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View Full Version : Pacers fail againts OKC postgame



vnzla81
03-02-2011, 11:35 PM
Pacers fail







http://www.readthesmiths.com/articles/Images/Humor/Fail/fail.jpg












http://www.admavericks.com/wp-content/uploads/fail28.jpg

huber14
03-02-2011, 11:37 PM
fail

just like this thread

n/m

imbtyler
03-02-2011, 11:37 PM
If OJ Mayo hadn't have been getting traded for McRoberts, I'd be *****ing about Larry Bird or something right about now.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 11:38 PM
Yes. This was a fail. :laugh:

Getting worried about DC and Roy. Just going to leave it at that.

Oh yeah, and I don't think Josh and Rush should be starting. It bit us in the butt today.

Professor S
03-02-2011, 11:39 PM
Lone bright spot: Lance continues to impress with more minutes. As he develops, he could be a significant contributor come playoff time.

McKeyFan
03-02-2011, 11:40 PM
What has happened to Collison?

15th parallel
03-02-2011, 11:41 PM
Anybody still thinks Lance can't become a PG?

BornReady
03-02-2011, 11:41 PM
well, glad that ones over. onto the next game!

Sookie
03-02-2011, 11:42 PM
This was terrible.

First, chemistry is all screwed up. I don't know how to fix it. Other than, first off, I think 11 players is too many.

I say sit down BRush. I like Brandon, but he's just hurting us out there. His defense hasn't even been that great. The team has made it pretty clear he's not a part of the future. So sit him down. Start Paul.

I'd also consider starting AJ ahead of DC. DC's offense has been bad, and his defense is terrible. I like DC, I've been against making this switch, but we need some intensity and energy to start the game. And I think it needs to come from our lead guard spot.

Then there's the fact that AJ actually gets the ball into the post. If he can manage to make sure the ball gets to Hans somehow on almost every possession, he can do that with Roy, which is much more important.

Maybe the change would wake DC up. And we aren't letting the goon squad play together anyway, so might as well have some of them be starters.

presto123
03-02-2011, 11:43 PM
Collison????????????????????????? When did he become the most selfish PG in the NBA? And will somebody tell him to quit driving the lane without dishing so he can get his shot blocked. He must have had a dozen of his shots blocked in the last couple games.

Will Galen
03-02-2011, 11:44 PM
Schedule loss. Starters shot under .250.

Sookie
03-02-2011, 11:44 PM
Anybody still thinks Lance can't become a PG?

yup.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 11:44 PM
DC got blocked three times.

vnzla81
03-02-2011, 11:44 PM
Lance was the best point guard today and was not even close, I know that must of his minutes were in garbage time but damn this guy has nice handles and court vision, I would also say that his defense is better than DC's.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 11:45 PM
yup.

Not trying to be mean, but out of curiosity, why?

BRushWithDeath
03-02-2011, 11:45 PM
Oh yeah, and I don't think Josh and Rush should be starting. It bit us in the butt today.

Josh was the best starter of the bunch. By a wide margin. And he didn't do much due to fouls which kept him out the whole first half.

Rush may have been 2nd best starter because at least he looked like he occasionally wanted to defend.

I don't think that is what bit us in the ***.

But I fully endorse starting Paul.

presto123
03-02-2011, 11:46 PM
DC got blocked three times.


Yeah.. look at my post above:censored:

Heisenberg
03-02-2011, 11:46 PM
Trying to place blame on one or two guys is pretty futile in this one. The entire squad played like crap when it mattered.

itzryan07
03-02-2011, 11:47 PM
i love watching Lance play. But i don't know where he fits. Price plays well as the back up point. Bench Rush, start PG, and Lance at backup

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 11:48 PM
Trying to place blame on one or two guys is pretty futile in this one. The entire squad played like crap when it mattered.

Definitely true, but we were playing 2 on 5 in the first quarter with DC struggling and Rush and Josh being invisible. I'm not placing all of the blame on them, but we just lack talent.

the jaddler
03-02-2011, 11:49 PM
Lance was a good brightspot!!! OKC just a little too strong for us tonight! Liked the play by Price when he did get in the game! Also liked the hustle of Tyler most of the night! We picked up in the 4th pretty good! I just think we learn and move. Time to try a differnt combo on the floor. Time to try a new starting lineup!

15th parallel
03-02-2011, 11:49 PM
yup.

I know you'll say that :laugh:

But we got to admit, he has shown flashes of his passing, dribbling, penetrating and defending abilities. In this game, he clearly topped out DC and AJ.

Gold
03-02-2011, 11:50 PM
With all the circumstances this game was played under, I was mostly just hoping we wouldn't get blown out this game... Whatever though.I just hope the team isn't demoralized or anything by this loss.

pacer4ever
03-02-2011, 11:51 PM
Lance was the best point guard today and was not even close, I know that must of his minutes were in garbage time but damn this guy has nice handles and court vision, I would also say that his defense is better than DC's.

ur defense is proably better than DC's

doctor-h
03-02-2011, 11:52 PM
There is not going to be a playoffs for the Pacers.

BRushWithDeath
03-02-2011, 11:53 PM
Definitely true, but we were playing 2 on 5 in the first quarter with DC struggling and Rush and Josh being invisible. I'm not placing all of the blame on them, but we just lack talent.

Josh played three minutes in the first. He came out when the score was 6-0.

Rush came out when the score was 19-7.

You are placing the blame in the wrong spot.

15th parallel
03-02-2011, 11:53 PM
The problem in this game is the streaky shooting of our starters. Add to the fact that the bench continued the way the starters started, so in effect the lead just got so bloated.

It is essential for the starting lineup to score or at least keep up with the opponent. PG should be in there and Lance (1st) or Rush (2nd) should back him up.

presto123
03-02-2011, 11:53 PM
How is Vogel going to get this team playing defense? That can keep you in games even when your offense is struggling. A lot of our guys look like they could care less on defense.

imbtyler
03-02-2011, 11:55 PM
We got blocked out of this game. And we had nothing against them. I can't wait until we have a back-up center who will jump for and grab rebounds, not tap-throw them to the three-point line. And also, who will dunk uncontested, rather than throwing the ball to the glass out of fear of Iblocka.

It's time to retire, Jeff.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 11:57 PM
Josh played three minutes in the first. He came out when the score was 6-0.

Rush came out when the score was 19-7.

You are placing the blame in the wrong spot.

We. Lack. Talent.

How can I make this any more clear?

pacer4ever
03-02-2011, 11:57 PM
Larry Bird is proablly :banghead: he almost got us OJ Mayo for Josh Mcroberts :laugh: DAMM that would have been as good as the DC trade.

BRushWithDeath
03-02-2011, 11:57 PM
What has happened to Collison?

He is who he is.

He has had the same issues all season. They have just been amplified recently.

Sookie
03-02-2011, 11:58 PM
Not trying to be mean, but out of curiosity, why?

I said I'm not going into it anymore. But I'll say this. His mentality wasn't any different than DC's. He couldn't guard Maynor to save his life, (Maynor can't finish to save his life..) and his handle isn't good enough. He's a nice passer off the PnR, but I doubt he could run an entire offense. And, he should be trying to score every time he gets the ball (like he has been), the PG spot would just hinder him there.

And that last bit, is the biggest bit, Lance is a scorer. He should be trying to score every time he gets the ball, and we can trust him with that, because unlike Dahntay, if Lance gets stuck (double team, for example) he will actually pass it out.

He's a shinny new toy so everyone is exaggerating the good and ignoring the bad. It's nothing new, fans have a tendency to do this..and then turn on them. (See Darren for a prime example)

So as I said, I've said my piece on this. And I'm not going to talk about it anymore. As I said previously, people have dug their heels in. And we'll all just have to wait and see.

Is he anymore of a PG than DC is right now. I guess we can question that. But I'd say DC's got a lot better of a chance of becoming one. For a variety of reasons.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 11:58 PM
How is Vogel going to get this team playing defense? That can keep you in games even when your offense is struggling. A lot of our guys look like they could care less on defense.

This worries me too presto. It's not just our man to man defense either.. Our team and help defense has been bad.

Trophy
03-02-2011, 11:58 PM
Everyone flat out sucked tonight.

It's a team game and no one was playing like a unit tonight.

These players need a spark of energy to wake up.

Gold
03-02-2011, 11:58 PM
*insert irrational negativity here*


fixed.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:00 AM
We. Lack. Talent.

How can I make this any more clear?

The problem is not the lack of talent of our "bad" starters.

The problem is the lack of talent of our "good" starters.

BringJackBack
03-03-2011, 12:00 AM
I said I'm not going into it anymore. But I'll say this. His mentality wasn't any different than DC's. He couldn't guard Maynor to save his life, (Maynor can't finish to save his life..) and his handle isn't good enough. He's a nice passer off the PnR, but I doubt he could run an entire offense. And, he should be trying to score every time he gets the ball (like he has been), the PG spot would just hinder him there.

And that last bit, is the biggest bit, Lance is a scorer. He should be trying to score every time he gets the ball, and we can trust him with that, because unlike Dahntay, if Lance gets stuck (double team, for example) he will actually pass it out.

He's a shinny new toy so everyone is exaggerating the good and ignoring the bad. It's nothing new, fans have a tendency to do this..and then turn on them. (See Darren for a prime example)

So as I said, I've said my piece on this. And I'm not going to talk about it anymore. As I said previously, people have dug their heels in. And we'll all just have to wait and see.

Is he anymore of a PG than DC is right now. I guess we can question that. But I'd say DC's got a lot better of a chance of becoming one. For a variety of reasons.

I'm sorry if I made you mad.. Before I just wouldn't ever read the Lance stuff because I felt like he was never really going to play for us.

Sookie
03-03-2011, 12:00 AM
I know you'll say that :laugh:

But we got to admit, he has shown flashes of his passing, dribbling, penetrating and defending abilities. In this game, he clearly topped out DC and AJ.

Look, Josh was a better PG than DC was today.

AJ came in the game down 20, and pretty much knew it was over. He tried to make a little run in the second, with scoring and trying to set up Danny, but the team lacked the energy. How many giant holes are we going to ask him to claw us out of?

Sookie
03-03-2011, 12:02 AM
I'm sorry if I made you mad.. Before I just wouldn't ever read the Lance stuff because I felt like he was never really going to play for us.

Not mad, it's just the argument has been going on since he was drafted. :laugh:

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 12:02 AM
The problem is not the lack of talent of our "bad" starters.

The problem is the lack of talent of our "good" starters.

no the problem is all of em not just the good ones that makkes 0 sense. J-mac wouldnt get off the bench in most places just sayin. If he did he would be a 10mpg role player

itzryan07
03-03-2011, 12:03 AM
we faced a team that is better bottom line

imbtyler
03-03-2011, 12:03 AM
Maybe Vogel should just start Lance at the 2 and PG at the 3 against Dallas on Friday.

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 12:04 AM
Not mad, it's just the argument has been going on since he was drafted. :laugh:

You are just afraid of him taking playing time from your guy AJ I understand :-p

xBulletproof
03-03-2011, 12:05 AM
Just moved and have no Internet/TV. Came to the girlfriends house to watch the game. Should have just had us both stay at my place and unpack some more. About sums this one up.

BlueNGold
03-03-2011, 12:06 AM
The Thunder are a difficult match-up for us, but the main lesson learned is that they were hungry and are very good. The talent level and athleticism are off the charts. They are very long and defensive minded team as well...that has real potential to make noise in the playoffs.

A team that good and extremely hungry for a win...on their home court...is a very difficult challenge for an average NBA team.

ColeTheMole
03-03-2011, 12:06 AM
Everyone needs to take a step back on Lance. I want him to succeed as much as the next guy, but come on. He is playing great for his third game ever. No doubt about that. But he gets plain blown by on multiple defensive possesions. He is going to be a great kid. But lets look at him realistically and not refuse to see every bad thing he does.

Sookie
03-03-2011, 12:07 AM
You are just afraid of him taking playing time from your guy AJ I understand :-p

Nah, to be honest, I don't expect Price to stay a Pacer much past his first contract. He's good enough to be a starter, and he's quite clearly not going to get that opportunity here. If he stays healthy and has the backup spot next season, some teams will notice.

Unfortunately Miami is way too much of a perfect fit. I may have to disown him for that, though. :laugh:

imbtyler
03-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Just moved and have no Internet/TV. Came to the girlfriends house to watch the game. Should have just had us both stay at my place and unpack some more. About sums this one up.

I'm similarly afflicted: no electricity at my apartment at all. So I've been sitting up here at the library at school watching the game. In other words, I feel like I've wasted a portion of my evening as well. At least the Clippers are on now.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Not mad, it's just the argument has been going on since he was drafted. :laugh:

Im probally Lances biggest fan and supporter I will say he is a SG. But he will be able to bring the ball up some like Tyreke does and run the pg offensivly if needed. The problem is like you said his PnR defense. If he is gonna play 35mpg his PnR defense would be horrible. He will have a much easier job guarding SG's. However he can play pg vs bad point guards for the time being just to get his work in. If he is gonna be a pg/sg off the bench that is fine but no way we should ever put him on good pg's like Westbrook ect. for long periods of time.

Trophy
03-03-2011, 12:09 AM
no the problem is all of em not just the good ones that makkes 0 sense. J-mac wouldnt get off the bench in most places just sayin. If he did he would be a 10mpg role player

If Josh was traded to Memphis, by now he'd probably be getting limited minutes behind Randolph and Arthur.

That near deal really threw him off like you said before.

Bird really has to do some evaluating in this offseason and add to what looks to be our core moving forward. DC/Paul/Danny/Tyler/Roy/Lance/AJ.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 12:11 AM
If Josh was traded to Memphis, by now he'd probably be getting limited minutes behind Randolph and Arthur.

That near deal really threw him off like you said before.

Bird really has to do some evaluating in this offseason and add to what looks to be our core moving forward. DC/Paul/Danny/Tyler/Roy/Lance/AJ.

to be honest he wouldnt of got off the bench in Memphis unless they wanted to try him at center.

PacersFan1991
03-03-2011, 12:14 AM
The Pacers are always frustrating to watch when they play like that on TV.

But in person? UGH pure torture....I had my head in my hands half the game...

Good seeing a few Pacers fans there, Gnome included!

Sookie
03-03-2011, 12:27 AM
Hey, here's the actual bright spot...

Charlotte lost by more than we did. :laugh:

Trophy
03-03-2011, 12:29 AM
Hey, here's the actual bright spot...

Charlotte lost by more than we did. :laugh:

Matt Carroll was their top scorer. :laugh:

The Bobcats got so bad after trading Wallace.

They're back to their original selves from their beginning years.

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 12:35 AM
Hey, here's the actual bright spot...

Charlotte lost by more than we did. :laugh:

NO was bad too and they have Dwest,CP3 and Okafor.

Jared Sullinger
03-03-2011, 12:49 AM
Charlotte's had six lottery picks, five top-10 picks and three top-five picks. What do they have to show for it? D.J. Augustin and Dahntay Jones v0.7 aka Gerald Henderson. Ouch.

Their best pick, Okafor, was dealt for Tyson Chandler, who was then traded for Matt Carroll, Erick Dampier and Eduardo Najera a year later. Ouch.

Their second best pick, Raymond Felton, they let walk to an Eastern Conference competitor for a good contract. Ouch.

They gave Jared Dudley away with Jason Richardson in order to pickup Raja Bell, Fatty Diaw and future Euroleague third stringer, Sean Singletary. Ouch.

They gave us one of he all-time biggest busts in NBA history in Adam Morrison. Ouch.

They just gave away their best player, Gerald Wallace for a couple of so-so 1sts, that they'll probably blow. Ouch.

Just a horribly ran franchise.

PacersFan1991
03-03-2011, 12:55 AM
It makes me laugh that Morrison even played in the NBA.

imbtyler
03-03-2011, 12:57 AM
Charlotte's had six lottery picks, five top-10 picks and three top-five picks. What do they have to show for it? D.J. Augustin and Dahntay Jones v0.7 aka Gerald Henderson. Ouch.

Their best pick, Okafor, was dealt for Tyson Chandler, who was then traded for Matt Carroll, Erick Dampier and Eduardo Najera a year later. Ouch.

Their second best pick, Raymond Felton, they let walk to an Eastern Conference competitor for a contract. Ouch.

They gave Jared Dudley away with Jason Richardson in order to pickup Raja Bell, Fatty Diaw and future Euroleague third stringer, Sean Singletary. Ouch.

They gave us one of he all-time biggest busts in NBA history in Adam Morrison. Ouch.

They just gave away their best player, Gerald Wallace for a couple of so-so 1sts, that they'll probably blow. Ouch.

Just a horribly ran franchise.

Yeh, and we traded the pick that could have had Michael Jordan for this guy:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/278/897/OwensProfile_display_image.jpg?1277910307


Mmmmm victory.

15th parallel
03-03-2011, 01:01 AM
Look, Josh was a better PG than DC was today.

AJ came in the game down 20, and pretty much knew it was over. He tried to make a little run in the second, with scoring and trying to set up Danny, but the team lacked the energy. How many giant holes are we going to ask him to claw us out of?

I'm not saying that Lance is a better PG than Darren or AJ. What I want to say is that regardless of how good/bad he is, Lance can definitely become a PG, and like I've said he has shown flashes of his skillset as a PG. If he can play 2 positions, that will be good for us, right?

15th parallel
03-03-2011, 01:02 AM
Hey, here's the actual bright spot...

Charlotte lost by more than we did. :laugh:

At least we're still holding on to the lead for the 8th spot... ;)

imbtyler
03-03-2011, 01:04 AM
I'm not saying that Lance is a better PG than Darren or AJ. What I want to say is that regardless of how good/bad he is, Lance can definitely become a PG, and like I've said he has shown flashes of his skillset as a PG. If he can play 2 positions, that will be good for us, right?

It's not impossible, nor unheard of, for a player to be a combo guard. He's still a scorer more than a passer, though, so I'd have him at the PG spot just to execute/score quickly after inbounds.

15th parallel
03-03-2011, 01:05 AM
Charlotte's had six lottery picks, five top-10 picks and three top-five picks. What do they have to show for it? D.J. Augustin and Dahntay Jones v0.7 aka Gerald Henderson. Ouch.

Their best pick, Okafor, was dealt for Tyson Chandler, who was then traded for Matt Carroll, Erick Dampier and Eduardo Najera a year later. Ouch.

Their second best pick, Raymond Felton, they let walk to an Eastern Conference competitor for a contract. Ouch.

They gave Jared Dudley away with Jason Richardson in order to pickup Raja Bell, Fatty Diaw and future Euroleague third stringer, Sean Singletary. Ouch.

They gave us one of he all-time biggest busts in NBA history in Adam Morrison. Ouch.

They just gave away their best player, Gerald Wallace for a couple of so-so 1sts, that they'll probably blow. Ouch.

Just a horribly ran franchise.

The Bobcats are pitiful right now. They were given all the chances to become great, with all those lottery picks and having a quality coach in Larry Brown. I agree, they are just one of those teams that are poorly managed.

smj887
03-03-2011, 01:06 AM
On the topic of Lance - spoke with Denari after yesterday's game, and he had a pretty good point that there doesn't really HAVE to be a huge distinction on whether he's a PG or SG. As long as the offense can flow with him in the game, I don't really see what the problem is either. He can bring the ball up court, has good handles, has a quick first step, and seems to have pretty good court vision. Outside of maybe having trouble defending smaller point guards, what's so un-point guard about him? Beyond matchups, obviously, because if you want to say Lance would get killed by smaller, quicker points and that's why he isn't a PG, then you have to say the same thing about DC when certain point guards dominate him. Just my two cents on the subject. We'll find out more about how he fits into the game as time goes on, for now I'm just glad we've got a guy on the team who can get to the rim with ease but understands the need to pass in some instances. He should develop into a solid bench player at worst, unless he F's up.

On the topic of the rest of the team - they sucked.

Heisenberg
03-03-2011, 01:15 AM
Yeh, and we traded the pick that could have had Michael Jordan for this guy:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/278/897/OwensProfile_display_image.jpg?1277910307


Mmmmm victory.
When Michael Jordan was in high school

Peck
03-03-2011, 01:25 AM
Yeh, and we traded the pick that could have had Michael Jordan for this guy:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/278/897/OwensProfile_display_image.jpg?1277910307


Mmmmm victory.

Ah we would have just taken Sam Bowie anyway.

jcouts
03-03-2011, 01:46 AM
The three quarters of the game that I watched looked a bit like a junior varsity vs. varsity matchup from high school. It felt that lopsided.

The Lakers and Spurs better have their games fine tuned when the playoffs arrive. This OKC team is set up.

Hoop
03-03-2011, 01:47 AM
Lance has played a grand total of 38 minutes in his entire NBA career. Anyone that says they know what he can be and cannot be must be the greatest evaluator of talent that has ever lived.

It's simply amazing you people don't have jobs with NBA teams.

Naptown_Seth
03-03-2011, 02:04 AM
Yes. This was a fail. :laugh:

Getting worried about DC and Roy. Just going to leave it at that.

Oh yeah, and I don't think Josh and Rush should be starting. It bit us in the butt today.
What? I though Josh had the best overall game tonight. Rush and Paul just behind him. Josh and Rush each had one bad play, both missing on shots at the rim (ironically Rush missed the bunny after Josh through a great outlet pass to him behind the defense). Everyone was complaining about losing Dun's motion away from the ball but I saw Rush running around Rip style on many sets...just no one would get him the ball or work off his motion to get open themselves. I'm really sick of DC not finding guys when he needs to (both Rush and Roy several times tonight).

edit - let me add that Rush going 1-7 is not good, but the reason I'm not killing him other than the missed layup is that the other 5 misses were typically solid looks he earned with good motion or decent drives. You're missing shots but at least you are in the ballpark of playing a quality game on the night.


What bit the Pacers in terms of those guys was horrible PnR defense that got Josh into help defense foul trouble. He defended well on his own guy but when asked to come across the lane to stop a guy coming totally clean off the PnR...well that's not going to go well.

They also were totally overwhelmed by the length and athleticism of OKC. At each position guys were struggling to find space or clean looks.



OTOH, this was an EPIC disaster on the part of Roy and DC. They were both just dreadful, almost unwatchable in their ineptitude. It might have been Roy's worst game ever. He was indecisive on his post moves and often failed to pass out of doubles early when he needed to.

I love him, but yikes.



I'm not buying Lance either. He's got all these street moves that look fancy but he doesn't really do much with them. He'll jet to the lane and right into guys waiting on him, often forcing him to throw up a pretty weak layup of some sort.

He's raw so I'll give it a lot more time. But right now he's got all the markings of a guy that somehow looks flashier and more gifted than his actual applied game is. I think what you are seeing is what you already saw with Cincy.

The NBA has flash, but underneath that is a solid set of fundamental skills and choices that make the flash come easier. Lance's best play was the pass to Collison and that was all due to Collison making a nice cut.



I know you all love Tyler, but I'm tired of calling what he does "offense", apart from the long set jumpers. Most of his shots look like outright "throw the ball at the rim roughly and hope for foul" moves. There's no control or plan to them whatsoever.

I've admitted many times over that I underestimated his ability to draw fouls in the NBA game. But frankly without those FTAs he'd really be killing the team, hustle or otherwise. He desperately needs to develop some set of reliable inside moves to get repeatable, make-able shots. What good are FTAs when the refs swallow their whistles down the stretch of playoff games?


I also hated Tyler pulling a Troy and attempting to steal the rebound from Paul which resulted in it going out of bounds. I rewound and you can see that Paul is clearly in Tyler's vision and already getting to the ball before Tyler even lifts off the ground. He just bulled ahead on up and basically went over Paul's back to get the ball. WTF was that? Weird play, and IMO Paul and AJ didn't look that thrilled with Tyler afterward.




Oh well, at least Paul George seems to be finding his way back on track.

Naptown_Seth
03-03-2011, 02:13 AM
Lance has played a grand total of 38 minutes in his entire NBA career. Anyone that says they know what he can be and cannot be must be the greatest evaluator of talent that has ever lived.

It's simply amazing you people don't have jobs with NBA teams.
I agree. It is amazing that I don't have a job with an NBA team.

Maybe it's because I never applied for one??

Naptown_Seth
03-03-2011, 02:21 AM
Look, Josh was a better PG than DC was today.
5 assists and that doesn't even count these two plays...

Long outlet to Rush behind the defense, Rush misses the layup.

Nice feed to Tyler cutting in front of the rim, Tyler is instead fouled and misses the FG.

One should have created 2 points from your own basket almost and the other did create FT points. Neither goes in the book as an assist.


Josh kept several loose balls alive, one that went to the sideline which he saved and sent back to Roy which in turn became a bucket IIRC.

He had 1 steal and just missed another when he tipped the ball away in the post only to have one of the wings come flying in to grab the loose ball and drive by for a layup. Where was that guy's defender during this? WTF knows, which is typical.



Seriously, if you watched this game and thought "boy, Josh is killing us" then you do not understand the sport. For F's sake he was +3, the only Pacer in the plus in a 24 point defeat. Things weren't going wrong when he was on the court.

Roy having the ball taken from his hands for a 3-1 break the other way. DC or Danny throwing passes for easy steals and breaks the other way. Tyler going 4-16. That crap hurt a lot more than anything Josh did negative, which wasn't much.

paul_george24
03-03-2011, 02:34 AM
That game left me :eek: afterwards lets bounce back boys and go to work in Dallas.

presto123
03-03-2011, 02:34 AM
What? I though Josh had the best overall game tonight. Rush and Paul just behind him. Josh and Rush each had one bad play, both missing on shots at the rim (ironically Rush missed the bunny after Josh through a great outlet pass to him behind the defense). Everyone was complaining about losing Dun's motion away from the ball but I saw Rush running around Rip style on many sets...just no one would get him the ball or work off his motion to get open themselves. I'm really sick of DC not finding guys when he needs to (both Rush and Roy several times tonight).

edit - let me add that Rush going 1-7 is not good, but the reason I'm not killing him other than the missed layup is that the other 5 misses were typically solid looks he earned with good motion or decent drives. You're missing shots but at least you are in the ballpark of playing a quality game on the night.


What bit the Pacers in terms of those guys was horrible PnR defense that got Josh into help defense foul trouble. He defended well on his own guy but when asked to come across the lane to stop a guy coming totally clean off the PnR...well that's not going to go well.

They also were totally overwhelmed by the length and athleticism of OKC. At each position guys were struggling to find space or clean looks.



OTOH, this was an EPIC disaster on the part of Roy and DC. They were both just dreadful, almost unwatchable in their ineptitude. It might have been Roy's worst game ever. He was indecisive on his post moves and often failed to pass out of doubles early when he needed to.

I love him, but yikes.



I'm not buying Lance either. He's got all these street moves that look fancy but he doesn't really do much with them. He'll jet to the lane and right into guys waiting on him, often forcing him to throw up a pretty weak layup of some sort.

He's raw so I'll give it a lot more time. But right now he's got all the markings of a guy that somehow looks flashier and more gifted than his actual applied game is. I think what you are seeing is what you already saw with Cincy.

The NBA has flash, but underneath that is a solid set of fundamental skills and choices that make the flash come easier. Lance's best play was the pass to Collison and that was all due to Collison making a nice cut.



I know you all love Tyler, but I'm tired of calling what he does "offense", apart from the long set jumpers. Most of his shots look like outright "throw the ball at the rim roughly and hope for foul" moves. There's no control or plan to them whatsoever.

I've admitted many times over that I underestimated his ability to draw fouls in the NBA game. But frankly without those FTAs he'd really be killing the team, hustle or otherwise. He desperately needs to develop some set of reliable inside moves to get repeatable, make-able shots. What good are FTAs when the refs swallow their whistles down the stretch of playoff games?


I also hated Tyler pulling a Troy and attempting to steal the rebound from Paul which resulted in it going out of bounds. I rewound and you can see that Paul is clearly in Tyler's vision and already getting to the ball before Tyler even lifts off the ground. He just bulled ahead on up and basically went over Paul's back to get the ball. WTF was that? Weird play, and IMO Paul and AJ didn't look that thrilled with Tyler afterward.




Oh well, at least Paul George seems to be finding his way back on track.


Great post. You said exactly everything I have been thinking. Especially with Tyler. He's so out of control it's funny sometimes. And yes....Rush is doing a lot better job of moving lately. And Josh is the least selfish person on a team full of shoot first players and he is the one getting criticized?

bellisimo
03-03-2011, 07:01 AM
I remember back in the days of Reggie and M.Jax the team would always talk about binding together and improving the chemistry of the team during these long road trips...

we need that veteran presence to get these guys together and to keep their heads up instead of having them fall flat on their faces night in and night out in this road trip and all the wheels popping out of the wagon...

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 07:35 AM
I'm not buying Lance either. He's got all these street moves that look fancy but he doesn't really do much with them. He'll jet to the lane and right into guys waiting on him, often forcing him to throw up a pretty weak layup of some sort.

He's raw so I'll give it a lot more time. But right now he's got all the markings of a guy that somehow looks flashier and more gifted than his actual applied game is. I think what you are seeing is what you already saw with Cincy.

The NBA has flash, but underneath that is a solid set of fundamental skills and choices that make the flash come easier. Lance's best play was the pass to Collison and that was all due to Collison making a nice cut.


I think is funny that you don't buy Lance "street moves" but you buy Josh two dunks a game and fancy passes :confused:

I would also say that Lance best pass was the one no look pass to Hans that Tyler missed.

Sollozzo
03-03-2011, 07:44 AM
The Thunder had lost 3 straight. You knew they weren't happy about that and were looking for someone to take it out on. Lucky for them, they were playing an inferior team in us.

Sollozzo
03-03-2011, 07:47 AM
What? I though Josh had the best overall game tonight. Rush and Paul just behind him. Josh and Rush each had one bad play, both missing on shots at the rim (ironically Rush missed the bunny after Josh through a great outlet pass to him behind the defense).



If our best players were two starters who combined for 4 points then no wonder we got killed.

yoadknux
03-03-2011, 08:09 AM
I wonder why no one mentions D.Jones. I thought he played good

rm1369
03-03-2011, 08:25 AM
Tyler and Josh both gave you the same thing they always do. Tyler - fga, Josh - team oriented basketball.

Unclebuck
03-03-2011, 09:02 AM
When the pacers were 8-2 9-2 under Vogel I kept asking how much of the good play was because of the technical changes that Vogel had made - changes in rotation, getting the ball inside, playing different players vs how much was it just because Frank isn't Jim and and Frank's positive approach. I was criticized for I suppose being negative towards Frank, but no, not at all. I was asking because the technical changes can last, the other changes were temporary - as I think we all now know

tflo
03-03-2011, 09:17 AM
Serge Ibaka killed us in the paint last night, we should have camped out behind the 3 point line and chucked all night.

Trophy
03-03-2011, 09:20 AM
I checked DC's stats from a few weeks ago and he was effective for this team. He was scoring in double digits and assisting the ball above his average.

What it's appeared now is that it's been one or the other.

He really needs to slow down and take better shots or assist the ball for a better look.

He's been pretty selfish of late, but when he's slowing down the offense, he's a good PG.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 09:38 AM
When the pacers were 8-2 9-2 under Vogel I kept asking how much of the good play was because of the technical changes that Vogel had made - changes in rotation, getting the ball inside, playing different players vs how much was it just because Frank isn't Jim and and Frank's positive approach. I was criticized for I suppose being negative towards Frank, but no, not at all. I was asking because the technical changes can last, the other changes were temporary - as I think we all now know
I think you underestimate being a players coach and overestimating the technical changes. I don't disagree that running a different system is itself fundamentally important but so is getting the best out of the players in that system that suits there strengths.

I chalk vogels earlier record to the bad teams we were playing. I know some of it was the honeymoon period but a lot of people were ignoring the fact of a teams win lost record when we played them.

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 09:42 AM
5 assists and that doesn't even count these two plays...

Long outlet to Rush behind the defense, Rush misses the layup.

Nice feed to Tyler cutting in front of the rim, Tyler is instead fouled and misses the FG.

You left out in the last few minutes Josh's beautiful behind the back pass on the baseline to Lance wide open under the hoop. Lance was so shocked it hit him in the chest and bounced out of bounds.

Also, Lance's best pass was also in the final minutes. He drove to the hoop and put a bounce pass right in front of Tyler with a wide open layup. Tyler missed it.

This team could have had ten more assists tonight if guys had made layups.

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 09:51 AM
When the pacers were 8-2 9-2 under Vogel I kept asking how much of the good play was because of the technical changes that Vogel had made - changes in rotation, getting the ball inside, playing different players vs how much was it just because Frank isn't Jim and and Frank's positive approach. I was criticized for I suppose being negative towards Frank, but no, not at all. I was asking because the technical changes can last, the other changes were temporary - as I think we all now know

Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think the only game we've lost so far that we should have won is the Detroit overtime game.

We've been close in a lot of games against better teams. We took Phoenix to overtime. There are a boatload of reasons why we should have lost to this Thunder team. Of course, getting waxed by 30 and looking like crap makes it worse, but an L is simply an L.

I don't think "technical changes" are as important as personnel decisions. Vogel has been rational about who he plays and allowed players to find some kind of groove. Then there's Vogel's emphasis on toughness, playing in the paint, and good shot selection.

We've won all the games we were supposed to except one. We've won one at least (Portland) that was against a team with a better schedule.

I'm still quite happy with the Vogel era.

P.S. AND, we are giving guy's like Lance a chance, who could jack up our offense to another level.

thewholefnshow31
03-03-2011, 10:12 AM
I know you all love Tyler, but I'm tired of calling what he does "offense", apart from the long set jumpers. Most of his shots look like outright "throw the ball at the rim roughly and hope for foul" moves. There's no control or plan to them whatsoever.

I've admitted many times over that I underestimated his ability to draw fouls in the NBA game. But frankly without those FTAs he'd really be killing the team, hustle or otherwise. He desperately needs to develop some set of reliable inside moves to get repeatable, make-able shots. What good are FTAs when the refs swallow their whistles down the stretch of playoff games?

I could not agree more about Tyler's game. He relies way to much on getting to the free throw line and throwing the ball up and praying. What he does is not offense it is slop. Like you said what good will that "offense" be come playoff time when the refs swallow those whistles? He will practically be useless out there down the stretch.

This offseason is a make or break season for Tyler. I think if he can develop some low post moves and be get consistent shots down there he can make a real case for being our solution at PF. If he does not he will just a career back up and we will have to make more moves to improve over him and Josh.

BillS
03-03-2011, 10:28 AM
It might have been Roy's worst game ever. He was indecisive on his post moves and often failed to pass out of doubles early when he needed to.

It was so bad my wife looked at me and said, "I finally see what you mean about Roy."


I also hated Tyler pulling a Troy and attempting to steal the rebound from Paul which resulted in it going out of bounds. I rewound and you can see that Paul is clearly in Tyler's vision and already getting to the ball before Tyler even lifts off the ground. He just bulled ahead on up and basically went over Paul's back to get the ball. WTF was that? Weird play, and IMO Paul and AJ didn't look that thrilled with Tyler afterward.

I think the mentality is to just go for the rebound no matter what, which - though it leads to things like that play sometimes - is much better than some of the "after you, Alfonse" rebounding we've seen in days of yore, where players defer and the opponent swoops in and steals the rebound.

To me, that's something you can focus on in practice, letting one person be the focal for the ball while the other looks for people to block away from the rebound. It isn't going to happen in games because there isn't enough repetition to make it instinctive.

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 10:36 AM
I could not agree more about Tyler's game. He relies way to much on getting to the free throw line and throwing the ball up and praying. What he does is not offense it is slop. Like you said what good will that "offense" be come playoff time when the refs swallow those whistles? He will practically be useless out there down the stretch.

I agree. He throws up some real crap.

But here's the deal: right now, it's working, because he is getting calls. (Okay, last night's 4-18 performance didn't work, but in general—work with me!).

Tyler is a proven performer, obstacle overcomer. When it stops working (playoffs, better adjustments by opponents on how to handle him), he will find another way and he will make better decisions. He's got too much overachievement in his past for that not too happen, imo.

k_lewis93
03-03-2011, 10:40 AM
This game was terrible and was hard to watch but just kept thinking that a loss is a loss and no need to be angry. They had lost 3 straight and were ready to take it out on someone. It was awesome to see Lance get good playing time and I though he looked great. I can see this guy being our starting PG.

naptownmenace
03-03-2011, 11:11 AM
The three quarters of the game that I watched looked a bit like a junior varsity vs. varsity matchup from high school. It felt that lopsided.

The Lakers and Spurs better have their games fine tuned when the playoffs arrive. This OKC team is set up.

I really do think that this OKC team could beat the Lakers in a 7 game series this year if they get the chance to play each other. I doubt that they could beat the Spurs unless, Parker struggles after returning from injury.

OKC is 37-22. They are one of the top 10 teams in the entire NBA. They were playing at home after losing 3 games in-a-row for the first time all season. The Pacers were doomed from the start. This is one of those games that you just have to accept and move on from as quickly as possible.

I think this loss should be easier to bounce back from than the close Phoenix game. No need to even review the tape of that game. Everything went wrong for the starters so all they have to do when they prepare for Dallas is say do the complete opposite.

PacerGuy
03-03-2011, 11:19 AM
We got steamrolled by a superior team on their court who had lost 3 straight to 60-win teams, & while they are in 4th in the West, they are only 4 games out of 8th. They were mad, focused & we were not able to match their intensity. While I am disapointed (esp in a few things I saw), at the ECD "it is what it is". Some other thoughts:

-Tone set early where we did not get a few calls, Danny in particular got in the ref's face, then proceeded to commit an obvious offensive foul out of frusteration (he knew he did it - didn't even flinch when whistled!). This was Danny's 2nd foul, & IMO he let his frusteration hurt the team. Bad form.

-Tyler had a bad night, but his frusteration got bad late. He fought teammates for rebounds & late jacked up a late 3 not in the flow, obviously out of frusteration. I would like to have seen Vogel pull him (even if there was only a few seconds left) & send Tyler a message. I like Ty's aggression, but I saw him pout a bit last night & I did not like that!

-I like watching Lance. Kid is raw, but there is something there. IMO he needs to be a bit more selfish, & more aggressive when driving to the hoop (kid needs to learn that when you can you stuff it, not lay it up - ask Reggie how that can haunt you!). Lance seems a bit timid, always trying to do the right thing rather then just flowing in the offense. He will not be a saviour, and will make a lot of mistakes, but this experience will help him for n/y (& will help Larry better know what he has & what he needs going into the summer).

-DC is starting to concern me. He is not tking care of the ball, & he is constantly getting blocked when driving to the rim. Teams have seemingly figured him out a bit. I am not liking him looking for his offense so early in games. Rarely does he ever try to get Danny going early. He does w/ Roy at times, but that seems to be a team focus moreso then DC. Early in the season I saw DC running the floor, directing the offense, lately I have not.

boombaby_rm31
03-03-2011, 11:23 AM
http://www.nba.com/games/20110302/INDOKC/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0021000908#nbaGIboxscore

the highlights didnt even show a single pacer play... except for the layups getting blocked. lol

Mackey_Rose
03-03-2011, 11:24 AM
I think is funny that you don't buy Lance "street moves" but you buy Josh two dunks a game and fancy passes :confused:

The difference is that those fancy passes are not just made for the purpose of being fancy. They are made because that is the best or only play available. So in essence, while they are fancy and look good, there is a fundamental thought process behind them.

The behind the back pass to Danny last night? The absolute only way to get him the ball there. He wasn't ready for it either, the ball nearly got by him. The same situation with the pass to Lance, he just didn't react at all, while Danny was able to react in time and put in the lay-up.

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 11:52 AM
The difference is that those fancy passes are not just made for the purpose of being fancy. They are made because that is the best or only play available. So in essence, while they are fancy and look good, there is a fundamental thought process behind them.

The behind the back pass to Danny last night? The absolute only way to get him the ball there. He wasn't ready for it either, the ball nearly got by him. The same situation with the pass to Lance, he just didn't react at all, while Danny was able to react in time and put in the lay-up.

My argument with Seth is that he is telling us how amazing Mcbob is ignoring how good Lance looked calling his game "street basketball" I think I know why his games could be considered from the street and that is because the guy learned how to play ball on the streets.

righteouscool
03-03-2011, 11:55 AM
Josh is an excellent passer, but do we really need a power forward with super guard skills? Isn't that was a guard is for?

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 11:59 AM
My concern about Collison is mental toughness.

He was making such a high percentage from midrange until the past three weeks. His slump is a sign of mental struggles.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:00 PM
Josh is an excellent passer, but do we really need a power forward with super guard skills? Isn't that was a guard is for?

On a team full of bad, and often times unwilling, passers you need good ones any place you can find them. The fact that our best passer is 6'10" is irrelevant.

Mackey_Rose
03-03-2011, 12:00 PM
Josh is an excellent passer, but do we really need a power forward with super guard skills? Isn't that was a guard is for?

It might be if we had a guard with "super guard skills."

MyFavMartin
03-03-2011, 12:05 PM
Anybody think the officiating in the 1st quarter took our starters out of it? It seemed our guys were getting fouled on the way to the hoop a lot and it wasn't getting called. I know you guys hate when officiating is pointed out, but DG was livid.

Also, we had trouble feeding Roy again. And we he did get it, it seemed they came with a triple team... Can we not recognize that and move to an open spot for an easy kick-out and open shot? How about cutting down the lane or weakside post guy cutting to the middle of the lane/shoulder?

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 12:06 PM
A lot of our guys look like they could care less on defense.

They didn't care for Jimmy either, they just need to be re-programed. With 20 or so games to go, I don't expect to see much improvement. If they are planning on playing in the playoffs where "D" counts, they had best start playing "D" or they will be swept.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:11 PM
Anybody think the officiating in the 1st quarter took our starters out of it? It seemed our guys were getting fouled on the way to the hoop a lot and it wasn't getting called. I know you guys hate when officiating is pointed out, but DG was livid.

No. Granger earned both his fouls. The offensive foul especially was a no brainer call. If he was livid, he should have been livid with himself. McRoberts earned his quick 2 as well. He fouled Ibaka when he was lazy getting back for the rebound in transition off a turnover, then had to take a hard foul on a dunk attempt when Hibbert made Nazr Mohammed look like Allen Iverson they way he got blown by.


Also, we had trouble feeding Roy again. And we he did get it, it seemed they came with a triple team... Can we not recognize that and move to an open spot for an easy kick-out and open shot? How about cutting down the lane or weakside post guy cutting to the middle of the lane/shoulder?


We got the ball into Roy plenty. And he had open guys when he was doubled. He just never got it to them. Roy was utterly deplorable this game on both ends of the court.

Hicks
03-03-2011, 12:12 PM
On a team full of bad, and often times unwilling, passers you need good ones any place you can find them. The fact that our best passer is 6'10" is irrelevant.

So Josh's skills become less and less relevant the more we improve in the back court....?

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 12:13 PM
What has happened to Collison?
Has anyone wondered if "Lance's footsteps behind him" is part of Collison's struggle?

Speed
03-03-2011, 12:13 PM
I think it was a mediocre team running into a really good team with a purpose.

I agree with Seth, that Roy had a horrible game. He's digressed remarkably in his ability to score in the low post, I'm really amazed. His errors are really dramatic.

I disagree with Seth that JMac played well, he play dramatically when it was garbage time, but otherwise he was just what he is.

I'm hesitant to make bad remarks against JMac coming off a big loss that was really not his fault in anyway, but I'll say this. Josh needs to rebound much, much better if he's going to be a player that deserves the minutes he is getting. I like the effort, but its just really his rebounding that is well not what you need from a PF, especially a starting PF. He becomes invisible on the boards way too often.

One more thing, editing, Lance is good off the dribble, maybe really good, but defensively at Point Guard he gets beat about 1/2 the time. Its really pretty glaring. I was also disappointing in the times they tried to post him up. It lacked the passers and patience to try to get him the ball and it lacked Lance trying to get low position. If you aren't going to do it right, just dont' do it. IF the defender fronts him Lance just keeps moving farther from the basket and it kinda defeats the purpose. More work to do on this for it to be something valuable. They need to watch Detroit and run some of the sets like they do for Stucky, but do it better.

I have other thoughts, but I'll just reserve that for another discussion.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:16 PM
They didn't care for Jimmy either, they just need to be re-programed. With 20 or so games to go, I don't expect to see much improvement. If they are planning on playing in the playoffs where "D" counts, they had best start playing "D" or they will be swept.

That starts with our supposed leader Danny Granger. He doesn't give a lick of effort defensively and just expects everyone to cover for him.

He *****ed at Hibbert for not bumping Durant when coming off a screen for a wide open layup. And I agree that Hibbert should have done so. But it comes off as extremely hypocritical when it is coming from a guy who didn't even attempt to get through that screen and hasn't tried on that end of the court since November.

Brad8888
03-03-2011, 12:20 PM
Could our struggles be due to opposing teams now having seen how the Pacers have changed, what the new tendencies are, and those teams now having made adjustments? It seems quite possible, even likely, to me. If so, now Vogel has to make additional adjustments and add other wrinkles, all while continuing to have the team focus on fundamental play. If he does, he is the coach many of us believe him to be. I hope he is able to.

Plainly, OKC was due and certainly played like it, and the loss comes as no real surprise. The magnitude was excessive, though if some additional shots had fallen the method by which the final margin would have been arrived at would have been somewhat different. Of course, had Durant not stepped on Hansbrough's foot...

Now, let the Texas Two-step commence! Goooooooo Pacers!!!!!!!!

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 12:20 PM
The Thunder are a difficult match-up for us, but the main lesson learned is that they were hungry and are very good. The talent level and athleticism are off the charts. They are very long and defensive minded team as well...that has real potential to make noise in the playoffs.

A team that good and extremely hungry for a win...on their home court...is a very difficult challenge for an average NBA team.


I have wanted Ibaka for a year now, and after watching him have a field day I have to laugh at those who didn't see his value and worth as a player. He IS the reason why OKC didn't give Green an extension. They had 2 weak spots, center & SG, and they fixed the center spot with Perkins (for Green) and Nzar. Hill looked great too. As a diehard Pacers fan, I'm envious of OKC having such a really good youthful team with such a bright future.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:22 PM
So Josh's skills become less and less relevant the more we improve in the back court....?

Probably.

If we had a decent point guard or wings who were good passers having a facilitator like Josh is less important.

When you've got bad point guards and wings who are bad passers, you need players with them who can get the ball where it needs to go. Ideally that would be a point guard but since ours cannot we need someone who can. On this team the only one who can happens to be a PF.

PacerGuy
03-03-2011, 12:25 PM
Josh has disappointed be, & I'm a BIG fan of his. He still is far too tenative on offense, & he in a non-factor on the boards. He is not playing w/ the same "hair in fire" style that endeared him to many of us. He is losing his min's because he is not producing. His passing is the only thing keeping him on the court at this point. McBob would not be such a liability if we had a scoring SG w/ Danny & Roy, but w/o that, he sticks out. Josh needs to start hitting the boards again, or I can not keep fighting for him.

Bball
03-03-2011, 12:29 PM
When the pacers were 8-2 9-2 under Vogel I kept asking how much of the good play was because of the technical changes that Vogel had made - changes in rotation, getting the ball inside, playing different players vs how much was it just because Frank isn't Jim and and Frank's positive approach. I was criticized for I suppose being negative towards Frank, but no, not at all. I was asking because the technical changes can last, the other changes were temporary - as I think we all now know

I preferred watching last night's blowout loss with Vogel on the sidelines than anything I saw from O'Brien's Pacers in wins or losses....

Speed
03-03-2011, 12:32 PM
I think the struggles are across the board. The Pacers players as constructed will get killed in a Playoff game, because they all have limitations. In a playoff series you'll be able to exploit the Pacers because they don't have a wide range of skills. It's really an easy scouting report.

Roy - put an athletic shot blocker on him. Take away the jump hook. Mix up the double, single, and fake double and make him make decisions.

Brandon Rush: guard the spot up 3.

JMac : put your worst defensive front court player on him. Pound the boards against him.

DC : make him guard the PnR, relentlessly.

Danny: Make him go left. Back pick him or move the spot up shooter he's guarding when he's ball gawking.

Hansbrough: box him out, don't foul him, play him for the spot key jumper and the baseline turn around. Make him rotate on Defense.

Paul: Make him take contested jumpers, don't iso against him, but make him play team defense.

D Jones: See Granger.

Jeff: box him out

Dunleavy: iso him

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 12:37 PM
I agree. It is amazing that I don't have a job with an NBA team.

Maybe it's because I never applied for one??



You might try with the Pacers as a talent evaluator. I'm still not sold on Bird's ability to evaluate talent. Hopefully before the start of next season Bird has pulled some magic out of his, hum hat, to bring in more talented players, especially athletic ones.

I wasn't one who was enthralled about getting AR, but he had 18 pts and 10 reb in Minnie's win over Detroit last night. It looks like Dumars has hit gold with Monroe.

owl
03-03-2011, 12:40 PM
The Pacers need two more quality big men. Roy is severely limited because of strength and
quickness. So another STRONG center and taller, STRONGER powerforward are needed.
Tyler is nice but he is too short. It really bothers me when we get pushed around inside and last night the Pacers looked like a HS team vs a College team. The Pacers need to take some of the Thunders players. Aldrich,Ibaka,Perkins. The Thunder will never be able to keep all their players. Westbrook and Durant are max players.

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 12:42 PM
I wonder why no one mentions D.Jones. I thought he played good


They only mention him and Dunleavy when the can complain about them.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Has anyone wondered if "Lance's footsteps behind him" is part of Collison's struggle?

He is a pro he shouldnt let things like that bother him, That would just be very menatly weakif that was the case.

Jared Sullinger
03-03-2011, 12:47 PM
McBob's excellent passing just isn't enough to make up for his sub-par scoring, rebounding and soft defense. It'd be a nice luxury if Josh delivered in other areas of the game, but he doesn't. There's a reason McBob fans must constantly bring up his passing when defending him. There's not much else to work with.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:52 PM
I will preface this by saying that I have not been happy with Josh's rebounding. I expect more. But his rebounding problems are overstated.

For instance, his rebounds per 48 minutes are .2 lower than Tyler's and I don't see that issue raised against his game. Usually that is mentioned as a strength.

Frontcourt rebounds per 48 minutes:

Foster: 18.1
Hibbert: 13.4
Hansbrough: 11.9
McRoberts: 11.7
S. Jones: 10.3
Posey: 8.3
Granger: 7.5

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 12:53 PM
He is a pro he shouldnt let things like that bother him, That would just be very menatly weakif that was the case.
That's my concern . . . that he is "menatly weakif."


:D

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Has anyone wondered if "Lance's footsteps behind him" is part of Collison's struggle?

No. It isn't like Collison is a different player than he was months ago. He still had the horrible court vision and defense when the season started. He was making more shots but that's the only real difference.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 12:56 PM
I will preface this by saying that I have not been happy with Josh's rebounding. I expect more. But his rebounding problems are overstated.

For instance, his rebounds per 48 minutes are .2 lower than Tyler's and I don't see that issue raised against his game. Usually that is mentioned as a strength.

Frontcourt rebounds per 48 minutes:

Foster: 18.1
Hibbert: 13.4
Hansbrough: 11.9
McRoberts: 11.7
S. Jones: 10.3
Posey: 8.3
Granger: 7.5

The problem is he is soft and doesnt like contact so that makes rebounding tuff for him.. Plus he doesnt box out or set hard screen none of our bigs do that. Foster does sometimes but tats all he does.

Ibaka and Naza set great screens last night which allowed there wings and pg to get open easier. That is a major problem in our offense we dont set good screens. So our wings dont get sepration.

Eleazar
03-03-2011, 01:08 PM
Could our struggles be due to opposing teams now having seen how the Pacers have changed, what the new tendencies are, and those teams now having made adjustments? It seems quite possible, even likely, to me. If so, now Vogel has to make additional adjustments and add other wrinkles, all while continuing to have the team focus on fundamental play. If he does, he is the coach many of us believe him to be. I hope he is able to.

Plainly, OKC was due and certainly played like it, and the loss comes as no real surprise. The magnitude was excessive, though if some additional shots had fallen the method by which the final margin would have been arrived at would have been somewhat different. Of course, had Durant not stepped on Hansbrough's foot...

Now, let the Texas Two-step commence! Goooooooo Pacers!!!!!!!!

Not likely, there is one big reason and one small reason.

The big reason is we are just playing teams that are better than us now. When you play teams that are better than you you are going to lose most of them.

the small reason is because Granger doesn't put in the amount of effort he needs to. He should be the hardest working player on this team, and if he did that he would be that he would dominate the floor against everyone except for the best of the best (i.e. LeBron, Kobe, Wade, etc.)

Sollozzo
03-03-2011, 01:11 PM
The Pacers need to take some of the Thunders players. Aldrich,Ibaka,Perkins. The Thunder will never be able to keep all their players. Westbrook and Durant are max players.


Who won't they be able to keep? They locked Durant up long-term in the off-season and Perk just signed a big extension. They'll give Westbrook whatever he wants when the time comes.

skip2mylou
03-03-2011, 01:23 PM
yeah, maybe Jim O'Brien was right for benching McRoberts?

The worst thing about him is that he always reminds me about the trade now.

Bird was absolutelty right with this trade. It's a big time talent upgrade we should have done.

(Yes, I can't stand McRoberts. And that he has so much support around here...I really don't understand.)

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 01:26 PM
yeah, maybe Jim O'Brien was right for benching McRoberts?

(Yes, I can't stand McRoberts. And that he has so much support around here...I really don't understand.)

He is our best PF but he and Tyler are very close. So no, he was not right in benching him just as he was not right in benching Tyler.

And Tyler's support outnumbers Josh's support by a very wide margin.

skip2mylou
03-03-2011, 01:29 PM
He is our best PF but he and Tyler are very close. So no, he was not right in benching him just as he was not right in benching Tyler.

And Tyler's support outnumbers Josh's support by a very wide margin.

Troy Murphy is better than both. :P And I'am only half-kidding.

At least he got some numbers every game :)

I think this could be an interesting poll. Put your Murphy hate aside, is he really worse than our current PF's?
His defense was absolutelty horrible, yes. But he shoots a high percentage and wasn't as selfish as Hansbrough. He mostly took good shots.
AND the main thing I liked about him, he was consistent...I miss that from our PF's...

The more I think about it, the more I'am not sure....

sry for my english :)

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 01:39 PM
Troy Murphy is better than both. :P And I'am only half-kidding.

At least he got some numbers every game :)

Those numbers are great for Troy's bank account.

Terrible for his team's win/loss record.

And I'm not even half-kidding.

I'll take either Josh or Tyler 100% of the time over a guy who doesn't help you win in any way.

Or a guy who has been in trouble forever and has a string of incidents just this season. Regardless of whether ot not he would provide a marginal talent upgrade.

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Troy Murphy is better than both. :P And I'am only half-kidding.

At least he got some numbers every game :)

I think this could be an interesting poll. Put your Murphy hate aside, is he really worse than our current PF's?
His defense was absolutelty horrible, yes. But he shoots a high percentage and wasn't as selfish as Hansbrough. He mostly took good shots.
AND the main thing I liked about him, he was consistent...I miss that from our PF's...

The more I think about it, the more I'am not sure....

sry for my english :)

NO

Hicks
03-03-2011, 01:48 PM
I will preface this by saying that I have not been happy with Josh's rebounding. I expect more. But his rebounding problems are overstated.

For instance, his rebounds per 48 minutes are .2 lower than Tyler's and I don't see that issue raised against his game.

Except for the part where we constantly hear about how much more athletic and a high-flyer Josh is than Tyler. Apparently that only counts when it's a dunk or a blocked shot.

Sookie
03-03-2011, 01:51 PM
Getting the ball to Roy, and getting the ball to Roy in a good position to score is different. DC's gotten better at actually getting the ball there, but he doesn't help Roy out. (And don't get me wrong, Roy was pretty darn bad.)

I agree with Seth's point though. Although I think that Brandon is not helping DC, and seeing as we are deadset with playing Lance, he'd be the one I'd sit down. But him and Josh were certainly better than our "good starters." That isn't saying much.

As for DC. He's not doing anything different, except not making shots. Difference now is we have a shinny new toy, and our whipping boy is injured..

Josh's problems on rebounding don't have to do with athleticism, they have to do with the fact that he doesn't box out. Which IS annoying, and it's so simple and generally so fundamental that it's surprising. But he needs to fix it.

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 01:58 PM
Except for the part where we constantly hear about how much more athletic and a high-flyer Josh is than Tyler. Apparently that only counts when it's a dunk or a blocked shot.

Don't forget the part were Josh gets block pretty easy when he is downlow even though he is bigger than Tyler( reason why Some people think Tyler is no good).

skip2mylou
03-03-2011, 02:06 PM
Those numbers are great for Troy's bank account.

Terrible for his team's win/loss record.

And I'm not even half-kidding.

I'll take either Josh or Tyler 100% of the time over a guy who doesn't help you win in any way.

Or a guy who has been in trouble forever and has a string of incidents just this season. Regardless of whether ot not he would provide a marginal talent upgrade.


Well... Miami and Boston must be really stupid to destroy their championship hopes when they called him up to play for them :P

He always was on bad teams, so he's the ultimate looser who can't win?


I agree that he played way too many minutes here. But split his minutes with one of your current PF's like we are doing right now...I'am not sure he would be the worst of the 3....

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 02:17 PM
Except for the part where we constantly hear about how much more athletic and a high-flyer Josh is than Tyler. Apparently that only counts when it's a dunk or a blocked shot.

That high flying athleticism is a major reason why he gets so many more blocked shots and the dunks are major reason why his field goal percentage is so much higher.

Also the dunks are usually swiped aside but two points is not always just two points. A 360 on the baseline gets the crowd going tenfold more than a midrange jumper.

Hicks
03-03-2011, 02:18 PM
That high flying athleticism is a major reason why he gets so many more blocked shots and the dunks are major reason why his field goal percentage is so much higher.

Also the dunks are usually swiped aside but two points is not always just two points. A 360 on the baseline gets the crowd going tenfold more than a midrange jumper.

We are still talking about his rebounding... right?

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 02:23 PM
We are still talking about his rebounding... right?

I was just pointing out that it makes no sense for rebounding to be thought a strength of one and a weakness of another when the difference amounts to 0.2 rebounds per 48 minutes of floor time.

You brought up the blocks and dunks. I just responded.

Speed
03-03-2011, 02:29 PM
I was just pointing out that it makes no sense for rebounding to be thought a strength of one and a weakness of another when the difference amounts to 0.2 rebounds per 48 minutes of floor time.

You brought up the blocks and dunks. I just responded.

I think Tyler needs to rebound better too, for a Power Forward.

I started to go into Tyler vs. Jmac again, but its a moot point. Neither are the answer at starting PF for the Pacers, imo.

Peck
03-03-2011, 02:36 PM
The problem is he is soft and doesnt like contact so that makes rebounding tuff for him.. Plus he doesnt box out or set hard screen none of our bigs do that. Foster does sometimes but tats all he does.

Ibaka and Naza set great screens last night which allowed there wings and pg to get open easier. That is a major problem in our offense we dont set good screens. So our wings dont get sepration.

While what you say has a ring of truth to it, it is not the full story.

Yes our bigs set some pitifull picks however the point guards do not use or properly use the the ones that they do get very often.

I have no idea how many times I've seen Tyler set a strong pick only to see D.C. or A.J. roll away from it.

You could not wedge a piece of paper between Mark Jackson and Dale Davis when they would run a high pick and the defender often times either went way out and around or had his teeth rattled by running into the wall that was Dale.

I'm with Brother Owl though on one thing, we really need a couple of big brutes who are willing to bang, set picks, rebound & defend.

Jeff has been perfect for this right now, but we have to face the facts that he can't go for long stretches anymore and we have got to be winding down his career before long.

I think with the news of this trade that didn't occur Josh is all but gone, which is a dang shame because I think he is a unique player with a very odd skill set.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 02:37 PM
I think Tyler needs to rebound better too, for a Power Forward.

I started to go into Tyler vs. Jmac again, but its a moot point. Neither are the answer at starting PF for the Pacers, imo.

I don't necessarily disagree.

But I don't see an answer in free agency either.

Unclebuck
03-03-2011, 02:42 PM
Tell me if I'm mistaken, but I think the only game we've lost so far that we should have won is the Detroit overtime game.

We've been close in a lot of games against better teams. We took Phoenix to overtime. There are a boatload of reasons why we should have lost to this Thunder team. Of course, getting waxed by 30 and looking like crap makes it worse, but an L is simply an L.

I don't think "technical changes" are as important as personnel decisions. Vogel has been rational about who he plays and allowed players to find some kind of groove. Then there's Vogel's emphasis on toughness, playing in the paint, and good shot selection.

We've won all the games we were supposed to except one. We've won one at least (Portland) that was against a team with a better schedule.

I'm still quite happy with the Vogel era.

P.S. AND, we are giving guy's like Lance a chance, who could jack up our offense to another level.


You aren't taking anything into account for a home game vs road game. I think tat home beating the Jazz and the Suns is reasonable, and splitting those two is to be expected. Losing both really isn't what we should xpect for barely above .500 teams. Also with the injuries the Blazers have sufferedm, we should beat them at home.

joeyd
03-03-2011, 03:14 PM
You aren't taking anything into account for a home game vs road game. I think tat home beating the Jazz and the Suns is reasonable, and splitting those two is to be expected. Losing both really isn't what we should xpect for barely above .500 teams. Also with the injuries the Blazers have sufferedm, we should beat them at home.

Yup, splitting the two games should be expected. Same deal with the Blazers. Agree on the logic; same logic I used in the "Guess the record after the all star game" thread. Expected to lose in OKC. Expect to lose in Dallas. Decent chance to beat Houston and better beat Philly. Otherwise I figure our odds of getting to the playoffs are much longer.

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 03:31 PM
I think Tyler needs to rebound better too, for a Power Forward.

I started to go into Tyler vs. Jmac again, but its a moot point. Neither are the answer at starting PF for the Pacers, imo.


W/o a doubt Bird knows it to thus the McBob for Mayo trade.

I'd really like to know who the 2 NO players were for Rush.

I look for Bird to go after a good starting PF, Hans the b/u with McBob not re-signed unless for around 2.5-3mil.

TheDon
03-03-2011, 03:32 PM
I think it's kind of worth noting and something even I didn't consider while we were getting our asses kicked by the thunder is it was the tail end of a back-to-back on the road and like it was noted earlier is after losing 3 in a row they were very upset and looking to take it out on someone. Unfortunately that someone was us.

After the Bobcats have seemingly went into tank mode by getting rid of almost all of their players that were worth anything. I'm not so much worried about them anymore I've been watching the Bucks as well their schedule is pretty easy down the stretch compared to ours and charlottes. I think if we can't pull off some wins against teams that nobody see's us beating then even the Bucks could end up sneaking up on us.

It's going to be really close down the stretch I hope we make it in.

Speed
03-03-2011, 03:37 PM
I think it's kind of worth noting and something even I didn't consider while we were getting our asses kicked by the thunder is it was the tail end of a back-to-back on the road and like it was noted earlier is after losing 3 in a row they were very upset and looking to take it out on someone. Unfortunately that someone was us.

After the Bobcats have seemingly went into tank mode by getting rid of almost all of their players that were worth anything. I'm not so much worried about them anymore I've been watching the Bucks as well their schedule is pretty easy down the stretch compared to ours and charlottes. I think if we can't pull off some wins against teams that nobody see's us beating then even the Bucks could end up sneaking up on us.

It's going to be really close down the stretch I hope we make it in.

It could get ugly. I see only 1 for sure win in the next 11 games. The most I could see them winning is 5, which would be a feat, I think. Like I said it could get ugly.

<TABLE class=listTable borderColor=#000000 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD class=lt_date>Fri 04</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Dallas (http://www.nba.com/mavericks/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sat 05</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Houston (http://www.nba.com/rockets/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Tue 08</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs Philadelphia (http://www.nba.com/sixers/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CAC89171?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Wed 09</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Minnesota (http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Fri 11</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Toronto (http://www.nba.com/raptors/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sun 13</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ New York (http://www.nba.com/knicks/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 6:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Tue 15</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs New York (http://www.nba.com/knicks/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CACD9176?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Wed 16</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Boston (http://www.nba.com/celtics/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Fri 18</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs Chicago (http://www.nba.com/bulls/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CAD09186?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sat 19</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Memphis (http://www.nba.com/grizzlies/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> </TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Mon 21</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ New Jersey (http://www.nba.com/nets/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Unclebuck
03-03-2011, 04:20 PM
If the Pacers win fewer than 38 games, I do not want them in the playoffs.

Pacergeek
03-03-2011, 04:32 PM
It could get ugly. I see only 1 for sure win in the next 11 games. The most I could see them winning is 5, which would be a feat, I think. Like I said it could get ugly.

<TABLE class=listTable borderColor=#000000 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD class=lt_date>Fri 04</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Dallas (http://www.nba.com/mavericks/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sat 05</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Houston (http://www.nba.com/rockets/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Tue 08</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs Philadelphia (http://www.nba.com/sixers/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CAC89171?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Wed 09</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Minnesota (http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Fri 11</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Toronto (http://www.nba.com/raptors/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sun 13</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ New York (http://www.nba.com/knicks/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 6:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Tue 15</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs New York (http://www.nba.com/knicks/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CACD9176?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Wed 16</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Boston (http://www.nba.com/celtics/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Fri 18</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs Chicago (http://www.nba.com/bulls/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CAD09186?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sat 19</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Memphis (http://www.nba.com/grizzlies/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> </TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Mon 21</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ New Jersey (http://www.nba.com/nets/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

which game is the sure win? i think we can take NY at home.

Eleazar
03-03-2011, 04:45 PM
It could get ugly. I see only 1 for sure win in the next 11 games. The most I could see them winning is 5, which would be a feat, I think. Like I said it could get ugly.

<TABLE class=listTable borderColor=#000000 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD class=lt_date>Fri 04</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Dallas (http://www.nba.com/mavericks/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sat 05</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Houston (http://www.nba.com/rockets/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Tue 08</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs Philadelphia (http://www.nba.com/sixers/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CAC89171?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Wed 09</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Minnesota (http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Fri 11</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Toronto (http://www.nba.com/raptors/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sun 13</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ New York (http://www.nba.com/knicks/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 6:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Tue 15</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs New York (http://www.nba.com/knicks/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CACD9176?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Wed 16</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Boston (http://www.nba.com/celtics/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:30pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Fri 18</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> vs Chicago (http://www.nba.com/bulls/) http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/ticket_icon.gif (http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/05004513CAD09186?brand=pacers&CAMEFROM=NBAPACERS_SCHEDULE)</TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Sat 19</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ Memphis (http://www.nba.com/grizzlies/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 8:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> </TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR><TR><TD class=lt_date> Mon 21</TD><TD class=lt_opponent> @ New Jersey (http://www.nba.com/nets/) </TD><TD class=lt_time> 7:00pm</TD><TD class=lt_localtv> FSIHD</TD><TD class=lt_nattv> http://www.nba.com/media/broadcastlogos/broadcast_NBALP.gif</TD><TD class=lt_radio> WIBC 93 FM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I disagree, I only see 3 games that I would expect this team to lose, and 5 games that this team should win. The final 3 games are a toss up.

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 04:52 PM
If the Pacers win fewer than 38 games, I do not want them in the playoffs.

<a href="http://s449.photobucket.com/albums/qq215/DeanArnold/?action=view&amp;current=pic_mean_teacher.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq215/DeanArnold/pic_mean_teacher.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Peck
03-03-2011, 05:34 PM
If the Pacers win fewer than 38 games, I do not want them in the playoffs.

So let it be decreed that on this date Uncle Buck is advocating that we tank.:D

90'sNBARocked
03-03-2011, 05:55 PM
I think Tyler needs to rebound better too, for a Power Forward.

I started to go into Tyler vs. Jmac again, but its a moot point. Neither are the answer at starting PF for the Pacers, imo.

You right

but the question should be who can solidify the back up PF spot?

CableKC
03-03-2011, 06:05 PM
If the Pacers win fewer than 38 games, I do not want them in the playoffs.
You lost me here.....if we win 38 games and we make the Playoffs...you don't want them in the Playoffs?

Am I the only one that thinks that this is a very "un-Unclebuck" type of response?

Do we really have to re-hash the entire "why it is important for young Teams/Players to get a taste of the Playoffs and how it is a critical part of development" discussion that we have had for the last 3 seasons?

xIndyFan
03-03-2011, 06:15 PM
You right

but the question should be who can solidify the back up PF spot?

seems to me, that question was probably answered by the memphis almost trade.

i also think the tyler vs josh hate is silly and counterproductive. it leads to zero sum game arguements where a poster trashes tyler to defend josh and vice versa.

both guys have holes in their game. neither of them is anything but the worst starting PF in the league. both of them look like they could be rotation players going forward. but both are limited ability high-energy guys. jmo, but i don't see any need going forward for both of them. which is what 90's just said sorta, :o :laugh:

jmo, but tyler looks like the guy with more upside and PF skills. since he is a [slightly] better rebounder, much better offensive rebounder, can score and has a certain degree of toughness. tyler looks like a guy that can come off the bench and score. an instant offense type guy. just a guess that these are the skills that are more important to bird.

xIndyFan
03-03-2011, 06:20 PM
You lost me here.....if we win 38 games and we make the Playoffs...you don't want them in the Playoffs?

Am I the only one that thinks that this is a very "un-Unclebuck" type of response?

Do we really have to re-hash the entire "why it is important for young Teams/Players to get a taste of the Playoffs and how it is a critical part of development" discussion that we have had for the last 3 seasons?

yeah, me too. :confused: playoff experience would seem to be important for player development. and a good judge of just how far the core has to go.

it seems to me that making the playoffs and testing themselves against a superior team in a pressure situation is very important, no matter how many games they've won.

Speed
03-03-2011, 06:25 PM
which game is the sure win? i think we can take NY at home.

I was counting a road game against Toronto, but I honestly thought it was here.....

Speed
03-03-2011, 06:28 PM
You right

but the question should be who can solidify the back up PF spot?

That may the biggest, most important question the Pacers have faced in a long time, I think.

I loved Oklahoma Citys Ibaka last night, where can you get a player like him?

LA_Confidential
03-03-2011, 07:03 PM
I don't necessarily disagree.

But I don't see an answer in free agency either.

If Larry doesn't hang it up, you can just about bet ur a** that somebody is gonna get traded to improve this team. It may be someone you don't even expect to get traded, but somebody will.

LA_Confidential
03-03-2011, 07:04 PM
That may the biggest, most important question the Pacers have faced in a long time, I think.

I loved Oklahoma Citys Ibaka last night, where can you get a player like him?

Africa.

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 07:28 PM
but the question should be who can solidify the back up PF spot?


NO, that's not the important question. The important question is who can Bird get a a quality starting PF. Then as an after thought, who will his b/u be between Hans and McBob?

Justin Tyme
03-03-2011, 07:30 PM
You lost me here.....if we win 38 games and we make the Playoffs...you don't want them in the Playoffs?

Am I the only one that thinks that this is a very "un-Unclebuck" type of response?

Do we really have to re-hash the entire "why it is important for young Teams/Players to get a taste of the Playoffs and how it is a critical part of development" discussion that we have had for the last 3 seasons?



UB said LESS than 38 games.

xIndyFan
03-03-2011, 07:42 PM
. . . I loved Oklahoma Citys Ibaka last night, where can you get a player like him?

not :censored: there. wouldn't he look nice in B&G.

BlueNGold
03-03-2011, 08:04 PM
seems to me, that question was probably answered by the memphis almost trade.

i also think the tyler vs josh hate is silly and counterproductive. it leads to zero sum game arguements where a poster trashes tyler to defend josh and vice versa.

both guys have holes in their game. neither of them is anything but the worst starting PF in the league. both of them look like they could be rotation players going forward. but both are limited ability high-energy guys. jmo, but i don't see any need going forward for both of them. which is what 90's just said sorta, :o :laugh:

jmo, but tyler looks like the guy with more upside and PF skills. since he is a [slightly] better rebounder, much better offensive rebounder, can score and has a certain degree of toughness. tyler looks like a guy that can come off the bench and score. an instant offense type guy. just a guess that these are the skills that are more important to bird.

I don't know if the "almost-trade" proved much. Memphis probably wanted Josh. I highly...make that very highly...suspect that the Pacers would part with Tyler for Mayo as well...and it would be a no brainer...and no, I don't care for Mayo.

So, this trade should be a complement to Josh McRoberts. It should surprise no one that teams trade players AND try to get better.

As for me, all things being equal, I would part with Josh. Tyler is a great energy player to bring off the bench...and I happen to think he brings more to the table. Not a lot more...but more.

wintermute
03-03-2011, 08:24 PM
I loved Oklahoma Citys Ibaka last night, where can you get a player like him?

It's worth considering where OKC got him. He was drafted by the then Sonics with 24th overall pick in the 2008 draft, i.e. same draft where we got Hibbert and Rush.

He was the quintessential project player then - an extremely raw player gifted with extraordinary athleticism. How many players like that have failed to pan out? But Ibaka did, and OKC is now reaping the rewards.

A player with a similar profile IMO is Kevin Seraphin, drafted by the Wizards this year via the Bulls. Still very raw - he's barely played this year - but the Wizards are obviously high on him. He's a guy to watch, I think.

Edit: here's an article describing Seraphin's improvement on the Wizards

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2011/02/kevin-seraphins-development-from-illegal-screens-to-strong-post-moves-washington-wizards.html

Trophy
03-03-2011, 08:30 PM
Based on last night's performance, I don't feel confident in us beating some of the top teams we have coming up.

This team played with no desire to win last night and were pretty much having a shootaround with themselves.

rm1369
03-03-2011, 08:44 PM
I don't know if the "almost-trade" proved much. Memphis probably wanted Josh. I highly...make that very highly...suspect that the Pacers would part with Tyler for Mayo as well...and it would be a no brainer...and no, I don't care for Mayo.

So, this trade should be a complement to Josh McRoberts. It should surprise no one that teams trade players AND try to get better.

As for me, all things being equal, I would part with Josh. Tyler is a great energy player to bring off the bench...and I happen to think he brings more to the table. Not a lot more...but more.

I agree with most of this - except I prefer Josh. Either way it is the whole reason I had such a problem with the Tyler pick - backup PF wasn't a huge need. To pass on a starting PG for a backup PF was awful. Jrue sure would look nice in a Pacer uniform. I think your right that Josh likely won't be back. It's just another hit for one of Birds "good" moves.

Ultimately everyone is making way to much of this game. The Pacers are who they have been all season - a young, mediocre team. They feasted on emotion and an easy schedule before the break. I think they are better under Vogle, but only marginally. Contrary to many Pacers fans opinion, you need talent to win and this team is still severely lacking in that department.

Hoop
03-03-2011, 09:09 PM
You lost me here.....if we win 38 games and we make the Playoffs...you don't want them in the Playoffs?

Am I the only one that thinks that this is a very "un-Unclebuck" type of response?

Do we really have to re-hash the entire "why it is important for young Teams/Players to get a taste of the Playoffs and how it is a critical part of development" discussion that we have had for the last 3 seasons?
It is very Buck like, he is in a back handed way still defending JOB every chance he gets. Just like he waits for any opportunity to stick it to McBob, while never ever thinking about admitting he just might have been wrong.

lavell12
03-03-2011, 09:20 PM
I don't know if the "almost-trade" proved much. Memphis probably wanted Josh. I highly...make that very highly...suspect that the Pacers would part with Tyler for Mayo as well...and it would be a no brainer...and no, I don't care for Mayo.

So, this trade should be a complement to Josh McRoberts. It should surprise no one that teams trade players AND try to get better.

As for me, all things being equal, I would part with Josh. Tyler is a great energy player to bring off the bench...and I happen to think he brings more to the table. Not a lot more...but more.

the only thing that Tyler is better than Josh at right now is scoring more points but he doesn't it at a much less efficient way. Shooting 43% is horrible for a guy who just plays inside. If Josh took as many shots as Tyler he would score more than Tyler does. It isn't like Tyler goes out there and drops 30 points, if you are going to just look to shoot this much you better score a lot more. Josh is by far a better defender and facilitator of the offense. The truth is that neither is a starting caliber PF and belong as backups on deferent teams. I say re-sign Josh and trade Tyler in the offseason.

lavell12
03-03-2011, 09:26 PM
You right

but the question should be who can solidify the back up PF spot?

I think Josh has more value as a backup b/c he can also backup the center position which Tyler can't do.

xIndyFan
03-03-2011, 09:29 PM
the only thing that Tyler is better than Josh at right now is scoring more points but he doesn't it at a much less efficient way. Shooting 43% is horrible for a guy who just plays inside. If Josh took as many shots as Tyler he would score more than Tyler does. It isn't like Tyler goes out there and drops 30 points, if you are going to just look to shoot this much you better score a lot more. Josh is by far a better defender and facilitator of the offense.

not trying to fight, just asking. ;)

is josh a better defender? he is taller, but not any stronger. josh should be more of a shot blocker, but gets pushed around more it seems. tyler seems to get shot over more. idk. :whoknows::confused:

lavell12
03-03-2011, 09:32 PM
not trying to fight, just asking. ;)

is josh a better defender? he is taller, but not any stronger. josh should be more of a shot blocker, but gets pushed around more it seems. tyler seems to get shot over more. idk. :whoknows::confused:

I think Josh is a better defender b/c he is a better shot blocker and he can defend guys that play outside and inside. Josh is a better athlete so he can guard more athletic guys that Tyler can't. I think is really of no dispute here that Josh is the better defender.

BringJackBack
03-03-2011, 09:36 PM
I think Tyler is the better defender because he doesn't let the opposing power forward average way too many offensive rebounds per game due to him actually boxing out unlike Josh.. Other than that Josh and Tyler are about equal defensively.

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 09:42 PM
I think Josh is a better defender b/c he is a better shot blocker and he can defend guys that play outside and inside. Josh is a better athlete so he can guard more athletic guys that Tyler can't. I think is really of no dispute here that Josh is the better defender.

Tyler was guarding a quick guard all over the place yesterday, no doubt he is a better defender so I disagree with you.

Edit: Josh is supposed to be able to guard quicker guards but I haven't seen it yet.

McKeyFan
03-03-2011, 10:05 PM
I think Tyler can play good defense. Laterally quick. Physical, holds his ground. Quick strong hands that deflect the ball away. Ape like long arms that hang low to the ground. Had a highlight block a couple games ago.

lavell12
03-04-2011, 12:06 AM
Tyler was guarding a quick guard all over the place yesterday, no doubt he is a better defender so I disagree with you.

Edit: Josh is supposed to be able to guard quicker guards but I haven't seen it yet.

I think you mean forwards, i haven't heard anyone say he should be playing D against guards.

vnzla81
03-04-2011, 12:24 AM
I think you mean forwards, i haven't heard anyone say he should be playing D against guards.

Daequan Cook is a guard, many players Tyler plays are guards or small forward because Vogel refuse to go small with the other team(and I like that)