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vnzla81
03-01-2011, 09:37 PM
Good game by the pacers, they beat a team that has the same record than us in the west :D

BringJackBack
03-01-2011, 09:43 PM
-Loved the work by Hanbrough/George/Lance in the end of the third.

-I want to see more Paul George and Lance with less Dahntay and Rush.

-If we want to keep from our starters struggling due to lack of chemistry/assertiveness all the time, we're probably going to have to increase either Paul George or Tyler Hansbrough's roles.

-Danny was very, very good. Love what he did today.

-Roy had a very good first half. Ditto for Tyler.

-Loving Lance because he brings versatility, defense, and activity/energy.

CableKC
03-01-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm glad we won....but how many "ugly" wins are we going to have?

IMHO....we simply got luck that Dorrell Wright didn't hit that open 3pt shot at the end of the game.

The way we played could allow us to "eek" out a win against Teams that we are somewhat equal to or way better then...but against Teams that are way better then us...they will beat each and every time.

Also...one more thing....with the addition of Lance...we've added one more Player to the rotation. Did we end up having different lineups that we haven't really seen before?

I recall seeing DC out there running the Goon Squad :shrug: I really wonder if there is a certain sense of "unfamiliarity" among the different lineups.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 09:44 PM
I really liked seeing DC and Lance out there at the same time.

There was a lot of ball movement.

Lance seems more comfortable playing the 2, IMO.

DC played like himself.

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2011, 09:44 PM
Off topic but I was just on realGM and there is about 12 pages of a welcome Murphy thread. They are sooooooooo fired up about getting Murphy

I guess one teams trash is another teams treasure

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2011, 09:45 PM
I'm glad we won....but how many "ugly" wins are we going to have?

IMHO....we simply got luck that Dorrell Wright didn't hit that open 3pt shot at the end of the game.

The way we played could allow us to "eek" out a win against Teams that we are somewhat equal to or way better then...but against Teams that are way better then us...they will beat each and every time.

Also...one more thing....with the addition of Lance...we've added one more Player to the rotation. Did we end up having different lineups that we haven't really seen before?

I recall seeing DC out there running the Goon Squad :shrug: I really wonder if there is a certain sense of "unfamiliarity" among the different lineups.

all true but , finding ways to win, no?

PacersFan1991
03-01-2011, 09:46 PM
Good win, hope to witness a Pacers win here tommorow in OKC!

Kemo
03-01-2011, 09:46 PM
An Interesting stat of the night...

Our bigs combined for 9 assists ( Hibbert, McRoberts, Foster )

While out point guards only combined for 5 ( DC , Stephenson, Price )








.

docpaul
03-01-2011, 09:46 PM
This was a sloppy game, IMO.

Relatively poor ball movement overall, odd point guard play, and if not for that strong stretch by George, we would have lost this game. Just looked at the box score, and the assist count was pitifully low.

I can't quite see what's happening here, but it's clear that they've moved away from anything resembling motion offense. :)

Tired of watching DJ playing ball hog. It seems like every darn time he gets the ball in his hands, he shoots or drives to the hoop.

The result of this: a lot of players standing around on subsequent possessions.

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2011, 09:47 PM
I really liked seeing DC and Lance out there at the same time.

There was a lot of ball movement.

Lance seems more comfortable playing the 2, IMO.

DC played like himself.

The thing is , Lance is a good enough ball handler that you can play him in the backcourt with DC, and they both can play on and off the ball
http://www.pacersdigest.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1182583



DC had 1 assist in 27 minutes, Lance had 2 in 13

Gamble1
03-01-2011, 09:49 PM
Personally I would like to see a Lance, PG, and Granger line up.

PacerDude
03-01-2011, 09:49 PM
Lance just needs to turn it down a bit. A few times, he was just a little out of control.

But the kid has talent - no doubt. Hopefully once he gets comfortable playing and gets the jitters out of his system, he could be an important piece of this team.

It's still early in the post JOB era, but I like what I'm seeing.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 09:49 PM
Wow Roy and Josh had more assists than DC.

DC slowed down the offense though, but there weren't too many assists from anyone.

PaceBalls
03-01-2011, 09:50 PM
Off topic but I was just on realGM and there is about 12 pages of a welcome Murphy thread. They are sooooooooo fired up about getting Murphy

I guess one teams trash is another teams treasure

Troy will be the great Irish hope in Boston.. because you know.. it's Boston. He will be a fan favorite there and do no wrong. All those drive by dunks on him while he just turns his torso, the 5 rebounds per game he steals from Garnett at the FT line. NP. All he needs to do is hit that trailing 3pter and he is the golden boy. Very smart move by Troy going there.

Also the Warriors DO NOT have the same record as us :p

BringJackBack
03-01-2011, 09:50 PM
Tired of watching DJ playing ball hog. It seems like every darn time he gets the ball in his hands, he shoots or drives to the hoop.

The result of this: a lot of players standing around on subsequent possessions.

THIS. He's had a very good stretch, but it's time to shut it down.

daschysta
03-01-2011, 09:52 PM
Win in OKC would be wonderful. We're due for a good game aren't we xD.

PaceBalls
03-01-2011, 09:53 PM
Wow Roy and Josh had more assists than DC.

DC slowed down the offense though, but there weren't too many assists from anyone.

People were comparing AJ to Travis Best, but I think DC fits that bill more. I don't think DC is worth a big contract, maybe he will change my mind next year, but so far... I am not seeing it.

croz24
03-01-2011, 09:56 PM
george's defense really took the game over for a stretch there in the 4th. whether he was covering curry or ellis, gs just couldn't get a good shot off. the rest of the team could learn a thing or two watching pg play... and watching curry d up, i really don't understand how many of you view him as such a poor defender. he's not great, but he does put in the effort defensively... all in all big win because it'll be very tough for us to get 1 out of this road trip.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 09:56 PM
I like watching this team. I like watching them struggle, because I know that means they are learning. I like watching them play well, because they are a fun team when on.

Playing the young guys means that they will struggle, and we as a team will struggle. The complaining about some of them (coughDCcough) is getting old. Please let our first, second, and third year players develop and grow this year and enjoy it. Games will be more fun. :D

Now, about the game

Roy was on this game, really, passing scoring everything. We do need to find away to help him get the ball when he's posted up.

Lance looks right at the SG spot. He missed some bunnies, but I think that was a combo of nerves and being tired.

I thought DC was decent. Struggled at the end, but DC needs to learn how to win games.

I thought Josh was pretty good too.

Good to see PG snap out of his funk.

Units, our starting unit needs to learn how to box out and rebound better (looking at you Roy and Josh..although good improvement today)

Our second unit, is much better in transition than half court. I think AJ needs to look for his shot in the half court offense, and build from there. Everyone's just so stagnant there, I think the whole team tends to play better offensively when AJ's looking for his shot. However, they are clearly best in transition. And a very good defensive unit.

Overall, I think if they want a good West trip, they need to pick up their energy. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's really poor. They aren't the most talented team, and they are quite young and deep, so it's their energy that is going to help them steal a few.

Scot Pollard
03-01-2011, 09:56 PM
Holy smokes there were only 9,557 people in attendance tonight!

It looked like there were more people at the game than that.

That's like the lowest of all year and we've been having big crowds lately.

I couldn't make it tonight as I've been dealing with a bad headache all day.

Just looking forward to the playoffs and I think everyone is too.

yoadknux
03-01-2011, 09:57 PM
DG played great, glad we won.

PaceBalls
03-01-2011, 09:58 PM
THIS. He's had a very good stretch, but it's time to shut it down.

How weird is it that he is the best shooter on the team behind Josh? And it's not like Josh is actually looking to score. DJ is... Maybe he should keep trying to score?

Trophy
03-01-2011, 10:01 PM
People were comparing AJ to Travis Best, but I think DC fits that bill more. I don't think DC is worth a big contract, maybe he will change my mind next year, but so far... I am not seeing it.

I think DC is gonna improve to be better than Travis Best.

I just want him to slow down the offense every game and pass the ball for good looks rather than try and force shots he's not comfortable taking.

I see him averaging about 15-16 points and 6-7 assists throughout his career.

CableKC
03-01-2011, 10:04 PM
all true but , finding ways to win, no?
You lost me here....

Sookie
03-01-2011, 10:04 PM
How weird is it that he is the best shooter on the team behind Josh? And it's not like Josh is actually looking to score. DJ is... Maybe he should keep trying to score?

If he would just pass, SOMETIMES, instead of taking a poor shot, he'd be a really really really good role player.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:05 PM
I like watching this team. I like watching them struggle, because I know that means they are learning. I like watching them play well, because they are a fun team when on.

Playing the young guys means that they will struggle, and we as a team will struggle. The complaining about some of them (coughDCcough) is getting old. Please let our first, second, and third year players develop and grow this year and enjoy it. Games will be more fun. :D

Now, about the game

Roy was on this game, really, passing scoring everything. We do need to find away to help him get the ball when he's posted up.

Lance looks right at the SG spot. He missed some bunnies, but I think that was a combo of nerves and being tired.

I thought DC was decent. Struggled at the end, but DC needs to learn how to win games.

I thought Josh was pretty good too.

Good to see PG snap out of his funk.

Units, our starting unit needs to learn how to box out and rebound better (looking at you Roy and Josh..although good improvement today)

Our second unit, is much better in transition than half court. I think AJ needs to look for his shot in the half court offense, and build from there. Everyone's just so stagnant there. However, they are clearly best in transition. And a very good defensive unit.

Call me crazy but Lance was the best pg 2nite lol. He couldnt finish like he normaly does but he played better than he did vs PHX. Like bpump said I think he got fouled on 3 plays but Violet didnt call it.

I though paul played bad but still was some what good. He played really good in the 4th when it mattered which was good to see.



That 2nd qter was brutal to watch no one seemed to be giving effort luckly we snaped out of it.

BPump33
03-01-2011, 10:07 PM
Part of Lance not finishing was that he was getting hacked. He's not going to get many calls yet, but I felt like he should have been at the line 3 or 4 different times tonight.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:07 PM
please bench DJ he is so out of control play.I guess play him some because he fits the play style but Lance does better but god the guy doesnt know how to pass or just doesnt want 2.


DC and Lance together equall fail
Paul and Lance together were good
Lance and AJ were a good group also.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:08 PM
Part of Lance not finishing was that he was getting hacked. He's not going to get many calls yet, but I felt like he should have been at the line 3 or 4 different times tonight.

on the one he got called for a charge for he got the **** hacked out of him.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 10:09 PM
please bench DJ he is so out of control play.I guess play him some because he fits the play style but Lance does better but god the guy doesnt know how to pass or just doesnt want 2.


DC and Lance together equall fail
Paul and Lance together were good
Lance and AJ were a good group also.

There was more ball movement with them out there.

That's how we started to build on a lead.

Lance looks to be more of a 2 guard and it'll benefit the team.

docpaul
03-01-2011, 10:09 PM
One other bad sign: Jeremy Lin totally shut down our points in the first half. Full court pressure totally jarred DC specifically.

What was nice to see however, was McRoberts ability to facilitate the offense when the offense was clogged in the back court.

Generally speaking, our transition offense is consistently impressive. Hibbert had a really nice outlet pass in the 1st quarter.

focused444
03-01-2011, 10:12 PM
FWIW I watched the GSW broadcast and they compared Lance to Tyreke Evans within a few mins of seeing him. They probably see a lot of Evans being in Cali, right?

I like the energy Lance brings.

I agree with previous posters, this was another sloppy win, but if they can get into the playoffs I'd rather see them "peak" as a team then as opposed to now.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 10:12 PM
Dahntay is ruining this team with all those selfish, bad shots.

Lance at the 2 was moving the offense around more.

SG George/Lance(Rush)
SF Danny/George(Rush)

Paul does well with the starters.

Major Cold
03-01-2011, 10:14 PM
No more having Lance, DJones, and Hans on the floor at the same time....Simply chaotic.

BringJackBack
03-01-2011, 10:15 PM
I want to see DC play with more energy. He had that all year up until now.. Huh.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Call me crazy but Lance was the best pg 2nite lol. He couldnt finish like he normaly does but he played better than he did vs PHX.

I though paul played bad but still was some what good. He played really good in the 4th when it mattered which was good to see.



That 2nd qter was brutal to watch no one seemed to be giving effort luckly we snaped out of it.

You're crazy.

He looks much more comfortable at the 2. Although he didn't play particularly well at either spot. Lance wasn't good at all at point, better at SG.

That's okay, expected actually. It's his second game and half the time he's being played out of position. He was aggressive, which is good. He's also trying to bring energy to the game, and I think his teammates pick up their energy because they want to help him out. He just didn't do too well.

But here's what I mean..we've been raking on DC lately. We've been complaining about Granger, Josh ect..but Lance was good? No, Lance wasn't good. Lance should not get any blame whatsoever for not being good, but making like Lance was good and complaining about DC in the same breath is silly.

It's similar to the Dunleavy time period. People would whine incessantly about Dun's poor shooting, decision making, and defense..all while DC was shooting worse, making worse decisions, and playing worse defense.

There are obvious reasons for both (the hype and newness of Lance, and DC being more liked than Dun, and being a young guy) But it's just silly.

No, Lance wasn't close to being the best PG out there tonight. He struggled (Understandable, I am not bashing Lance here..not at all. Just being realistic. But no one should expect him to be really good out of the gate), AJ was off in lala land on offense, and DC was actually pretty good..he just made some mistakes. And that's completely okay, for all of them.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:19 PM
FWIW I watched the GSW broadcast and they compared Lance to Tyreke Evans with in a few mins of seeing him. They probably see a lot of Evans being in Cali, right?

I like the energy Lance brings.

I agree with previous posters, this was another sloppy win, but if they can get into the playoffs I'd rather see them "peak" as a team then as opposed to now.

He pretty much is T Evans style wise(attacking the rim a SG who has good handles). Just isnt polished plus Lance has more flare. Obviously Tyreke is a lot better but Lance will get there if he has the work ethic.

One thing I noticed about Lance is he jumps in the game while shooting a lot more. During warm ups he barley jumps.

presto123
03-01-2011, 10:19 PM
Why can't we guard the perimeter against good shooting and or hot shooting teams? How many wide open looks have teams got against us lately? I think I'd rather face up a little and take a chance on help defense than continually let teams shoot spot up shots all the time.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 10:20 PM
I look at DC and I see him improving his game in a year or 2 to be more of an ideal PG.

Mike Conley has improved a lot this season and was playing similar to DC in his first few seasons.

Roy, DC, Paul, Lance, and Tyler have a lot of potential and will be huge for this team in the future.

BPump33
03-01-2011, 10:22 PM
Why can't we guard the perimeter against good shooting and or hot shooting teams? How many wide open looks have teams got against us lately? I think I'd rather face up a little and take a chance on help defense than continually let teams shoot spot up shots all the time.

They did have a lot of open looks tonight, but even when we had a hand in their faces down the stretch they were still hitting. Their shooting down the stretch (minus Wright's wide open miss) was pretty impressive.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:24 PM
You're crazy.

He looks much more comfortable at the 2. Although he didn't play particularly well at either spot. Lance wasn't good at all at point, better at SG.

That's okay, expected actually. It's his second game and half the time he's being played out of position. He was aggressive, which is good. He's also trying to bring energy to the game, and I think his teammates pick up their energy because they want to help him out. He just didn't do too well.

But here's what I mean..we've been raking on DC lately. We've been complaining about Granger, Josh ect..but Lance was good? No, Lance wasn't good. Lance should not get any blame whatsoever for not being good, but making like Lance was good and complaining about DC in the same breath is silly.

It's similar to the Dunleavy time period. People would whine incessantly about Dun's poor shooting, decision making, and defense..all while DC was shooting worse, making worse decisions, and playing worse defense.

There are obvious reasons for both (the hype and newness of Lance, and DC being more liked than Dun, and being a young guy) But it's just silly.

No, Lance wasn't close to being the best PG out there tonight. He struggled (Understandable, I am not bashing Lance here..just putting a little perspective on it), AJ was off in lala land on offense, and DC was actually pretty good..he just made some mistakes. And that's completely okay, for all of them.

DC was getting torn up on defense in te 2nd half(but Curry was cold in the first) just saying they all 3 played pretty bad. To be honest I expected Lance to play horrible playing agasit a backcourt who gets alot of steals and is really quick. Plus it was his 2nd game and he came in reallyearly playing with the starters. His D was good before he got tired.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:25 PM
I look at DC and I see him improving his game in a year or 2 to be more of an ideal PG.

Mike Conley has improved a lot this season and was playing similar to DC in his first few seasons.

Roy, DC, Paul, Lance, and Tyler have a lot of potential and will be huge for this team in the future.

Mike Conely started fast and is fading play poorly of late. I just dont get it with him.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:29 PM
damm 0-4 for AJ 2-8 for Lance my eyes lied

But i stand by DC's defense was bad . He only had 1 assit what up with that?

graphic-er
03-01-2011, 10:30 PM
I think Lance looked really good. He was aggressive, and he led the break pretty well there with that nice pass to Tyler. He struggled mightily on getting around screens, but I think he recovered okay. Ellis hit an easy jumper cause Lance went under the screen, he didn't do it again though. All and all I was excited to see him play, and felt the team played pretty well with him on the court regardless of position.

I also did not like the 5 man sub with 5 minutes left in the 4th. Thats a terrible decision by Vogel, and nearly cost us the game. The second unit really gave us a lift in the 4th, only to see it squandered in 3 possessions by our starters. I can't believe we didn't lose the game.

DC is gonna have to step it up. So many times he hasn't actually set up a play until there is like less than 10 secs left on the clock! Then everyone scrambles like a chicken with its head cut off.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 10:32 PM
DC was getting torn up on defense in te 2nd half(but Curry was cold in the first) just saying they all 3 played pretty bad. To be honest I expected Lance to play horrible playing agasit a backcourt who gets alot of steals and is really quick. Plus it was his 2nd game and he came in reallyearly playing with the starters. His D was good before he got tired.

DC always gets torn up on defense, I don't evaluate that when I'm talking about his game performance :laugh:

And I've said over and over again, assists should not be how you evaluate the PGs. The ball movement, at times, looked as good as it has all season because DC was letting Josh and Roy facilitate. Point Guard's are supposed to make the offense run well. It did run well for a lot of the time with DC in the game.

BlueNGold
03-01-2011, 10:33 PM
I've been a Lance detractor but I thought he played better at PG than I expected. Not saying he was that good. I did like the jukes and think once he gets conditioned to the game he might become a handful on offense. However, I think he will get abused attempting to defend some PG's once they expose him. Time will tell. But I did like what I saw from him on offense. All he really needs is experience and conditioning. The simple truth is, on offense the dude has game. He might win me over if he can defend something. BTW, I don't see a great SG there. I see an interesting combo guard who could be a great player if he can handle the point.

Hicks
03-01-2011, 10:35 PM
I still like Lance more at the one. His talents center around him dribbling the ball, and I think he's worthless when you ask him to hang around the three point line away from the ball to be a catch and shoot guy.

I'm not arguing that he can't be a 2, but so far I'm not even close to convinced that he is not good enough to play the one, and again as long as that is the case, I like him there because I like him with the ball in his hands.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:36 PM
DC always gets torn up on defense, I don't evaluate that when I'm talking about his game performance :laugh:

Thats not fair thats the most important part of game that and his assits more importanly how he runs the offense. Which are down when I thought they would be improving under Vogel.

I wish they would put eveyones shooting stats on the score board like they do at the Bradley Center.

Kuq_e_Zi91
03-01-2011, 10:38 PM
2 games behind the Sixers in the loss column. 4 behind the Knicks.

Going 2-1 on this west coast trip would be huge because the Sixers have the Wolves and the Warriors in that span.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:41 PM
Sookie Paul actually moved a lot without the ball 2 nite. I was surprised it didnt amount to any scores for him but he cut a lot more 2 nite

Sookie
03-01-2011, 10:41 PM
I still like Lance more at the one. His talents center around him dribbling the ball, and I think he's worthless when you ask him to hang around the three point line away from the ball to be a catch and shoot guy.

I'm not arguing that he can't be a 2, but so far I'm not even close to convinced that he is not good enough to play the one, and again as long as that is the case, I like him there because I like him with the ball in his hands.

He needs to be a ball dominant 2.

I agree, Lance needs to the ball in his hands to be effective. That doesn't mean he's a point guard.

But he also needs to be looking to score, not run an offense. Which is why CDash and I say that playing him with a point like Price, who can run an offense off the ball, and pick and choose when Lance gets the ball, is actually best.

Playing him with a guy like Dun, who also can essentially run an offense without the ball, would be fine too..on offense. Defense on the other hand..

BringJackBack
03-01-2011, 10:41 PM
I thought Lance was a better point guard than a shooting guard.. Made good passes and just got things done. He sure as hell can get wherever he wants on the court. Two years or so of polish and this kid will be very good for us. If he'd get some damn foul calls and hit some bunnies than he'd have like 10-12 points.. I love his passes to our bigs on the break too. They do a great job of running the floor, including Hibbert, and they don't ever get rewarded by our other point guards.

Mid range, attacking the basket, great court vision, capable and potential point guard defense, and he doesn't really seem to lack FOCUS on the court like so many of our guys do. In two-three years if he doesn't do any dumb ****.. :drool:

kester99
03-01-2011, 10:42 PM
The Pacers started out really well, built an early lead, had 5 assists on 5 baskets...were looking really good. When we went to Lance at point we threw a piece in that the team wasn't used to. The chemistry faltered, the guys started getting out of their offense. It ultimately led to that 21-1 run GS had.

When we finally regained our composure, we regained the lead and held it. We faltered here and there a bit after that, but in general, we kept our heads together better in the second half.

What all that says to me is that our offense under Vogel is still too easily discombobulated. Adjusting to putting our own new guy in threw us off badly for a bit. It's a sign of a young team, with a new coach. We'll get better as we go, less likely to get frazzled and lose focus.

On a side note...too much playing off the 3 point shooters, even after they hit three in a row. Looking at you, Dahntay.

I also thought Lance looked better at the point, but it's way too early to tell where he'll fit in.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 10:42 PM
Sookie Paul actually moved a lot without the ball 2 nite. I was surprised it didnt amount to any scores for him but he cut a lot more 2 nite

I noticed that too. I'd have to pay attention to see if he's moving to just move (Brandon does this), or actually has some purpose too it, but I definitely noticed he was more active.

TinManJoshua
03-01-2011, 10:43 PM
Dahntay Jones took 6 shots, and hit three of them. Two he missed he went to the line for, where he missed only one free throw.

Why are we scapegoating somebody who performed well in a WIN?

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:44 PM
The DG iso in the post worked 2 nite first time all year he played really good in the iso to close the game.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 10:45 PM
Thats not fair thats the most important part of game that and his assits more importanly how he runs the offense. Which are down when I thought they would be improving under Vogel.

I wish they would put eveyones shooting stats on the score board like they do at the Bradley Center.

But then you'd have to say he played crappy in all of the games.

Team assists are important. But an offense running well is so much more important for a PG than tallying his assists.

edit: this "iso" was different. It was a post up..not a "Danny gets the ball at the three point line and we tell him to go" kind of iso.

Merz
03-01-2011, 10:51 PM
I would love it if the Goon Squad included a guy like Reggie Williams who could get hot and hit 25-footers. That to go with the hustle of Foster and Hans and the D and in between play of George would be nice.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:52 PM
But then you'd have to say he played crappy in all of the games.

Team assists are important. But an offense running well is so much more important for a PG than tallying his assists.

edit: this "iso" was different. It was a post up..not a "Danny gets the ball at the three point line and we tell him to go" kind of iso.

It isnt really post iso he still gets it near the 3pt line but goes into a post down move and still tries to et to he rim. It is what we noramly call DG on one side of the court pg up topand 3 others on the other side of the court. this time we just excuted. Some times we do give it to Danny at the top of the key and run PnR or just plain iso to close games which is normay a disater.

righteouscool
03-01-2011, 10:54 PM
I really hope Lance can develop a 3 point shot. From what i've seen he will have no problem getting to the rim. If he can just develop a long range shot he could be a good shooting guard. I don't think he should play anything but spot minutes at point.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 10:56 PM
I like Lance at the SG with a pass first point guard who can shoot. Just like Tyreke has in SAC with Beno Udrith.

presto123
03-01-2011, 11:04 PM
Josh played a good game. I think he's getting over-looked in all this guard talk. LOL! He found Roy a lot although half the time Roy wasn't ready to catch. Love Josh's hustle when he literally dove on the floor and called the timeout.

BlueNGold
03-01-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm with Hicks thinking that Lance has a shot to be a PG. He can use his length, body and ability to dish along the same lines as Magic Johnson. Not comparing him the Magic otherwise. ...and so far, I'm not impressed with him at the 2. This is a significant change in my viewpoint btw.

I am still not convinced he can defend it, because he looks to be about as quick as Sarunas. But he is taller and much longer and that might be enough. If the team has strong defenders at the other positions, he might be fine there. He will totally abuse small PG's in some instances and with his ability to dish he may rack up assists. Yes, I've kind of came full circle on him. Let's just hope he doesn't get the attention of IMPD...

Edit: BTW, I'm sure he can play some SG. I just think a Paul George-like player will be better at the two in terms of stretching the floor. Yes, I said it...;<)

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 11:07 PM
Dahntay Jones took 6 shots, and hit three of them. Two he missed he went to the line for, where he missed only one free throw.

Why are we scapegoating somebody who performed well in a WIN?

he took 2 good shots. Im happy they go in but ask Indyhoya who sits next to me. I go NOOO Dantay and he chucks up a bad shot which noramly go in when I say no Dantay. I dont think he knows he is allowed to pass.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 11:09 PM
I'm with Hicks thinking that Lance has a shot to be a PG. He can use his length, body and ability to dish along the same lines as Magic Johnson. Not comparing him the Magic otherwise. ...and so far, I'm not impressed with him at the 2. This is a significant change in my viewpoint btw.

I am still not convinced he can defend it, because he looks to be about as quick as Sarunas. But he is taller and much longer and that might be enough. If the team has strong defenders at the other positions, he might be fine there. He will totally abuse small PG's in some instances and with his ability to dish he may rack up assists. Yes, I've kind of came full circle on him. Let's just hope he doesn't get the attention of IMPD...

I get nervous every time the Pacemates come out in the black stripper like attire that someting bad might happen lol.

presto123
03-01-2011, 11:11 PM
Lance definitely has some skills. I think he's still a little wide eyed and overwhelmed to be on the floor still. Should improve once he settles down a bit. How many minutes did he get tonight?

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 11:12 PM
Lance definitely has some skills. I think he's still a little wide eyed and overwhelmed to be on the floor still. Should improve once he settles down a bit. How many minutes did he get tonight?

14

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 11:12 PM
We should be fresh for 2mrw no one played over 34 mins

BlueNGold
03-01-2011, 11:14 PM
For the record, I think we played GS better with Vogel at the helm. We lost the last time out and down the stretch GS ran over us. This time, the tables were turned. The team is playing better with Vogel and tonight was a good example.

presto123
03-01-2011, 11:16 PM
14


Hopefully he continues to get at least that much. AJ Price is the main player that hasn't impressed me much lately.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 11:17 PM
I noticed that too. I'd have to pay attention to see if he's moving to just move (Brandon does this), or actually has some purpose too it, but I definitely noticed he was more active.

He made a few good cuts and was open and Dc and Roy and Lance and a few others just missed him. But he moved more without the ball 2nite than the rest of the season combined.

TinManJoshua
03-01-2011, 11:26 PM
he took 2 good shots. Im happy they go in but ask Indyhoya who sits next to me. I go NOOO Dantay and he chucks up a bad shot which noramly go in when I say no Dantay. I dont think he knows he is allowed to pass.

So he took two good shots, two shots with intent of just getting to the line. That leaves two "bad" shots, one of which he hit.

I still fail to see this glutton of bad shots he took tonight that has so many claiming tonight is the night that they can no longer tolerate him in the rotation.

I don't even like Dahntay, I just don't think he was nearly as bad as he's been painted tonight.

Kid Minneapolis
03-01-2011, 11:28 PM
- Hibbert did what I wish he'd *always* do --- focus on defense, blocks, assist, and doing the little things, picking his spots on offense but mainly feeding everyone else.
- Granger did what I wish he'd *always* do --- take it to the hole and get to the free throw line ---- 16 times. And he didn't miss.

When those two do that, our whole team does better. Only prob is, they rarely seem to do that, especially simultaneously.

I wish Collison had Rajon Rondo's mentality. Collison seems more interested in his own shot... I'd love to see him focus on feeding others 90% of the time. I'd love to see Collison at 10+ assists per game --- not 1 assist in like 30 mins. Let the others score, DC, and you focus on assists and steals and playing good D. Thing is, I think he's completely capable of 10+ assists a game if he just stopped focusing on his own shot all the time.

If we could convince those three to play like that all of the time, we have ourselves a Big 3, and a strong core.

Our supporting cast is outstanding... this 3-year plan, say what you want, has stockpiled us with good players top to bottom. We field 2 entire 5-man rotations that could arguably go toe-to-toe with most starting line-ups on most nights (may not win, but would at least make a game of it).

PG has looked lackadaisical lately, but came to life in the 3rd/4th. I love our PFs. Lance looks like he could be real good once he catches up to the NBA game and settles down.

CableKC
03-01-2011, 11:31 PM
Dahntay Jones took 6 shots, and hit three of them. Two he missed he went to the line for, where he missed only one free throw.

Why are we scapegoating somebody who performed well in a WIN?
Easy...cuz he's not PG or Lance and Inferno only takes up their minutes. I'm not disagreeing with you...that's just the way that I see how everyone views Inferno. For me, I think that Inferno is a situational SG that works in some situations and doesn't work in others.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 11:36 PM
So he took two good shots, two shots with intent of just getting to the line. That leaves two "bad" shots, one of which he hit.

I still fail to see this glutton of bad shots he took tonight that has so many claiming tonight is the night that they can no longer tolerate him in the rotation.

I don't even like Dahntay, I just don't think he was nearly as bad as he's been painted tonight.

Im just gonna leave it at this I wish him and Rush switched mentalitys. Rush would proably ave 20ppg and Dahtay would be the perfect role player. When Dantay is good he is really good when he is bad he thinks he is really good one thing is for sure he doesnt lack confidence. I like him as a siuational guy playing vs certin players for defensive purposes like Monta Elills he is a decent role player.

TinManJoshua
03-01-2011, 11:41 PM
Im just gonna leave it at this I wish him and Rush switched mentalitys. Rush would proably ave 20ppg and Dahtay would be the perfect role player. When Dantay is good he is really good when he is bad he thinks he is really good one thing is for sure he doesnt lack confidence. I like him as a siuational guy playing vs certin players for defensive purposes like Monta Elills he is a decent role player.

I agree with that, but I don't like the idea of tearing down one player to build up others.

Nothing about DJ's game tonight earned him the scrutiny he's gotten in this thread, that's all.

BRushWithDeath
03-01-2011, 11:45 PM
So he took two good shots, two shots with intent of just getting to the line. That leaves two "bad" shots, one of which he hit.

I still fail to see this glutton of bad shots he took tonight that has so many claiming tonight is the night that they can no longer tolerate him in the rotation.

I don't even like Dahntay, I just don't think he was nearly as bad as he's been painted tonight.

You know shots attempted which result in fouls don't count as attempts right?

So 4-6 were bad shots.

ziplockfresh
03-01-2011, 11:52 PM
I really think Lance should be a point. He easily fights through screens and he's got a quick first step which surprises everyone.

imawhat
03-02-2011, 01:15 AM
It's way too early either way, but Lance has done nothing to prove he isn't a point guard. This is ridiculous, imo, and he was basically written off by some before he stepped on the floor. If Lance doesn't have a shot at being a point guard, then neither do Darren or AJ.

Both Darren and AJ should have their own numbers on speed dial, since they're calling it so often.

I think Lance was our best point guard tonight, again. The defense finds a way to get out of position when he has the ball. And because of that, and his height, he sets his teammates up really easily. And on top of that, he puts the ball on the "right" side of the floor to set up plays.

jcouts
03-02-2011, 01:23 AM
late comment (per usual) and I haven't read most of the thread (per usual), and I only got to watch about 1 quarter of the game (also per usual), but one thing that I noticed on Lance in the 3rd that I know he'll adjust to was going under the screens...he'll quickly learn that he can't do that against guys like Monte...other than that, I loved the effect he had on the game while he was in...the guy is going to be a beast at PG or SG that no one in the league can push around on defense or easily defend. He knows how to make space on the offensive end with his shoulders...it's going to go a long way.

Tyler looked like he had an injected dose of confidence from his brother's play last night (anyone else see him in the stands at the ND game?)...he looked to be the Tyler of the successful run of late.

do tell, did Danny decide to play defense tonight? that was my biggest hope

Paul seemed to respond well to the "message" of Lance getting some of his PT from the highlights I saw...confirmations?

birdsandbats
03-02-2011, 02:22 AM
I think Lance played awesome, when was the last time Indy consistently had a player that could break down the defender 1v1 and get to the paint? For those who say DC and AJ should be pass first, it is just not in them, you can tell. You need to have really good vision and awareness of where your big men are, whereas those two pretty much only know where the big that set the screen is and maybe 1 shooter on the 3 point line. If Lance is gonna be a big part of the future it would be efficient to play him at the point. That way we can have a huge lineup with 2 swingmen around him and PF and C since he can create for himself/others (a point guard's main job anyways). Only problem is will he get tired defending the 1 with more minutes? Dunno but at least he did well on Curry when he was in taking him to the weight room. P.S. PG also saved us today. That dude has some good ball skills,

Taterhead
03-02-2011, 02:46 AM
I really think Lance should be a point. He easily fights through screens and he's got a quick first step which surprises everyone.

I agree, he is a PG. No doubt in my mind.

The 4 main things that I want in my PG:

1. Court Vision. He must be a threat no matter where he is on the court.

I want a guy that can take a rebound and go 94 ft with the dribble and find scoring opportunities. Lance can do that for sure, that's his game. When he turns it on in the open floor it is impressive to say the least. He has another gear that most players just don't have, especially with the dribble. He can really put pressure on the defense. I like that. And he is the type of guy who's game doesn't fit in college nearly as well as it does in the NBA. The NBA rules are set up for a guy like Lance to have a feast.

2. To be able to handle pressure defense and apply pressure defense.

I don't understand the criticism about his defense really. I think people just see him get caught on a screen on occasion and instantly label him a bad defender. Everybody gets screened. That is where team defense comes in. The Pacers teams of the mid nineties had a lot of awkward athletes who were below average defenders, but they more than made up for it with team work. Lance is 10x the athlete Mark Jackson was. I actually think Lance is pretty solid on defense already and will be a great defender in time. He'll eventually figure out how to use his size to his advantage. He is long enough to give them some space and still challenge shots effectively. This is actually where his size and unique length for the position is his biggest advantage, and a big plus for us as a team. He is incredibly long for a PG. He gives us great flexibility on defense schematically. His size also makes him a more effective help defender than a guy like Collison, who is usually the smallest guy on the floor.

3. To be able to create his own shot while still playing unselfish basketball.

Lance has very good court vision. And that is something I don't think people around here talk about much or value enough. You just don't see 20 year old PG's very often that have the kind of court vision he has. Whenever he has the ball he has his head up looking down court and he is trying to put pressure on the defense. And he is more than a willing passer. I would much rather Lance have the ball in his hands and let him create than go through one of our patented 12 pass possessions where we don't even wind up with a good shot.

It's not just about assisting buckets, it's about creating offense. Lance can do that. He is impossible to keep out of the lane and he can finish much better than he showed tonight. He has a herky jerky style that throws opponents off balance allowing him to get by them, and that puts his team mates in better position to score because Lance is such a huge match up problem. He is a real physical presence on the court too. He kind of threw a shoulder into Amundson going for a loose ball tonight and it was quite effective. I like the fact our PG can do that to a fairly rugged PF. Little things like that are so under rated. Basketball is a competition, and many things play into it. You have to show the other team you are there to win, not just make the most shots.

4. He has to be able to execute in transition and in the half court.

I think anything offensively you could possible want out of a PG, Lance can do really well. The guy is 20 years old and has not embarrassed himself one bit so far against very good competition at his position. I think that is pretty impressive considering he has sat all year and isn't even old enough to legally have a drink. His defense needs some work but that will come in time, and he shows potential there. He has played like less than 20 minutes so far. But he has me pretty excited about seeing him some more.


I think Lance played awesome, when was the last time Indy consistently had a player that could break down the defender 1v1 and get to the paint? For those who say DC and AJ should be pass first, it is just not in them, you can tell. You need to have really good vision and awareness of where your big men are, whereas those two pretty much only know where the big that set the screen is and maybe 1 shooter on the 3 point line. If Lance is gonna be a big part of the future it would be efficient to play him at the point. That way we can have a huge lineup with 2 swingmen around him and PF and C since he can create for himself/others (a point guard's main job anyways). Only problem is will he get tired defending the 1 with more minutes? Dunno but at least he did well on Curry when he was in taking him to the weight room. P.S. PG also saved us today. That dude has some good ball skills,

I agree, Lance is a very unique talent. He puts us in a position to become a really BIG team. We got a skilled 7'2" center and a really long and legit 6'8" wing player who has great size for either spot as well. We can cause some people problems with our size down the road when these guys get some experience.

birdsandbats
03-02-2011, 02:57 AM
Another random thing I noticed while watching was that Udoh and Lin are their goon squad. Man they have a ton of energy and play good D. Lin has really good IQ and hands and man Udoh is long. No one else on GS plays any defense.

TheDon
03-02-2011, 03:53 AM
Here's my thoughts about the game

Lance I think did a decent job at the point for only having played his 2nd game and collectively hasn't even cracked 20 total minutes in his entire career yet. He sure looked like he belonged out there though and then some and that's very impressive. He does look like he can get absolutely anywhere he wants to and was very impressed and practically in awe watching him get to the rim with ease. The other thing that was mentioned earlier in this thread is that it will benefit him greatly to develop a 3pt shot at some point probably not this season but something he could work at in the offseason. Didn't he shoot something abysmal like 22% from the 3pt line in college? Once people get him scouted out I have a feeling that people are just going to back off of him and dare him to take a shot at a distance and after that starts happening it will be interesting to see how he adjusts.

The other thing with people dogging on Dahntay Jones about his passing to me I'm not completely sold on the fact that he's doing it as a "me-me-me" sort of thing. I've wondered if he's gotten like that from obie benching him that he's just trying to make the most of the minutes he gets so he doesn't end up getting benched again. If I were vogel I'd at least discuss it with him. Like sookie said if he would just learn to pass he'd be a really really really good role player.

Also last thing just sort of a woo-hoo is Roy's block was on sportscenters top 10 it was either 3 or 4 I think I can't remember definately in the top 5. I thought that was pretty surprising that just a block made it that high. Oh well yay for some publicity.

tough game tomorrow I would like to steal one from them as long as Westbrook just doesn't explode for a bazillion points and assists like he did when he tore apart Collison and TJ back in November, i'd say we have a punchers chance.

GO PACERS!

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 06:25 AM
I agree, he is a PG. No doubt in my mind.

The 4 main things that I want in my PG:

1. Court Vision. He must be a threat no matter where he is on the court.

I want a guy that can take a rebound and go 94 ft with the dribble and find scoring opportunities. Lance can do that for sure, that's his game. When he turns it on in the open floor it is impressive to say the least. He has another gear that most players just don't have, especially with the dribble. He can really put pressure on the defense. I like that. And he is the type of guy who's game doesn't fit in college nearly as well as it does in the NBA. The NBA rules are set up for a guy like Lance to have a feast.

2. To be able to handle pressure defense and apply pressure defense.

I don't understand the criticism about his defense really. I think people just see him get caught on a screen on occasion and instantly label him a bad defender. Everybody gets screened. That is where team defense comes in. The Pacers teams of the mid nineties had a lot of awkward athletes who were below average defenders, but they more than made up for it with team work. Lance is 10x the athlete Mark Jackson was. I actually think Lance is pretty solid on defense already and will be a great defender in time. He'll eventually figure out how to use his size to his advantage. He is long enough to give them some space and still challenge shots effectively. This is actually where his size and unique length for the position is his biggest advantage, and a big plus for us as a team. He is incredibly long for a PG. He gives us great flexibility on defense schematically. His size also makes him a more effective help defender than a guy like Collison, who is usually the smallest guy on the floor.

3. To be able to create his own shot while still playing unselfish basketball.

Lance has very good court vision. And that is something I don't think people around here talk about much or value enough. You just don't see 20 year old PG's very often that have the kind of court vision he has. Whenever he has the ball he has his head up looking down court and he is trying to put pressure on the defense. And he is more than a willing passer. I would much rather Lance have the ball in his hands and let him create than go through one of our patented 12 pass possessions where we don't even wind up with a good shot.

It's not just about assisting buckets, it's about creating offense. Lance can do that. He is impossible to keep out of the lane and he can finish much better than he showed tonight. He has a herky jerky style that throws opponents off balance allowing him to get by them, and that puts his team mates in better position to score because Lance is such a huge match up problem. He is a real physical presence on the court too. He kind of threw a shoulder into Amundson going for a loose ball tonight and it was quite effective. I like the fact our PG can do that to a fairly rugged PF. Little things like that are so under rated. Basketball is a competition, and many things play into it. You have to show the other team you are there to win, not just make the most shots.

4. He has to be able to execute in transition and in the half court.

I think anything offensively you could possible want out of a PG, Lance can do really well. The guy is 20 years old and has not embarrassed himself one bit so far against very good competition at his position. I think that is pretty impressive considering he has sat all year and isn't even old enough to legally have a drink. His defense needs some work but that will come in time, and he shows potential there. He has played like less than 20 minutes so far. But he has me pretty excited about seeing him some more.



I agree, Lance is a very unique talent. He puts us in a position to become a really BIG team. We got a skilled 7'2" center and a really long and legit 6'8" wing player who has great size for either spot as well. We can cause some people problems with our size down the road when these guys get some experience.

Great, great post that I'm even going to keep for future reference.. I'll add some things too:

1.) How can Lance be dogged for his defense when Darren Collison's is 2x worse?

2.) He's very, very good at the pick n roll. He had a nice little crossover that was extremely quick and it was very easy for him to pull up.

3.) If the refs would just give him the calls than he'd have 10-12 points.

4.) If he's slow footed like a lot of people have said, than everyone on our team are slow as turtles because he's the quickest guy on the team. I noticed last night that he has a dizzying first step.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 06:35 AM
I like Lance at the SG with a pass first point guard who can shoot. Just like Tyreke has in SAC with Beno Udrith.

I think Lance has better court vision and defense than Tyreke though, which is what we lack at point guard.

Of course Tyreke is 2-3x a better scorer though..

McKeyFan
03-02-2011, 07:03 AM
Lance is a very unique talent. He puts us in a position to become a really BIG team. We got a skilled 7'2" center and a really long and legit 6'8" wing player who has great size for either spot as well. We can cause some people problems with our size down the road when these guys get some experience.

Roy 7'2"
Josh 6'10"
Danny 6'8"
PG 6'8"
Lance 6'5"

Interesting.

(That's from the official website, but I think you could give Josh and Danny another inch.)

McKeyFan
03-02-2011, 07:05 AM
Also last thing just sort of a woo-hoo is Roy's block was on sportscenters top 10 it was either 3 or 4 I think I can't remember definately in the top 5. I thought that was pretty surprising that just a block made it that high. Oh well yay for some publicity.
That makes me very happy.

glazedham42
03-02-2011, 07:52 AM
I think the Roy block was so popular since he did the Dikembe finger wave afterwards. If any other player did this I would think it was tacky. But Roy, being a Georgetown alum like Mutombo, I say go for it. When Roy does the finger wave it just looks right. He has the monstrous wing span like Mutombo did. I also think it's cool that Roy has respect for where he came from, and knows the history of the game.

KevinB
03-02-2011, 08:18 AM
I love the potential matchup issues that Lance creates. We are consistantly overpowered at the pg position, and it creates major problems. I think that is why I like Lance at the point. He potentially gives us a player that has a considerable matchup advantage on a nightly basis. I can't remember the last time we, as Pacer fans, have been able to say this. I'm really looking forward to seeing him matchup with Westbrook. It was clear that he had no problem abusing our smaller guards, and will be interesting to see if Lance's strength can slow him down.

Unclebuck
03-02-2011, 08:43 AM
I think it a little to early declare Lance anything.

vnzla81
03-02-2011, 08:54 AM
I think it a little to early declare Lance anything.

So nobody should talk about him?

Unclebuck
03-02-2011, 09:02 AM
So nobody should talk about him?


I just see many on here drawing conclusions about whether he's a true point guard, or more of a point guard than Darren and AJ........We've seen him play two games. he's looked good. he has an NBA body and has good talent. I think making any other conclusions than he has a real chance to be good is jumpiong the gun.

DrFife
03-02-2011, 09:04 AM
Roy 7'2"
Josh 6'10"
Danny 6'8"
PG 6'8"
Lance 6'5"

Interesting.

(That's from the official website, but I think you could give Josh and Danny another inch.)

Indeed; Larry has said he values size. (He had to be squirming during all of our small-ball.)

(Please, no all-too-obvious "That's what she said!" replies.)

McKeyFan
03-02-2011, 09:36 AM
I think it a little to early declare Lance anything.

<a href="http://s449.photobucket.com/albums/qq215/DeanArnold/?action=view&amp;current=pic_mean_teacher.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq215/DeanArnold/pic_mean_teacher.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

naptownmenace
03-02-2011, 09:37 AM
I love the potential matchup issues that Lance creates. We are consistantly overpowered at the pg position, and it creates major problems. I think that is why I like Lance at the point. He potentially gives us a player that has a considerable matchup advantage on a nightly basis. I can't remember the last time we, as Pacer fans, have been able to say this. I'm really looking forward to seeing him matchup with Westbrook. It was clear that he had no problem abusing our smaller guards, and will be interesting to see if Lance's strength can slow him down.

They should be working with him on his post moves so that if they intend to use him as a PG, they can use him the way they used to use Mark Jackson and Jalen Rose when he played guard.

beast23
03-02-2011, 09:37 AM
I just see many on here drawing conclusions about whether he's a true point guard, or more of a point guard than Darren and AJ........We've seen him play two games. he's looked good. he has an NBA body and has good talent. I think making any other conclusions than he has a real chance to be good is jumpiong the gun.I've been a bit busy lately in the evenings and have missed the games that Lance has played. I've seen bits and pieces but not much of Lance.

If I believed half the stuff I've read on here regarding Lance, I would have to conclude that he's the second coming of Christ and that Vogel is an absolute idiot for not inserting him in the starting lineup.

But then I've already formed the opinion that Vogel is no fool. And I know that Stephenson does not yet have the experience to consistently swim in deep water, let alone walk on it.

Therefore, my only rational conclusion is that some folks simply fall in love with the latest thing... the one thing they have been waiting all season to see... and that is Stephenson finally playing.

Since86
03-02-2011, 09:37 AM
So he took two good shots, two shots with intent of just getting to the line. That leaves two "bad" shots, one of which he hit.

I still fail to see this glutton of bad shots he took tonight that has so many claiming tonight is the night that they can no longer tolerate him in the rotation.

I don't even like Dahntay, I just don't think he was nearly as bad as he's been painted tonight.

So you're saying that you think DJones actually does pass?

No one is "scapegoating" him. They're making an observation that when he touches the ball, a shot is going to be put up most of the time. And a good portion of the time, it's going to be a bad shot.

He's a chucker. He's always been a chucker, and he will always continue to be a chucker. That's not always a good thing, and it's not always a bad thing.

But one thing you can count on a chucker to do, is chuck the ball.

Mackey_Rose
03-02-2011, 09:40 AM
One thing I was really disappointed with last night was how Darren Collison reacted to the token pressure that Golden State put on him. It completely took him out of his game, and conversely killed the entire offense.

Jeremy Lin absolutely ruined him. Lin is a hard worker, but nobody is going to confuse him for Gary Payton. If last night was the only time you had seen him play, you might though.

If Collison is going to be the kind of point guard most people around here seem to think he can be, that kind of full court pressure should play right into his hands. We should have been taking advantage of their aggressiveness and getting lay-ups at the other end. Instead, we struggled to get the ball up the court, and once we did usually only had about 15 seconds to work with on the shot clock by the time we finally got into our set.

There was a thread a couple weeks ago about how to "uncork" Josh McRoberts. I think the main idea behind that thread was to ask about how we could get more scoring out of him. Well trying to turn him into a scorer is not the best way to utilize his unique talent. Last night was the perfect opportunity to use him, but we never really did except for one play late in the 4th quarter that resulted in a dunk for Brandon Rush.

If Collison is going to struggle while dealing with pressure (that wasn't the first time he has either) he would be better off just passing it back to Josh, after getting the inbound pass, and clearing out. Let Josh handle the ball up the court. There is not a power forward in the league capable of putting enough ball pressure, the whole length of the floor, to bother him.

I expect (if OKC's coaches bothered to watch tape from last night) that Westbrook will be putting similar full court pressure on Collison tonight. If he deals with it as poorly as he did against a much worse athlete, in Lin, then we could be in big trouble. An easy solution would be to let Josh take it up against either Ibaka or Nick Collison. Neither player will be able to keep him in front of them for 94 feet. It will get us points on the other end when guys have to help and he can find his open teammates.

He's better at that than all of our "point guards" anyway.

Since86
03-02-2011, 09:40 AM
I just see many on here drawing conclusions about whether he's a true point guard, or more of a point guard than Darren and AJ........We've seen him play two games. he's looked good. he has an NBA body and has good talent. I think making any other conclusions than he has a real chance to be good is jumpiong the gun.

Didn't you call Frank "cocky" after his first press conference?

naptownmenace
03-02-2011, 09:44 AM
So you're saying that you think DJones actually does pass?

No one is "scapegoating" him. They're making an observation that when he touches the ball, a shot is going to be put up most of the time. And a good portion of the time, it's going to be a bad shot.

He's a chucker. He's always been a chucker, and he will always continue to be a chucker. That's not always a good thing, and it's not always a bad thing.

But one thing you can count on a chucker to do, is chuck the ball.

I can't disagree with that at all. However, I think that this is the role he has been given. He has been consistently scoring at about a 50% clip too so I can understanstand why he's been so aggressive. I wish Brandon would play more aggressively on the offensive end as well but since he doesn't, that leaves PG and Dhantay as pretty much the only 2 players that consistently attack the basket when they get the ball.

In a lot of ways, I think Brandon would be better coming off the bench and Dhantay Jones starting. I think that it would balance out the starting lineup and reserves quite a bit. With Dhantay in the starting lineup it could take some of the scoring pressure off of Danny and Roy and it gives the opposing defense one more athletic player to have to focus on.

docpaul
03-02-2011, 09:50 AM
One thing I was really disappointed with last night was how Darren Collison reacted to the token pressure that Golden State put on him. It completely took him out of his game, and conversely killed the entire offense.

Jeremy Lin absolutely ruined him. Lin is a hard worker, but nobody is going to confuse him for Gary Payton. If last night was the only time you had seen him play, you might though.

If Collison is going to be the kind of point guard most people around here seem to think he can be, that kind of full court pressure should play right into his hands. We should have been taking advantage of their aggressiveness and getting lay-ups at the other end. Instead, we struggled to get the ball up the court, and once we did usually only had about 15 seconds to work with on the shot clock by the time we finally got into our set.

There was a thread a couple weeks ago about how to "uncork" Josh McRoberts. I think the main idea behind that thread was to ask about how we could get more scoring out of him. Well trying to turn him into a scorer is not the best way to utilize his unique talent. Last night was the perfect opportunity to use him, but we never really did except for one play late in the 4th quarter that resulted in a dunk for Brandon Rush.

If Collison is going to struggle while dealing with pressure (that wasn't the first time he has either) he would be better off just passing it back to Josh, after getting the inbound pass, and clearing out. Let Josh handle the ball up the court. There is not a power forward in the league capable of putting enough ball pressure, the whole length of the floor, to bother him.

I expect (if OKC's coaches bothered to watch tape from last night) that Westbrook will be putting similar full court pressure on Collison tonight. If he deals with it as poorly as he did against a much worse athlete, in Lin, then we could be in big trouble. An easy solution would be to let Josh take it up against either Ibaka or Nick Collison. Neither player will be able to keep him in front of them for 94 feet. It will get us points on the other end when guys have to help and he can find his open teammates.

He's better at that than all of our "point guards" anyway.

There's no question that McRoberts bailed DC out at least twice last night. And looked good doing so.

Unclebuck
03-02-2011, 10:04 AM
Didn't you call Frank "cocky" after his first press conference?


LOL, yes I did, although I didn't conclude that he was cocky, I just said that he was cocky in his iopening press conference.

more seriously, I think there needs to be a little caution especially with young player that have only played two games as far as drawing conclusions like I think I have read in this thread. JMO

Since86
03-02-2011, 10:09 AM
I can't disagree with that at all. However, I think that this is the role he has been given.

I don't think so, especially when Vogel makes the statement "we don't take bad shots anymore."

When the shots are falling, they're a lot easier to live with. But there's a reason why DJones has never been a consistent starter, even with his defensive abilities.

His pull up jumpers off the dribble need to go. If he catches the ball at 15-20ft and he's open, take the shot. If he can get to the rim, then go.

But him creating his own shot off the dribble, will be a bad shot for him 9 out of 10 times. That's not his game, even if he hits it.

MagicRat
03-02-2011, 10:12 AM
I think it a little to early declare Lance anything.

I've already declared him a cross between Jamaal Artest and Ron Tinsley and I'm sticking with it.

Since86
03-02-2011, 10:12 AM
LOL, yes I did, although I didn't conclude that he was cocky, I just said that he was cocky in his iopening press conference.

more seriously, I think there needs to be a little caution especially with young player that have only played two games as far as drawing conclusions like I think I have read in this thread. JMO

I don't think anyone is drawing conclusions, rather than merely stating an opinion on what they've seen so far.

Clearly you see the difference, when you use that same reasoning as to why you made the comment about Frank.

I mean, p4e has made the boldest statement out of all when he said Lance should be getting 10mins a game. 10 minutes, and Sookie automatically said hang on for a little bit......

vnzla81
03-02-2011, 10:32 AM
I just see many on here drawing conclusions about whether he's a true point guard, or more of a point guard than Darren and AJ........We've seen him play two games. he's looked good. he has an NBA body and has good talent. I think making any other conclusions than he has a real chance to be good is jumpiong the gun.

I don't see anything wrong with people scouting our own players, we do this for college players before the draft, I don't know but I haven't seen anybody saying to start him and that he is the answer.

HickeyS2000
03-02-2011, 10:35 AM
I don't think anyone is drawing conclusions, rather than merely stating an opinion on what they've seen so far.

Clearly you see the difference, when you use that same reasoning as to why you made the comment about Frank.

I mean, p4e has made the boldest statement out of all when he said Lance should be getting 10mins a game. 10 minutes, and Sookie automatically said hang on for a little bit......

I'm ready to draw conclusions and agree with p4e. The kid is gonna be good, you can see it. He was making moves only the best guards in this league make in his second game. His shot chart was as good as anyone on the team and although his shots didn't fall, he created most of those attempts himself. No one else on the team right now can consistently do that. George can get his shot but he doesn't set him teammates up enough yet. Lance seems like he can and is willing to distribute already. He could have had 15 points if he would have made a few of those bunnies. Throw in the bonus of his defense not looking bad and I start drawing these conclusions.

It's obvious why everyone within the Pacers organization is high on him. It's obvious to some of us too. Athletic players who are big for their position, can create and distribute for others is a recipe for success in this league and one that Lance possesses. I say throw him to the sharks with 10 min at PG and 10 min at SG per game.

Now off to pray he is not Artest 2.0.

xIndyFan
03-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Call me crazy but Lance was the best pg 2nite lol. He couldnt finish like he normaly does but he played better than he did vs PHX.


I still like Lance more at the one. . . I'm not arguing that he can't be a 2, but so far I'm not even close to convinced that he is not good enough to play the one. . .


I thought Lance was a better point guard than a shooting guard.


. . . I also thought Lance looked better at the point, but it's way too early to tell where he'll fit in.


It's way too early either way, but Lance has done nothing to prove he isn't a point guard.


I agree, he is a PG. No doubt in my mind.

i agree with these. lance looked like a PG. don't know how it looked on TV, but at the game, he looked like the guy in charge when he had the ball. not to say he can't be a 2, most points can. but to say lance cannot be a PG is silly.

i was almost giddy during the game at how good lance looked. kudo's to frank vogel for getting him ready to play before putting him in the game. DC, AJ and/or brandon better step up their game cause lance will be taking playing time from some or all of them sooner or later. :happydanc :dance:

BillS
03-02-2011, 10:54 AM
Quoting folks for points rather than starting a whole new post:


I'm glad we won....but how many "ugly" wins are we going to have?

Lots, and wins we get in this upcoming road trip are going to be REALLY ugly. Swapping people around after training camp, even when it is the right thing to do, is always going to get disruptive and look nasty - there just isn't enough practice time to develop the smoothness. With any luck it will smooth out if used consistently during play, but that is NOT the optimal way to do it because the opposition will also be inconsistent and you don't have time to instinctively ingrain the "right" way to do things.

We ain't got the juice to worry about whether wins are purty, we just should worry about wins period.


Roy was on this game, really, passing scoring everything. We do need to find away to help him get the ball when he's posted up.

I respect your observations, but where did you get this? He was 5-12 but the numbers don't reflect that a lot of those misses were the same old thing (hesitating once the ball came into his hands and being unable to get back into position for the shot). The thing I noticed was that there was more movement on/to the strong side so that he had someone to pass to early, but he didn't always take advantage.

Low post should be your highest probability shooting, and I don't think Roy takes advantage of it enough still.

Now, in the third (I think it was), Tyler got the ball just outside the post (in what I consider Roy's "out of position") and I wished I had a film of it. He began moving right away, was doubled just due to help across the lane, amnd when the triple came he was able to turn and split the defenders for a face-up point-blank shot that scored. While Roy isn't ever going to be that agile, NOT standing with the ball while the defenders can take position would give him a lot more opportunities to get around or over his defenders.


Lance looks right at the SG spot. He missed some bunnies, but I think that was a combo of nerves and being tired.

I think he was tired, and I was very concerned that Vogel gave him so many minutes - especially since his time at the 2 coincided with the beginning of the change in momentum. Peck pointed out, though, that some of this might simply be saving other guys' minutes for the stretch ahead, and I can't argue with that.

I think so far Lance seems competent - which is NOT a dig at him, that is in and of itself hard enough to show on an NBA court. He has had a couple of very nice moves, but I'm not yet seeing spectacular. He's worth putting some time into.


Why can't we guard the perimeter against good shooting and or hot shooting teams? How many wide open looks have teams got against us lately? I think I'd rather face up a little and take a chance on help defense than continually let teams shoot spot up shots all the time.

The strategy is still to deny the lane and force the jumper. If you at all believe that living and dying by the jump shot is not a good strategy on offense, then you'd have to think that forcing the opponent to do so is a good strategy.

I'd like to see us adjust a little more when someone gets hot, but I think our team defense isn't up to that level because it takes the kind of communication you just can't develop only in games. You have GOT to have some practice time.


Dahntay Jones took 6 shots, and hit three of them. Two he missed he went to the line for, where he missed only one free throw.

Why are we scapegoating somebody who performed well in a WIN?

Notwithstanding that being fouled sdoesn't count as a shot attempt...

This is PD. Someone always has to be "bad", and a veteran who takes minutes is going to be the first choice.

I really think there is too little observation of intangibles and too much reliance on stats around here (or, ironically, the exact opposite where people believe the stats are lying because they 'know what they see'). There needs to be some watching of players off the ball and watching how the offense flows when players are on the court.


Didn't you call Frank "cocky" after his first press conference?

I'd have to say that subsequent conferences and information reinforce UB's comment. It is the level of "cocky" just above confident, and at this stage it brings a very good thing to the coaching of the team. Some might call it "swagger", which would have a better connotation, but still.

xIndyFan
03-02-2011, 10:54 AM
I want to see DC play with more energy. He had that all year up until now.. Huh.

DC looks tired. he is like josh in the sense he needs to play at such a high level of effort to be effective. i think the 1700 minutes or so he's played this season is starting to catch up with him.

90'sNBARocked
03-02-2011, 11:01 AM
You lost me here....

What I was saying was, even though it was sloppy, they lost a big lead etc, they still are finding ways to win the game in the end

90'sNBARocked
03-02-2011, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=Sookie;1182628]You're crazy.

He looks much more comfortable at the 2. Although he didn't play particularly well at either spot. Lance wasn't good at all at point, better at SG.


2 assists and no turnovers

I know you probably will never "forgive"Lance, but you seem to go out of your way to always paint such a negative picture of him

DC played 27 minutes, and had more turnovers, than assists (1)

How could you say after a total of 17 minutes in 2 games that he could never run the point I think his game and AJ's are very similar in the sense that , while not being pure PG's they are good with the ball in their hands and can create for themselves and others

Since86
03-02-2011, 11:09 AM
I'd have to say that subsequent conferences and information reinforce UB's comment. It is the level of "cocky" just above confident, and at this stage it brings a very good thing to the coaching of the team. Some might call it "swagger", which would have a better connotation, but still.

"Cocky" has such a negative connotation attached to it. While you might argue that it's merely semantics when I say there is a difference between "cocky" and "confident," it's the truth.

Confidence doesn't carry the negative baggage. I don't think Vogel is cocky at all, I think he's confident.

I think he's overly confident, due to the situation that he stepped into. The level of negativity with Jim, warranted a bigger step in the other direction.

I really don't think we've seen the "real" Frank Vogel. I think we've seen glimpses, but I also think that he has some talking points ready to go in his pressers. And I say that, because he puts some serious emphasis on some words/phrases, which fall out of place when considering how he talks/acts the rest of the time.




And the point of my question, wasn't to bust on his assessment of Frank, but rather point out that he's falling into the whole "do as I say, not as I do" thing.

90'sNBARocked
03-02-2011, 11:09 AM
I still like Lance more at the one. His talents center around him dribbling the ball, and I think he's worthless when you ask him to hang around the three point line away from the ball to be a catch and shoot guy.

I'm not arguing that he can't be a 2, but so far I'm not even close to convinced that he is not good enough to play the one, and again as long as that is the case, I like him there because I like him with the ball in his hands.

This!

He doesn't have to be a traditional point guard, but he plays much better and much more aggressive with the ball in his hands. He has already shown the ability to beat his man off the dribble. Lance is not a traditional playmaker , but he can make plays with the ball in his hands. He looks more comfortable at the 1, in my opinion

BRushWithDeath
03-02-2011, 11:10 AM
There needs to be some watching of players off the ball and watching how the offense flows when players are on the court.



Watching how the offense flows as a defense of Dahntay Jones? I'm flabbergasted.

Brad8888
03-02-2011, 11:13 AM
Another game that the Pacers did NOT die by the 3. Despite poor shooting from 3 while the Warriors lit it up from the arc, the Pacers managed to win the game at the line, outscoring the Warriors 32 to 13 there on 32 of 36 shooting. Very indicative of the radical change in style with a focus on basketball fundamentals that Vogel has implemented, and that bodes well for being competitive in most games while the team actually develops.

I continue to be encouraged! Goooooooo Pacers!!!!!!!!

DaveP63
03-02-2011, 12:08 PM
Really, at the end of the day who gives a damn whether Lance is a PG or an SG? He can be anything he wants up to and including a Point Forward. (The dreaded stretch four, however, is right out). The kid has shown flashes of real potential. Why be in such a hurry to catagorize him after twenty minutes of play...

Sookie
03-02-2011, 12:13 PM
I just see many on here drawing conclusions about whether he's a true point guard, or more of a point guard than Darren and AJ........We've seen him play two games. he's looked good. he has an NBA body and has good talent. I think making any other conclusions than he has a real chance to be good is jumpiong the gun.

My opinion is not from his 17 minutes of action, it's from preseason, summer league, and his college season as well. He's played basketball his whole life, some of us have seen him in more minutes than this season. ;)

I've said it a million times, and no one will give me a response. How can a player who couldn't (couldn't not didn't aka Tried and failed at EVERY level of competition) play point at the AAU, Highschool, or college level, play it at the NBA level?

Yes, he's ball dominant, needs the ball in his hands, whatever. But he hasn't been good at running an offense in the past, and he's best when looking for his own shot.

He's shown he's got talent in his limited minutes, and he's shown he's willing to bring energy. But that's all he's shown. But I'm going to be done arguing this point though. It's a basketball pet peeve of mine, the whole "let's make our ball dominant SG a PG, because we'll have such a big advantage." It rarely, if ever works. But People's heels are stuck in the ground on both sides. I just hope that forcing Lance out of position doesn't hurt him in the long run, if he stays a core piece of the team.

Since86
03-02-2011, 12:17 PM
Because the NBA is much more of a "me" game at the NBA level?

There are a lot of players who didn't even play the point in college who are PGs in the NBA. And some of them are the elite level PGs.

Derron Williams and Russell Westbrook to name just two.

EDIT: Derron played along side Dee Brown and Luther Head. Westbrook played along side Darren Collison and Jrue Holiday.

All of them were simply "guards."

pacer4ever
03-02-2011, 12:19 PM
Because the NBA is much more of a "me" game at the NBA level?

There are a lot of players who didn't even play the point in college who are PGs in the NBA. And some of them are the elite level PGs.

Derron Williams and Russell Westbrook to name just two.

The NBA is better suited for Lance than college ball was. The rules in the NBA fit to what Lance does.

xIndyFan
03-02-2011, 12:25 PM
this falls into the FWIW dept.

interesting to see both lance and paul having trouble finishing. funny interesting. :laugh:

rookies, welcome to the NBA. they both make nice moves, smooth dribbles, go to the rim and find out they are short of where they thought they would be. oops.

with time they will both get used to the increased size and physicallity of the NBA game. but for now it is still funny to watch them being 'just a bit outside' when they are trying to finish.

cdash
03-02-2011, 02:39 PM
My opinion is not from his 17 minutes of action, it's from preseason, summer league, and his college season as well. He's played basketball his whole life, some of us have seen him in more minutes than this season. ;)

I've said it a million times, and no one will give me a response. How can a player who couldn't (couldn't not didn't aka Tried and failed at EVERY level of competition) play point at the AAU, Highschool, or college level, play it at the NBA level?

Yes, he's ball dominant, needs the ball in his hands, whatever. But he hasn't been good at running an offense in the past, and he's best when looking for his own shot.

He's shown he's got talent in his limited minutes, and he's shown he's willing to bring energy. But that's all he's shown. But I'm going to be done arguing this point though. It's a basketball pet peeve of mine, the whole "let's make our ball dominant SG a PG, because we'll have such a big advantage." It rarely, if ever works. But People's heels are stuck in the ground on both sides. I just hope that forcing Lance out of position doesn't hurt him in the long run, if he stays a core piece of the team.

Yeah, you know I am riding this wave with you. NBA teams have tried and tried to make shooting guards into point guards but it almost never works. Larry Hughes, OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans are three examples off the very top of my head that failed for various reasons. I still think Lance would be best suited playing as a SG next to a PG who doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be effective. AJ Price and Lance are a perfect backcourt duo. Lance would also fit well next to someone like Mo Williams.