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Gamble1
03-01-2011, 12:32 PM
As many of us know we will have a substantial amount of money to spend in this off season. The question I pose to you is what would you consider a successful off season for the Pacers.

Do we stand pat and make no major signing ie just sign backups to replace our FA's?

Do we sign a starting sg? Who?

Do we sign a starting pf? Who?

Do we upgrade Collison?


My ideal scenario goes something like this:

1. Upgrading our starting PF position. We have talked about this ad nauseam but I would like to offer some details that I think would be a plausible sign and trade. Its no secret that David West plans on opting out of his contract after this year so I would suggest to Bird that we do a sign and trade with the Hornets for West. The contract would be 4-5 years for 12 million per.

If I am David West agent I would have to ask myself if I really want my client to dabble in a post CBA FA market with new rules and probably lower salaries. If the Hornets need a sweetner then I would offer up a second round pick or swap first round picks or do both. This way we still have a pick in order to land Mayo if Bird wants to revisit that deal.

The main reason to do this deal is to avoid a bidding war with other teams. Would it work I have no clue but I think its atleast a reasonable scenario for Bird to look into. The worst thing I can forsee happening is that we make a run for a player and we don't get him.

2. Sign a Veteran shooting guard.

Yes I am a PG fan and I believe he is the sg of the future but I don't know when he can actually give us consistent play. Until then I would like to sign a veteran sg like Jason Richardson. Offer up 3 years 8 million per and see what he says. If the answer is no then I think hard about standing pat with PG and Rush.

3. Here is my out in left field scenario. "IF" Lance is a good boy this offseason then I sign him to 4 year extension with a the 4th year being a team option. This contract would be a low ball offer at around 2 million per year and the point would be to retain a player with tremendous upside for cheap. IMO the contract would have to low enough that we could cut ties with him if he had a serious incident off the court. I am not even sure if we can sign him to an extension but I would look to do it as soon as possible if we plan on giving him more minutes in the future. FYI his contact is up after next year.

I know many posters will disagree with my suggestions but if we accomplished something like this in the off season then I would be thrilled as a Pacers fan.:happydanc

graphic-er
03-01-2011, 12:38 PM
I think Lance is already signed for next year anyway.

I agree with the West Deal. 10-12 million is a good figure.

I do think our biggest need right now is a shooting guard. We just don't get any consistent production from any of our 2's

BKK
03-01-2011, 01:06 PM
IIRC Lance signed a 3 or 4 year deal last summer

yoadknux
03-01-2011, 01:07 PM
First thing we should do, if you ask me, re-sign either Foster OR Mc for about 3m-4m for a few years. It won't hurt us that much and we need one of them off the bench. personally I prefer Foster.

Next, before the draft, we should check our options.
What we have to offer is mostly Posey, D.Jones, Brandon rush. I may be OK with trading collison, but only if we get a huge upgrade in return, and I'd rather not trade Granger/Hibbert.
Trades that aren't available now may be available later; for example, The reason the 76ers don't trade Iggy is because of their playoff run. If they get swept in first round, maybe they'll decide to trade him after all. Josh smith could be tradeable as well if Atlanta gets swept also, but they'll probably be looking for a decent center to take his place.
This goes both ways though, and some trades that were available before won't be now. (Gerald wallace is in portland, and I'm not sure we could get Mayo because these guys seemed to like Mc rather than the draft pick)

Next is the draft, assuming we didn't trade anything, we'd have 1-2 extra players. if we assume we gave both contracts, it'll probably be around 3m together. So we have 13 players and about 20m to spend for 2 players. Our 1/3/5 spots are covered so we should of course look for a 2 and a 4.

Free Agent SG options:
Jamal Crawford
Jason Richardson
Tracy Mcgrady (uhh... might as well keep rush..)

Free Agent PF options:
David West
Zach Randolph
Carl Landry

Gamble1
03-01-2011, 01:22 PM
IIRC Lance signed a 3 or 4 year deal last summer
I should had looked at Shamsports. After 2012 then we should sign him to a bigger contract for more years. I really want to lock him up as a Pacers for a long time on a cheap contract.

Sparhawk
03-01-2011, 01:25 PM
First thing we should do, if you ask me, re-sign either Foster OR Mc for about 3m-4m for a few years. It won't hurt us that much and we need one of them off the bench. personally I prefer Foster.

Next, before the draft, we should check our options.
What we have to offer is mostly Posey, D.Jones, Brandon rush. I may be OK with trading collison, but only if we get a huge upgrade in return, and I'd rather not trade Granger/Hibbert.
Trades that aren't available now may be available later; for example, The reason the 76ers don't trade Iggy is because of their playoff run. If they get swept in first round, maybe they'll decide to trade him after all. Josh smith could be tradeable as well if Atlanta gets swept also, but they'll probably be looking for a decent center to take his place.
This goes both ways though, and some trades that were available before won't be now. (Gerald wallace is in portland, and I'm not sure we could get Mayo because these guys seemed to like Mc rather than the draft pick)

Next is the draft, assuming we didn't trade anything, we'd have 1-2 extra players. if we assume we gave both contracts, it'll probably be around 3m together. So we have 13 players and about 20m to spend for 2 players. Our 1/3/5 spots are covered so we should of course look for a 2 and a 4.

Free Agent SG options:
Jamal Crawford
Jason Richardson
Tracy Mcgrady (uhh... might as well keep rush..)

Free Agent PF options:
David West
Zach Randolph
Carl Landry

I'd love to sign McGrady, but I don't think we'll need him and I'm sure he wouldn't want to come here.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 01:56 PM
you must be high if you think J rich is gonna sign for 2m a year.

NO would rather trade David West for something of value not a 2nd rd pick


Please lets be a little more realestic here.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 01:58 PM
I should had looked at Shamsports. After 2012 then we should sign him to a bigger contract for more years. I really want to lock him up as a Pacers for a long time on a cheap contract.

Thats not realistic if he plays well he isnt gonna sign to a "long term cheap contract"

DemonHunter1105
03-01-2011, 02:04 PM
I think he meant use the 2nd round pick as sweetener not as the main trade chip on our side. As in, if they don't like our initial offer (whatever it may be) then add a 2nd round pick or offer to switch 1st rounders.

wintermute
03-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Its no secret that David West plans on opting out of his contract after this year so I would suggest to Bird that we do a sign and trade with the Hornets for West. The contract would be 4-5 years for 12 million per.

If I am David West agent I would have to ask myself if I really want my client to dabble in a post CBA FA market with new rules and probably lower salaries. If the Hornets need a sweetner then I would offer up a second round pick or swap first round picks. This way we still have a pick in order to land Mayo if Bird wants to revisit that deal.

The main reason to do this deal is to avoid a bidding war with other teams. Would it work I have no clue but I think its atleast a reasonable scenario for Bird to look into. The worst thing I can forsee happening is that we make a run for a player and we don't get him.



Uh... I think you've got some of your facts mixed up. Yes, David West will probably opt out, and after that he'll be an unrestricted free agent. This will be post new CBA though - there's no more time to sign a new deal under the old CBA.

There's no need for us to do a sign and trade with NOH, since we can sign him outright with cap space. NOH won't really have any additional rights on West, other than the right to overpay him (Bird rights). Nothing we can do would prevent a bidding war should other teams be interested. Thankfully OKC seems to be out of the running now.

IMO, David West re-signing with NOH still seems the most likely outcome to me, though I think they will have to overpay. Whatever happens though, I hope we use our cap space to upgrade our frontcourt, whether through signings or trades. I like our current guys, but we need both more quality and more depth.

In contrast, I'm pretty happy with the wing rotation. Upgrades would be nice, but shouldn't be the priority I think.

BillS
03-01-2011, 02:17 PM
There's no need for us to do a sign and trade with NOH, since we can sign him outright with cap space. NOH won't really have any additional rights on West, other than the right to overpay him (Bird rights).

And that is why you might do a s&t rather than a free agent offer, if we had a combination of salaries remaining that were worth it to NO. An S&T nets the player more money, and is one of the best ways to get him to a place he might not normally go.

Question for capologists - if we were way under the cap we could absorb salary above what we send out even in an S&T scenario, right?

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 02:20 PM
And that is why you might do a s&t rather than a free agent offer, if we had a combination of salaries remaining that were worth it to NO. An S&T nets the player more money, and is one of the best ways to get him to a place he might not normally go.

Question for capologists - if we were way under the cap we could absorb salary above what we send out even in an S&T scenario, right?

Trade expection and picks and possibly Tyler if NO was intersted.

wintermute
03-01-2011, 02:31 PM
Question for capologists - if we were way under the cap we could absorb salary above what we send out even in an S&T scenario, right?

Well yes, but...


And that is why you might do a s&t rather than a free agent offer, if we had a combination of salaries remaining that were worth it to NO. An S&T nets the player more money, and is one of the best ways to get him to a place he might not normally go.


... do you really want to overpay 31 year old David West? I'd hope that our cap space would be enough, unless we're trying to squeeze in a few more free agents.

We don't have many options for salary to send back anyway, just Posey or TPE as p4e says.

BillS
03-01-2011, 02:45 PM
... do you really want to overpay 31 year old David West? I'd hope that our cap space would be enough, unless we're trying to squeeze in a few more free agents.

We don't have many options for salary to send back anyway, just Posey or TPE as p4e says.

Depends on how bad we want him. I have no real opinion, but if we want to get him as opposed to another East team, we might need to be willing to pony up the Bird max.

And again, the advantage of being under the cap would be that we'd only have to send back (say) Posey or the TPE. Since we are under the cap the salaries don't have to match.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 02:49 PM
Depends on how bad we want him. I have no real opinion, but if we want to get him as opposed to another East team, we might need to be willing to pony up the Bird max.

And again, the advantage of being under the cap would be that we'd only have to send back (say) Posey or the TPE. Since we are under the cap the salaries don't have to match.

They wouldnt want Posey so it would likely be a TPE and 1st. I would love to ship off Posey but NO wouldnt want him.

indygeezer
03-01-2011, 02:58 PM
We are said to have alot of cap space next year but that space comes from players not being resigned by the Pacers.

So, in order to get this space...WHO of the current crop do we NOT resign?

Thankfully JT drops off IIRC

MyFavMartin
03-01-2011, 02:58 PM
I don't think we're going to sign a FA just to sign one... We see how that worked out for Detroit. TPTB have their targets and if all else fails in FA, there's potential trades or waiting for the next trade deadline or summer '12.

Let's just hope there's NBA next year.

Gamble1
03-01-2011, 03:19 PM
you must be high if you think J rich is gonna sign for 2m a year.

NO would rather trade David West for something of value not a 2nd rd pick


Please lets be a little more realestic here.
Sorry orginally I wrote J Rich for 8 million per year. I forgot to add that in when I edited it. Thanks for pointing that out. This isn't what I would want to sign him for but its what I think it would take to get him to play for the Pacers.

Gamble1
03-01-2011, 03:33 PM
IMO, David West re-signing with NOH still seems the most likely outcome to me, though I think they will have to overpay. Whatever happens though, I hope we use our cap space to upgrade our frontcourt, whether through signings or trades. I like our current guys, but we need both more quality and more depth.

In contrast, I'm pretty happy with the wing rotation. Upgrades would be nice, but shouldn't be the priority I think.
How much does it factor in that the league owns the team. Without West they are still are going to have a team salary around 45 million depending on what happens with their qualifing offers which doesn't include filling out the roster and rookie salaries.

BringJackBack
03-01-2011, 04:26 PM
Shooting guard options that I'd like in order:

1.) OJ Mayo- Young, very cheap, and low risk
2.) Jamal Crawford- He's better than Mayo, but he comes at a higher price and he's older. He's just what we're looking for though.
3.) Jason Richardson- He'd be good for us, but it looks like he's going to decline starting next year.

Of course you have to go after Iggy, Wallace, etc.. If they become available. At this point I'd even take a flyer on Kevin Martin. He defense is bad, but eff it our shooting guard offense is a damn joke.

Power Forward:

1.) David West- This is just a perfect fit.
2.) Carl Landry- He's not a huge pickup, but he's still better that what we currently have.

Then if somehow Josh Smith, Luis Scola, etc. become available of course you go after them.

I think that by the end of the year we'll need some more stability at point guard too, but Raymond Felton is the only player that I would like that might be available. Devin Harris is not big enough of an upgrade to take on his salary, and Aaron Brooks is bad.

I'd be ecstatic if we shot for the stars in a couple of years and did a DC/Granger/First rounder/Prospect trade for one of the best point guards in the league, but that's dreaming as of right now. Point guard/George/Hibbert/Mayo/Power forward/Maybe Lance/Best bench in the league.. :drool: :cloud9:

Merz
03-01-2011, 04:33 PM
Hopefully there are plenty of options to improve the team through trade. The new CBA might get a few teams wanting to trade players just to get under the cap. With the Pacers already being under they can just absorb them and not have to match talent going the other way. For example, Atl could possibly trade Josh Smith just to get under the cap, due to Joe Johnson's huge deal. Hopefully there are plenty of options like that, as I see it being a better way to add to the team than free agency this offseason.

beast23
03-01-2011, 04:44 PM
Just a couple of points. Stephenson is currently under contract through 2013/2014, with the last 2 years not being guaranteed.

The Pacers will have 10 current players remaining under contract at the conclusion of this season with a combined salary of $36.34M. If the salary cap (or hard cap if adopted) under the new CBA would be equal to the present salary cap of $58M and assuming that roster sizes remain at 15, that means that the Pacers will need to sign free agents and/or draft choices for just under $22M.

Let's look at an example to see just how far.... or not so far, $22M will go.
FA#1 $10M
FA#2 $8M
McRoberts or Foster $4M
1st round pick...... woops, we've already used up the $22M and we only have 13 players under contract.

Like I've said.... we have a lot of possibilities, but it's going to take a little caution and also a little luck. It would also be helpful if one of our more expensive needs were somehow attained through a trade. That way, some of the cap space would be preserved for other signings.

On the surface, it might be nice to rid ourselves of Posey, but I have a hunch that his $7.6M salary coming off the books after next season will be very necessary in re-signing Hibbert, Price and possibly Rush (if he's still around).

Mackey_Rose
03-01-2011, 04:44 PM
I think anybody who thinks it's going to be a "debacle" if the Pacers do not get any of the big-name free agents, this summer, are going to end up pretty upset.

xIndyFan
03-01-2011, 04:57 PM
We are said to have alot of cap space next year but that space comes from players not being resigned by the Pacers.

So, in order to get this space...WHO of the current crop do we NOT resign?

Thankfully JT drops off IIRC

danny granger ---- 3yr/$39M
james posey ------ 1yr/$7.6M
dahntay jones ---- 2yr/$5.6M
paul george------- 3yr/$7.5M
brandon rush ----- 1yr/$3M
tyler hansbrough - 2yr/$5.7M
roy hibbert ------- 1yr/$2.6M
darren collison ---- 2yr/$3.8M
AJ price ---------- 1yr/$0.9M
lance stephenson - 3yr/$2.7M

these are the guys signed next year and salaries. 3 PG's, 5 wings and 2 bigs. or 4 wings and 3 bigs depending on how you count james posey.

jeff foster, josh mcroberts, solo jones, TJ ford and mike dunleavy drop off the salary cap. along with jamaal tinsley, magnum rolle and lance allred.

Gamble1
03-01-2011, 06:20 PM
The Pacers will have 10 current players remaining under contract at the conclusion of this season with a combined salary of $36.34M. If the salary cap (or hard cap if adopted) under the new CBA would be equal to the present salary cap of $58M and assuming that roster sizes remain at 15, that means that the Pacers will need to sign free agents and/or draft choices for just under $22M.

Let's look at an example to see just how far.... or not so far, $22M will go.
FA#1 $10M
FA#2 $8M
McRoberts or Foster $4M
1st round pick...... woops, we've already used up the $22M and we only have 13 players under contract.

Well considering how many current NBA teams operate at well above 58 million I think you are presenting an extreme that won't happen under a new CBA. I will bet my house that we will have more than 22 million to spend next season.

Gamble1
03-01-2011, 06:20 PM
Shooting guard options that I'd like in order:

1.) OJ Mayo- Young, very cheap, and low risk
2.) Jamal Crawford- He's better than Mayo, but he comes at a higher price and he's older. He's just what we're looking for though.
3.) Jason Richardson- He'd be good for us, but it looks like he's going to decline starting next year.

Call me crazy but I think you will see enough of Lance this year that Mayo won't be as enticing to PD members in the off season.

Concerning Jason Richardson I don't know if its because looks old or if he is actually playing old if you get what I mean. In any case he would be my number one option if we could get him for 3 years.

HeliumFear
03-01-2011, 06:47 PM
tbh,it all depends.

I don't want to go after David West,as that essentially forces us to 'win now',and I don't think he puts us over the top. He's 30,I believe.

He's the best FA at a position of need,so I say try and lure a team into salary dumping for pick(s)+ TPE. Possible,but it requires a team to desire to want to rebuild. Hawks perhaps if they have a dissapointing enough post-season?

If we can't do that,keep the cap,see what the CBA does,and wait for the next free agency/good trade to come along.

DrFife
03-01-2011, 06:57 PM
I think anybody who thinks it's going to be a "debacle" if the Pacers do not get any of the big-name free agents, this summer, are going to end up pretty upset.

Yep ... which makes me continue to day-dream about ... okay, Anne Hathaway, but also ... being very pleasantly surprised by the growth of our current players over the summer (and maybe into the lockout portion of next season?).

For example, Hibbert gets universal applause for his progress. No reason to think this won't continue for another year or two. In turn, we'd all be tickled if DC can "acquire" some court vision and better defense, right? What about JMac? Has he not shown admirable development over the past season? He needs to get stronger, tougher, learn to block out and improve his post moves, okay ... but what if he does improve in all those categories? Clearly, we won't have to worry about "wooing" him to Indiana.

Moreover, with better-than-expected improvement from him, or perhaps even most of our core, how might we rethink our potential FA/trade investments? We've all assumed we'd package our pick with Rush or JMac, but give the precarious possibilities of landing a top-notch FA this summer, what if we instead were to move up in the draft? What draftee might make you think, "Oh, wow, if we could improve from within and land him, we'd be ready!"?

Eleazar
03-01-2011, 11:27 PM
I just don't want them to sign anyone to 10+ million if they are over 27 and not a Granger type talent.

Gamble1
03-02-2011, 02:52 PM
tbh,it all depends.

I don't want to go after David West,as that essentially forces us to 'win now',and I don't think he puts us over the top. He's 30,I believe.
I am not sure what Bird is going to do but I think he would rather spend money/assets on a guy younger than West. Unfortunately I think there are few good pf's in the NBA and no team is going to give one up just to cut salary. Basically every team has other players that they could trade just to cut salaries.

Right now West is ranked 12th among forwards in the NBA in points/rebounds/assist.

I don't think West alone puts us in the top 5 in the East but I think if PG and Collison develop next year to be better players then I defiantly think adding West makes a top 5 team in the East.

I am also pretty sure Bird and Simon will be in a "win now mode" this off season.

Eleazar
03-02-2011, 03:19 PM
I am also pretty sure Bird and Simon will be in a "win now mode" this off season.

Which is sad because this team and the players need another year before the team needs to be in a "win now mode".

BRushWithDeath
03-02-2011, 03:25 PM
I think the Pacers will make a very lucrative offer to David West.

I think the debacle will be 3 years into that contract when we realize we massively overpaid for him.

pacer4ever
03-02-2011, 04:12 PM
Z bo is who we need to go after

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 04:18 PM
I don't care where or how we get it, we just need significanlty more talent at shooting guard and power forward. A power forward who can play the PnR, PnP, and post ups and can get 8-10 rebounds a game and who's somewhat consistent, and a shooting guard that can help us close and create for himself and sometimes others.

Those two guys with the improvements of DC, Paul George, Roy, Lance, AJ, Tyler, and Josh if he's still around would make us flat out solid going forward. Then we are ready to take the next step into a 50 win team or so next year and go from there.. :drool:

Swish
03-02-2011, 04:40 PM
Am I the only one a little gunshy about free agents this season? It's like, we finally get out of cap hell; I'm not sure if I want to run right back into it.

troyc11a
03-02-2011, 04:41 PM
I don't care where or how we get it, we just need significanlty more talent at shooting guard and power forward. A power forward who can play the PnR, PnP, and post ups and can get 8-10 rebounds a game and who's somewhat consistent, and a shooting guard that can help us close and create for himself and sometimes others.

Those two guys with the improvements of DC, Paul George, Roy, Lance, AJ, Tyler, and Josh if he's still around would make us flat out solid going forward. Then we are ready to take the next step into a 50 win team or so next year and go from there.. :drool:

I agree we need more talent "everywhere." I am guessing it will be possible to pick up a player under contract very easily this summer. We just watched Baron Davis get dealt "with" at 1st round pick just to unload his salary. With the new CBA, how many teams will make players available to teams below the cap? Remember last year the Wizards received a 1st round pick just to take Kirk Hinrich? I am hoping for that kind of action instead of signing FA's. I really dont see any FA's that look all that appealing.

Eleazar
03-02-2011, 04:45 PM
Am I the only one a little gunshy about free agents this season? It's like, we finally get out of cap hell; I'm not sure if I want to run right back into it.

I agree, and I don't want to see this team make any rash moves that end up only harming the team in the long run.

Gamble1
03-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Am I the only one a little gunshy about free agents this season? It's like, we finally get out of cap hell; I'm not sure if I want to run right back into it.
It seems that a lot of posters are gunshy of signing a guy to a big contract. Personally I am not because the "reasons" we ended up in cap purgatory was do to knuckle heads. We would have never of traded for Murphleavy if it wasn't for off the court isues.

Knock on wood we will never be stuck in that big of a finacial hole again.


I agree we need more talent "everywhere." I am guessing it will be possible to pick up a player under contract very easily this summer. We just watched Baron Davis get dealt "with" at 1st round pick just to unload his salary. With the new CBA, how many teams will make players available to teams below the cap? Remember last year the Wizards received a 1st round pick just to take Kirk Hinrich? I am hoping for that kind of action instead of signing FA's. I really dont see any FA's that look all that appealing.

Lets be real. No one is going to give us a good player on a reasonable contract. Those players you mentioned aren't the type of players we need or want. IMO the action you are referring to is overpaid guys to which teams just want to cut bait on. This is the last way I want Bird spending our cap room.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 05:50 PM
There's a difference between taking on Troy Murphy and Dunleavy's huge contracts, career backups/DNP guys, and signing difference maker free agents (David West, Randolph, Jamal Crawford, OJ Mayo, etc.), who are big time difference makers for good teams.

xIndyFan
03-02-2011, 06:00 PM
I think the Pacers will make a very lucrative offer to David West.


i don't think so. david west is not the PF when i think of smashmouth basketball. don't know who it is the pacers will get, just don't think it is west. :whoknows:


Z bo is who we need to go after

no chance at all of this happening. he has way too much local drug related baggage. :shrug:

pacer4ever
03-02-2011, 06:03 PM
i don't think so. david west is not the PF when i think of smashmouth basketball. don't know who it is the pacers will get, just don't think it is west. :whoknows:



no chance at all of this happening. he has way too much local drug related baggage. :shrug:

Just because a child hood friend blames you doesent mean its true. All charges were not even filed the police figured out the guy was lying and just trying to throw Z bo under the bus.

xIndyFan
03-02-2011, 06:05 PM
Just because a child hood friend blames you doesent mean its true. All charges were not even filed the police figured out the guy was lying and just trying to throw Z bo under the bus.

not saying you're incorrect or that zach is guilty. just saying that is the reason the pacers won't sign him. the PR hit is just too bad to even try.

Trophy
03-02-2011, 06:35 PM
When I think of Jamal Crawford, I think of a solid reserve.

He's not a good starter, but he's a good offensive spark coming off you're bench to play larger minutes and a trustworthy player to take the last shot.

I still like Mayo because he's young and still has the potential to play like a star in a new environment with fair minutes.

The PF position still remains up in the air.

xIndyFan
03-02-2011, 06:59 PM
crawford has nice skills, but signing him to be a backup is a huge waste of money, imo. signing any wing for big money that is not going to replace danny or paul is a huge waste of money.

danny and paul are the wings going forward. maybe lance will get some minutes there also. there are not enough minutes left to make signing a wing a priority.

now, PF or bigs in general, that is a different story. pacers need to get bigs ASAP.

Eleazar
03-02-2011, 07:09 PM
crawford has nice skills, but signing him to be a backup is a huge waste of money, imo. signing any wing for big money that is not going to replace danny or paul is a huge waste of money.

danny and paul are the wings going forward. maybe lance will get some minutes there also. there are not enough minutes left to make signing a wing a priority.

now, PF or bigs in general, that is a different story. pacers need to get bigs ASAP.

I agree with the SG. With Paul and Danny we don't really need to be looking for a starter. If Lance becomes a great scorer off the bench we don't really need a Mayo, and we would still have Rush as a defensive specialist. To me that is a perfect group of wing players.

While I do agree PF improvement is needed, I don't see it as something so necessary to spend more than $8million a year on someone who is over 27. We have a young group of players who aren't going to be ready to truly compete for at least another season, we don't need to go out and sign someone who will only make it difficult to re-sign these young players.

CableKC
03-02-2011, 07:12 PM
tbh,it all depends.

I don't want to go after David West,as that essentially forces us to 'win now',and I don't think he puts us over the top. He's 30,I believe.

He's the best FA at a position of need,so I say try and lure a team into salary dumping for pick(s)+ TPE. Possible,but it requires a team to desire to want to rebuild. Hawks perhaps if they have a dissapointing enough post-season?

If we can't do that,keep the cap,see what the CBA does,and wait for the next free agency/good trade to come along.
IMHO...I think that the "wait until the 2012-2013 Offseason" option is the absolute last resort option that Bird would consider. I fully expect that we will pursue a Starting Quality SG in the offseason via FA or via trade. As for PF...I'd say that there is a 50/50 chance that we pursue a Starting Quality PF given ( as you say ) the lack of PF options available.

I know that Bird is patient when it comes to making deals....but IMHO...I think that he was patient only because he had little choice. The reality is that Bird's options were severely limited over the last 3 seasons. We are at the end of the 3 year plan where the primary goal IMHO was to provide the Simons with Salary/Financial flexibility going into a season with a new CBA so that they are better prepared to cope with the new CBA rules while having actual options in the new CBA era to make moves ( something we didn't have before ).

I think that the 1st step in improving the future of the Team was to "return to the Playoffs" ( so that we can build some excitement among the fanbase....ESPECIALLY if we face the Heat in the 1st round ). If we do make the Playoffs this season....I think that the FO will be ready to take the next step beyond "returning to the Playoffs"....become a perennial Playoff contender ( which we were before the brawl ).

IMHO...I don't think that we can do it without filling the gaping hole that we have at the Starting SG or PF spot, something that the FO recognizes. Given all the moves that Bird has tried to make ( and have fallen through at the last second )....my impression is that Bird will only make a move if it's the right move. However, that simply means that he recognizes that we have to drastically improve our Starting lineup in order to truly compete.

I'm not saying that the FO should spend $$$ on a FA SG or PF just cuz we have the $$ now....I'm saying that I think that they will make major moves sooner....rather then later.

Pacerized
03-02-2011, 08:51 PM
Unless Nene signs and extension with the Nuggets he'd be my first choice to pursue. 28 years old and he can play both 4/5. I'd prefer Nene to West or any sg available.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 11:24 AM
Unless Nene signs and extension with the Nuggets he'd be my first choice to pursue. 28 years old and he can play both 4/5. I'd prefer Nene to West or any sg available.
To be honest I am not sure how Nene would fit next to Roy but I am open to the idea. The one the thing I fear though is if Nene becomes another JO type guy. Missing games because of injuries and having a very large chunck of change wrapped up into a guy who has had knee issues and cancer.

In addition how much money do you want to give a guy who averages 15 ppg and 7 rpg and plays pretty good D? 13 to 15 million? He is already making 11.4 so to get him to come here will cost us more than West IMO.



I'm not saying that the FO should spend $$$ on a FA SG or PF just cuz we have the $$ now....I'm saying that I think that they will make major moves sooner....rather then later.

I couldn't agree more. All signs point to Bird making a move to upgrade our starting lineup. I found it interesting that the Bird made phone calls to the Jazz about Millsap and Jefferson. I think its highly likely that we trade with them do to the fact that they are hook for 57 million next year and thats not counting draft pick signings and filling out the roster. OF course other teams would be in the running as well but there aren't too many that could make a trade where the salaries didn't have to match.

CableKC
03-03-2011, 12:47 PM
I couldn't agree more. All signs point to Bird making a move to upgrade our starting lineup. I found it interesting that the Bird made phone calls to the Jazz about Millsap and Jefferson. I think its highly likely that we trade with them do to the fact that they are hook for 57 million next year and thats not counting draft pick signings and filling out the roster. OF course other teams would be in the running as well but there aren't too many that could make a trade where the salaries didn't have to match.
I don't think that Bird will make a stupid move....just to make a move....but he has shown that he is very anxious to make a move despite somehow the deals falling through at the last second over the last couple years.

I think that if there is a Player that Bird likes and wants on the roster....there is a good chance that we will get him....but my guess ( mainly due to the whole "small market" bias ) that we will overpay. I'm okay with that...as long as the move makes sense and fits our needs.

Looking at the playing field.....I don't mind even waiting until 2012-2013 if nothing pans out...however, if that were the case....I can see us making a move for a Starting SG before making a move for a Starting PF...simply due to lack of available quality PFs to go after.

pacers74
03-03-2011, 12:58 PM
I have a bad feeling if we try and get Mayo again in the off season we still won't be able to make a deal. IT reminds me too much of last year with the Bobcats. I would love to get Mayo, but I don't know who we give up to get him.

As far as PF's, I see West resigning with NO, Nene and his wife love Dnever, so he will resign, and we won't go after Zach so we are stuck with what we have at PF unless we can make some kind of crazy trade. of course we would have to resign Josh. Maybe we can try to make a deal with Utah for Milsap or Jefferson but, even that is a long shot.

I think the best thing we can hope for in the off season is continuted improvment from our youth. If Tyler and Paul can improve like Roy did last off season we could be pretty tough. Just with our lineup and Vogel or a new coach I could us winning 45+ games next season.

yoadknux
03-03-2011, 02:19 PM
I have a bad feeling if we try and get Mayo again in the off season we still won't be able to make a deal. IT reminds me too much of last year with the Bobcats. I would love to get Mayo, but I don't know who we give up to get him.

As far as PF's, I see West resigning with NO, Nene and his wife love Dnever, so he will resign, and we won't go after Zach so we are stuck with what we have at PF unless we can make some kind of crazy trade. of course we would have to resign Josh. Maybe we can try to make a deal with Utah for Milsap or Jefferson but, even that is a long shot.

I think the best thing we can hope for in the off season is continuted improvment from our youth. If Tyler and Paul can improve like Roy did last off season we could be pretty tough. Just with our lineup and Vogel or a new coach I could us winning 45+ games next season.
45+ games? with this lineup? Collison/Rush/Granger/Mcroberts/Hibbert?
we'd be lucky if we hit 40. And if you plan on starting George/Tyler in at 2/4, it's too early to tell how many games we'll win, because Geroge had 0 starts this season.
If all we do is resign old players during the off season I'd be disappointed, because we'll keep being very medicore...
We'll just have to wait and see, I couldn't predict the Mayo trade, so I can't predict what's going to happen later

Haywoode Workman
03-03-2011, 02:46 PM
Just because a child hood friend blames you doesent mean its true. All charges were not even filed the police figured out the guy was lying and just trying to throw Z bo under the bus.

man i would love to have zach, i watched him play at the summer league games at iupui. he's a good dude and a beast on the boards.

here's the thing though. pacersdigest represents a very tiny percentage of pacers fans in indiana. most of the "fans" of this team literally still think the pacers are "thugs". its the foxnews/msnbc crowd who don't put any effort into examining things deeper, taking everything they hear from the almighty tube and at the water cooler at face value.

so as soon as zbo signs that contract, we'll see an article by kravitz with some quasi creative headline reading somewhere along the lines of:

"Bird Making Same Mistakes All Over Again" or "Out With The Old Thugs, In With New"

and just like that, the headband clad (headbands raise major red flags for midwestern folk) zach randolph becomes the next "thug" for us self righteous indiana basketball fans to crucify.

it wouldn't matter if he was innocent or not, the nails would already be set

vnzla81
03-03-2011, 02:49 PM
No to Dwest and No to Zbo neither are the answer.

DGPR
03-03-2011, 02:57 PM
Just because a child hood friend blames you doesent mean its true. All charges were not even filed the police figured out the guy was lying and just trying to throw Z bo under the bus.


No way the Pacers go after him, especially when we were compared to his former team the Jail Blazers, in which he was a big part of!

jcouts
03-03-2011, 03:05 PM
I like the idea of signing West for the right amount. At this point in his career, I think he'll be looking for longevity more than a per year amount.

If we sign West, it basically will be a commitment to both him and Collison (or some other starting PG who excels at the pick and pop).

When DC's shot isn't falling, his comfort zone to fall back on is the pick and pop. Right now, his shot is off and the two big men that he has in the starting lineup aren't even remotely close to good at running the pick and pop. He and West ran it very well last year and would likely continue to run it very well for the next few years.

A good test might be to put Tyler in the starting lineup for a string of games and see if that alleviates the issue with the slow starts. If it does, then we may be on to something and bringing in West as the starter with Tyler as the backup PF to give that same benefit to Price.

CableKC
03-03-2011, 03:09 PM
No to Dwest and No to Zbo neither are the answer.
I agree on ZBo.....not so sure about DWest....but if neither are the answer for our Starting PF needs....what is the answer?

Get another bandaid PF for a year then wait it out until the 2011-2012 season?

beast23
03-03-2011, 03:37 PM
Good gard.... can we just drop the Zach Randolph hooey?

It ain't happening. No how. No way.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/01/grizzlies-owner-defends-zach-randolph/ (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/01/grizzlies-owner-defends-zach-randolph/)<O:p</O:p

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Holy-smokes-Zach-Randolph-might-be-in-quite-a-b?urn=nba-244103 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Holy-smokes-Zach-Randolph-might-be-in-quite-a-b?urn=nba-244103)<O:p</O:p

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1676104 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1676104)<O:p></O:p>

http://fansattic.blogspot.com/2007/02/time-to-trade-zach-randolph.html (http://fansattic.blogspot.com/2007/02/time-to-trade-zach-randolph.html)<O:p></O:p>

An old saying is that where there is a crap load of smoke, there must be fire...

But let's give ZR the benefit of the doubt. Let's just say that he hasn't been charged with anything... and therefore he is far from being convicted of anything.

The Pacers are just now emerging from the contract hell that they experienced with the bad citizens that were once on the team.

With respect to ZR, there may not be any fire, but there are thousands of Pacer fans getting choked out by the smoke. If you really think the Pacers would touch ZR with all the smoke surrounding him, then I'm sorry... you just don't get it.

Professor S
03-03-2011, 03:43 PM
Good gard.... can we just drop the Zach Randolph hooey?

It ain't happening. No how. No way.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/01/grizzlies-owner-defends-zach-randolph/ (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/01/grizzlies-owner-defends-zach-randolph/)<O:p</O:p

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Holy-smokes-Zach-Randolph-might-be-in-quite-a-b?urn=nba-244103 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Holy-smokes-Zach-Randolph-might-be-in-quite-a-b?urn=nba-244103)<O:p</O:p

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1676104 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1676104)<O:p></O:p>

http://fansattic.blogspot.com/2007/02/time-to-trade-zach-randolph.html (http://fansattic.blogspot.com/2007/02/time-to-trade-zach-randolph.html)<O:p></O:p>

An old saying is that where there is a crap load of smoke, there must be fire...

But let's give ZR the benefit of the doubt. Let's just say that he hasn't been charged with anything... and therefore he is far from being convicted of anything.

The Pacers are just now emerging from the contract hell that they experienced with the bad citizens that were once on the team.

With respect to ZR, there may not be any fire, but there are thousands of Pacer fans getting choked out by the smoke. If you really think the Pacers would touch ZR with all the smoke surrounding him, then I'm sorry... you just don't get it.

Why are people so quick to dismiss the possibility of Randolph joining the Pacers? I agree it's a potential powder keg but he is one hell of a player and there were some indications that Bird's insistence on Randolph's inclusion in the Mayo deal partially led to the deal's collapse. Don't be completely shocked if it happens.

beast23
03-03-2011, 03:51 PM
Why are people so quick to dismiss the possibility of Randolph joining the Pacers? I agree it's a potential powder keg but he is one hell of a player and there were some indications that Bird's insistence on Randolph's inclusion in the Mayo deal partially led to the deal's collapse. Don't be completely shocked if it happens.

Links please. We weren't giving up anything close to enough to get Randolph. And with Dunleavy's injury, did not have the players available, other than Danny, to trade for Randolph.

As for the full content of the post, I rest my case. You are apparently a member of the group to whom I was referring.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 04:07 PM
Links please. We weren't giving up anything close to enough to get Randolph. And with Dunleavy's injury, did not have the players available, other than Danny, to trade for Randolph.

As for the full content of the post, I rest my case. You are apparently a member of the group to whom I was referring.
I agree that its unlikely that Bird goes after Randolph but I thought it was also unlikely that he would go after Lance and Mayo who have plenty of smoke surrounding them. ZBO is a different story because he will get paid and the others are easier to buy out if such a circumstance would require it but I am not so convinced as you are that Bird is 100% against ZBO as a Pacer.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 04:08 PM
He's a very good player but signing Zach Randolph would be an utter disaster.

BringJackBack
03-03-2011, 04:09 PM
Just go get talent Bird. We need it. Get a power forward and a shooting guard and pray that either Darren Collison gets some vision or Lance makes some strides in the offseason.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 04:25 PM
He's a very good player but signing Zach Randolph would be an utter disaster.
Do you think attendance would be any different????

Whats funny to me is that I was talking to a casual NBA fan yesterday and he was flat out dogging the Pacers while watching the game. He even went so far as to say that he wouldn't go to a game if it was free and his reasoning was not that they were bad guys but just that they sucked.

We need talent and I hope Bird gets some this summer.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 04:26 PM
Do you think attendance would be any different????



It would be when, not if, he gets in trouble again.

Talent is important but you also should avoid the ones who you know are bad guys beforehand.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 04:31 PM
It would be when, not if, he gets in trouble again.

We are never gonna win a title with Milk Drinkers face it we need talent . Your logic is mind boggling. Im glad Larry took a gamble to get a talent in here like Lance and also tried with OJ.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 04:32 PM
It would be when, not if, he gets in trouble again.

Talent is important but you also should avoid the ones who you know are bad guys beforehand.

thats 80% of the NBA

beast23
03-03-2011, 04:34 PM
It would be when, not if, he gets in trouble again.

Talent is important but you also should avoid the ones who you know are bad guys beforehand.
You are messing with me, right? How the heck did we ever get on the same side of an issue. One of us has to be making a mistake, right?

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 04:40 PM
thats 80% of the NBA

That is fabulously inaccurate.

Eleazar
03-03-2011, 04:44 PM
I see far too much make a move to make a move love on this board. The last time the Pacers did that (and it didn't fall through) we ended up with Murphy and Dunleavy. While Dunleavy is a decent player he isn't even close to $10 million good. It would be a better idea to stay with what we have than sign a guy as old as West to $10 million a year. If we want improvement at PF we need to either wait it out with Josh and Tyler or find other young talent that could grow or at least be a viable option for a year or two. While improvement is needed, this team isn't in win now territory. Other than Granger none of them are closer than 2 years from their prime, and they all still have 10, give or take, years left in the league. We aren't old, and we aren't untalented. We are young, with lots of potential. Unless you are giving up on the young talent there is no need to sign a guy like West, especially for how much he will want.

Jon Theodore
03-03-2011, 04:46 PM
Where is the nauseum?

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 04:53 PM
Where is the nauseum?

What does this even mean?

Professor S
03-03-2011, 04:56 PM
Links please. We weren't giving up anything close to enough to get Randolph. And with Dunleavy's injury, did not have the players available, other than Danny, to trade for Randolph.

As for the full content of the post, I rest my case. You are apparently a member of the group to whom I was referring.

First of all, please ease up on the inflammatory rhetoric. I've never insulted you and I don't expect insults in return, just good discussion regarding our mutual favorite team.

I will search for a link more extensively this evening when I am not at work, but articles linked in the initial McRoberts for Mayo thread indicated that the trade fell through due to Bird's insistence on receiving a PF in return. It was said that initially he inquired about the availability of Randolph or Darrell Arthur. It became evident he was unable to acquire either player and that led to the ill-fated attempt at drawing the Hornets into the deal.

I am not accusing anyone of "not getting it." I'm simply stating that there's some evidence out there that our management is willing to take the chance on players with questionable character again and Zach Randolph may be one of those players.

I'm not commenting on whether I think it's a good idea - I think he's one hell of a player but I'd be very concerned if he returned "home." But right now I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that the Pacers brass will pursue him as a free agent in the offseason.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 05:26 PM
That is fabulously inaccurate.
Here is a gift from Will Galen ;).

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=3964

pacers74
03-03-2011, 05:33 PM
45+ games? with this lineup? Collison/Rush/Granger/Mcroberts/Hibbert?
we'd be lucky if we hit 40. And if you plan on starting George/Tyler in at 2/4, it's too early to tell how many games we'll win, because Geroge had 0 starts this season.
If all we do is resign old players during the off season I'd be disappointed, because we'll keep being very medicore...
We'll just have to wait and see, I couldn't predict the Mayo trade, so I can't predict what's going to happen later

I was also hoping/predicting that George and Tyler would have the same type of off season that Hibbert had this season.

TinManJoshua
03-03-2011, 05:40 PM
Here is a gift from Will Galen ;).

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=3964

That's not even half the NBA, let alone 80%.

beast23
03-03-2011, 05:53 PM
...I will search for a link more extensively this evening when I am not at work, but articles linked in the initial McRoberts for Mayo thread indicated that the trade fell through due to Bird's insistence on receiving a PF in return. It was said that initially he inquired about the availability of Randolph or Darrell Arthur. It became evident he was unable to acquire either player and that led to the ill-fated attempt at drawing the Hornets into the deal...

I'm not commenting on whether I think it's a good idea - I think he's one hell of a player but I'd be very concerned if he returned "home." But right now I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that the Pacers brass will pursue him as a free agent in the offseason.

I'm sorry but some common sense just has to prevail here.

Randolph and Mayo combined make nearly 22M. Dunleavy was untradeable in his present physical state, so without including Granger, the Pacers would absolutely decimate their roster in any combination of players in a trade that included Randolph. And, Randolph is also an FA after this season. So, there is no way that they would take him without an extension, and there was no time to work out any details of an extension. Even if rumors were that Memphis was including a PF, there was 0% chance that it was Randolph, just from a business sense alone.

As for the possibility of the Pacers pursuing Randolph this summer, Randolph could reduce his current salary of 17.3M down to 8M going into next season, and the Pacers would still not show an interest.

Bird, Simon, Morway and anyone else associated with the Pacers have taken great pride in the fact that they now have good guys that get along with each other as well as their community. Mayo and Stephenson have minor baggage, but certainly nothing major. Lately, we've learned that TPTB dictated that Stephenson was not going to see court time until after the resolution of his court case. So, it would seem that even someone with far less baggage than Randolph would never have set foot on the court if his court case had gone the other way.

Inflammatory or not, I stick by my guns. If you think there is even a snowball's chance in hell of the Pacers even inquiring about Randolph, either you have not attempted to see the situation from Bird's perspective or you have not seen or read about his interviews. Because he and others associated with the Pacers have made their perspective very well known through interviews regarding the type of player that they want to wear the blue and gold.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 06:05 PM
That's not even half the NBA, let alone 80%.
So 40% is half of 80% which is like telling me somebody is half right yet half wrong. It still isn't fabulously wrong.

This isn't the point of the thread so i dont' want to get too off topic but guys like Chris Webber, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, zydrunas Illgauskus, Marcus Camby, Chris Wilcox all can show up on your morning news. That doesn't make them necessarly bad guys but it is bad PR.

pacer4ever
03-03-2011, 06:08 PM
So 40% is half of 80% which is like telling me somebody is half right yet half wrong. It still isn't fabulously wrong.

This isn't the point of the thread so i dont' want to get too off topic but guys like Chris Webber, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, zydrunas Illgauskus, Marcus Camby, Chris Wilcox all can show up on your morning news. That doesn't make them necessarly bad guys but it is bad PR.

Thats what I was saying if you are worried about PR we will never win. I wasnt saying 80% were bad guys but they get negative media attention.

BRushWithDeath
03-03-2011, 06:24 PM
I wasnt saying 80% were bad guys.

That is exactly what you said.

Not all guys who have been arrested are bad guys. AJ Price is an example. Not all guys who haven't been arrested are good guys. But there are guys who are known bad guys. Zach Randolph is a bad guy.

If we know somebody is a bad guy, like Randolph or OJ Mayo, we should not sign them.

The fact that Randolph is local exacerbates the issue.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 06:36 PM
Thats what I was saying if you are worried about PR we will never win. I wasnt saying 80% were bad guys but they get negative media attention.
Well we do know that 2 guys that we inquired about over the trade deadline had run ins with the law in their life. Paul Millsap and Al Jefferson. I am not as paranoid about it anymore.

TinManJoshua
03-03-2011, 06:40 PM
So 40% is half of 80% which is like telling me somebody is half right yet half wrong. It still isn't fabulously wrong.

This isn't the point of the thread so i dont' want to get too off topic but guys like Chris Webber, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, zydrunas Illgauskus, Marcus Camby, Chris Wilcox all can show up on your morning news. That doesn't make them necessarly bad guys but it is bad PR.

It is closer to fabulously wrong than "half wrong". To marginalize the difference between 40% and 80% as "half-right" is intellectually dishonest.

acquiring these players might be good for the W-L column, but it pours oil on an already tarnished reputation.

You can't win with milk-drinkers. I believe that. But you can't pretend like there isn't middle ground between "bad guys" and Mike freakin' Dunleavy.

To get back on topic, we still have to make the right move. We can't just shuffle to shuffle. We shouldn't, say, give every team in the league a 7 day notice on a Granger trade where best offer wins.

xIndyFan
03-03-2011, 06:43 PM
. . . The fact that Randolph is local exacerbates the issue.

this is the key issue with randolph. people know who he is, who he was and what he was like as a kid, because he is a local. that can help in some cases and hurt in others. in this case, it hurts randolph.

zach may be a really nice guy, but his PR cost is just way to high for the pacers, unless he a lebron james type guy.

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 07:44 PM
It is closer to fabulously wrong than "half wrong". To marginalize the difference between 40% and 80% as "half-right" is intellectually dishonest.

acquiring these players might be good for the W-L column, but it pours oil on an already tarnished reputation.

You can't win with milk-drinkers. I believe that. But you can't pretend like there isn't middle ground between "bad guys" and Mike freakin' Dunleavy.

To get back on topic, we still have to make the right move. We can't just shuffle to shuffle. We shouldn't, say, give every team in the league a 7 day notice on a Granger trade where best offer wins.
We will just have to fabulously disagree then. :-p

IN your opinion then what is the "right move".

Gamble1
03-03-2011, 07:59 PM
I don't think that Bird will make a stupid move....just to make a move....but he has shown that he is very anxious to make a move despite somehow the deals falling through at the last second over the last couple years.

I think that if there is a Player that Bird likes and wants on the roster....there is a good chance that we will get him....but my guess ( mainly due to the whole "small market" bias ) that we will overpay. I'm okay with that...as long as the move makes sense and fits our needs.

Looking at the playing field.....I don't mind even waiting until 2012-2013 if nothing pans out...however, if that were the case....I can see us making a move for a Starting SG before making a move for a Starting PF...simply due to lack of available quality PFs to go after.
I thought this pertained to your post. Thanks 90'sNBAROCKed


"I can't talk about other teams' players, but I will say this: we are very targeted and very specific as to the guys we are looking at right now to add to this basketball team. We have a very good, young core of players. They're starting to play very well. They're starting to grow up. We're excited about them, but at the same time (President) Larry (Bird) and I have taken a very clear and close look at this team and we known exactly what we are trying to add. One of the things we feel like we want to add to this basketball team is another scorer; another guy who can create points on his own and we've targeted several guys we think can help do that and we're going to continue to pursue them. We never felt we needed to get anything done during this period of time. Our mindset, and you know we've never changed this since the day we took over, is we have a very specific plan as to how we're going to develop and grow this team. One of the key elements to that is the cap flexibility we created and we're going to be very patient, very disciplined, on how we use that cap flexibility. It's taken a long time and there's been a lot of pain to get there, to have that flexibility, and we're going to be careful about how we use it, making sure we add the right pieces to this team moving forward."

Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18967#ixzz1FaFOwZgU

TinManJoshua
03-03-2011, 09:11 PM
We will just have to fabulously disagree then. :-p

IN your opinion then what is the "right move".

If we can find a way to get a good PF for Rush and some extras(pick or expiring), I'd make it.

I wouldn't move Danny. Or Roy. That's pretty much it.

Take a swing at signing Mayo or Crawford as a FA. Yeah.

Califan
03-04-2011, 12:21 AM
One guy we should target imo is jason thompson of the kings. He has a nice midrange he hits the boards good and hes still young with room for improvement and i think he would work nicely with Roy down low. That being said though i know alot of teams are interested in him and im not sure the kings want to trade him or let him walk.

beast23
03-04-2011, 12:47 AM
One guy we should target imo is jason thompson of the kings. He has a nice midrange he hits the boards good and hes still young with room for improvement and i think he would work nicely with Roy down low. That being said though i know alot of teams are interested in him and im not sure the kings want to trade him or let him walk.After trading Landry, I think the Kings frontcourt is in shambles come this summer. Cousins had turned out to be a bit of a problem, but for better or worse by getting rid of Landry the Kings are commited to him. With the possibility of losing Dalembert to FA, there's no way the Kings can afford to let Thompson walk.

I have been very high on Thompson also, but his prospects of getting away from the Kings are slim.

I'm am more heavily leaning toward West now than ever before. My reason is that I am not all warm and giddy about Collison as I was earlier in the season. Frankly, I have been disappointed by his performance the last few weeks. I really expected to see better overall performance and certainly more consistentcy, despite his young age. My rational for West is that, in addition to West being an all-around excellent player and a suitable fit with Hibbert, he is probably the one player that provides Collison the greatest opportunity for success.

We shouldn't be painted into this situation at this time, but it seems to me that Collison is also a player that must be evaluated for long-term suitability in the starting lineup. What better way to do that than by obtaining the one player that should help prove Collison to be the PG that we need?

If Collison doesn't prove to be "the man", then it will turn out that we not only had immediate needs of a starting PF and possibly a starting SG, but that we also still need a new starting PG.

So, we had better hope that Collison can step up and become that player that everyone thought he was or would be. I think the fastest and best way of verifying that is by installing West as our PF.

Califan
03-04-2011, 07:54 AM
After trading Landry, I think the Kings frontcourt is in shambles come this summer. Cousins had turned out to be a bit of a problem, but for better or worse by getting rid of Landry the Kings are commited to him. With the possibility of losing Dalembert to FA, there's no way the Kings can afford to let Thompson walk.

I have been very high on Thompson also, but his prospects of getting away from the Kings are slim.

I'm am more heavily leaning toward West now than ever before. My reason is that I am not all warm and giddy about Collison as I was earlier in the season. Frankly, I have been disappointed by his performance the last few weeks. I really expected to see better overall performance and certainly more consistentcy, despite his young age. My rational for West is that, in addition to West being an all-around excellent player and a suitable fit with Hibbert, he is probably the one player that provides Collison the greatest opportunity for success.

We shouldn't be painted into this situation at this time, but it seems to me that Collison is also a player that must be evaluated for long-term suitability in the starting lineup. What better way to do that than by obtaining the one player that should help prove Collison to be the PG that we need?

If Collison doesn't prove to be "the man", then it will turn out that we not only had immediate needs of a starting PF and possibly a starting SG, but that we also still need a new starting PG.

So, we had better hope that Collison can step up and become that player that everyone thought he was or would be. I think the fastest and best way of verifying that is by installing West as our PF.

I'm not sold on collison, i know it's his sophmore year and point guards make bigger strides after 2 years but i need to see more playmaking ability and consistency from him for him to get me to stop worrying. I do agree david west would be a great pickup but to be honest im afraid of his age and the money he would want, maybe the Front office can sign him for a shorter amount of years i dont know, but i do agree he would be a very very valuable player on this team seeing how young it is and i can see david west helping out with more than just playing good basketball. He could be a good mentor to the younger players and help with things off the court for them.

xIndyFan
03-04-2011, 11:04 AM
. . . My rational for West is that, in addition to West being an all-around excellent player and a suitable fit with Hibbert, he is probably the one player that provides Collison the greatest opportunity for success.

just a quick comment. west is a good player, but doesn't seem to fit the 'smashmouth' style of team the pacers are building. i agree 100% that west is a huge improvement from what the pacers have now. and that he would work well with collison. just don't think he is the guys the pacers want/need in a PF. pacers need a bigger/stonger/more athletic type.

if necessary, west can be a stopgap type player. but i just don't see him worth big long term money.

BringJackBack
03-04-2011, 04:02 PM
If David West isn't smashmouth enough for this team, than neither are almost any other power forwards in the league, including our own starting power forward.

David West is very far from a stop gap in my opinion.. If we get him he's our first or second best player. A stop gap at power forward would be like Antawn Jamison, Carl Landry, David Lee*, etc. who I would actually take over Josh right now because we need talent at certain spots very bad to get over the hump of 36 win land.

*Boy has David Lee been mediocre since last year or what?

Eleazar
03-04-2011, 04:25 PM
After trading Landry, I think the Kings frontcourt is in shambles come this summer. Cousins had turned out to be a bit of a problem, but for better or worse by getting rid of Landry the Kings are commited to him. With the possibility of losing Dalembert to FA, there's no way the Kings can afford to let Thompson walk.

I have been very high on Thompson also, but his prospects of getting away from the Kings are slim.

I'm am more heavily leaning toward West now than ever before. My reason is that I am not all warm and giddy about Collison as I was earlier in the season. Frankly, I have been disappointed by his performance the last few weeks. I really expected to see better overall performance and certainly more consistentcy, despite his young age. My rational for West is that, in addition to West being an all-around excellent player and a suitable fit with Hibbert, he is probably the one player that provides Collison the greatest opportunity for success.

We shouldn't be painted into this situation at this time, but it seems to me that Collison is also a player that must be evaluated for long-term suitability in the starting lineup. What better way to do that than by obtaining the one player that should help prove Collison to be the PG that we need?

If Collison doesn't prove to be "the man", then it will turn out that we not only had immediate needs of a starting PF and possibly a starting SG, but that we also still need a new starting PG.

So, we had better hope that Collison can step up and become that player that everyone thought he was or would be. I think the fastest and best way of verifying that is by installing West as our PF.

If Collison needs certain players around him to be a starting quality PG he isn't a starting quality PG. Bringing West in won't verify that Collison is the future. West will most likely be in his waning years by the time Collison is reaching his prime years, what do we do then when we no longer have West and Collison turns back into a back-up PG? Those are the years that this team should be competing for a championship.

Gamble1
03-04-2011, 05:53 PM
just a quick comment. west is a good player, but doesn't seem to fit the 'smashmouth' style of team the pacers are building. i agree 100% that west is a huge improvement from what the pacers have now. and that he would work well with collison.

Is it just me or is it that PD members are taking this smashmouth basketball talk a little too serious. I mean this is the NBA we are talking about right? We have a 7'2 center who doesn't dunk on anyone, a 6 foot nothin pg, and a franchise player who doesn't play much defense. This smash mouth talk is just a bunch of hoopla for fans to get behind IMO.


If Collison needs certain players around him to be a starting quality PG he isn't a starting quality PG. Bringing West in won't verify that Collison is the future. West will most likely be in his waning years by the time Collison is reaching his prime years, what do we do then when we no longer have West and Collison turns back into a back-up PG? Those are the years that this team should be competing for a championship.
I am all for trading collison or signing a pg that would be upgrade right now but if we do that then we lose the money we could have used to sign a starting sg IMO. Felton would be nice but there aren't too many pgs that would we could realistically get that I would consider an upgrade at a pretty good cost.

xIndyFan
03-04-2011, 05:56 PM
If David West isn't smashmouth enough for this team, than neither are almost any other power forwards in the league, including our own starting power forward.

David West is very far from a stop gap in my opinion.. If we get him he's our first or second best player. A stop gap at power forward would be like Antawn Jamison, Carl Landry, David Lee*, etc. who I would actually take over Josh right now because we need talent at certain spots very bad to get over the hump of 36 win land.

*Boy has David Lee been mediocre since last year or what?

:laugh: not sure i want david lee either. he would be ok, but not what the pacers really need.

just making myself clear. either dwest or dlee would be upgrades from tyler/josh, but neither is a long term solution to the pacer needs. at least imo. pacers need a good low post defender, rebounder, low post scorer. not a pretty boy jump shooter, which lee and west are. ;)

beast23
03-04-2011, 06:00 PM
If Collison needs certain players around him to be a starting quality PG he isn't a starting quality PG. Bringing West in won't verify that Collison is the future. West will most likely be in his waning years by the time Collison is reaching his prime years, what do we do then when we no longer have West and Collison turns back into a back-up PG? Those are the years that this team should be competing for a championship.
I don't think he would regress.

We can either let Collison continue to struggle or we can do what is necessary to take advantage of his best skills. I think most have accepted that he is at his best when running the PnR / PnP.

Please recall that for the past three years we have had players that have had a variety of skills, each forced by a coach to operate within an offensive system without regard to whether they fit or were suitable to perform within that system.

We acquired an excellent young PG with a known skill set. We knew that he was good in half court sets with PnR / PnP. If we are merely going to repeat the sins of the past by ignoring the best skills of our players and not implementing an offensive system that leverages those skills, then Bird could save himself a lot of trouble and his fans a lot of grief by just trading Collison as soon as possible.

Certainly Collison doesn't need West to exercise his best skills. But he certainly does need players that are very good at participating in PnR / PnP to enable himself to be as valuable as he can possibly be to this team.

Without bringing in players that can play the PnR / PnP, Collison may still develop into an excellent PG, but it's certainly going to take longer for him to attain that level in our eyes than it would if we simply obliged him by providing him with the players that enable him to use his best skills.

There aren't more than a handful of PGs are able to excel at viturally all skills associated with PGs. Some excel at running, some excel at "getting their own", some excel at feeding the post, others excel at driving and dishing and others like Collison excel at PnR / PnP. Some even excel at a combination of these skills; not many excel at all of these skills.

If we are going to oblige Collison by acquiring PnR / PnP players, then we may as well get one of the best that is available... David West.

My goal is to make Collison the best "Collison" he can be in the shortest amount of time. Give him a very good PnR / PnP player like West and Collison will probably play at his best level. That does NOT mean that he will not continue to expand his game by improving in other skills and ways of running an offense. But it will make those growing pains a lot less severe while also helping to begin to accumulate a lot more wins for the team.

Regardless of West's age, which I have no problem with whatsoever, or how long West might be with the team, Collison will always require PnR / PnP players because Collison excels at those skills.

BillS
03-04-2011, 06:14 PM
But he certainly does need players that are very good at participating in PnR / PnP to enable himself to be as valuable as he can possibly be to this team.

Without bringing in players that can play the PnR / PnP, Collison may still develop into an excellent PG, but it's certainly going to take longer for him to attain that level in our eyes than it would if we simply obliged him by providing him with the players that enable him to use his best skills.

So, wait - was Collison not successful because he was forced to play a system he wasn't best at due to the evil coach or due to the rest of the players on the floor being unable to play in that system?

I would point out that since Collison is only in his second year it isn't beyond the pale to expect that he should be able to learn to play a system adapted to the rest of the players on the floor - or should a "good" coach pick a single player and force everyone else to play that player's best system?

Gamble1
03-04-2011, 06:33 PM
So, wait - was Collison not successful because he was forced to play a system he wasn't best at due to the evil coach or due to the rest of the players on the floor being unable to play in that system?

I would point out that since Collison is only in his second year it isn't beyond the pale to expect that he should be able to learn to play a system adapted to the rest of the players on the floor - or should a "good" coach pick a single player and force everyone else to play that player's best system?

:picard:

I don't know if you just like controversy or its just that you don't understand what a person is trying to say in there post. Most people would understand what Beast said in his post. Its not one system to suit one player or one system to force all players to play in regardless of their skill set.

ITs give a guy some help with adding one player to run a pnr or pnp well. McBob doesn't get it done and Tyler is just not a starter IMO.

beast23
03-04-2011, 06:41 PM
So, wait - was Collison not successful because he was forced to play a system he wasn't best at due to the evil coach or due to the rest of the players on the floor being unable to play in that system?

I would point out that since Collison is only in his second year it isn't beyond the pale to expect that he should be able to learn to play a system adapted to the rest of the players on the floor - or should a "good" coach pick a single player and force everyone else to play that player's best system?
I believe that Collison is not as successful as he could be at this point because the Pacers do not have players that excel at running the PnR / PnP.

The Pacers are mediocre at offensively executing the PnR and they absolutely stink (most of the time anyway) at defending it.

Certainly Collison needs to learn to play other systems that utilize other PG skill sets. A "good" coach will ALWAYS employ a system that his players are capable of playing and that meshes with their skill sets. Obviously, that is the reason that we do not see an offensive system that is heavily dependent on PnR / PnP.

HOWEVER.... just as the point you were trying to make regarding the PG having to learn / improve within the system that the other players are suitable to play in, I would also make the following point regarding the GM. It is the GM's responsibility to acquire players that will help maximize the performance of the team. The Pacers are not good at PnR, yet have a PG that excels at PnR. Would you not think it wise to acquire a player that meshes with your annointed starting PG to enable the coach to better incorporate the skills of PnR / PnP into the team's offensive system?

BillS
03-04-2011, 06:56 PM
Would you not think it wise to acquire a player that meshes with your annointed starting PG to enable the coach to better incorporate the skills of PnR / PnP into the team's offensive system?

I would think that if you pin all of your ability to run an offense on one or two players being able to run a particular scheme then you are setting yourself up to be easily countered or susceptible to a single point of failure (injury or whatever).

I don't think it is too much to ask a professional basketball point guard to be able to work in more than one system. It isn't as if trade/FA/draft options are ordered off a form that specifies how good they will be at each of the individual offensive styles and you pick one from column A and two from column B, all at the same price and available in multiple quantities.

Collison was picked up because he was a huge improvement over what we had. If he can't develop (and he's only in his second year, let him develop) beyond a one-trick pony, then he isn't the long-term answer.

Would Collison be more effective in a lineup with multiple players effective at the PnR? Sure, but then again Troy Murphy would be effective in a lineup with a C and SF who are lock-down defenders and where the C was a strong post scorer so you had a fantastic inside/outside scoring threat. Any player is "most effective" in a team built around his personal strengths.

I think you continue to improve your positions, you try to get guys who may have a strength in one area but are effective in others, and that way your offense can adjust based on who is available/on the floor/what the opponent tries to do to counter it in the second half.

Versatility is the key, especially at the point guard position.

Please don't interpret that as me feeling we don't need to improve the pick and roll - I've been complaining about it for years. However, this is EXACTLY the kind of opportunity you want a young player to be in - working with a different system than he might be comfortable with, in a supportive environment where things are being designed to be achievable with the skillset on the floor.

BillS
03-04-2011, 07:00 PM
:picard:

I don't know if you just like controversy or its just that you don't understand what a person is trying to say in there post. Most people would understand what Beast said in his post. Its not one system to suit one player or one system to force all players to play in regardless of their skill set.

ITs give a guy some help with adding one player to run a pnr or pnp well. McBob doesn't get it done and Tyler is just not a starter IMO.

No, I'm just trying to point out that people screamed under the previous coach that we didn't run the PnR with implications that it was because he was too stubborn or stupid to do so. Some of us pointed out that we didn't have the personnel to run it, but were pooh-poohed that it was all the coaching. Now that the coaching has changed, we still have the problems - funny about that.

Regarding the "adding one player" see my reply to beast23.

xIndyFan
03-04-2011, 07:06 PM
I don't think he would regress.

We can either let Collison continue to struggle or we can do what is necessary to take advantage of his best skills. I think most have accepted that he is at his best when running the PnR / PnP. . . Regardless of West's age, which I have no problem with whatsoever, or how long West might be with the team, Collison will always require PnR / PnP players because Collison excels at those skills.

my biggest problem with this is who it is trying to accomidate. wouldn't it be better to get a guy that complements roy or paul or danny instead of darren collison. darren is ok, but no more than that. an average PG. because of his size, he is unlikely to get enough better to really matter. does maximizing his talents more important than maximizing a differet, better player.

pacers need to get better defensively, both on-ball and shotblocking and rebounding, especially offensive rebounding from the PF spot. low post scoring would be nice also. pacers should score enough with danny, paul and roy. west doesn't seem to be the guy that fits pacer needs.

guess what i an asking, wouldn't it be better to get a guy that complements the rest of the team and not just darren collison?

beast23
03-04-2011, 07:27 PM
Versatility is the key, especially at the point guard position.

Please don't interpret that as me feeling we don't need to improve the pick and roll - I've been complaining about it for years. However, this is EXACTLY the kind of opportunity you want a young player to be in - working with a different system than he might be comfortable with, in a supportive environment where things are being designed to be achievable with the skillset on the floor.

Thank you.... THAT is exactly the point. We do not do a good job at all of running the PnR. In the past we have had PGs that didn't have a clue how to execute a decent PnR, as well as players at other positions not having the knowledge and/or inclination to contribute in that regard.

I have always believed that the PnR / PnP was the one single aspect of offense that is the most difficult to defend.

We now have one half of the solution for running a decent PnR.... the PG. But it takes two to tango, so to speak. It makes a whole lot of sense to acquire an experienced partner at running the PnR.

This is really no different than what Bird himself has stated. That we have to get better at running the PnR.

Certainly no player comes with an a la carte sign that is attached to him to let teams know exactly what they are acquiring. But come on now, that is exactly what GMs do to decide what players they want to go after. They look at their teams, they make judgements regarding their needs and then they look at any players that might be available to them that can fulfill those needs. So, yeah, it's a process of going through a checklist.

The Pacers finally have an opportunity to make PnR a decent weapon within our offense. I think it would be a major oversight to let this opportunity pass us by.

I don't blame the former coach for not running much PnR... we didn't have the players to run it well... although I would state that there didn't seem to be urgency in trying to develop it either.

BillS
03-04-2011, 07:35 PM
The Pacers finally have an opportunity to make PnR a decent weapon within our offense. I think it would be a major oversight to let this opportunity pass us by.

I don't blame the former coach for not running much PnR... we didn't have the players to run it well... although I would state that there didn't seem to be urgency in trying to develop it either.

I can't argue with that last part, PnR was not something that was going to get used a lot even if we were good at it - it just wasn't suddenly going to appear after the change, either.

However, as you say we have the one piece that seems solid (though we really don't know if Collison himself is a wiz at the PnR or if he's a wiz when surrounded by people who can run it - I notice as many of the pick misses being him refusing the pick as there are of the pick being badly set, really). Why not let the other young guys at the PnR positions get a chance to develop it? Is Josh really too old to learn how to set a pick? In the equivalent of the number of games for a single season, have we already given up on Tyler being able to do it if he calms down enough - which happens to guys in their later years? We've got a Jeff Foster who can teach an excellent pick.

I'd say that if the development for DC is to learn to see the passing or driving lane when there isn't a pick to force one, the development for the other guys is the PnR.

That all being said for the cause of discussion, if we upgrade at PF I would definitely put PnR ability high on the list simply because we can. I wouldn't make it the be-all end-all criterion, though.

Eleazar
03-04-2011, 08:22 PM
I think my post was taken in a different direction than I meant. My post was more of an argument against West than an argument against Collison. It brings up concerns about Collison, if he can only excel in a system based around the PnR he is not our future PG, our team is not built around the PnR. My point was that bring in West just because we know he works well with Collison is not a good long term plan. It is short term plan that puts Collison in a situation that encourages him to not expand. I'm not arguing against bringing in a PF who runs the PnR better than the PFs we have now. That is not a bad idea, the bad idea is to bring in a PF only because he runs the PnR better than the PFs we have now. On top of that the suggested PF is older than every player that is under contract for next season by 3 or 4 years.

beast23
03-05-2011, 01:24 AM
I'm not arguing against bringing in a PF who runs the PnR better than the PFs we have now. That is not a bad idea, the bad idea is to bring in a PF only because he runs the PnR better than the PFs we have now. On top of that the suggested PF is older than every player that is under contract for next season by 3 or 4 years.If your vantage point leads you to believe that West's only strength is the PnR / PnP, I would urge you to reconsider. He is a very good mid-range shooter, is a strong rebounder and is ranked in the top 20 in "clutch" statistics. West is by no means a weak defender, although there are better defenders in the paint at his position. It is possible that among the players available, none may be any better than West defensively.

Mackey_Rose
03-05-2011, 01:45 AM
By the way, David West reportedly suffered a fairly significant ankle injury tonight.

Haven't heard about the X-Ray results yet.

pwee31
03-05-2011, 06:52 PM
It sucks but Jamaal Tinsley is still taking up 5 million in cap space this year. One down side of buying out with multiple years on a contract in that salary is still on the books, with no talent to show for it.

I think the Pacers will work more through trade, than FA signings. I think Mayo is still a real possibility as long as another team doesn't outbid us.

I think the CBA will also have a HUGE impact and possible benefit for us, b/c we'll be a team that can offer immediate cap relief, which has been a wonderful asset recently.

Wizards got a 1st and Hinrich. Timberwolves got Beasley and Anthony Randolph that way. OKC got Maynor from Utah, and I'm sure there were other deals as well.

Huge off-season for the Pacers and I think they'll have some really good options that maybe aren't available right now, but will be. Excited to try and make playoffs, but really excited for the off-season.. PLEASE no lockout

Shade
03-05-2011, 07:39 PM
Would we have enough to sign both J-Rich and Z-Bo?

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 01:52 AM
Tell me what you think, rip it up, whatever you think isn't good or good. I do think that this creates alot better assets for future trades if needed. Please don't mention the CBA, I know we don't know what it will present. I'm just playing around.


Not positive that Lopez is a big help but he has improved alot this year and he's an improvement over Foster and Solo, Plus he gives flexibilty to salary. I think the trade with Jazz is fair, but maybe not. Suns don't need Lopez and Josh would be a great fit in their offense. He can go right in and play for them.


Roy Hibbert C / Robin Lopez C
Zach Randolph PF / Derrick Favors PF / Tyler Hansbrough PF
Paul George SF / Gordon Hayward SF / James Posey SF
OJ Mayo SG / Aaron Afflalo SG / Dahntey Jones SG
Lance Stevenson PG - SG / Darren Collison PG / AJ Price PG

Free Agent: Zach Randolph FA & Aaron Afflalo QO 2.9 mil.

Pacers get: Derrick Favors & Gordon Hayward & 2011 1st rnd pick
Jazz get: Danny Granger & Brandon Rush

Sign & Trade: Josh McRoberts

Pacers get: Robin Lopez
Suns get: Josh McRoberts & 2011 2nd rnd pick

2011 1st rnd pick and ? for OJ Mayo

Release: Solomon Jones & T.J. Ford & Mike Dunleavey & Jeff Foster

Only 1 big long term contract with plenty of flexibility in future years. The actual FA not a big deal on trying to keep if needed. Qualifying Offer shouldn't present to much of a problem. Team Option not a big deal at all.

Free Agents After 2011/12 season --- Lance Stephenson FA, A.J. Price FA, James Posey FA, Tyler Hansbrough TO, Darren Collison TO, Paul George TO, Gordon Hayward TO, Derrick Favors TO, Brook Lopez QO, OJ Mayo QO, Roy Hibbert QO, Dahntey Jones PO.

Head Coach: Mike Brown or Jeff Van Gundy

Foul on Smits
03-07-2011, 03:03 AM
I dont care is ZBo and Marvin Harrison have plans to take over the United State on antique gun at a time, sign ZBO.

Maybe pick up J Rich on the cheap.

ZBO would give this team everything it lacks. Low post scoring, toughness and swag.

Can you imagine all those shots Roy misses, getting gobbled up by ZBo. Man. I bet he'd want to come here too.

CooperManning
03-07-2011, 03:50 AM
Tell me what you think, rip it up, whatever you think isn't good or good. I do think that this creates alot better assets for future trades if needed. Please don't mention the CBA, I know we don't know what it will present. I'm just playing around.


Not positive that Lopez is a big help but he has improved alot this year and he's an improvement over Foster and Solo, Plus he gives flexibilty to salary. I think the trade with Jazz is fair, but maybe not. Suns don't need Lopez and Josh would be a great fit in their offense. He can go right in and play for them.


Roy Hibbert C / Robin Lopez C
Zach Randolph PF / Derrick Favors PF / Tyler Hansbrough PF
Paul George SF / Gordon Hayward SF / James Posey SF
OJ Mayo SG / Aaron Afflalo SG / Dahntey Jones SG
Lance Stevenson PG - SG / Darren Collison PG / AJ Price PG

Free Agent: Zach Randolph FA & Aaron Afflalo QO 2.9 mil.

Pacers get: Derrick Favors & Gordon Hayward & 2011 1st rnd pick
Jazz get: Danny Granger & Brandon Rush

Sign & Trade: Josh McRoberts

Pacers get: Robin Lopez
Suns get: Josh McRoberts & 2011 2nd rnd pick

2011 1st rnd pick and ? for OJ Mayo

Release: Solomon Jones & T.J. Ford & Mike Dunleavey & Jeff Foster

Only 1 big long term contract with plenty of flexibility in future years. The actual FA not a big deal on trying to keep if needed. Qualifying Offer shouldn't present to much of a problem. Team Option not a big deal at all.

Free Agents After 2011/12 season --- Lance Stephenson FA, A.J. Price FA, James Posey FA, Tyler Hansbrough TO, Darren Collison TO, Paul George TO, Gordon Hayward TO, Derrick Favors TO, Brook Lopez QO, OJ Mayo QO, Roy Hibbert QO, Dahntey Jones PO.

Head Coach: Mike Brown or Jeff Van Gundy

Not bad. We would be lucky to get Hayward thrown into a Granger/Favors trade, definitely wouldn't get a first too. I can't see us getting both Affalo and Mayo, but I'd get one of them. Affalo's getting more than the QO though. I like the McBob/Lopez swap if the salaries could line up. Randolph? If we have Favors I wouldn't bother. I start Tyler and wait for Favors to get better.

Eleazar
03-07-2011, 05:00 AM
If your vantage point leads you to believe that West's only strength is the PnR / PnP, I would urge you to reconsider. He is a very good mid-range shooter, is a strong rebounder and is ranked in the top 20 in "clutch" statistics. West is by no means a weak defender, although there are better defenders in the paint at his position. It is possible that among the players available, none may be any better than West defensively.

You still aren't understanding what I am saying. First off you aren't looking at everything I am saying you are only looking at one aspect. Secondly I never said anything about West only being good at the PnR, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

Now to make my point loud and clear so everyone can understand what I am saying without having to actually read more. West is a bad choice because he is so much older than every player on this team that is under contract past this season. We should be looking for the a younger version of West, not West himself. This team is not ready for win now situations. The players we have still need time to develop and grow, and anyone older than Granger should not be looked at as a long term answer. If you aren't getting a possible long term answer it is useless to even consider that player.

Gamble1
03-07-2011, 10:48 AM
You still aren't understanding what I am saying. First off you aren't looking at everything I am saying you are only looking at one aspect. Secondly I never said anything about West only being good at the PnR, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

Now to make my point loud and clear so everyone can understand what I am saying without having to actually read more. West is a bad choice because he is so much older than every player on this team that is under contract past this season. We should be looking for the a younger version of West, not West himself. This team is not ready for win now situations. The players we have still need time to develop and grow, and anyone older than Granger should not be looked at as a long term answer. If you aren't getting a possible long term answer it is useless to even consider that player.
Its sounds like you prescribe to only one way to win now in the NBA which I think is a bit near sighted. The NBA has good playoff teams with veterans and up and coming players mixed in at all positions. The key is to captalize on the talent that you can acquire.

You assume that West won't be worth much 4 years from now or that is value will greatly diminish over that span. As stated before he has played significantly less minutes than most 30 year old NBA players do to how long he played in college.

I would agree though that we should be looking at a younger West type players but I doubt that one is out there for us to get at a reasonable cost. Remember West was producing 17 and 7 by his third year. Do you know of anyone that we can get that is doing that now?

beast23
03-07-2011, 01:14 PM
You still aren't understanding what I am saying. First off you aren't looking at everything I am saying you are only looking at one aspect. Secondly I never said anything about West only being good at the PnR, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

Now to make my point loud and clear so everyone can understand what I am saying without having to actually read more. West is a bad choice because he is so much older than every player on this team that is under contract past this season. We should be looking for the a younger version of West, not West himself. This team is not ready for win now situations. The players we have still need time to develop and grow, and anyone older than Granger should not be looked at as a long term answer. If you aren't getting a possible long term answer it is useless to even consider that player.Good gosh... where to begin.

First of all... this team had better do whatever is necessary to get itself into a "win now situation". That doesn't mean that we contend for a championship next season, but it does mean that the losing stops here. We win more games next year, more than that two years from now and so on. This year and next, we make the playoffs, the year after that we compete for home court advantage. No matter what, we must keep improving.

There are very few opinions that I would disagree more with than "anyone older than Granger should not be looked at as a long term answer". Jesus, did you really say that? A basketball team is not a static entity. It is a living, constantly changing thing, just like each of its individual players. You can't acquire young players and expect them to mature and suddenly be mature at the same rate, just as you can't acquire older players and expect them to still be on the team and play at the same level of performance as your younger players mature. What you can do is to provide your team with versatility across all areas of consideration... age, skill sets, etc that mesh within your team in such a way that your team continues its winning ways while the lesser experienced players continue to improve around your better players.

What the older players have, is that they have already attained their level of maturity. They are not risks and do not represent potential, because they have already proven their abilities and are playing consistently at that level.

And that experience is exactly what you need to assure that your farnchise performs at a high level year after year. Why do you suppose that the Spurs have won 50+ games for something like 10 years in a row?

Teams needs experience and maturity, that's what typically gets you through the end game situations when the score is tight. More often than not, leadership comes from experience and maturity... and our current team is certainly lacking leadership. There is no calming force on this team because its present crop of older players does not contain an outspoken leader. They have those that lead by example, but there is not one player on the team that is looked upon as "having been through it all", that has that experience to be that voice of reason to speak up when it is needed.

One thing that Bird has been constant on throughout the season is his belief that they have their young core in place and that now they need to go out and acquire "a few veterans". Have not you ever analyzed why he makes that statement?

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 01:21 PM
I dont care is ZBo and Marvin Harrison have plans to take over the United State on antique gun at a time, sign ZBO.

Maybe pick up J Rich on the cheap.

ZBO would give this team everything it lacks. Low post scoring, toughness and swag.

Can you imagine all those shots Roy misses, getting gobbled up by ZBo. Man. I bet he'd want to come here too.

LOL, thats some funny stuff right there!!

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 01:37 PM
Would we have enough to sign both J-Rich and Z-Bo?

depends on the CBA right now we would

CableKC
03-07-2011, 01:39 PM
Good gosh... where to begin.

First of all... this team had better do whatever is necessary to get itself into a "win now situation". That doesn't mean that we contend for a championship next season, but it does mean that the losing stops here. We win more games next year, more than that two years from now and so on. This year and next, we make the playoffs, the year after that we compete for home court advantage. No matter what, we must keep improving.

There are very few opinions that I would disagree more with than "anyone older than Granger should not be looked at as a long term answer". Jesus, did you really say that? A basketball team is not a static entity. It is a living, constantly changing thing, just like each of its individual players. You can't acquire young players and expect them to mature and suddenly be mature at the same rate, just as you can't acquire older players and expect them to still be on the team and play at the same level of performance as your younger players mature. What you can do is to provide your team with versatility across all areas of consideration... age, skill sets, etc that mesh within your team in such a way that your team continues its winning ways while the lesser experienced players continue to improve around your better players.

What the older players have, is that they have already attained their level of maturity. They are not risks and do not represent potential, because they have already proven their abilities and are playing consistently at that level.

And that experience is exactly what you need to assure that your farnchise performs at a high level year after year. Why do you suppose that the Spurs have won 50+ games for something like 10 years in a row?

Teams needs experience and maturity, that's what typically gets you through the end game situations when the score is tight. More often than not, leadership comes from experience and maturity... and our current team is certainly lacking leadership. There is no calming force on this team because its present crop of older players does not contain an outspoken leader. They have those that lead by example, but there is not one player on the team that is looked upon as "having been through it all", that has that experience to be that voice of reason to speak up when it is needed.

One thing that Bird has been constant on throughout the season is his belief that they have their young core in place and that now they need to go out and acquire "a few veterans". Have not you ever analyzed why he makes that statement?
This...+1000.

Unless the opportunity presents itself where the Pacers can acquire a young long-term Starting quality SF and/or PF.....my guess is that Bird will look at PF options that will help this Team now rather then later.

Gamble1
03-07-2011, 01:47 PM
depends on the CBA right now we would
The issue I see is that we also have to resign other guys when their rookie contracts are up.

ZBO will command 17 million per year and Richardson may get roughly 10 million per year. Adding those contracts would put us at 63 million for next year which may be close to a LT if there is one.

We have seen in the past that the owner is willing to pay the LT if we are winning so I am not too concerned about it as long as there isn't a hard cap next year.

Edit: We will also have to sign a backup Center this year as well.

vnzla81
03-07-2011, 01:49 PM
The issue I see is that we also have to resign other guys when their rookie contracts are up.

ZBO will command 17 million per year and Richardson may get roughly 10 million per year. Adding those contracts would put us at 63 million for next year which may be close to a LT if there is one.

We have seen in the past that the owner is willing to pay the LT if we are winning so I am not too concerned about it as long as there isn't a hard cap next year.

17mil for Zbo? Hell no!

Gamble1
03-07-2011, 02:04 PM
17mil for Zbo? Hell no!
There is no easy solution to upgrading our pf's. Either pay or you don't. IF you want to trade with anyone then we will have to give up a significant asset ie Hans or PG and maybe a pick.

I would be happy with West because I think he would sign for 12 million per year which is slightly overpaying for him but it would mean that we could sign a guy like Richardson and a quality backup center.

That being said I would be ok if Bird signed Z-bo then acquired a cheaper sg like Mayo via a trade using our first round pick and a player.

When I look at this offseason I see a combination of players that I think would be a good fit for our team (West Richardson and a quality backup center). Some combinations are better than others but when you are dealing with FA's in a open market you don't always get to pick the best combination for your team.

MyFavMartin
03-07-2011, 02:15 PM
By the way, David West reportedly suffered a fairly significant ankle injury tonight.

Haven't heard about the X-Ray results yet.

Guess it was a sprain as he was back yesterday, after Landry had a good game. Coincidence?

beast23
03-07-2011, 03:49 PM
The issue I see is that we also have to resign other guys when their rookie contracts are up.

ZBO will command 17 million per year and Richardson may get roughly 10 million per year. Adding those contracts would put us at 63 million for next year which may be close to a LT if there is one.

We have seen in the past that the owner is willing to pay the LT if we are winning so I am not too concerned about it as long as there isn't a hard cap next year.

Edit: We will also have to sign a backup Center this year as well.

Under the current CBA, you can go over the salary cap to re-sign your own free agents. You cannot do so to sign other FAs. 63M is well over the current salary cap, let alone what that cap might be, or a hard cap might be under a new CBA.

Signing 2 FAs to much more than 20M is not possible within the Pacers salary structure. And certainly starting one out on a contract anywhere near 17M would quickly become salary and luxury tax threshhold suicide.

Gamble1
03-07-2011, 04:15 PM
Under the current CBA, you can go over the salary cap to re-sign your own free agents. You cannot do so to sign other FAs. 63M is well over the current salary cap, let alone what that cap might be, or a hard cap might be under a new CBA.

Signing 2 FAs to much more than 20M is not possible within the Pacers salary structure. And certainly starting one out on a contract anywhere near 17M would quickly become salary and luxury tax threshhold suicide.
So unless we give a team under the cap James Posey it won't work. Nice to know.

I find it odd that currently a third of the league is operating at around 70 million ( half the league is at 68 million) and everyone thinks its going to be alright from a competitive stand point to have a hard cap next year. Even if you grandfather salaries in I still find that the Pacers will still be at a disadvantage unless whoever we sign would only count a certain percentage against the hard cap. So ZBO's 17 mill would be count 75% against the hard cap. I don't know if anyone has brought this concept up before but its the only way as a fan I would support a hard cap with a grandfather rule.

I still think West looks like the best option at PF.

cdash
03-07-2011, 04:17 PM
I want Zach Randolph. Yes, I'm well aware of the risks.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 04:22 PM
I want Zach Randolph. Yes, I'm well aware of the risks.


Randolph and Mayo would be excellent additions if we can make it happen. I'd be willing to throw in next years 1st, and anyone from the Hansbro, McBob, Rush, Stephenson group to help grease the skids.

cdash
03-07-2011, 04:25 PM
Randolph and Mayo would be excellent additions if we can make it happen. I'd be willing to throw in next years 1st, and anyone from the Hansbro, McBob, Rush, Stephenson group to help grease the skids.

I'm not as high on Mayo. I liked the deal of McRoberts/1st for him, but unless we got him for a similar lowball offer I'm not wild about him. I still like PG and Lance at shooting guard next season.

aaronb
03-07-2011, 04:29 PM
I'm not as high on Mayo. I liked the deal of McRoberts/1st for him, but unless we got him for a similar lowball offer I'm not wild about him. I still like PG and Lance at shooting guard next season.


I'm not convinced that PG can handle well enough to play in the back court. Lance is just a far off prospect at this point IMHO.

Mayo gives us something that Larry Bird has never really been interested in getting. A guy who can create his own shot. That alone thinks he would make the rest of the guys on the floor better. Give Danny more space to shoot jumpers. Give Roy and Zbo room to roam in the posts.

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 04:37 PM
It sucks but Jamaal Tinsley is still taking up 5 million in cap space this year. One down side of buying out with multiple years on a contract in that salary is still on the books, with no talent to show for it.

I think the Pacers will work more through trade, than FA signings. I think Mayo is still a real possibility as long as another team doesn't outbid us.

I think the CBA will also have a HUGE impact and possible benefit for us, b/c we'll be a team that can offer immediate cap relief, which has been a wonderful asset recently.

Wizards got a 1st and Hinrich. Timberwolves got Beasley and Anthony Randolph that way. OKC got Maynor from Utah, and I'm sure there were other deals as well.

Huge off-season for the Pacers and I think they'll have some really good options that maybe aren't available right now, but will be. Excited to try and make playoffs, but really excited for the off-season.. PLEASE no lockout

:happydanc Actually, the 5 million is exempted from salary cap. It just shows they are paying it out is all.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 04:45 PM
I want Zach Randolph. Yes, I'm well aware of the risks.

Randolph would be a terrible role model for some of these younger players, especially Stephenson.

I would much rather wait for 2012 than sign Zbo. Wasnt Zbo involved in a ring of marajuana markets in Indy..?

if the pacers sign Randolph i will sincerely consider whether i would want to remain a fan. secondly, one more meltdown from Zbo after signing him to that type of contract and i might not have to decide, b/c the Pacer fan base would likely become extinct and the team move elsewhere.

At the contract price Zbo is likely to recieve, i would hope the pacers FO looks elsewhere.

Yes, I'm well aware of the rewards he could be bring, but ive also had enough of Tinsley, Jackhole, and Artest type players for awhile. I can handle players with off court issues when they are on rookie contracts, but not when were paying them 15M a season.

BillS
03-07-2011, 04:47 PM
:happydanc Actually, the 5 million is exempted from salary cap. It just shows they are paying it out is all.

Where did you come up with this? The buyout is amortized across the remaining years of the contract and applied to the cap space/LT calculation.

cdash
03-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Randolph would be a terrible role model for some of these younger players, especially Stephenson.

I would much rather wait for 2012 than sign Zbo. Wasnt Zbo involved in a ring of marajuana markets in Indy..?

if the pacers sign Randolph i will sincerely consider whether i would want to remain a fan. secondly, one more meltdown from Zbo after signing him to that type of contract and i might not have to decide, b/c the Pacer fan base would likely become extinct and the team move elsewhere.

At the contract price Zbo is likely to recieve, i would hope the pacers FO looks elsewhere.

Yes, I'm well aware of the rewards he could be bring, but ive also had enough of Tinsley, Jackhole, and Artest type players for awhile. I can handle players with off court issues when they are on rookie contracts, but not when were paying them 15M a season.

I told you I knew the risks. I took that stuff into consideration.

PacersPride
03-07-2011, 04:51 PM
I told you I knew the risks. I took that stuff into consideration.

im not trying to sway your opinion, im telling you im aware of the rewards and not interested in ZBo at 15M for the next 5 seasons.

pacer4ever
03-07-2011, 07:52 PM
:happydanc Actually, the 5 million is exempted from salary cap. It just shows they are paying it out is all.
:bs:
No it is not it is still counted on the pay roll and counts toward the cap.

If it didnt teams like the Wizardscwould have just bought Gilbert Arenas out. Rather than trading for a = bad contract.

Pacer Fan
03-07-2011, 08:35 PM
It sucks but Jamaal Tinsley is still taking up 5 million in cap space this year. One down side of buying out with multiple years on a contract in that salary is still on the books, with no talent to show for it.




:bs:
No it is not it is still counted on the pay roll and counts toward the cap.

If it didnt teams like the Wizardscwould have just bought Gilbert Arenas out. Rather than trading for a = bad contract.

LOL, I know, I just thought it was a worthless comment, I think we all know this by now.

:dance::dance::dance:

MyFavMartin
03-08-2011, 02:17 PM
Any chance we have of getting Nene or Tyson Chandler this summer?

Gamble1
03-08-2011, 02:37 PM
Any chance we have of getting Nene or Tyson Chandler this summer?
The nuggets team salary will be 41 million. They can afford to pay him what he is asking.


by Mike Prada (http://www.sbnation.com/authors/mike-prada)
As NBA trade rumors (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/2/15/1995192/nba-trade-rumors-2011-deadline) continue to fly leading up to Thursday's deadline, there remain a lot of teams that could really use more size. It's the most prized commodity in this league, and there are inevitably more teams trying to acquire it than teams that want to give it up. In that vein, the most important player on the trade market, outside of Carmelo Anthony of course, may be his former teammate Nene.
Unlike Anthony, Nene would like to stay with the Nuggets. The Nuggets agree, according to Chris Tomasson of Fanhouse (http://nba.fanhouse.com/2011/02/23/nuggets-masai-ujiri-we-got-killed-on-carmelo-deal/), and are trying to work out a contract extension with him. Nene reiterated on Tuesday that he wants to stay with the team, but as always, it is a matter of dollars and cents. He can opt out of his contract after the year, and would like to have a new deal in place before the new CBA.

"This is where I want to be,'' Nene told FanHouse after Tuesday's game. "I have family here. Today, I'm here. Tomorrow, I can't control. I'm here right now.''

When it comes to a contract extension, Nene said, "I definitely hope I get one.''
Nene is said (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Au0Ze.6JrqCkLgC5UtSByeE5nYcB?slug=ys-tradebuzz022211) to be seeking a five-year contract worth close to what Joakim Noah and Al Horford signed for last summer ($60 million). But if a contract extension cannot be worked out, then the Nuggets may look to trade Nene and get some value back for him before losing him for nothing. If so, there will be a lot of suitors lined up for him. Adrian Wojnarowski reports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Au0Ze.6JrqCkLgC5UtSByeE5nYcB?slug=ys-tradebuzz022211) that the Rockets, Heat and Thunder lead the way, but there are undoubtedly more. As the trade deadline grows closer, this is a situation that bears watching.


The Mavs team salary will be around 57 million and you know money is no big deal for Cuban. If you want one of those guys you are probably going to have to offer up Hibbert along with other assets IMO.

MyFavMartin
03-08-2011, 04:28 PM
As from Dumb and Dumber, "So you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah!"