg than Collison, yeah AJ was fouling at the end of the game but how many did he get before then to help him get fouled out. AJ doesn't have to play as much time against the other teams starters as DC does.

Just a reminder DC is only in his 2nd year.. and confidence is a big thing about young players developing.. hopefully Vogel stays behind him and lets him know that it is okay to make mistakes and to go and find his game so that he can reach his full potential..

Not sure where that potential lies but I believe its higher than AJ's I also think(this has been said many times before) that AJ is a short 2 playing the 1 position.

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 01:22 PM
lol clean house and add who... How much better do you think this team could actually be as far as what is out there and who would be willing to come to Indianapolis...? Just wondering.

Only other thing to add is that AJ isn't a better pg than Collison, yeah AJ was fouling at the end of the game but how many did he get before then to help him get fouled out. AJ doesn't have to play as much time against the other teams starters as DC does.

Just a reminder DC is only in his 2nd year.. and confidence is a big thing about young players developing.. hopefully Vogel stays behind him and lets him know that it is okay to make mistakes and to go and find his game so that he can reach his full potential..

Not sure where that potential lies but I believe its higher than AJ's I also think(this has been said many times before) that AJ is a short 2 playing the 1 position.

If we trade for the player they would have to come here :laugh:

Then we bulid thought the draft and thoes players would come here. OKC is retaing its key players. They aren't bolting for bigger citys.


I only want to trade Granger and company if we get good value.

BPump33
03-09-2011, 01:24 PM
Not sure where that potential lies but I believe its higher than AJ's I also think(this has been said many times before) that AJ is a short 2 playing the 1 position.

Darren is a shorter 2 playing the 1 position. At least that's how it appears from his time here.

I like both guys, but right now no one on this team is getting it done. Tyler had a great game last night, but he also had a 1-11 performance last week. Right now the effort/execution is just not there and if we even want to think about the playoffs somebody on this team needs to step up and challenge everyone else. Who's it going to be?

aaronb
03-09-2011, 01:38 PM
If we trade for the player they would have to come here :laugh:

Then we bulid thought the draft and thoes players would come here. OKC is retaing its key players. They aren't bolting for bigger citys.


I only want to trade Granger and company if we get good value.


The way I see it the franchise has two distinct paths to contemplate this summer.

Path A) Do what you can to sign Z-bo and trade for OJ Mayo. See if you can use any additional cap space, and/or Posey's expiring deal to maybe bring in a new Point guard to share time with Collison. Go to war next year with an 8 man rotation looking something like

Hibbert
Z-Bo
Granger
Mayo
Felton(?)
Hansbro
George
Collison

Doing that probably makes this a 45-48 win club. Yet a club young enough to stay at that level for 3-5 years.

or

Path B) Slash and burn. Dangle Granger, Hibbert, Collison, Posey and Capspace and look for as many young prospects, assets and picks that you can get your hands on. Sure it will mean a couple more down seasons. But its the foundation up rebuild that honestly should have started 5 years ago.


Will management have the testicular fortitude to blaze a clear path?

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 02:07 PM
The way I see it the franchise has two distinct paths to contemplate this summer.

Path A) Do what you can to sign Z-bo and trade for OJ Mayo. See if you can use any additional cap space, and/or Posey's expiring deal to maybe bring in a new Point guard to share time with Collison. Go to war next year with an 8 man rotation looking something like

Hibbert
Z-Bo
Granger
Mayo
Felton(?)
Hansbro
Collison
George

Doing that probably makes this a 45-48 win club. Yet a club young enough to stay at that level for 3-5 years.

or

Path B) Slash and burn. Dangle Granger, Hibbert, Collison, Posey and Capspace and look for as many young prospects, assets and picks that you can get your hands on. Sure it will mean a couple more down seasons. But its the foundation up rebuild that honestly should have started 5 years ago.


Will management have the testicular fortitude to blaze a clear path?

You had Granger 2 times I put george because i figured thats what you meant.

Lou Bega
03-09-2011, 02:20 PM
Collison was the 9th or 10th PG taken in the 2009 draft. He had no pressure on him in his rookie season; he was CP3 backup. CP3 got hurt and he played well. He had a better cast of players in New Orleans. He gets traded to Indiana has the starting PG spot given to him and has failed. The Pacers do not have a lot of money invested in him. He is in a slump. He needs to turn things around and a benching may be the best thing for his career. Tinsley got benched for Kenny Anderson and played well after that under Carlile.

Really?
03-09-2011, 04:17 PM
If we trade for the player they would have to come here :laugh:

Then we bulid thought the draft and thoes players would come here. OKC is retaing its key players. They aren't bolting for bigger citys.


I only want to trade Granger and company if we get good value.

Yeah but everyone but george though... there is now way that we would get much value that would increase the team from where it is now. Trading is cool but the think is will they leave after their contract is over or will they resign.

And OKC has been able to improve their team by hitting it big in the draft... we have had our oppurtunites to have do the same thing but we always win a ton of games at the end of the year which put us out of position to to get one of the top players in the draft.


Darren is a shorter 2 playing the 1 position. At least that's how it appears from his time here.

I like both guys, but right now no one on this team is getting it done. Tyler had a great game last night, but he also had a 1-11 performance last week. Right now the effort/execution is just not there and if we even want to think about the playoffs somebody on this team needs to step up and challenge everyone else. Who's it going to be?

Yeah but I feel Darren has better decision making skills and makes smarter passes IMO, lol but yeah we really need people to step up or as I said before we will be the 8th pick instead of the 8th seed, what a sad story that would be...

P.S. the person that I would like to see step up more than anyone else is B Rush... Along with that Roy has just been looking so sloppy lately with all his shots and his d...

Really?
03-09-2011, 04:26 PM
Collison was the 9th or 10th PG taken in the 2009 draft. He had no pressure on him in his rookie season; he was CP3 backup. CP3 got hurt and he played well. He had a better cast of players in New Orleans. He gets traded to Indiana has the starting PG spot given to him and has failed. The Pacers do not have a lot of money invested in him. He is in a slump. He needs to turn things around and a benching may be the best thing for his career. Tinsley got benched for Kenny Anderson and played well after that under Carlile.

Was his supporting cast that much better in NO? hummm and he hasn't failed like u said just in a slump he has done good for us at times... I think maybe people expected to get that DC that was putting up crazy stats in NO..

Benching the kid will only lower his confidence more than it already is... Indy fans are so fickled

Pacersalltheway10
03-09-2011, 05:20 PM
where are the pick and rolls and pick and pops for DC? He works best with Tyler but they are in the games at different times for the most part. It also seems like Darren was being too unselfish lately. He is looking to get other player involved. But last nights game was a step in the right direction for collison. He was getting his shot back and was putting more "umph" on passes last night. I do think the Lance being put in the rotation has caused part of a problem for Collison. Lance usually comes in with Tyler and DC goes out at that time. DC and Tyler don't play together often right now like they did earlier in the season.

ilive4sports
03-09-2011, 05:26 PM
Was his supporting cast that much better in NO? hummm and he hasn't failed like u said just in a slump he has done good for us at times... I think maybe people expected to get that DC that was putting up crazy stats in NO..

Benching the kid will only lower his confidence more than it already is... Indy fans are so fickled

The biggest thing NO had that we don't is David West. They ran the PnR very well together and that was huge for Collison.

There is no way this was a mistake to trade for him. At worst we have a good back up PG who will be able to change the pace of the game when he comes in. I don't think he should be benched just yet.

I would like to see a tweak in the line up though. I want to see:
Collison
George
Granger
Hansbrough
Hibbert

George and Hans will help Collison more than McBob and Rush do. His best PnR partner will be in the game with him and I like George more than Rush because he just makes more plays. I know the first thing people are going to say is where is the second unit going to get points from? AJ can score, Jones can score, Rush will have more opportunities to score (whether he will take them or not, i dont know), McBob will have more opportunities like Rush.

Eleazar
03-09-2011, 06:17 PM
The only possible mistake we made in trading Murphy for Collison is possibly overestimating how good he is. Other than that there was no mistake, it is highly unlikely we could have gotten better value for Murphy. Collison still has a chance to be a good starter, just if it happens it is going to take longer than we hoped.

Pacersalltheway10
03-09-2011, 07:36 PM
Jesus H.. wtf is wrong with some folks on here. DC is a quality pg, he may only turnout to be a backup point gaurd but he would be a very good one to have.

im just flippin sick of pacer fans bashing every pacer player they can.

Roy - he is "garbage" and making fans sick on here
DC - shoulda kept murphy
Granger - trade him for peanuts


im waiting for Hansbro, Stephenson, and McBob to be the next guys everyone bashes on.

this is a young f'ing team, were not gonna win 60 games, and its gonna take time for the team to get better.

we cant just trade every player b/c they are not a superstar. 60 games into a players first season with this team were ready to say it was a mistake trading for him.. we all know Obrien runs a sh*tty offense for pg's to learn from. collison avg'd 19 and 9 as a rookie next season.

Lets get an established veteran coach in here first then re-evaluate the young players.

This is what i've been saying for the past season. People just want something to complain about. POTY.

ilive4sports
03-09-2011, 08:33 PM
I'm starting to think Coach Vogel might be reading my posts... If so, CHANGE THE DEFENSIVE SYSTEM!!!

pacer4ever
03-09-2011, 08:37 PM
The biggest thing NO had that we don't is David West. They ran the PnR very well together and that was huge for Collison.

There is no way this was a mistake to trade for him. At worst we have a good back up PG who will be able to change the pace of the game when he comes in. I don't think he should be benched just yet.

I would like to see a tweak in the line up though. I want to see:
Collison
George
Granger
Hansbrough
Hibbert

George and Hans will help Collison more than McBob and Rush do. His best PnR partner will be in the game with him and I like George more than Rush because he just makes more plays. I know the first thing people are going to say is where is the second unit going to get points from? AJ can score, Jones can score, Rush will have more opportunities to score (whether he will take them or not, i dont know), McBob will have more opportunities like Rush.

Frank?

Doddage
03-09-2011, 08:39 PM
Murphy was the only expiring contract the organization got something of value for. We got to see what Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough were capable of this season. We also got to see the inconsistency of Darren Collison. Yes we picked up a bad contract in James Posey, but it was time for a change.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nIqpigODdXw/TPT8djVXPTI/AAAAAAAABAw/XH2bgzOmBwE/s320/lou%2Bbega.jpg