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View Full Version : Roy: The feeling of the newness is wearing off a little bit



Unclebuck
02-28-2011, 07:53 AM
Roy is saying they were getting pumped up the first fw games, well in the NBA you cannot get pumped up 82 games.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110228/SPORTS04/102280315/1062/SPORTS04/Reality-starts-setting-Vogel-Pacers

Reality starts setting in for Vogel, Pacers


by Mike Wells
The honeymoon is over for Frank Vogel and Co.

The little things -- like defensive breakdowns and bad shots -- the Indiana Pacers got away with over the past month are now being exposed.

The Pacers were schooled by 38-year-old ageless veteran Grant Hill and beaten by Channing Frye's 23-foot jumper at the buzzer in their 110-108 overtime loss to the Phoenix Suns on Sunday afternoon at Conseco Fieldhouse.

Frye took a pass from point guard Steve Nash, pump faked Brandon Rush into the air and launched the shot as time expired.

The Suns celebrated as the Pacers stood dumbfounded.

"We were looking for Channing off a little flare and he got it," Nash said. "(Rush) switched late and he was able to pump fake and still get off a pretty good look."

Frye's long two-pointer just capped an afternoon in which the Suns pick-and-rolled their way to any shot they wanted. The Pacers couldn't contain Nash and didn't defend the perimeter shooters well enough.

Nash had 13 assists and only two turnovers. Hill had his best scoring game in six years.

Hill had 34 points, including a 3-pointer to tie the score late in regulation, on 14-of-26 shooting.

"Hell of a game," Vogel said about Hill. "Nash gets him involved. He gets himself involved, too. He runs like he's 22 years old. He played a great game."

Forward Danny Granger led the Pacers with 25 points and point guard A.J. Price came off the bench to score 18 points while playing the final 20 minutes of the game.

The Pacers turned over the ball 21 times.

"It's tough to lose a game like this," Vogel said. "We believe we're going to the playoffs. We just didn't get it done today."
The Pacers (26-32) jumped to a 9-3 start under Vogel, but dropped weekend games to Utah and Phoenix.

The Pacers are trying to hold off Charlotte for the final playoff spot in the Eastern Conference.

The Pacers are not playing with the same intensity and focus that they had early on. The Jazz bullied the Pacers in the paint Friday and the Suns beat them with fundamentals.

"The feeling of the newness is wearing off a little bit," Pacers center Roy Hibbert said. "Things are changing a little bit. I've felt that change the past two or three games. We're getting exposed. We were getting pumped up in the first couple of games after the change. We have to get back to that."

Part of the reason behind the Pacers' success was their relatively easy schedule.

Eight of their nine victories were against teams with a losing record. The Pacers will have to refocus if they expect to end a four-year playoff drought because they play 11 of 18 March games on the road. The back end of six back-to-backs are on the road.
"This is going to show what we're really made of, I think, in terms of if we're going to be a playoff team or not," Price said.
"We're in every game, but it's not enough to be in every game. We need to be winning. We have to finish games off better."

Trader Joe
02-28-2011, 08:39 AM
Anyone else feel like Roy is sitting on that precarious peak where he could go tumbling off into mental and emotional oblivion without any warning?

Unclebuck
02-28-2011, 08:42 AM
Anyone else feel like Roy is sitting on that precarious peak where he could go tumbling off into mental and emotional oblivion without any warning?


Everyone loves his emotion, but emotion only carries a player so far.

bellisimo
02-28-2011, 08:50 AM
Roy is definitely carrying his emotions on his sleeves which is really hurting him in this league - he needs to work out all this mental blocks/etc

pizza guy
02-28-2011, 09:34 AM
I don't feel like this comment is indicative of someone with unstable emotions, but I do feel that he needs to figure out how to stabilize himself over an 82 game season.

We all knew that this wall was coming, and Roy just told us it's here. Now, these young guys have to figure out how to overcome it (Vogel included).

EDIT: More talent on the roster might be the best way to overcome this wall.

Pacerized
02-28-2011, 09:42 AM
I never thought that all of Roy's issues were JOB. We all go through highs and lows. How much better would you be at your job if you kept the same level of enthusiasm that you had on your first day, or the first day of your big promotion. You have to find a way to keep giving it your all. Roy needs figure out how deal with physical contact as well. Maybe he needs to get mad and come back harder or pick up some traits from Tyler.

ksuttonjr76
02-28-2011, 09:43 AM
Personally, I can't really complain. They've been competitive in all the losses. The Detroit game seems to be the only that got away from them from the tip.

McKeyFan
02-28-2011, 09:55 AM
Roy's good. Would you rather him be in denial?

He's just stating the obvious. Now it's time to get in there and make something happen.

xIndyFan
02-28-2011, 12:27 PM
. . . EDIT: More talent on the roster might be the best way to overcome this wall.

:iagree: this. pacers have some good players, but not enough. they will play better with more better players.

yoadknux
02-28-2011, 01:00 PM
:iagree: this. pacers have some good players, but not enough. they will play better with more better players.
Really?

PR07
02-28-2011, 01:11 PM
What he's saying is true, but I wish he wouldn't air out all of our laundry to the press so often. I think the team has lost some energy, teams have adjusted to the Vogel Pacers, and there may be some lingering headache from the failed Mayo trade.

Trader Joe
02-28-2011, 01:22 PM
I mean Roy sounds like a fan here, not a player. Maybe that's just me though. I feel like the "newness" should be a fan concept not something running through a players mind.

BRushWithDeath
02-28-2011, 01:57 PM
Anyone else feel like Roy is sitting on that precarious peak where he could go tumbling off into mental and emotional oblivion without any warning?

Roy and "mental toughness" will never be in the same sentence without "lack of" in front of it.

He's an emotional rollercoaster.

He'll celebrate a block in the second quarter against the Cavs like he just won game 7 of the finals then in the same game he'll lament a bad stretch like his dog just got run over.

PacersPride
02-28-2011, 02:34 PM
The issue with Hibbert is he is 24/25 and is trying to carry this team like a franchise center. Even Yao Ming needed time to become a dominant player and he is 7'6.

Hibbert is still 2-3 seasons away from reaching his prime. The pacers need leadership and veteran experience and the only guys on the roster who the young guys can look to is Danny or Foster, and maybe Dahntay Jones. This team needs another veteran in the starting lineup.

folks say West is too old, but not everyone on the team has to be 24 years old. West is 31, KG Allen and Shaq are all older as well but who would not have picked them up at 31 years old to add to your team. West isnt in that group but he is still solid.

this team also needs an experienced coach who can work with young talent. i like vogel but this is not a veteran team like spolstra has in miami, a coach with solid experience is a must.

I like Roys attitude and willingness to get better, but he cannot carry this team on his back every night this early in his career.

McRob and Rush are solid backup players but not quality starters. DC/Roy are good players but still too young to be considered the 2nd best option on a team. Granger needs some help from another veteran player or young all-star talent.

the "newness" or "honeymoon" has nothing to do with it. Pacers need leadership and experience from both the coaching staff and players and right now they dont have it. nvrtheless, i prefer this over what obrien was trying to do by playing vets ford/posey/dunleavy minutes each game.

if we can add a solid coach and veteran player with all star experience, pacers are capable of winning 45 games next year and will only continue to improve from there. Hibbert needs a PF with experience next too him, or at least someone who can take the pressure off him offensively.

i wasnt able to watch the game yesterday but read mcrob and foster were in the game together at the end. i wonder if vogel and staff are considering starting tyler, trying to get a look at how well foster/mcrob play together.

with the recent change from Dun to Rush (offense to defense essentially), we might need to add more offense to the first unit.

naptownmenace
02-28-2011, 03:13 PM
Pacers continue to struggle against teams over .500

This isn't much of a surprise. We've probably all noticed it. However, I'm not sure that everyone realizes how big of a problem it's really been this season.

The Pacers last win over a .500 team was against an injury battered Portland team over 3 weeks and 12 games ago.

They are 8-24 against teams .500 and above and this includes 2 wins over Philly who just recently climbed above .500 for the first time all season but whom the Pacers beat while they were under .500.

This is a big problem because 9 of the 18 games they play in March are against teams over .500. This is going to be a critical month and if they intend on making the playoffs instead of watching Charlotte leapfrog them, they'll need to start winning a few of these games to keep their playoffs hopes alive.

Is anybody else worried that the Pacers haven't made any improvements where it counts (in the win column) in games against tougher competition?

Speed
02-28-2011, 03:21 PM
I don't think this team is that good. Sorry to over simplify things. The talent and skill just isn't there. It's not consistent, it's completely dependant upon matchups across the board.

Danny is a legit scorer in the league. Theres not one other player you can count on to give you something on a given night. Maybe Jeff, you know he's going to rebound the ball offensively.

Other than that you have a poor rebounding PF, an inconsistent scoring Center, an average Point Guard, and a two guard spot thats manned by a guy who should be a back up.

At this moment in time, this group isn't good enough to be good against good teams.

This isn't condemning them to this moving forward, but they really don't have anything special on a consistent basis.

Danny can score at this level.

Jeff can offensive rebound, still.

Tyler will make a difference in aggressiveness every other night.

Every other player will play good or bad based on match up.

Paul George gives you hope he has the chance to have an impact every night, in a couple of years.

Darksider? I guess. It's just something I think I just now really really have accepted.

It's the reason you make a Mayo type trade AND pick up a talented PF this summer.

Bird still has alot of work to do and there is alot of patience still needed while guys get better.

Kstat
02-28-2011, 03:29 PM
If you have to pump yourself up with external forces in order to maximize your potential, you have issues that need to be addressed.

Doddage
02-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Roy, my man, you really have to stay focused and stop with the overanalysis.

BillS
02-28-2011, 03:35 PM
If you figure that half the teams in the league will be under .500, and you go with the conventional wisdom that more of those teams are in the East so we play them more often, aren't we still (for this year) going to be in fairly decent shape if we beat teams under .500? I mean, I'd have to do some analysis of the remaining schedule &c, but one would expect a .500 team to lose games against the over .500 teams and win games against the under .500, wouldn't you? Isn't that the definition of an average team?

In other words, I'm not going to panic because the team as currently constructed has trouble with teams with winning records.

MyFavMartin
02-28-2011, 04:10 PM
Roy did extremely well getting in shape over the summer and increasing muscle and dropping weight, particularly fat... This is good energy-wise and quickness-wise; however, I feel like he needs to gain weight (i.e., muscle) this summer to help him hold his position in the low block... Bulky defenders like Al Jefferson are able to muscle him out of his comfort range... Else, he needs to learn to re-post by beating his man to the spot (i.e., a new spot). Can we feed the post from the top of the key/shoulder with him criss-crossing the lane from one low block to the other?

Else, he should learn to be comfortable further out and maybe square up and take the short (8-10') jumper. Establish that and he should be able to throw in a pump fake with the slow big guys and maybe one quick dribble to the basket to draw the foul.

Eddie Gill
02-28-2011, 04:46 PM
Maybe Roy isn't as "unstable" as people think. Maybe he's just more cerebral/thoughtful/analytical than people expect professional athletes to be. I don't live in Indy so I don't get to hear all the post game interviews, but he's always struck me as a smart, well-spoken guy (dude did go to Georgetown FWIW). This specific quote doesn't strike me as a guy being unstable as much as it does a guy who's very in touch with himself and the general mood of team. Its the kind of thing most athletes don't tell the press, but everyone knows. I'm not going to call a guy unstable that.

I'll call him unstable for the reasons BRushWithDeath mentioned, but not this. Roy's instability seems to be contained to the court (but wtf do I know)

bulldog
02-28-2011, 05:32 PM
If you have to pump yourself up with external forces in order to maximize your potential, you have issues that need to be addressed.

Or if external forces help motivate you during an 82 game season, you are normal.

Doesn't every team experience a week or two of high energy performances after a coaching change followed by a return to the usual?

Everyone is reading way too much into this.

heywoode
02-28-2011, 05:40 PM
Sometimes it is nice to have in-depth detailed analyses and talks about a player or team, but sometimes I think this place just races around a discussion so much it starts feeding on itself. I'm not gonna look at every bad choice, bad shot, bad sound byte, or anything else about Roy (or anyone else for that matter) and judge him or start making assumptions or accusations.

The simplest way for me to say how I feel about Roy is that I like the guy. I like his game. I like his personality, or what I've seen of it thus far. I like his work ethic, and I like that he usually has something to say about what's currently going on when asked. That tells me he's engaged in what's going on and has emotional commitment to the situation he's in and the team he plays for. I like that too.

We are all humans, and we all would love to take back a hundred things a day that didn't go as we planned or that we just didn't think before doing/saying something. We're gonna have ups, downs, and blahs. It's fine.


Bottom line is, I'm thrilled to have a player of Roy's talent level, size, and character playing for the team I love. Everything else I can deal with.


Or if external forces help motivate you during an 82 game season, you are normal.

Doesn't every team experience a week or two of high energy performances after a coaching change followed by a return to the usual?

Everyone is reading way too much into this.

YUP.

ballism
02-28-2011, 06:37 PM
We could bring O'Brien back and fire him again, maybe that would help.

PacersPride
02-28-2011, 10:29 PM
We could bring O'Brien back and fire him again, maybe that would help.

joking aside, anyone think obrien would make a good college coach? i was thinking with his 3pt philosophy and the the 3pt line being much closer, he might be a good coach for a college team.

sure as hell cant be worse than his nba tenure.

Trophy
02-28-2011, 10:42 PM
They better wake up.

I still think Vogel is the what this team has been looking for.

They're just in a slump and aren't playing like a team.

It's starting with DC not slowing down the offense lately. That's something Vogel wants from him because it's better for him and the team's success.

We really need to play like we care and not throw the ball away with wimpy passes. Also, big guys need to box out. There's no reason why little guards should be coming in for offensive rebounds.

Defensively, it's just terrible. No one is aggressive or stays on their man. This team has players that are capable of playing solid defense every game. Danny slacks off, but steps up when it's need most. DC has the potential to become a better defender with his speed and good hands. Roy's height is an advantage.

The team just lacks consistency from each game.

The team needs to be pumped up. Vogel needs to do what he did when he first got here. That was getting guys excited and eager to get into the playoffs comfortably.

Sookie
02-28-2011, 10:48 PM
Also, Vogel learns from other coaches, btw.

He saw how well Utah defended the PnR, and tried that tactic with Foster and Price (and Josh and Hans and Price at points too) and it worked extremely well.

I also like, that when he says he's going to do something, he does it.

pacer4ever
02-28-2011, 11:19 PM
The team just isnt that good talent wise. The only way we win is out working people they better start doing this.

bulldog
02-28-2011, 11:56 PM
Also, Vogel learns from other coaches, btw.

He saw how well Utah defended the PnR, and tried that tactic with Foster and Price (and Josh and Hans and Price at points too) and it worked extremely well.

I also like, that when he says he's going to do something, he does it.

Fair enough, but every time you post something like this, first go back to the archive and read all the statements O'brien made at the beginning of his tenure. People were eating that stuff up. And he even followed through on a lot of them.

Talk is cheap. Changing a gameplan is easy. Winning is hard.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 12:48 AM
Fair enough, but every time you post something like this, first go back to the archive and read all the statements O'brien made at the beginning of his tenure. People were eating that stuff up. And he even followed through on a lot of them.

Talk is cheap. Changing a gameplan is easy. Winning is hard.

I was referring to saying he was going to play Lance, and actually doing it.

Yea, I remember last season when O'brien said the same thing about AJ..I think he got three weeks straight of DNPs.

The kids got to learn how to win.

I said it before with JOB here, and I'll say it again. Coaches don't ever win a game for a team, but they can sure as heck lose one. They have to put their team's in the best position to win, and hope the players carry it out. Obrien didn't put the team in the best position to win, Vogel..from what I've seen, does that pretty well, even though he's a newbie coach.

Peck
03-01-2011, 03:35 AM
I stick to what I said at the beginning of the season.

I am not looking at the win/loss record and while I would like to see the playoffs I will say that it isn't the end all be all of the season for me.

I'm looking for style of play & player development.

Under O'Brien I did not like the style of play and I felt that while some players were developing individually the team as a unit was not able to and frankly some of the younger players were not either.

Under Vogel I like the style of play & I feel that every single night the young guys are out there as a group learning. Even tough hard to swallow losses are a learning experiance for the team. What I think people have to be patient about is that these are also learning experiances for our coach as well.

Don't get me wrong I haven't been jumping for joy at the recent slump of play, but I honestly can look out there now and say "it's a young team and they are going to be inconsistant" and not be lying and not feel embittered about being told it's a young team while over half the young team either didn't see the floor or saw it for very limited min.

The only down side that I see right now is actually beyond the Pacers control and that is the idiots in Memphis released the trade to the public and I am not certain that it hasn't affected Josh. I'm not using that as an excuse btw, he shouldn't let it impact his mental play, however he is human and it is possible he let it distract him. I'm not saying this has happened but the last two games he has not seemed like himself.

xIndyFan
03-01-2011, 08:55 AM
. . . The only down side that I see right now is actually beyond the Pacers control and that is the idiots in Memphis released the trade to the public and I am not certain that it hasn't affected Josh. I'm not using that as an excuse btw, he shouldn't let it impact his mental play, however he is human and it is possible he let it distract him. I'm not saying this has happened but the last two games he has not seemed like himself.

josh is such an energy player that he has to play so very hard to be effective. in josh's defense, i don't see how anyone can play at that level of effort for 82 games. josh's level of effort has fallen off before this season. just before JOB benched him. it is totally understandable that he would be disappointed that the pacers almost traded him. and that it reduced the level of his effort. but he does need to get back to the 'just short of frenetic/frantic' effort level that is his game.

Unclebuck
03-01-2011, 09:05 AM
This from Wells concerns me.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/27/the-pacers-have-to-turn-it-back-on-again/



Personality wise, Jim O’Brien and Vogel are two different people. O’Brien was more like a dictator. Vogel definitely has more of a laid-back approach with the players.


A laid back approach will work for awhile especially after a "dictator", but in the long run I don't think a laid back approach will work.

flox
03-01-2011, 10:08 AM
I stick to what I said at the beginning of the season.

I am not looking at the win/loss record and while I would like to see the playoffs I will say that it isn't the end all be all of the season for me.

I'm looking for style of play & player development.

Under O'Brien I did not like the style of play and I felt that while some players were developing individually the team as a unit was not able to and frankly some of the younger players were not either.

Under Vogel I like the style of play & I feel that every single night the young guys are out there as a group learning. Even tough hard to swallow losses are a learning experiance for the team. What I think people have to be patient about is that these are also learning experiances for our coach as well.

Don't get me wrong I haven't been jumping for joy at the recent slump of play, but I honestly can look out there now and say "it's a young team and they are going to be inconsistant" and not be lying and not feel embittered about being told it's a young team while over half the young team either didn't see the floor or saw it for very limited min.

The only down side that I see right now is actually beyond the Pacers control and that is the idiots in Memphis released the trade to the public and I am not certain that it hasn't affected Josh. I'm not using that as an excuse btw, he shouldn't let it impact his mental play, however he is human and it is possible he let it distract him. I'm not saying this has happened but the last two games he has not seemed like himself.
I think the trade would have gotten out even without Memphis releasing it. Regardless- I would have thought that Josh would have been told that he was being traded, a la Ford and Rush last year.

Hicks
03-01-2011, 10:13 AM
He was told. There's an article about it either on Pacers.com or Indystar that has quotes from Josh saying as much.

With that said, he's looked the same to me.

flox
03-01-2011, 10:30 AM
If you figure that half the teams in the league will be under .500, and you go with the conventional wisdom that more of those teams are in the East so we play them more often, aren't we still (for this year) going to be in fairly decent shape if we beat teams under .500? I mean, I'd have to do some analysis of the remaining schedule &c, but one would expect a .500 team to lose games against the over .500 teams and win games against the under .500, wouldn't you? Isn't that the definition of an average team?

In other words, I'm not going to panic because the team as currently constructed has trouble with teams with winning records.

I think Vogel has the team and the fans believing that the team is stronger than .500- hence the frustration.

naptownmenace
03-01-2011, 10:48 AM
I think Vogel has the team and the fans believing that the team is stronger than .500- hence the frustration.

I don't have a problem with Vogel telling them this. He's trying to build their confidence up which is very important for a young developing team. However, the fact is, they are not a stronger than .500 team. I'll say it again, they are 8-24 against teams .500 and above and they are only 18 -12 against teams under .500. The truth is that they are a .500-level average team that is better than below average teams.

The good news is that they've been better under Vogel against sub-.500 teams than they were with O'Brien. Also, if I counted correctly, they only have about 9 more games against teams over .500 so they can still make the playoffs as long as they take care of their business against the lower ranked teams.

Peck
03-01-2011, 11:27 AM
He was told. There's an article about it either on Pacers.com or Indystar that has quotes from Josh saying as much.

With that said, he's looked the same to me.

After the fact. There is the interview with Josh that said he was getting his hair cut. When he got up and checked his phone there were 15 missed calles and several missed text messages. He read his text from his agent first that said you have been traded and by the time he scrolled through all of his text before he left the barber shop it said nevermind.

Not exactly a sit down conversation.

naptownmenace
03-01-2011, 11:37 AM
After the fact. There is the interview with Josh that said he was getting his hair cut. When he got up and checked his phone there were 15 missed calles and several missed text messages. He read his text from his agent first that said you have been traded and by the time he scrolled through all of his text before he left the barber shop it said nevermind.

Not exactly a sit down conversation.

TPTB are under no obligation to have a sit down conversation with their players before trading them. I can especially understand why they wouldn't tell them in this instance, especially since it was going down to the wire and it wasn't a done deal.

Peck
03-01-2011, 11:49 AM
TPTB are under no obligation to have a sit down conversation with their players before trading them. I can especially understand why they wouldn't tell them in this instance, especially since it was going down to the wire and it wasn't a done deal.

Not saying they should, and again for the record I'm not saying Josh is right if he let it effect his mindset.

In fact the whole point to me was that I was upset with Memphis for issuing a press release about it prior to it being done.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 12:52 PM
This from Wells concerns me.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/27/the-pacers-have-to-turn-it-back-on-again/



A laid back approach will work for awhile especially after a "dictator", but in the long run I don't think a laid back approach will work.

Ya Tony Dungy would dis agree so would Phil Jackson and Doc Rivers ur point isnt valid.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 12:56 PM
This from Wells concerns me.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/27/the-pacers-have-to-turn-it-back-on-again/



A laid back approach will work for awhile especially after a "dictator", but in the long run I don't think a laid back approach will work.

Yea, like Phil Jackson. A laid back approach hasn't worked well for him at all.

I think the players need to feel free to play and be allowed to make mistakes. Vogel lets them do that.

Vogel, in general, makes very good coaching decisions, learns from other coaches, gets the guys motivated..and he's just as young in coaching (actually younger) as the team is. He's going to make mistakes too. But in general, his decisions have given our team the best chance to win, all while developing the younger guys. I can't ask for more than that.

The fact that he's got us and the team believing they should beat teams better than them, says enough about what kind of motivator he is.

edit: I also love that he's saving their legs and not having them practice after back to backs. Smart.

Unclebuck
03-01-2011, 01:24 PM
Ya Tony Dungy would dis agree so would Phil Jackson and Doc Rivers ur point isnt valid.


Football is completely different - the interaction between a football player and his coach is so much more disconnected just because there are so many players and only 1 head coach. Football players interact with their position coaches.

I've seen Phil Jackson yell more at individual players during a game, usually coming into a timeout than any coach in the NBA. He might be laid back in some regards, but not always.

I don't consider Doc laid back at all.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 01:33 PM
Football is completely different - the interaction between a football player and his coach is so much more disconnected just because there are so many players and only 1 head coach. Football players interact with their position coaches.

I've seen Phil Jackson yell more at individual players during a game, usually coming into a timeout than any coach in the NBA. He might be laid back in some regards, but not always.

I don't consider Doc laid back at all.

Doc isnt laid back? lol he doesnt start pratice till 1pm.

FYI even laid back coaches yell Vogel yells a lot during games. In football normaly the assits coaches yell at the players but the Colts coaching staff is aid back compared to others same with the bears. Laid back isnt about yelling it is a style.

idioteque
03-01-2011, 01:39 PM
This from Wells concerns me.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/27/the-pacers-have-to-turn-it-back-on-again/



A laid back approach will work for awhile especially after a "dictator", but in the long run I don't think a laid back approach will work.

What does laid back even mean? How do you quantify this? I respect you as a poster on this board Buck, but you're so wedded to JOB it's somewhat maddening. Without explaining what laid back even means this comes off as petty, uninformed, and vacuous (and I realize part of that is Wells' fault).

Vogel appears with his lineups to be putting this team in the best possible position to win every night and showing a lot of emotion and will when doing so. This team is young and mistake prone and not supremely talented right now. I honestly don't know what more you could ask for our coach.

Unclebuck
03-01-2011, 01:40 PM
Doc isnt laid back? lol he doesnt start pratice till 1pm.

FYI even laid back coaches yell Vogel yells a lot during games. In football normaly the assits coaches yell at the players but the Colts coaching staff is aid back compared to others same with the bears. Laid back isnt about yelling it is a style.


What time you start practice has nothing to do with anything.

I suppose we need to define what we are talking about here. I just fear that Frank might be going too far in the opposite direction of what O'Brien was, that is all.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 01:43 PM
What time you start practice has nothing to do with anything.

I suppose we need to define what we are talking about here. I just fear that Frank might be going too far in the opposite direction of what O'Brien was, that is all.

put it this way laid back coaches dont freak out and bench players over a single mistake. JOB was a control freak Frank isnt.

ballism
03-01-2011, 02:01 PM
To me, Greg Popovich is the classic laid back coach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25VsDpcx3Cs&NR=1&feature=fvwp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25VsDpcx3Cs&NR=1&feature=fvwp)

But laid back can mean so many different things. Not sure what was meant in this context. Laid back style of communication - cool. Not holding players accountable - worrisome.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 02:03 PM
To me, Greg Popovich is the classic laid back coach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25VsDpcx3Cs&NR=1&feature=fvwp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25VsDpcx3Cs&NR=1&feature=fvwp)

But laid back can mean so many different things. Not sure what was meant in this context. Laid back style of communication - cool. Not holding players accountable - worrisome.

Bingo that is what i am talking about with laid back. They will yell at you and get mad sometimes. but they will alway give a reason they benched you and will tell you how to improve. They talk to you face to face not via the media look JOB.

gummy
03-01-2011, 02:22 PM
All that quote really tells us is that Vogel has a more relaxed style than JOB. If you see "laid back" and conflate it with "permissive" then of course you're going to be concerned. I'd be concerned too if I thought that was what it meant. I don't jump there when I see this because I've not read or seen anything that makes me think Vogel is permissive. I read and heard a lot about clear, calm communication about expectations with the players. I see him yelling at the guys when he feels he needs to during games. I've not seen anything on the court or head anything in the media that makes me worry that Vogel is letting guys run roughshod over him as a coach.

You can hold people accountable without being a dictator. In fact you can often do it better if you're not a dictator. But I don't want to go too far afield into social psychology. The main point I want to make is that the quote doesn't really tell us much unless you take it out of the context it is in (as a comparison to JOB), insert your own definition of "laid back" in general and then spin accordingly. Sadly what that process tells us it more about your linguistic views and experiences than what Vogel is actually doing on a day to day basis. Seems more profitable to me to judge whether or not Vogel is doing something we should be worried about by the words and actions of the players and coaching staff, not on a thin quote like this.

Unclebuck
03-01-2011, 02:30 PM
Bottomline on this question of Frank being laid back. We do not know yet if it is a good laid back or a bad laid back. I fear if Frank is brought back as the coach next season we won't find out the answer until about 30 games in next season.

Bball
03-01-2011, 03:39 PM
I just fear that Frank might be going too far in the opposite direction of what O'Brien was, that is all.

The opposite of a bad coach is a good coach. The opposite of a really bad coach is a really good coach.

I'm fine with Vogel being the polar opposite of Jim O'Brien.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 03:40 PM
Bottomline on this question of Frank being laid back. We do not know yet if it is a good laid back or a bad laid back. I fear if Frank is brought back as the coach next season we won't find out the answer until about 30 games in next season.

I am proably one of the few who dont really like Vogel on here. I dont dis like him but disagree with some of his decsions.

Pacergeek
03-01-2011, 03:47 PM
I am proably one of the few who dont really like Vogel on here. I dont dis like him but disagree with some of his decsions.

i am with you on Vogel, and I am not sold on him being the permanent HC. it wasn't an accident that JOB was fired right before we had all of those "winnable" games lined up. management knew that it would be a good story for the Pacers to finally win some games after the long overdue coaching change. Our franchise needed momentum, even thought it was brief. People forget that JOB also had the Pacers winning games in clusters during his coaching days here.

My biggest complaint with Vogel is the defense. How many layups can one team give up? seems like every game we have lost recently, the opposing team has scored most of their points on layups. Greg Monroe killed us, and he is only a rookie. You would think a good coach would be able to slow down Monroe.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 04:11 PM
i am with you on Vogel, and I am not sold on him being the permanent HC. it wasn't an accident that JOB was fired right before we had all of those "winnable" games lined up. management knew that it would be a good story for the Pacers to finally win some games after the long overdue coaching change. Our franchise needed momentum, even thought it was brief. People forget that JOB also had the Pacers winning games in clusters during his coaching days here.

My biggest complaint with Vogel is the defense. How many layups can one team give up? seems like every game we have lost recently, the opposing team has scored most of their points on layups. Greg Monroe killed us, and he is only a rookie. You would think a good coach would be able to slow down Monroe.

That is my main concern. But also the way he doesnt call plays for Paul drives me nuts. We need the ball in his hands more. Plus some rotation issues not closing with Tyler vs the Suns was mind boggling. Plus if he doesnt play Lance at least 10 mpg to start at and gradualy increase will make me a little mad. Lance is pretty smas mouth and he fits with the play style we are trying to play.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 04:37 PM
I liked how when Vogel first took over, nearly every play was to get Roy the ball.

He had DC slowing down the offense to assist the ball more for better shots.

I still like him and even when we named him the interim, I wanted to see what he's gonna do for us for the rest of the season.

What Bird wants from him is to get this team to the playoffs and win at least 1 game.

The players like him and enjoyed working with him prior to being named the head coach. He's a good coach for this team and I've been pretty happy with what he's done for the players.

They really need to work on their defense and not slacking off. These players lack motivation from time to time.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 04:48 PM
That is my main concern. But also the way he doesnt call plays for Paul drives me nuts. We need the ball in his hands more. Plus some rotation issues not closing with Tyler vs the Suns was mind boggling. Plus if he doesnt play Lance at least 10 mpg to start at and gradualy increase will make me a little mad. Lance is pretty smas mouth and he fits with the play style we are trying to play.

Okay, Paul George is a rookie, and he has a standing still at the three point line problem. He needs to get more aggressive, and give the point guards a reason to give him the ball. Not on Vogel. Paul needs to learn how to move without the ball.

Lance..dude got tired after four minutes (actually, after two according to Lance) Let's chill on the ten minute and gradually increasing expectation. He's not ready for that. And Vogel's trying to get a job next year too, so he's trying to balance developing and winning.

Rotation issues, honestly I completely disagree there. Tyler came out and Josh went in for PnR and team defensive reasons. Yes, Josh didn't play his best there, but he's much better than Tyler. That and the fact that I'm guessing Vogel wanted the focal point of the offense to be Granger and Price at that moment, and Josh is..much more of a facilitator.

However, I might have changed BRush for Paul George. Both had solid games, but I think we had 5 shot clock violations and four of them were BRush's fault. (or something like that..that could be an exaggeration.)

Still, as I said, Vogel's very green. And he's done a very good job, all things considered, at putting the team in the best position to win. I may not agree with everything..no one is going to agree with everything a coach does, but there's always a reasonable and logical explanation for what he's doing.

Trader Joe
03-01-2011, 04:57 PM
P4E, we get you really like Paul George, but he's a rookie.

Even guys like Deron Williams were very much reigned in during their rookie year. It's just the way it is for the most part barring a few exceptions. I'm glad Paul isn't developing bad habits a la Brandon Jennings or Tyreke Evans who had way too high of a usage rate for their skill level last year and posted really inflated stats and now have a way inflated opinion of themselves.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 05:01 PM
Okay, Paul George is a rookie, and he has a standing still at the three point line problem. He needs to get more aggressive, and give the point guards a reason to give him the ball. Not on Vogel. Paul needs to learn how to move without the ball.

Lance..dude got tired after four minutes (actually, after two according to Lance) Let's chill on the ten minute and gradually increasing expectation. He's not ready for that. And Vogel's trying to get a job next year too, so he's trying to balance developing and winning.

Rotation issues, honestly I completely disagree there. Tyler came out and Josh went in for PnR and team defensive reasons. Yes, Josh didn't play his best there, but he's much better than Tyler. That and the fact that I'm guessing Vogel wanted the focal point of the offense to be Granger and Price at that moment, and Josh is..much more of a facilitator.

However, I might have changed BRush for Paul George. Both had solid games, but I think we had 5 shot clock violations and four of them were BRush's fault. (or something like that..that could be an exaggeration.)

Still, as I said, Vogel's very green. And he's done a very good job, all things considered, at putting the team in the best position to win. I may not agree with everything..no one is going to agree with everything a coach does, but there's always a reasonable and logical explanation for what he's doing.

Ya thats the problem call some plays for him to get him invloved in the offense. He has a great shot from mid-range and going to the hoop. So get him the ball where he is most effective. If you told Danny to stand in the corner the same thing would happen. Its a minor issue but I think he needs to be more invloved in the offense.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 05:08 PM
Ya thats the problem call some plays for him to get him invloved in the offense. He has a great shot from mid-range and going to the hoop. So get him the ball where he is most effective. If you told Danny to stand in the corner the same thing would happen. Its a minor issue but I think he needs to be more invloved in the offense.

A player needs to move in order to get in position to score, and he'll get the ball. In fact, I think now that Dun's injured, that should be his job..teaching PG how to move well without the ball.

Unless you want a PG iso offense. That's just got bad idea written all over it.

I'm with you on PG, really I am. I think he's got the potential to be special, and the mentality to actually achieve it. But an ISO offense is a bad offense. And PG is just a rookie, he's got a ton to learn.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 05:14 PM
A player needs to move in order to get in position to score, and he'll get the ball. In fact, I think now that Dun's injured, that should be his job..teaching PG how to move well without the ball.

Unless you want a PG iso offense. That's just got bad idea written all over it.

I'm with you on PG, really I am. I think he's got the potential to be special, and the mentality to actually achieve it. But an ISO offense is a bad offense. And PG is just a rookie, he's got a ton to learn.

Where did I say ISO?? I want PnR with him a little more often. Run him off screens for a mid rage J. He is shooting near 60% from inside the 3. But with the moving without the ball issue. Danny doesnt move well without the ball. Not many plaers move without the ball well.

Sookie
03-01-2011, 05:21 PM
Where did I say ISO?? I want PnR with him a little more often. Run him off screens for a mid rage J. He is shooting near 60% from inside the 3. But with the moving without the ball issue. Danny doesnt move well without the ball. Not many plaers move without the ball well.

Okay,

Well to be fair, in order to run him off screens, someone has to set a screen. Which our bigs suck at.

He's also going to not get a shot when he's using the PnR too. My guess is Hans will pull the same trick he pulls with AJ..aka leave early to get his own shot. (And I don't know that he's doing that on purpose. A lot of really energetic guys tend to rush a screen/pick. He's probably just antsy. But with Hans' lack of passing, the fact that this little mistake actually works "in his favor" is kind of funny.) It's hard to run a PnR with Foster, because teams know you aren't planning on passing it to Foster.

I'd suggest perhaps a 1-3 PnR with AJ and Paul, but Paul might not be strong enough for that.

pacer4ever
03-01-2011, 05:27 PM
Okay,

Well to be fair, in order to run him off screens, someone has to set a screen. Which our bigs suck at.

He's also going to not get a shot when he's using the PnR too. My guess is Hans will pull the same trick he pulls with AJ..aka leave early to get his own shot. (And I don't know that he's doing that on purpose. A lot of really energetic guys tend to rush a screen/pick. He's probably just antsy. But with Hans' lack of passing, the fact that this little mistake actually works "in his favor" is kind of funny.) It's hard to run a PnR with Foster, because teams know you aren't planning on passing it to Foster.

I'd suggest perhaps a 1-3 PnR with AJ and Paul, but Paul might not be strong enough for that.


Ya thats what pisses me off about Josh the guy cant set a screen to save his life. The other bigs suck also at it.

About the 1-3 PnR I say no like you said he is not strong enoght yet he will add 15 pds this summer and get a lot stronger his frame can add some weight. I suggest a 2-3 PnR with Danny Paul is a playmaker and will find the open man. He needs to improve his handles but the best way to learn from your mistakes. I understand he may struggle some at first but it would improve he guy has the vision of a point guard.

Trophy
03-01-2011, 05:38 PM
This team lacks a system and where offensive plays are drawn up including PnRs.

Vogel has been lenient on there being a strict system as he's said he's letting the players play how they want.

It's led to careless turnovers, and no one is stepping up their defense every game.

Aggression is also key with getting rebounds. There's no reason why Roy and the bigger guys should be letting small guards come in and get offensive rebounds.

This team needs motivation every game.

joeyd
03-01-2011, 06:09 PM
The feeling of newness will come back (at least to me) if we just start playing some perimeter defense and defend against 3-pointers, especially in the first quarter.

Oh, yeah, I'd like to see a game go by without a traveling call, shot clock violation, defensive 3 seconds, or lane violation. Most of these calls are coach-able and should not be happening.

gummy
03-01-2011, 08:20 PM
Vogel has been lenient on there being a strict system as he's said he's letting the players play how they want.



When/where did he say that?