PDA

View Full Version : Odd Thoughts: Let?s take a breath



RoboHicks
03-06-2011, 04:50 AM
Odd Thoughts: Let's take a breath
Written by Peck

Link (http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/?p=434)

Let’s take care of this right up front, none of us that were ready for Jim O’Brien to be fired (in some of our cases years ago) ever said that him leaving would turn this ball club into a full fledged contender.

What has happened so far in some ways was to be expected, we are beating sub .500% teams (for the most part Houston playing in the west has probably a worse record than they deserve) and up until recently we were competing with the few above .500% teams that we have played since the change in coaching.

Also while I am loathe to make excuses for the guys I will say that there are three things that have occurred that have changed the dynamics of the team over the past couple of weeks.

Mike Dunleavy was injured, yes everybody’s favorite whipping boy (I’ll admit that I join in on this on occasion) has shown that he is more valuable than many of us may have suspected. Frank also injected Brandon Rush into the starting spot even though just a few games prior to that he was getting very limited min. We’ll talk more about this in a minute.

The O.J. Mayo for Josh McRoberts trade went public. Josh seems to have overcome this although I do believe for the first couple of games he didn’t seem all there, but that could have just been my perception. But at the end of the day a player who thought that he would sign his new contract with his hometown team found out he was going to be dealt, sorry but that might affect chemistry. It might not as well, but we’ll never know.

Lance Stevenson has been inserted into the lineup. Now while he has done superbly, his min. are not coming at the cost of Mike’s. He is getting some of his time at the point guard spot and thus is taking time away from A.J. & Darren Collison. Again, team chemistry issues might be at play here.

Any three of these things could be having an impact on the team. However there are other things at play as well.

First and foremost two of the previous teams that we have played on this trip are actual contenders for the Western Conference finals. In other words there is a chance that one of the two of them might play in the NBA finals (I doubt it but*there is*a chance). So in other words they are just better than us.

It sucks, nobody likes to admit that but it is the truth.

So I’m not going to sweat bullets about losing to those teams because at the end of the day you supposed to lose and as long as you competed you really can’t expect much more. *They competed vs. the Mavericks but did not do so swell vs. the Thunder.

The Houston game is another story though. There certainly was a lack of passion and a lack of organization. Long trip, tough road games, circumstances beyond your control, etc. None of that really matters. You still have to lace them up and compete.

Look the good Pacers teams of the 90’s would often times lay an egg, it happens. Slick used to say that you could expect 4-5 of these types a game every year from even good teams.

But this seemed a little different. I can’t tell you exactly what it was I saw but there were some issues that seemed to make me believe that the on court chemistry was disrupted in some fashion.

From reading Mike Wells tweets from the post game area it sounds like chemistry is being discussed by the players themselves.

So while they talk amongst themselves let us have our own conversation.

Let me get all of the clichés out of the way right now.

We are a young team so inconsistency is going to be an issue.

We don’t have a batman and at best we might have the substitute Robin (not even good enough to be the real Robin).

We need a better power forward.

Lance isn’t a point guard.

Tyler is better than Josh and should start.

Josh is better than Tyler and he should be more aggressive with his own shot.

Brandon Rush is a useless turd.

Brandon Rush is the best defender on our team and if everyone else would just hit their shots his lack of offense wouldn’t be so noticeable.

Roy Hibbert is one of the best young centers today.

Roy Hibbert is a sack of crap.

I’m sure there are about 100 other things that have been thrown out here on the digest lately but we’ll just go with these for now. The sad thing is that all of the above have a basis in truth, but as always they don’t tell the whole story.

So instead of clichés let’s see if we can’t pin point some of the problems that our club has been facing lately.

Let’s just start right at the top. Danny Granger is our best player and that really bothers a lot of people and to a point they are correct in pointing out that if he is your best player you probably overall are not going to be a great team, in particular if he is far and away your best player.

I think Danny right now is suffering from chronic losing fatigue syndrome. I think he is gassed from playing for two solid years and I think he is suffering from some fans bloated expectations of him.

Danny is not now*nor will he ever be LeBron James. Danny is not a top tier*level talent in the Association. That doesn’t mean he is a bottom tier one either but I think some fans expect him to take the ball at the top of the key at the end of the game and do some fancy juke move to get to the basket and score at will. That’s not his game nor should it be expected of him. He is basically a decent shooter who can get to the basket but often times lacks the dribbling ability to get there in traffic.

Now it is not unreasonable though for people to question him about his sometimes lackadaisical defense. He can be a lock down defender when he wants to be and that is what really frustrates many people is the fact that more often than not he does not want to do that.

However in all fairness to Danny he is doing all of this with basically a new cast all around him. Not a single starter in the game tonight started every game with him last season. Remember Roy was still getting pulled for matchup issues and Josh didn’t even play half of the year, Darren was in N.O. and Brandon split time with Mike.

Consistency has not been there for him.

There has been a lot of talk about moving Danny on the Digest*and I just want to add a couple of things about that. Sure if a no brain trade falls in your lap (say Orlando wants to dump Dwight Howard)*you take it. But Danny is still young and most likely whatever you get back for him will not be anywhere near the talent that he is. Why not add talent with him either via trade, free agency or maybe even home grown (Paul, Lance, etc.) and build a team that way.

Darren Collison has got to remove his cranium from his anal cavity. Frankly over the past three games if you ask me to single out the one giant deficiency in our team I would firmly point the finger or probably give the finger to our starting point guard. He is in a shooting slump, it happens so I’m not going to bag him on that. But his defense has been abysmal, his passing has been lazy and is it my imagination or is he getting worse about ball control? Every minute he has been on the floor usually my blood pressure has spiked. To make matters worse not only is he not scoring now and allowing his man to pretty much score at will his partner in crime has contributed nothing to the offensive cause to help the team either.

When your starting back court provides you with*8 whole points of offense in a game should it come as a surprise to anyone that your bench is always having to come in try and play catch up?

I’ll say that again because it merits repeating. Our starting guard combination provided 8 points of offense between the two of them to go along with two assists. Oh by the way the two assists were both Brandon Rush’s.

If Frank needs to make a change, and frankly (no pun intended) if we suffer a loss to Philly something will need to change, I suggest that instead of doing what I’m sure he will feel pressured to do and start Tyler over Josh. He should bench both guards and start A.J. and Paul, however realistically he won’t bench Collison as they are hoping he is the long term answer at the point (at this*time I am not willing to say that myself) but he needs to move Brandon to the bench and start either Dahntay or Paul. I’d start Paul but if he wants to leave him with the second unit so be it.

Our starters are pretty much zombies to start off the game and honestly an injection of energy would be a good thing.

Josh is the only starter right now I feel who is giving you consistent play night in and night out. It’s not spectacular or anything but it is good and consistent. He is usually not the reason we start off slow.

Roy, Roy, Roy…. I don’t even know what to say about him. About any center that has any form of lower body strength just pushes him off of the blocks and makes it so that he can’t get into position. To top that off teams are coming at him early with the double team and Roy is being very slow in deciding what to do with the ball and often times when he does decide to do something with it he usually ends up throwing up a hook shot that has almost no hope of going in. This is where Dunleavy not being here is hurting. Mike moves without the ball so his man is not able to slack off of him and double Roy and often times Mike is moving towards the basket and Roy hits him for a shot or if nothing else it give him someone to throw the ball to without having to chuck it over two players who are just hovering around him.

I like Roy’s work ethic, but this off season he has got to work on some form of body strength and control. He did a magnificent job last year of being more agile and faster, now add some strength to the mixture and next year hopefully will be better.

I’ve changed my mind, I’m not going to do every player. This has already gone longer than I wanted and I’m afraid of jumbling it up even more than I have already.

I want to end with this.

While I am not happy with losing, never have been never will be, I will say that I am happy knowing that the players that are losing now are players who I feel will be part of the club for the foreseeable future and the time on the floor (win or lose) is a learning experience. Reggie and company did not play one year and then go to the Eastern Conference finals. No there were many years of struggling and first round exits and frustration that everybody (players and fans alike) had to go through. Well while I am not saying that we have the ingrediants yet to be like that team I think we really are now on the real process of seeing what we have on this team. We may have to change some things, we may have to add some things and at the end we may just have to be patient with some things, but it is important to note that we are now fully in the process of doing this. Which up until slightly more than a month ago we were not.

Back to Indy to face the 76ers.


http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs16/f/2007/151/2/1/Note_to_self__just_breathe_by_Holly2007.jpg

http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png (http://www.addtoany.com/share_save)

Hoop
03-06-2011, 05:26 AM
Excellent post/article!

If I had the ability to make a post that coherent and express my opinion about our resent troubles the well, it would read like this one.

PaceBalls
03-06-2011, 06:02 AM
I am just going to mention Hibbert. He is a real enigma to me, and I am a doubter lately.

He shows you that he has NBA skills and great energy... and then some games he will be not just a non factor, but an actual negative factor. Airball hookshots for the fast break... It might as well be a turnover really.

So that is what I am seeing, the air ball-brick hook shots, and he never passes out of double teams, he forces his shot while being double-triple teamed. He is better on the defensive end, but that is not saying much... He is a really good shot blocker when helping. I give him props on that, but you know he is 7'2"... of course he is a good help-defense shot blocker. His rebounding is so bad though... I feel he is just concentrating on the wrong parts of his game. He needs to get the basics down on how to rebound with his body instead of his hands, among other things. How do you teach a guy in his mid 20s fundamental basketball? I don't know if you can... Maybe 2 more years with Jeff will help?

Roy in November was considered the future. The untouchable. The guy who was going to be the face of the franchise.

At this point I am wondering if he is worth the MLE.

SYDNEY MILLER AUSTRALIA31
03-06-2011, 06:31 AM
i dont know if it is just me , but from watching some of the games lately it seems as if the other team always manages to get a player open without any problems for a free shot that always seems to go in.ive noticed that they do attempt to play defense but for some reason the other teams always manage to hit hard shots even though they have a hand in their face or a hand on the ball or even being totally off balance. i have come to the assumption that we are just cursed for some reason, things dont seem to be going right. i think something has to be done in the off season to get another star in here to help granger not only with points but with the leadership this ballclub badly needs, we have enough assets and after this season we should be looking at using them to our advantage. ive been a fan of the pacers since the early 90s and it hurts so much watching this basketball team go through what they are going through. my hope is dwindling , ive always tried to look on the bright side, but that bright side looks very dark for me. the pacers dont look like a team , they look like pretenders and as if they just cant wait for season to end. BIG CHANGES ARE NEEDED MAKE IT HAPPEN lost all my faith

special ed
03-06-2011, 07:28 AM
I'm taking the JOB philosophy and tell you that this is a load of crap. It's all about confidence and this team is as soft as a baby's butt when it comes to confidence. Simply witness their first 10 games once O'Brien was fired, then look at how they have played the minute things get tough.
Can't really point any fingers at one or two particular players, as you win or lose as a TEAM, but they certainly have shown when the going gets tough, these Pacers look for the quick out.
Maybe it's youth...maybe it's that they just don't have the talent. But there's no excuse for not being competitive.

flox
03-06-2011, 09:23 AM
Is our team mentally tough? I'm not sure.

OakMoses
03-06-2011, 09:59 AM
While I am not happy with losing, never have been never will be, I will say that I am happy knowing that the players that are losing now are players who I feel will be part of the club for the foreseeable future and the time on the floor (win or lose) is a learning experience.

Really? I'm having trouble pointing at any single guy on the roster and saying "That guy will be here when we make the 2nd round of the playoffs."

PacerPenguins
03-06-2011, 10:09 AM
ok i took a breath..........................EVERYTHINGS THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

D-BONE
03-06-2011, 10:10 AM
I am just going to mention Hibbert. He is a real enigma to me, and I am a doubter lately.

He shows you that he has NBA skills and great energy... and then some games he will be not just a non factor, but an actual negative factor. Airball hookshots for the fast break... It might as well be a turnover really.

So that is what I am seeing, the air ball-brick hook shots, and he never passes out of double teams, he forces his shot while being double-triple teamed. He is better on the defensive end, but that is not saying much... He is a really good shot blocker when helping. I give him props on that, but you know he is 7'2"... of course he is a good help-defense shot blocker. His rebounding is so bad though... I feel he is just concentrating on the wrong parts of his game. He needs to get the basics down on how to rebound with his body instead of his hands, among other things. How do you teach a guy in his mid 20s fundamental basketball? I don't know if you can... Maybe 2 more years with Jeff will help?

Roy in November was considered the future. The untouchable. The guy who was going to be the face of the franchise.

At this point I am wondering if he is worth the MLE.

I think unless we find that PF we're talking about - the big, physical, big-minute rebounding machine - Roy will probably never be really effective as a starter. A good backup, yes. We've all talked about the Smits comparison. I think this is one of the strongest similarities.

D-BONE
03-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Is our team mentally tough? I'm not sure.

Actually, the current core group hasn't shown any mental toughness. Can't recall much of that since J. Jack. Not saying he's the answer at all. Just saying that's the last time I remember much fight.

Here I mean against all teams, too. Not just the cupcakes that coincided with the switch to Vogel. Even in a game like Dallas, where we obviously stayed in striking distance, I thought we looked (as a unit) like in our minds we knew we were defeated.

OakMoses
03-06-2011, 11:25 AM
Is our team mentally tough? I'm not sure.

If anything, I'm more sure we're not.

speakout4
03-06-2011, 11:32 AM
I think unless we find that PF we're talking about - the big, physical, big-minute rebounding machine - Roy will probably never be really effective as a starter. A good backup, yes. We've all talked about the Smits comparison. I think this is one of the strongest similarities.
That's exactly right. Roy needs help in the paint. If he had a great rebounder or someone who could provide him space his shortcomings would not be as big a deal. i still like Roy for the immediate future.

Not sure why Roy and Tyler can't work together but right now i prefer Tyler with Foster.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 12:02 PM
I definitely would not say this is a tough team, but I believe there is a spectrum of toughness as opposed to a yes/no you are or you are not belief.

I'm not sure where they are on that spectrum. I'd guess towards the middle and probably a notch over from the middle towards the soft side. But I also don't feel like I'm watching the Charmin All-Stars.

I think our biggest problem is our constantly poor defense. A lot of it is mental breakdowns on team defense, some of it is poor individual play (particularly our guards), and then also the scheme itself IMO needs to be tweaked. I don't like when it encourages unnecessary help, which results in wide open corner threes or otherwise lets the offense have opportunities to burn us that we didn't need to give them automatically.

I consider all of that to be more about inexperience and inability moreso than some kind of severe toughness deficit.

Next DC has to pull his head out from his ***, and Roy isn't too far behind him. Danny recommitting (permanently would be nice) to his man to man defense would certainly help, too.

All of the above would go a long way towards righting the ship. Does mental toughness have something to do with it? Probably, but I think it gets too much play in discussions about the team.

dohman
03-06-2011, 12:12 PM
We have beat the teams we should beat. We have lost to some of the top teams in the league and Houston on a road trip and back to back.

Calm down. We all know we are a young team learning how to play at the pro level.

D-BONE
03-06-2011, 12:22 PM
I can deal with losses, but I'd like to see more equally distributed and consistent intensity. I get that inexperience affects that. Not to mention the new coach honeymoon effect and quality of opponent.

Still, I'd really like play together and leave everything out there each night. If you do that and lose, no complaints. If you do that an look sloppy so be it. The most important thing they need to do right now is get everyone back on the same page...team focus, commitment and effort.

This includes making lineup changes. If Vogel thinks it will help - and in the case of Rush and Collison I don't think it would a rash decision at this point - he shouldn't have to worry about bruising somebody's ego. Not if he thinks the team could benefit from it in the short term. It doesn't mean it's permanent.

BringJackBack
03-06-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't want to sound like a smart aleck, but Peck his name is spelled Lance Stephenson, not Stevenson. I used to get that messed up too so it's no biggie.. Just saw that misspelled a couple times. :laugh: Carry on.

Peck
03-06-2011, 01:29 PM
I don't want to sound like a smart aleck, but Peck his name is spelled Lance Stephenson, not Stevenson. I used to get that messed up too so it's no biggie.. Just saw that misspelled a couple times. :laugh: Carry on.

Yea, to be honest with you I almost put Stevens. I am not the best in the world when it comes to names or spelling for that matter.

BillS
03-06-2011, 01:30 PM
I agree with most of this, but there are a few comments I want to make.

Primarily, I tend to disagree that one can put up with losing because it is the young guys who "will be part of the club for the foreseeable future and the time on the floor (win or lose) is a learning experience."

First, I would say there is 0 chance that all of these guys will be here long-term, because trades will be needed to improve the team and you have to give in order to get. While the PD Desire seems to be that we only trade players with more than 5 years in the league, that may not be possible nor is it necessarily desirable.

Second, it is only a learning experience if there is someone who is able to take that negative experience and show you what you should have done instead. Otherwise, if the mistakes keep happening, it is simply ingraining a bad habit. The idea that simply making mistakes somehow keeps you from making them in the future is naive. That might apply to "rookie burns", where the savvy veteran takes you to school and you realize what he did, but I don't think it applies to things like ball gawking or poor rotation or so many other "2nd tier fundamentals". Do we have the coaches and, perhaps more importantly, the veterans to show guys what they need to be doing? I think we do, but the problem is using them and getting them listened to.

It is very telling to me that the team members expressing frustration are all veterans. This could just mean that these are the names the reporters felt like mentioning, or that they were the most obvious. However, it could also be true that the young guys have bought into the whole "it's OK to lose as long as we're getting floor time" mentality.

I was so frustrated with the game last night that I turned it off after the start of the 4th quarter. It was late and I had something to do early this morning was my excuse, but I almost NEVER stop watching a game in the middle.

That said, it IS a young team and we ALWAYS were going to have a long way to go. I just want the direction to continue to be to try to show the young guys the right way to play, not to go to the extreme of thinking they can get all their mistakes and bad habits out of their systems this season and start fresh next year, like there's a career quota to get through as soon as possible.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 01:40 PM
I think DC is the biggest issue.

With DC, what we are seeing is that he's making the same poor decisions he always was, but now his scoring has decreased, and so has his confidence.

Something needs to change, as others have said. Either his scoring and energy needs to return or we have to start AJ.

Chemistry I think is another big deal. You mentioned Lance. That maybe slightly a problem, but he really only plays 5 minutes at point in a close game. And it's all in the first half. This does screw up "the goons" a bit, but even then, it's not too much of a problem.

I think the bigger issue is that we are playing 11 guys (too many), and we've added two of them to the rotation. Not just Lance but Rush too, and we've taken out a solid vet that no one wants to admit they miss.

dohman
03-06-2011, 02:22 PM
I think DC is the biggest issue.

With DC, what we are seeing is that he's making the same poor decisions he always was, but now his scoring has decreased, and so has his confidence.

Something needs to change, as others have said. Either his scoring and energy needs to return or we have to start AJ.

Chemistry I think is another big deal. You mentioned Lance. That maybe slightly a problem, but he really only plays 5 minutes at point in a close game. And it's all in the first half. This does screw up "the goons" a bit, but even then, it's not too much of a problem.

I think the bigger issue is that we are playing 11 guys (too many), and we've added two of them to the rotation. Not just Lance but Rush too, and we've taken out a solid vet that no one wants to admit they miss.

How many point guards can we go through?

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 02:25 PM
I think DC is the biggest issue.

With DC, what we are seeing is that he's making the same poor decisions he always was, but now his scoring has decreased, and so has his confidence.

Something needs to change, as others have said. Either his scoring and energy needs to return or we have to start AJ.

Chemistry I think is another big deal. You mentioned Lance. That maybe slightly a problem, but he really only plays 5 minutes at point in a close game. And it's all in the first half. This does screw up "the goons" a bit, but even then, it's not too much of a problem.

I think the bigger issue is that we are playing 11 guys (too many), and we've added two of them to the rotation. Not just Lance but Rush too, and we've taken out a solid vet that no one wants to admit they miss.

LOL so you go from saying let the kids play thru it to benching DC?? :lol2:

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 02:33 PM
I think I am going to be the firts one to say this, I don't think we need Dunleavy, yes he makes the offense looks prettier, Travis Diener did the same thing in his time here, does anybody here really think that we had a chance to beat OKC,Dallas and Houston with Dunleavy playing? I don't think so.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 02:33 PM
LOL so you go from saying let the kids play thru it to benching DC?? :lol2:

Where did I say to bench DC? He needs to wake up. That's all.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 02:36 PM
Where did I say to bench DC? He needs to wake up. That's all.


I think DC is the biggest issue.

With DC, what we are seeing is that he's making the same poor decisions he always was, but now his scoring has decreased, and so has his confidence.

Something needs to change, as others have said. Either his scoring and energy needs to return or we have to start AJ.

Chemistry I think is another big deal. You mentioned Lance. That maybe slightly a problem, but he really only plays 5 minutes at point in a close game. And it's all in the first half. This does screw up "the goons" a bit, but even then, it's not too much of a problem.

I think the bigger issue is that we are playing 11 guys (too many), and we've added two of them to the rotation. Not just Lance but Rush too, and we've taken out a solid vet that no one wants to admit they miss.

.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 02:43 PM
Sorry, I consider "benching" to mean "not play" you meant it literally, okay fine.

It's the obvious move to improve the team right now, unless DC wakes up.

Maybe something like taking DC out of the starting lineup would wake him up, and show him that he needs to play well in order to get his minutes. You have to teach guys too.

I have flip flopped on this one (just like I flip flopped over and over again on Dun/Rush). For me, it's not the lack of defense or the poor shooting that's bothering me..DC's not a good defensive player and sometimes guy's shots don't fall. It's the stupid **** he keeps doing that puts me on this side of the fence (for now..)

speakout4
03-06-2011, 02:58 PM
I think DC is the biggest issue.

With DC, what we are seeing is that he's making the same poor decisions he always was, but now his scoring has decreased, and so has his confidence.

Something needs to change, as others have said. Either his scoring and energy needs to return or we have to start AJ.

Chemistry I think is another big deal. You mentioned Lance. That maybe slightly a problem, but he really only plays 5 minutes at point in a close game. And it's all in the first half. This does screw up "the goons" a bit, but even then, it's not too much of a problem.

I think the bigger issue is that we are playing 11 guys (too many), and we've added two of them to the rotation. Not just Lance but Rush too, and we've taken out a solid vet that no one wants to admit they miss.
Why do I always come back to the notion that you are AJs relative, friend, agents, etc?

Infinite MAN_force
03-06-2011, 03:06 PM
Thank god for Odd Thoughts, if it weren't for post's like this I would probably swear off the digest completely when the team is losing because I can't stand all the irrational negativity.

cdash
03-06-2011, 03:10 PM
I think I am going to be the firts one to say this, I don't think we need Dunleavy, yes he makes the offense looks prettier, Travis Diener did the same thing in his time here, does anybody here really think that we had a chance to beat OKC,Dallas and Houston with Dunleavy playing? I don't think so.

Travis Diener made the offense look pretty?

cdash
03-06-2011, 03:11 PM
I think the bigger issue is that we are playing 11 guys (too many), and we've added two of them to the rotation. Not just Lance but Rush too, and we've taken out a solid vet that no one wants to admit they miss.

Yeah, I think we need to cut someone out of the rotation. 11 guys is way too many. Either Rush or Dahntay needs to be eliminated. I prefer Brandon, but know I'm probably alone on that island.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 03:15 PM
Travis Diener made the offense look pretty?

Yep he was a good as Dunleavy, he knew how to move without the ball and run in circles like Mike, his defense also sucked like Mike, in fact he was the only thing me and UB used to agree on :) (in how we liked how he made the offense look better).

cdash
03-06-2011, 03:17 PM
Yep he was a good as Dunleavy, he knew how to move without the ball and run in circles like Mike, his defense also sucked like Mike, in fact he was the only thing me and UB used to agree on :) (in how we liked how he made the offense look better).

Yeah, I know you hate Dunleavy, it's well documented in about 400 different posts, but you have to admit that a) Dunleavy is a hell of a lot better than Travis Diener and b) Dunleavy's absence has negatively effected the team. Maybe not in a major way, but he is missed.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 03:19 PM
Why do I always come back to the notion that you are AJs relative, friend, agents, etc?

I'm not. Happy now.

I'm a fan, and I view basketball differently than a lot of people. I get that.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Yeah, I think we need to cut someone out of the rotation. 11 guys is way too many. Either Rush or Dahntay needs to be eliminated. I prefer Brandon, but know I'm probably alone on that island.

I actually would pick Brandon too. He's a young guy, but it's clear that Larry doesn't see him as a part of the future. He also doesn't bring the energy and intensity that Dahntay does. I'll take DJones and his flaws right now, I think he's someone that needs to be getting minutes.

speakout4
03-06-2011, 03:25 PM
Yeah, I know you hate Dunleavy, it's well documented in about 400 different posts, but you have to admit that a) Dunleavy is a hell of a lot better than Travis Diener and b) Dunleavy's absence has negatively effected the team. Maybe not in a major way, but he is missed.
I give Dun a bit more credit than you are and believe this last slide coincided with his injury. He may not be a great starter but would make a pretty good goon. To compare him to Travis is incomprehensible.

I am not Mike's friend, relative, agent, and have never met him

imawhat
03-06-2011, 03:28 PM
AJ to the starting lineup makes a lot of sense. He plays very well with Rush, Roy and Josh. He also runs the offense 100 times better than Darren (despite calling his own number too often) and plays better defense.

And in doing so, you move Darren to the bench with Tyler, and they play well together. Plus you cover up some of his defensive flaws as he's not guarding top notch guys. Darren and Lance seem to be playing well together as well.

If Brandon's play doesn't improve with AJ in the lineup, which I suspect it will, then you think about moving Brandon too.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I know you hate Dunleavy, it's well documented in about 400 different posts, but you have to admit that a) Dunleavy is a hell of a lot better than Travis Diener and b) Dunleavy's absence has negatively effected the team. Maybe not in a major way, but he is missed.

Yes of course Mike is better than Diener nobody is saying otherwise, I disagree in the part were Dunleavy's absence has a negative impact on the team, playing againts better teams is what is making this team lose, I am pretty sure that if we had Mike during those games we could have lost by a bigger margin, who he was going to guard in OKC? or Dallas? Chase Budinger or C Lee in Houston? no way.

Was he going to help in the offensive end? his average againts good teams since Vogel is horrible, so yeah my answer is nope.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Here is a video of Travis Diener, I didn't even know he was playing in Italy. :laugh:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6AaaxX9RfB4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 04:01 PM
AJ Price is this team's best point guard. He's really the only actual point guard. He should be starting and playing 36 minutes a night. Collison was anointed as "the future" by the entire organization from the second the trade was announced. They gave him the job before ever getting a solid chance to see him up close. We are suffering as a result. The slobbering over him as the team's point guard went to his head. It all backfired. Sure he's only in his second year, but it's so obvious we traded for a what we thought was a Ferrari and got a lemon. He is TJ Ford with a jump shot.

Everyone is whining about Josh and the lack of a starting NBA caliber power forward, but Peck is right, that is the most consistent position we have right now. It is the only position that you know exactly what you will get from both Josh and Tyler every night. Efficient, facilitative offense from Josh and high-volume scoring from Tyler.

Roy is a mess. If team's start sending double team's at him every time he touches the ball, we are screwed. He gets completely shell shocked by it. The scouting report on that guy is so simple. Be physical with him on the block, try to dig the ball out with your guards, and wait to collect the air ball.

Granger thinks he's playing a pick-up game, and doesn't need to play defense. Rush only plays defense.

Things are bad right now, but that shouldn't have been unexpected. This was going to happen. Truthfully, next week is this team's and Vogel's first major test since the coaching change was made. It will be interesting to see how they bounce back. I think we need to win all 3 games next week.

speakout4
03-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Everyone is whining about Josh and the lack of a starting NBA caliber power forward, but Peck is right, that is the most consistent position we have right now. It is the only position that you know exactly what you will get from both Josh and Tyler every night. Efficient, facilitative offense from Josh and high-volume scoring from Tyler.

Roy is a mess. If team's start sending double team's at him every time he touches the ball, we are screwed. He gets completely shell shocked by it. The scouting report on that guy is so simple. Be physical with him on the block, try to dig the ball out with your guards, and wait to collect the air ball.
.
Roy needs a big to get rebounds and give him space. I agree that when Roy is double, triple teamed he is useless but a PF that comes to help would remedy some of this.Josh and Tyler don't seem to be doing this.

McKeyFan
03-06-2011, 04:18 PM
Start Lance. Bench DC.

Let Lance's creating in the first unit and Hans and Dahntay's ball hogging and AJ's one on one action in the second unit provide the offense for now.

Spend all of practicing time on rediscovering defense.

PacerHound
03-06-2011, 04:46 PM
About the only thing one can be sure of any more is that by the end of the first quarter the Pacers will be in trouble unless the opposition is one of the poorer teams in the league. The chemistry of the starting unit is gone and I do not see any easy way to fix it. At this point it would be unfair to ask a player on the second unit to take over a position as a starter for it would only make him look bad having to play with the 4 other guys who have no chemistry.

On the offensive end your job would be to just stay out of the way of Granger and Hibbert which is easy enough to do but means you cannot contribute much (maybe set a pick or make a pass) and on the defensive end you know good and well the perimeter is going to break down and you are going to have to play the help defense that pulls you off your man so the offense can pass it to him for any easy score. End of the game the stat box shows your guy with 20 because you spent the night playing help. You are screwed if you do and screwed if you don't – a no win situation. (Hint: it helps if you keep your man if front of you to start with.)

Maybe playing some weak teams will allow us to get back together but if not I think it will take more than just moving a single guy out of the starting lineup – more like two or three guys – for the chemistry has to be changed as well as both the offensive and defensive schemes (if you don't change them you got to fix them for they are broke). Of course one easy solution would be to just play bottom of the league tier teams but I don't think they allow that do they?

By the way I am not implying that Granger and Hibbert are hogging the ball. I don't believe that. It is just that the starting unit is built around those two guys scoring big time and is designed to get them shots. The problem is the best teams have at least 3 or 4 scorers on the floor and not just one or two.

NuffSaid
03-06-2011, 05:00 PM
Peck,

You hit every point dead on! Excellent analysis and straight forward, honest commentary. I've said for most of the season (and even last year) that Mike Dunleavy's value to this team is far more important than most people realize. Once he went down with his broken thumb, player and ball movement both suffered.

I've noticed for quite some time that Hibbert gets rattled when doubled, but he usually had either Dunleavy or Jmac to make the right cuts and provide a target for Roy to get the ball to. With Dunleavy out, who has shown the ability to break free and avail himself as that new target? For my take, if Hibbert gets doubled-up, that means somebody is free on offense. Last night, that person was Collison. So, my question is why wasn't he showing himself on the weakside, availing himself as that target? Of course, Hibbert does need to read AND react to double-teams much faster but our PGs also need to get him the ball faster as well. The problem here, however, is in most cases Hibbert is still down court and hasn't gotten back with his team in transition. It's good of our PGs to get beyond half-court within 6 seconds and still have 18 tics remaining on the shot clock, but that does the Pacers no good if only one or two players have run with our PGs and the anchor of our defense and our only viable low-post threat is still on the other side of the half-court line. Hibbert did alittle better job of getting down court against the Rockets, but the Rockets did their homework and knew Roy stuggled passing out of double-teams. And once he's out of his comfort zone down in the paint it's difficult for Big Roy to recover and make defenses pay on the offensive end. Bottom line: I applaud Roy's efforts for making some improvements last summer, but he still has LOTS of work to do in the off-season.

I think there's lots of truth in what Peck says concerning the fluxuation with our Guards, specifically at SG. Vogel took the risk and gave BRush the starting job again which was his to loss from last year. So far, HE HAS NOT shown himself capable of handling the role. At this point, Paul George, despite his youthful inexperience at the NBA level, has shown far more promise at this point than BRush. I've debated whether or not a lineup change is necessary myself, but based on the obvious weaknesses this team has shown since the trade deadline, I'd say that's exactly what's needed to break this team out of its woeful disjointed performances of late. Coach Vogel: Don't be afraid to make whatever necessary lineup adjustments you believe are needed to help bring back team chemistry and improved performance. Paul George showed himself capable of holding down significant minutes while BRush was sitting out his 5-game suspension. I'm confident he can and is more than willing to step into that role again.

I said it at the start of the season that I thought it was a huge mistake to start Darren Collison over AJ. Price mostly because of the very issues Peck and other sports analysis have made very clear: This team is young and still lacks experience. To that, it baffled my mind to learn that Collison would be starting for us and had only performed as a starter under Chris Paul briefly while he was out injured. Sure, he performed well but he did so because he understood his players and the offense New Orleans was running. Now, to be fair Collison hasn't done too bad for us, but in my view he hasn't been as dynamic nor made nearly as much impact from the Point as AJ Price had until recently. I think you have to re-evaluate our PG situation; if it means giving more minutes to AJ over Collison, so be it.

Lance Stephenson - is he a PG or SG? I think Vogel has decided he's a play maker and, as such, has decided to use him more at SG as a Scoring Guard/facilitator which is probably the best move Vogel could have made concerning how to get the best performance out of Lance. Still, like Peck, I am (have been) concerned about Lance's impact on team chemistry. I think as time goes on he'll begin to gel with his teammates more, but how much more time do the Pacers have to work out the kinks in this unity effort? The only bright spot here is atleast Lance has performed fairly well in each game. Nothing spectacular, but not too bad either.

Overall, the Pacers need to tighten up their defense. They can improve if they make the effort to rotate defensively. The Ghone Squad does this with much more effectiveness than the starters. Our Guards also need to step up ALOT!!! The only consistent bright spots has been Paul George. Swap BRush for George and really give consideration to swapping Collison for Price and I think the Pacers will start seeing some improvements with their Guards. It's risky because you disrupt chemistry especially with the Ghone Squad, but I think you have to try something to shake this team out of its defensive and offensive funk.

McKeyFan
03-06-2011, 05:01 PM
DC is doing the following that he didn't use to do:

- He is failing to find Hibbert in the post
- He is making numerous bad passes leading to turnovers
- He is missing his midrange jumpers by a lot, not a little
- He is driving to the hoop and getting easily blocked

Earlier in the season, he wasn't doing any of this in a chronic way.

This Jekyl/Hyde thing really makes me wonder about keeping him around. It's not like defense and distribution will bail out his poor shooting performances.

NuffSaid
03-06-2011, 05:03 PM
Yeah, I think we need to cut someone out of the rotation. 11 guys is way too many. Either Rush or Dahntay needs to be eliminated. I prefer Brandon, but know I'm probably alone on that island.
Actually, I'd say you'd have far more support for benching BRush, but I wouldn't replace him with Dahntey Jones. Let him continue to play behind Danny Granger. I think Paul George should get BRush's minutes and let himself and Stephenson share that load. Worse case, you play Dahntey and Granger together for brief stints and see how that works out. But I wouldn't move Dahntey to SG at this point.

NuffSaid
03-06-2011, 05:14 PM
That's exactly right. Roy needs help in the paint. If he had a great rebounder or someone who could provide him space his shortcomings would not be as big a deal. i still like Roy for the immediate future.

Not sure why Roy and Tyler can't work together but right now i prefer Tyler with Foster.
Jmac should work on his post-up game over the summer. Hell, he should incorporate more of it NOW. He can do it; the offense just doesn't afford him many opportunities to do it. Most of our post-plays are designed to feed Roy the ball down low, not Jmac. So, whenever Jmac does attempt to post-up his man I've very surprised. He has shown some effectiveness, but he needs to be placed in that position alot more in order to get comfortable doing it. Right now, I think Vogel (and JOB before him) wanted Jmac to do three things well: 1) be the 1st big down court in transition, 2) be a distributing big man, and 3) play facing the basket using his speed and keen ball control and power-play above the rim. To that, Jmac hasn't disappointed one bit. But having another big who has a post-up game would be very beneficial to Roy. Even Hansborough has tried to do it, but he plays out of control so much...Tyler just needs to learn how/when to slow down just alittle. I do love his hustle though.

beast23
03-06-2011, 05:23 PM
Good post, Peck.

Touching a bit on the youth, I think it is important to realize what might transpire following this season. More than likely Dunleavy, TJFord and SJones will be gone. It is probably 50/50 that Foster will be gone.

If the Pacers get lucky, they will be able to make a trade that includes Posey.

Do we begin to recognize a trend here? We will be losing our oldest, most experienced players on our roster. And just getting down to the bottom line, we will probably be losting our most mature players when it comes to having a variety of experiences in their time in the league that helps "stabilize" or provide an emotional base for a team.

Many here on the forum don't seem to have an appreciation whatsoever for age and experience... all they want is an even stronger commitment of the ongoing youth movement. Good God... at times I think that many would promote the rationale behind "Soylent Green".

All I can say is God help us if we end up replacing each of these older players with another member of the youth movement. In my opinion we will need some vets to balance and stabilize the team. I only hope that some of them are also "leaders", because right now, we have a team stacked full of "followers".

Larry Staverman
03-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Is our team mentally tough? I'm not sure.

After getting roughed up 3 games on the road they have reached the low point in Vogel's brief tenure and there are a lot of questions.

Tuesday's game against the Sixers will be a big measuring stick on the way the rest of the season will go.

Playing a team that they have beaten twice, at home, after a rough stretch will be a major gut check and will go a long way to showing if they stay together as a team. It will not be an easy game as the Sixers are playing well but it is a game the need to play well and win.

We will see if they have learned anything the last few games, are upset with their performance of late and play with an edge.

Pacersalltheway10
03-06-2011, 05:48 PM
All of this find another Pg next season is sickening. Once again DC is a 2nd year player. this is just like Hibberts slump when people were already picking out Roys replacements. this is his first slump as a player and people are all ready giving up on him WTF.

I can't take this irrational negativity towards every little thing.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 05:57 PM
All of this find another Pg next season is sickening. Once again DC is a 2nd year player. this is just like Hibberts slump when people were already picking out Roys replacements. this is his first slump as a player and people are all ready giving up on him WTF.

I can't take this irrational negativity towards every little thing.

This might be his first major shooting slump, but he's played this way all season. People were just blinded by his shots falling.

AesopRockOn
03-06-2011, 05:59 PM
Sure, we look worse. But I think it's mostly because we're playing better teams.

OakMoses
03-06-2011, 06:04 PM
Yeah, I think we need to cut someone out of the rotation. 11 guys is way too many. Either Rush or Dahntay needs to be eliminated. I prefer Brandon, but know I'm probably alone on that island.

I've been a long suffering Rush supporter, but I'm pretty much done with both of these guys right now. I'd love to see both of them cut out in order to give George and Lance more minutes at the 2.

dohman
03-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Darren is ONLY a second year player. We have to remember that. He is going to have ups and downs this season and next. Calm down, he is still one of the best point guards we have had in a long time. We have seen some very good stuff so far from him. Second year player already in his third system.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 07:00 PM
I've been a long suffering Rush supporter, but I'm pretty much done with both of these guys right now. I'd love to see both of them cut out in order to give George and Lance more minutes at the 2.

I'd get rid of Dahanty before Rush. I just don't like Dahanty, even when he hits his shots, he just stifles ball movement so terrible.

Kemo
03-06-2011, 07:15 PM
I like Dahntay as a roleplaying defender off the bench , or as someone who can draw some fouls and get to the line in spot minutes off the bench.. about 5/6 minutes and that pretty much it.. unless he clearly is playing very hot, like he did a few weeks ago when he ended up scoring most of his 18 pts in the 4th ..

My main problem with DJ , is that when he gets the ball , I pretty much know he isn't gonna pass it 90% of the time..
Thats pretty much my only problem with him..

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 07:18 PM
Darren is ONLY a second year player. We have to remember that. He is going to have ups and downs this season and next. Calm down, he is still one of the best point guards we have had in a long time. We have seen some very good stuff so far from him. Second year player already in his third system.

The funny part in all this is that Lance who has only played 5 games as a rookie, looks better at point guard than either AJ or DC, so yeah I don't buy the "only a second year player thing"

cdash
03-06-2011, 07:24 PM
The funny part in all this is that Lance who has only played 5 games as a rookie, looks better at point guard than either AJ or DC, so yeah I don't buy the "only a second year player thing"

I think Lance looks better because we are all so excited to see him. No one is going to poke holes in his game right now. If he had played this entire season at point guard playing the minutes that Darren has, I guarantee you and others would be crying for his head. You chastise Dunleavy because he gets beat off the dribble all the time...imagine what would happen to Lance guarding opposing point guards full time. Look, Vogel has been clever about how he's played Lance. He hasn't made him guard anyone that is going to blow right by him. He's setting him up to succeed, which is the right move, but if we got a full season of Lance I think we would start poking holes in his game by this point. Holes that are there, we just choose to look past them and justify them by saying (truthfully) that he's a rookie, has no experience, etc.

McKeyFan
03-06-2011, 08:17 PM
Darren is ONLY a second year player.

Earlier this year, I put up with Collison's weak defense and mediocre distribution because he was a deadeye shooter. He seemed to be a gamer.

But watching him be in a slump for this long, and to not stay mentally tough while shooting bad but instead make more dumb turnovers, well, I no longer think his "good shooting" makes up for his other major liabilities.

I've wondered the entire time that AJ was sitting if he was as good or better than DC. Then he started getting minutes and proving it.

Now I want Lance.

Unclebuck
03-06-2011, 11:24 PM
I find myself in a very difficult situation, if I post what is really on my mind I will be severely castigated. So I will not go there. I will say I would be shocked if the Pacers won more than 6 games the rest of the way. I do hope we can now accurately judge the pacers talent.

Pacerfan
03-06-2011, 11:54 PM
Things are not as bad as they seem. The two bad games they had, OKC and Houston, were the 2nd of back to backs. For some reason, at least lately, Pacers have been horrible on the 2nd of back to backs. Does this make it okay? Of course not. But they actually had a decent game against Dallas. They would have beat most of the other teams in the NBA that night. Their offense actually looked good... I remember hearing the Dallas commentators talking about how good the offense was. Yes, they ended up losing... but not because they played a bad game, but rather because Dallas played a really good game.

What does really bother me is the defense. Are the players so terrible that they can't play defense? Can this problem never be fixed with the players we have? One word. No. It was these same players (plus Dun) that played stifling defense the beginning of the year and basically stopped penetration into the post. The coaches need to realize the defensive rotations need to be fixed and look back to those early wins and see what was working. Yes, JOB was horrible about player rotations, offensive sets, and communication but his defensive sets were actually pretty good.

Lance can really help this team. Now. I really don't care whether he's a pg or sg but he needs to play and handle the ball. Whenever he drives into the lane good things happen. If he can learn to finish he will be even better. His passes are Mark Jacksonesque. It almost seems like everytime he handles the ball he gets someone an open look or he gets to the basket. This is exactly what we need.

Now lets move on to Darren Collison. I really do like the guy...but I don't know about him being the pg of the future. I think someone on here stated it perfectly when they said that Dunleavy usually masked Darren's weaknesses. Darren has very little court vision. He never gets Roy the ball when he establishes position in the post at the beginning of the possession before the defense has time to set. I've seen this over and over again. He never sees the open guy. If he's handling the ball on the fast break, hopefully he can get to the hoop and not get blocked because he will not see the open guy. I want him to succeed and help the Pacers as much as the next person, but he just doesn't have court vision.

I really would like to see Lance play with the first unit. I think he could really help them with their offensive problems. You're not really messing with the goon squad but just using Lance a little differently. We can still have Darren start because Frank obviously won't take him out of the starting lineup. Lance can just be the first sub around the six minute mark if Darren is not doing well. I just want to see what he can do with that group to help them. If it helps it helps and if not you haven't really messed the rotations up much.

In conclusion, I don't think this team is bad. They've had some bad games, but they have the weapons to be good if used properly.

cdash
03-06-2011, 11:58 PM
I find myself in a very difficult situation, if I post what is really on my mind I will be severely castigated. So I will not go there. I will say I would be shocked if the Pacers won more than 6 games the rest of the way. I do hope we can now accurately judge the pacers talent.

Has that ever stopped you before? Let's have it.

Peck
03-07-2011, 01:00 AM
I find myself in a very difficult situation, if I post what is really on my mind I will be severely castigated. So I will not go there. I will say I would be shocked if the Pacers won more than 6 games the rest of the way. I do hope we can now accurately judge the pacers talent.

Seven wins would not be out of the question, however they are going to have to play almost perfectly with no let downs to get there.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 01:14 AM
Seven wins would not be out of the question, however they are going to have to play almost perfectly with no let downs to get there.

And the sad thing is that might win the 8 seed :laugh:

Sookie
03-07-2011, 01:24 AM
And the sad thing is that might win the 8 seed :laugh:

Might?

I think 4 wins will get the 8th seed..

Kegboy
03-07-2011, 01:31 AM
Seven wins would not be out of the question, however they are going to have to play almost perfectly with no let downs to get there.

Okay, I expect that out of Buck, but seriously?! And here I thought the title was about not overreacting to things.

Since we drop kicked Jimmy, we're 9-1 against below .500 teams and 1-7 against the rest. That's a pretty clear indication of how things are going in my book.

Out of the 20 games we have left, 9 are against losing teams. Throw in very winnable home games against Philly and NY in a home-and-home (you know, the team that can't beat Cleveland), and I'd be shocked if we only won 6 or 7.

But hey, if you guys are right, at least Grace will be happy.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 01:33 AM
Good post, Peck.

Touching a bit on the youth, I think it is important to realize what might transpire following this season. More than likely Dunleavy, TJFord and SJones will be gone. It is probably 50/50 that Foster will be gone.

If the Pacers get lucky, they will be able to make a trade that includes Posey.

Do we begin to recognize a trend here? We will be losing our oldest, most experienced players on our roster. And just getting down to the bottom line, we will probably be losting our most mature players when it comes to having a variety of experiences in their time in the league that helps "stabilize" or provide an emotional base for a team.

Many here on the forum don't seem to have an appreciation whatsoever for age and experience... all they want is an even stronger commitment of the ongoing youth movement. Good God... at times I think that many would promote the rationale behind "Soylent Green".

All I can say is God help us if we end up replacing each of these older players with another member of the youth movement. In my opinion we will need some vets to balance and stabilize the team. I only hope that some of them are also "leaders", because right now, we have a team stacked full of "followers".

i agree this team lacks veteran leadership. but i dont think the expiring vets really make a difference. alothough, dunleavy appears to be a much more intergral part of this offense than first considered.

Granger, Foster, and DJones to some degree are the vets the young players can look to on this team and its not enough.. even though Foster is perfect for the 2nd unit.

we need more veteran presence in the starting lineup. the way collison has been playing recently, i would consider vet pgs that might be available as well, but SG is a position that needs upgraded significantly.

PF will be the next position to upgrade, looks less likely West will end up in Indy. I really hate the idea of signing Zbo. i dont care how talented the guy is.. for this franchise its just asking for trouble. i agree with eveyone in here Zbo is a talent and would help the pacers greatly.

but at what price, the contract would be expensive and it would be longterm. i see no reason to not wait until 2012 FA when guys like Gordon, Love may be available.

PaceBalls
03-07-2011, 03:44 AM
Okay, I expect that out of Buck, but seriously?! And here I thought the title was about not overreacting to things.

Since we drop kicked Jimmy, we're 9-1 against below .500 teams and 1-7 against the rest. That's a pretty clear indication of how things are going in my book.

Out of the 20 games we have left, 9 are against losing teams.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B0lpityVOiE" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe>


The honeymoon is over...

Something happened along the way!

PaceBalls
03-07-2011, 03:56 AM
I find myself in a very difficult situation, if I post what is really on my mind I will be severely castigated. So I will not go there. I will say I would be shocked if the Pacers won more than 6 games the rest of the way. I do hope we can now accurately judge the pacers talent.

Hey dude, don't let them stop you.

When things go bad, and it has been bad... there is a tendency for people to expect others to see what they see. That is seldom the case in any peer review. It is crucial that other people state other opinions.

There are still alot of us that read the forum who value your insights, contrarian though they might be.

Peck
03-07-2011, 03:58 AM
Okay, I expect that out of Buck, but seriously?! And here I thought the title was about not overreacting to things.

Since we drop kicked Jimmy, we're 9-1 against below .500 teams and 1-7 against the rest. That's a pretty clear indication of how things are going in my book.

Out of the 20 games we have left, 9 are against losing teams. Throw in very winnable home games against Philly and NY in a home-and-home (you know, the team that can't beat Cleveland), and I'd be shocked if we only won 6 or 7.

But hey, if you guys are right, at least Grace will be happy.

Well honestly I didn't think I was bing overly pessimistic in my thought there but let's look at the schedule.

Philly is winnable certainly but that is going to require that we have no let downs and no 8 point starting back court scoring spree's.

Min is winnable

Toronto is winnable, again though no let downs can occur as they are starting to play a little better.

N.Y. I have no idea. but my guess is there is no way we sweep them in a back to back so let's say we split

Boston, no

Chicago, no

Memphis, again possible but zero let downs

New Jersey, winnable

Char., this is tricky. Very winnable but depending on where they are at in the playoff race at the time. They either might be tanking or fighting for their lives.

Sac., winnable

Detroit, it's not been easy by any means with them but again winnable

Boston, no

Detroit, we'll drop one of these

Mil. hard to say. We have not played very well at all vs. them this season although the change in approach did work the last time.

New Orleans winnable but tough to do

Washington winnable

Atlanta, no

New York, possible

Orlando, no

Obviously you can say you have a chance to win or lose every game but if I have to predict I'll say this.

Philly (L)
Min (W)
Tor (W)
NY (L)
NY (W)
Bos (L)
Chi (L)
Mem (W)
NJ (W)
Char (L)
Sac (W)
Det (L)
Bos (L)
Det (W)
Mil (W)
NO (L)
Was (W)
Atl (L)
NY (L)
Orl (L)

Ok, that is 9 wins and that is me being very optomistic about Memphis & Miwaukee. However there is little chance we get to even U.B.'s 6 wins if Darren Collison continues along the same path as we have seen the last 5 games.

PaceBalls
03-07-2011, 04:15 AM
The 3 New York games are guaranteed losses as far as I see.

We are talking about Chauncy Billups, Carmello Anthony and Amare. Amare might be the MVP this year. They actually have a "big three". We have a bad three... or four.

ilive4sports
03-07-2011, 04:35 AM
The 3 New York games are guaranteed losses as far as I see.

We are talking about Chauncy Billups, Carmello Anthony and Amare. Amare might be the MVP this year. They actually have a "big three". We have a bad three... or four.

They are so good that they lose to the Cavs... twice...

PaceBalls
03-07-2011, 04:40 AM
They are so good that they lose to the Cavs... twice...

And the Pacers are so good that they can beat the Heat and Lakers... see what I did there??

ilive4sports
03-07-2011, 04:58 AM
And the Pacers are so good that they can beat the Heat and Lakers... see what I did there??

Yes and it plays exactly to my point. Any team can win on any night. The knicks have had problems since the trade so saying they will sweep us because of their "big three" isn't a sure thing.

McKeyFan
03-07-2011, 07:17 AM
I find myself in a very difficult situation, if I post what is really on my mind I will be severely castigated. So I will not go there.
It's okay UB. We know you have a special love for Peck.

This board is more open-minded than you realize.

Kemo
03-07-2011, 09:10 AM
It's okay UB. We know you have a special love for Peck.

This board is more open-minded than you realize.

http://www.asupra.com/gallery/d/4009-1/orly3.jpg

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 09:34 AM
Since we drop kicked Jimmy, we're 9-1 against below .500 teams and 1-7 against the rest. That's a pretty clear indication of how things are going in my book.



Yes but how many of those 9 wins against below .500 teams were during the honeymoon period. Also as the honeymoon period waned the games against the below .500 teams have been getting closer and closer. Barely beating the Pistons at home, barely beating the Warriors at home. The games right after the coaching change were easier wins.

If you look at how the pacers play in the second half of back to backs - And the fact of the matter is if the pacers play like they did in OKC and in Houston they might be able to beat the Cavs at home, but probably no other teams

kester99
03-07-2011, 10:14 AM
Do you remember last year, when we started winning a bunch down the stretch, possibly because we were still trying, and some of the opponents weren't? When does that start this year? I want that to start.

But slightly more seriously, we showed well against Dallas, and if that Pacers team keeps making it to the arena, then I think we'll win those nine (or more). A win against Philly would be a real nice indicator.

bellisimo
03-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Do you remember last year, when we started winning a bunch down the stretch, possibly because we were still trying, and some of the opponents weren't? When does that start this year? I want that to start.


we already went through that stretch of teams last month when Vogel took over the reigns...

all those winnings down the stretch were patching what was wrong with the team - it made us look like as if we got our act together...when in fact it was more about us just beating teams that we could beat - and lose to the teams that we'd lose to...

MagicRat
03-07-2011, 11:11 AM
The O.J. Mayo for Josh McRoberts trade went public. Josh seems to have overcome this although I do believe for the first couple of games he didn’t seem all there, but that could have just been my perception. But at the end of the day a player who thought that he would sign his new contract with his hometown team found out he was going to be dealt, sorry but that might affect chemistry. It might not as well, but we’ll never know.

I don't think it was the trade talk that affected him. Independent women have probably been calling at all hours of the night and he can't get a good night's sleep.......
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/mcsingle.jpg

imawhat
03-07-2011, 12:44 PM
7:30 on a Friday.....that's game time.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 02:38 PM
I cannot remember a time in the past 4 seasons when our defense has been this bad (and that is really saying something) Sure against the Mavs the Pacers played hard and decently well, but their defense still was not good.

Reading Indystar today it would appear the players are sick of each other, sick of the breakdowns. This also follows what Seth and Gnome relayed as far as what Foster hinted to them

Sookie
03-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I cannot remember a time in the past 4 seasons when our defense has been this bad (and that is really saying something) Sure against the Mavs the Pacers played hard and decently well, but their defense still was not good.

Reading Indystar today it would appear the players are sick of each other, sick of the breakdowns. This also follows what Seth and Gnome relayed as far as what Foster hinted to them

I don't get that at all.

In fact many of players commented that they weren't in the same place as they were a few weeks ago, and need to get back to that. Their frustration is a good thing. A few months ago, they were apathetic.

The defense is a significant problem, and quite frankly, as much crap as DC gets about it, he's not the only problem.

He's a poor defender, everyone knows that. And I don't think it's an effort thing.

Rush is an excellent defender, Danny's capable of being one, Josh is capable of being good, and Roy is capable of being at least decent (we've seen it before) That should be more than enough to cover for Darren. And it hasn't been.

The whole team does a crappy job of boxing out. Roy and Josh are the bigger problem here (although, half the time they are over helping because one of the perimeter guys let their man run past them..) Tyler and Foster are so aggressive that it doesn't matter and we get a rebound...but boxing out is fundamental, and for guys like Josh and Roy who aren't fundamental, it needs to happen.

I like what Josh brings to the game. I like his facilitating, his unique set of skills..I think he plays very well next to Hibbert. But boxing out is something so simple and so fundamental that he needs to be doing it, consistently. Same for Roy.

However, I think that Vogel tried to change the defense a bit, and a lot of the younger guys are confused on rotations. That seemed to be what Danny, Foster, and Dahntay have been upset about.

Vogel also took a risk. I think it was a smart one, but it didn't pay off. He decided to reduce the amount of practice time to save legs. If the guys were tired, they weren't going to be able to play. However, that meant that they couldn't work on this stuff in practice. Perhaps a few days to work on it will help.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 02:58 PM
What does this stat mean.

Pacers are 3 -23 when they trail at halftime. - That is the worst record in the entire NBA. The Clips, T-Wolves have each won 4 games when trailing at halftime. The Cavs have won 6.

Can anything be inferred by that.

Just for comparison sake. the Celtics are 13-10 when they trail at halftime - best in that category

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 03:00 PM
Vogel also took a risk. I think it was a smart one, but it didn't pay off. He decided to reduce the amount of practice time to save legs. If the guys were tired, they weren't going to be able to play. However, that meant that they couldn't work on this stuff in practice. Perhaps a few days to work on it will help.


They really look tired to me also. So we are faced with the worst of both worlds. They are dead tired (or at least playing like it) and they don't know what they are supposed to be doing

Since86
03-07-2011, 03:23 PM
I think most of it just has to do with fatigue. They're emotionally and phsyically tired.

This season was a throw away season, and stated as such three years ago when the whole three season plan was put in place.

I've made it a point whenever talking about *gasp* Jim to say that it isn't about W/L's it's about being able to move your basketball team forward by evaluating what you have in players, how they fit with each other, and what else is needed.

We are seeing all of that, without having to wade through the gimmicky crap system.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 03:34 PM
I've made it a point whenever talking about *gasp* Jim to say that it isn't about W/L's it's about being able to move your basketball team forward by evaluating what you have in players, how they fit with each other, and what else is needed.

We are seeing all of that, without having to wade through the gimmicky crap system.


OK, that is fine, but in my personal opinion, that could have been done before. This team needs significant player changes - but I would have said the exact same thing 2 months ago. (I fear the core has to change) But if it makes it clearer to more of you, then I say good, we can move into the offseason with a clearer vision of what we need to do.

Mackey_Rose
03-07-2011, 03:52 PM
OK, that is fine, but in my personal opinion, that could have been done before. This team needs significant player changes - but I would have said the exact same thing 2 months ago. (I fear the core has to change) But if it makes it clearer to more of you, then I say good, we can move into the offseason with a clearer vision of what we need to do.

If that is your personal opinion, why did you argue the exact opposite so long and hard?

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 03:58 PM
If that is your personal opinion, why did you argue the exact opposite so long and hard?


I'm not sure what you are saying. I've always argued that the talent or the mix of talent is the biggest problem with this team and changes are needed. Although the overall talent level is higher than last season and some of the younger players are better than the past two seasons.

Since86
03-07-2011, 04:01 PM
OK, that is fine, but in my personal opinion, that could have been done before. This team needs significant player changes - but I would have said the exact same thing 2 months ago. (I fear the core has to change) But if it makes it clearer to more of you, then I say good, we can move into the offseason with a clearer vision of what we need to do.

That's hard to do when you plant Josh McRoberts on the bench and play Troy Murphy 30+mins a night.

That's hard to do when you plant AJ Price on the bench and continue to play TJ Ford.

That's hard to do when you tell the press that Tyler Hansborough isn't ready.


Jim had his system. Players like Posey and Murphy fit his system. He played those players, over youth, because they fit his system.

It's hard to evaluate young players while they sit on the bench and watch 30year old players, who fit a system.

Jim thought the best way to move the franchise forward, was to play players who fit his system, even when those players weren't part of the long term plan. Screw development, screw evaluation. Win now, at all costs.

Too bad the players who fit his system didn't produce wins either.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 04:01 PM
I'm not sure what you are saying. I've always argued that the talent or the mix of talent is the biggest problem with this team and changes are needed. Although the overall talent level is higher than last season and some of the younger players are better than the past two seasons.


Totally agree. Although suggesting this team has limited talent can make some a pariah around here.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 04:31 PM
That's hard to do when you plant Josh McRoberts on the bench and play Troy Murphy 30+mins a night.

That's hard to do when you plant AJ Price on the bench and continue to play TJ Ford.

That's hard to do when you tell the press that Tyler Hansborough isn't ready.


Jim had his system. Players like Posey and Murphy fit his system. He played those players, over youth, because they fit his system.

It's hard to evaluate young players while they sit on the bench and watch 30year old players, who fit a system.

Jim thought the best way to move the franchise forward, was to play players who fit his system, even when those players weren't part of the long term plan. Screw development, screw evaluation. Win now, at all costs.

Too bad the players who fit his system didn't produce wins either.


First of all - I am not going to rehash the past several seasons. And I'm not getting into the different coaches. I am talking about being able as a fan to evaluate the talent on the team.

Second - my time frame was two months ago - Troy has been gone for 8 months

When the coaching change was made - almost two months ago, Price was playing, so was George and Tyler. Josh had played a lot the first 2 months of the season. Only player we had not seen was Lance and that started about two weeks ago

Almost all of my evaluations of the players have been confirmed since Vogel has taken over. OK, that is fine no problem being sure about things. Good to see the players under two different coaches.

BRushWithDeath
03-07-2011, 04:40 PM
Almost all of my evaluations of the players have been confirmed since Vogel has taken over. OK, that is fine no problem being sure about things.

I feel pretty confident in saying that since I've joined this board about 3 seasons ago every player evaluation I can recall you making has turned out to be inaccurate.

Since86
03-07-2011, 04:41 PM
First of all - I am not going to rehash the past several seasons. And I'm not getting into the different coaches. I am talking about being able as a fan to evaluate the talent on the team.

Second - my time frame was two months ago - Troy has been gone for 8 months

When the coaching change was made - almost two months ago, Price was playing, so was George and Tyler. Josh had played a lot the first 2 months of the season. Only player we had not seen was Lance and that started about two weeks ago

Almost all of my evaluations of the players have been confirmed since Vogel has taken over. OK, that is fine no problem being sure about things. Good to see the players under two different coaches.

I don't want to talk about the difference between the coaches. I want to talk realistically about what each player brings, what their weaknesses are, who fits the long term plans, and what else the team needs to become competitive.

None of that happens with Jim as the coach, for various reasons.

I don't care about the wins and losses. That is not why I wanted Jim gone. I wanted Jim gone, because when AJ starts playing, and playing well, he pulls him and gives a dumbass remark like "now we know what he has." Or like how he never gave Josh CONSISTENT minutes, (I like how you say he was playing but ignore the fact that he got jerked around more than a yo-yo).

My post wasn't supposed to derail to talk about what Jim did or didn't do.

My post was saying, Thank God we have a coach that actually allows his players to play so we can start answering the questions I laid out above.

Geesh.

cdash
03-07-2011, 04:49 PM
I feel pretty confident in saying that since I've joined this board about 3 seasons ago every player evaluation I can recall you making has turned out to be inaccurate.

I'm not disagreeing with you (I actually can't really think of any player evaluations UB made specifically), but can you give an example?

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 04:52 PM
I feel pretty confident in saying that since I've joined this board about 3 seasons ago every player evaluation I can recall you making has turned out to be inaccurate.


From two months is what I'm talking about. Really my point isn't whether my player evaluation are accurate or not or whether anyone else agrees with any of my evaluations or not, my only point is that I do not feel I needed a coahcing change to show me what we have on our team. Obviously almost everyone else in this forum has a different opinion - no problem.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 04:55 PM
I don't want to talk about the difference between the coaches. I want to talk realistically about what each player brings, what their weaknesses are, who fits the long term plans, and what else the team needs to become competitive.

None of that happens with Jim as the coach, for various reasons.

I don't care about the wins and losses. That is not why I wanted Jim gone. I wanted Jim gone, because when AJ starts playing, and playing well, he pulls him and gives a dumbass remark like "now we know what he has." Or like how he never gave Josh CONSISTENT minutes, (I like how you say he was playing but ignore the fact that he got jerked around more than a yo-yo).

My post wasn't supposed to derail to talk about what Jim did or didn't do.

My post was saying, Thank God we have a coach that actually allows his players to play so we can start answering the questions I laid out above.

Geesh.

OK, that is good, I'm glad the coaching change was made, because now we can talk about the players and their talent as we move forward. We don't have to have our discussion of players derailed by the comment well we don't know how so and so would do under a different coach - now we know and everyone has a much better vision of what our players are.

I don't see why you are arguing with me

Since86
03-07-2011, 04:57 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you (I actually can't really think of any player evaluations UB made specifically), but can you give an example?

The most famous example would be Josh McRoberts saying, that he doesn't have any NBA skills. Said that he doesn't even think he should be in the league, let alone get playing time.

That was his reaction to Jim's "irrelevant" comment, IIRC.

Since86
03-07-2011, 04:58 PM
OK, that is good, I'm glad the coaching change was made, because now we can talk about the players and their talent as we move forward. We don't have to have our discussion of players derailed by the comment well we don't know how so and so would do under a different coach - now we know and everyone has a much better vision of what our players are.

I don't see why you are arguing with me

Me arguing with you? You're the one that quoted me and started the conversation. Not the other way around.

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 05:04 PM
Me arguing with you? You're the one that quoted me and started the conversation. Not the other way around.


This comment by me is arguing.

OK, that is fine, but in my personal opinion, that could have been done before. This team needs significant player changes - but I would have said the exact same thing 2 months ago. (I fear the core has to change) But if it makes it clearer to more of you, then I say good, we can move into the offseason with a clearer vision of what we need to do.

Since86
03-07-2011, 05:16 PM
I know that's you arguing with me. That's why this comment by you, "I don't see why you are arguing with me" made me respond that you're arguing with me, not the other way around.....<!-- / message -->

Unclebuck
03-07-2011, 05:18 PM
The most famous example would be Josh McRoberts saying, that he doesn't have any NBA skills. Said that he doesn't even think he should be in the league, let alone get playing time.

That was his reaction to Jim's "irrelevant" comment, IIRC.


I said Josh would be out of the NBA within two years. it has only been a year since I said that (almost to the day) I did say that I didn't think Josh had any real NBA skills.

Guilty as charged.

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 05:19 PM
You guys need a room :laugh:

grace
03-07-2011, 07:06 PM
Debbie Downer just called. She says you guys need to cheer up!