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View Full Version : Did this comment by Danny make anyone else want to slap him upside the head?



jcouts
03-06-2011, 12:29 PM
"Sometimes we can lose our mental focus and get off track a little bit," forward Danny Granger said. "I think that's where some of the older guys have to try to get us back on track."

This was stated sometime after last night's game.

Leadership Void Strikes Hard (http://www.indystar.com/article/20110306/SPORTS04/103060400/1062/SPORTS04/Notebook-Leadership-void-strikes-hard)

Seriously? "some of the older guys?" Um, like who?

Am I the only one reading this as if Danny's dodging owning up to a leadership role? He's the only all star on the squad, the only player to have played in the Olympics, and he's deflecting owning up to leadership to "some of the older guys"?

I'd really like to tell him, "Wake up Danny, you are one of the older guys."

If that's his mindset, I hear the trading block calling his name.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 12:33 PM
I'm assuming he does consider himself to be one of the older guys. He's been here for 6 years.

croz24
03-06-2011, 12:39 PM
danny makes a lot of comments that have me scratching my head

grace
03-06-2011, 12:41 PM
There are five other guys on the team older than Danny (although TJ is only 27 days older). However, since Danny is the team captain I would hope he's doing everything he can to get the players back on track. If not he certainly shouldn't be the captain and probably shouldn't be on the team.

rexnom
03-06-2011, 12:43 PM
Wow. TJ is only 27 days older.

dal9
03-06-2011, 12:47 PM
ya, he means himself inclusive

Sookie
03-06-2011, 12:53 PM
No, but this comment makes me feel better about Vogel.

"We're just not getting it done," Pacers interim coach Frank Vogel said. "I'm not doing a good enough job coaching this team and our players are not doing a good enough job coming ready to play."

It's good that they are pissed, that they are trying to work things out. Remember a few months ago when Larry Bird was upset because after being blown out, the guys were more worried about going to Dinner?

Strummer
03-06-2011, 12:58 PM
That's what I would want him to say. He and the other vets need to show the way for the younger guys. Danny understands that you can't put it all on the coaches. Good for Danny.

Pacer Fan
03-06-2011, 01:09 PM
That's what I would want him to say. He and the other vets need to show the way for the younger guys. Danny understands that you can't put it all on the coaches. Good for Danny.

totally agree with you, he didn't exclude himself from that comment.

croz24
03-06-2011, 01:18 PM
however, ever since the detroit game these guys have been talking the talk...

PacerDude
03-06-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't need comments from him to make me want to slap him.

Watching him play defense - no ........... on defense (because he certainly doesn't play it) is enough.

That said - he's a 6 year player, one of the highest paid (if not the ...) and all that crapola. HE should be taking that role. And it should be done by his play on the court. Which would require him to give an effort on defense. Which brings me back to Square One.

Scot Pollard
03-06-2011, 02:25 PM
He says the right things and speaks his mind.

He's a good player and he needs to guide the younger players in the right direction.

Major Cold
03-06-2011, 02:26 PM
Here goatie goatie goatie. Danny GRANGER... PD's scapegoat since the firing of JOB.

idioteque
03-06-2011, 04:30 PM
Trade him for Millsap in the offseason.

O'Braindead
03-06-2011, 04:34 PM
Here goatie goatie goatie. Danny GRANGER... PD's scapegoat since the firing of JOB.

I don't see it that way at all. Besides a few people who just like to complain, we still want Danny. We want to see him play harder and all of that, but the problem is a lot more about talent than it is about Danny.

idioteque
03-06-2011, 04:38 PM
When Danny first came into the league, he played with a lot of passion and there was so much positive energy surrounding him. He also played defense.

Ever since he's gotten paid, he's turned into your average despondent, I got my money NBA player. He'll play defense in the last five minutes of the game, but other than that he slacks off on what constitutes 50% of the game in basketball. He doesn't even pass quite as well as he used to, he's basically devolved into the worst kind of "asset," that of a volume shooter. That may work with fans in some cities, but Indiana basketball fans are smarter than that and expect more from Danny.

Either light a fire under his *** or trade him this offseason. His value as of now is inflated and could get us something good in return. Just don't make the same mistake you made with JO and trade him three years too late.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 04:44 PM
I don't need comments from him to make me want to slap him.

Watching him play defense - no ........... on defense (because he certainly doesn't play it) is enough.

That said - he's a 6 year player, one of the highest paid (if not the ...) and all that crapola. HE should be taking that role. And it should be done by his play on the court. Which would require him to give an effort on defense. Which brings me back to Square One.

Just who exactly on this team is playing defense?

And Danny is talking about himself in that quote. Taking it any other way is foolish.

Right now our problems don't have to do with any player. It has to do with youth and schemes. Youth leads to inconsistency which is exactly where Danny is right about the older guys needing to get this team back on track. He was clearly trying to do so last night. And the youth has led to very little offensive sets being executed. It's not just Collison either. Last night I remember we went to Hibbert right away and he was supposed to feed the ball to someone cutting, but the guy never came through. Ultimately it led to a bad shot. And our defense's problem is too much help. They all do it, Danny included. Singling out Danny's bad defense is a joke. He's doing what the defense is designed to do.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 04:47 PM
When Danny first came into the league, he played with a lot of passion and there was so much positive energy surrounding him. He also played defense.

Ever since he's gotten paid, he's turned into your average despondent, I got my money NBA player. He'll play defense in the last five minutes of the game, but other than that he slacks off on what constitutes 50% of the game in basketball. He doesn't even pass quite as well as he used to, he's basically devolved into the worst kind of "asset," that of a volume shooter. That may work with fans in some cities, but Indiana basketball fans are smarter than that and expect more from Danny.

Either light a fire under his *** or trade him this offseason. His value as of now is inflated and could get us something good in return. Just don't make the same mistake you made with JO and trade him three years too late.

This is a bunch of bull. To say Danny doesn't play with passion is untrue. Why do you think he goes off on guys when they miss a spot. Because he wants to win. He plays defense the way our team is designed to play it. It is a flawed system.

I'm glad Vogel is taking some responsibility. But he really needs to change this defense. We help way too much and every team in the league knows this. Until it changes we will see a lot of the same.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 04:53 PM
This is a bunch of bull. To say Danny doesn't play with passion is untrue. Why do you think he goes off on guys when they miss a spot. Because he wants to win. He plays defense the way our team is designed to play it. It is a flawed system.

I'm glad Vogel is taking some responsibility. But he really needs to change this defense. We help way too much and every team in the league knows this. Until it changes we will see a lot of the same.

The defense is designed to loaf?

idioteque
03-06-2011, 04:57 PM
This is a bunch of bull. To say Danny doesn't play with passion is untrue. Why do you think he goes off on guys when they miss a spot. Because he wants to win. He plays defense the way our team is designed to play it. It is a flawed system.

I'm glad Vogel is taking some responsibility. But he really needs to change this defense. We help way too much and every team in the league knows this. Until it changes we will see a lot of the same.

Right, that explains how he morphs from defense only moderately better than Troy's to DPOY-level defense the last five minutes of close games. There were years under Jim where Danny played pretty good individual defense, it is nothing on the system.

Look, I want Granger to succeed here, but if his defense isn't demonstrably better by the All-Star break next year, forget it. If you want to take a calculated risk and get more value for him this offseason, trade him now. But for the love of God don't want years and years and let this fester like we did with JO.

The other alternative is to get a player just as good or better than Danny to pair with him and see what happens. Easier said than done.

Rogco
03-06-2011, 05:01 PM
There are five other guys on the team older than Danny (although TJ is only 27 days older). However, since Danny is the team captain I would hope he's doing everything he can to get the players back on track. If not he certainly shouldn't be the captain and probably shouldn't be on the team.

I wish he'd put more effort into his defense.

Rogco
03-06-2011, 05:04 PM
This is a bunch of bull. To say Danny doesn't play with passion is untrue. Why do you think he goes off on guys when they miss a spot. Because he wants to win. He plays defense the way our team is designed to play it. It is a flawed system.

I'm glad Vogel is taking some responsibility. But he really needs to change this defense. We help way too much and every team in the league knows this. Until it changes we will see a lot of the same.

I felt he was going off on people to cover up his own short comings and mistakes he made. I've seen him yell at people when it sure seems he's the one who effed up, especially half-assing through a screen.

PR07
03-06-2011, 05:17 PM
I don't really see the problem with the comment. That is where veteran leadership should come into play, and I assume he's including himself in that group along with probably Foster, Dunleavy, Posey, and Ford.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 05:24 PM
I was asked by Mike Wells to tell you all that Granger was referring to himself along with the other veteran players.

Can't say I'm surprised, but it's nice to avoid any possible misunderstanding. Thanks, Mike.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 05:26 PM
The defense is designed to loaf?

Yes. Look at it. The whole team focuses on making sure players don't get into the lane leaving players open for jump shots.

It often goes like this. Player X tries getting into the lane or passes into the post, more often than not we collapse around him, pass outside to open man who either takes a shot or makes a pass to another open player.

We don't just help with one player, we help with multiple guys. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if its just one guy helping, but its not. You will see Danny and McRoberts slide over to help Hibbert, or a post player and a wing slide over to help Collison when a guy drives. This also is killing our rebounding now because our guys are out of position to box their man out. Our defensive system is a joke right now and doesn't emphasize one on one defense.

Every team we play seems to have great ball movement. Utah had 24 assists and shot 44%. Phoenix had 29 assists and shot 44%, Dallas had 26 assists and shot 52%, OKC had 26 assists and shot 48%, Houston had 23 and shot 45%.

The best defensive game we have played under Vogel is the game against Portland. They only had 17 assists. They also shot 36%. Why? Because of less open shots.

If the system would emphasize more one on one defense, holding players more accountable for individual match ups, less switches, way less help, especially only sending one player to help our defense would be much better. Rush, Danny and George can play great individual defense. Collison not so much, but we have to be smarter when we are helping him. Its exactly why Grant Hill went off on us. Not because of Danny's lack of defense, but because our system calls for him to help way too much. It's not like the only opposing player going off on us is matched up against Danny. Its guys at multiple positions each game. They are getting open shots because of our defense.

Now I'm not saying Danny is playing great defense, because he's not. He does need to put more effort into it. BUT that is a secondary problem. At the end of games the whole team typically plays better individual defense. Collison often becomes a much better lock down guy toward the end of the game. It comes out of no where. Why? Because at the end of games our defense asks more from the individual than from the team.

The defense was broken before Vogel took over and will take longer to fix than the offense. In November when we were playing great defense,there was more emphasis on one on one defense and holding each individual accountable. As the season went on we got away from this. To fix this we need practice time and we just don't have it right now. Its going to take a training camp to change this most likely.

Kaufman
03-06-2011, 06:04 PM
- i appreciate mike wells, but i do find that comment a head scratcher. danny should be taking every bit of the blame and criticism, its not about "older guys" he is the older guy now.

- danny granger has been under the fire since last year. not since o'b took off

- danny's comment is as idiotic as the comments he was making this summer with team usa

IndyPacer
03-06-2011, 06:27 PM
I'm almost certain that he's including himself in that comment. If not, that would be distrubing.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 06:29 PM
Wells said that Danny is including himself as one of the "older guys"

Hicks
03-06-2011, 06:41 PM
- i appreciate mike wells, but i do find that comment a head scratcher. danny should be taking every bit of the blame and criticism, its not about "older guys" he is the older guy now.

I don't understand how it could be a head scratcher. He just clarified that when Danny said what is quoted on page one, he was including himself in that statement, as opposed to pointing a finger at others (Jeff, Posey, TJ).



- danny's comment is as idiotic as the comments he was making this summer with team usa

What comments? The one about someplace stinking? How on Earth could this be as bad as that?

Kaufman
03-06-2011, 06:43 PM
what i'm saying is that he should not be trying to spread it around amongst other guys, among himself. posey just joined. tj ford and foster are benchwarmer and end of bencher. danny isn't one of the older guys, he IS the older guy.

to some degree, i don't think there is much danny can do to get me back at this point though, so in fairness to him, i am probably being overcritical.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 06:44 PM
It's probably hard for Danny to put a lot of effort into defense when he's expected to carry such a heavy offensive load.

Kaufman
03-06-2011, 06:45 PM
What comments? The one about someplace stinking? How on Earth could this be as bad as that?

Like I said, I'm probably being overcritical here.

But as far as the older guys comment, I didn't like it myself, clarification or not.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 06:46 PM
You are definitely just being overcritical here.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 06:48 PM
what i'm saying is that he should not be trying to spread it around amongst other guys, among himself. posey just joined. tj ford and foster are benchwarmer and end of bencher. danny isn't one of the older guys, he IS the older guy.

to some degree, i don't think there is much danny can do to get me back at this point though, so in fairness to him, i am probably being overcritical.

I agree on TJ and Posey, but not on Foster. He's not a benchwarmer, he's the backup center and he plays every game.

throwbackpacer
03-06-2011, 06:50 PM
I am frustrated by the leadership(or lack thereof) of danny. i think hibbert might turn out to be a better leader eventually, but i think we are and will flounder until either we get a leader or danny decides to really become one.

Kaufman
03-06-2011, 06:51 PM
You are definitely just being overcritical here.

thanks for the echo.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 06:52 PM
And I don't think Danny is specifically referring to on court play. He says "mental focus." Whether TJ or Posey are playing or not, its definitely something they can help the young guys with.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 07:16 PM
There is absolutely no way to blame any defensive system for a lack of effort. None at all.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 07:25 PM
There is absolutely no way to blame any defensive system for a lack of effort. None at all.

Both are legitimate problems.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 07:27 PM
There is absolutely no way to blame any defensive system for a lack of effort. None at all.

This lack of effort is overstated too. He's doing exactly what the system wants him to do. Does he take plays off? Yes. Every player does. But he is doing what the system is designed to do. In imawhat's breakdown of the game tying three Hill made Danny was sagging off Hill not in lack of effort, but because thats what our system is telling him to do.

look at this picture:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j66/imawhat/Move%20to%20LA/DSC_1284.jpg

Danny is not the only person sagging of his man. What you can't see in this picture is Dudley standing wide open at the top of the lane. Why? Because Rush sagged off of him just as much as Danny did Hill. Even if Danny was in Hill's face, Dudley is wide open for three as well. And he was on fire that game too.

Trophy
03-06-2011, 07:36 PM
He's a good defender when it's needed most.

He was playing great, consistent defense earlier in the season and it looked like it was spreading through out the team, but that didn't last long.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 07:53 PM
This lack of effort is overstated too. He's doing exactly what the system wants him to do. Does he take plays off? Yes. Every player does. But he is doing what the system is designed to do. In imawhat's breakdown of the game tying three Hill made Danny was sagging off Hill not in lack of effort, but because thats what our system is telling him to do.

How is it overstated? He doesn't take plays off defensively. He takes quarters off, games off, months off.

That play that you are using to prove your point was in the last minute of a 3 point game. If you can't find it in yourself to give maximum effort in that situation, you don't have a pulse.

If he was Mike Dunleavy, his defensive problems would not be as big of deal. We know Mike can't defend. He simply physically is not capable at the NBA level.

With Danny Granger, he is most definitely capable. He has the ability to be an All-NBA type of defender. He simply chooses not be. Which is far worse than lacking the capability, in my opinion.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, I am saying that using a system's flaws to apologize for a lack of effort, is trying too hard to be apologetic.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 07:59 PM
Saying he takes months off is exactly why I say your overstating his lack of effort. I said in earlier posts that he needs to put in more effort.

I used that play as an example because I had the pictures readily available. If I was able to record other games where I see the EXACT same thing over and over I would have used another one.

No one in this defensive system can be an all NBA defender because its not about individual defense whatsoever. His lack of effort isn't nearly as big of a problem as the system because even if Danny is giving 110%, other guys are still going to be open.

SoupIsGood
03-06-2011, 08:26 PM
When Danny first came into the league, he played with a lot of passion and there was so much positive energy surrounding him. He also played defense.

Ever since he's gotten paid, he's turned into your average despondent, I got my money NBA player. He'll play defense in the last five minutes of the game, but other than that he slacks off on what constitutes 50% of the game in basketball. He doesn't even pass quite as well as he used to, he's basically devolved into the worst kind of "asset," that of a volume shooter. That may work with fans in some cities, but Indiana basketball fans are smarter than that and expect more from Danny.

Either light a fire under his *** or trade him this offseason. His value as of now is inflated and could get us something good in return. Just don't make the same mistake you made with JO and trade him three years too late.

Some of this is likely the result of playing on an untalented losing team for years and years. Do you remember Pierce's reputation during Boston's string of crap years? I've always been a fan but you had people calling him a ballhog, selfish, and generally making him sound like a player you can't win with. But then some real talent comes to town and people can't stop singing his praises.

Danny is human. The Pacers have been consistently crappy and we've leaned on him heavily and probably have expected too much out of him. I'm sure he still tries hard to get pumped up before games but there's only so much fuel in that tank. Get Danny his KG, Ray Allen, and Rondo and you'll see a different Danny.

Right now he's working at the equivalent of an ineffecient, poorly managed company. Even the best workers will be set back by the tension, frustration, and overall low morale of such a place. (Not to mention he's endured the equivalent of a jackass blowhard boss, JOB.) I think you would see this out of most players of Danny's level. It takes a nearly superhuman Wade-type player to shoulder a losing team's burden without losing a few steps. (And even then Wade's injuries went up in those years.)

Sookie
03-06-2011, 08:35 PM
It's really really hard to have to carry so much weight offensively and then put a lot of effort into defense.

Danny should be better than he is. But he's only human, and he has to do a lot for this team. He's gotta take his breaks somewhere.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 08:38 PM
It's really really hard to have to carry so much weight offensively and then put a lot of effort into defense.

Danny should be better than he is. But he's only human, and he has to do a lot for this team. He's gotta take his breaks somewhere.

This is definitely a huge factor. And it won't get fixed until next year at the soonest and thats dependent on who comes here via FA. Pierce is a great example of this too.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 08:39 PM
Saying he takes months off is exactly why I say your overstating his lack of effort. I said in earlier posts that he needs to put in more effort.

I used that play as an example because I had the pictures readily available. If I was able to record other games where I see the EXACT same thing over and over I would have used another one.

No one in this defensive system can be an all NBA defender because its not about individual defense whatsoever. His lack of effort isn't nearly as big of a problem as the system because even if Danny is giving 110%, other guys are still going to be open.

He took December, January, and February off. He's off to a bad start in March.

Months.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 08:40 PM
It's really really hard to have to carry so much weight offensively and then put a lot of effort into defense.

Danny should be better than he is. But he's only human, and he has to do a lot for this team. He's gotta take his breaks somewhere.

He tries to take too much of the offensive weight. Often to the detriment of the team.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 08:46 PM
He tries to take too much of the offensive weight. Often to the detriment of the team.

Really? Since Vogel took over he hasn't been a chucker at all. He has averaged 14 shots a game. How is that taking too much of the offensive weight for your teams number one option? He's even shooting 44%. Not great, but it isn't terrible considering he is a shooter more than a attack the rim type player (which he has most definitely done more since Vogel's takeover).

He has not taken off every game in December-February. Stop kidding yourself.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 08:46 PM
He tries to take too much of the offensive weight. Often to the detriment of the team.

There's no one else on the team that can consistently score. They're either too young to depend on or not talented enough to depend on. He's forced to play in a way that he's not that great at.

I know everyone wants to see him go to the basket. I really don't. I don't think he's explosive and I don't think he's a great ball handler.

He's a great shooter. And he's big for an SF, so I want to post him up (and he needs to get better at that) and run some plays for him to run off screens (so uh..someone needs to actually screen...) to get good shots.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 08:50 PM
Its funny that Danny gets so much hate, when his lack of effort on defense is the smallest problem this team even has.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 08:59 PM
Its funny that Danny gets so much hate, when his lack of effort on defense is the smallest problem this team even has.

It is the smallest problem this team has? The fact that their best player, their captain, their supposed leader can't be bothered to give full effort on one end of the court?

Call me old fashioned, but I'd call that a pretty big ****ing problem.

What exactly do you think the actual serious problems are?

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 09:05 PM
It is the smallest problem this team has? The fact that their best player, their captain, their supposed leader can't be bothered to give full effort on one end of the court?

Call me old fashioned, but I'd call that a pretty big ****ing problem.

What exactly do you think the actual serious problems are?

Youth and inconsistency is the biggest one. The defensive system is broken. Offense still needs work. Our talent is young so its not as good as it can/will be.

Danny not giving 110% on defense is not losing us games. Things mentioned above are.

MagicRat
03-07-2011, 12:55 AM
Did this comment by Danny make anyone else want to slap him upside the head?

Good thing he has a hardhat.....
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/grangineer.jpg

Taterhead
03-07-2011, 04:58 AM
It doesn't bother me one bit. It's true. He's one of them. I've been saying he hasn't been doing his job for months, so I am glad he at least sees it the same way.

Cactus Jax
03-07-2011, 08:34 AM
Tyler is 10x more of a chucker than Danny is, and he really has no right to be one. The problem with the starting line-up is well documented, but if Danny isn't off to a hot start and there's a physical guy defending Hibbert then the whole system is designed to fail from the start. DC is becoming TJ like in penetrating and throwing up wild shots, Rush is scared to shoot and isnt that great of a shooter anyway except maybe in the 3pt corners, and McRoberts is a complete liability unless he's dunking.

As far as Danny is concerned with this, yes he has to place such an emphasis on playing great offense that his defense isn't as good as it could be most the game. He'd be out in 3-4 minutes if he put maximum effort offensively and defensively, most the guys he guards are the best scorers on their teams or if they're not, it's designed so that he doubles off his man as has been illustrated and that leads to open shots.

My personal feeling on fixing the starting line-up is to add AJ to the starting line-up for now until Collison stops sucking, the team can't rely on him coming around all of a sudden, he's a 2nd year player he's going to struggle from time to time and needs his time on the bench at some points. DC can still finish games and start them once his offense/defense are back to a normal state of mind, but he's a really bad weakness when Danny is out there.

BillS
03-07-2011, 08:36 AM
What exactly do you think the actual serious problems are?

Honestly? Being able to hit the water dropping a basketball out of a boat.

The defense has been horrible recently, but you aren't going to beat anyone with your first quarter shooting hovering between 9% (at one point v OKC) and 24% (Houston).

Might be shot selection, might be defenses countering our simple offense, might be hesitation in the post, might just be a shooting slump. Whatever it is, it is just as important to get fixed.

Will Galen
03-07-2011, 10:04 AM
Ever since he's gotten paid, he's turned into your average despondent, I got my money NBA player.

Didn't happen then. Remember when he didn't show up for the draft party, and there were rumors he was getting traded? I think his attitude changed then. Before that he seemed driven to get better, but after that his drive seemed to have disappeared.

I think it has something to do with Bird getting Danny on board with the Pacers 3 year plan, and then those rumors came out about trading him for Favors. I think Danny believed the rumors and felt like he was getting stabbed in the back.