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View Full Version : Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets



pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 10:51 PM
BLOW IT UP:laugh:

Mr_Smith
03-05-2011, 10:53 PM
Go portland! Beat charlotte! Thats all, goodnight

McKeyFan
03-05-2011, 10:53 PM
The glory hath departed.

DGPR
03-05-2011, 10:55 PM
Needs less DJ, and dare I say teams have now scouted Tyler and he's becoming quite ineffective.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 10:55 PM
This isn't one of those games where someone cues everyone and says, "Everyone calm down. It's not that bad."

This one was very, very bad.

-TJ Ford played like crap. Terrible, terrible game.

-We need talent. It's that simple. If we can't get two impact players while Lance and Paul significantly develop than we are probably screwed again next year.

ziplockfresh
03-05-2011, 10:57 PM
I think it's funny how Dahntay "I'm Kobe Bryant" Jones rips everybody's asses on the bench but he doesn't even know how to make a pass out of a double team and throws up nothing but garbage most of the time. Jones is the most selfish player on this team followed closely by Granger and that's not saying a whole lot about this team in general.

That's from the game thread..But someone tell me whether I'm delusional or not. Was Tyler not challenging double teams without hesitation..? Kick that **** out for a jumper..

PaceBalls
03-05-2011, 11:00 PM
This isn't one of those games where someone cues everyone and says, "Everyone calm down. It's not that bad."

This one was very, very bad.

-TJ Ford played like crap. Terrible, terrible game.

-We need talent. It's that simple. If we can't get two impact players while Lance and Paul significantly develop than we are probably screwed again next year.

:laugh:

Really, at this point, we have so many glaring problems with this team. It covers every position, except maybe SF. It is going to take a stroke of master genius on Bird's part to make a good team next year.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 11:01 PM
I want OJ Mayo on this team, but we needed nothing more than defense tonight and effort.

This team really seems like they don't care at all.

Oh yeah and DC with 0 assists.

Sookie
03-05-2011, 11:01 PM
talent is not the only thing that wins basketball games now, nor in the future.

This team has no leader. There's no defense in the starting unit, and there's barely an offense. Part of its on the coach. Part of its on the players.

DC's struggling so bad right now. Even if he is our point of the future, he's not mentally mature enough to handle that role right now. Brandon Rush does absolutely nothing, so let PG start. (not Dahntay..that'll just screw up the first unit more.)

All that said. This team is young. Seth warned everyone that games like this..stretches of games like this, would happen. They need to pull themselves out of it. But Vogel's got to be less stubborn about the lineups and such, and adjust to these things.

PaceBalls
03-05-2011, 11:01 PM
That's from the game thread..But someone tell me whether I'm delusional or not. Was Tyler not challenging double teams without hesitation..? Kick that **** out for a jumper..

What about Roy "airball hookshot" Hibbert?

pwee31
03-05-2011, 11:02 PM
Go portland! Beat charlotte! Thats all, goodnight

Charlotte might be more deserving than us right now. Lucky for us they traded Gerald Wallace in a rebuilding type move, and Stephen Jackson is nursing a hamstring that will make him miss some time.

Top 7 in the East are locked. Whoever of the Pacers, Bobcats, Bucks, and Pistons can get hot, or has and favorable schedule that will let them walk into a win or 2... will end up with the 8th seed

PacerGuy
03-05-2011, 11:03 PM
Promoting Vogel was kinda like an old girl friend getting a boob job:

Susre you have something new & exciting to play with for a while, but in the end she is the same ol' B**** you broke up with!

PaceBalls
03-05-2011, 11:03 PM
talent is not the only thing that wins basketball games now, nor in the future.

This team has no leader. There's no defense in the starting unit, and there's barely an offense. Part of its on the coach. Part of its on the players.

DC's struggling so bad right now. Even if he is our point of the future, he's not mentally mature enough to handle that role right now. Brandon Rush does absolutely nothing, so let PG start. (not Dahntay..that'll just screw up the first unit more.)

All that said. This team is young. Seth warned everyone that games like this..stretches of games like this, would happen. They need to pull themselves out of it. But Vogel's got to be less stubborn about the lineups and such, and adjust to these things.

I predicted we'd go 12-19 to finish the season after the AS break, but I still reserve the right to complain when we lose. :cool:

AesopRockOn
03-05-2011, 11:05 PM
I need advice. I've got one team left to choose for limited League Pass Broadband. Thought I was going to choose between the Sixers and the Bobcats, considering they are the two closest teams to us in the playoff race. But we probably don't come close to catching the Sixers. And the B'cats are so talent deficient, I can't see them making the playoffs. Should I go for entertainment and choose the Knicks as the last team?

Tl,dr: Should I pick Bobcats, Sixers, or Knicks as my final League Pass team?


Oh, and watching this game was like getting a colonic with a spiked tube.

speakout4
03-05-2011, 11:06 PM
:laugh:

Really, at this point, we have so many glaring problems with this team. It covers every position, except maybe SF. It is going to take a stroke of master genius on Bird's part to make a good team next year.
Some of the goons have to start. A way back the knicks had a second team that generally beat the first team in practice. Put Danny with the starters or goons and that team will win.

PaceBalls
03-05-2011, 11:07 PM
I need advice. I've got one team left to choose for limited League Pass Broadband. Thought I was going to choose between the Sixers and the Bobcats, considering they are the two closest teams to us in the playoff race. But we probably don't come close to catching the Sixers. And the B'cats are so talent deficient, I can't see them making the playoffs. Should I go for entertainment and choose the Knicks as the last team?

Tl,dr: Should I pick Bobcats, Sixers, or Knicks as my finall League Pass team?

Oh, and watching this game was like getting a colonic with a spiked tube.

The Sixers are the most intriguing team in the NBA right now I think. I'd go with them.

CooperManning
03-05-2011, 11:07 PM
I haven't been able to watch the last couple of games. Lance seems to rack up assists. Is his passing that good?

McKeyFan
03-05-2011, 11:08 PM
I haven't been able to watch the last couple of games. Lance seems to rack up assists. Is his passing that good?

yep

Sookie
03-05-2011, 11:08 PM
Some of the goons have to start. A way back the knicks had a second team that generally beat the first team in practice. Put Danny with the starters or goons and that team will win.

AJ, Tyler, Jeff, and Dahntay are the four most mentally tough guys on the team. That's a major reason why they are successful. The starters need an injection of that.

CooperManning
03-05-2011, 11:09 PM
I need advice. I've got one team left to choose for limited League Pass Broadband. Thought I was going to choose between the Sixers and the Bobcats, considering they are the two closest teams to us in the playoff race. But we probably don't come close to catching the Sixers. And the B'cats are so talent deficient, I can't see them making the playoffs. Should I go for entertainment and choose the Knicks as the last team?

Tl,dr: Should I pick Bobcats, Sixers, or Knicks as my final League Pass team?


Oh, and watching this game was like getting a colonic with a spiked tube.

Bobcats. The Knicks will be on national TV a fair amount and you might want to root against the Bobcats as the season winds down.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 11:09 PM
I haven't been able to watch the last couple of games. Lance seems to rack up assists. Is his passing that good?

proably the best on the team might even be better than Josh

Scot Pollard
03-05-2011, 11:09 PM
THE PACERS ARE JUST A BUNCH OF SORRY ****S!

"Oh lets give the Rockets a big lead then we'll do our best to get back into it"

Any team that's below 500 and gets into the playoffs should be pretty embarrassed and better improve that the following season.

WE BETTER!

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 11:09 PM
The Miami heat lost by 30 last night, guess they need to change everything too.

ziplockfresh
03-05-2011, 11:10 PM
I was watching the Rockets' broadcast and Drexler was commenting on how Hibbert was a black hole. Whether he shoots, or fumbles it, he's never going to give it back. Paraphrased, but it was something to that extent.

RM31
03-05-2011, 11:10 PM
I just wanna say:God.Plz judge me...

PS:
Somebody said last night all the team follow Rush to play in the club?
Is that true?

PaceBalls
03-05-2011, 11:11 PM
Some of the goons have to start. A way back the knicks had a second team that generally beat the first team in practice. Put Danny with the starters or goons and that team will win.

I just wonder if Frank has those kind of balls. He has to keep the team on his side. I would be interested in seeing PG play with the starters and Danny with the Goons. I don't know how Frank could do that without getting everyone's feathers ruffled.

It is one quality I actually liked about Jim. He didn't give a crap about player's egos. Frank might not either, but he doesn't exactly have tenure.

Scot Pollard
03-05-2011, 11:13 PM
It's no wonder why we're last in attendance.

Hoosiers don't want to come out and see this **** of an NBA team.

If we were neck and neck with Philly, that would be a fun game on Tuesday and a hot ticket.

PaceBalls
03-05-2011, 11:13 PM
I just wanna say:God.Plz judge me...

PS:
Somebody said last night all the team follow Rush to play in the club?
Is that true?

:laugh: I hear ya...

Uh not sure on the PS. The question didn't come out right I think. Are you saying the Pacers all went to the night club with Brandon Rush the night before the game?

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 11:14 PM
AJ, Tyler, Jeff, and Dahntay are the four most mentally tough guys on the team. That's a major reason why they are successful. The starters need an injection of that.

I wish they had higher b ball IQ specialy Dantay and Tyler

speakout4
03-05-2011, 11:15 PM
AJ, Tyler, Jeff, and Dahntay are the four most mentally tough guys on the team. That's a major reason why they are successful. The starters need an injection of that.
Agree. Mental toughness is huge. I think PG and Lance have that too.

Sookie
03-05-2011, 11:16 PM
I wish they had higher b ball IQ specialy Dantay and Tyler

Dahntay and Tyler don't really think when they play..

tflo
03-05-2011, 11:17 PM
You know I fell sorry for this loss, not for the Indiana Pacers ,but all Indiana Pacers fans who post here day and night. We are all hoping that one day we will wake up and have a team that will compete. All I can say is what a disappointment this team has been. you guys deserve a lot better.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 11:17 PM
Dahntay and Tyler don't really think when they play..

ok I wish they had better insticts. I bet a lot of people do it on insticts. But the game is slower for them Tyler and Dantay plays way to fast.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 11:21 PM
What do you guys expect from a bunch of rookie through third year players?

kester99
03-05-2011, 11:22 PM
MikeWellsNBA Mike Wells
Things are boiling in Pacerland. A lot of screaming and yelling could be heard from inside the lockerroom in the halls at the Toyota Center.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

tflo
03-05-2011, 11:23 PM
You know I fell sorry for this loss, not for the Indiana Pacers ,but all Indiana Pacers fans who post here day and night. We are all hoping that one day we will wake up and have a team that will compete. All I can say is what a disappointment this team has been. you guys deserve a lot better.

Sookie
03-05-2011, 11:24 PM
MikeWellsNBA Mike Wells
Things are boiling in Pacerland. A lot of screaming and yelling could be heard from inside the lockerroom in the halls at the Toyota Center.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Better than being apathetic.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 11:24 PM
MikeWellsNBA Mike Wells
Things are boiling in Pacerland. A lot of screaming and yelling could be heard from inside the lockerroom in the halls at the Toyota Center.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Uh oh.. That doesn't sound good.

There's a difference between leadership that brings people together, and there's a difference between leadership that tears things apart in my book. However, the players that don't care deserve every single bashing they get from the teammates that don't have the same leash as them. But as Sookie said, it's better than being apathetic.

Hopefully this brings the team together more, and Vogel changes some things in the lineup by Tuesday.. Starting with Darren and Rush.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 11:28 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/crate.html

with David Morway talking about the team

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 11:30 PM
Uh oh.. That doesn't sound good.

There's a difference between leadership that brings people together, and there's a difference between leadership that tears things apart in my book. However, the players that don't care deserve every single bashing they get from the teammates that don't have the same leash as them. But as Sookie said, it's better than being apathetic.

Hopefully this brings the team together more, and Vogel changes some things in the lineup by Tuesday.. Starting with Darren and Rush.

I think it is a good thing. It shows that they don't like losing. It shows they don't like terrible play.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 11:33 PM
I think it is a good thing. It shows that they don't like losing. It shows they don't like terrible play.

What if this just makes things worse though? Isn't there a chance of that happening?

Scot Pollard
03-05-2011, 11:34 PM
Just as long as there's no fist fights we're fine.

It's a good thing. Maybe guys will be so annoyed that they play better.

ziplockfresh
03-05-2011, 11:35 PM
What if this just makes things worse though? Isn't there a chance of that happening?


I think that's where maturity is key. They need to look at themselves and not take the criticism personally. I'm sure there are no players in the league who maliciously attack the confidence of others..At least not intentionally. It may seem harsh, but it's frustration with good intentions.

speakout4
03-05-2011, 11:36 PM
Brandon is just like Troy--just goes through the motions.

Brandon and Josh are reluctant shooters which sucks if they are starters. People hate Dun but he helped get the offense started.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 11:38 PM
Brandon is just like Troy--just goes through the motions.

Brandon and Josh are reluctant shooters which sucks if they are starters. People hate Dun but he helped get the offense started.

Which is why they shouldn't play together. Which means PG should start. Like I've been saying for how long now...

Sookie
03-05-2011, 11:41 PM
Josh and Rush can play together, if our other three are playing well and scoring well.

They haven't been, so Josh and Rush become a problem

speakout4
03-05-2011, 11:45 PM
Josh and Rush can play together, if our other three are playing well and scoring well.

They haven't been, so Josh and Rush become a problem
Asking alot for the other 3 to play well. Getting 3 out of 5 starters to play well is not hard but getting the same 3 to play well is. On this team, we need the SG to be an offensive weapon. Vogel is going to have to start PG preferably or DJ.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 11:49 PM
King24George Paul George
I just wanna get in the gym!

:lol: Good 2 hear i guess

PacersRule
03-05-2011, 11:54 PM
MikeWellsNBA Mike Wells
Things are boiling in Pacerland. A lot of screaming and yelling could be heard from inside the lockerroom in the halls at the Toyota Center.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Wonder who's yelling and what's the sides. I really hope it's not DJ and Tyler yelling at others. Of course I'm just looking at it from a fan's point of view and have no inside knowledge of the situation, but this "Goon squad" talk is starting to bother me. Mike Wells had an article recently about the Goon squad http://www.indystar.com/article/20110304/SPORTS04/103040334/1062/SPORTS04/Pacers-2nd-unit-players-proud-they-get-after-not-pretty-way

Two quotes that I particularly didn't like was from Tyler: "We just take pride in getting after it and busting the first unit; that's the way it is sometimes." The second one is from AJ: "It's members only. When they switch it up and put one of the first-unit guys in during practice, things don't go as well. We're cool with our personnel on the Goon Squad." I mean, all of them are on the same team, regardless if you're on the "goon squad" or you're one of the starters. And then Hansbrough has to go out and say that Lance isn't in the squad because he's not getting consistent minutes yet. IMO I just don't feel comfortable with the quotes because they seem like they're dividing the team. So who are the players that are not one of the starting five and not one of the goon squad? Are they just left out? Anyway, I just hope I'm reading too much into it and this yelling and screaming isn't between the starters and the bench.

speakout4
03-05-2011, 11:56 PM
Wonder who's yelling and what's the sides. I really hope it's not DJ and Tyler yelling at others. Of course I'm just looking at it from a fan's point of view and have no inside knowledge of the situation, but this "Goon squad" talk is starting to bother me. Mike Wells had an article recently about the Goon squad http://www.indystar.com/article/20110304/SPORTS04/103040334/1062/SPORTS04/Pacers-2nd-unit-players-proud-they-get-after-not-pretty-way

Two quotes that I particularly didn't like was from Tyler: "We just take pride in getting after it and busting the first unit; that's the way it is sometimes." The second one is from AJ: "It's members only. When they switch it up and put one of the first-unit guys in during practice, things don't go as well. We're cool with our personnel on the Goon Squad." I mean, all of them are on the same team, regardless if you're on the "goon squad" or you're one of the starters. And then Hansbrough has to go out and say that Lance isn't in the squad because he's not getting consistent minutes yet. IMO I just don't feel comfortable with the quotes because they seem like they're dividing the team. So who are the players that are not one of the starting five and not one of the goon squad? Are they just left out? Anyway, I just hope I'm reading too much into it and this yelling and screaming isn't between the starters and the bench.
Obviously the starters don't have any pride and now you're begrudging the goonies their pride. I like tyler's leadership.

Professor S
03-06-2011, 12:00 AM
Any reaction from Vogel in the post game presser?

Foul on Smits
03-06-2011, 12:02 AM
Just as long as there's no fist fights we're fine.

It's a good thing. Maybe guys will be so annoyed that they play better.

The funny thing is, when i was watching tonights game, I was thinking " You know what, go fight somebody! " If you cant beat anyone playing basketball, atleast show me some life and go fight someone. Foul someone hard. Shove someone. Show some pride. This team is getting dominated. I mean, if Kevin Durant keeps driving the ball to the basket, at what point does one of our guys step up, be a ****ing man and put that ******* on his back! DO SOMETHING!

If i'm Vogel ( easy for me to say obvioulsy ), I start all the bench players the next game. Lance, PG, Ty, Jeff, Posey you wanna start? I'm sure Posey would love to go out there and give some effort. I bet Solomon Jones would atleast provide effort. I'm not saying the bench is better, but right now, someone needs to send these starters a message. Vogel needs to let these guys know that this half assed horrible basketball is not acceptable and if they're gunna be starters on a " NBA pro team " , then they need to play like NBA Pro's.

Enough with this ****. I'm so tired of the same ****. And **** Larry Bird. I dont want that guy making trades and spending the cap space. He hasnt done **** for 4 years. Pritchard would work a miracle with the cap space we have. He needs to be the guy.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 12:04 AM
Danny is the only two players with the right to yell at anyone tonight. But if it's from the Goon squad, at least it's coming from players with intensity.

I've got a feeling it's Dahntay and Jeff though. Seeing as they were the ones yelling in the game. And I've gotta say, Dahntay shouldn't be here.

PacersRule
03-06-2011, 12:04 AM
Obviously the starters don't have any pride and now you're begrudging the goonies their pride. I like tyler's leadership.

If that's what you think, that's fine with me. Make no mistake I love the second unit's play and energy recently, I just don't think forming a particular small "group" within this "team" is a good thing.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 12:07 AM
If that's what you think, that's fine with me. Make no mistake I love the second unit's play and energy recently, I just don't think forming a particular small "group" within this "team" is a good thing.

They are the only guys with any bit of chemistry right now. And Vogel isn't playing them enough together in games.

BTW, I think Tyler was joking about the Lance thing (Ish, Lance isn't a part of the goon squad right now.)

And Price's point was that this unit plays well together, and mixing a starter in doesn't work as well. That's not being exclusive, it's making an observation.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 12:08 AM
They are the only guys with any bit of chemistry right now. And Vogel isn't playing them enough together in games.

BTW, I think Tyler was joking about the Lance thing (Ish, Lance isn't a part of the goon squad right now.)

And Price's point was that this unit plays well together, and mixing a starter in doesn't work as well. That's not being exclusive, it's making an observation.

If Price was a leader no way he would alinate his teammates like that.
"its members only" wtf this isnt a country club

tflo
03-06-2011, 12:11 AM
we can move this player with that player and try this offence and this defense,but I think every combination has be tried , it is not going work. What we need is a complete change this offseason.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 12:12 AM
we can move this player with that player and try this offence and this defense,but I think every combination has be tried , it is not going work. What we need is a complete change this offseason.

BLOW IT UP!!!:D

Sookie
03-06-2011, 12:17 AM
If Price was a leader no way he would alinate his teammates like that.
"its members only" wtf this isnt a country club

Dude..it was a light hearted article. It was essentially Tyler and AJ being "GTFO" *giggle* Those five players have formed an identity that they are proud of. All Hans was saying was you gotta earn it to be a part of it. And heck, good for them. How is this any different than calling a group of guys on a team "the big three"

They probably are annoyed with their teammates though. It probably sucks to have to come in every night and dig the team out of a 10+ point hole.

joeyd
03-06-2011, 12:30 AM
Danny is the only two players with the right to yell at anyone tonight. But if it's from the Goon squad, at least it's coming from players with intensity. I've got a feeling it's Dahntay and Jeff though. Seeing as they were the ones yelling in the game. And I've gotta say, Dahntay shouldn't be here.

Can't really tell who the leaders on this team are without really being in on the locker room conversations. Could be Jeff, could be Danny. Doesn't have to be someone that is a starter or a star of the team. But either way, you hope that the important points are being made is such a way that it doesn't alienate your teammates.

As for the other posts about starting the Goon Squad, starting them would mean more minutes for them, which may or may not be bad on an individual player basis (e.g., Jeff may not be able to take the extra pounding that 30+ minutes per game might bring). Why risk injury or prolonged debilitation?

On the other hand, many posters have complained that the younsters should play more. Although we could have to endure tons more blowouts that way.

ziplockfresh
03-06-2011, 12:33 AM
Can't really tell who the leaders on this team are without really being in on the locker room conversations. Could be Jeff, could be Danny. Doesn't have to be someone that is a starter or a star of the team. But either way, you hope that the important points are being made is such a way that it doesn't alienate your teammates.

As for the other posts about starting the Goon Squad, starting them would mean more minutes for them, which may or may not be bad on an individual player basis (e.g., Jeff may not be able to take the extra pounding that 30+ minutes per game might bring). Why risk injury or prolonged debilitation?

On the other hand, many posters have complained that the younsters should play more. Although we could have to endure tons more blowouts that way.


Despite it being a critical point in the season, to put George in the starting line up could be great. I'm sure we would all be satisfied with an effort by Vogel to introduce a player into either line. It doesn't have to be permanent, but test it out one game.

RM31
03-06-2011, 12:34 AM
:laugh: I hear ya...

Uh not sure on the PS. The question didn't come out right I think. Are you saying the Pacers all went to the night club with Brandon Rush the night before the game?


Yes...Bingo!ha

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 12:42 AM
Oh irrationality, how I hate thee

Bball
03-06-2011, 12:52 AM
I don't think Jeff Foster particularly helps the defense.... and his offense is questionable at best...

...I'm not sure I like seeing Lance get the minutes he's getting unless we're giving up on the playoffs and building for the future. I think Lance either should've been getting minutes all along and slowly building them this season, or they needed to consider keeping him on ice the entire year... and/or just dressing him for garbage minutes this season. What I'm saying is I think he throws a monkey wrench into the works trying to suddenly carve out meaningful minutes for him.

I think it throws a kink into the chemistry. I also think the 'not happening' trade talk leaking out hurt chemistry.

To me, the team is actually being ran like it's a developing team and the playoffs aren't really the goal now. I'm fine with that to a point, although I think for this team the playoffs are realistically a goal without O'Brien here. So it surprises me to see the organization actually acting like the playoffs aren't really 'the' goal afterall. Where was that attitude during the 4 wasted O'Brien years? (Technically, year 1 maybe wasn't wasted... the rest IMHO were a waste of everyone's time).

There's going to be ups and downs when you're finding developmental minutes for players and using your youth. It's hard to complain when I think that's what should've been done for some time. And with the improved coaching, and smart use of our players, the playoffs were a realistic thought for this season (once O'Brien was gone). But instead we seemed to have decided developing players is more important than the playoffs this season. Possibly, that attitude has also created a chemistry issue among the players.

Oh well... I just want them to stick with a real plan and see it through. If it's developmental minutes and taking our lumps, so be it. But then let's not panic if the developmental minutes approach leads to some losses and the loss of the playoff goal.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 12:54 AM
I don't think Jeff Foster particularly helps the defense.... and his offense is questionable at best...

...I'm not sure I like seeing Lance get the minutes he's getting unless we're giving up on the playoffs and building for the future. I think Lance either should've been getting minutes all along and slowly building them this season, or they needed to consider keeping him on ice the entire year... and/or just dressing him for garbage minutes this season. What I'm saying is I think he throws a monkey wrench into the works trying to suddenly carve out meaningful minutes for him.

I think it throws a kink into the chemistry. I also think the 'not happening' trade talk leaking out hurt chemistry.

To me, the team is actually being ran like it's a developing team and the playoffs aren't really the goal now. I'm fine with that to a point, although I think for this team the playoffs are realistically a goal without O'Brien here. So it surprises me to see the organization actually acting like the playoffs aren't really 'the' goal afterall. Where was that attitude during the 4 wasted O'Brien years? (Technically, year 1 maybe wasn't wasted... the rest IMHO were a waste of everyone's time).

There's going to be ups and downs when you're finding developmental minutes for players and using your youth. It's hard to complain when I think that's what should've been done for some time. And with the improved coaching, and smart use of our players, the playoffs were a realistic thought for this season (once O'Brien was gone). But instead we seemed to have decided developing players is more important than the playoffs this season. Possibly, that attitude has also created a chemistry issue among the players.

Oh well... I just want them to stick with a real plan and see it through. If it's developmental minutes and taking our lumps, so be it. But then let's not panic if the developmental minutes approach leads to some losses and the loss of the playoff goal.

They would have been playing Lance all along but they wanted to wait for his court case.

pwee31
03-06-2011, 12:57 AM
The Miami heat lost by 30 last night, guess they need to change everything too.

The Miami Heat aren't 8 games under .500 and hanging on for dear life to the last playoff spot.

Don't think everything needs change, but a few things need looked at when you're getting embarrassed like we have, and the only player out is Dunleavy. And the 1st unit has been playing terrible.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 01:00 AM
The glory hath departed.
You mean that rolls have been slowed? :p


I peeked into the game thread...good lord. How about we stop losing our s*** over the ups and downs of developing and evaluating the talent. JOB needed to do this 2 years ago and now we are suffering for it.

I'm really sick of seeing UB make cracks that suggest that any of us thought that firing JOB was due to the wins and losses.

Listen Buck, I'm talking directly to you on this one - you darn well know that I explicitly told my ticket rep that I DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE WINS AND LOSSES. Again that's DID NOT CARE.

I said that I wanted to stop worrying about the W-L record and start worrying about getting the young kids on the court so they could get on with learning how to play NBA ball AND so that we could get on with evaluating their chances as NBA talent.

How can you know what needs to be fixed if you don't find out what is broken?


So as frustrating as some of their poor play can be, as much as it sucks seeing guys like Foster dragging due to the losses, it's also exciting and interesting to see those moments when things start to click.

90'sNBARocked
03-06-2011, 01:02 AM
wow

what happened to the team that almost beat Miami on the road?

Bball
03-06-2011, 01:07 AM
They would have been playing Lance all along but they wanted to wait for his court case.

I understand that but then they either needed to come to a different decision and start using him situationally much sooner, or decide to put him on ice for the season... or at best spot minutes in blowouts and such once the court decision was handed down.

I don't understand putting him on ice for 2/3rds of the season because of the court case and then suddenly throwing him to the wolves in the stretch run for the playoffs. ...Unless TPTB have decided the playoffs are not really the goal they've been in the past afterall... even if the playoff chances were probably more realistic now than at any time over the past several seasons.

But, like I said, I'm fine with developing players and seeing what we have. I think the playoffs are fools gold for weak teams anyway. It's just this handling of Lance I find odd.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 01:07 AM
PS:
Somebody said last night all the team follow Rush to play in the club?
Is that true?
Who said that?

They flew out of Dallas just after the game. Maybe they went out here in Houston I suppose but my guess is that they just hit the hotel by that time of night.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 01:11 AM
wow

what happened to the team that almost beat Miami on the road?
Youth = Inconsistency

Typically it's little mistakes that blow up into bad plays, especially sloppy offense or poor shot selection that becomes transition offense. Like Tyler getting stuffed to the floor tonight, goes the other way and Tyler commits the foul. Or Lance throwing that horrible pass right to the Rockets.

And Roy could be a whole book on inconsistency himself.


You don't get better for free. It's a long grind.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 01:16 AM
You mean that rolls have been slowed? :p


I peeked into the game thread...good lord. How about we stop losing our s*** over the ups and downs of developing and evaluating the talent. JOB needed to do this 2 years ago and now we are suffering for it.
I'm really sick of seeing UB make cracks that suggest that any of us thought that firing JOB was due to the wins and losses.

Listen Buck, I'm talking directly to you on this one - you darn well know that I explicitly told my ticket rep that I DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE WINS AND LOSSES. Again that's DID NOT CARE.

I said that I wanted to stop worrying about the W-L record and start worrying about getting the young kids on the court so they could get on with learning how to play NBA ball AND so that we could get on with evaluating their chances as NBA talent.

How can you know what needs to be fixed if you don't find out what is broken?


So as frustrating as some of their poor play can be, as much as it sucks seeing guys like Foster dragging due to the losses, it's also exciting and interesting to see those moments when things start to click.

Thats why I am so frustruted this needed to be done a long time ago like 5 years ago. We didnt rebulit the right way and it is so frusting to do it so late. Danny was 25 two years ago I fell like we are wasting his career. We should have been through this phase of growing pains and devloping young talent and learning to play the right way. But no we had to trade for Murphleavy instead of rebuliding :censored: the FO for JOB and not rebuliding sooner this is so frustrating.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 01:17 AM
Youth = Inconsistency

Typically it's little mistakes that blow up into bad plays, especially sloppy offense or poor shot selection that becomes transition offense. Like Tyler getting stuffed to the floor tonight, goes the other way and Tyler commits the foul. Or Lance throwing that horrible pass right to the Rockets.

And Roy could be a whole book on inconsistency himself.


You don't get better for free. It's a long grind.

Thank you! Like I've been saying, what do people expect from a bunch of rookie through third year players. Let's be realistic here.

While I do think there are flaws in our offensive and defensive scheme (mainly they help defense), the youth on this team is going to give us games like this and games like playing against Miami.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 01:21 AM
Thats why I am so frustruted this needed to be done a long time ago. We didnt rebulit the ight way and it is so frusting to do it so late. Danny was 25 two years ago I fell like we are wasting his career. We should have been through this phase of growing pains and devloping young talent and learning to play the right way. But no we had to trade for Murphleavy instead of rebuliding :censored: the FO this is so frustrating.

We had Murphleavy before then... And Seth is saying the young guys needed to be playing more two years ago. Not that we needed to be trading people for young talent.

You can't just trade people like this is 2k11. Jackson and Harrington didn't exactly have the best of trade values then. **** is a lot easier said than done. Was it a great trade? Of course not, but we are turning it into DC and cap space this off season.

And Danny is fine. He is 27 and has plenty of years left in him.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 01:22 AM
We had Murphleavy before then... And Seth is saying the young guys needed to be playing more two years ago. Not that we needed to be trading people for young talent.

You can't just trade people like this is 2k11. Jackson and Harrington didn't exactly have the best of trade values then. **** is a lot easier said than done. Was it a great trade? Of course not, but we are turning it into DC and cap space this off season.

And Danny is fine. He is 27 and has plenty of years left in him.

look at my edit and re read it. We could have got an expiring and a pick for them. But instead we tried to put a band aid on the franchise instead of rebuliding the right way.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 01:26 AM
Josh and Rush can play together, if our other three are playing well and scoring well.

They haven't been, so Josh and Rush become a problem
Exactly. They are fine. Tonight Rush did 2 things wrong - he bit on some jab steps by KMart and sometimes went under screens and got burned for it. Josh was great till near the very end when it was long since over.

The problem is 100% that DC, Roy and Danny are HORRIBLE as your main scorers right now. Roy is just lost, DC makes bad choices and can't hit shots (or slow down any opposing PGs) and Danny is way, way off his game.

Rush and Josh are your COMPLIMENTARY players. Blaming them is like blaming catsup for your s**** hamburger. The complimentary guys can make things better, but they aren't there to be the main guy.

Who was the scoring machine next to Reggie at the 3? It WAS Person or Detlef and they were traded. Why? Because the old saying is there aren't enough balls to go around out there.

Look at the scoring and shooting numbers coming from a WING and PF right now. Now go pull up the numbers on the scoring/FG% (and assists) from a WING (McKey) and PF (Dale) when you had Jax, Reggie and Rik starting.

You didn't say you needed to upgrade Dale when Reggie was lighting it up or Rik was rolling.


You can swap Rush for a big scorer, but then you'll need to trade Granger too. You can't have all 5 starters taking 16 FGAs, it's just not realistic.

Freaking Josh went 6-11 and that wasn't enough offense for some of you? That's just plain dumb, that's NOT RATIONAL basketball thinking. Not when your all-star, Team USA scoring machine is going 4-13 right next to him.



BTW, you guys jocking for Paul to start, he got SMOKED by Jason Terry the other night and got burned not just by Martin but by Lee too. And Lance...well I don't know if he understands why there are two goals on the court.

I don't mind this from either of them at this point because they are developing, and Paul especially made several good plays as well. But how the F you see the games from them and say they need to start because then things will go well when things weren't going well with them out there for long stretches is beyond me.

Grass is greener for some people I suppose.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 01:30 AM
Youth = Inconsistency

Typically it's little mistakes that blow up into bad plays, especially sloppy offense or poor shot selection that becomes transition offense. Like Tyler getting stuffed to the floor tonight, goes the other way and Tyler commits the foul. Or Lance throwing that horrible pass right to the Rockets.

And Roy could be a whole book on inconsistency himself.


You don't get better for free. It's a long grind.

Thanks for the sanity. Really.

I think there are some changes that need to be made, but I understand why Vogel doesn't want to shift around starting lineups, and he wants to make sure all the young guys play..and loves Dahntay. But I think the rotation is too big.

I also think that you have to find an inbetween with going easy on the guys and being a dictator.

Maybe not start the "goons" ..but heck, if yet another game goes by where the starters get down early..why not start them to begin the second half. That's what just about every college coach would do. My point is, the young guys don't learn anything if you don't let them do anything, but they also don't learn anything if you enable them to do the wrong things repeatedly.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 01:32 AM
Exactly. They are fine. Tonight Rush did 2 things wrong - he bit on some jab steps by KMart and sometimes went under screens and got burned for it. Josh was great till near the very end when it was long since over.

The problem is 100% that DC, Roy and Danny are HORRIBLE as your main scorers right now. Roy is just lost, DC makes bad choices and can't hit shots (or slow down any opposing PGs) and Danny is way, way off his game.

Rush and Josh are your COMPLIMENTARY players. Blaming them is like blaming catsup for your s**** hamburger. The complimentary guys can make things better, but they aren't there to be the main guy.

Who was the scoring machine next to Reggie at the 3? It WAS Person or Detlef and they were traded. Why? Because the old saying is there aren't enough balls to go around out there.

Look at the scoring and shooting numbers coming from a WING and PF right now. Now go pull up the numbers on the scoring/FG% (and assists) from a WING (McKey) and PF (Dale) when you had Jax, Reggie and Rik starting.

You didn't say you needed to upgrade Dale when Reggie was lighting it up or Rik was rolling.


You can swap Rush for a big scorer, but then you'll need to trade Granger too. You can't have all 5 starters taking 16 FGAs, it's just not realistic.

Freaking Josh went 6-11 and that wasn't enough offense for some of you? That's just plain dumb, that's NOT RATIONAL basketball thinking. Not when your all-star, Team USA scoring machine is going 4-13 right next to him.



BTW, you guys jocking for Paul to start, he got SMOKED by Jason Terry the other night and got burned not just by Martin but by Lee too. And Lance...well I don't know if he understands why there are two goals on the court.

I don't mind this from either of them at this point because they are developing, and Paul especially made several good plays as well. But how the F you see the games from them and say they need to start because then things will go well when things weren't going well with them out there for long stretches is beyond me.

Grass is greener for some people I suppose.

Rush and Josh are role players we need to upgrade the staring postions. We need guys who are good both ways and have more talent. Josh and Rush most likely wont be here going forward should be intersting to see what we do.

thefeistyone
03-06-2011, 01:36 AM
Remember back when we had JOB and everyone would say losing wouldn't hurt so bad if we got to see the young players play and develop?

Well welcome to the young players developing

This is what we're going to get...they aren't going to be consistent, they are going to make a lots of mistake, it's all part of learning how to play in this league.

We played 3 teams better than us on the road. Is losing 3 in a row that surprising to anyone? Sure it would have been nice to steal 1, but it didn't happen. It's not the end of the world.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 01:38 AM
Remember back when we had JOB and everyone would say losing wouldn't hurt so bad if we got to see the young players play and develop?

Well welcome to the young players developing

This is what we're going to get...they aren't going to be consistent, they are going to make a lots of mistake, it's all part of learning how to play in this league.

We played 3 teams better than us on the road. Is losing 3 in a row that surprising to anyone? Sure it would have been nice to steal 1, but it didn't happen. It's not the end of the world.

I'm not mad we lost 3 in a row. Im mad at the effort or lack of effort in 2 of the 3 games.

PaceBalls
03-06-2011, 01:40 AM
wow

what happened to the team that almost beat Miami on the road?

What happened to that team that BEAT Miami on the road??

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 01:42 AM
I understand Speakout suggesting that you can't always have the same guy leading your scoring, but to suggest that on any given night you can't count on at least 1 of what is supposed to be your 3 main offensive weapons to the point that Josh "only" going 6-11 costs you a game is just dumb.

3 main scorers means that on any given night at least one of those guys will have it going.

What, now it's normal for Lebron, Wade and Bosh to all go 4-14 and 5-18, and the Heat need to upgrade Chalmers to cover for the common nights when that happens? Bull****

Teams are getting "big 3s". No, Roy is not Bosh, but Roy IS one of the main offensive weapons you want your offense to work off of and lately he's not playing well.

Cripes, Danny was getting torched by Chase Budinger, and while I'm a big Chase fan it's not because I thought he would be better than Granger by year 2.


Look at the MONEY DISTRIBUTION, you aren't paying Rush and Josh as though they are big scorers. You are paying Dun, TJ and Danny like they are main scorers. You say "if Rush can slow Martin so Danny can outscore him and if Josh can slow Scola and maybe chip in some passes and/or points enough that Roy outscores Scola, then we can probably win".

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 01:50 AM
But Miami does think they need better role players than Chamlers and company. It is a team. It isnt just your main 3 guys struggle so the whole team will struggle. We need better players 1-12 option wise. In time im sure Paul, Lance, AJ , and others can get better but it wont be eoght we need to add talent. Just like damm near every other team in the league is looking to add talent

CableKC
03-06-2011, 03:16 AM
I don't know what many of you are complaining about....you wanted the young Players to play..this is the realistic result.......we are losing games that we are expected to lose against Teams that are way better then us.

Our future core of Players not only are playing key minutes in the rotation....heck, Dunleavy is even out of the lineup....what else do you want?

If there hasn't been a greater example of "be careful what you wish for" based off of what we are seeing with our young core struggle ( which should be expected now that we are out of our "easy" part of the schedule....specifically after the 23rd when we played the Jazz ), then I don't know what is.

Expect more losing....get used to it....cuz we're a very young Team with several holes in the lineup.

cdash
03-06-2011, 03:40 AM
We'll be alright.

mcampbellarch
03-06-2011, 03:43 AM
Painful. But nice to see PD guys on TV. The board seems to be getting plenty of good attention. Deservedly so and thanks to you guys who make it possible.

The player development element is the only solace here. Seeing Roy get into it a little with Chuckwagon showed an effort to maintain a bit of dignity.

2 things making me crazy. The ball stopping at the 3pt line on offense and letting the opposing d set up, and Jones not passing the ball. DJ semi-rightly feels like he has to create a shot. And DC may be stuck in PnR mode. Is it me or does the offense look like a confusion between the previous motion offense and botched PnR? Seems like our best chance, outside of running a break, is using Roy as a post/pass hub. But this requires motion. I will be very happy to see Mike back in the lineup, and think he, or someone with his qualities is essential for the time being.

Or put another way - in an obviously false dichotomy but none the less amusing - which is worse: Mike's defense or DJ's offensive?

Eleazar
03-06-2011, 04:01 AM
I'm not usually one to look at +/- and give it much time, but I did notice something odd. While everyone else was at 0 or in the negatives Price had a +13. Either that is a typo or Price should have received more minutes. I don't like using +/- to judge how well a player is playing, but in this case the abnormality is too strong to ignore.

PaceBalls
03-06-2011, 05:24 AM
I think it was the garbage minutes for Price that elevated his +/-

For some reason our best PG has become the third string PG. Just what the hell is Frank and TPTB thinking? They need to be starting AJ now if they want to have a shot at the playoffs. I am all for Lance showing us what he can do, but not at the cost of a playoff berth...

The same goes for DC and his entitlement issue with starting. Screw that.

Lance should be the one getting the 3rd string minutes... actually no DC should get the 3rd string minutes, he needs to earn his spot back with good play. Let Lance back up AJ.

At any rate AJ should be playing the most minutes at PG right now. That or bring TJ back, anything but the horrible crap we have been seeing with DC.

Jared Sullinger
03-06-2011, 09:07 AM
Needs less DJ, and dare I say teams have now scouted Tyler and he's becoming quite ineffective.

Hansbrough went toe-to-toe with Luis Scola, dropping 17 & 10 in 25 minutes. Ineffective would be Brandon Rush doing next-to-nothing while getting lit up like a Christmas tree by Kevin Martin.

D-BONE
03-06-2011, 09:19 AM
AJ, Tyler, Jeff, and Dahntay are the four most mentally tough guys on the team. That's a major reason why they are successful. The starters need an injection of that.

Good point. Mental toughness/Leadership are killing us right now.

xBulletproof
03-06-2011, 09:54 AM
One, Wells said there was screaming and yelling. That doesn't mean arguing and fighting. It could (and should) be all Vogel just going off on them. Watching 3 guys just look at a ball roll by them without anyone moving would warrant that.

Second, is anyone who hates Dunleavy willing to admit he means more to this team than they thought? I think this rough stretch shows what I already knew. That Mike Dunleavy is a huge reason for the little success this team has seen.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 10:01 AM
But Miami does think they need better role players than Chamlers and company. It is a team. It isnt just your main 3 guys struggle so the whole team will struggle. We need better players 1-12 option wise. In time im sure Paul, Lance, AJ , and others can get better but it wont be eoght we need to add talent. Just like damm near every other team in the league is looking to add talent
Better at the role player aspect though, not equal to Lebron or Wade. And that's only so they can be 100% the best team in the NBA.

We are talking about fixing a 35 win team by improving Josh or Rush, but our Lebron, Wade and Bosh aren't so hot.

And by the way, the Heat make a good example because they aren't well balanced as a team. They went for the homerun with the top scorers when what they really needed is to match a couple of different types of scorers with other types of roles, like maybe a PF that can block shots and start fast breaks.


You swap Josh for Bosh and it helps Miami and hurts the Pacers because Bosh just overlaps Danny and Roy while Josh makes it easier for all the scoring to go through Wade and Josh.

If you "fix" Rush and Josh then you need to go ahead and fix the other 3 spots too.


I'm not calling Josh and Rush untouchable. What I'm saying is that getting 100% production out of your 15% impact (of total team production) guys doesn't help as much as getting 100% production out of your 50% impact guys. Fixing your stars has a bigger impact that fixing your 5th or 7th guy.


Look, I warned people on Collison way back before he was drafted that his game was mostly overdribbling and poor passing. His assist rates with a very talented team were not good and you couldn't blame it on him not having options.

His weakness is vision and how he thinks about court spacing. If we add to this him struggling with his shot AND a good portion of the offense going through him, then we've got problems.


And this isn't about favorites because I love Roy, I always have. But good lord is his post game right in the toilet the last few weeks. He doesn't read the double teams quickly enough, he doesn't protect the ball on double downs, he has his kickouts deflected into turnovers, and he flat-out isn't smoothly completing his low post scoring moves.


Danny is arm barring every single guy that defends him as he drives and has been lucky to get away with it up till now. He looks sluggish on his drives rather than explosive. He's not blowing past guys or putting them on their heels. Moving him away from 3pt bombing is not sitting well with his game, maybe because he was being converted into that so much by JOB. It's probably fall-out from letting JOB continue to preach that style of offense.


You fix those 3 problems and then we can start to worry about tweaking up the complimentary guys to get the extra 3-4 wins.



Hansbrough went toe-to-toe with Luis Scola, dropping 17 & 10 in 25 minutes. Ineffective would be Brandon Rush doing next-to-nothing while getting lit up like a Christmas tree by Kevin Martin.
BTW, once again I heard a Pacer player getting on Tyler for missing his switch. This was not obvious to me since I don't know the scheme, but I trust a vet when he yells out "Tyler, that's you!"

So maybe those upgrades aren't so obvious after all. And he didn't go toe-to-toe with Scola, only half his time came against him and he didn't salvage his FG night till the mid 2nd half when they were down 26. He still took 18 shots to get those 17 points...oh, and just what was he doing when matched with 4 of 5 Patrick Patterson? Did you think we weren't watching during that part?

Where was Lance when Dragic was blowing right past him? The bench DID NOT reign in the lead last night. They kept getting thumped too.


Luckily I Tivo'd the game so when I get back to Indy I'll go ahead and clip up Martin's scores and we will see where all the lighting up was coming from. I have said outright in this thread that Rush did 2 things wrong - bit his jab step and went under some screens. BUT MY POINT was that George was ALSO getting lit up, just like he did against Terry. So how does that fix things?

I feel like there are a lot of "I followed the Gamecast" coaches around here. Rush wasn't great by any stretch, but he was moderately effective on defense.

Martin BLEW PAST COLLISON a couple of times. You know, because basketball features switches and PnR. In fact Houston specifically runs a lot of weaves and screens on the outside to force mixed coverage.

speakout4
03-06-2011, 10:02 AM
Rush and Josh are your COMPLIMENTARY players. Blaming them is like blaming catsup for your s**** hamburger. The complimentary guys can make things better, but they aren't there to be the main guy.

Who was the scoring machine next to Reggie at the 3? It WAS Person or Detlef and they were traded. Why? Because the old saying is there aren't enough balls to go around out there.

Look at the scoring and shooting numbers coming from a WING and PF right now. Now go pull up the numbers on the scoring/FG% (and assists) from a WING (McKey) and PF (Dale) when you had Jax, Reggie and Rik starting.

You didn't say you needed to upgrade Dale when Reggie was lighting it up or Rik was rolling.
If we had Reggie, Smits, and Jax with Rush and Josh we would not complain. This is not 1990 and Rush is nowhere as good as McKey and Josh is not Dale. McKey would stop guys moving to the basket in their tracks.
Our 3 scorers are nowhere near what those guys were so complimentary players on this team have to do more. And you do know that Rush will likely be gone next season (third time is the charm) and possibly Josh. It seems that Larry doesn't share your opinion of how good Brandon is nor do many people on PD.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 10:16 AM
I'm not usually one to look at +/- and give it much time, but I did notice something odd. While everyone else was at 0 or in the negatives Price had a +13. Either that is a typo or Price should have received more minutes. I don't like using +/- to judge how well a player is playing, but in this case the abnormality is too strong to ignore.
I like Price so this is not bias. He just benefitted from garbage situations as Thingfish mentioned. The final 6-7 minutes of that game were utterly meaningless.

Houston played Thabeet for chrissake. Fans went nuts because at this point he's their victory cigar. They were phoning in half the 4th.


Price needs to work up his defense still. He's struggling to stop guys or to drive them into help.

bellisimo
03-06-2011, 10:33 AM
we were losing with O'Brien and we're now losing with Vogel - I don't think anyone should be like "well this is what you guys wanted so here you go...you're losing by playing the young guys"...last I checked we were also a losing team playing the "veterans" with JOB.

I like this stretch - I think this shows that some people were a bit too early with their assesment of Vogel and wanting to give him the keys right away. He is still very raw. Atleast he admits his mistakes - that I can appreciate.

Roy frustrates me. I just don't feel confident with his play at all. He looks so fragile out there in the court. All those hook shots are a bad version of Jermaine's fade aways - it disgusts me.

this team lacks the mental toughness - they're really not "smashmouth" team - they're not tough in the head and it shows...

All these weaknesses that we're witnessing - THEY ARE GOOD - it gives us a better understanding on what we need to fix during the off-season. For that I am glad.

speakout4
03-06-2011, 10:38 AM
we were losing with O'Brien and we're now losing with Vogel - I don't think anyone should be like "well this is what you guys wanted so here you go...you're losing by playing the young guys"...last I checked we were also a losing team playing the "veterans" with JOB.

I like this stretch - I think this shows that some people were a bit too early with their assesment of Vogel and wanting to give him the keys right away. He is still very raw. Atleast he admits his mistakes - that I can appreciate.

Roy frustrates me. I just don't feel confident with his play at all. He looks so fragile out there in the court. All those hook shots are a bad version of Jermaine's fade aways - it disgusts me.

this team lacks the mental toughness - they're really not "smashmouth" team - they're not tough in the head and it shows...

All these weaknesses that we're witnessing - THEY ARE GOOD - it gives us a better understanding on what we need to fix during the off-season. For that I am glad.
The entire team coaches and players are too young and inexperienced for prime time. That's ok but I wish Larry would somehow get involved a little more.

ksuttonjr76
03-06-2011, 10:44 AM
What if this just makes things worse though? Isn't there a chance of that happening?

I guess who's doing the yelling and screaming. If it's Vogel, then I'm glad he's chewing them a new *sshole. If it's the players...well, we'll have a new coach to start next season.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 10:49 AM
Well, apparently both Jeff and Dahntay were pissed because of all of the defensive breakdowns from the young guys, so I'd image they were doing at least some of the yelling. I'm 100% sure Dahntay did because I was reading that he didn't even wait until the game was over; he was getting on them in a huddle mid game.

Danny doesn't seem afraid to yell over things like this, so I'd presume his participation as well.

Before anyone does it (and they probably will), yes we're all aware that the mentioned 3 have various degrees of defensive issues themselves, but they are the elder statesmen of this team, and if anyone is going to get on the youth for their DREADFUL defense, it ought to be them. In theory, I'm perfectly fine with that.

speakout4
03-06-2011, 10:53 AM
Well, apparently both Jeff and Dahntay were pissed because of all of the defensive breakdowns from the young guys, so I'd image they were doing at least some of the yelling. I'm 100% sure Dahntay did because I was reading that he didn't even wait until the game was over; he was getting on them in a huddle mid game.

Danny doesn't seem afraid to yell over things like this, so I'd presume his participation as well.

Before anyone does it (and they probably will), yes we're all aware that the mentioned 3 have various degrees of defensive issues themselves, but they are the elder statesmen of this team, and if anyone is going to get on the youth for their DREADFUL defense, it ought to be them. In theory, I'm perfectly fine with that.
I did not see the game because the cable was out but who specifically was being yelled at/ Do you know?

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 11:06 AM
If we had Reggie, Smits, and Jax with Rush and Josh we would not complain. This is not 1990 and Rush is nowhere as good as McKey and Josh is not Dale. McKey would stop guys moving to the basket in their tracks.
Our 3 scorers are nowhere near what those guys were so complimentary players on this team have to do more. And you do know that Rush will likely be gone next season (third time is the charm) and possibly Josh. It seems that Larry doesn't share your opinion of how good Brandon is nor do many people on PD.
That's great.

But I didn't build this team in the first place, Larry did. So am I really losing the debate at this point? Larry still hates that he had to fire JOB. Larry believed in Shawne Williams. Larry couldn't get the TJ or Dun contracts traded in a world where teams are begging to lose contract money.


And I'm not saying Brandon doesn't have limits. I'm saying the reason the team is struggling has more to do with the difference between Danny and Miller or Roy and Rik than it does with the difference between McKey and Rush.

Plus the argument was that if only George and Tyler were starting this team would be much better. Except that George and Tyler were out there together in the first half getting their a**** kicked too, and by guys like Courtney Lee and Chuck Hayes.

George is a better talent than Rush. George looks to be better than Rush in the long run, and on offense in the short run. But the upgrade won't be George vs Rush, the upgrade will be George vs Danny because Paul is outplaying Danny in terms of defensive effort despite his awareness errors.

And to me that's the bigger problem. Rush is the bench SG, Danny is your all-star. George is supposed to be better than Rush, he's not supposed to be better than Danny.



I'm not saying you can't swap Josh out if you are saying David West. What I'm saying is that if you get West then you must ALSO GIVE UP ON Roy. West becomes the low post scorer and you move Roy to get a role playing defender/rebounder. And you trade Rush for Mayo and trade Danny for the defensive ace SF you want Rush to be at SG.

This would ultimately be upgrading the main scorers, not the secondary players.

Heck, I was pro trading Rush for Gerald Henderson when Larry Brown was still wasting his talent on the bench.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 11:08 AM
I don't know.

pacer4ever
03-06-2011, 11:12 AM
You swap Josh for Bosh and it helps Miami and hurts the Pacers because Bosh just overlaps Danny and Roy while Josh makes it easier for all the scoring to go through Wade and Josh.

This is so BS If you really belive this is true there is something wrong. Bosh would be a major upgrade over Josh and would make us a better team. Josh wouldnt help Miami more than Bosh ethier just no way.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 11:13 AM
I did not see the game because the cable was out but who specifically was being yelled at/ Do you know?
Jeff literally stood right beside us all night. He called out Tyler for a missed switch at one point.

Danny came off the floor losing his s*** at one point, though I don't know who his exact target was.

Jeff was 100% disgusted with how the game went, almost surprisingly so.



As I mentioned after the Orlando game where I sat by the bench, in that game Danny went full-on ballistic on Tyler twice. Barking him down for missed switches at a level that bordered on a one-way fight (Tyler wasn't really arguing back).

I've heard them yell for Paul to make a switch too in other games, so it seems like they are the main 2 guys when it comes to complaining about their switches.


I did not catch Dahntay yelling at anyone, though I think he joined Vogel on complaining about a couple of calls.


Roy per normal expresses his positive energy in a way that to the outside might look hostile. After Danny made that one steal and went the other way to get the foul Roy was all over him barking away, but that was 100% a "that's what I'm talking about" rant I think.


I did see plenty of disgusted glances among players, typically after guys covered other guys who were beat badly off the dribble.

Naptown_Seth
03-06-2011, 11:19 AM
This is so BS If you really belive this is true there is something wrong. Bosh would be a major upgrade over Josh and would make us a better team. Josh wouldnt help Miami more than Bosh ethier just no way.
The problem you're missing is this - Bosh wouldn't end up being a Josh upgrade, he would end up being a ROY UPGRADE. Roy would be moved to Josh's role.

You think they'd just keep feeding the low post or running PnR with Roy/Collison if Bosh came in? Nope.

They'd use Roy as a defensive guy and work all the post(ish) offense through Bosh. Meanwhile Miami could return to focusing on just Wade/Lebron offense and let Josh just keep the ball moving and set shot screens for them.

It's about diversity of skills.

Bosh is a better player (specifically a better scorer) than Josh without a doubt, but you don't need 5 scorers who want 15 shots per game. That does not work. It never works. And it's not like Bosh is famous for how aggressive his defense is at the rim.


You might as well say what's holding back the 92 Bulls isn't Jordan's slump but Cartwright's post offense.

Jared Sullinger
03-06-2011, 11:32 AM
BTW, once again I heard a Pacer player getting on Tyler for missing his switch. This was not obvious to me since I don't know the scheme, but I trust a vet when he yells out "Tyler, that's you!"

So maybe those upgrades aren't so obvious after all. And he didn't go toe-to-toe with Scola, only half his time came against him and he didn't salvage his FG night till the mid 2nd half when they were down 26. He still took 18 shots to get those 17 points...oh, and just what was he doing when matched with 4 of 5 Patrick Patterson? Did you think we weren't watching during that part?

Scola was 1-4 for two points with Hansbrough in the lineup and a phenomenal 5-7 for 11 points with the notoriously soft McRoberts in there.

You're right, though, that Hansbrough didn't do much against Scola (1-3), but then, Scola did jack diddly squat against Hansbrough, thus my "toe-to-toe" statement remains accurate. :-p

There were only three players with non-negative +/- scores: Hansbrough, Stephenson (both 0) and Price (+13).

The Goons did their job for the most part. Between McBob being spanked like a misbehaved child by Scola and Brandon Rush being his usual worthless self, the starters did not.

Jared Sullinger
03-06-2011, 11:39 AM
Brandon Rush is next-to-last on the team in assists-per-36 (1.3) and assist percentage (5.7%), behind Tyler on both accounts. That's just atrocious for a shooting guard. Horrendous. I'll be so glad when this talentless, pot smoking bum is out of here and we have a legitimate starting shooting guard.

kester99
03-06-2011, 12:02 PM
I think Seth has written a whole series of well-reasoned posts. I just wish he would learn that the word is COMPLEMENTARY. Two Es. No I. Being complimentary (with an i) is saying nice things...'love your shoes.'

Anyway. Carry on. Good points, Seth.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 12:07 PM
Larry believed in Shawne Williams.

So did you (!) To the point where you trumpeted trading Danny Granger to make room for Shawne.


Larry couldn't get the TJ or Dun contracts traded in a world where teams are begging to lose contract money.

That is a fantasy world. More than once I read that this time around, the combination of teams who were already financially solid after the 2010 free agency sweepstakes along with the higher than usual quantity of expiring contracts significantly diminished the typical value of expiring contracts. I flatly reject the concept that Bird failed to steal candy from a baby.

Furthermore, even in a tougher-than-usual climate to make such a trade, didn't Mark Spears or someone like him say we were close to a deal for Dun anyway before he broke his thumb?

TJ is easy to figure out: Combine point A (the current climate for expirings) with the concept that nobody wants or needs TJ Ford to be their point guard. Sure, you could possibly make some bad-to-terrible trade (taking on a bad player and/or bad contract) just to say "See, I traded TJ's expiring!", but I'm glad they didn't.



I'm not saying you can't swap Josh out if you are saying David West. What I'm saying is that if you get West then you must ALSO GIVE UP ON Roy. West becomes the low post scorer and you move Roy to get a role playing defender/rebounder.

I don't agree with this at all. First of all, there appears to be this concept held by many NBA followers that you must only have one significant offensive threat in your front court, while the other one must be a Dale Davis/Ben Wallace/Josh McRoberts/Jeff Foster kind of guy. I think that's BS. Tell that to the Lakers when they traded for Pau Gasol. They didn't punt on Andrew Bynum. Whenever he was healthy, they started both of them, and it was a pain in the other NBA contenders' asses to have to deal with that much size and firepower up front.

That's not to say it's an unstoppable force; clearly they also frequently used a smaller Odom/Gasol front court, but there's a reason they stuck with starting the bigger two together, and there's a reason they kept going to it at least part of the time: It can be used to great effect.

I welcome David West to play WITH Roy Hibbert offensively. First of all, David West has a money jump shot, so he can provide space for Roy to work down low, and at the same time we know Roy can be utilized in the high post for when we want to try posting up with David West. You don't have to limit yourself that way by saying "Well, we got West, so Roy you know what you have to do: Stop trying to be an offensive player."

Obviously there's some hyperbole there, but nonetheless.

Sookie
03-06-2011, 12:17 PM
I think it was the garbage minutes for Price that elevated his +/-

For some reason our best PG has become the third string PG. Just what the hell is Frank and TPTB thinking? They need to be starting AJ now if they want to have a shot at the playoffs. I am all for Lance showing us what he can do, but not at the cost of a playoff berth...

The same goes for DC and his entitlement issue with starting. Screw that.

Lance should be the one getting the 3rd string minutes... actually no DC should get the 3rd string minutes, he needs to earn his spot back with good play. Let Lance back up AJ.

At any rate AJ should be playing the most minutes at PG right now. That or bring TJ back, anything but the horrible crap we have been seeing with DC.

Price was +3 in the first half too, when the rest of the team was -.

Most of it was because of garbage minutes, (Vogel put up the white flag in the third, which is why Lance got the time) but he was a big part of the push in the second to get the game close (err..reasonable), which is how he ended up +3. It was just by the time the subs started going in, in the third, it was about a 30 point lead.

AJ gets beat on defense at times, but everyone does. His defense isn't the problem. (In fact, once he figures out how to foul without the refs seeing it, he'll be really good.) Even when he gets scored on, the guy isn't open.

I think starting him would be a good idea though, him and Dahntay might need to break up. :laugh:

BRushWithDeath
03-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Hansbrough went toe-to-toe with Luis Scola, dropping 17 & 10 in 25 minutes. Ineffective would be Brandon Rush doing next-to-nothing while getting lit up like a Christmas tree by Kevin Martin.

11 & 8 of which came in the 4th quarter when Scola had long since sat for the night.

And those 17 points came on 18 shots. Not exactly the picture of efficiency.

BringJackBack
03-06-2011, 12:33 PM
I don't agree with this at all. First of all, there appears to be this concept held by many NBA followers that you must only have one significant offensive threat in your front court, while the other one must be a Dale Davis/Ben Wallace/Josh McRoberts/Jeff Foster kind of guy. I think that's BS. Tell that to the Lakers when they traded for Pau Gasol. They didn't punt on Andrew Bynum. Whenever he was healthy, they started both of them, and it was a pain in the other NBA contenders' asses to have to deal with that much size and firepower up front.

That's not to say it's an unstoppable force; clearly they also frequently used a smaller Odom/Gasol front court, but there's a reason they stuck with starting the bigger two together, and there's a reason they kept going to it at least part of the time: It can be used to great effect.

I welcome David West to play WITH Roy Hibbert offensively. First of all, David West has a money jump shot, so he can provide space for Roy to work down low, and at the same time we know Roy can be utilized in the high post for when we want to try posting up with David West. You don't have to limit yourself that way by saying "Well, we got West, so Roy you know what you have to do: Stop trying to be an offensive player."

Obviously there's some hyperbole there, but nonetheless.

Thank you.. The "There has to be two garbage men," argument doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, Danny is begging for shots to be taken away from him (His FG% is bad and he needs to be more of a deadly off the ball shooter) because we need more talent at the wing there; particularly someone who has capabilities of having 40 point games and can create his own shot and sometimes create for others. Brandon Rush has been averaging about seven points per game and he has been completely invisible since he's been starting again.

As for the power forward spot, a guy like Josh is fine, I guess, if he isn't giving up points due to his lack of boxing out and his lack of post defense. I would prefer a ZBo/West myself, but a garbage man like Josh/Varejao is fine as long as they actually are garbage men. Josh has been giving up a crap load of boards to the other team (Roy and Tyler too, so I will be fair there) as well as letting power forwards post him up three feet away from the basket. That's not work of a hard hat guy.

We just need a lot more talent right now; It's simple. Danny is fine, I don't care what anyone says. If we get enough talent to where other teams can't afford to trap/double Danny as well as forcing him to drive by playing him tight (In other words, making the opposing SF invisible in the team defensive schemes) than we will be better off.

PS: To get our offense to actually work, we need a point guard that can make easy buckets for us and that can adequately defend other point guards as well as create for himself at times when the shot clock is down. We were hoping that that person would be Collison but he doesn't have the court vision or the defense for it. Hopefully Lance can be that player in 2 years or so but we have a lot of time until then. We're probably going to need a stop gap there..

CableKC
03-06-2011, 01:05 PM
The problem you're missing is this - Bosh wouldn't end up being a Josh upgrade, he would end up being a ROY UPGRADE. Roy would be moved to Josh's role.

You think they'd just keep feeding the low post or running PnR with Roy/Collison if Bosh came in? Nope.

They'd use Roy as a defensive guy and work all the post(ish) offense through Bosh. Meanwhile Miami could return to focusing on just Wade/Lebron offense and let Josh just keep the ball moving and set shot screens for them.

It's about diversity of skills.

Bosh is a better player (specifically a better scorer) than Josh without a doubt, but you don't need 5 scorers who want 15 shots per game. That does not work. It never works. And it's not like Bosh is famous for how aggressive his defense is at the rim.


You might as well say what's holding back the 92 Bulls isn't Jordan's slump but Cartwright's post offense.
Correct me if I am wrong....but based off of your posts here....my impression is that you are suggesting that getting an upgrade at the PF spot requires that he compliment Hibbert ( specifically doing stuff that Hibbert doesn't do that would allow Hibbert to command the low-post on the offensive and defensive end )....not mirror Hibbert's contributions.

Although I can understand getting a Player like Bosh ( despite my guess is that he is becoming more JONeal like as he gets older ), I never got the impression that David West is the type of PF that lives "inside the paint". I recall West killing Teams with his mid-range game.

But if West is not that guy that can compliment ( not mirror ) Hibbert on the offensive end...then who is?

Is there a Player out there like that?

cdash
03-06-2011, 01:07 PM
Is there a Player out there like that?

Josh Smith would be the prototype.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 01:07 PM
You swap Josh for Bosh and it helps Miami and hurts the Pacers because Bosh just overlaps Danny and Roy while Josh makes it easier for all the scoring to go through Wade and Josh.

Damn you are overrating Josh big time, this has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen on PD in a long time.


http://tvtastic.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/870_triple_face_palm.jpg?w=640&h=512

joeyd
03-06-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't think Jeff Foster particularly helps the defense.... and his offense is questionable at best...


I don't know why I need to keep coming to Jeff's defense on his defense and worth. Did you see the box score from the game? He had 10 rebounds in 12 minutes of play. If you read the box, you'll notice that this total is the same as what the leading rebounder, Tyler, got by playing twice as long and in garbage time. The rest of the team including Roy played twice as long and did not come close.

The guy does what he does. On offense, he rarely shoots, he scores about 45-50% of the time when he does.

Hicks
03-06-2011, 01:33 PM
Josh Smith would be the prototype.

Defensively, maybe, but I'm not a believer in his offensive game. Not saying he can't or doesn't put up points, but I would not feel comfortable depending on his offensive production.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 01:38 PM
Is there a Player out there like that?

Yes, Varejao, Scola, Ubaka, Okafor, Horford.

Whiskeyjim
03-06-2011, 02:30 PM
This thread is a depressing read:)

I will try to make the case that there is one huge glaring issue with this team. It returns every game. It is an ongoing stat in every game, regardless of how well any one player plays.

Look at the game stats: Pacer | Houston boxscore (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArtC7qyUScIdG7OpE7T9OgmkvLYF?gid=201 1030510)

Review the guard statistics. They tell the same collective story EVERY GAME.

WE DO NOT HAVE AN EFFECTIVE PG. You know, the one that has more assists than everyone else. The one that sets up the offense. The one that ensures the bigs get the ball in the place on the floor that makes them most effective. The one that doesn't turn it over.

To repeat. I do not know why we traded for DC. For a PG, he is a good under-sized SG. He was that way in college.

Without a true PG, any team is going to look way worse than it is. With a true PG, the offense flows. He will improve chemistry.

And chemistry is huge in team sports. I am still scratching my head why Vogel is not preserving his two lines more. The Goon squad was special. Especially with a player like Grainger, who affects the whole offense on the court, you can not just sub players in and out on the floor.

One idea is that Grainger should play the PG position on the starting line. He is controlling the game from the SF position anyway. One could even make the argument that it is difficult for any PG to play the position in the starting line-up because Grainger is already playing it! Either he is doing so because he is over-compensating for the lack of floor general at PG, or that is the way he prefers to play. Either way, it does not matter right now. I would tell the team Grainger is playing PG for the next 10 games. He is miles ahead of our PGs at the position anyway.

On a related note, 4 games ago, it was Vogel's starters that were struggling. Robbing one line for the other will only make the whole team worse. He needs to either make it a permanent thing, or stop doing it, so that players know where they are and develop a rapport.

Chemistry is not a factor in winning. It is the factor in winning. IF you want further evidence, ask yourself why Miami will not win the trophy this year.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 03:26 PM
Defensively, maybe, but I'm not a believer in his offensive game. Not saying he can't or doesn't put up points, but I would not feel comfortable depending on his offensive production.

Just curious, what kind of offensive game/production would you feel comfortable with?

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 03:29 PM
Great post Whiskeyjim.

With one caveat. Granger at point guard is not a good idea at all. He is a terrible ball handler, and not a good passer. I don't see any way that would help us.

If you are going to play a forward out of position at point guard, McRoberts is the better choice.

pwee31
03-06-2011, 03:53 PM
Collison's numbers are pretty much the same as they were last year in New Orleans. The downside is he's a starter this year, and was mostly a backup last year except for a stretch when Chris Paul was hurt.

Everyone was hoping that Collison would play more like he did as a starter for New Orleans then how he did as a backup. Hasn't been the case, but he is only in his 2nd year.

Also take into account the Hornets had good veteran leadership on there team, better finishers and better defenders.

He's growing with this team and I expect him to get better as he matures and as the talent mature or gets better around him

Hicks
03-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Just curious, what kind of offensive game/production would you feel comfortable with?

I prefer guys who can create for themselves. In the case of a big man, that would likely be a reliable, advanced post scoring game. Scoring off of drop steps, spins, step-throughs, turnaround jumpers, hooks, fade-sways, up-and-unders, faceup, etc. Ideally, your big can do those things while also being able to pass out of at least some of those moves, and is hopefully able to knock down a jumpshot from 15 or so feet.

But the main thing is the rich post game.

I realize that's an idealistic description I just gave and that there is nobody available that we could add to this team that has that game, but what I am saying is that the closer they are to being that kind of a player, the better.

It's not that I'm anti-Jeff Foster or Josh McRoberts kinds of bigs; I just prefer more of a post scorer kind of guy. Probably why I can like and appreciate someone like Hansbrough even with his big warts.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 04:28 PM
You don't need any garbage men in your starting line up. Thats a bunch of bull. You need players who can be effective regardless of how many shots they take. Does Boston have any garbage men? No. Rondo, KG, Pierce and Allen can get theirs whenever. And pre trade Perkins wasn't a huge offensive threat, but he could score in the post. Now its up to Big Baby and Shaq and they both are threats in the post.

This needing 15 fga's a game is bs. No one needs 15 fga's a game. Right now I don't want Roy taking 15 fga's a game. The only player on this roster I'm comfortable with taking that many shots is Danny. Sure some of the other guys will have nights where they are doing well and should take 15 shots, but on a regular basis, we don't have one. Especially since we use mass substitutions. Shots need to come within the offense, regardless of who is playing where. I want good shots taken, not shots taken to meet a player quota.

If you don't think Chris Bosh or David West would help this team more than Josh McRoberts, who I like, but is not a starter in this league, you're crazy. Those are legit all star guys (maybe not this year, but certainly in previous seasons). This team isn't in any position to say we don't need more starting talent. Thats ridiculous. Roy to me is going to be a 16 and 8 type of guy. He needs someone like a West that can score in the post and has a nice midrange game. Until then Roy will not be efficient. Not with this roster.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 05:51 PM
Great post Whiskeyjim.

With one caveat. Granger at point guard is not a good idea at all. He is a terrible ball handler, and not a good passer. I don't see any way that would help us.

If you are going to play a forward out of position at point guard, McRoberts is the better choice.

So he can not only make Miami a better team(according to Seth) but he can also be a point guard? Damn :eek:

CableKC
03-06-2011, 05:58 PM
Josh Smith would be the prototype.
Okay...let me clarify that......what PF is REALISTICALLY AVAILABLE that fits that profile of a PF that compliments Hibbert that we can acquire during the offseason?

Josh Smith is untouchable....and even if he was the realistic cost of acquiring him would cost us a MINIMUM of PG.

ilive4sports
03-06-2011, 06:09 PM
Okay...let me clarify that......what PF is REALISTICALLY AVAILABLE that fits that profile of a PF that compliments Hibbert that we can acquire during the offseason?

Josh Smith is untouchable....and even if he was the realistic cost of acquiring him would cost us a MINIMUM of PG.

This is another thing we need to realize. Not every NBA player in the league is available at all times, and even if they are its usually unrealistic to get them.

McKeyFan
03-06-2011, 06:10 PM
I think it's time to throw a hail mary pass.

Start Lance and Paul George. Bench DC, or have him split minutes with AJ.

The remaining games will be a roller coaster, but we may just a win a few. If so, then we'd have a puncher's chance of doing something in the playoffs.

I don't think we have a puncher's chance of anything right now.

cdash
03-06-2011, 06:21 PM
Okay...let me clarify that......what PF is REALISTICALLY AVAILABLE that fits that profile of a PF that compliments Hibbert that we can acquire during the offseason?

Josh Smith is untouchable....and even if he was the realistic cost of acquiring him would cost us a MINIMUM of PG.

Realistically available? Nobody. Nobody is a perfect fit for this roster that we could likely attain via trades or free agency. It's part of the reason I'm a little mystified by people being so darn picky about who we get. I understand not wanting to overpay someone like David West who has age concerns, but people are nitpicking him not being "smash mouth" or his rebounding or what not, when in all likelihood, he's the best most realistic option out there for us. On the court, I'd love for us to get Zach Randolph. Yeah, his defense is sub-par, but he is a freaking beast otherwise. Obviously, due to his off the court issues, he isn't a viable solution here, either.

Mackey_Rose
03-06-2011, 06:48 PM
[/B]

So he can not only make Miami a better team(according to Seth) but he can also be a point guard? Damn :eek:

I realize you worship Tyler Hanbrough and thus the negative attitude towards Josh, but if you don't think he has the skills to make a better point guard than Danny Granger (which is all I said) you are letting your bias distract you.

vnzla81
03-06-2011, 07:11 PM
I realize you worship Tyler Hanbrough and thus the negative attitude towards Josh, but if you don't think he has the skills to make a better point guard than Danny Granger (which is all I said) you are letting your bias distract you.

I worship Tyler? please find a post were I say that Tyler could help Miami better than Bosh or that he is the next Lamar Odom, I don't even think that Tyler is starting material, trust me I like Josh but is hard to like the guy when you guys keep telling us how amazing he is while trashing the other players on the team, all this Josh talk is getting ridiculous and out of control from your side I think.