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vnzla81
03-05-2011, 12:04 AM
Good game by Lance today, hands down the best passer on the team.

NapTonius Monk
03-05-2011, 12:09 AM
Might we have a bit of a PG controversy brewing here as the season progresses?

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:10 AM
Might we have a bit of a PG controversy brewing here as the season progresses?

We won't.

But we should.

croz24
03-05-2011, 12:11 AM
Good game by Lance today, hands down the best passer on the team.

that's not exactly saying much

pwee31
03-05-2011, 12:12 AM
Dallas didn't miss tonight, part bad defense from us, part good offense and tough shots from them.

Pacers just aren't better than Dallas. As soon as the Pacers would get close, Dallas would run off 6 straight points.

If the Pacers had a chance to get back in it, they either turn the ball over, or force a shot, or miss a wide open shot.

Pacers need a closer who can get buckets or get fouled down the stretch. Terry and Dirk did this for the Mavs.

Pacers need to get back to defending for 48 minutes and rebounding the basketball.

Stephenson was a spark, and didn't have to be a scorer to do it. Tyler and Josh both played well until Tyler missed shots in the 4th.

I truly think our 2nd unit would beat our 1st unit more often than not. They're just a tougher group. Foster would get physical with Hibbert and get him out of his game. Hansbrough would overpower McRoberts for the most part. PG would cause trouble for Danny to score. Brandon wouldn't score on Dahntay. And Collison doesn't play defense anymore and forces shots, regardless of Aj or Lance being on the court.

1st unit needs to be tougher and play more as a unit

Granville Fleming
03-05-2011, 12:12 AM
We lost and have been losing because our big 3 have been stinking it up for the most part. Maybe we should start calling them the little 3. Maybe the goon squad should start.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 12:12 AM
DC and Lance moved the offense well tonight.

This team just needs to step it up in close situations.

I still don't get why people are going after DC. If you watched the game, you'd see he played well. Just late into the game got sloppy.

Hopefully he continues this so everyone can stop whining with these new complaints.

imbtyler
03-05-2011, 12:13 AM
that's not exactly saying much

Well, I don't know, I'd say he's the best, and Josh is second. THAT is what says a lot.

luis3ep
03-05-2011, 12:13 AM
Gonna get flack for this but i don't care. DC has not been playing like he deserves to start. I know he's having a "rough patch" and people will say i'm blowing it out of proportion, but i'm not. he's a pass first point guard who's not even a 3rd option in a good offense. I'll admit he has a nice little mid range jumper and can sometimes drive into the hoop cuz his pace.. but he's 6 foot on a good day and looks like a starving kenyan child. Call it what you want to call it i'm calling it how i see it. He needs to start thinking pass first and slow it down and not rush into things. Stephenson is getting more assists and looks way better than him and stephenson is on his 4th game. i'm 100% certain that DC is not the starting point guard for the pacers...if they want to win a championship. He can't handle the best point guards.. Westbrook, Nash, Rose, Deron Williams, and plenty more all have height and strength over DC and have great games against us. Stephenson in time, or maybe another point guard out there will be the TRUE starting pg of this team in the future... DC is a younger, slightly better TJ Ford in my opinion.

Haywoode Workman
03-05-2011, 12:15 AM
cue annoying, whiny "sky is falling" talk....now

presto123
03-05-2011, 12:15 AM
Good game by Lance today, hands down the best passer on the team.


C'mon man......he had some great passes and shows great potential but he didn't make any passes I haven't seen Josh make many times. Yes he can penetrate and I love that but best passer hands down is a ridiculous statement.

presto123
03-05-2011, 12:17 AM
Collison had at least two more shots blocked tonight by driving the lane without dishing. Can't he figure out this isn't working or learn a teardrop shot or something. I'ts gotten to the point I yelled at the TV and I never do that.

Heisenberg
03-05-2011, 12:19 AM
All in all, I'm fairly satisfied with the effort. I don't expect consistently brilliant games from, well anyone on our team, but especially the young guys. McBob played pretty great defense on Dirk, Dirk just makes a living hitting impossible shots.

Of course, coming off the OKC game about anything'd satisfy me.

Haywoode Workman
03-05-2011, 12:19 AM
correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't darren collison a 2nd year point guard with a great attitude and work ethic who we got by trading troy murphy? i'm totally happy with him at this point.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 12:19 AM
Nice to meet you vnzla. :) :laugh:

Felt good about this game. I said in the game thread that I actually prefer a game that is smooth like this and we actually play well than a game like Golden State where we barely sneak away with a win. Where do I get started?

-I am convinced that Lance has all of the talent in the world, and the best part about his game is obviously his passing skills. He creates mismatches for the other team and hopefully next year he will show flashes of ability to pick them apart. But man oh man am I impressed with his passing. I wouldn't be suprised if he starts next year at all. He just has to get in better condition and continue to improve.

-I thought Tyler did a very good job off of the bench tonight. His defense was bad but that's not his strong suit. In the future, assuming that we get a good starting power forward, he will have some MONSTER games for us off the bench. I'm ecstatic that we have him.

-Roy struggled tonight, but he still has a lot of room to improve on things such as his jump shot, running the floor, etc..

-Paul George struggled offensively, but he put on a defensive clinic tonight. The Jet was just hitting everything. It's officially time for him to start.

AesopRockOn
03-05-2011, 12:20 AM
We lost and have been losing because our big 3 have been stinking it up for the most part. Maybe we should start calling them the little 3. Maybe the goon squad should start.

Danny's offense in the second half was one of the few things that kept us close.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 12:20 AM
By the way, the big three of Miami are getting abused right now.

BillS
03-05-2011, 12:21 AM
I saw some things I really liked from Lance tonight. Me being a "pass first" point guard kind of guy, it intrigues me to think what could happen if (and I do NOT in ANY way believe this is something that should happen soon or AT ALL this year, just thinking out loud so-to-speak) you were to move PG AND Lance into the starting lineup. If Lance is pass first, then that is the scoring option you need to free up for PG taking Rush's place, and now your so-called "big three" are Danny, Roy, and Paul, with Lance as facilitator and Josh as "floater" for the ORs and putbacks.

Again, Lance is nowhere near ready (gotta be able to play more than 5 minutes before looking to go to the bench for a breather, for one thing), but it would be the type of fit we'd be looking for.

Haywoode Workman
03-05-2011, 12:23 AM
the only guy i'm really starting to get tired of is roy. i was pretty excited about him before the year started, but he's just so weak and not athletic at all. i'd be happy with him as the backup center, though. really, i think that's the perfect role for him, 15-20 min a night guy who could put up some easy points for the 2nd unit.

imbtyler
03-05-2011, 12:24 AM
Lance did well tonight. Can't wait to see him get more time and more freedom.

Danny was a whiny, effortless *****. After watching his actions off the ball tonight, I was incredibly disappointed.

DC was not up to par, nor has he been lately, but no reason for condemnation. We're still putting our offense together, and Darren thought he could get some "easy" points in the paint. Unfortunately, that's the same mentality that got him blocked 396 times by Ibaka the other night.

JEFF FOSTER BETTER RETIRE OR START WORKING FOR CONSECO. I'm sick of watching rebounds go slightly out of his reach, and that's when he reaches for them and doesn't just watch them fly by. I'd rather him do that stupid swat-tapping **** than not even try. Although, that dunk near the start of the game was slightly impressive.

PG really started to turn things around later in the game, the key portion there being "late". Also, it's not entirely his fault that Jason Terry was slaughtering him. He would have been better off against Peja, which I was looking forward to seeing. Unfortunately, PG still isn't an offensive option, so we're not running anything for him (yet) and won't be for a while.

Like I said in the game thread, Dallas has won 8 games in a row. We tried really hard against them, and the hunger that we had was great to see. Tyler's effort and hustle near the end (again, late) was impressive, but it needs to start happening the minute he steps on the court.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:24 AM
-I thought Tyler did a very good job off of the bench tonight. His defense was bad but that's not his strong suit. In the future, assuming that we get a good starting power forward, he will have some MONSTER games for us off the bench. I'm ecstatic that we have him.

He has to get some form of shot selection. You can't have a PF who regularly shoots under 50%.

lavell12
03-05-2011, 12:25 AM
sometimes teams just lose not b/c they play poorly but b/c the other team is just better, this was the case tonight.

presto123
03-05-2011, 12:25 AM
How many open jumpers did Tyler miss tonight? Seemed like a bunch but I haven't checked the line. I always like his energy but I think he pulls the trigger too quickly sometimes. The baskets I remember him scoring tonight were set up by Lance.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 12:26 AM
He has to get some form of shot selection. You can't have a PF who regularly shoots under 50%.

I definitely agree. That's the downside and it's frustrating, but hopefully that is something that can be improved on. He's the definition of "Backup energy power forward".

He has his games though that he completely changes with his intensity, hustle, and scoring.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:27 AM
How many open jumpers did Tyler miss tonight? Seemed like a bunch but I haven't checked the line. I always like his energy but I think he pulls the trigger too quickly sometimes. The baskets I remember him scoring tonight were set up by Lance.

5-13. How many of those were jumpers I don't know. Probably most.

imbtyler
03-05-2011, 12:28 AM
That top-of-the-key jumper from Tyler is getting on my nerves, too. The Hansbrough I like to see busts his way into the post and makes a well-thrown shot in, probably drawing the foul, and making the free throw. Seeing him shoot those long 2's is like watching every Troy Murphy. And so, my hatred builds.

lavell12
03-05-2011, 12:28 AM
5-13. How many of those were jumpers I don't know. Probably most.

dude takes a lot of shots to score.

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 12:28 AM
Lots of comments about how good Hansbrough was offensively, yet Josh scored 2 more points in 8 less shots.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 12:29 AM
I saw some things I really liked from Lance tonight. Me being a "pass first" point guard kind of guy, it intrigues me to think what could happen if (and I do NOT in ANY way believe this is something that should happen soon or AT ALL this year, just thinking out loud so-to-speak) you were to move PG AND Lance into the starting lineup. If Lance is pass first, then that is the scoring option you need to free up for PG taking Rush's place, and now your so-called "big three" are Danny, Roy, and Paul, with Lance as facilitator and Josh as "floater" for the ORs and putbacks.

Again, Lance is nowhere near ready (gotta be able to play more than 5 minutes before looking to go to the bench for a breather, for one thing), but it would be the type of fit we'd be looking for.

I agree with this, reason why I wanted Vogel to close the game with him, he is just too good at putting the ball in the right place, I even think that a guy like him could help an spot up shooter like Rush get better on offense and even facilitate Danny the ball who is a really good catch and shoot player.

imbtyler
03-05-2011, 12:30 AM
Lots of comments about how good Hansbrough was offensively, yet Josh scored 2 more points in 8 less shots.

And made everything he shot. 5-5 from FG, 5-5 from FT.

presto123
03-05-2011, 12:31 AM
Lots of comments about how good Hansbrough was offensively, yet Josh scored 2 more points in 8 less shots.


Yeah...why was he on the bench? Josh's defense can improve(like everybody else on the team) but I have no problem with his offense or decision making.

lavell12
03-05-2011, 12:32 AM
And made everything he shot. 5-5 from FG, 5-5 from FT.

exactly 13 points isn't a huge number but you would think Tyler went for 40 by the amount of hype he gets when he scores in the teens. Josh is a much more efficient scorer.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 12:33 AM
Lots of comments about how good Hansbrough was offensively, yet Josh scored 2 more points in 8 less shots.

I had to go somewhere for a portion of the game, so I must have missed some of his scoring. My bad.

Tyler was good for a two-three minute period with Lance because Lance was getting everyone easy, easy buckets. He had like 11 points at half and he pretty much disappeared from there. He's just the perfect backup power forward and it's not too realistic to expect consistency form him though because he is a backup power forward.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 12:35 AM
Tyler started out great. Much better than he finished. He started settling for jumpers. Its usually when he gets the ball away from the paint. When he gets it outside the paint i'd say 90% of the time he takes a jumper in that situation. It was pretty frustrating to watch.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 12:35 AM
So how about that Lance kid? If he started next year how many assists do you think he could average?

lavell12
03-05-2011, 12:36 AM
Field Goal Percentage.

Josh (this season) .532
Josh (career) .512

Tyler (this season) .431
Tyler (career) .403



Yet Tyler is considered the better scorer. Add in Josh being a better passer and Josh leads to more efficient scoring for the Pacers.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 12:36 AM
So how about that Lance kid?

I dont think he can play point guard

/green

Hicks
03-05-2011, 12:37 AM
that's not exactly saying much

On a team that includes Josh McRoberts, yes, it is.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 12:38 AM
Hans was needed in the game because he was the only one getting rebounds and running after the ball like crazy, is not his fault that he passed the ball to either AJ or DC and they missed the shots, he took a lot of shots(according to some here) because he was trying to score after getting a rebound.

graphic-er
03-05-2011, 12:39 AM
Give the keys to Lance please. This guy had one hell of a game. He made everyone on the floor better. He just needs to adjust defensively a bit more. Very exciting to see him play. I kept rooting for him every time he touched the ball or defending. I'm waiting for that game very soon where he blasts off for 20 points and 8 assists.

Peck
03-05-2011, 12:41 AM
DC and Lance moved the offense well tonight.

This team just needs to step it up in close situations.

I still don't get why people are going after DC. If you watched the game, you'd see he played well. Just late into the game got sloppy.

Hopefully he continues this so everyone can stop whining with these new complaints.

I did watch the game tonight and if anything there is not enough complaining about Darren Collison.

Dude has zereo & I mean zero court vision and almost no ability to set up an offense beyond a drive and dish off of a pick and roll. That pass he made to Roy on a drive that Roy fumbled out of bounds was just so much nonsense I can't even begin to explain how bad it was.

First, yes it was a catchable pass. But your dealing with a 7'2" center who has a very high center of gravity to begin with. You don't give him a bounce pass in traffic while he is driving and expect anything else to happen other than what did. Sure if he were passing to Danny or Paul or even Josh that is a and1 shot, but a point guard should know that. Thus why if Danny or Paul or even Josh had made that pass I wouldn't have been so upset, but Darren is the point guard and should know this.

Also his first quarter defense actually made me question whether or not he was putting in more effort than what Troy would have.

In other words, this is about the 4th or 5th game in a row I've been sitting and thinking we need to improve our point guard position going into the off season.

I will caveat that by saying I understand he is only a second year p.g. and hopefully he can improve but at the end of the day he is a scoring point guard who right now can't shoot and is getting blocked almost every time he goes to the rim, not the best of combinations.

I am baffled when I read on here people who question Lance Stevenson being a point guard. I'd start Lance tomorrow night if it were up to me.

BTW, D.C. is not the only reason we lost tonight but he sure was a very big part of it.

croz24
03-05-2011, 12:41 AM
On a team that includes Josh McRoberts, yes, it is.

well technically, you could go either way with that statement. it could either be saying a lot or not much at all depending on how you look at it...

ot: manu ginobili is a hall of fame level talent. hopefully he doesn't get the reggie miller treatment where people want to look solely at stats to justify his case for or against instead of watching the talent on the floor.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 12:44 AM
I did watch the game tonight and if anything there is not enough complaining about Darren Collison.

Dude has zereo & I mean zero court vision and almost no ability to set up an offense beyond a drive and dish off of a pick and roll. That pass he made to Roy on a drive that Roy fumbled out of bounds was just so much nonsense I can't even begin to explain how bad it was.

First, yes it was a catchable pass. But your dealing with a 7'2" center who has a very high center of gravity to begin with. You don't give him a bounce pass in traffic while he is driving and expect anything else to happen other than what did. Sure if he were passing to Danny or Paul or even Josh that is a and1 shot, but a point guard should know that. Thus why if Danny or Paul or even Josh had made that pass I wouldn't have been so upset, but Darren is the point guard and should know this.

Also his first quarter defense actually made me question whether or not he was putting in more effort than what Troy would have.

In other words, this is about the 4th or 5th game in a row I've been sitting and thinking we need to improve our point guard position going into the off season.

I will caveat that by saying I understand he is only a second year p.g. and hopefully he can improve but at the end of the day he is a scoring point guard who right now can't shoot and is getting blocked almost every time he goes to the rim, not the best of combinations.

I am baffled when I read on here people who question Lance Stevenson being a point guard. I'd start Lance tomorrow night if it were up to me.

BTW, D.C. is not the only reason we lost tonight but he sure was a very big part of it.

great post I agree 100%. DC is a SG in a little pg's body.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 12:45 AM
He has to get some form of shot selection. You can't have a PF who regularly shoots under 50%.

Yeah, those 11 out of the last 13 years must have really sucked in Dallas, by your standard for a PF's Fg%..... :rolleyes:

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:46 AM
well technically, you could go either way with that statement. it could either be saying a lot or not much at all depending on how you look at it...

Way the hell out of left field and totally senseless for this thread: manu ginobili is a hall of fame level talent. hopefully he doesn't get the reggie miller treatment where people want to look solely at stats to justify his case for or against instead of watching the talent on the floor.
Fixed.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 12:46 AM
DC and AJ are second year point guards and Lance has only played 4 games in the NBA and I'm ready to give him the keys.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 12:46 AM
Give the keys to Lance please. This guy had one hell of a game. He made everyone on the floor better. He just needs to adjust defensively a bit more. Very exciting to see him play. I kept rooting for him every time he touched the ball or defending. I'm waiting for that game very soon where he blasts off for 20 points and 8 assists.

Once he gets in better shape/ game shape im sure he will be getting a lot more mintues.

Ozwalt72
03-05-2011, 12:46 AM
Lance may not be a point guard...but he's at least a guy that's capable of playing the ball dominant 2 spot like Brandon Roy, Dwayne Wade and that sort. Now, not implying he's anywhere near as good as either of those guys...but that's what his game is like. He plays a good two man game and shows flashes of making the pass before the assist.

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 12:47 AM
Hans was needed in the game because he was the only one getting rebounds and running after the ball like crazy, is not his fault that he passed the ball to either AJ or DC and they missed the shots, he took a lot of shots(according to some here) because he was trying to score after getting a rebound.

What thread are you reading, and what game did you watch?

Trophy
03-05-2011, 12:47 AM
I don't see how people thought DC is the one to blame for the loss.

He didn't have a bad game.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 12:48 AM
Field Goal Percentage.

Josh (this season) .532
Josh (career) .512

Tyler (this season) .431
Tyler (career) .403



Yet Tyler is considered the better scorer. Add in Josh being a better passer and Josh leads to more efficient scoring for the Pacers.

Tyler is considered to be a better scorer simply because Tyler actually *is* a scorer, and Josh, most of the time, is not a scorer at all. But Josh is clearly more efficient.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:49 AM
Yeah, those 11 out of the last 13 years must have really sucked in Dallas, by your standard for a PF's Fg%..... :rolleyes:

Dirk is a perimeter player and one of the greatest of all time. Tyler shoots at a similar volume but that is the only similarity between the two.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 12:50 AM
It was a collective effort of everyone including the coaches for that loss.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:51 AM
I don't see how people thought DC is the one to blame for the loss.

He didn't have a bad game.

You could not have watched this game.

Unless you mean he didn't have a bad game but an utterly abysmal performance.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 12:53 AM
Dirk is a perimeter player and one of the greatest of all time. Tyler shoots at a similar volume but that is the only similarity between the two.

And yet a power forward who fails to meet your ridiculous standard.

Peck
03-05-2011, 12:53 AM
I don't see how people thought DC is the one to blame for the loss.

He didn't have a bad game.

Are you going by box score or from actually viewing the game?

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 12:53 AM
You could not have watched this game.

Unless you mean he didn't have a bad game but an utterly abysmal performance.

Maybe he was watching the last game we played the Mavs when DC played good?

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:56 AM
And yet a power forward who fails to meet your ridiculous standard.

Asking a PF who is not a number 1, 2, or 3 option on a team to shoot 50% is not a ridiculous standard if you ask me. Especially one who never shoots outside the three point line.

I don't think a backup should be a strictly volume scorer.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 12:57 AM
What thread are you reading, and what game did you watch?

The same game you watched were Hans was running and getting tough rebounds, he stole the ball at one time, gave the ball to AJ for him to shoot a brick, then got another rebound and took the shot, he hustle all night long, I think that was the reason why Vogel left him on the game, by the way his defense on Dirk was good too not letting him get the ball few times at the end of the game.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 12:57 AM
As for Lance, if you still don't think he can play as a PG, I think you're confusing ability with the fact that he's not your personal preference with regards to what kind of a PG he is. He'll never be confused for Mark Jackson, but he can clearly make terrific passes, he's clearly more than willing to do so, he clearly is comfortable handling the ball with smaller guards defending him,and his game is clearly centered around having the ball in his hands, which is why it makes the most sense to play him at the position where he'll handle the ball most often.

croz24
03-05-2011, 12:58 AM
Fixed.

i guess you missed vnzla's post on page one concerning the heat getting blown out by the spurs which triggered my comment. but way to be *removed about it.

presto123
03-05-2011, 12:59 AM
Tyler is considered to be a better scorer simply because Tyler actually *is* a scorer, and Josh, most of the time, is not a scorer at all. But Josh is clearly more efficient.

I think Tyler thinks he's more of a scorer than he really is. His "green light" needs to go to yellow a bit. Josh could easily be more of a scorer but he's probably the most unselfish guy on a team with a lot of selfish players. You saw the difference between a good team and a not so good team tonight. Dallas moved the ball around to find the best possible shot and we usually took the first available shot. I think a big problem with this team is a lot of guys don't know their role. Everybody thinks they are a scorer.

joeyd
03-05-2011, 01:01 AM
DC was not up to par, nor has he been lately, but no reason for condemnation. We're still putting our offense together, and Darren thought he could get some "easy" points in the paint. Unfortunately, that's the same mentality that got him blocked 396 times by Ibaka the other night.

JEFF FOSTER BETTER RETIRE OR START WORKING FOR CONSECO. I'm sick of watching rebounds go slightly out of his reach, and that's when he reaches for them and doesn't just watch them fly by. I'd rather him do that stupid swat-tapping **** than not even try. Although, that dunk near the start of the game was slightly impressive.

PG really started to turn things around later in the game, the key portion there being "late". Also, it's not entirely his fault that Jason Terry was slaughtering him. He would have been better off against Peja, which I was looking forward to seeing. Unfortunately, PG still isn't an offensive option, so we're not running anything for him (yet) and won't be for a while.

I didn't see a large segment of the game but from what I saw, I agree and disagree with some of your comments. Agree with the Collison comments. Agree with the George comments. Both are kids with great potential. Might as well let them play and make their mistakes. But I vehemently disagree about Foster. He has been statistically better than Roy in many if not most games this season when his minutes are normalized to Roy's. To infer that he is a slacker with his "swat-tapping" is ridiculous. Retire? OK, I admit that Jeff's been a favorite player of mine for the last couple of years, but stats don't lie, and he has ranked in the top 5 or 6 players in the NBA for rebounds per 48 minutes this year. And he lets his teamates grab some rebounds that he could easily make, rather than pulling a Tyler/George grabfest like in the OKC game.

Unclebuck
03-05-2011, 01:01 AM
I thought Collison was horrible in this game. Terrible shot selection, terrible passing, terrible defense.

Lance was our best point guard tonight. He's impressive to say the least. He just needs some experience. But in order for him to be a special player he must play point guard, at shooting guard he won't be special. He has point guard skills.

I don't see blaming Vogel for the loss, he coached his normal game. Dallas is just better and much more experienced

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:03 AM
Josh could easily be more of a scorer

No he couldn't, he is just not that type of guy.

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:05 AM
I've said that I don't think Lance is a natural point guard, but then again, we have started Collison every game at point guard and he isn't either. Loved what I saw from Lance tonight. He isn't as good of a passer as Josh, but he looked like the best passing guard we have.

Right now either AJ or Lance is the best option at that position. Collsion deserves garbage/spot minutes only.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:06 AM
I thought Collison was horrible in this game. Terrible shot selection, terrible passing, terrible defense.

Lance was our best point guard tonight. He's impressive to say the least. He just needs some experience. But in order for him to be a special player he must play point guard, at shooting guard he won't be special. He has point guard skills.

Honestly, How can you say that? Really? Wow, You like Nostradamus?
I mean he is a scorer from high school thur college. hmm
People crack me up!

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 01:07 AM
I don't see blaming Vogel for the loss, he coached his normal game. Dallas is just better and much more experienced

Nobody is blaming Vogel for loss but that doesn't mean he didn't do a bad job tonight. Saying so isn't blame.

Unclebuck
03-05-2011, 01:08 AM
Field Goal Percentage.

Josh (this season) .532
Josh (career) .512

Tyler (this season) .431
Tyler (career) .403



Yet Tyler is considered the better scorer. Add in Josh being a better passer and Josh leads to more efficient scoring for the Pacers.


Is shooting % the main thing you use to judge a players offensive game? If it is than Jeff foster is a better offensive player than Reggie Miller

career stats:
Foster .496
Reggie .471

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 01:10 AM
I've said that I don't think Lance is a natural point guard, but then again, we have started Collison every game at point guard and he isn't either. Loved what I saw from Lance tonight. He isn't as good of a passer as Josh, but he looked like the best passing guard we have.

Right now either AJ or Lance is the best option at that position. Collsion deserves garbage/spot minutes only.


Unfortunately we know that won't happen due to popularity, Vogel's complacentness (Is that even a word?), and the fact that DC would complain.

Perhaps next year during training camp when there is a fresh start Lance and Paul will get their chances to flourish. :pray:

Something else I want to add: Paul George is in a terrible position playing with AJ, Dahntay, and Tyler. He gets no shots. It's best to throw Rush in Paul's position because he doesn't need shots.

For God's sake it's time to start Paul George and make him useful instead of watching Dahntay/Tyler/Price take everything while Paul stands in the corner 5 out of 6 possessions.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:10 AM
Is shooting % the main thing you use to judge a players offensive game? If it is than Jeff foster is a better offensive player than Reggie Miller

career stats:
Foster .496
Reggie .471

No wonder why Reggie didn't make it to the HOF........(green)

Unclebuck
03-05-2011, 01:11 AM
Honestly, How can you say that? Really? Wow, You like Nostradamus?
I mean he is a scorer from high school thur college. hmm
People crack me up!

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:


I just watch the games and comment based on what I see. I don't know anything Lance has ever done prior to the NBA. In fact prior to a few games ago I had never seen lance play. I was not prepared to be wowed, but I have been. Sure thee are 3 mistaks for every great play, but the fact that he can make the great play is what could make him special

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:11 AM
I don't see blaming Vogel for the loss, he coached his normal game. Dallas is just better and much more experienced

He forgot about Josh, who was getting it done on both ends of the court. He went with Collison who hasn't gotten it done for months.

He's been good about riding the hot hand, but tonight he dropped the ball. I wouldn't suggest he was the reason we lost tonight though.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:12 AM
Honestly, How can you say that? Really? Wow, You like Nostradamus?
I mean he is a scorer from high school thur college. hmm
People crack me up!

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

Just curious, have you watched Lance play? He always has created for others. His passing skills are incredible, only rivaled by Josh on this team and Josh is a damn good passer.

presto123
03-05-2011, 01:13 AM
Our team defense at times is painful to watch. We have to be in top 5 or 10 worst defensive teams in the league. At least lately. It's getting old seeing uncontested shots and layups every game. And guys not hustling back. Just a little more effort here could turn some of those L's to W's.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 01:14 AM
Unfortunately we know that won't happen due to popularity, Vogel's complacentness (Is that even a word?), and the fact that DC would complain.

Perhaps next year during training camp when there is a fresh start Lance and Paul will get their chances to flourish. :pray:

Something else I want to add: Paul George is in a terrible position playing with AJ, Dahntay, and Tyler. He gets no shots. It's best to throw Rush in Paul's position because he doesn't need shots.

For God's sake it's time to start Paul George and make him useful instead of watching Dahntay/Tyler/Price take everything while Paul stands in the corner 5 out of 6 possessions.
This, Paul is playing with so many black holes in the 2nd unit just let him start. Let Lance play with the 1st unit as pg also. So the 2nd unit will have all black holes in it. Our 2nd unit isnt fun to watch they are so selfish and not good enoght to be selfish.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:19 AM
Yea, I watched every Cinci and Pacers and Pacers summer games. But i'm not gonna set here and predict his future is only gonna be special at the PG position. He has mad skills and he is a terrific shooter.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 01:20 AM
Is shooting % the main thing you use to judge a players offensive game? If it is than Jeff foster is a better offensive player than Reggie Miller

career stats:
Foster .496
Reggie .471

Reggie and Foster don't take the same types of shots. (And Foster shooting sub .500 from where he shoots is truly pathetic.)

Josh and Tyler do take the same types of shots. Josh is just a lot more judicious with the shots he takes. Tyler obviously has no qualms about taking bad shots. Bad shots result in bad shooting percentages.

Comparing Reggie and Foster is like comparing apples and HDTVs.

Comparing Josh and Tyler is like comparing apples and pears.

Heisenberg
03-05-2011, 01:21 AM
Know it was just a typo, but with his defense often times "Tylet" may not be a bad nickname. Like valet, get it? Get it!?

Yeah, I could do better I'll admit.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:23 AM
Just curious, have you watched Lance play? He always has created for others. His passing skills are incredible, only rivaled by Josh on this team and Josh is a damn good passer.


Yea, I watched every Cinci and Pacers and Pacers summer games. But i'm not gonna set here and predict his future is only gonna be special at the PG position. He has mad skills and he is a terrific shooter.

Even tonight he played the 2 for half his time played.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 01:24 AM
Know it was just a typo, but with his defense often times "Tylet" may not be a bad nickname. Like valet, get it? Get it!?

Yeah, I could do better I'll admit.

I'm an admttedly bad iPad typer.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:24 AM
Josh and Tyler do take the same types of shots.

Wrong, Josh normally takes open shots because the other team is letting him or he gets dunks or layups, Tyler takes more contested shots and his jumper is contested must of the time.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 01:25 AM
I was very anti-Lance based on two things. First, his obvious baggage that reminds me of the JO era players who nearly destroyed the franchise. Second, I didn't think he had quick enough feet to play PG.

I'm still concerned a bit about both of these issues...but that dude was born ready.

He's not only naturally gifted, he's supremely confident and has a little swagger. Heck, he has a lot of swagger. In fact, swagger better bone up a little to catch up with Lance.

IDK. He's winning me over by the way he can distribute and set guys up for easy shots. He actually plays like a PG rather than a SG with a good handle. He breaks down the defense with ease and can pass in traffic, drive to the lane. I'm thinking that if he can just lose 5 or 10 lbs and improve his quickness he could be an excellent PG with some experience. He has that Billups toughness...something you simply cannot develop. You have to be born ready.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:25 AM
I do think that Rush had the best game out there tonight. only played like 19 minutes but he did well.

Jared Sullinger
03-05-2011, 01:26 AM
Is shooting % the main thing you use to judge a players offensive game? If it is than Jeff foster is a better offensive player than Reggie Miller

career stats:
Foster .496
Reggie .471

DeAndre Jordan .639
Shaquille O'Neal .582
Dwight Howard .578
Kareem Jabbar .559
Wilt Chamberlain .540
Bill Walton .521
David Robinson .518
Hakeem Olajuwon .512
Tim Duncan .507
Patrick Ewing .504
Kevin Garnett .498
Moses Malone .491
Bill Russell .440
George Mikan .401

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:28 AM
Even tonight he played the 2 for half his time played.

It doesn't change the fact that he played extremely well at the PG position. He created a lot tonight. He played better than AJ or DC. Now if he played more minutes that might have changed, but he didn't. In the time he played PG, he played very well.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 01:28 AM
Wrong, Josh normally takes open shots because the other team is letting him or he gets dunks or layups, Tyler takes more contested shots and his jumper is contested must of the time.

Tyler should not be taking contested shots either. Those are bad shots!

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:29 AM
I was very anti-Lance based on two things. First, his obvious baggage that reminds me of the JO era players who nearly destroyed the franchise. Second, I didn't think he had quick enough feet to play PG.

I'm still concerned a bit about both of these issues...but that dude was born ready.

He's not only naturally gifted, he's supremely confident and has a little swagger. Heck, he has a lot of swagger. In fact, swagger better bone up a little to catch up with Lance.

IDK. He's winning me over by the way he can distribute and set guys up for easy shots. He actually plays like a PG rather than a SG with a good handle. He breaks down the defense with ease and can pass in traffic, drive to the lane. I'm thinking that if he can just lose 5 or 10 lbs and improve his quickness he could be an excellent PG with some experience. He has that Billups toughness...something you simply cannot develop. You have to be born ready.

I just think he needs to get back in BB shape and his size will be fine. He will carry his weight well then.

Heisenberg
03-05-2011, 01:29 AM
Lance really has surprised me I'll admit. It's not just the quality of the passes, I just didn't expect him to be such a willing passer at all, figured him to be more of a score, score, OK no shot guess I'll pass now type.

Pretty interested in seeing what he can do when he's played more than 4 games and the rest of the NBA has some clue of who he is.

Hoop
03-05-2011, 01:30 AM
Bird said "Give Lance a few games under his belt and he will surprise everyone."

He wasn't lying, was he? Lance has a loooong way to go, but the distance is getting a little shorter.

Jared Sullinger
03-05-2011, 01:31 AM
DeAndre Jordan .639
Shaquille O'Neal .582
Dwight Howard .578
Kareem Jabbar .559
Wilt Chamberlain .540
Bill Walton .521
David Robinson .518
Hakeem Olajuwon .512
Tim Duncan .507
Patrick Ewing .504
Kevin Garnett .498
Moses Malone .491
Bill Russell .440
George Mikan .401

He doesn't yet qualify, but according to BasketballReference.com, DeAndre Jordan's career FG% of .639 would be the best in NBA/ABA history by nearly six percentage points. Shaq is currently first at .582.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 01:31 AM
It doesn't change the fact that he played extremely well at the PG position. He created a lot tonight. He played better than AJ or DC. Now if he played more minutes that might have changed, but he didn't. In the time he played PG, he played very well.

Agreed. He is much younger and much less experienced yet he made DC look like third string. I'm sorry, but I think it will soon be time to make some lineup changes. Lance can distribute the ball unlike our other PG's. His skills are at an entirely different level in terms of seeing the floor and breaking down the defense. Gotta start him IMO and have him out there with George and Granger.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:32 AM
Bird said "Give Lance a few games under his belt and he will surprise everyone."

He wasn't lying, was he? Lance has a loooong way to go, but the distance is getting a little shorter.


I'm getting excited!:happydanc

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:33 AM
Taking contested jumpers is considered a good thing?

Jesus, JOB was around waaaaaaayyy too long.

BringJackBack
03-05-2011, 01:33 AM
Lance really has surprised me I'll admit. It's not just the quality of the passes, I just didn't expect him to be such a willing passer at all, figured him to be more of a score, score, OK no shot guess I'll pass now type.

Pretty interested in seeing what he can do when he's played more than 4 games and the rest of the NBA has some clue of who he is.

I agree 100%. I thought that Lance was going to me a "Me, me, me, me", forget defense, turnover prone guy. He looks a lot more professional than I thought he would on the court. I thought he'd come in, miss two mid range shots, blow two defensive assignments, and turn the ball over and come out reminding us why he was the number forty pick. Instead I feel like I did in the summer about him.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:34 AM
Tyler should not be taking contested shots either. Those are bad shots!

That is how he gets the other team in foul trouble, why is that hard to understand? Josh unwillingness to score or attack doesn't get anybody in foul trouble.

LA_Confidential
03-05-2011, 01:36 AM
Whatever happened to DC attacking the lane with that pretty floater?

jeffg-body
03-05-2011, 01:36 AM
Yes, some guys didn't play great tonight but the world is not coming to an end. This game was the perfect example of a very good veteran team schooling a very young team at the end of the game. We had our moments but just couldn't capitalize on them. All in all I see this game as a good learning experience.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:36 AM
It doesn't change the fact that he played extremely well at the PG position. He created a lot tonight. He played better than AJ or DC. Now if he played more minutes that might have changed, but he didn't. In the time he played PG, he played very well.

Yea, I agree with that 100%. But what you just sayed has nothing to do with your 1st comment that I replied too originally.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:39 AM
Yes, some guys didn't play great tonight but the world is not coming to an end. This game was the perfect example of a very good veteran team schooling a very young team at the end of the game. We had our moments but just couldn't capitalize on them. All in all I see this game as a good learning experience.

Good analogy! Just hope they do learn!

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 01:39 AM
When do they start printing the Born Ready jerseys?

Dude is going to break my heart if he pulls an Artest.

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:40 AM
That is how he gets the other team in foul trouble, why is that hard to understand? Josh unwillingness to score or attack doesn't get anybody in foul trouble.

What happens when defenses figure out that he isn't even trying to make the shot and stop fouling? Will he stop throwing up garbage shots? I doubt it.

Psyren
03-05-2011, 01:41 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here.

Tyler Hansbrough is our most valuable player. The only guy who NEVER quits. Even when he's as frustrated as possible, the guy simply never quits. He makes plays he has no business making.

Also, Lance is going to be one hell of a player. Better than our other 2 point guards by far.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:41 AM
You called him a "I mean he is a scorer from high school thur college. hmm"

So I think what I said has everything to do with it, proving he is not a scorer, rather he is a creator.

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:41 AM
When do they start printing the Born Ready jerseys?

Dude is going to break my heart if he pulls an Artest.

Man you are falling in love here ......... :laugh::laugh:

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 01:42 AM
As for the game, I thought we played fine. The Mavs are one of the better teams in the league, loaded with vets and have been hot (8 game win streak). Why would anyone thing a sub .500 team of rookies and second year players would beat them?

Merz
03-05-2011, 01:43 AM
And yet a power forward who fails to meet your ridiculous standard.

Whether you think his standards are ridiculous or not I'm sure you agree with the fact that Tyler needs to be more selective when it comes to shooting (and actually select to pass once in a while), right? I think that was his main point.

presto123
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
Whatever happened to DC attacking the lane with that pretty floater? He doesn't float it anymore. He just gets his shot blocked. Better go back to floating:D

Heisenberg
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
I just want to reiterate that Josh played GREAT defense on Dirk tonight, not his fault Dirk's got an inhuman ability to hit garbage shots (even though they aren't for him). Kinda curious decision by Vogel to pull him for Tyler in the first IMO.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
Man you are falling in love here ......... :laugh::laugh:

I have a feeling it will either be a great story or a disaster. I would imagine that if he lives up to his potential and keeps his nose clean, it will be a spectacular story. Of course, he's barely an adult and I still fear it will end ugly.

Such is life. If you don't take any risks, it's pretty boring...

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
What happens when defenses figure out that he isn't even trying to make the shot and stop fouling? Will he stop throwing up garbage shots? I doubt it.

They haven't figured it out yet so he should keep doing it, he got Dirk to foul him twice and Josh got the 3rd foul making Dirk go to the bench, was that a bad thing to do?

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:46 AM
You called him a "I mean he is a scorer from high school thur college. hmm"

So I think what I said has everything to do with it, proving he is not a scorer, rather he is a creator.

If you are gonna quote someone put it all up there, not just part of it. Do you work in media? just wondering!

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:46 AM
As for the game, I thought we played fine. The Mavs are one of the better teams in the league, loaded with vets and have been hot (8 game win streak). Why would anyone thing a sub .500 team of rookies and second year players would beat them?

This is something that I would like to hear people saying more. This wasn't a game like the OKC game where we were completely outclassed. We played some good ball tonight against one of, it not the best team in the league.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 01:48 AM
This is something that I would like to hear people saying more. This wasn't a game like the OKC game where we were completely outclassed. We played some good ball tonight against one of, it not the best team in the league.

Yes, if we are fortunate we will start to legitimately compete with a team like that in a year or two.

This team is not ready...even if Lance is...:D

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:49 AM
Honestly, How can you say that? Really? Wow, You like Nostradamus?
I mean he is a scorer from high school thur college. hmm
People crack me up!

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

Are you happy? Does this change what I posted? Are you upset I left out the part about Nostradamus or the dancing bananas? You called him a scorer, when he is proving he is a creator.

And no I don't work in the media, but once I graduate I will.

presto123
03-05-2011, 01:49 AM
This is something that I would like to hear people saying more. This wasn't a game like the OKC game where we were completely outclassed. We played some good ball tonight against one of, it not the best team in the league.


Dirk is almost impossible to guard sometimes being that tall and a deadly fade away jumper. How the heck do you defend that?

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:49 AM
They haven't figured it out yet so he should keep doing it, he got Dirk to foul him twice and Josh got the 3rd foul making Dirk go to the bench, was that a bad thing to do?

Where did anyone start arguing about drawing fouls being a bad thing? You are making up your own argument with yourself.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:49 AM
Yes, if we are fortunate we will start to legitimately compete with a team like that in a year or two.

This team is not ready...even if Lance is...:D

:laugh:nice:laugh:

Merz
03-05-2011, 01:51 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here.

Tyler Hansbrough is our most valuable player. The only guy who NEVER quits. Even when he's as frustrated as possible, the guy simply never quits. He makes plays he has no business making.

Also, Lance is going to be one hell of a player. Better than our other 2 point guards by far.

Overall, I don't agree with that...but I do believe that (at least for now) the Pacers seem to go as Tyler goes. When Tyler is on his game, hitting his mid-range shot, and being too physical for the other team, the Pacers are a tough team for almost anyone...but when we get bad Tyler (the one who can't hit a shot and plays out of control) the Pacers are not very good.

Of course this can change and will change with improvement from the other young players.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:51 AM
Yes, if we are fortunate we will start to legitimately compete with a team like that in a year or two.

This team is not ready...even if Lance is...:D

Exactly. We were teased with the Vogel hiring hot streak.

We clearly are better than the bottom feeders in the league. 8th in the east is about right for us right now. This team needs some pieces, like a starting PF, but lets see how our guys develop before we write them off.

presto123
03-05-2011, 01:52 AM
Lance is so freakin quick when he learns how to finish.......watch out. Does he have more ceiling than George?

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 01:53 AM
Dirk is almost impossible to guard sometimes being that tall and a deadly fade away jumper. How the heck do you defend that?

You can't, Dirk is a great player, one that should be in more MVP discussions. They are a much better team with him. He creates such a mismatch and has improved his defense drastically since he came into the league. I like Dirk a lot.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 01:55 AM
Are you happy? Does this change what I posted? Are you upset I left out the part about Nostradamus or the dancing bananas? You called him a scorer, when he is proving he is a creator.

And no I don't work in the media, but once I graduate I will.

All I was asking is how can you predict him being special at PG but he won't be special at SG?

Like Magic was Special at SG and he was special at PG, why not Lance?

vnzla81
03-05-2011, 01:57 AM
Where did anyone start arguing about drawing fouls being a bad thing? You are making up your own argument with yourself.

You are saying that they are going to figure it out and because of that he needs to stop taking them, I am arguing that the reason why he does this is because he takes it to the hoop and draws fouls, If you don't like him taking this shots because his porcentage is low or gets blocked you are pretty much stoping him for drawing fouls, that is why I asked that question.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 02:00 AM
All I was asking is how can you predict him being special at PG but he won't be special at SG?

Like Magic was Special at SG and he was special at PG, why not Lance?

Because in the NBA his skill set translates better at the PG spot. Comparing him to Magic isn't the best of ideas considering he played Center for the Lakers and won finals MVP...

joeyd
03-05-2011, 02:02 AM
Reggie and Foster don't take the same types of shots. (And Foster shooting sub .500 from where he shoots is truly pathetic.)
Josh and Tyler do take the same types of shots. Josh is just a lot more judicious with the shots he takes. Tyler obviously has no qualms about taking bad shots. Bad shots result in bad shooting percentages.
Comparing Reggie and Foster is like comparing apples and HDTVs.
Comparing Josh and Tyler is like comparing apples and pears.

You are exercising selective memory here. We tend to remember when someone misses easy shots. I admit that he does miss a lot of bunnies, mostly because they are rushed put backs. Yeah, it's frustrating to watch sometimes, but keep in mind that there have been several games this season where half of his average of 4 shot attempts or so per game came as a result of having to settle for mid- to long-range jumpers because he receives a pass just as the shot clock is expiring! This sort of puts things in perspective.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 02:07 AM
Because in the NBA his skill set translates better at the PG spot. Comparing him to Magic isn't the best of ideas considering he played Center for the Lakers and won finals MVP...

WOW, You must be special!

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 02:08 AM
WOW, You must be special!

What the hell does that even mean?

MaHa3000
03-05-2011, 02:40 AM
Bird did a great Job with last years draft.

There was a moment in this game (2nd qrt) where Lance was winded and wanted to come out of the game. Vogel ignored Lance becuase he was playing so well. Then Lance played himself to the bench by creating a little run that caused Carlise to call time out.

Lance gets a minute or two to catch his breath then is reinserted at SG along side of A.J.. At very the next chance the pacers have to bring the ball down Lance calls for the inbounds pass as to say to A.J. " I"ve got this". Moves the ball down the court to draw two defenders and does a no-look pass to Tyler who draws the foul.

Just thought that was interesting. Makes me think Bird should get more credit for the talent he has brought to this franchise. Lance and Paul are special. I'm very excited about our future.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 02:44 AM
Bird did a great Job with last years draft.

There was a moment in this game (2nd qrt) where Lance was winded and wanted to come out of the game. Vogel ignored Lance becuase he was playing so well. Then Lance played himself to the bench by creating a little run that caused Carlise to call time out.

Lance gets a minute or two to catch his breath then is reinserted at SG along side of A.J.. At very the next chance the pacers have to bring the ball down Lance calls for the inbounds pass as to say to A.J. " I"ve got this". Moves the ball down the court to draw two defenders and does a no-look pass to Tyler who draws the foul.

Just thought that was interesting. Makes me think Bird should get more credit for the talent he has brought to this franchise. Lance and Paul are special. I'm very excited about our future.

Nice...spot on....me too!!!

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 02:45 AM
They players really need to pay more attention when Lance is on the court because his vision is so good. He gets them the ball quicker than they expect. I remember Lance had a sweet behind the back pass to Tyler for an easy jumper, but Tyler wasn't ready and hesitated and then missed the shot.

cdash
03-05-2011, 02:47 AM
WOW, You must be special!

Dude...lay off. He's a good poster and I can tell that in multiple threads you are trying to push his buttons. If you get a good discussion going with him it would be far more productive than trying to antagonize him the whole time.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 02:51 AM
Dude...lay off. He's a good poster and I can tell that in multiple threads you are trying to push his buttons. If you get a good discussion going with him it would be far more productive than trying to antagonize him the whole time.

I'm not try to do anything, I was typing to someone else earlier and he butted in. I was asking someone else a question. I feel he's starting to push my buttons.:happydanc

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 02:54 AM
I'm not try to do anything, I was typing to someone else earlier and he butted in. I was asking someone else a question. I feel he's starting to push my buttons.:happydanc

Wait, people can't comment on your posts on an internet forum? Oh I am so sorry, my understanding of an internet forum is incorrect I guess:rolleyes:

You made a dumb statement, I called you out on it.

cdash
03-05-2011, 02:54 AM
Alright, I haven't read much of this thread and watched the entire game at a bar with no sound, but here are my random observations:

-I don't know what the hell has happened to him, but DC has looked all kinds of awful lately. His shot is getting blocked left and right, he's not creating for anyone else, and he just seems to lack confidence. I really hope he can get it back. I know he's a good player and not nearly as bad as he has looked lately.

-Lance really impressed me tonight. He was creating for others instead of looking for his shot exclusively tonight. I've been in the "he's not a point guard" camp since the day we drafted him, but truth be told he's looked like more of a point guard than Darren or AJ since he's gotten minutes. I really like the kid.

-McRoberts played well tonight. You can't blame him or Tyler for Dirk. That's just Dirk. He does that. He makes fadeaway jumpers on everyone and there's nothing you can do about it.

-Roy has to lead all big men in traveling violations this year. He needs to work more on his footwork.

-Our defense is bad. We have to do something about this.

-I thought Danny played pretty well tonight. He's gotten some flak around here lately but I thought he attacked the rim and kept us in the game tonight.

MaHa3000
03-05-2011, 02:56 AM
Funny thing was when Rick put in Brewer to guard Danny. The next three times danny has the ball he draws a foul from Brewer. Brewer looks to admit defeat and then goes to the bench. Way to go DG! lol

cdash
03-05-2011, 02:56 AM
Funny thing was when Rick put in Brewer to guard Danny. The next three times danny has the ball he draws a foul from Brewer. Brewer looks to admit defeat and then goes to the bench. Way to go DG! lol

Brewer sucks :laugh:

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 02:57 AM
Alright, I haven't read much of this thread and watched the entire game at a bar with no sound, but here are my random observations:

-I don't know what the hell has happened to him, but DC has looked all kinds of awful lately. His shot is getting blocked left and right, he's not creating for anyone else, and he just seems to lack confidence. I really hope he can get it back. I know he's a good player and not nearly as bad as he has looked lately.

-Lance really impressed me tonight. He was creating for others instead of looking for his shot exclusively tonight. I've been in the "he's not a point guard" camp since the day we drafted him, but truth be told he's looked like more of a point guard than Darren or AJ since he's gotten minutes. I really like the kid.

-McRoberts played well tonight. You can't blame him or Tyler for Dirk. That's just Dirk. He does that. He makes fadeaway jumpers on everyone and there's nothing you can do about it.

-Roy has to lead all big men in traveling violations this year. He needs to work more on his footwork.

-Our defense is bad. We have to do something about this.

-I thought Danny played pretty well tonight. He's gotten some flak around here lately but I thought he attacked the rim and kept us in the game tonight.

Well analyzed, you did well from the bar!

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 02:59 AM
Alright, I haven't read much of this thread and watched the entire game at a bar with no sound, but here are my random observations:

-I don't know what the hell has happened to him, but DC has looked all kinds of awful lately. His shot is getting blocked left and right, he's not creating for anyone else, and he just seems to lack confidence. I really hope he can get it back. I know he's a good player and not nearly as bad as he has looked lately.

-Lance really impressed me tonight. He was creating for others instead of looking for his shot exclusively tonight. I've been in the "he's not a point guard" camp since the day we drafted him, but truth be told he's looked like more of a point guard than Darren or AJ since he's gotten minutes. I really like the kid.

-McRoberts played well tonight. You can't blame him or Tyler for Dirk. That's just Dirk. He does that. He makes fadeaway jumpers on everyone and there's nothing you can do about it.

-Roy has to lead all big men in traveling violations this year. He needs to work more on his footwork.

-Our defense is bad. We have to do something about this.

-I thought Danny played pretty well tonight. He's gotten some flak around here lately but I thought he attacked the rim and kept us in the game tonight.

Thats pretty much what I saw too. I'm very worried about our defense. It's been like this since January really. And it's not just one guy. Its the whole team. I still think we are way too eager on help defense.

CableKC
03-05-2011, 03:00 AM
Field Goal Percentage.

Josh (this season) .532
Josh (career) .512

Tyler (this season) .431
Tyler (career) .403



Yet Tyler is considered the better scorer. Add in Josh being a better passer and Josh leads to more efficient scoring for the Pacers.
You have to consider one more thing.......Hansbrough gets to the line far more times then McBob where he fits the "attack the basket to draw fouls" offense that Vogel wants.

You can't compare the 2 players....they have different styles when it comes to the offensive end.

cdash
03-05-2011, 03:09 AM
Thats pretty much what I saw too. I'm very worried about our defense. It's been like this since January really. And it's not just one guy. Its the whole team. I still think we are way too eager on help defense.

The Mavs did make a bunch of WTF shots tonight, but still there is something seriously wrong with our defense. I agree we can't blame it on one guy, and it really makes it a lot easier that Dunleavy is hurt because we can't blame it all on him :laugh:. Our team defensive schemes are rough. Part of that is the players, part of that is on the coaches. I watch a team like Chicago and they don't have a team full of great defenders, but they are one of the best defensive teams in the league.

I know it seems like a foregone conclusion that we will be in the playoffs, but we need to play better basketball. That's not coming from tonight either--I never expected to beat an elite team like Dallas on their home court. All around, I'm actually fairly pleased with how we played tonight, but we could have easily given up 125+ points tonight. Dallas got a little cold late in the 3rd or the beginning of the 4th.

Sookie
03-05-2011, 03:16 AM
As for Lance, if you still don't think he can play as a PG, I think you're confusing ability with the fact that he's not your personal preference with regards to what kind of a PG he is. He'll never be confused for Mark Jackson, but he can clearly make terrific passes, he's clearly more than willing to do so, he clearly is comfortable handling the ball with smaller guards defending him,and his game is clearly centered around having the ball in his hands, which is why it makes the most sense to play him at the position where he'll handle the ball most often.

It depends on what your definition of a PG is.

You call a PG a guy who has the ball in his hands 90% of the time and either
1. Takes the shot himself
2. Gets stuck and makes a pass for a bail out shot (and the player takes that shot. Those were going in tonight, so he got a ton of assists. He's also more able to do this than a player like DC or TJ, who end up turning it over because they are so small.)
3. Plays the PnR and gets an assist off that. (Which he is good at)

If you want to run that offense, go right ahead and call him a point guard. But you aren't going to get to run any other kind of offense, and that kind of offense doesn't make other players better, doesn't get them involved, and is essentially a one man show.

Which is why I think that should be an option in the offense, not THE offense, with another PG that'll make the decision of when that option is used.

And to me, a point guard needs to be able to run an offense, not have to be the offense. That's my definition. If we have different definitions, then so be it. But perhaps that's where people differ in this argument.

aside from this, even though we lost I thought the energy was better this game. And I thought Vogel did a better job with rotations. If he keeps this pattern he can go with the 11 players, and it'll work well.

xIndyFan
03-05-2011, 03:17 AM
Alright, I haven't read much of this thread and watched the entire game at a bar with no sound, but here are my random observations:

-McRoberts played well tonight. You can't blame him or Tyler for Dirk. That's just Dirk. He does that. He makes fadeaway jumpers on everyone and there's nothing you can do about it.


yeah, me too. really like the little mid-range jumper. josh needs to break that out more often.

cdash
03-05-2011, 03:20 AM
yeah, me too. really like the little mid-range jumper. josh needs to break that out more often.

Yeah, I agree. I haven't seen enough of Josh's midrange game. He needs to forget about the three pointers and work on those midrange shots.

ilive4sports
03-05-2011, 03:22 AM
It depends on what your definition of a PG is.

You call a PG a guy who has the ball in his hands 90% of the time and either
1. Takes the shot himself
2. Gets stuck and makes a pass for a bail out shot (and the player takes that shot. Those were going in tonight, so he got a ton of assists.)
3. Plays the PnR and gets an assist off that. (Which he is good at)

If you want to run that offense, go right ahead and call him a point guard. But you aren't going to get to run any other kind of offense, and that kind of offense doesn't make other players better, doesn't get them involved, and is essentially a one man show.

Which is why I think that should be an option in the offense, not THE offense, with another PG that'll make the decision of when that option is used.

And to me, a point guard needs to be able to run an offense, not have to be the offense. That's my definition. If we have different definitions, then so be it.

I define a PG as the main ball handler, a creator and a guy who runs the offense. Lance is already good at two of those three. Running the offense will come with experience. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he can't run the offense, especially any better than DC or AJ.

MaHa3000
03-05-2011, 03:25 AM
DC is a SG in a little pg's body.

This is a major issue. I would not have thought of this until tonight's game. (I'm slow)
Why did Collison look so much like a true point guard in NewOrleans? Why not with this Pacers team?

smj887
03-05-2011, 03:29 AM
Gets stuck and makes a pass for a bail out shot (and the player takes that shot. Those were going in tonight, so he got a ton of assists.

I remember a lob over a couple defenders for a Jeff Foster dunk and a kick out to PG for a wide open jumper. Neither of those came when he was stuck and making a pass for a bail out shot. But I don't remember the others very well. Could you elaborate on what plays he got stuck on and made a pass for a bail out shot, because I don't really remember him getting stuck at all except for the play where he traveled.



This is a major issue. I would not have thought of this until tonight's game. (I'm slow)
Why did Collison look so much like a true point guard in NewOrleans? Why not with this Pacers team?

I swear there's something in Indianapolis tap water that makes good point guards look below average. Or shoot up strip clubs...

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-05-2011, 03:44 AM
The lack of court vision is what frustrates me the most about DC. It's not just on the break or when he misses cutters, it happens in the half court too, which is astounding. He missed numerous mismatches. On one occasion Hansbrough had J. Kidd on him and DC didn't even look in his direction. Instead, he forced another one of his elbow, midrange jumpers.

Court vision can be improved by watching game tape and getting a feel of where players like to be and their tendencies. I don't want to speak about DC's work ethic because I'm not informed on it, but if we don't start seeing some improvement then he's not the answer at point for me. No point guard can be effective with blinders on.

Heisenberg
03-05-2011, 03:56 AM
In the history of the game, where's Dirk rank in terms of scoring ability? He's gotta be at least top 10 right?

imawhat
03-05-2011, 04:03 AM
If I see one more Danny iso I'm going to spontaneously combust. How many times must a play fail before one realizes it doesn't work well?

Sookie
03-05-2011, 04:14 AM
I remember a lob over a couple defenders for a Jeff Foster dunk and a kick out to PG for a wide open jumper. Neither of those came when he was stuck and making a pass for a bail out shot. But I don't remember the others very well. Could you elaborate on what plays he got stuck on and made a pass for a bail out shot, because I don't really remember him getting stuck at all except for the play where he traveled.




I swear there's something in Indianapolis tap water that makes good point guards look below average. Or shoot up strip clubs...

The lob he was stuck, he had stopped his dribble and left his feet, I think he was going to shoot but noticed Josh.

two times, He drove, ran into a double team around the basket, kicked it out to Tyler for a free throw line shot

one time he drove (on a fast break) got hit with the double team, passed it out to PG for a three.

The other two assists were off of PnRs

I'm 100% not saying those aren't good plays. They certainly were. He played his game well tonight. He drove to the basket and created a shot. He was in control and instead of forcing out a bad shot, he passed it out.

My point is that isn't a good offense and it would be much better to have that be an option in our offense instead of having it be the offense. And it's actually a good option, because even though he's looking to score, he is a willing passer.

However, assists are not necessarily the best indicator of how well a pg is running an offense. (Granted, tonight..with AJ clanking wide open shots and DC um...we won't go there..I understand why people would want Lance to be running the point at the end. I understand why Vogel didn't do it though too.)

And then not to mention, Lance is, at the very least, better than Dun defensively on SGs, not so much on PGs.

presto123
03-05-2011, 04:15 AM
If I see one more Danny iso I'm going to spontaneously combust. How many times must a play fail before one realizes it doesn't work well?

Probably as often as Collison driving the lane and getting his shot blocked:laugh:

Sookie
03-05-2011, 04:16 AM
The lack of court vision is what frustrates me the most about DC. It's not just on the break or when he misses cutters, it happens in the half court too, which is astounding. He missed numerous mismatches. On one occasion Hansbrough had J. Kidd on him and DC didn't even look in his direction. Instead, he forced another one of his elbow, midrange jumpers.

Court vision can be improved by watching game tape and getting a feel of where players like to be and their tendencies. I don't want to speak about DC's work ethic because I'm not informed on it, but if we don't start seeing some improvement then he's not the answer at point for me. No point guard can be effective with blinders on.

Well, it's not like DC has been around a consistent lineup this season. Or had a consistent anything.

I wonder though, if his height is a problem.

Cherokee
03-05-2011, 04:17 AM
I was impressed with Lance and Josh, and I would have liked to see a little more of them down the stretch. I like Tyler, but I wish he would learn to pass the ball more often. Also, while he had a good first half, he was shut down the second half and only scored two points. That is another reason he probably should have played fewer minutes down the stretch -- Dallas had him well under control by then.

presto123
03-05-2011, 04:20 AM
I was impressed with Lance and Josh, and I would have liked to see a little more of them down the stretch. I like Tyler, but I wish he would learn to pass the ball more often. Also, while he had a good first half, he was shut down the second half and only scored two points. That is another reason he probably should have played fewer minutes down the stretch -- Dallas had him well under control by then.


Lance AND Josh should have been in there at the end. I put this one on Vogel and I haven't had any complaints about Vogel so far. I don't mean the loss....I'm just talking about rotation.

PacersPride
03-05-2011, 04:27 AM
correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't darren collison a 2nd year point guard with a great attitude and work ethic who we got by trading troy murphy? i'm totally happy with him at this point.

i have had enough of the excuses for collison. ive been a supporter of his and think maybe he is hitting a sophmore wall or something but its time to accept the truth.

the thread about him having a low bball may be correct. we all know he is awful on defense. he turns it over way too many times, way too careless with the ball, forcing shots, certainly is a shoot first pass second pg right now. makes terrible decisions with the basketball, and have i mentioned his defense is awful.

unfortunately, i think Collison is a backup pg. i realize he is still young and many other trials/tribulations collison is facing, but a point gaurd exhibits certain skills and leadership intangiables, Collison doesnt have that right now and he may never.

i would be okay with price starting because he is a more natural point gaurd. defensively, he isnt any worse than collison either.

dc makes poor decisions again and again and again.. call it low bball or inexperience but it needs to improve or were in the market for a point, unless stephenson is the future at the postion.

Will Galen
03-05-2011, 04:44 AM
If I see one more Danny iso I'm going to spontaneously combust. How many times must a play fail before one realizes it doesn't work well?

Danny needs to work on this during the off season. He gets stopped around the free throw line on his drives a lot. What he needs in that position is a couple go to moves. For instant a floater like Reggie's and a fade away like Dirk's. That way he's got two moves that can bail him out.

He could also get fouled a lot if they didn't know which he was shooting. For instant if they think he's shooting the fade away and he shoots the floater he'll get fouled just about every time because they will be jumping into him. The other side of the coin is if they think he's shooting the floater and try to avoid fouling him and he shoots the fade away he's going to have an open shot.

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-05-2011, 04:55 AM
Well, it's not like DC has been around a consistent lineup this season. Or had a consistent anything.

I wonder though, if his height is a problem.

I don't think the different lineups are the issue. Not to keep piling on the praise for Lance, as it's already abundant in this thread, but he has much less of a feel for the lineups in game situations and his vision is already miles ahead of DC's.

I don't want to sound like I'm giving up on DC, and I know he's only a second year player with room to grow, but if the missed opportunities are frustrating for me, I can only imagine how frustrating they might be for a teammate who filled the lane and had an easy bucket only to have DC not even glance in his direction.

The height is a legitimate concern. DC should ask Chris Paul for tips on how to overcome his height to improve his court vision.

nyballer31
03-05-2011, 05:03 AM
As for Lance, if you still don't think he can play as a PG, I think you're confusing ability with the fact that he's not your personal preference with regards to what kind of a PG he is. He'll never be confused for Mark Jackson, but he can clearly make terrific passes, he's clearly more than willing to do so, he clearly is comfortable handling the ball with smaller guards defending him,and his game is clearly centered around having the ball in his hands, which is why it makes the most sense to play him at the position where he'll handle the ball most often.

You can say that about most of the ball dominant sg's in the league though.Brandon Roy,D.Wade,Joe Johnson t-mac in his prime they all ran the offense from the two guard spot but they also happen to call there own number alot and Lance is similar to that.

I also think people are skeptical of the whole turn the SG into PG.Rarely is it sucessful. People who have followed him know that he has a reputation of being a scorer ,plus he's a big guy he looks like a full back playing the pg spot.It's going to take time for people to buy into it.

Taterhead
03-05-2011, 05:07 AM
I've said it from day one, Lance is a natural PG. What makes a PG to me is how well he sees the floor and how he dictates the flow of the game. Lance has that command. He knows what he wants to do. He knows how to get it done, and not just for himself either, that's a myth. So far he's struggled finishing around the hoop. And that's funny to me because he has always been known as a guy who can get to the basket and finish with the best of them. That's his game. On top of that command and ability to get in the paint, he is a dead eye mid range shooter off the bounce. Once he gets a 3 point shot he is gonna be a darn tough cover for any PG in the league. With his size and length he could be as good as there is, as long as he truly dedicates himself to his craft.

My only worry with him is, what happens once he cashes in on all his hard work? Will he stay hungry? I think so, but he does have a few red flags.

Dr. Awesome
03-05-2011, 05:13 AM
Field Goal Percentage.

Josh (this season) .532
Josh (career) .512

Tyler (this season) .431
Tyler (career) .403



Yet Tyler is considered the better scorer. Add in Josh being a better passer and Josh leads to more efficient scoring for the Pacers.

By that logic Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Hakeem.

Taterhead
03-05-2011, 05:14 AM
You can say that about most of the ball dominant sg's in the league though.Brandon Roy,D.Wade,Joe Johnson t-mac in his prime they all ran the offense from the two guard spot but they also happen to call there own number alot and Lance is similar to that.

I also think people are skeptical of the whole turn the SG into PG.Rarely is it sucessful. People who have followed him know that he has a reputation of being a scorer ,plus he's a big guy he looks like a full back playing the pg spot.It's going to take time for people to buy into it.

What does any other situation have to do with Lance? There have been many instances where a college SG has turned into a PG in the Pro's. And even if it had never happened, that still doesn't mean Lance can't play PG.

Also, where did this myth come from that PG's can't be great scorers?

lavell12
03-05-2011, 05:41 AM
By that logic Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Hakeem.

well we were discussing two guys that everyone admits are very close in talent level and much more similar than those two. It is just part of the argument about Josh vs Tyler.

nyballer31
03-05-2011, 05:46 AM
What does any other situation have to do with Lance? There have been many instances where a college SG has turned into a PG in the Pro's. And even if it had never happened, that still doesn't mean Lance can't play PG.

Also, where did this myth come from that PG's can't be great scorers?


I never said Lance can't play pg.He's going to play with the ball in his hands either way.I was simply bringing up the point that there are alot of ball dominant sg's in the league that run the offense and yet are not considered pgs. I think people are getting way to caught up in this is he a pg or a two guard stuff.

The Jackson shimmy
03-05-2011, 06:51 AM
DC is more or less the same 'SG in a PG's body' that he was at UCLA.

Will he get better ? Will his 'IQ' at PG improve ?

Presumably, but who knows. There is some truth in the old saying that
'PGs are born, not made'.

Justin Tyme
03-05-2011, 07:37 AM
I do think that Rush had the best game out there tonight. only played like 19 minutes but he did well.



Who was guarding 6'2" SG Roddy Beaubois in the 1st qtr when he went off on the Pacers??

TheDon
03-05-2011, 07:41 AM
Why did Collison look so much like a true point guard in NewOrleans?


Having David West to run the pick n roll with certainly helps.

Justin Tyme
03-05-2011, 08:06 AM
Why did Collison look so much like a true point guard in NewOrleans? Why not with this Pacers team?



NO game system is built around CP3. DC was able to come in and fill that role to a point. The system made DC look better than he was. Look at how many games NO won/loss when DC was the starting PG. This is why DC doesn't look as good as a Pacer. It was also stated he played good "D". LOL!

Sure, DC is "only in his 2nd year", and there is the sophmore jinx theory too, but as far as I'm concerned the best thing out of the DC/Murphy trade was getting rid of Murphy. If they hadn't, McBob and Hans would be dividing up 15-18 of PF PT, and we'd still be playing stretch forward ball. Neither one would have had the opportunity to grow as they have this year.

I'm not convinced DC is the answer to the Pacers PG problem anymore than I am Price or Stephenson is. I'd play Stephenson more to get a feel for his PG abilities, and if I wasn't confident in any of the 3 being the answer to the future Pacers PG, I'd look to get one that can be. 3 b/u quality PG's isn't the answer to the future.

pathil275
03-05-2011, 08:08 AM
Just watched the game and I am content with the overall performance. Too many turnovers here and there, but all in all they played a really good game on the road. The Mavericks are one of the 5 best teams in the league, especially on their home court and with Dirk in a don't-miss mode it is incredibly hard to win against them.

Lance played well in the first half. 6 assists in 12 minutes, wow. I can't remember a Pacer dishing out 6 assists in a game at all this season. But I am not convinced with the combo of AJ and Lance out there. Should be either Lance or AJ with George at the 2 spot.

SMosley21
03-05-2011, 09:27 AM
We lost and have been losing because our big 3 have been stinking it up for the most part. Maybe we should start calling them the little 3. Maybe the goon squad should start.

We don't have a big 3. Hell, I wouldn't even call them the little 3. They're just 3 of our 15 lately.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 09:51 AM
Exactly. We were teased with the Vogel hiring hot streak.

We clearly are better than the bottom feeders in the league. 8th in the east is about right for us right now. This team needs some pieces, like a starting PF, but lets see how our guys develop before we write them off.

I think if you monitored the schedule when Vogel started, it was obviously an easier stretch.

That's not to say we haven't seen improvement. In fact, the argument was that you had to play the vets to win games yet our rookies are easily doing just as well. There has been absolutely no drop-off with the rookies getting more time and there's a strong argument we are a little better.

Combine this with the fact the players have had very little time playing together, it's amazing we are doing this well with a bunch of rookies and 2nd year players getting huge minutes.

BTW, this is a perfect situation running up to the playoffs. We have a shot to be a dangerous team this year.

90'sNBARocked
03-05-2011, 09:52 AM
Lance is just a ball player period. He has the skills and the swag to be something special. You know he can be great when his perceived weakness is conduct off court

He is a guard, who cares if you classify him as a PG or SG

In very limited minutes he has shown better court vision than DC or AJ. He has a lot to improve on, but if his work ethic matches or exceeds his talents

watch out

As far as DC , I dont know what to say other than my prior expectations for him were way overblown

dohman
03-05-2011, 09:55 AM
Who was guarding 6'2" SG Roddy Beaubois in the 1st qtr when he went off on the Pacers??

Darren was. Rush was on kidd

OakMoses
03-05-2011, 10:07 AM
Who was guarding 6'2" SG Roddy Beaubois in the 1st qtr when he went off on the Pacers??

Darren Collison. Rush was guarding Kidd.

This may open a can of worms...

There's so much irony in reading this thread. At the beginning of the year, the conventional wisdom on this board said that if we just gave the keys of the offense to DC and AJ, we'd be great. Now they have all the freedom they could possibly ask for and we think that DC sucks and AJ's a black hole. Hmmm...

The truth of the matter is that this team (for the most part) is only as good as Roy Hibbert. Once upon a time, when Roy was playing well, we were 11-10 with He Who Shall Not Be Named as coach. Then Roy started to suck and we made a change. Then Roy was good again for a while and we went 9-3. Now Roy has returned to mediocrity and we're losing. This team is good when Roy plays like the #2 option. He just doesn't do that often enough for this team to actually be good.

Let's move on to actual game observations:

Nowitzki and Terry made some ridiculous shots against good defense, but was anybody really surprised? When the Pacers have a couple of guys who can make those shots without surprising everyone, we'll probably be a 50+ win team too.

There are four guys on this team who have made me say "wow" with passes they have made this season: McRoberts, Hibbert, George, and Stephenson. Granger has also improved quite a bit as a passer over the past couple seasons.

I agree with the general opinion of all the "black holes" in the goon squad. Jones and Tyler never want to pass the ball. I don't think AJ's a black hole, but he shoots more than I'd like. It's sad because the most talented guy on floor (Paul George) gets completely overlooked.

I agree with Buck that Lance's best chance to be special is as a PG, but I think the jury's still a long way out on whether or not he can play PG full-time without being a liability. It should be pointed out that being special is different from being good or very good. Buck didn't say that Lance wasn't good enough to be an NBA SG. Special = Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Chris Paul. Good = Jameer Nelson, Raymond Felton. As a PG Lance has some qualities (size, strength) that give him the chance to be completely unstoppable at times. At SG he doesn't have the huge advantages in those attributes.

From what I've seen so far, Lance has the half-court offensive game to be a PG. The one play from last night that really impressed me was a PnP he ran with Tyler. The impressive thing was the timing of the pass. He passed the ball as soon as he possibly could. He didn't need to wait to see the play developing. He knew Tyler's man was following him, so as soon as he turned the corner and got sliver of space, he made the pass. That's the kind of play we don't see from our other PG's. Considering that he'd played about 40 NBA minutes at that point, it was pretty impressive.

I think Lance will always struggle defensively at the PG position. I think he will likely have a lot of trouble getting the ball up the court against really good pressure defense.

All in all, I thought this was a pretty good game for the Pacers. We played a much, much better team and made them work hard all night long. If Terry and Nowitzki hadn't been great, we may well have one. I don't know that there's a whole lot more we can ask for at this point.

OakMoses
03-05-2011, 10:08 AM
Darren was. Rush was on kidd

Beat me to the punch. That's what I get for writing too much.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 10:09 AM
Lance is just a ball player period. He has the skills and the swag to be something special. You know he can be great when his perceived weakness is conduct off court

He is a guard, who cares if you classify him as a PG or SG

In very limited minutes he has shown better court vision than DC or AJ. He has a lot to improve on, but if his work ethic matches or exceeds his talents

watch out

As far as DC , I dont know what to say other than my prior expectations for him were way overblown

IDK. Lance looks far better when he's responsible for bringing the ball up the court. He attacks and breaks down the defense. In contrast, the defense attacks and breaks down our other PG's. If the defense tries to attack Lance, he uses his size and ability to dish to burn them. If pressured, he might be able to use his jukes to get fouled so they may lay off of him. A lot is TBD on this.

But I like what I see so far. He pushes it and unlike our other PG's he can find guys open. The simple truth is he is capable of making his team mates look better. DC and AJ don't have that in their toolbox.

Personally, I believe the Pacers have to be considering Lance as the future PG. ...and this gets to the next question. Can they trust him?

owl
03-05-2011, 10:14 AM
Well, it's not like DC has been around a consistent lineup this season. Or had a consistent anything.

I wonder though, if his height is a problem.


There are shorter points in the league but they get by. I believe his strength is a great hindrance. Chris Paul is VERY strong and that offsets any height issues. However to be taller and stronger is obviously the way to go for an elite point guard. Westbrook has height, strength and leaping ability and speed. Collison has speed.

Pacersalltheway10
03-05-2011, 10:16 AM
NO game system is built around CP3. DC was able to come in and fill that role to a point. The system made DC look better than he was. Look at how many games NO won/loss when DC was the starting PG. This is why DC doesn't look as good as a Pacer. It was also stated he played good "D". LOL!

Sure, DC is "only in his 2nd year", and there is the sophmore jinx theory too, but as far as I'm concerned the best thing out of the DC/Murphy trade was getting rid of Murphy. If they hadn't, McBob and Hans would be dividing up 15-18 of PF PT, and we'd still be playing stretch forward ball. Neither one would have had the opportunity to grow as they have this year.

I'm not convinced DC is the answer to the Pacers PG problem anymore than I am Price or Stephenson is. I'd play Stephenson more to get a feel for his PG abilities, and if I wasn't confident in any of the 3 being the answer to the future Pacers PG, I'd look to get one that can be. 3 b/u quality PG's isn't the answer to the future.

NO didnt have that good of players last year excpt d. West. To say the W/L part is on collison is untrue for the most part.

DrFife
03-05-2011, 10:17 AM
How cool would it be if Larry arranged for Lance to spend some time with none other than Magic? I can see Lance sitting in Larry's office, trying hard not to let his eyes bug out of his head, as Larry explains his directive at season's end:

"Lance, I like you, man, but you've got to work harder than anyone to develop all that potential in ya. So I've arranged for you to spend some time this summer with the guy you should learn from: Magic. You've got really good passing skills; but you can learn from him. You've got a nice shot and you attack the basket. You can learn from him. I see how the others draw energy from you, and how you try to involve them. Well, there ain't no one better than Magic was at that. And defense? Hey, Magic's bigger than you and slower than you, but he was a helluva lot better at team defense than you are right now.... And hell, Magic knows something about dealin' with the ladies too.... The question is, will you listen to him? Will you work harder than you ever have to do what he tells ya? I don't ask for help from friends and former players very often. Bill's done some nice work with Roy. This is the first time I've asked Magic for help. But I think you're worth it. I hope you show us--me, him, and mostly yourself--that you are."

colts19
03-05-2011, 10:18 AM
Is shooting % the main thing you use to judge a players offensive game? If it is than Jeff foster is a better offensive player than Reggie Miller

career stats:
Foster .496
Reggie .471

Come on unclebuck, cherry picking numbers to make a point. I know your better than that.;)

Pacersalltheway10
03-05-2011, 10:25 AM
How cool would it be if Larry arranged for Lance to spend some time with none other than Magic? I can see Lance sitting in Larry's office, trying hard not to let his eyes bug out of his head, as Larry explains his directive at season's end:

"Lance, I like you, man, but you've got to work harder than anyone to develop all that potential in ya. So I've arranged for you to spend some time this summer with the guy you should learn from: Magic. You've got really good passing skills; but you can learn from him. You've got a nice shot and you attack the basket. You can learn from him. I see how the others draw energy from you, and how you try to involve them. Well, there ain't no one better than Magic was at that. And defense? Hey, Magic's bigger than you and slower than you, but he was a helluva lot better at team defense than you are right now.... And hell, Magic knows something about dealin' with the ladies too.... The question is, will you listen to him? Will you work harder than you ever have to do what he tells ya? I don't ask for help from friends and former players very often. Bill's done some nice work with Roy. This is the first time I've asked Magic for help. But I think you're worth it. I hope you show us--me, him, and mostly yourself--that you are."

Send lance to Magic. Hibbert to Walton. Collison to Mark Jackson. PG24 to Reggie and Danny to Scottie Pippen.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2011, 10:46 AM
Who was guarding 6'2" SG Roddy Beaubois in the 1st qtr when he went off on the Pacers??

:happydancYour right, I was speaking of his offense and didn't note that. He was effecient on offense.:happydanc

Justin Tyme
03-05-2011, 11:35 AM
As far as DC , I dont know what to say other than my prior expectations for him were way overblown


Most were including the Pacers FO.

Justin Tyme
03-05-2011, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=DrFife;1185307]

And hell, Magic knows something about dealin' with the ladies too../QUOTE]



Hum, isn't that where Magic got HIV positive, "with the ladies"?

Justin Tyme
03-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Send lance to Magic. Hibbert to Walton. Collison to Mark Jackson. PG24 to Reggie and Danny to Scottie Pippen.


If the Pacers won't hire and pay for a BIG man coach, why do you think they are going pay for this help?

SMosley21
03-05-2011, 12:01 PM
5-13. How many of those were jumpers I don't know. Probably most.

Without going back and looking at the shot chart, all I know is that Tyler had 13 points last night and 11 of them came in the first half. His hustle was there in the 2nd half but he was an absolute bag of crap on the offensive end of the floor after halftime. McRoberts should have been in the game that last 6 minutes.

xIndyFan
03-05-2011, 12:15 PM
Without going back and looking at the shot chart, all I know is that Tyler had 13 points last night and 11 of them came in the first half. His hustle was there in the 2nd half but he was an absolute bag of crap on the offensive end of the floor after halftime. McRoberts should have been in the game that last 6 minutes.

if josh can continue to hit that nice little mid-range shot he showed tonight, he might be next time. showing any kind of offense other than hustle points will go a long way towards more minutes for josh.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:21 PM
They haven't figured it out yet so he should keep doing it, he got Dirk to foul him twice and Josh got the 3rd foul making Dirk go to the bench, was that a bad thing to do?

That isn't even true.

Dirk's first foul was on Brandon when Josh threw him a really good outlet pass that got him ahead of the pack. People were debating whether or not it should have been flagrant.

His second was on Tyler when he made a good move and got Dirk to hack him on a turnaround jumper.

His third was on Josh's drive when he was completely fooled.

Tyler's foul drawing is a good thing. But I don't like that when his jumper is off, as it often is, it is the only thing.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 12:27 PM
Tonight's PG matchup should be fun to see.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:29 PM
Tonight's PG matchup should be fun to see.

You must be a Lowry or Dragic fan.

BillS
03-05-2011, 12:36 PM
The thing about Tyler is I think he is the ONLY guy who shoots a mid-range jumper with any kind of confidence, much less accuracy.

He has been being forced a little farther out than I am comfortable seeing recently, though he still has knocked down quite a few I didn't suspect, but anything from 12-16 feet he is pretty solid on.

His misses come from driving into traffic and not getting the foul. That aggression gets the foul call a lot of the time (and I'd like to see more from other players, as it is one of the huge reasons we're actually getting to the FT line recently), but he has to learn when the calls aren't going his way and adapt.

He's not even had a full season's worth of games under his belt. Give him another year, at least. I'm not sure where this idea comes from that players are who they show themselves to be in their first or second year and never change after that.

jcouts
03-05-2011, 12:44 PM
This is the type of loss that I don't mind, because the players came out and played hard and played as if they actually cared. Some games, I just don't see that from the team, in particular the starters. But the starters came out tonight with energy and intensity and fought. I liked it.

I'll never mind a loss if the effort is there and the final score is within ten.

My thoughts on Lance is that he's going to be a Ginobili type player. Coaches are going to want to reign him in and mitigate errors or spontaneous decisions that he might make...but, like Popovich once had to admit (and I remember him saying it in a press conference) sometimes you just have to let Manu be Manu, because in the end, the good's going to outweigh the bad, even though the bad's going to make you want to pull your hair out three or four times a game.

My guess is, Jim couldn't ever say that to himself.

I'd also like to see more of Lance and Paul in the game at the same time together.

Darren better put in the extra gym time this summer...

OakMoses
03-05-2011, 12:49 PM
If the Pacers won't hire and pay for a BIG man coach, why do you think they are going pay for this help?

Don't we have a 7 foot tall assistant coach?

Jon Theodore
03-05-2011, 12:52 PM
DC and Lance moved the offense well tonight.

This team just needs to step it up in close situations.

I still don't get why people are going after DC. If you watched the game, you'd see he played well. Just late into the game got sloppy.

Hopefully he continues this so everyone can stop whining with these new complaints.

I'll bite on this. Collison is our worst point guard right now (not counting TJ), yet he is the starter. AJ Price is absolutely a better option right now, the verdict on Stephenson is still out...but i'd say next year it won't even be a discussion. Price plays with passion, desire, and gets everybody else going. His man to man defense is the best on this team, besides Dahntay Jones. Also, watch him communicate on defense. He is a floor general, the type we haven't had since Mark Jackson. Communicating on defense is huge in this league, that is what makes teams like Boston so hard to beat. Collison just doesn't play defense....period.


Collison takes a lot of bad shots, some of them go in but they are still bad shots. If AJ Price never scored...i'd still rather have him play than Collison right now just because of his defense. Do you watch the games? Our starting line-up doesn't play as a team....to me a lot of that falls on Collison. Maybe that is an unfair, but I think Price would have the starters playing better.

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 12:52 PM
Don't we have a 7 foot tall assistant coach?

We have 2.

Jon Theodore
03-05-2011, 01:01 PM
Just a random comment....I was watching the game with my girlfriend last night who is clueless about basketball...but since I am a nut she has been trying to show interest.

She was watching Lance Stephenson and asked "Who is number 6, I haven't seen a guy that big dribble like that."

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:04 PM
The power forward and shooting guard positions get all the attention, but point guard play has been this team's Achillies' Heel all season.

Will Galen
03-05-2011, 01:11 PM
Don't we have a 7 foot tall assistant coach?


We have 2.

No, we have two coach's that are 6'10".

I hear announcers refer to guys that are under 7 foot, as 7 footers all the time. What's up with people doing that?

Trophy
03-05-2011, 01:30 PM
Potapenko and McCarty are pretty useless coaches.

If Vogel is the permanent coach or whoever it may be, I hope they bring in some better guys to their staff such as a former NBA head coach and maybe even Jeff once he retires.

Roy's said before that Jeff is a huge mentor for him in making him a better big man and I think Tyler can say the same.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 01:34 PM
Potapenko and McCarty are pretty useless coaches.

If Vogel is the permanent coach or whoever it may be, I hope they bring in some better guys to their staff such as a former NBA head coach and maybe even Jeff once he retires.

Roy's said before that Jeff is a huge mentor for him in making him a better big man and I think Tyler can say the same.

You dont know this for a fact that is pretty sad you judge coaches that you dont get to watch during pratice and pre game.

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:36 PM
Potapenko and McCarty are pretty useless coaches.

What an amazingly ridiculous statement. Just because you don't know what they are responsible for, or do on a daily basis, they must be utterly useless.

Naptown_Seth
03-05-2011, 01:37 PM
Roy is back to struggling and Collison literally never stays in front of anyone. All the inside scoring comes from Josh or Roy rotating to save the day.

Lance did have a much improved PG game.

Terry vs George was a schooling.

Why no Josh in the 4th? He was having a great game, both scoring and passing.

Foster was helpful. Tyler was and then quickly became a mess. As I always say, he has no real offense except off balance one-handed throws toward the rim.


And Danny....sheesh, Team USA burnout? I hope that's all it is.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 01:37 PM
Lance is just a ball player period. He has the skills and the swag to be something special. You know he can be great when his perceived weakness is conduct off court

He is a guard, who cares if you classify him as a PG or SG

In very limited minutes he has shown better court vision than DC or AJ. He has a lot to improve on, but if his work ethic matches or exceeds his talents

watch out

As far as DC , I dont know what to say other than my prior expectations for him were way overblown

This Lance can play 3 postions well. Doest matter where you play him.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 01:38 PM
You dont know this for a fact that is pretty sad you judge coaches that you dont get to watch during pratice and pre game.

Whoever might be the head coach next season might think differently and have a different mindset.

From interviews, coach V and McCarty sound like they bring in a mature mindset for the younger guys.

I've seen them during pre-game this season and they don't do a bad job, but it's up the the head coach who he wants on his staff.

You assume a lot too.

Sollozzo
03-05-2011, 01:38 PM
In the history of the game, where's Dirk rank in terms of scoring ability? He's gotta be at least top 10 right?


Probably.

The guy has been pounding it so hard for so long. Look at his stats since 00-01: mid 20's year after year. Aside from Kobe, he's the best/most consistent scorer of his generation.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/20622/dirk-nowitzki

BRushWithDeath
03-05-2011, 01:39 PM
From interviews, coach V and McCarty sound like they bring in a mature mindset for the younger guys.

Mind blown.

TheDon
03-05-2011, 01:43 PM
Send lance to Magic. Hibbert to Walton. Collison to Mark Jackson. PG24 to Reggie and Danny to Scottie Pippen.

I think the only change I would make to this is i'd rather see Darren go learn some defense from "the glove".

Naptown_Seth
03-05-2011, 01:49 PM
Overall, I don't agree with that...but I do believe that (at least for now) the Pacers seem to go as Tyler goes. When Tyler is on his game, hitting his mid-range shot, and being too physical for the other team, the Pacers are a tough team for almost anyone...but when we get bad Tyler (the one who can't hit a shot and plays out of control) the Pacers are not very good.

Of course this can change and will change with improvement from the other young players.
But this is probably true for Roy and Danny too. On nights when either of them are really crushing and effective the team seems to roll. Roy's been off for several games and it shows.

mattie
03-05-2011, 01:50 PM
Roy is back to struggling and Collison literally never stays in front of anyone. All the inside scoring comes from Josh or Roy rotating to save the day.

Lance did have a much improved PG game.

Terry vs George was a schooling.

Why no Josh in the 4th? He was having a great game, both scoring and passing.

Foster was helpful. Tyler was and then quickly became a mess. As I always say, he has no real offense except off balance one-handed throws toward the rim.


And Danny....sheesh, Team USA burnout? I hope that's all it is.

What did Danny do wrong?

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 01:52 PM
What did Danny do wrong?

If you just watch him he looks like he doesnt try. It is sad to see but if he isnt getting the ball he isnt trying. I dont know why

mattie
03-05-2011, 01:59 PM
If you just watch him he looks like he doesnt try. It is sad to see but if he isnt getting the ball he isnt trying. I dont know why

"He looks like he doesn't try" is simply arbitrary reasoning excusing your use of Danny as a target to place the blame. Are you upset they're losing? It's because the team isn't very good. It's not Danny's fault. Stop telling yourself that over and over because no matter how hard you try to convince yourself, it doesn't make it anymore true.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 02:01 PM
"He looks like he doesn't try" is simply arbitrary reasoning excusing your use of Danny as a target to place the blame. Are you upset they're losing? It's because the team isn't very good. It's not Danny's fault. Stop telling yourself that over and over because no matter how hard you try to convince yourself, it doesn't make it anymore true.

Just Tvo the game and watch his actions when he is off the ball it isnt a lie

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 02:10 PM
Tyler is considered to be a better scorer simply because Tyler actually *is* a scorer, and Josh, most of the time, is not a scorer at all. But Josh is clearly more efficient.

The only reason that Tyler is a better scorer, is the difference in mindsets. I agree, he is a better scorer, because he believes he is a scorer. Josh is content in his supporting role. Tyler would not be.

So we have a consensus that Tyler is the better scorer, but is he a better offensive player? I do not believe so.

Josh has averaged about 4 more minutes per game, not a huge a difference, but in the interest of full disclosure, I have not adjusted these stats to reflect that differential.

Tyler getting to the free throw line is the biggest aspect of his offensive game, and he does it well. Comparing Josh and Tyler by straight field goal percentage does not take this attribute into account. So as not to sell Tyler short, I'm going to use a different metric that does include it to compare them.

Josh averages 5.3 shots per game, and 1.4 points per shot, or 7.4 points per game.

Tyler averages 7.3 shots per game, and 1.2 points per shot, or 8.8 points per game.

There obviously isn't a huge difference there. Josh is more efficient, Tyler gets up more shots and thus scores more points. Essentially these numbers prove everything that has been said.

The difference comes when you look at the assist numbers of each. Tyler has 24 assists total on the year, or nearly 0.5 assists per game. Josh has 113, or more than 2.2 assists per game.

If you figure that each assist equals 2 points (it doesn't because some of them lead to threes) Josh accounts for 11.8 points per game. Tyler accounts for 9.8 points per game. Josh also has several passes per game that result in fouls or missed opportunities where assists are not registered, but probably should be.

So again, is Tyler the better offensive player, or does he just shoot more?

Eleazar
03-05-2011, 02:12 PM
"He looks like he doesn't try" is simply arbitrary reasoning excusing your use of Danny as a target to place the blame. Are you upset they're losing? It's because the team isn't very good. It's not Danny's fault. Stop telling yourself that over and over because no matter how hard you try to convince yourself, it doesn't make it anymore true.

Danny is part of the team isn't he. So if the team isn't very good then Danny deserves some blame, and if Danny is supposed to be the best player and leader Danny deserves even more of the blame for not performing up to par.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 02:18 PM
I see Roy having another huge offseason and building on what he did last offseason. I see him adding more pounds of muscle.

I think Lance has seeked help from Clark during the season and it looks like it's helped him as a person.

imawhat
03-05-2011, 02:30 PM
Roy is back to struggling and Collison literally never stays in front of anyone. All the inside scoring comes from Josh or Roy rotating to save the day.

This should be reposted in bold every time someone says Josh's interior defense is bad. Hibbert is inconsistent but has good defensive games as well. But almost all of our interior defensive breakdowns have come from Collison and Danny not guarding their men.

NapTonius Monk
03-05-2011, 02:40 PM
ot: manu ginobili is a hall of fame level talent. hopefully he doesn't get the reggie miller treatment where people want to look solely at stats to justify his case for or against instead of watching the talent on the floor.
No chance, because Manu has a championship resume'.

imawhat
03-05-2011, 02:46 PM
What did Danny do wrong?

Danny is the leader of this team. When your leader isn't trying on defense, it affects the entire team's mindset.

We've seen Danny play defense at a near all-defensive team level, which means he has the ability. That leaves his defensive play entirely up to his effort, which he doesn't bring.

Danny did not try on defense last night until about halfway through the 4th quarter. When he started trying, the rest of the team started playing good defense with him. But in general, last night was one of the worst defensive efforts I've ever seen from Danny. We would've won if he'd tried for half the game.

NapTonius Monk
03-05-2011, 02:56 PM
a floater like Reggie's
Side note: Boy do I miss Reggie's floater. That thing was a thing of beauty. Didn't see much of it later in his career, but when he used it, absolute money!

NapTonius Monk
03-05-2011, 03:00 PM
If Paul George and Lance Stephenson reach their potentials, that would be a beautiful thing to behold.

NapTonius Monk
03-05-2011, 03:02 PM
Rick Bucher annoys me. May not be relevant to this thread, but it's always a good time to say it.

Peck
03-05-2011, 03:03 PM
If Paul George and Lance Stephenson reach their potentials, that would be a beautiful thing to behold.

I made the bold statement during the game to Diamond Dave that in three years I could see Lance & Paul being the best backcourt in the NBA.

Ozwalt72
03-05-2011, 03:13 PM
I think Josh has more scoring potential than he's realized at this point. Last night he showed some skill and even an actual post move, that while not looking completely smooth...appears to be something he can maybe replicate.

Tyler...his ability to draw fouls is going to help this team so much in the future.

I think Price is horrible in his current role. Not because he's a bad player...but because of who he is playing with. He....disappears unless he's actually hitting his shots. If he were playing with some better ball movement you'd probably see more out of him.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 03:15 PM
What happens when defenses figure out that he isn't even trying to make the shot and stop fouling? Will he stop throwing up garbage shots? I doubt it.

The defense has the book on Tyler. His shots are just butt ugly, but he can make them. He needs to make more of them.

I'm not claiming some of those shots have no chance, but a lot more of them do than you're apparently willing to see or admit.

But back to defenses figuring him out, they already have.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 03:16 PM
Whether you think his standards are ridiculous or not I'm sure you agree with the fact that Tyler needs to be more selective when it comes to shooting (and actually select to pass once in a while), right? I think that was his main point.

Tyler does need to be more selective, but the exaggerations about his game are ridiculous.

Jon Theodore
03-05-2011, 03:19 PM
I made the bold statement during the game to Diamond Dave that in three years I could see Lance & Paul being the best backcourt in the NBA.

WOW if any other posted said this they would be crucified...however I happen to agree with you. Especially Lance...I almost think Lance has a higher ceiling than George.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 03:21 PM
It depends on what your definition of a PG is.

You call a PG a guy who .... Gets stuck and makes a pass for a bail out shot

You're putting words in my mouth, and I disagree with you. Those passes are not 'Lance was stuck and got bailed out' passes. Those were some great passes.

Ozwalt72
03-05-2011, 03:32 PM
You're putting words in my mouth, and I disagree with you. Those passes are not 'Lance was stuck and got bailed out' passes. Those were some great passes.

They were the result of driving with a purpose. Driving with a sense of what your teammates are doing around you and reacting to what the defense does. It was fairly impressive.

Hicks
03-05-2011, 03:35 PM
I made the bold statement during the game to Diamond Dave that in three years I could see Lance & Paul being the best backcourt in the NBA.

Uh oh. Now I'm left thinking of your (in?)famous statement about Jonathan Bender revolutionizing the power forward position. :uhoh:

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 03:38 PM
Tyler does need to be more selective, but the exaggerations about his game are ridiculous.

What exaggerations?

Sookie
03-05-2011, 03:51 PM
You're putting words in my mouth, and I disagree with you. Those passes are not 'Lance was stuck and got bailed out' passes. Those were some great passes.

I didn't say they weren't. That's putting words in my mouth. In fact I said he played well, but that there was a difference between what Lance was doing and running an offense.

He drove tot he basket, and what was different this game from the last two, was that instead of putting up a bad shot and missing a bunny, he passed it out to Tyler, who was hot. Great passes. They were. But making his teammates better, he was not. And running an offense, he was not.

That type of PG play can work for a few minutes, but it won't work throughout an entire game.

MarvelousMarvin
03-05-2011, 04:07 PM
I didn't say they weren't. That's putting words in my mouth. In fact I said he played well, but that there was a difference between what Lance was doing and running an offense.

He drove tot he basket, and what was different this game from the last two, was that instead of putting up a bad shot and missing a bunny, he passed it out to Tyler, who was hot. Great passes. They were. But making his teammates better, he was not. And running an offense, he was not.

That type of PG play can work for a few minutes, but it won't work throughout an entire game.

Tyler played very well, got wide open shots, and scored a lot in the first half when Lance was in with him. When Lance came out and AJ/DC game in he was shooting contested shots and his shooting was something like 1/8 in the 2nd half or something like that. Lance made his teammates better without a doubt.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Rick Bucher annoys me. May not be relevant to this thread, but it's always a good time to say it.

I like him on draft night because you know he has a trade to announce when they show him.

Sookie
03-05-2011, 04:46 PM
Tyler played very well, got wide open shots, and scored a lot in the first half when Lance was in with him. When Lance came out and AJ/DC game in he was shooting contested shots and his shooting was something like 1/8 in the 2nd half or something like that. Lance made his teammates better without a doubt.

No, he was missing the same shots. A decently open free throw line shot.

In fact, he had started to get cold before Stephenson came out. And just stayed cold the rest of the night.

That's actually a pattern with Tyler.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 05:02 PM
I didn't say they weren't. That's putting words in my mouth. In fact I said he played well, but that there was a difference between what Lance was doing and running an offense.

He drove tot he basket, and what was different this game from the last two, was that instead of putting up a bad shot and missing a bunny, he passed it out to Tyler, who was hot. Great passes. They were. But making his teammates better, he was not. And running an offense, he was not.

That type of PG play can work for a few minutes, but it won't work throughout an entire game.

I just call this :bs: when he was in he was running the offense much better

than AJ. He was making everyone better and was showing leader ship

qualites. He would come off a PnR from Tyler and make the right play almost

every time. He hit his teammates in the numbers and was helping them get

easy shots. On one PnR with Tyler he knew Tyler would be open and made a

perfect bullet pass and Tyler made the shot. AJ on the other hand comes off

the PnR from Tyler and doesnt have the sepration to find the open man like Lance. Half

the time he doesnt even use the pick Tyler sets. Most of what Vogel calls for

the 2nd unit is PnR and Lance is a playmaker and runs the offense very well.

He just makes the right basketball play. Watch imawhat's breakdown on

Lances pg play. In SL he was running a full offense very very well. Once

Vogel calls more sets for the 2nd unit with Lance in Im sure we will even see

Lance be a different type of pg than we have seen here in awhile. A big

smashmouth type pg I just hope we countuine devloping his game. He can

run the offense really well. He may have to defend the other teams SG but I

belive he will be an effictive PG offensivly and an effictive SG defensivly.

Bottomline is he is a baketball player he will be effictive at 3 postions and will

be a great playmaker at all 3 he is one of the only playmakers on the team.

He is up there with Josh as the best passer on the team. A passer and good

decsion maker is what we have been lacking in Collinson. You can hate him

off the court all you want but you have to respect what he can and will bring

to this team moving forward.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 05:09 PM
Lance is a very unique kind of player. He comes in and gets right to work and is a fearless PG going right in towards the hoop to draw opposing players towards him and he knows what to do right away with the ball.

I like DC's game and want him to remain here because he's only in his second year and has a lot of potential still, but Lance is gonna give him a battle to be the PG.

I don't have an issue with the 2 of them playing at the same time, but Lance does more at the point.

BlueNGold
03-05-2011, 05:11 PM
I didn't say they weren't. That's putting words in my mouth. In fact I said he played well, but that there was a difference between what Lance was doing and running an offense.

He drove tot he basket, and what was different this game from the last two, was that instead of putting up a bad shot and missing a bunny, he passed it out to Tyler, who was hot. Great passes. They were. But making his teammates better, he was not. And running an offense, he was not.

That type of PG play can work for a few minutes, but it won't work throughout an entire game.

I was a huge Lance detractor but he's beginning to prove himself on the basketball court. That said, P4E is correct. The part in bold is false. Lance is able to break down a defense and dish. He gets by his man, gets in the paint, compromises the defense...and makes a brilliant pass. BTW, his passing is clearly no fluke. He has skills our other PG's could only dream of having.

Bottom line is, I think Mark Boyle had it right. Lance and Paul George are the two most talented basketball players on the team. ...and this is coming from a "Lance hater".

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 05:14 PM
I agree with that statement.

Lance is a very unique kind of player. He comes in and gets right to work and is a fearless PG going right in towards the hoop to draw opposing players towards him and he knows what to do right away with the ball.

I like DC's game and want him to remain here because he's only in his second year and has a lot of potential still, but Lance is gonna give him a battle to be the PG.

I don't have an issue with the 2 of them playing at the same time, but Lance does more at the point.

Thats the lineup I would like to see more of DC at SG and Lance at pg. Because Dc is like Dunleavy he moves very well without the ball. Last night Lance found DC for an easy layup DC made the great cut and Lance made a good pass right where it needed to be. I just dont think you can use that lineup for long peiods of time for defensive purposes. But that lineup is a very good offensive lineup.

pacer4ever
03-05-2011, 05:18 PM
I was a huge Lance detractor but he's beginning to prove himself on the basketball court. That said, P4E is correct. The part in bold is false. Lance is able to break down a defense and dish. He gets by his man, gets in the paint, compromises the defense...and makes a brilliant pass. BTW, his passing is clearly no fluke. He has skills our other PG's could only dream of having.

Bottom line is, I think Mark Boyle had it right. Lance and Paul George are the two most talented basketball players on the team. ...and this is coming from a "Lance hater".

Ya MJB wasnt joking thoes two have tons of talent. With that being said they are gonna have to work thier tails off to fullfill that talent. If they both do work thier tails off and fullfill thier talents. This team will be a very fun team to watch in the next few years.

Trophy
03-05-2011, 05:25 PM
I'd also like to mention that Lance seems like he's turned into a better person.

The recent interview between he and Stacy was better than any interview over the summer.

He was well spoken and had a lot to say.

So with him continuing to mature and become a better player, he's going to be great for this team and the city.

kester99
03-05-2011, 06:08 PM
He drove tot he basket, and what was different this game from the last two, was that instead of putting up a bad shot and missing a bunny, he passed it out to Tyler, who was hot. Great passes. They were. But making his teammates better, he was not. And running an offense, he was not.
.

I just rewatched the game from Lance's entry at 2:59 of the first qtr.

On the first play he was in, he passed to Danny at the 3 pt line after moving away from him to draw the defenders. Danny was fouled...free throws.

Second play, a pick and roll with Tyler, with Tyler finishing after a crisp pass from Lance.

Third play, a pick and pop off a Tyler screen...Lance hits the long two.

4th play, a pick and roll with Jeff scoring a dunk off a pass from Lance.

5th play, Lance takes an open 3 pt shot and misses, but still Pacers ball. Lance gets the ball after the inbound, drives the basket off a Tyler screen and whips a pass back to him....Tyler 2 pt jumper.

6th play, now in the 2nd quarter, good 2 point jumper by George on the break....Lance never got the ball.

7th play, Lance drives quickly to the low right wing, turns and kicks back to George for a good open 3 ptr. This was obviously his intention, not a lucky escape pass.

At this point it's seven trips and seven scores with Lance at point for the Pacers. The Mavs are also scoring pretty much at will, but none of the scores are from Lance's man Barea.

8th trip...Lance misses wide open long 2 ptr, Foster rebounds and passes back to Lance. He drives the baseline and kicks out to Tyler for a good 15-ft jumper. I rewatched this a couple of times. He meant to draw defenders and pass, my opinion.

9th trip, Lance drops a behind the back pass to a wide open Tyler...but surprises Tyler, who misses the shot he's not prepared for...still Pacers ball...Lance runs a screen and roll with Tyler missing the lay up.

10th trip, Lance passes ahead to a breaking Foster, who drops it off to Dahntay for a good 4-ft jumper. Denari: 'What a pass!'

Dallas time-out. Pacers have gone from 3 down to 3 up. They scored on all but one of ten possesions. AJ comes in after the time-out.

I know Lance came back in later, but I'm not going to hunt those minutes down and recap. (I think he came back in as SG anyway, later?) Suffice it to say, Lance's PG play for those 5 minutes was not flukey, selfish, or lucky. He knew what he wanted to do and he did it. He made the Pacers click while he was at the point during that period.

speakout4
03-05-2011, 06:45 PM
The Lance, DC, AJ experiment is ongoing and will be for some time. I have no problem seeing all three play this season and next with each of these getting minutes at SG too. No need to declare DC or AJ busts; they all have usable talents.

ziplockfresh
03-05-2011, 09:18 PM
I didn't say they weren't. That's putting words in my mouth. In fact I said he played well, but that there was a difference between what Lance was doing and running an offense.

He drove tot he basket, and what was different this game from the last two, was that instead of putting up a bad shot and missing a bunny, he passed it out to Tyler, who was hot. Great passes. They were. But making his teammates better, he was not. And running an offense, he was not.

That type of PG play can work for a few minutes, but it won't work throughout an entire game.


I've come to a conclusion that you think Lance should have been found guilty and waived accordingly. You're reaching. Lance can make his team better. At points, so can other Pacers..But stop trying to deny it.